Mother’s Shocking Testimony About Sword Linked to Brutal Murder

[00:00:00] Lannie McCulley: I'm Lannie McCulley. It's L-A-N-I-M-C-C-U-L-L-E-Y. [00:00:07] Speaker 2: Mr. Long, you may proceed. Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning, Ms. McCulley. Do you currently live in Santa Fe? [00:00:14] Lannie McCulley: Yes, I do. [00:00:15] Speaker 2: How long have you lived in Santa Fe? [00:00:20] Lannie McCulley: 20 years. [00:00:24] Speaker 2: And what's the highest level of education that you've completed? [00:00:28] Lannie McCulley: I have a bachelor's degree. [00:00:31] Speaker 2: Are you currently employed? [00:00:33] Lannie McCulley: Yes, I am. [00:00:35] Speaker 2: And do you have any children? [00:00:37] Lannie McCulley: Yes, I do. [00:00:38] Speaker 2: How many? [00:00:39] Lannie McCulley: One. [00:00:41] Speaker 2: What is that child's name? [00:00:43] Lannie McCulley: Kiara McCulley. [00:00:45] Speaker 2: How old is Kiara today? [00:00:51] Lannie McCulley: 23. [00:00:54] Speaker 2: And so back in 2022, was she 19? [00:01:00] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:01:02] Speaker 2: Did Kiara graduate high school? [00:01:04] Lannie McCulley: No, she did not. [00:01:06] Speaker 2: What's the highest grade that Kiara completed? [00:01:09] Lannie McCulley: 10th grade. [00:01:12] Speaker 2: In 2022, where was Kiara living? [00:01:16] Lannie McCulley: At my house. [00:01:21] Speaker 2: And I want to talk a little bit about your house. About how many bedrooms does your house have? [00:01:28] Lannie McCulley: It's two bedrooms. [00:01:30] Speaker 2: All right. And is there a garage? [00:01:32] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:01:33] Speaker 2: And is that garage attached or detached? [00:01:36] Lannie McCulley: It would be detached. [00:01:37] Speaker ?: All right. [00:01:38] Speaker 2: And in 2022, was Kiara living inside the main house or in a detached garage? [00:01:46] Lannie McCulley: She was staying in the detached garage. [00:01:56] Speaker 2: Is that kind of where all of her stuff was? [00:02:00] Lannie McCulley: Pretty much, yeah. [00:02:01] Speaker 2: Okay. Did that garage have a bathroom? [00:02:06] Lannie McCulley: No. [00:02:06] Speaker 2: Did the garage have a kitchen? [00:02:08] Lannie McCulley: No. No. [00:02:15] Speaker 2: As of October 29th, 2022, was there anyone else living with you and Kiara? [00:02:21] Lannie McCulley: Isaac Apodaca was. [00:02:27] Speaker 2: And if Isaac Apodaca or Kiara needed to, say, use the bathroom, where would they go? [00:02:34] Lannie McCulley: They would come into the house. [00:02:36] Speaker 2: Okay. And if they needed to prepare some food or cook, anything like that, where would they go? [00:02:42] Lannie McCulley: They would come into the house. [00:02:45] Speaker 2: And if they needed to shower, where would they go? [00:02:51] Lannie McCulley: Into the house. [00:03:00] Speaker 2: How would someone get into the detached garage? [00:03:06] Lannie McCulley: There's multiple points of entry to the backyard. We have a front gate. We have the back gate. And then also through the house. [00:03:14] Speaker 2: Okay. And the door between the house and the garage, so I guess maybe the back door? [00:03:28] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:03:28] Speaker 2: Was that door normally kept locked? [00:03:31] Lannie McCulley: Only during the night. It was usually open during the day as long as someone was home. [00:03:36] Speaker 2: Okay. And then what about the door into the garage from the backyard? Was that door normally locked or unlocked? [00:03:46] Lannie McCulley: It was normally unlocked as long as the kids were in the garage. [00:03:49] Speaker 2: Okay. And if Isaac Apodaca or Kiara needed to get inside the house and that door was locked, how would they do that? [00:04:02] Lannie McCulley: They both had keys. [00:04:09] Speaker 2: I want to talk a little bit about Isaac Apodaca, okay? [00:04:13] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:04:14] Speaker 2: How did you know Isaac Apodaca? [00:04:16] Lannie McCulley: I met him through my daughter. [00:04:19] Speaker 2: Okay. And was he Kiara's boyfriend? [00:04:24] Lannie McCulley: Off and on, yes. [00:04:26] Speaker 2: Okay. Were they ever engaged to be married? [00:04:28] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:04:31] Speaker 2: Do you remember how old Isaac Apodaca was back in 2022? [00:04:42] Lannie McCulley: I think he was 21, 22. [00:04:49] Speaker 2: Is Isaac Apodaca in the courtroom today? [00:04:52] Lannie McCulley: Yes, he is. [00:04:54] Speaker 2: And would you describe something that he's wearing? [00:04:57] Lannie McCulley: He's wearing a blue suit with a blue tie. [00:05:01] Speaker 2: Prior to October 29, 2022, how long had you known Isaac Apodaca? [00:05:09] Lannie McCulley: About three years. [00:05:16] Speaker 2: And how did he come to live with you? [00:05:21] Lannie McCulley: My daughter brought him over to stay the weekend because he had been kicked out of his house. [00:05:31] Speaker 2: And at any point when he was living there, did you ever try to kick him out or evict him? [00:05:36] Lannie McCulley: Yes, I did. [00:05:39] Speaker 2: And what was Kiara's reaction when you did that? [00:05:44] Lannie McCulley: She would get upset and threaten to live on the streets with him. [00:05:48] Speaker 2: And at any point did you ever refer to Isaac Apodaca as your son or your son-in-law or your soon-to-be son-in-law? [00:06:07] Lannie McCulley: Yes, I did. [00:06:11] Speaker 2: I want to ask you a little bit about Isaac Apodaca and Kiara's relationship, okay? [00:06:17] Lannie McCulley: Okay. [00:06:19] Speaker 2: Are you able to describe their relationship? [00:06:25] Lannie McCulley: I would call it rocky. [00:06:27] Speaker 2: Okay. And prior to October 29, 2022, how long had they been dating? [00:06:37] Lannie McCulley: That's difficult to say. It was on again, off again. So I can't say that there was a firm timeline. [00:06:45] Speaker 2: Okay. So I guess if we were talking about, we don't have a firm timeline, but if we have a beginning point. [00:06:54] Lannie McCulley: Maybe two years. [00:06:58] Speaker 2: And do you know, did Isaac Apodaca and Kiara ever get in arguments? [00:07:05] Lannie McCulley: They disagreed, yeah. [00:07:07] Speaker 2: Do you know if any of those arguments ever got physical? [00:07:10] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:07:13] Speaker 2: Do you know if the police were ever involved in any of those arguments? [00:07:17] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:07:22] Speaker 2: And do you remember an incident on April 4, 2022, when the police were involved? [00:07:31] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:07:38] Speaker 2: And why do you remember the incident from April 4, 2022? [00:07:43] Lannie McCulley: I had to take my daughter to the ER. [00:07:50] Speaker 2: And why did you have to take her to the ER? [00:07:55] Lannie McCulley: She was bruised from top to bottom, and she had a broken thumb. [00:08:07] Speaker 2: Do you know why that argument occurred on April 4, 2022? [00:08:13] Lannie McCulley: I don't know what the argument was about, no. [00:08:17] Speaker 2: Do you know if a police report was filed about that incident? [00:08:21] Lannie McCulley: Yes. Kiara and I filed one with the police while we were at the hospital. [00:08:25] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:08:28] Speaker 2: Did Isaac Apodaca and Kiara's relationship appear to change after April 4, 2022? [00:08:36] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:08:40] Speaker 2: And do you know if Kiara followed through with testifying against Isaac Apodaca, or did she drop the charges? [00:08:54] Lannie McCulley: She did not personally drop the charges. She did not talk to the police when they called because he was in the room with her. [00:09:09] Speaker 2: Prior to October 29, 2022, had Kiara ever held a job? [00:09:16] Lannie McCulley: She had a job at Route 21, I want to say, for about a month. [00:09:21] Speaker 2: Okay. And was that her only job ever? [00:09:25] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:09:28] Speaker 2: And you said she had that for about a month? [00:09:30] Lannie McCulley: About a month, yes. [00:09:31] Speaker 2: Did she quit? Was she fired? [00:09:35] Lannie McCulley: My understanding was she was let go. [00:09:37] Speaker 2: Okay. And so, I guess, how did Kiara pay for anything? I mean, did she have a cell phone? [00:09:51] Lannie McCulley: I paid for all of her housing utilities, her cell phone. Isaac took over her cell phone payments at one point. Okay. But for the most part, I paid for everything that she needed. [00:10:04] Speaker 2: Okay. So, does that include, you know, clothes, toothbrushes, toothpaste, that type of stuff? [00:10:13] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:10:13] Speaker 2: Okay. And prior to October 29, 2022, do you know if Isaac worked? [00:10:27] Lannie McCulley: Off and on, yes. [00:10:34] Speaker 2: Are you aware of any other ways in which your daughter, Kiara, made money? [00:10:41] Lannie McCulley: She was prostituting. [00:10:48] Speaker 3: Maybe approach her? [00:10:49] Speaker 4: Yes. [00:10:53] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. [00:11:34] Speaker 2: You just stated that Kiara was prostituting. How do you know that Kiara was prostituting? [00:11:50] Lannie McCulley: I found out because the gentleman was walking onto my property, and I asked her who he was, and she explained it to me. [00:11:57] Speaker 3: Objection, Your Honor, does it. [00:12:04] Speaker 4: Sustained. Ladies and gentlemen, disregard the last answer. [00:12:13] Speaker 2: Did you ever speak with Isaac Apodaca about Kiara's outside work? [00:12:24] Lannie McCulley: I spoke with both Isaac and Kiara about it. [00:12:27] Speaker 2: Okay. And in your conversation with Isaac Apodaca and Kiara, what did you tell them? [00:12:36] Lannie McCulley: It was to end immediately. [00:12:39] Speaker 2: And when you say it was to end immediately, what do you mean? [00:12:42] Lannie McCulley: The prostitution. [00:12:44] Speaker 2: Okay. [00:12:45] Speaker 5: Judge, I would give you my objection to this whole line of questioning now. [00:12:51] Speaker 4: Overruled? [00:12:52] Speaker 5: Yes. [00:12:57] Speaker ?: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:15:34] Speaker 4: Thank you. [00:16:04] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:16:34] Speaker 2: Do you know if your daughter Kiara and Isaac Apodaca spent money on any extra stuff? [00:16:49] Lannie McCulley: Yes, they did. [00:16:50] Speaker 2: What did they spend money on? [00:16:52] Lannie McCulley: Perfume, clothing, a sword, weaponry, and models. And when you say models, Isaac used to put together and collect these models called Gundam. It's from a comic. [00:17:20] Speaker 2: Okay. And do you know, do you know how much those models cost? [00:17:31] Lannie McCulley: The ones I priced were anywhere from $50 to $2,500. [00:17:33] Speaker 2: I want to ask you about someone by the name of Grace. I want to ask you about someone by the name of Grace. [00:17:50] Lannie McCulley: Grace Jennings was a friend of mine. Grace Jennings was a friend of my daughter's. [00:17:53] Speaker 2: Grace Jennings was a friend of my daughter's. And did you ever meet Grace Jennings? [00:17:59] Lannie McCulley: Yes, I did. [00:18:00] Speaker 2: Do you know how long Kiara and Ms. Jennings had known each other? [00:18:06] Lannie McCulley: Um, my daughter was probably in first or second grade when they first met. [00:18:13] Speaker 2: Okay, so they they'd known each other for a while then. [00:18:15] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:18:16] Speaker 2: And is it safe to say that they had kind of grown up together? [00:18:20] Lannie McCulley: Yeah. [00:18:22] Speaker 2: Do you know if Ms. Jennings and Kiara were still friends on October 29th, 2022? [00:18:33] Lannie McCulley: No, they were not. [00:18:36] Speaker 2: How would you describe Grace Jennings and Kiara's relationship? [00:18:48] Lannie McCulley: Difficult. [00:18:53] Speaker 2: And do you know if prior to October 29th, 2022, had Ms. Jennings ever been over to your house? [00:19:02] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:19:03] Speaker 2: And you had you seen her over there? [00:19:05] Lannie McCulley: Um, it had been years, but yeah, she had she had stayed at our house several times, along with her younger sister. [00:19:19] Speaker 2: Back in October 29th of 2022, do you know if Kiara had a working cell phone? [00:19:28] Lannie McCulley: Yes, she did. [00:19:30] Speaker 2: And I realize that this is a few years ago, but do you recall what her phone number was? No. How about do you, do you remember what kind of cell phone it was? [00:19:47] Lannie McCulley: I can't remember if at that time Isaac was paying for her phone or if I was, if I was paying for it, it would have been a T-Mobile phone. If he was paying for it, it would have been my horizon. [00:19:57] Speaker 2: Okay. Do you know if it was, um, like an Apple iPhone or something else? [00:20:06] Lannie McCulley: No, it would have been, um, Android. [00:20:08] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:20:14] Speaker 2: How about Isaac Apodaca? Do you know if in October of 2022, did he have a working cell phone? [00:20:23] Lannie McCulley: I know he had a phone. I don't know, really recall whether or not it was connected. [00:20:27] Speaker 2: Okay. Do you remember his phone number? [00:20:35] Lannie McCulley: No. I only ever talked to him in Messenger. [00:20:39] Speaker 2: Do you remember what kind of phone he had? [00:20:41] Lannie McCulley: Was it? He would have had a Verizon. That's the company he went with, but I don't know what the type of phone would have been. [00:20:47] Speaker 2: So you don't know if it was an Apple or an Android? [00:20:50] Lannie McCulley: No. [00:20:52] Speaker 2: At your house, did you have Wi-Fi at your house? [00:21:08] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:21:08] Speaker 2: Okay. And do you know if Isaac and Kiara used the Wi-Fi at your house? [00:21:13] Lannie McCulley: Yes, they did. [00:21:17] Speaker 2: Now, back in October 29th of 2022, what was your address? [00:21:25] Lannie McCulley: 5941 Jaguar Drive, Santa Fe. [00:21:33] Speaker 2: So I want to kind of take you back to October 28th, 2022. Do you know where you were during the evening of October 28th, 2022? [00:21:50] Lannie McCulley: I was at home. [00:21:52] Speaker 2: Okay. And back in 2022, were you employed? [00:21:59] Lannie McCulley: Yes, I was. [00:22:00] Speaker 2: And back in 2022, did you go into an office or did you work from home? [00:22:06] Lannie McCulley: For the most part, I worked at home. [00:22:07] Speaker 2: Was there anything going on in the world that most of us probably remember and are trying hard to forget? [00:22:16] Lannie McCulley: The pandemic. Okay. [00:22:22] Speaker 2: Did you go to bed on October 28th, 2022? [00:22:25] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:22:26] Speaker 2: And do you remember what time you went to bed? [00:22:30] Lannie McCulley: Probably between 10 and 11, to my standard. [00:22:40] Speaker 2: Now, Ms. McCauley, knowing what you know now, did anything stand out from October 28th, 2022? [00:22:50] Lannie McCulley: My daughter never came into the house on October 28th. [00:22:58] Speaker 2: And why does that stand out to you? [00:23:04] Lannie McCulley: Well, because she would have needed to come into the house to go to the bathroom. [00:23:09] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:23:09] Lannie McCulley: And, you know, that day Isaac made them dinner, which was rare and far between. [00:23:16] Speaker 3: Okay. That's your honor. You're going to say like a foundation. I mean, just here's a, I don't know. [00:23:28] Speaker 4: Overruled. [00:23:34] Speaker 2: He said that Isaac made them dinner. When Isaac made them dinner, did you talk to Isaac? [00:23:44] Lannie McCulley: I'm sure I did, but I don't recall what we discussed. [00:23:47] Speaker 2: Did Isaac Apodaca tell you why he was making them dinner? [00:23:58] Lannie McCulley: I don't recall. I don't recall. [00:24:08] Speaker 2: Do you remember if you asked Mr. Isaac Apodaca why Kiara didn't come inside? [00:24:16] Lannie McCulley: He said she wasn't feeling well. [00:24:27] Speaker 2: And after he said that Kiara was not feeling well, what if anything happened after that? [00:24:40] Lannie McCulley: He took, he took her dinner. [00:24:42] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:24:46] Lannie McCulley: He did come back into the house later and asked for more food. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't know. [00:24:52] Speaker 2: And, um, did, did you cook yourself dinner that night? [00:24:55] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:24:55] Speaker 2: Okay. And, uh, I'm not going to ask you if you remember what you had to eat, but, um, did Isaac Apodaca come back inside the house after you cooked your dinner? [00:25:05] Lannie McCulley: Yes, he did. [00:25:06] Speaker 2: Okay. And did you talk with Isaac Apodaca at that point? [00:25:10] Lannie McCulley: He just mentioned they needed more food. [00:25:12] Speaker 2: Okay. And did he, did he say why he needed more food? [00:25:20] Lannie McCulley: They were still hungry. He didn't make enough. [00:25:22] Speaker 2: Okay. Did, did you think that that was, that was unusual? [00:25:28] Lannie McCulley: I didn't think anything of it, no. [00:25:41] Speaker 2: And, uh, when, uh, Mr. Isaac Apodaca came back inside the house and said that they needed more food, um, did he make the food or did you make the food? [00:25:53] Lannie McCulley: I made the food. [00:25:54] Speaker 2: Okay. And after you made the food, what, if anything, did you do with that? [00:25:59] Lannie McCulley: I took it out to the garage. [00:26:00] Speaker 2: Okay. And when you took it out to the garage, uh, did you go through the back door? [00:26:07] Lannie McCulley: I did. [00:26:08] Speaker 2: Okay. And when you went to the garage, um, did you, did you just open the door or did you knock? [00:26:17] Lannie McCulley: I knocked. [00:26:17] Speaker 2: Okay. And do you know who answered? [00:26:21] Lannie McCulley: Isaac did. [00:26:22] Speaker 2: Okay. Did you see Kiara in the garage? [00:26:28] Lannie McCulley: She was sitting on the bed. [00:26:30] Speaker 2: Okay. Did you see anyone else in the garage? [00:26:32] Lannie McCulley: No, I did not. [00:26:38] Speaker 2: Did you go inside of the garage? [00:26:40] Lannie McCulley: No. [00:26:42] Speaker 2: Do you remember where Isaac was? [00:26:45] Lannie McCulley: He was in the doorway. [00:26:48] Speaker 2: Okay. Um, could you see, could you see into the garage past him? [00:26:53] Lannie McCulley: Just barely enough to know where my daughter was. [00:26:55] Speaker 2: Okay. Now, you stated that you went to bed between 10 and 11. Is that correct? [00:27:12] Lannie McCulley: Most likely, yes. [00:27:13] Speaker 2: Okay. Did you have any reason to suspect that anyone was, anyone else was in, in your house or in the garage? [00:27:20] Lannie McCulley: No, I did not. [00:27:27] Speaker 2: Okay. So I want to fast forward to October 29th, 2022. Do you know about what time you woke up? [00:27:38] Lannie McCulley: Probably between 6 and 6.30. [00:27:40] Speaker 2: Okay. Is there any routine that you, you handle when you wake up in the mornings? [00:27:53] Lannie McCulley: Um, at the time I had three dogs. So letting the dogs out in the backyard was part of it. [00:28:01] Speaker 2: And you said that you let them out into the backyard? Yes. And did the dogs bark, sniff around, any, anything out of the, the ordinary? [00:28:14] Lannie McCulley: No. [00:28:16] Speaker 2: After you let the dogs out, um, what did you do? [00:28:23] Lannie McCulley: Um, I started my Saturday, Saturday mornings. I, I do chores around the house. [00:28:30] Speaker 2: And what type of, what types of chores? [00:28:33] Lannie McCulley: Dishes, laundry, clean the bathroom. That's where I think. [00:28:41] Speaker 2: At any point on the morning of October 29th, 2022, did you see Isaac Apodaca? [00:28:48] Lannie McCulley: Yes, he came into the house. [00:28:50] Speaker 2: Okay. And when he came into the house, do you know what he did? [00:28:54] Lannie McCulley: Um, he went to the bathroom and then he came out and he told me that he did not have to start work that day. He was supposed to start a new job. But he, he said he did not need to start that job that day. [00:29:06] Speaker 2: Okay. Did he tell you why he didn't need to start the job that day? [00:29:11] Lannie McCulley: Um, he said that the boss had called him and told him he could start on Monday. [00:29:17] Speaker 2: Do you know where that, that new job was supposed to be? [00:29:20] Lannie McCulley: It was a kiosk at the mall. [00:29:34] Speaker 2: Did Mr. Isaac Apodaca do anything else while he was inside the house? [00:29:40] Lannie McCulley: Um, he helped me put a rug into the washing machine. [00:29:43] Speaker 2: Okay. And why did, why did he help you put a rug into the washing machine? [00:29:47] Lannie McCulley: Because I couldn't lift it. And I asked for his help. [00:29:50] Speaker 2: Um, so was it, was it big, was it heavy, was it big and heavy? [00:29:56] Lannie McCulley: Big and heavy and wet. [00:29:57] Speaker 2: Okay. You said it was wet. Why was it wet? [00:30:02] Lannie McCulley: I had a diabetic dog who peed on it. [00:30:16] Speaker 2: And where, where were you inside of your house when you, when you saw Mr. Isaac Apodaca? [00:30:24] Lannie McCulley: Um, I was standing in the hallway and he was in the hallway. [00:30:27] Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Did Isaac Apodaca mention anything else about his job and why he didn't have to start that day? [00:30:52] Lannie McCulley: There's something about being sick? [00:30:56] Speaker 2: Was, was Isaac Apodaca the sick one or? [00:31:01] Lannie McCulley: Um, the way he made it sound was he was sick, but as far as I knew he was not. Okay. [00:31:13] Speaker 3: Mr. Chair, your honor. Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? [00:31:14] Speaker ?: Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? [00:31:14] Speaker 4: Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? [00:31:16] Speaker ?: Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? [00:31:18] Speaker 2: Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? [00:31:19] Speaker ?: Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? [00:31:19] Speaker 2: Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? Mr. Chair, your honor, can you vote? Mr. Chair, how long Isaac Apodaca was inside of the house that morning? [00:31:25] Lannie McCulley: Mr. Chair, I would say probably between 10 and 15 minutes. [00:31:30] Speaker 2: Mr. Chair, and when he left the main house, um, which door did he leave from? [00:31:41] Lannie McCulley: Mr. Chair, he used the back door, went to the garage. [00:31:44] Speaker 2: Mr. Chair, and was the back door kind of the standard door that Kiara and Isaac Apodaca would enter and exit through? [00:32:03] Lannie McCulley: Ms. Yes. [00:32:05] Speaker 2: Mr. Chair, on October 29, 2022, did you see your daughter Kiara at all? [00:32:13] Lannie McCulley: Ms. Yes, she came in and went to take a shower. [00:32:17] Speaker 2: Mr. Chair, did you say anything to Kiara when you saw her? Ms. I did. Mr. Chair, what did you say to her? [00:32:25] Lannie McCulley: Ms. I told her, "It's alive!" because she gets a blast in the house. Mr. Chair, I tease her all the time. [00:32:34] Speaker 2: Mr. Chair, and about how long after you saw Isaac Apodaca and he left, was it before Kiara came inside? [00:32:44] Speaker ?: Ms. I don't really recall. Mr. Chair, it's probably half an hour or so. Mr. Chair, and did your daughter take a shower? Ms. Yes, she did. [00:32:44] Speaker 2: Mr. Chair, do you know about how long that shower lasted? [00:32:48] Speaker ?: Ms. 20 minutes, 30 minutes. Ms. It wasn't that long. Ms. Yes, she did. Mr. Chair, do you know about how long that shower lasted? Ms. 20 minutes, 30 minutes. It wasn't that long. Mr. Chair, I don't really recall. [00:32:50] Lannie McCulley: Ms. I don't really recall. It was probably half an hour or so. Mr. Chair, and did your daughter take a shower? [00:33:06] Speaker 2: Ms. Yes, she did. Mr. Chair, do you know about how long that shower lasted? [00:33:08] Lannie McCulley: Ms. 20 minutes, 30 minutes. Ms. It wasn't that long. [00:33:10] Speaker ?: Mr. Chair, do you remember about what time that was? Ms. Mid-morning. I don't really know. Mr. Chair, do you remember about what time that was? [00:33:10] Speaker 2: Ms. Mid-morning. Ms. Okay. [00:33:12] Speaker ?: Mr. Chair, do you remember about how long that shower lasted? [00:33:13] Lannie McCulley: Ms. 20 minutes, 30 minutes? It wasn't that long. [00:33:15] Speaker 2: Mr. Chair, do you remember about what time that was? [00:33:28] Lannie McCulley: Ms. Mid-morning. I don't really know. Mr. Chair, do you remember about what time that was? [00:33:32] Speaker ?: Ms. Mid-morning. I don't really know. Mr. Chair, do you remember about what time that was? Ms. Mid-morning. I don't really know. Mr. Chair, do you remember about what time that was? [00:33:38] Speaker 2: Ms. Mid-morning. When Kiara came inside the house to take a shower, do you remember what she was wearing? Ms. Mid-morning. [00:33:45] Lannie McCulley: Ms. Mid-morning. [00:33:46] Speaker ?: Ms. Mid-morning. Ms. Mid-morning. Mr. Chair, do you remember what she was wearing? Ms. Mid-morning. Ms. Mid-morning. Mr. Chair, do you remember what she was wearing? Ms. Mid-morning. Ms. Mid-morning. [00:33:54] Speaker 2: Mr. Chair, do you remember what she was wearing? Ms. Mid-morning. Ms. Mid-morning. Ms. Mid-morning. [00:33:58] Lannie McCulley: Ms. Mid-morning. When Kiara got out of the shower, did you see her? [00:34:00] Speaker ?: Ms. Mid-morning. Ms. Mid-morning. Ms. Mid-morning. [00:34:03] Lannie McCulley: when you saw her after the shower is there anything that that stands out to you um she had washcloths in her hand and she went straight out to the garage okay so when you say that she had washcloths in her hand what do you mean by that she had um little washcloths that were rolled up and they were in her hands like that okay [00:34:33] Speaker 2: um so since everything is kind of audio recorded um when you say little washcloths about how maybe how many inches by how many inches were those washcloths four by four okay so four by four washcloths and did she have one in each hand yes okay and do you know if those washcloths were were wet or dry i couldn't tell though from the way she was holding them okay and the way that she was holding them i think um you've you've demonstrated but let's go ahead and kind of describe that a little bit so they were rolled in the palm of her hand and then she was clasping it um you could see the ends poking out from either side of her palm okay and so were were her hands clenched yes and were they sort of being held out in the front of her were they on the side of her at where where were her arms um she was [00:35:32] Lannie McCulley: headed for the door so she was headed for the door so they kind of in front of her so she could open the door okay [00:35:36] Speaker ?: okay [00:35:36] Speaker 2: and did you find that to be unusual at all i did it's a strange place to have to washcloths so you said that she was um approaching the door and getting ready to open the door do you mean that the the back door of the back door yes okay and did she leave the main house she did she went to the garage okay and do you know about how long she was in the garage [00:36:13] Lannie McCulley: not long at all she came running back immediately okay so she um she went out to the garage and then came running back to the house immediately yes okay [00:36:24] Speaker 2: after kiara came running back to the house what if anything happened um she came running in she she said mom there's i'm sorry um so did did any event happen after [00:36:42] Lannie McCulley: after kiara came running back yes what event happened um she she ran in so without saying what she said what did you see she ran in and got my attention i was turning to talk to her and the police officers were um coming through the backyard um they started kicking on the door and i went to the door and i said please don't break my house and i said please don't break my [00:37:12] Speaker 2: my house and i unlocked the door so they could come in okay once those police officers arrived um without saying anything that you heard what was what was your general reaction at first my first reaction was that they were there to look for isaac okay and at some point did did your daughter go into handcuffs yes she did okay and at some point did you learn that your house was a crime scene yes i did i want to ask you a little bit about a purchase from amazon okay are you aware of a sword being purchased from amazon sometime before [00:38:11] Lannie McCulley: october 29th 2022 yes and did you ever did you ever see kiara with a sword a couple days before october 29th 2022 yes we received the package she opened it in front of me okay and do you remember [00:38:33] Speaker 2: what day that was it was it was delivered to you um or to your house and so uh did did the delivery just leave the package on the front doorstep or someplace like that yes they left it on the front door okay and did you see that [00:38:59] Lannie McCulley: yes i believe they rang the doorbell that morning okay and then was that package opened up in front of you yes and who opened up that package do you know who bought the sword i don't know who paid for it i know it was on kiara's amazon account okay [00:39:27] Speaker 2: and how do you know that it was on kiara's amazon account it was addressed to her okay and do you know that kiara had had had an amazon account yes okay after the the package was opened by kiara and isaac abedaka [00:39:54] Lannie McCulley: um did anyone touch the sword did anyone handle the sword uh kiara opened it and showed it to me i touched the sword isaac touched the sword we all did okay and [00:40:09] Speaker 2: do you have any do you have any background in swords i do okay and what is that background in swords [00:40:17] Lannie McCulley: i used to be a member of the society for creative anachronism i used to fight with the swords that we [00:40:25] Speaker 2: used there okay um what is the society for creative anachronism it's a medieval reenactment group [00:40:31] Lannie McCulley: okay and um what does what does the society do um well there's a lot of things but um they practice heraldry uh sword fighting um archery okay and so is it safe to say that um you've handled swords before um i don't have a lot of live swords those came later the society for credit creative anachronism actually uses what's called rattan it's a type of bamboo grass that they use for their [00:41:07] Speaker 2: swords okay now based on your your experience and your um your past with uh the society are swords dangerous absolutely okay and can they cut people yes they can did you have any any [00:41:30] Lannie McCulley: hesitation at all about kiara having this sword yes but not when it comes to people it was more about leaving it out of the scabbard and possibly having one of the pets get hurt okay and uh you [00:41:46] Speaker 2: just mentioned the term that um i'm going to ask you to talk a little bit about you i think you said [00:41:49] Lannie McCulley: scabbard scabbard and what is that scabbard is the sheath that the sword goes into okay [00:41:56] Speaker 2: um that's scabbard is sort of the official term yes okay thank you now i'm going to ask you a question i want you to answer it with either a yes or a no okay so no no sort of explanation right okay do you know if kiara would ever access isaac's phone or facebook accounts no no you don't know or yes you do know no she would not okay prior to october 29th 2022 when was the last time you saw grace [00:42:55] Lannie McCulley: it was a couple years prior i want to say 2020 [00:43:03] Speaker 2: now you testified that um kiara she did she complete the 10th grade yes okay and do you did she get a ged i take that back she finished the first semester of 10th grade okay so she did not complete the 10th grade so she did not complete 10th grade so it was the last grade that she actually completed was that um ninth grade would have been ninth grade okay and if you had to describe your daughter how would you describe her [00:43:45] Lannie McCulley: i always thought of her as a sweet person okay um very caring um i'm sorry i can't do that i'm sorry oh no take your time please um she was very pet oriented she really liked the pets and animals she cared a lot about them i think she was very easily persuaded into doing things that she otherwise wouldn't um but she would also have um moments when she would try to stand up for herself but i don't know that she was good at it okay she's very much a teenager [00:44:46] Speaker 2: and you stated that back in 2022 she was 19 correct yes your honor may i have a moment yes so i want to i want to clarify a few things um there was the the door from the backyard into the garage correct yes and then the the main big door the big garage door that maybe a car might go in and out of did that door work the vehicle door was not functional okay okay do you know if i don't know if kiarra had a bank account or a savings account or anything like that yes she did yes she did and do you know if anyone else had access to those accounts i did you know if anyone else had access to those accounts in theory no in reality i believe isaac didn't okay okay okay so so so did you ever did you ever did you ever text or communicate with isaac apodaca via cell phone yes okay when you would text with isaac apodaca was there a certain app or application that the two of you would use we use facebook messenger ms mccauley i want to go back to the the april 4th 2022 incident um so we know that uh you stated that kiara did not did not talk to the police when they called her [00:47:54] Lannie McCulley: correct [00:47:56] Speaker 2: were you in the room when she didn't she didn't answer the phone or she didn't talk to them [00:48:00] Lannie McCulley: I believe so, yes. [00:48:30] Speaker 2: Ms. McCauley, my next question is going to be a little sensitive. Do you know if your daughter was ever sexually assaulted? [00:48:42] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:48:45] Speaker 4: Mr. Long, you may continue. [00:48:56] Speaker 2: Thank you. So, Ms. McCauley, without saying what you heard, I'm going to ask if you did anything, did you follow up, did you go anyplace, did you do anything that made you believe that Kiara had been sexually assaulted? [00:49:18] Lannie McCulley: I took her to the ER for a rape kit. [00:49:22] Speaker 2: And just to clarify, do you know, or was it -- it wasn't Isaac Apodaca that had allegedly sexually assaulted your daughter, was it? [00:49:37] Lannie McCulley: No. [00:49:39] Speaker 2: So, I want to go back to the garage door. And I'm talking the working, the operating door, the one from the backyard into the garage. [00:49:57] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:49:58] Speaker 2: Could you lock that door without a key? [00:50:04] Lannie McCulley: Ms. You could lock the handle, but not the deadbolt. Okay. [00:50:09] Speaker 2: So, were there -- were there then two locks on that door? Ms. Yes. Okay. So, a handle lock and then a separate deadbolt lock. Is that correct? Ms. Yes. Okay. And deadbolts are pretty straightforward. You've got to have a key. Is that correct? Ms. Yes. Okay. But the handle, you could actually lock from the inside. Is that correct? Objection or leading? [00:50:36] Lannie McCulley: Ms. You can lock both of them from the interior. Okay. Okay. Ms. You can only lock the handle from the exterior without a key. [00:50:45] Speaker 3: Okay. Thank you. [00:50:47] Speaker 4: It was confusing answer. Anybody -- objections sustainably ask the question. [00:50:59] Speaker 2: How would you -- how would you lock the handle? [00:51:03] Lannie McCulley: Ms. Usually we would lock it and just move the door shut. [00:51:07] Speaker 2: Okay. Could it also be locked with a key? Ms. Yes. Okay. And how would you lock the deadbolt? Ms. With a key. Okay. And it could -- could it only be locked with a key? Ms. Correct. Yes. From the outside? Ms. Correct. Okay. But could -- [00:51:25] Speaker ?: Hold on. The court's going to ask a question. [00:51:27] Speaker 2: Could both locks be opened with the same key? [00:51:28] Speaker 4: Ms. Yes. I know. I know. I know. I know. Thank you. [00:51:34] Lannie McCulley: Thank you. [00:51:35] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:51:37] Lannie McCulley: Thank you. [00:51:38] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. [00:52:07] Speaker 2: Ms. McCauley, when you took Kiara to the emergency room for the sexual assault kit, do you remember when -- what year that was? [00:52:25] Lannie McCulley: Ms. It was Halloween 2021. Okay. [00:52:29] Speaker 2: And was that about a year before the incident that we're here for today? Ms. Yes. Okay. And at that point, do you know if Kiara and Isaac Apodaca were dating? Ms. I'm not sure. [00:52:47] Speaker ?: Okay. I'm not sure. You're at that moment. Okay. I asked you earlier and -- Hold on, Mr. Long, before we go back into -- just for questioning, we need to take a short break. Okay. I think we'll go ahead and take our morning break right now, ladies and gentlemen, for about 10-15 minutes. [00:52:55] Lannie McCulley: And then we'll come back and continue with this witness on the stand. Ms. McCauley, I just have -- I'm not sure. I'm not sure. [00:52:58] Speaker ?: Okay. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. You're at that moment. Okay. [00:53:03] Speaker 2: I asked you earlier and -- Hold on, Mr. Long, before we go back into just for questioning, we need to take a short break. [00:53:08] Speaker 4: Okay. I think we'll go ahead and take our morning break right now, ladies and gentlemen, for about 10-15 minutes, and then we'll come back and continue with this witness on the stand. [00:53:20] Speaker 2: Ms. McCauley, I just have a few more questions for you, all right? Earlier, you described Isaac Apodaca and Kiara's relationship as "Rocky." Did -- one of them -- was one of them dominant in the relationship? [00:53:49] Lannie McCulley: Ms. Yes. [00:53:50] Speaker 2: Give me more time. [00:53:51] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [00:53:52] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:55:49] Speaker 2: Ms. McCauley, are you afraid of Isaac Apodaca? [00:56:14] Lannie McCulley: Ms. McCauley: I was only afraid of him once. [00:56:20] Speaker 2: And do you remember the date? [00:56:23] Lannie McCulley: Ms. McCauley: April 4, 2022. [00:56:25] Speaker ?: I pass the witness. [00:56:27] Speaker 2: Can you approach again, Your Honor? [00:56:30] Speaker 4: Come on up. [00:56:44] Speaker ?: Ms. McCauley: I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to come back to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. [00:57:55] Speaker 4: The next day is the next day. [00:57:59] Speaker ?: I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. [00:58:30] Speaker 5: I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. [00:58:36] Speaker ?: I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. [00:58:41] Speaker 5: Now, if we go back to that day that you were discussing with Mr. Long on the 29th of October 2022, you're not sure whether the door was locked or unlocked on that particular day, correct? [00:58:57] Lannie McCulley: What day? [00:59:01] Speaker 5: On the date of the incident, the alleged incident, the morning of October. Well, during the day on October 29th, 2022. [00:59:10] Lannie McCulley: It was morning. And are you talking about the garage door or my back door? [00:59:15] Speaker 5: The garage door. [00:59:16] Lannie McCulley: I have no idea. I never went out there. [00:59:18] Speaker 5: Okay. You say something about Mr. Abedaga being kicked out of his house. You didn't personally observe him ever being kicked out of the house, correct? [00:59:28] Lannie McCulley: No, I did not. [00:59:29] Speaker 5: Okay. You stated that there was an incident with a broken thumb that Kiera had, right, with Mr. Abedaga? [00:59:43] Lannie McCulley: April 4th, 2022. [00:59:46] Speaker 5: Okay. In that incident, so there was a broken thumb. Was there a tussle of some sort? You know, what exactly happened? [00:59:58] Lannie McCulley: My understanding was that there was -- [01:00:00] Speaker 5: Well, so without going into what you -- I mean, all you know of is a broken thumb that was suffered by Mr. -- I'm sorry, by Ms. McCauley, correct? Ms. McCauley, correct? [01:00:12] Lannie McCulley: I was there for the aftermath. [01:00:14] Speaker 5: Okay. And that case was actually dismissed by the state of New Mexico, correct? By the first judicial district attorney's office? [01:00:23] Lannie McCulley: That is what I understand. [01:00:25] Speaker 5: The attorney's prosecuting this case? Okay. Your Honor, I'd like to approach what's going to be marked as Defensive Unit 8. [01:00:40] Speaker ?: Mr. Neuer, you may continue, sir. Yes. May I approach? That's not what we said. That's not what we talked about. You have to ask her. MR. [01:00:47] Speaker 4: Mr. Nair, you may continue, sir. MR. May I approach? MR. That's not what we said. That's not what we talked about. [01:01:05] Speaker 5: You have to ask her. MR. No. Have you ever seen the actual notice of dismissal by the state of New Mexico? MS. [01:01:14] Lannie McCulley: No, I have not. [01:01:15] Speaker 5: MR. [01:01:16] Speaker 3: You have not? [01:01:17] Lannie McCulley: Okay. [01:01:18] Speaker ?: Your Honor, can we approach? MR. Yes. MR. Okay. All right. [01:01:24] Speaker 5: Now, on that particular day, in regards to you, you were discussing something about dinner that Isaac was cooking, possibly? MS. [01:01:40] Lannie McCulley: Could you clarify what day you're in reference to? [01:01:42] Speaker 5: MR. On October 28th, 2022? MS. [01:01:47] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:01:48] Lannie McCulley: MR. [01:01:49] Speaker 5: Okay. And you don't really know or actually have any personal knowledge of remembering whether Isaac, in fact, was cooking dinner that night, correct? [01:02:00] Lannie McCulley: MS. Yes, he was. He made dinner for them. [01:02:03] Speaker 5: MR. Okay. Were you there present when he was making dinner? MS. [01:02:07] Lannie McCulley: Yes, we were both in the kitchen at the same time. MR. [01:02:09] Speaker 5: Okay. And the relationship between Grace, I mean, you would say that the relationship between Grace and Chiara was pretty toxic, correct? MS. [01:02:22] Lannie McCulley: MS. I did not use that term, no. [01:02:25] Speaker 5: MR. Okay. But it was not a good relationship between Grace and Chiara, correct? [01:02:32] Lannie McCulley: MS. It ended poorly. It was a great relationship prior to that. [01:02:36] Speaker 5: MR. Okay. But there was a lot of tension between the two leading up to October of 2022, correct? MS. [01:02:46] Lannie McCulley: I don't believe they were even in conversation before October 29th of 2022. MR. Okay. [01:02:53] Speaker 5: MR. So it's safe to say that the relationship had deteriorated? MS. [01:02:58] Lannie McCulley: Their relationship ended when Chiara was in eighth grade. [01:03:02] Speaker ?: MR. [01:03:03] Speaker 5: Okay. MR. Now, do you say that the relationship had deteriorated to the point that Grace could easily provoke Chiara? [01:03:14] Lannie McCulley: MS. Yes. [01:03:16] Speaker 5: MR. Okay. And you stated that there was a 20 to 30 minute shower by Chiara on the day, and when I'm talking about the day, I'm talking about the day in question that you've been discussing. So on October 28th, there was a 20 to 30 minute shower by Chiara that day, correct? [01:03:33] Lannie McCulley: MS. You mean October 29th? [01:03:35] Speaker 5: MR. [01:03:36] Speaker ?: 29th, excuse me, yes. [01:03:37] Lannie McCulley: MS. MS. MS. [01:03:40] Speaker 5: October 29th, yes. She took a shower in the morning. [01:03:42] Speaker ?: MR. [01:03:43] Speaker 5: Okay. And she, and you said that that was early to, or I mean, that was around mid-morning, or could have been later than mid-morning? You just don't remember, correct? [01:03:54] Speaker ?: MS. [01:03:55] Lannie McCulley: MS. exact time. Okay, so it's kind of easy to lose track of the day? It's been four years. Okay, so you just don't remember and it was a Saturday, correct? Yes. Okay, and you were just doing household chores around the home? Yes. Okay. Now you stated that Kiara ran into your house when officers arrived, correct? I did not see the officers until she was in the house. Okay, but she had, she [01:04:26] Speaker 5: do not know that she was running from the officers, if that's what you're asking. But she was running into your house you had testified to, correct? Yes, she ran into the house to talk to me. Okay, and you stated that the sword purchased by Kiara was purchased before October of 2022? No. Okay, when was the sword purchased? The sword, I do not know who purchased it. It was on her Amazon account. Okay, and you said that Kiara opened [01:04:56] Lannie McCulley: the sword on October. The package came in on the 27th of October, which would have meant that it was probably ordered the week prior. Ma'am, can you, I understand this is a, you know. You asked for clarification, I'm trying to give it. You interrupted me, ma'am. So I'm, I mean, I understand this is, so let me ask a question and then we can go back and forth and I'll try not to interrupt you if you, if you can do the same. But what I'd like to ask is, [01:05:19] Speaker 5: please. So I'll ask a follow up. Kiara opened the sword on October 27th of 2022, according to your direct examination testimony with Mr. Long, correct? Yes. Okay. And, and that's what I was going to get to next, because you've already answered. It was on Kiara's Amazon account, correct? Correct. Thank you. Okay. Now tell me about this, uh, medieval, uh, reenactment group that you're, uh, a part of was, um, I am no longer a part of it. I was in the SCA for 12 years in my twenties. Okay. And Kiara was involved in this society? No. Okay. But Kiara knew a lot about how to interact with swords through you and your involvement in. [01:06:02] Lannie McCulley: It's not a discussion we had, no. Okay. Um, [01:06:09] Speaker 5: now you had stated that, um, in, under act that you didn't know of, you never saw, uh, you never saw Kiara ever accessing, um, Isaac's, uh, phones. You were never with, uh, Kiara all the time when she was with Isaac, correct? No, I was not with them all the time. Okay. And you really didn't know a lot about your daughter, correct? I knew my daughter very well, thank you. Okay. Good. You had said that, uh, you didn't think that the sweet person that you knew would, would stab someone to death, correct? I didn't say that. That's from your mouth. Yeah, but I said she was a sweet person. Okay. But you didn't know, you didn't know that she would stab somebody to death. That was my question. No, I would not have suspected that. Okay. Um, and you do know of, um, Grace, uh, threatening Kiara with knives previously? [01:07:14] Speaker 2: I heard that, yes. Objection, hearsay. Okay. Um, thank you. Um, [01:07:23] Speaker 5: Now, um, you also observed, um, Kiara role-playing with armor and middle-aged style Dungeons and Dragons, correct? [01:07:34] Lannie McCulley: No. No? No. She, we had one session of D&D and Isaac was present at the time. [01:07:44] Speaker 5: Okay. Can you, can you, can we admonish the witness to just answer my questions and not go, go into, um, tangents, Your Honor? You can direct the, um, witness by the way you asked the question. Okay. Yeah. So can you please just answer the question as I ask it? Then no. Okay. So Kiara never role-played with armor and middle-aged style Dungeons and Dragons, you're saying? No. Okay. One second, Your Honor. [01:08:12] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [01:08:42] Speaker 5: Do Kiara ever express an interest in middle-aged armor? [01:09:00] Lannie McCulley: Armor, no. [01:09:03] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:09:05] Speaker 5: Do you remember doing an interview with police in this case? [01:09:18] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [01:09:19] Speaker 5: Okay. Would it help if I refreshed your memory with what you told officers in this case? [01:09:28] Lannie McCulley: No. It would not? I do not want to hear it. I can't relive that day again. [01:09:36] Speaker 5: Okay. Would you have said something differently to officers on that particular day? [01:09:40] Lannie McCulley: I have no idea. That was four years ago. [01:09:43] Speaker 5: Okay. And would you have said that Kiara was interested in middle-aged armor? [01:09:52] Lannie McCulley: Armor? No. She was interested in AmpGuard. There is a difference. [01:10:00] Speaker 5: What is AmpGuard? [01:10:01] Lannie McCulley: AmpGuard is a different reenactment group. [01:10:06] Speaker 5: Okay. And you wouldn't have said that Kiara was described as an artist interested in middle-aged armor? [01:10:14] Speaker 4: Ask and answer. A little louder question. Do you recall making that statement? [01:10:21] Lannie McCulley: I would not have said armor. She was interested in the middle ages and in reenactment. Okay. Armor is too specific. Can I play this to impeach? [01:10:31] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:10:32] Speaker 3: Objection. Come on up. Okay. [01:10:35] Speaker 5: So, Ms. McCauley, you do remember doing an interview with Officer Jared Allaire on October 29, 2022, correct? I talked to a lot of officers. [01:10:54] Lannie McCulley: I don't know any of their names. Okay. [01:10:57] Speaker 5: But you remember doing an interview on that particular day with an officer at the police station? Yes. Okay. And you remember discussing swords that are used, discussing that Kiara uses or that Kiara is interested in middle ages, you know, in the armor. Do you remember saying that? [01:11:27] Lannie McCulley: It's possible I said it that way. [01:11:30] Speaker 5: Okay. So, you did use the word sword? Or armor, excuse me. [01:11:36] Lannie McCulley: It's possible. Okay. [01:11:38] Speaker 5: All right. Now, um... So, you say that also that Grace had previously threatened Kiara... Objection. [01:12:03] Speaker 2: Hearsay. [01:12:04] Speaker 5: Well, she answered that, Judge. Overruled. Thank you, Judge. So, you did previously say that Grace had threatened Kiara with a knife. Had that happened multiple times? [01:12:18] Lannie McCulley: I was told that Grace had threatened her with a knife, yes. Okay. But only one instance that I'm aware of. [01:12:28] Speaker 3: Okay. Thank you. [01:12:30] Speaker 5: Now, Kiara had been, um... Living in your house for, um... [01:12:47] Lannie McCulley: Her entire life. [01:12:48] Speaker 5: Okay. And, um... And then she had... She was in... She had moved into the detached garage. You said in 2022? With... [01:12:59] Lannie McCulley: 2021. [01:13:00] Speaker 5: 2021? Okay. And... Uh... Did you say that the garage did not have a bathroom or a kitchen? So, Kiara would have to go into the house, correct? Correct. And she would have to go into the house to wash clothes and do different things? [01:13:14] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [01:13:15] Speaker 5: Okay. And she was washing her clothes on that particular day on October 29th, 2022, correct? [01:13:21] Lannie McCulley: No. She was not doing laundry. [01:13:24] Speaker 5: The washer was on, correct? [01:13:25] Lannie McCulley: I was doing laundry. I was washing a rug. [01:13:29] Speaker 5: Okay. And, um... And you stated, um... Isaac and Kiara were engaged at one point? Yes. [01:13:40] Lannie McCulley: Okay. [01:13:41] Speaker 5: And, um... So, it's safe to say that Kiara had very strong feelings for Isaac, correct? [01:13:51] Lannie McCulley: I would presume so, yes. Okay. [01:13:54] Speaker 5: And Kiara also had very, um... Very strong jealousy towards Grace, correct? Jealousy? [01:14:00] Speaker ?: Objection, Your Honor? [01:14:01] Speaker 2: I wouldn't... Foundation? Nope. Okay. Re-ask the question. [01:14:06] Speaker 5: Do you know of any, uh, any relationship that, or anything that Grace may have had with Isaac? [01:14:18] Lannie McCulley: I understood that they were friends previously. [01:14:22] Speaker 5: Do you know of any sort of, do you have any personal knowledge of any sort of jealousy that Kiara may have had towards any sort of friendship that Isaac and Grace had? [01:14:31] Lannie McCulley: No. [01:14:32] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. [01:14:36] Speaker 5: Now, uh, on the day, on the 29th, you did not know anything that was going on in the, in your compound in that, in that detached garage that was close to your house? [01:14:51] Lannie McCulley: No, I did not. [01:14:52] Speaker 5: You did not hear any screaming? No. [01:14:54] Lannie McCulley: No. [01:14:55] Speaker 5: You did not hear any sort of moaning or any other noises from that detached garage? [01:15:01] Lannie McCulley: There are 27 feet between the garage and the house. Both doors were closed. Okay. [01:15:07] Speaker 5: But if somebody were to be, um... [01:15:09] Lannie McCulley: You could scream on the top of your lungs in the garage and I would not hear it. [01:15:13] Speaker 5: Even if you're stabbed 17 times or more than a dozen times by a sword? [01:15:22] Lannie McCulley: You could scream on the top of your lungs and I would not hear it. [01:15:26] Speaker 5: Okay. And you said it was how many feet? [01:15:29] Lannie McCulley: 27. [01:15:30] Speaker 5: Okay. And you didn't see any blood or anything else? [01:15:35] Lannie McCulley: No, I did not. [01:15:36] Speaker 5: Okay. At what point did you approach the detached garage on that particular day? [01:15:42] Lannie McCulley: When I gave the key to the officer to unlock it. Okay. [01:15:46] Speaker 5: And that was the first time you saw any blood? [01:15:48] Lannie McCulley: I did not see any blood. You still did not see any blood? [01:15:51] Speaker 5: I did not go in the garage. [01:15:53] Lannie McCulley: I was not allowed to go in the garage. Okay. [01:15:56] Speaker 5: No, you were talking about whether Isaac was sick or not. You don't personally know whether Isaac was actually sick or not. You're not a doctor, are you? [01:16:30] Lannie McCulley: No, I am not a doctor. But I do have common sense. Okay. [01:16:36] Speaker 5: And you are Ciara Macaulay's mother, correct? Yes, I am. [01:16:39] Lannie McCulley: Okay. [01:16:40] Speaker 5: You want what's best for Ms. Macaulay, correct? [01:16:43] Lannie McCulley: I want what's best for me right now, thank you. Okay. [01:16:47] Speaker 5: So you're stating that you did not witness what happened in the garage, correct? No, I did not. [01:16:55] Lannie McCulley: Okay. [01:16:56] Speaker 5: And you did not see Isaac harm anyone, correct? [01:17:01] Speaker ?: On October 29, 2022? [01:17:02] Speaker 5: No, I talked to him for less than 15 minutes. Okay. That's all I asked. [01:17:05] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:17:06] Speaker 5: Okay. So you have really no personal knowledge of what happened in the garage that particular day, correct? According to you? No, I don't. Okay. One second, Judge. Thank you. Kiara never told you why she ordered the sword? [01:17:59] Lannie McCulley: I was never told she ordered the sword. [01:18:02] Speaker 5: Okay. And you didn't actually witness the April 4th, 2022 argument, correct? [01:18:11] Lannie McCulley: I was there for the aftermath. [01:18:13] Speaker 5: Okay. [01:18:13] Lannie McCulley: So no, I did not. [01:18:14] Speaker 5: Okay. And you don't know whether Kiara had hit Isaac, correct? Yes or no? [01:18:22] Lannie McCulley: No. [01:18:23] Speaker 5: Okay. And you don't know who the first aggressor was? [01:18:27] Lannie McCulley: No. [01:18:28] Speaker 5: Okay. Kiara could have called Santa Fe PD back, correct? On that particular day? [01:18:37] Speaker 2: Objection, speculation. Okay. [01:18:46] Speaker 5: Now, you talked about a John in your yard. Can you describe this John? [01:18:53] Lannie McCulley: There was a person walking from my front to the back gate. Mm-hmm. I think for his privacy, it's unimportant. [01:19:01] Speaker 5: Okay. [01:19:02] Lannie McCulley: To give you his description. [01:19:04] Speaker 5: You know how Kiara, you don't know how Kiara advertised her services, correct? [01:19:08] Lannie McCulley: My understanding was it was on some app. [01:19:12] Speaker 5: Okay. Now, are you sure about this John in his yard or could this possibly be made up? [01:19:21] Lannie McCulley: Well, since I physically saw him. [01:19:23] Speaker 5: Okay. And you said, I think I heard you say around $50 to $2,500 per model? [01:19:35] Lannie McCulley: That's my understanding, yes. [01:19:36] Speaker 5: Okay. And did Kiara tell you that Grace was involved in this whole business model? [01:19:54] Lannie McCulley: What are you talking about? [01:19:55] Speaker 5: Did Kiara ever told you who was actually involved in this whole situation with the models? [01:20:04] Lannie McCulley: Objection. [01:20:05] Speaker 4: The models are a hot... Hold on. There's an objection. Stop talking until the court rules. [01:20:09] Speaker 5: I can rephrase it, Your Honor. [01:20:11] Speaker 4: Hang on. I don't know what the objection is. [01:20:12] Speaker 5: Can I say? [01:20:13] Speaker 4: Yes, sir. [01:20:13] Speaker 5: Yeah, I can rephrase it. Do you have a personal knowledge of Grace's involvement in all of this? [01:20:22] Lannie McCulley: In all of what? [01:20:23] Speaker 5: In everything involving the models? [01:20:26] Lannie McCulley: The models was a hobby from Isaac. [01:20:32] Speaker 5: There was no business involved. Okay, but do you know if Grace was involved in this whole... [01:20:37] Lannie McCulley: In his hobby? No. [01:20:38] Speaker 5: Okay. No, you had also discussed... thinking about not evicting Kiara and how Kiara was threatening to move out, correct? [01:21:05] Lannie McCulley: She threatened to move out when I tried to evict Isaac. Okay. [01:21:14] Speaker 5: Did Kiara often threaten you to get what you wanted? [01:21:18] Lannie McCulley: No. [01:21:20] Speaker 5: Okay, but was that something she was kind of threatening you at that particular time, correct? [01:21:25] Lannie McCulley: She said she would go live on the street with him. It wasn't a threat. [01:21:29] Speaker 5: Okay. Now, did Kiara ever tell you some of the disorders or illnesses that she may have... [01:21:41] Speaker 2: Objection, hearsay. [01:21:45] Speaker 5: Do you... I can rephrase that, I'm sorry. You know of any sort of illnesses or disorders that plagued Kiara? [01:21:54] Speaker 2: Objection, foundation. [01:21:58] Speaker 5: Okay. [01:21:59] Speaker 4: Objection, sister. [01:22:00] Speaker 5: All right. Do you know if she actually dropped out of high school or you withdrew her from high school? [01:22:11] Lannie McCulley: She dropped out of high school. [01:22:12] Speaker 5: Okay, and that would have been Capitol High School? [01:22:15] Lannie McCulley: No. [01:22:16] Speaker 5: Which high school would that have been? [01:22:23] Lannie McCulley: It was an online school. [01:22:24] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:22:25] Speaker 5: It's safe to say, Ms. McCauley, all due respect to you, you don't know a lot about your daughter. Correct? [01:22:30] Lannie McCulley: I know a lot about her. But it's been four years. I understand. [01:22:34] Speaker 5: But early on in the direct examination, you kind of hesitated in answering even what her age was. You were kind of... [01:22:41] Lannie McCulley: I was making sure I got it correct. [01:22:43] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:22:44] Lannie McCulley: I am allowed to think. [01:22:45] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:22:46] Speaker 5: And now in regards to her schooling, you don't really remember, correct? [01:22:51] Speaker 4: Objection, argumentative. Sustained. [01:22:53] Speaker 5: Okay. I'll move on, Judge. You say that 27 feet from the house to the garage, you actually measured this? [01:23:03] Lannie McCulley: Yes. I'm working on putting in a pergola. [01:23:06] Speaker 5: Pergola? [01:23:07] Lannie McCulley: Yes. Okay. [01:23:14] Speaker 3: That'd be further, Your Honor. Thank you. [01:23:16] Speaker 4: Redirect. [01:23:16] Speaker ?: Redirect. [01:23:16] Speaker 2: Ms. McCauley, you mentioned that the model building was a hobby. [01:23:35] Lannie McCulley: Yes. [01:23:36] Speaker 2: And was that a hobby of Isaac's, a hobby of Kiarra's, or a hobby of Isaac and Kiarra's? [01:23:43] Lannie McCulley: It was Isaac's hobby. [01:23:45] Speaker 2: Okay. And do you know where Mr. Isaac Apodaca got the money to buy the models? [01:23:52] Lannie McCulley: I do not. [01:23:57] Speaker 4: Nothing further. Is this witness released or retained? [01:24:01] Speaker 2: State would reserve her for rebuttal. [01:24:02] Speaker 4: So, you'll be able to step down now. The attorneys will stay in touch with you and let you know if you need to come back and testify again. So, in the interim, don't discuss your testimony with anyone. Don't seek out any information about the case. You may step down. Thank you. [01:24:22] Speaker ?: Thank you.