Amber Alert Murder Trial: Defendant Dustin Duren Faces Cross-Examination

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Thank you, please be seated. Mr. Dern again, you're still on the rules. Thank you. [00:00:30] Speaker 2: Mr. Dern, you testified on Friday that it was January 19th of 2024 when Caitlin first sent you her flight information as to how she was going to come to New Hampshire with Valen, is that correct? [00:01:01] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:01:01] Speaker 2: And you hadn't quite left from Minnesota at that point. You were, in fact, still there until the 20th, the next day? [00:01:08] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:01:09] Speaker 2: So it was on January 19th that you knew that Caitlin's ticket from Minnesota to Boston was [00:01:16] Speaker 4: for two people, correct? [00:01:18] Speaker 3: Well, it was a single ticket, but yes, with both, because Valen was only one at the time. [00:01:29] Speaker 2: And you knew it was a round-trip ticket for two passengers, correct? [00:01:32] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:01:38] Speaker 2: But your intention was, and the thought was, that Caitlin wouldn't bring Valen back to Minnesota, that you would keep her there with you, correct? [00:01:47] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:01:49] Speaker 2: And you wanted Caitlin and believed that Caitlin was going to go to Minnesota again after that? [00:01:54] Speaker 3: For a few more months, yes. [00:01:57] Speaker 2: Was she then, she then was going to move to New Hampshire and live about two and a half hours away from you? [00:02:04] Speaker 3: And if that was what she wanted, yes. [00:02:09] Speaker 2: Were you going to let her, you weren't going to let her move into your house in Berlin, correct? [00:02:13] Speaker 3: As I said earlier, I would have if she wanted to have the conversation. I would have, I would have talked about it. [00:02:20] Speaker 2: But you've testified and you have heard your statement where you told the police that your plan, as you discussed with your mom, when you would have victory, was for when you had the girls and Caitlin was gone, correct? [00:02:35] Speaker 3: Because that was what was always the plan. [00:02:39] Speaker 2: Now, you made it clear to police that you're a very calm person, correct? [00:02:45] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:02:46] Speaker 2: You do your best under stress? [00:02:49] Speaker 3: I think so, yes. [00:02:50] Speaker 2: And that's what you told them, correct? [00:02:51] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:02:52] Speaker 2: Now, you've talked to us today about this marine threat level that you function with in your daily basis, correct? [00:03:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:03:01] Speaker 2: But as being a marine, you were taught how to deal with stress, correct? [00:03:05] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:03:05] Speaker 2: That's part of what that MCMAP training is, the Marine Combat Martial Arts Program. [00:03:09] Speaker 3: Well, that's not about stress, but about drilling and training. [00:03:14] Speaker 2: Well, it's a three-part process, right? It teaches you about intellectual stuff, mental training, as well as physical and disciplinary training, correct? [00:03:22] Speaker 3: Sure, yes. [00:03:23] Speaker 2: And so it teaches you as a marine, because that's a high-stress job, right? [00:03:26] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:03:27] Speaker 2: And you need to be able to assess threats, but still make decisions, correct? [00:03:30] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:03:31] Speaker 2: All right. Now, you told the police that you only yelled at Caitlin one time on January 29th, the day you killed her, correct? [00:03:39] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:03:39] Speaker 2: But today you've testified that you were yelling at her, you were screaming at her, what's going on, give Elowen back, correct? [00:03:45] Speaker 3: No. [00:03:46] Speaker 2: No, you were screaming at all? [00:03:47] Speaker 3: I said this was the one time that I did yell. [00:03:51] Speaker 2: So you yelled once? The one time. [00:03:53] Speaker 3: Yes. The one time where I was yelling, yes. [00:03:55] Speaker 2: And you yelled just once. One yell. [00:03:58] Speaker 3: Okay. Maybe it was two sentences. [00:04:03] Speaker 2: Could it have been more than two sentences? [00:04:05] Speaker 3: No. [00:04:06] Speaker 2: You were pretty frustrated, weren't you? [00:04:07] Speaker 3: I was having justifiable emotions with my child being held hostage in front of me. [00:04:14] Speaker 2: And those emotions were frustration, correct? [00:04:17] Speaker 3: You could say that, yes. [00:04:20] Speaker 2: Anger, correct? [00:04:21] Speaker 3: No, I don't think so. [00:04:23] Speaker 2: You weren't angry? You just said she was being held hostage. That didn't make you angry? [00:04:27] Speaker 3: I was frustrated, yes, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I was angry. [00:04:33] Speaker 2: But it caused you to yell just once, and that's one of, what, three times in your entire relationship? [00:04:40] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:04:43] Speaker 2: Now, there was no time on January 29th of 2024 where Caitlin hit you, correct? [00:04:49] Speaker 3: No. [00:04:50] Speaker 2: She never struck you? [00:04:52] Speaker 3: No. [00:04:52] Speaker 2: She never struck Elowen? [00:04:54] Speaker 3: No. [00:04:55] Speaker 2: She never struck Valen? [00:04:57] Speaker 3: No. [00:04:58] Speaker 2: In the moments before you shot her, you described to police that she was holding Elowen in a bear hug, correct? [00:05:05] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:05] Speaker 2: Today, you've described it as a one-arm hold. Fair to say? [00:05:08] Speaker 3: No. The bear hug was in the third attempt, the final attempt. [00:05:13] Speaker 2: Okay. But before that, Caitlin was only holding Elowen with one arm. [00:05:18] Speaker 3: Sure, yes. [00:05:19] Speaker 2: Caitlin was five feet tall? [00:05:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:21] Speaker 2: She was 114 pounds? [00:05:23] Speaker 3: About, yeah. [00:05:24] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, you heard the medical examiner say he weighed her naked body, and she was 114 pounds, correct? [00:05:29] Speaker 3: Okay, yes. [00:05:31] Speaker 2: Now, you are about 5'10", correct? [00:05:34] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:35] Speaker 2: On your license, it says you were 190 pounds. Fair to say? [00:05:38] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:40] Speaker 2: You're bigger than she is. [00:05:42] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:43] Speaker 2: You're stronger than she is. [00:05:44] Speaker 3: But that has nothing to do with when she's holding my child hostage and restraining her. [00:05:51] Speaker 2: Mr. Daron, you're bigger than she is, correct? [00:05:53] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:54] Speaker 2: You're stronger than she is, correct? [00:05:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:57] Speaker 2: You've had martial arts training, correct? Yes. You know how to fight with your hands. [00:06:01] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:06:03] Speaker 2: And yet, when Caitlin was holding Elowen with one arm, you couldn't get her away. [00:06:08] Speaker 3: Without hurting Elowen, no. [00:06:13] Speaker 2: Your testimony today is actually that you shot Caitlin because she hurt Elowen in a moment when you tried to pull her away, correct? [00:06:23] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:06:26] Speaker 2: She had no weapons? [00:06:27] Speaker 3: Well, actually, I should clarify. [00:06:29] Speaker 2: Mr. Daron, you've answered the question. You had no weapons? I'm sorry, she had no weapons? [00:06:36] Speaker 3: She did not have a weapon, no. [00:06:38] Speaker 2: She did not have a knife? [00:06:40] Speaker 3: She did not have a knife, no. [00:06:42] Speaker 2: Where you were standing, you had two pocket knives behind you in the room, correct? [00:06:46] Speaker 3: In the bedroom. [00:06:48] Speaker 2: In your bedroom? [00:06:50] Speaker 3: Yes, behind me. [00:06:53] Speaker 2: The front door was behind you? [00:06:55] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:06:56] Speaker 2: Where you were positioned in the living room, she would have to go through you to get to the back door, correct? [00:07:02] Speaker 3: Yes, that's why I didn't want to leave the immediate area. Why I had to keep constant visual on her and Elowen. [00:07:13] Speaker 2: But you didn't have constant visual on Valen, correct? [00:07:16] Speaker 3: Sadly, no. [00:07:18] Speaker 2: You, Caitlin did not have a gun, correct? [00:07:22] Speaker 3: No. [00:07:23] Speaker 2: You had the gun, right? [00:07:24] Speaker 3: Well, the gun was, technically, the gun was closer to her, but there was a gun in the room, yes. [00:07:31] Speaker 2: Now, let's talk about that. Caitlin was at your house, she spent the night? [00:07:39] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:07:40] Speaker 2: At some point, however, even though you were nervous, because you've described that the whole time she was there, you wanted her to leave, right? [00:07:48] Speaker 3: I wouldn't say I was nervous that night or the morning. [00:07:54] Speaker 2: But you wanted her to leave? [00:07:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:07:57] Speaker 2: You were suspicious, right? [00:07:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:07:59] Speaker 2: Because you hadn't expected her to come to the house? [00:08:02] Speaker 3: No. [00:08:03] Speaker 2: You testified that that made you nervous, correct? [00:08:05] Speaker 3: Yes, yes. [00:08:06] Speaker 2: So you were nervous? [00:08:08] Speaker 3: Okay. Yes. [00:08:11] Speaker 2: Now, you have a gun safe in that house, a gun lockbox, right? [00:08:14] Speaker 3: I do, yes. [00:08:15] Speaker 2: It's in the back bedroom, right, when you walk in from the back door, correct? [00:08:18] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:08:19] Speaker 2: You didn't put the gun in that lockbox, right? [00:08:21] Speaker 3: No. The gun is always near me. [00:08:25] Speaker 2: Except when it's in the lockbox? [00:08:29] Speaker 3: I guess it would depend on the situation, but it would have been rarely in the safe. [00:08:34] Speaker 2: When the gun was on the desk, you weren't sitting at the desk, correct? [00:08:40] Speaker 3: I was previously. [00:08:42] Speaker 2: You didn't pick up the gun when you walked away from the desk? [00:08:45] Speaker 3: No. [00:08:46] Speaker 2: So the gun isn't always near you, fair to say? [00:08:49] Speaker 3: I always have visual on it. This is something that is instilled in you from the Marine Corps. You always know where your weapon is. You always are aware of who's around it. [00:09:00] Speaker 2: Was it instilled in you in the Marine Corps to leave your gun out on a desk if you're nervous about the other people who have access to it? [00:09:08] Speaker 3: Again, I know who is around it at all times. [00:09:13] Speaker 2: You've testified that you were nervous about Caitlin, correct? [00:09:16] Speaker 3: Sure, yes. [00:09:17] Speaker 2: Okay, and you testified today. I mean, you didn't tell the police, but you testified today or I guess on Friday that you would talk Caitlin how to use that gun, correct? [00:09:26] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:09:27] Speaker 2: Okay, and today you testified that you were concerned because she was in close proximity to the gun, right? [00:09:34] Speaker 3: Which is, again, why I wasn't leaving the room. [00:09:38] Speaker 2: But you were concerned, and that's what you testified today, that Caitlin was in close proximity to the gun, right? [00:09:44] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:09:44] Speaker 2: Part of that concern that you thought maybe she might go for the gun? [00:09:49] Speaker 3: I mean, I can't say hypotheticals, but that was the point of me staying in the room and constant visual on her and Elowen. [00:10:01] Speaker 2: Well, you can't say hypotheticals, but you sure testified that you didn't know someone was outside your door, correct? [00:10:08] Speaker ?: Yes. That's a hypothetical, right? [00:10:12] Speaker 3: I suppose so, yes. [00:10:13] Speaker 2: You can't say hypotheticals, but you sure testified that you weren't sure if Caitlin had texted somebody to come to the house, correct? [00:10:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:10:21] Speaker 2: You can't say hypotheticals, but you sure testified that you didn't know if Caitlin had brought other people with her from Minnesota, correct? [00:10:28] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:10:34] Speaker 2: Now, I want to talk to you a little bit more about your calmness under stress. You told a story on Friday, the third story, I believe, about what happened to you in Las Vegas, right? You were directed to talk about the third thing. Yes. And so let's talk about that third thing. In Las Vegas, one night when Caitlin was at work, correct? [00:10:59] Speaker 3: Yes. I believe she was babysitting someone, yes. [00:11:01] Speaker 2: Okay, but that's work, right? She was making money doing that? [00:11:04] Speaker 3: Yes, yes. [00:11:06] Speaker 2: You were at home, and you heard a person try to get into the front door, correct? Yes. That person was a stranger? Yes. You didn't know them? [00:11:14] Speaker 3: No. [00:11:14] Speaker 2: Had no reason to have feelings for that person? [00:11:18] Speaker 3: No. [00:11:18] Speaker 2: No love for them? [00:11:20] Speaker 3: No. [00:11:21] Speaker 2: You picked up your gun when you heard that person at the door, correct? [00:11:24] Speaker 3: Yes, after bringing Elowen upstairs and made sure that she was safe upstairs and not to move. [00:11:31] Speaker 2: Left her in a place in the house where you didn't have eyes on her, correct? [00:11:34] Speaker 3: They would have had to got through me to get to her. [00:11:39] Speaker 2: You picked up your gun? [00:11:41] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:11:41] Speaker 2: You made sure that it was loaded with a clip in it? [00:11:44] Speaker 3: It was loaded previously, but yes. [00:11:47] Speaker 2: Okay, you racked the slide to make it ready to fire? [00:11:51] Speaker 3: It was at that point, actually, it was already loaded. [00:11:55] Speaker 2: So you already had it ready to fire? [00:11:57] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:11:57] Speaker 2: So when you told the police in your statement that you are a person who never keeps the gun with a bullet in the chamber, that wasn't quite true, correct? [00:12:06] Speaker 3: Never, I guess I shouldn't have said an absolute like never, but a majority of the time it is in condition three, not condition one. So normally without a round in the chamber. [00:12:23] Speaker 2: So when the person was trying to break in your front door and you picked up your gun, it was already ready to go, right? [00:12:29] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:12:29] Speaker 2: Was the safety on? [00:12:31] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:12:31] Speaker 2: Did you turn it off? [00:12:32] Speaker 3: No. [00:12:33] Speaker 2: So you approached the stranger at your front door with a loaded gun ready to fire, but the safety's still on, correct? [00:12:40] Speaker 3: Yes. That is how you train. You don't take the safety off until immediately before you fire, and then you immediately put it back on. [00:12:52] Speaker 2: And holding that gun, you told the stranger to leave? [00:12:55] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:12:57] Speaker 2: Holding that gun, you told the stranger that you were armed, correct? [00:13:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:02] Speaker 2: Holding that gun, you opened your front door to the stranger and said you should go, correct? [00:13:08] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:09] Speaker 2: Holding that gun, you showed the stranger your weapon, and you said, look, I'm armed, correct? [00:13:16] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:16] Speaker 2: You told the stranger you could shoot, correct? [00:13:21] Speaker 3: No, but I'm flashing it, yes, yes. [00:13:25] Speaker 2: You had called the police that night. [00:13:29] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:31] Speaker 2: Your muscle memory didn't take over, right? You didn't just shoot the stranger. [00:13:37] Speaker 3: Because the stranger wasn't holding my child. [00:13:40] Speaker 2: But the stranger was trying to break into the house where your child was located. [00:13:44] Speaker 3: But I was in between that person and the child, and they were never in the house. [00:13:51] Speaker 2: And you didn't shoot that stranger in the head, did you? [00:13:53] Speaker 3: No. [00:13:55] Speaker 2: You waited for the police, and the stranger just walked away. [00:13:58] Speaker 3: Well, they continued banging on windows and trying to get in through windows, and then eventually left, as I stayed downstairs and monitored. [00:14:10] Speaker 2: So this person not just knocks on your door and attempts to break in, but now they're breaking through windows. You don't see the windows, you don't see your child, and you don't shoot. Correct? [00:14:19] Speaker 3: They didn't actually break a window, but they were banging on windows, yes. [00:14:23] Speaker 2: You testified that on February the 14th of 2024, you called the Berlin Police Department, right? [00:14:29] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:14:30] Speaker 2: And you called them because you just had a fight over the phone, so you say, with Caitlin, correct? [00:14:36] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:14:36] Speaker 2: And that was about custody, correct? [00:14:39] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:14:39] Speaker 2: And in that phone conversation, is it fair to say that Caitlin made some of the same statements you've testified she made on the 29th before you shot her? [00:14:49] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:14:50] Speaker 2: You say that she was demanding money, she wanted the kids on her taxes, she was never going to let you see them again, and she was going to bring them back to Minnesota, correct? [00:14:59] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:01] Speaker 2: So to call the Berlin Police Department, you had to look up that phone number, correct? [00:15:05] Speaker 3: I did, yes. [00:15:06] Speaker 2: You spoke with somebody for over six minutes at the police department, didn't you? [00:15:10] Speaker 3: Okay, yes. [00:15:13] Speaker 2: On February 29th, you had your cell phone with you, right? [00:15:17] Speaker 3: I couldn't say where it was, but... [00:15:20] Speaker 2: You had it while Caitlin was at your apartment? [00:15:22] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:23] Speaker 2: You had it the whole time that she was there? [00:15:25] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:26] Speaker 2: You had it the every 15 to 30 minutes that you walked in to ask her to leave and she ignored you? [00:15:33] Speaker 3: Well, I wasn't seeing a threat at that point. [00:15:36] Speaker 2: But you were nervous. [00:15:37] Speaker 3: I was, yes. [00:15:38] Speaker 2: You testified just now that that made you wonder what the plan was, what she was going to do, whether something was afoot, correct? [00:15:46] Speaker 3: But I don't think that would be appropriate to call the police over. [00:15:51] Speaker 2: But then after those, you didn't shoot her then either, correct? [00:15:54] Speaker 3: No. [00:15:55] Speaker 2: So, after going into the room every 15 to 30 minutes, and let's be clear, this is from lunchtime, correct, until it gets dark? [00:16:03] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:16:04] Speaker 2: So, let's say from noon until maybe 5 p.m.? [00:16:06] Speaker 3: Sure. [00:16:07] Speaker 2: Okay, just as an average, right? So, 12 to 1, 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 4 to 5, 5 hours, right? So, at any time during those, either the 5 hours or at any time during the day prior to shooting Caitlin in the head, you never tried to force her to get out of your apartment, correct? [00:16:35] Speaker 3: I, no, I didn't physically try to force her out of the home, no. [00:16:39] Speaker 2: You knew that you could, right? [00:16:43] Speaker 3: I, because I'm stronger, I guess? [00:16:47] Speaker 2: Well, you've been back to the major leave a home before, correct? Your Honor, maybe approach. [00:16:56] Speaker 1: Sure. [00:17:13] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:19:02] Speaker 2: Mr. Doren, you've made Caitlin leave a house before, correct? [00:19:09] Speaker 3: Yes or no? No. [00:19:40] Speaker ?: No. No. No. No. No. No. [00:19:45] Speaker 2: Courts indulgence. Mr. Dern, at no time before you shot Caitlin in the head did you call the police and tell them that she was refusing to leave your home, correct? [00:20:44] Speaker 3: No. [00:20:45] Speaker 2: At no time before you shot her in the head did you call the police and tell them that you were afraid that she was going to harm your children, correct? [00:20:54] Speaker 3: That's correct. [00:20:55] Speaker 2: At no time before you shot her in the head at any point during that day did you call the police and say that you were afraid she would take your children, correct? [00:21:07] Speaker 3: I did prior to that but not that day, no. [00:21:09] Speaker 2: You mean the February 14th phone call, correct? Yes. You didn't call the police back, correct? No. You didn't call back the officer that you spoke with for six minutes? No. You had set it up so that they were aware, correct? [00:21:21] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:21:22] Speaker 2: But you never bothered to call them that day and say, "Hey, get this woman out of my house," correct? [00:21:26] Speaker 3: because at the point at the point that this was happening, this was a moment-to-moment situation. I couldn't take my eyes or my focus off of Elwyn or Caitlin. [00:21:39] Speaker 2: Between 12:00 PM and 5:00 PM, you asked Caitlin to leave approximately what, 12 times? [00:21:44] Speaker 3: Well, yes, but that didn't seem appropriate enough a reason to call the police over. [00:21:51] Speaker 2: She was staying in your house against your will, correct? [00:21:55] Speaker 3: I was trying to figure out the plan. [00:21:57] Speaker 2: You were not concerned enough that you needed to call the police to have her leave, correct? [00:22:06] Speaker 3: At that point, no. [00:22:07] Speaker 2: But even though you wanted her to leave, you did nothing to make it happen? [00:22:12] Speaker 3: Correct? I was trying to figure out the plan. [00:22:32] Speaker 2: Mr. Durant, after you shot the police and you've testified here today that you didn't understand what had happened, correct? [00:22:39] Speaker 3: Can you clarify? I shot the police. [00:22:43] Speaker 2: After you shot Caitlin, you have testified today that you did not understand what had happened, correct? [00:22:52] Speaker 3: I was, yes, I was trying to figure it out. [00:22:54] Speaker 2: You were trained as a Marine, right? [00:22:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:22:57] Speaker 2: You know what happens when you fire a gun at somebody, correct? [00:23:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:23:01] Speaker 2: You know what the intention is when you point and fire a gun at somebody, correct? [00:23:06] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:23:06] Speaker 2: And that intention is to kill. [00:23:08] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:23:08] Speaker 2: You knew that you had done that. You knew that you had killed Caitlin, correct? [00:23:14] Speaker 3: I didn't consciously realize that it was Caitlin until, like I said, I was in the car with Elowen. [00:23:20] Speaker 2: So you knew that there was somebody dead on the couch in your living room, right? [00:23:25] Speaker 3: My focus was Elowen. [00:23:28] Speaker 2: And you knew that it was Caitlin who had set you off and made you grab the gun? [00:23:32] Speaker 3: I don't know if I would say set me off, but yes. Yes. [00:23:40] Speaker 2: Well, you described it as a tick, right? [00:23:42] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:23:43] Speaker 2: Setting you off, it's a tick, right? [00:23:48] Speaker 3: Hurting my child. Hurting my child in front of me, yes. [00:23:51] Speaker 2: Okay. And your testimony today is that that is the reason why you fired? [00:23:55] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:23:56] Speaker 2: After you shot her, you didn't call the police to report that you had just killed somebody inside of your own apartment? No. You didn't call the police and report that you had done that because somebody had hurt your child, correct? [00:24:10] Speaker ?: No. [00:24:11] Speaker 2: You didn't do that to say to the police, hey, I thought they were going to kidnap my child, correct? [00:24:18] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:24:19] Speaker 2: You didn't call the police and say, hey, I thought that my child was being held hostage and I had no choice, correct? [00:24:28] Speaker 3: I did not call the police and tell them those things, no. [00:24:32] Speaker 2: You never called the police, did you? [00:24:35] Speaker 3: I called my parents and told them to call the police, yes. [00:24:39] Speaker 2: You agree? That's not calling the police, correct? [00:24:41] Speaker 3: Technically, no. [00:24:43] Speaker 2: Not technically, sir. It is not calling the police to call your parents who live thousands of miles away. Fair to say? [00:24:49] Speaker 3: Okay. Yes. [00:25:02] Speaker 2: Now, Mr. Duran, you and Caitlin ostensibly, for lack of a better term, broke up in August of 2023, correct? [00:25:27] Speaker 3: Well, I guess a couple weeks before, end of July, but yes. Okay. Yes. [00:25:34] Speaker ?: Yes. Okay. [00:25:36] Speaker 2: And since that time, you've engaged in different arguments about the children, fair to say? [00:25:42] Speaker 3: Sure. [00:25:43] Speaker 2: Yes. You've had the same arguments since you broke up that you've described to us here in your testimony today, right? [00:25:57] Speaker 3: Not to that extent, but yes. Yes. [00:26:05] Speaker 2: Okay. But you've had arguments about money since August of 2023? Yes. [00:26:09] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:26:10] Speaker 2: You've testified that those arguments involved Caitlin asking you for more money, correct? [00:26:15] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:26:16] Speaker 2: You've had arguments about how much time the other parents should get to spend with each child, correct? [00:26:23] Speaker 3: No. Not how much they should spend. I always wanted to try to keep it 50-50. [00:26:32] Speaker 2: You wanted to keep it 50-50, but since August, you've seen Valen, I think you said 93 times, and Caitlin had her 48, correct? [00:26:40] Speaker 3: I think it was 98 and 48, and then 15 split, but that was a lot of what Caitlin was telling me about was just how difficult it was to try to work and also care for the kids at the same time. So it was just making sense with me having them more. That wasn't me demanding that I needed them more. [00:27:04] Speaker 2: No. You testified that you've spoken with attorneys in both Nevada and Minnesota, correct? [00:27:16] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:27:17] Speaker 2: You never filed for custody in Nevada, correct? No. No. You never filed for custody in Minnesota, correct? [00:27:26] Speaker 3: No. [00:27:27] Speaker 2: You never filed paperwork with any court, correct? [00:27:30] Speaker 3: No. [00:27:31] Speaker 2: No. There is no court order that gave you sole custody of these children, correct? [00:27:39] Speaker 3: No. I didn't want full custody or sole custody. [00:27:43] Speaker 2: And there was no court order that took away Caitlin's rights to custody of the children, correct? [00:27:48] Speaker 3: No. [00:27:49] Speaker 2: She, in fact, and you, had the same or equal rights to both children, correct? Injection, speculation. [00:27:57] Speaker 1: Well ruled. [00:28:00] Speaker 3: That's correct, yes. That's correct. [00:28:03] Speaker ?: Yes. Now, when you walked over to your desk to pick up the gun, you picked up the gun, correct? [00:28:14] Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. [00:28:16] Speaker ?: You testified that you racked the slide? Yes. [00:28:21] Speaker 2: That placed a bullet in the chamber, correct? Yes. You left the safety on at that point because you were not quite ready to fire? Well, I'm fairly certain when you rack it back the safety gets flipped off because the hammer is back. Kaitlyn saw you pick up the gun, didn't she? I'm sure she did, yes. Kaitlyn heard you rack the slide? Yes. [00:28:41] Speaker 3: That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. [00:28:48] Speaker 2: That's correct. That's correct. Yes. [00:28:51] Speaker ?: That's correct. [00:28:52] Speaker 3: Yes. That's correct. [00:28:54] Speaker 2: That's correct. Yes. That's correct. That's correct. Your Honor, may we approach? [00:29:26] Speaker ?: That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. [00:29:41] Speaker 2: That's correct. That's correct. [00:29:43] Speaker ?: That's correct. That's correct. [00:29:45] Speaker 3: That's correct. Sure. [00:29:47] Speaker 2: Yeah. [00:29:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, you can hear it, right? [00:29:49] Speaker 2: You can hear it. You can hear it in your room when Jill Terrio racked a slide on an unloaded gun, correct? [00:29:54] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:29:55] Speaker 2: So you can assume if Caitlin's sitting closer to the gun than you were, she heard it, right? [00:29:59] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:30:00] Speaker 2: She reacted, didn't she? [00:30:03] Speaker 3: She did not, no. No. [00:30:06] Speaker 2: Caitlin didn't ask you what you were doing? [00:30:12] Speaker 3: Maybe she attempted to say that. [00:30:16] Speaker 2: Well, did she attempt to say, "What are you doing?" or did she say, "What are you doing?" [00:30:22] Speaker ?: No. I can't say. [00:30:52] Speaker 2: Mr. Duran, do you recall what Caitlin did that was her attempt to say, what are you doing? [00:31:21] Speaker 3: No. [00:31:51] Speaker 2: Mr. Duran, you reviewed all of the evidence for this case, correct? I hope so, yes. [00:32:09] Speaker ?: Have you spoken to your attorneys about it? [00:32:10] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:32:11] Speaker 2: Have you gone over any reports that were created? [00:32:15] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:32:16] Speaker ?: You've gone over any reports that were created? Yeah, we approach. [00:32:16] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:32:17] Speaker ?: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:32:17] Speaker 2: Thank you. [00:32:18] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:32:18] Speaker 2: Thank you. [00:32:19] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:32:19] Speaker 2: Thank you. [00:32:20] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:33:23] Speaker 1: Thank you. Strike the last question and answer and just indicate that relative to any instructions or conduct between Mr. Dern and his attorneys would be attorney-client privileged and you are not to consider the last question and answer. Thank you. [00:34:10] Speaker 2: Thank you. Mr. Dern, I'm showing you what's been marked for identification purposes of States Exhibit 33 in this matter. Just looking at that header, and I'm not asking you to read anything out loud, but looking at this document, do you recognize it? Yes. It's a document that was prepared, correct? [00:34:24] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:34:25] Speaker 2: Okay. I'm going to ask you to take a look at this document. I'm going to ask you, counsel, for your information. It's on page two of that document. I'm going to ask you to take a look at the third paragraph, and really it's towards the bottom here. I'm going to ask you to read those to yourself. Will you look up when you're done? [00:34:59] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:35:00] Speaker 2: Does that refresh your recollection as to whether Caitlyn asked you what you were doing with the gun? [00:35:06] Speaker 3: I'll just say, I'm not going to comment on what someone else said. I said someone else said. [00:35:15] Speaker 4: Mm hmm. So, the answer is, in here it says that you told someone that Caitlyn had asked you what you were doing with the gun, correct? [00:35:28] Speaker 2: I'm not going to say why someone else said. I said something, but that doesn't refresh your recollection that Caitlyn looked at you after she saw the gun, after she heard the slide rack and said, what are you going to do? Correct? She did not say that, no. [00:35:44] Speaker ?: She did not say that, no. [00:35:44] Speaker 3: Well, let's look at another document associated with that. [00:35:50] Speaker 2: Section 34 for identification. I ask you to take a look at this document right here where the tab is marked and you can look at the whole thing afterwards. It's underlined on the page that's tabbed. Have you seen that report? That's a draft copy of that report you just looked at, right? Well, that would be the same person. So, yes. And that same person is somebody that you met with, spoke with, and provided information about this incident, correct? [00:36:23] Speaker 3: Sure, yes. Someone who you've described in messages as the key to everything, correct? No. [00:36:38] Speaker 2: That report, where it says, and Caitlyn nonchalantly- Your Honor, let me approach. [00:36:46] Speaker ?: Hmm. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:38:28] Speaker 2: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:38:36] Speaker ?: You're not going to be the same person. [00:38:37] Speaker 3: You're not going to be the same person. [00:38:38] Speaker ?: You're not going to be the same person. [00:38:39] Speaker 2: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:38:41] Speaker 3: You're not going to be the same person. [00:38:42] Speaker 2: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:38:45] Speaker 3: You're not going to be the same person. [00:38:46] Speaker 2: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:38:49] Speaker 3: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:39:16] Speaker 2: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:39:20] Speaker 3: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:39:22] Speaker 2: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:39:25] Speaker 3: You're not going to be the same person. [00:39:26] Speaker ?: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:39:28] Speaker 2: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:39:31] Speaker 3: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're going to be the same person. You're going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:40:00] Speaker 2: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:40:02] Speaker ?: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:40:04] Speaker 3: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:40:07] Speaker 2: You're not going to be the same person. You're not going to be the same person. [00:40:11] Speaker 3: You're not going to be the same person. Without aiming in any way? I was not looking through the sights, no. I was absolutely aiming, yes. [00:40:17] Speaker 2: With your hand behind you or next to your body? [00:40:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:40:21] Speaker 2: So you couldn't see the exact location where that barrel was pointed, correct? [00:40:26] Speaker 3: When someone fires a gun tens of thousands of times, you know where it's aiming at all times. [00:40:32] Speaker 2: You know where it's aiming when you're standing like this with your gun here? [00:40:35] Speaker 3: Absolutely. [00:40:36] Speaker 2: You know if your elbow's not cocked in the wrong position. You know if you're off by an inch. Is that fair to say? [00:40:42] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:40:43] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. You testified when or actually you told the police. They asked you if you knew where you had shot Caitlyn, correct? Yes. And you told me you did, exactly. Mm-hmm. You described exactly where on her head she was shot, correct? Yes. On the side of her head in a place where it was covered by her hair. [00:41:01] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:41:02] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. You know, Mr. Duran, you testimony today -- I just want to go through a couple of things in there. Before we get to that. After you shot Caitlyn, that's when you began loading the car, correct? [00:41:37] Speaker 3: Afterwards, yes. [00:41:39] Speaker 2: You packed food and water? [00:41:41] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:41:42] Speaker 2: You took pillows and blankets? Yes. Yes. You took multiple changes of clothing for you, correct? [00:41:49] Speaker 3: I just grabbed clothes, yes. [00:41:51] Speaker 2: Multiple changes, correct? Multiple shirts, multiple sweatshirts? [00:41:54] Speaker 3: Sure. Yes. [00:41:56] Speaker 2: You grabbed multiple changes of clothing for Elwin? [00:41:59] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:42:00] Speaker 2: You grabbed multiple changes of clothing for Valen? [00:42:03] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:42:04] Speaker 2: You testified a day that you took your work computer because that's a necessity. [00:42:08] Speaker 3: That's -- yeah, that's why I'm guessing I grabbed it, yeah. [00:42:13] Speaker 2: Because you were running, right? [00:42:15] Speaker 3: I needed to get out of the area immediately, yes. [00:42:19] Speaker 2: Because you had murdered Caitlyn? [00:42:21] Speaker 3: No, absolutely not. I had -- I guess I should clarify, yes, I had shot her. But at no point did I ever, ever think that it was murder. No. [00:42:34] Speaker 2: But you ran? [00:42:37] Speaker 3: I got out of the area and made sure that my kids were safe, not just physically but mentally. [00:42:44] Speaker 2: Well, after you shot Caitlyn, there was no danger in the house, right? Just her body on the couch. Yes. [00:42:51] Speaker 3: But, again, I didn't know if people were coming or what was going on. [00:42:56] Speaker 2: You didn't know if the police were going to come, right? [00:42:59] Speaker 3: I guess, yeah. [00:43:02] Speaker 2: And so you turned off the lights, you deadbolted your apartment, and you fled, correct? [00:43:09] Speaker 3: Well, again, I don't even really remember doing that. But if you say that happened, then sure, okay. [00:43:18] Speaker 2: Well, you heard the testimony of the people who went into your house, correct? Yes. [00:43:23] Speaker 3: I did. [00:43:24] Speaker 2: But there was a deadbolt that they had to ram your door open. [00:43:27] Speaker 3: Well, again, I don't even know if I had the key to the actual doorknob, but the deadbolt was just how you locked that door. Okay. [00:43:34] Speaker 2: But it was very important to make sure that it was locked in those moments that you left, correct? [00:43:38] Speaker 3: No. I guess it was just something that I did. You leave the house, you shut the lights off, and you lock the door. [00:43:46] Speaker 2: Okay. [00:43:47] Speaker ?: Mm-hmm. So you fled. [00:43:49] Speaker 2: You drove south, correct? [00:43:51] Speaker 3: I'm like southwest, yes, yes. [00:43:56] Speaker 2: And after you called your parents, you went dark, correct? Yes. And you did that so you wouldn't be found, correct? [00:44:05] Speaker 3: Because I wanted to spend more time with my kids and make sure that they were mentally okay. Okay. [00:44:14] Speaker 2: And you knew the police were gonna look for you because there was a dead body in your apartment, correct? [00:44:18] Speaker 3: I did, yes, yes. [00:44:20] Speaker 2: Now, that phone call with your parents, your testimony today, is that all you did was say we're safe, I killed Caitlin, and that was it, correct? [00:44:30] Speaker 3: I mean, there was a little bit more, but yes, essentially, yes. [00:44:34] Speaker 2: Well, there was a lot more, right, because it was a 13 minute phone call, correct? [00:44:38] Speaker ?: I mean, okay. [00:44:39] Speaker 2: I mean, you saw the records, you have those. Yes. You spoke to your mom for 13 minutes before you turned off your phone and went dark, correct? Okay. [00:44:48] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:44:49] Speaker 2: Even after you decided to turn yourself in, you didn't call the police and say, hey, I'm gonna come turn myself in, correct? [00:45:06] Speaker 3: Well, at no point did I call the police, no. [00:45:11] Speaker 2: And you never actually went to the police, correct? [00:45:15] Speaker ?: No. [00:45:16] Speaker 3: You drove past police barracks, correct? [00:45:19] Speaker 2: Yes. And in your statement to police, you said it was because you were gonna have breakfast with your girls, right? But you'd already had breakfast with them in New York, according to your testimony today, correct? [00:45:34] Speaker 3: Well, brunch, because the time it, I don't remember exactly what time that was, but like 10:30 or 11:00. [00:45:42] Speaker 2: You wanted to delay being taught being with the police or turning yourself in for as long as you could, correct? [00:45:50] Speaker 3: Not as long as I could, but it's probably fair to say that, yes, I was delaying it. [00:45:57] Speaker 2: Now, Mr. Durham, before you left your apartment, after you'd shot and killed, after you'd shot Caitlin, did you check to see if she was still alive? [00:46:05] Speaker 3: I, I knew she was not, but no, I, I never, I never specifically went up to her body, no. [00:46:14] Speaker 2: So while you were packing this house over the course of minutes to load your car, you never checked to see if just maybe there was a chance she was alive? [00:46:23] Speaker 3: I, I knew she, that she was not. [00:46:29] Speaker 2: You never called 911 just to be sure, to get an ambulance to protect the mother of your children, Caitlin, who you were so devastated about having shot, correct? [00:46:40] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:46:44] Speaker 2: Her being dead is what you wanted when you pulled the trigger, correct? Absolutely not. Well, you're a Marine, you're trained in using a gun, correct? Yes. You know that the only reason to point a gun at somebody is to kill them, correct? [00:46:57] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:46:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:46:59] Speaker 2: So when you fired, that's what you wanted? No. [00:47:02] Speaker 3: All, all I was thinking of was Elowen. My focus was Elowen. My entire mindset was save Elowen. This was not, this was not about Caitlin. [00:47:14] Speaker 2: Mr. Duran, you were saving Elowen from being squeezed too tight, correct? They were being pulled away from you, correct? [00:47:21] Speaker 3: From being hurt, yes. [00:47:27] Speaker 2: And you've indicated here that it was your Marine training that kicked in, correct? It was, yes. And your Marine training tells you that when you point a gun at somebody, it's to kill, correct? [00:47:38] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:47:39] Speaker 2: So the end result that you knew would happen when you pointed that gun at Caitlin was that you were going to kill her, correct? [00:47:48] Speaker 3: In a very, very basic sense, I guess so, yes. [00:47:54] Speaker 2: You didn't shoot to wound Caitlin, did you? [00:47:57] Speaker 3: No. [00:47:58] Speaker 2: You didn't shoot her in the arm? No. You didn't shoot her in the leg? [00:48:03] Speaker 3: No. [00:48:04] Speaker 2: You shot her in the head because that would kill her, correct? [00:48:09] Speaker ?: Sure, yes. [00:48:10] Speaker 2: I mean, Mr. Duran, your defense here today that you want to be justified is that you acted purposefully with deadly force to kill her because she was hurting Elowen. That's your defense, right? [00:48:28] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:48:30] Speaker 2: But yet you're still hesitating as to whether that's what you wanted. [00:48:34] Speaker 3: Because I didn't want, I never wanted Caitlin dead at any point. [00:48:40] Speaker 2: Except as a Marine, you knew the moment you pulled your gun and aimed it at her that that's what your goal would be, correct? [00:48:47] Speaker 3: The goal was to eliminate a threat to my child. [00:48:51] Speaker 2: The goal was to eliminate the child's mother, correct? [00:48:54] Speaker 3: The goal was to eliminate a threat that was holding my child hostage and hurting her in front of me. [00:49:01] Speaker 2: That person was your child's mother who had just as many rights to hold that child as you did, correct? [00:49:07] Speaker 3: Tragically, yes. Yes. [00:49:38] Speaker 2: Mr. Durant, in your testimony, well, again, your defense is that you shot Caitlin and that it was justified, correct? [00:49:48] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:49:49] Speaker 2: We heard the detailed statement you sat here with us and listened of your two-hour interview with officers, right? [00:49:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:49:56] Speaker 2: And you've also testified here today? [00:49:59] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:49:59] Speaker 2: At no time during that statement you gave to officers, right after this incident happened, did you tell the police that you had to kill Caitlin to protect Elowen, did you? [00:50:10] Speaker 3: I didn't specifically say that, but with me describing the event, I described that. [00:50:20] Speaker 2: You described that Caitlin wouldn't let go of Elowen, correct? [00:50:24] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:25] Speaker 2: You described that she was holding Elowen in a bear hug, correct? [00:50:29] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:29] Speaker 2: You told officers that her not letting go was the tick that caused you to shoot her. [00:50:35] Speaker 3: No. The tick was her screaming. I think in the interview I said her yelling. [00:50:43] Speaker 2: Well, isn't it fair to say that during the interview you actually never said that Elowen yelled horse freaks, correct? [00:50:49] Speaker 3: I did say that. I said, I think specifically I said what is big in my head is Elowen yelling. [00:50:58] Speaker 2: Well, that was after the movie. [00:50:58] Speaker 3: Or screaming or yelling. [00:51:00] Speaker 2: That was after you fired. [00:51:01] Speaker 3: No. That was just before. [00:51:15] Speaker 2: Courts and diligence. [00:51:16] Speaker 1: Yes. Thank you. [00:51:47] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:52:17] Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. [00:53:17] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:53:47] Speaker 2: I'm going to show you what's marked for identification purposes of State's Exhibit 27. I believe that Mr. Dern, you're welcome to look through this, but most of the actual incident starts on about page 58. Moving forward, once you go ahead and look through that transcript and tell me or tell us or look up when you find where you told the police that Elowen screamed before you shot and you're going to go ahead and look through that transcript and you're going to show you what's going on. [00:54:41] Speaker ?: You're going to go ahead and look through that transcript and you're going to show you what's going on. So, you're going to go ahead and look through that transcript and you're going to show you what's going on. So, you're going to show you what's going on. You're going to show you what's going on. You're going to show you what's going on. So, you're going to show you what's going on. So, you're going to show you what's going on. So, you're going to show you what's going on. So, you're going to show you what's going on. So, you're going to show you what's going on. So, you're going to show you what's going on. So, you're going to show you what's going on. So, you're going to show you what's going on. [00:55:24] Speaker 3: Are you sure this is the right area? Is this where it is? [00:55:34] Speaker 2: You're welcome to look through the entire transcript, sir, if you want to find it. [00:55:38] Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure my attorneys know. I just don't know if you're expecting me to go through the entire thing right now to find it. [00:55:56] Speaker 2: Well, Mr. Dern, you're saying that you told the police that, correct? Yes. On page 59 of the transcript, actually it's really the bottom of page 59, you described the shooting, correct? You say I grab it, chamber it, grab Elowen, pull her back and shot, correct? Yes. And then you say it was very immediate. Obviously, what was big in my head is Elowen went yelling. She definitely heard it. And you're describing her reaction after the gunshot, correct? No. [00:56:29] Speaker 3: No. That's what I'm talking about. Obviously, what is big in my head is Elowen yelling. [00:56:40] Speaker 2: So, let's just follow through to page 59 of the transcript. It reads, "After a couple of times of me trying to grab Elowen and her not letting go, it was very fast." Very fast. [00:56:53] Speaker 4: Very good. Very good, Your Honor. [00:56:55] Speaker ?: Very fast. Very good. Very fast. Very good, Your Honor. Very fast. Very fast. Very good, Your Honor. Very fast. Very fast. Very fast. Very fast. Very good, Your Honor. Thank you. Thank you. [00:58:22] Speaker 2: Thank you. [00:58:52] Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you. [00:58:56] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:59:00] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:59:02] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. [00:59:02] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:59:04] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:59:06] Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:59:12] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:59:16] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:59:22] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:59:26] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:59:28] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:59:28] Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:59:44] Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. [00:59:48] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:59:48] Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:59:54] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:59:54] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:59:56] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:59:58] Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. [01:00:02] Speaker ?: Thank you. [01:00:02] Speaker 2: Thank you. [01:00:04] Speaker 3: You were hoping she didn't see anything? Later, yes. [01:00:13] Speaker 2: At no time during the interview did you tell the police that you had killed Caitlin because she was going to be kidnapping Elowen, correct? [01:00:26] Speaker 3: I had suspicions, but I didn't know of any specific plan, no. [01:00:34] Speaker 2: And you didn't tell the police about those suspicions that she was going to kidnap Elowen, correct? [01:00:43] Speaker 3: The point of me talking about the previous situation with Valen in Nevada, that was part of me explaining that. [01:00:55] Speaker 2: At no time did you tell the police that at the moment, right before you shot Caitlin, that Elowen was being hurt by Caitlin, correct? [01:01:04] Speaker 3: I did. [01:01:06] Speaker 2: You told the police that Caitlin had Elowen in a bear hug, correct? [01:01:10] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:01:11] Speaker 2: That Elowen was crying possibly because you were arguing, correct? [01:01:16] Speaker 3: I said because she was being hurt and because of the arguing prior to. [01:01:22] Speaker 2: You said because Caitlin was holding her tightly, correct? [01:01:31] Speaker 3: I mean, sure, yes. [01:01:34] Speaker 2: In fact, you told police that Caitlin had never threatened to harm Elowen, correct? [01:01:38] Speaker 3: She never directly threatened to hurt Elowen, no. But she was still doing it in front of my eyes. [01:01:45] Speaker 2: Today, in fact, you've testified and used the word hostage. And you've testified to say that Caitlin was holding Elowen hostage in front of you in your home, correct? [01:01:54] Speaker 3: And yes, because even though I was describing a hostage situation and Sergeant McLaughlin knew I was because he asked me about hostage type situations, I never actually said the word hostage. So I'm clarifying that yes, I'm specifically saying hostage, yes. [01:02:18] Speaker 2: Great. Even when Sergeant McLaughlin gave you that opportunity, you didn't say it, correct? [01:02:22] Speaker 3: No, I did. I said yes. [01:02:25] Speaker 2: Well, he only asked you if you had training in hostages, correct? That's the question you were answering. [01:02:30] Speaker 3: If I had trained in hostage type situations, and yes. Meaning, yes, this was what was going on. And yes, I've had training in this type of situations. [01:02:44] Speaker 2: Now, today, Mr. Duren, you've testified that before you shot Caitlin, you begged her to let go of Elowen, correct? [01:02:52] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:02:53] Speaker 2: You never once told the police that during your interview with them, did you? [01:02:58] Speaker 3: That would be weird if I didn't. [01:03:02] Speaker 2: You testified today that while you were trying to take Elowen from Caitlin, Caitlin braced her foot on the living room table and pulled back, correct? [01:03:12] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:03:12] Speaker 2: You never told the police that information during your interview, did you? [01:03:16] Speaker 3: This is the whole point of me being here right now, is to be as clear and concise as possible, to add details so that there is no more misinterpretations of what I said. [01:03:30] Speaker 2: Well, Mr. Duren, you wanted to talk to the police, correct? [01:03:35] Speaker 3: I did, yes. [01:03:36] Speaker 2: You knew that you were talking to them about the murder of Caitlin Nafsinger, correct? [01:03:39] Speaker 3: At no point did I ever think that this was a murder. [01:03:47] Speaker 2: You knew it was important when you talked to the police to tell them everything, correct? [01:03:52] Speaker 3: Well, even he said that there was a million things that I would probably think of to say. [01:03:57] Speaker 2: And those million things are actually the details now of this offense, correct? [01:04:02] Speaker 3: I take my oath right now very, very seriously, and I'm telling the truth. [01:04:08] Speaker 2: You've testified today that on the day that you shot her, Caitlin was demanding that you pay her more money. You said an unheard of amount, correct? [01:04:18] Speaker 3: A substantial amount, yes. [01:04:21] Speaker 2: You didn't tell the police that information either, did you? [01:04:28] Speaker 3: Did I not? I mean, I was certainly talking about her threatening. I guess I don't directly recall if I said if it was specifically about money or not. [01:04:51] Speaker 2: When you say threatening, you mean her threat to call the police and take the kids, correct? [01:04:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:05:04] Speaker 2: Today, you've testified that on the day that you shot her, Caitlin told you that you'd never see your children again, correct? [01:05:11] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:05:12] Speaker 2: You never told the police that during your interview with them, did you? [01:05:18] Speaker 3: I guess I do not recall. I don't recall. [01:05:28] Speaker 2: In fact, you told the police about that money situation that Caitlin, on the day before you shot her, said that she told you you needed, and I don't know how to phrase this, so give me one second, that Caitlin told you that you needed to sell your car to give her the money from that sale, correct? [01:06:04] Speaker 3: Oh, that, are you talking that? That day. That day? Yes. Yes. That, yes, if I couldn't get her that money, that then I needed to sell my car and give her the money from the car. [01:06:18] Speaker 2: You didn't tell the police that information either, did you? [01:06:21] Speaker 3: Again, I'm, I'm, the purpose of me being here is to be as clear and concise and give every detail that I can possibly give so that there cannot be any more misinterpretations. [01:06:39] Speaker 2: One moment, honor. [01:06:40] Speaker 1: Yes. [01:06:51] Speaker ?: One moment, honor. Thank you. Thank you.