Beverly McCallum's Fiery Cross-Examination: Fugitive Wife Murder Trial

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Mr. Lloyd. [00:00:07] Speaker 2: Thank you, Your Honor. So I'm confused and I don't want to be disrespectful. Is English your second language? No. No? Okay. You seem to speak Italian. Why is that? [00:00:25] Speaker 3: I speak several different languages, sir. [00:00:28] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm not understanding a word you're saying. [00:00:30] Speaker 3: I speak several different languages. [00:00:33] Speaker 2: You speak several different languages, and so Italian is the dialogue you're giving us today? [00:00:38] Speaker 3: I don't have a dialogue. [00:00:40] Speaker 2: Okay. So I want to take you back. You meet Robert in 1998. When do you marry him? No. [00:00:52] Speaker 3: I don't meet Robert in 1998. [00:00:55] Speaker 2: You meet him in 1988? [00:00:57] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:00:58] Speaker 2: And when do you marry him? [00:01:02] Speaker 3: I haven't married Robert. [00:01:03] Speaker 2: You never married Robert? [00:01:04] Speaker 3: No. [00:01:05] Speaker 2: When was Cicely born? [00:01:07] Speaker 3: Cicely was born in 1993. [00:01:10] Speaker 2: 1993. And then when did Robert go to jail? [00:01:14] Speaker 3: Which time? [00:01:16] Speaker 2: The last time. [00:01:18] Speaker 3: 2000? 2000. 2000. [00:01:21] Speaker 2: 2000. And he got out in 2002? [00:01:25] Speaker ?: 2001. [00:01:26] Speaker 3: 2001. [00:01:27] Speaker 2: 2001. And isn't it true that Robert actually told you, when he was getting out, that he wanted you to move someplace that would be away from the people he had been dealing with before? [00:01:40] Speaker 3: No. No. [00:01:43] Speaker 2: No. So for some unknown reason, you just then ended up in Charlotte? No. [00:01:49] Speaker 3: Of course not. My family's there. I have like 60 or so family members there. My mother was there. When I moved there, my mother was there. When I moved there, my mother was there. My mother left there in February. I'm sorry. I just asked a question. February. [00:02:03] Speaker 2: Yeah. So let me ask another question. Okay. So you moved here to Charlotte, because Robert says pick a place that's away from the people I want to be, I don't want to be. [00:02:14] Speaker 3: No. Robert was in prison. [00:02:16] Speaker 2: Robert was in prison. But he was actually released to come here to Charlotte, correct? [00:02:21] Speaker 3: No. Not before I moved here, sir. [00:02:23] Speaker 2: You were here before he was released, correct? [00:02:26] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:02:27] Speaker 2: Okay. So he was released to come to you in Charlotte, correct? [00:02:31] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:02:32] Speaker 2: And the reason that he came here was because he said, "I no longer want to be part of the past." [00:02:39] Speaker 3: I don't want to be part of the- No, sir. That's not true. No, sir. [00:02:43] Speaker 2: That's not true. No. That's the story you told everybody. He was a bad man, right? He was still a bad man. [00:02:49] Speaker 3: I never told anybody Robert was a bad man. [00:02:52] Speaker 2: So when Diane, your neighbor, came in the other day and testified and said, "Beverly told me not to talk to him, he's a bad man." [00:03:02] Speaker 3: She didn't say that. She didn't say that, sir. [00:03:04] Speaker 2: Yes, she did. [00:03:05] Speaker 3: No, you checked the record, sir. She didn't say that. Oh, okay. So you never said that to her, is that correct? She said I told her he was mean. He didn't like Diane and Diane was a nice person. Oh, and so- And I spoke to Diane and she came in the house regularly. Okay. Freely. [00:03:19] Speaker 2: So you never told anyone he was a bad man, correct? [00:03:23] Speaker 3: No. [00:03:24] Speaker ?: So, basically only Cicely. [00:03:27] Speaker 2: Only Cicely. No. Now Cicely's testified that you were the matriarch of the family. You were the one in charge. [00:03:35] Speaker 3: Most of Cicely's life I was, yes. He wasn't there in the house. [00:03:41] Speaker 2: He wasn't there in the house. Well, in reality, Deneen's dad wasn't Roberto, correct? No. Neither was Tasha's. No. So, basically only Cicely. [00:03:52] Speaker 3: Only Cicely what? [00:03:54] Speaker 2: Only Cicely's father was Robert. He was the only one, correct? So when you talk about that he wasn't around all the time, look at me. You don't need to look at the judge. [00:04:05] Speaker 3: I need to ask the judge something, if I may. I'm confused. [00:04:08] Speaker 4: You can't talk to me, but if you need a question, restate it or you don't understand. [00:04:14] Speaker 3: Okay, yes, I'm confused. I don't understand why you keep saying Robert is the only one for what? [00:04:21] Speaker 2: Well, you keep saying that Robert wasn't around most of the time. [00:04:26] Speaker 3: No, I don't keep saying that. I don't keep saying Sir Robert was not around. He was in prison. [00:04:32] Speaker 2: Right. [00:04:33] Speaker 3: That's clear. [00:04:34] Speaker 2: So he wasn't the patriarch of the family. It was all you, correct? Yes. You were the boss of the family. [00:04:40] Speaker 3: I was the parent. [00:04:42] Speaker 2: You were the mom. Yes. They listened to what you said to do. [00:04:46] Speaker 3: They're supposed to. [00:04:47] Speaker 2: Yes. Yes, you are. [00:04:49] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:04:50] Speaker 2: And so that's what they did. Isn't that right? [00:04:52] Speaker 3: I mean, they're supposed to, yes. And for normal situations, bringing up your child, I know I was taught to respect my mother. And whatever she asked me to do, I did. Well, let's go to this question. [00:05:06] Speaker 2: Your Honor, I'd ask that you inform the witness that she should answer the questions and not just go off on diatribes on her own. [00:05:15] Speaker 1: Okay. When Mr. Lloyd asks you a question, you have to answer that question. If there's something that needs to be elaborated on, Mr. Havis will get an opportunity to come back. So please just answer the question that Mr. Lloyd asked you, okay? [00:05:30] Speaker 3: Good. As long as he, I will try not to be confused. No, no, no. [00:05:34] Speaker 1: No, no, no. Ms. McCallum. Yes, ma'am. There's no Yavis. This is cross-examination. When Mr. Lloyd asks you a question, you answer it, period, okay? Yes. Yes. Very good. Go ahead, Mr. Lloyd. [00:05:47] Speaker 2: Thank you, Honor. So your daughters were supposed to listen to what you said to do, correct? [00:05:53] Speaker 3: In fairness. [00:05:55] Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I'm not understanding. [00:05:57] Speaker 3: In fairness, yes. [00:06:00] Speaker 2: Let's go to Deneen. Now, you advised the jury earlier that Robert advised you that Deneen would have to move out because he had just been informed that Deneen was gay. [00:06:14] Speaker 3: That she was gay and that they were also on drugs. [00:06:19] Speaker 2: And so at that point, you tell Deneen, oh, he knows. He knows you're gay. [00:06:26] Speaker 3: No, I asked her if she wanted to. [00:06:29] Speaker 2: You asked her. Isn't it true you knew Deneen was gay? She said no. No. You knew her partner Jamie. You knew it before Robert got out of prison. Isn't that true? [00:06:41] Speaker 3: No, sir. No. [00:06:43] Speaker 2: Everybody in your family knew that Deneen was gay. Isn't that also true? No, sir. [00:06:48] Speaker 3: Everybody found out about Deneen. How about you look at me? [00:06:50] Speaker 2: How about you look at me and answer my questions? That would be what you need to do. Okay. [00:06:55] Speaker 3: Do I need to look at you, too? [00:06:57] Speaker 5: She doesn't technically have to look at me. [00:06:59] Speaker 2: Understandable, but I can't understand her if she does look at me. [00:07:02] Speaker 3: Okay, I prefer not to look at you. I prefer to look at the people that I need to talk to. How about this? [00:07:07] Speaker 2: It's a yes or no question. You knew Deneen was gay, did you? No. No. Your own mother knew Deneen was gay, and that's why Deneen had to leave her house, correct? [00:07:19] Speaker 3: There was no Deneen in my mother's house, no. [00:07:22] Speaker 2: Deneen actually had to come back and live with you because she had been kicked out of her house for being gay, correct? [00:07:28] Speaker 3: She was never in my mother's house, so. [00:07:33] Speaker 2: So when Chris testified that that's why Deneen ended back up at your house, that was a lie? Is that what you're saying? [00:07:39] Speaker 3: I presume it was. [00:07:43] Speaker 2: Now, Cicely testified that when you, when she was growing up and you was the mom, you were in charge. There was no kidding around. Fair to say? [00:07:57] Speaker 3: No. [00:08:02] Speaker 2: No, that's not fair to say? [00:08:04] Speaker 3: No. [00:08:05] Speaker 2: So the quietness that you provide today, is that how quiet you speak all the time, or is that for the jury today? [00:08:11] Speaker 3: No, absolutely not. I do not speak quietly. [00:08:14] Speaker 2: But you're doing it today. [00:08:16] Speaker 3: I mean, I'm very, I mean, I'm trying to speak. [00:08:27] Speaker 2: I'm sorry. [00:08:28] Speaker 3: I'm trying to speak to them the way that I think they need to be, to hear me. I mean, I don't need to scream. I'm trying to be clear. No. [00:08:37] Speaker ?: No. No. No. [00:08:38] Speaker 2: No. No. No. [00:08:41] Speaker ?: No. [00:08:41] Speaker 2: No. No. No. No. No. No. [00:08:47] Speaker ?: No. No. [00:08:47] Speaker 2: No. No. No. No. No. No. [00:08:53] Speaker 3: No. Never. [00:08:55] Speaker 2: No. [00:08:56] Speaker ?: No. [00:08:56] Speaker 2: couple of months before Robert just all of a sudden came up not there. Isn't it also true? Robert didn't even sleep in the bed with you. Wow. That's not true. So if Cicely were to come in here and say that for the couple of months before her father actually ended up being missing, he no longer stayed in your bedroom because he didn't want anything to do with you. No. Isn't that true? No. Isn't it true that the only reason he was there was to actually be there for his child, Cicely? No. So if Cicely came in and testified to that, that'd be a lie as well. Yes, she would never testify to that. Oh, she wouldn't? No. What if she did? Bring her. I'm sorry. Bring her. You claimed you worried about your daughter's mental health, but your answer today is, well, bring her. Doesn't seem like a mother who actually cares about her daughter's mental health, does it? [00:09:59] Speaker 3: You are asking her to lie. That is a lie. That would be a lie. [00:10:02] Speaker 2: Well, no, actually, we ask people to actually take the truth on the, tell the truth on the stand. [00:10:06] Speaker 3: Okay, but she wouldn't say that. It would be a lie. [00:10:09] Speaker 2: Well, then let's talk about the truth that you've decided to expound today. [00:10:14] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:10:15] Speaker 2: So your testimony is, and if you'll put that first photo up. Your testimony is, is that on the day that Robert goes missing, he goes to his basement, which he does all the time, correct? [00:10:31] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:10:32] Speaker 2: But on that day, you've sent Deneen and Chris down to talk to him because Robert's upset. [00:10:43] Speaker 3: I didn't send them down then. [00:10:46] Speaker 2: You didn't send them down? No. Did you not just say on direct that you said, Deneen, if you want to deal with this, you better deal with it today? [00:10:55] Speaker 3: Yeah, she needed to talk to him today. [00:10:57] Speaker 2: Talk to him today. [00:10:58] Speaker 3: Yeah, she could have, she could have, she could have, she could have, she could have talked to him when he entered the house with the children. She could have talked to him when he woke up from bed. She could have talked to him any time. [00:11:12] Speaker 2: But it's just funny enough that he ends up in the basement is where Deneen and Chris decide to talk to him. Is that right? [00:11:19] Speaker 3: I suppose. [00:11:21] Speaker 2: And you being the matriarch of the family, you being the one that everybody is supposed to listen to, you don't get involved with this conversation. Is that what you're saying? [00:11:30] Speaker 3: No, absolutely not. [00:11:32] Speaker 2: Absolutely not. Because now you're nothing. You have no responsibilities. It's all on Robert at this point. Is that correct? [00:11:41] Speaker 3: I think you don't understand foreign men. I think you have a problem with that. [00:11:46] Speaker 2: I have a problem with that. [00:11:48] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:11:48] Speaker 2: Oh, okay. [00:11:49] Speaker 3: When you are... [00:11:51] Speaker 2: I don't believe I asked a question. Oh, okay is not. [00:11:54] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:11:56] Speaker 2: So you have Bev, excuse me, Deneen and Chris go into the basement to talk to Robert. Or they go into the basement and you have no concerns. [00:12:08] Speaker 5: Oh. [00:12:09] Speaker 2: Robert is a man that you said was very stern. Is that correct? Yes. Cicely said that he was very stern. Yes. But you're comfortable with sending Deneen and Chris into the basement. [00:12:20] Speaker 3: I didn't send them down there. [00:12:22] Speaker 2: You know they went down there, correct? [00:12:24] Speaker 3: Yeah, they often went down there with him. [00:12:27] Speaker 2: Oh, they often went down there with them. Matter of fact, you often went down there as well. No. So if I bring in... Well, who were the people that you said went to the basement with Robert? [00:12:38] Speaker 3: Armin, Mark, Gina. [00:12:42] Speaker 2: Gina. [00:12:43] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:12:44] Speaker 2: So if Gina were to testify and say that you went to the basement as well, is she now a liar? [00:12:49] Speaker 3: I don't think she could say that. [00:12:51] Speaker 2: What if she did? Would that make her a liar? Yes. Oh, okay. So pretty much, if everybody's not willing to follow the words that you've just told the jury today, then they must be liars. Is that what you're saying? [00:13:07] Speaker ?: No. [00:13:08] Speaker 2: Yes or no? [00:13:09] Speaker 3: I think everybody should tell the truth. [00:13:13] Speaker 2: So do I. [00:13:14] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:13:16] Speaker 2: So let's talk about that truth. [00:13:18] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:18] Speaker 2: So you go down the steps. [00:13:21] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:21] Speaker 2: And you say you only go down four steps each time. [00:13:25] Speaker 3: Four or five. [00:13:26] Speaker 2: Four or five. [00:13:27] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:29] Speaker 2: But on the third time, just out of nowhere, when you go downstairs, someone grabs your leg. [00:13:38] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:40] Speaker 2: And it's your testimony to the jury that it's a completely open area. Is that correct? Yes, it is. [00:13:49] Speaker 3: Oh, it was. [00:13:56] Speaker 2: So let's talk about the stairs. [00:13:59] Speaker 5: Yes. [00:14:01] Speaker 2: Now, Chris said that this area right here, where the paneling was, wasn't there in 2002. Would you agree with that? Yes. This white boards that came across, though, Chris said was there in 2002. Do you agree or not agree with that? [00:14:22] Speaker 3: No, I don't recall them being there at all. [00:14:25] Speaker 2: You don't agree with that at all? [00:14:27] Speaker 3: No. [00:14:28] Speaker 2: But yet, in 2015, 2016, Michigan State Police Crime Lab comes and does a search of your basement. [00:14:41] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:14:43] Speaker 2: And on 2016, they find blood on these two white boards. Okay. DNA consistent. [00:14:56] Speaker 3: I don't know. [00:14:58] Speaker 2: You don't know? [00:14:59] Speaker ?: No. [00:15:01] Speaker 2: So Chris was lying when he said those boards weren't there. [00:15:04] Speaker 3: I didn't see those boards there, sir, no. [00:15:07] Speaker 2: And so your testimony is that you took something. What was it you took? [00:15:12] Speaker 3: It was some kind of a handmade tool, it looks like to me. [00:15:22] Speaker 2: Would it help to draw it out? [00:15:26] Speaker 3: I didn't see it that much, but I suppose I could try. [00:15:31] Speaker 2: Well, was it something that was on the basement stairs all the time? [00:15:34] Speaker 3: It was on the stairs. [00:15:36] Speaker 2: What was it there? If you had seen it before, what was it that we were looking for? [00:15:40] Speaker 3: No, I never seen, I never had this thing before. I don't know what it is. [00:15:44] Speaker 2: Well, why don't you explain to the jury? What exactly did it look like? [00:15:48] Speaker 3: It looked like it was wood handled. Maybe, I don't know, this side. It had a white, some kind of a cloth wrapped around something like a, I don't know, like a, I don't know what it was. I don't know what it was. Like some kind of a... [00:16:19] Speaker 1: Ms. McCallum, you have to speak up. [00:16:22] Speaker 3: It was some, I'm sorry, it was like some kind of a, I don't know if it was a rock or some part of another tool or what it was. It was wrapped in a white cloth. It looked like tied. [00:16:38] Speaker 2: So you had never seen this item before, but it just ends up on the stairs. [00:16:43] Speaker 3: It was on the stairs. There was many things on the stairs. [00:16:46] Speaker 2: And you agree with me that these stairs are rather sharp. [00:16:50] Speaker 3: What do you mean sharp, like deep? [00:16:52] Speaker 2: Like? [00:16:53] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:16:53] Speaker 2: Goes down. So you're saying, and I believe, can you bring that other one back up? So you're saying that you're four steps down when somebody decides to grab you. [00:17:14] Speaker 3: My foot, yes, my ankle. [00:17:18] Speaker 2: Who grabbed your ankle? [00:17:19] Speaker 3: I didn't know at that moment, but... [00:17:22] Speaker 2: So you have no idea who grabbed your ankle, correct? [00:17:26] Speaker 3: No. [00:17:27] Speaker 2: Then how do you assume that it must have been Robert? [00:17:31] Speaker 3: No. After I picked, after I was unbalanced and I picked up the two and went like this, Robert was right there. [00:17:40] Speaker 2: Okay. Where was Robert standing? How was he facing you? [00:17:45] Speaker 3: He wasn't facing me. He was here. [00:17:50] Speaker 2: I can't see what here is behind you. [00:17:54] Speaker 3: He was back here. Back here. [00:17:59] Speaker 2: Back where? So back behind you. Where behind you? Facing you? Away from you? [00:18:06] Speaker 3: When I looked, he was facing me and his face was bleeding. [00:18:11] Speaker 2: So if Robert's facing you and you are down towards the left. [00:18:16] Speaker 3: Towards the left. [00:18:18] Speaker 2: And then you take your arm backwards. And which side of the face do you hit him on? [00:18:24] Speaker 3: This side. [00:18:25] Speaker 2: You managed to hit him on the left side of the face. Yes. With an action this way. [00:18:31] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:18:33] Speaker 2: With boards that supposedly weren't there at that time. Is that correct? [00:18:36] Speaker 3: I mean, listen. Give me the other picture. I don't know about these boards. I don't know about these boards. And I don't know where these boards are opposed to. If this brown board, you're saying if this brown board was gone? [00:18:57] Speaker 2: Well, you tell me. You lived there. [00:18:59] Speaker 3: I don't recall any of those boards there, sir. [00:19:02] Speaker 2: So you don't recall them? [00:19:02] Speaker 3: I mean, they may have been leaning around there. I don't know. They may be somewhere else. I don't recall anything being there. [00:19:10] Speaker 2: You'd agree with me to go to the stairs, though, correct? [00:19:13] Speaker 3: It is that way, yes. [00:19:15] Speaker 2: And you had to reach down and grab something, and then you threw your arm backwards? [00:19:20] Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. [00:19:24] Speaker 2: And then you're told by Robert to go back upstairs? [00:19:27] Speaker 3: Yes. He yelled at me. [00:19:32] Speaker 2: Nothing like, I'm sorry, honey. I didn't mean to, honey. [00:19:36] Speaker 3: I asked him. I asked him, oh, whoa, whoa. You know what's going on? He said, just get, get, get, get, get. He was, you know, speaking. Spanish. And he told me, just get my butt up there now. [00:19:53] Speaker 2: Third time you come down, you've come down two other times. [00:19:58] Speaker 3: That was the third time. [00:19:58] Speaker 2: But the third time you come down, somebody touches you, and your response to somebody touching you is to grab an item and to hit them. [00:20:08] Speaker 3: No. That's what you did, correct? I did not grab an item to hit anybody. I did not grab an item to hit anybody. [00:20:17] Speaker 2: So Robert sends you upstairs, and your response to that is to just go lay down. [00:20:26] Speaker 3: I put the rest of the food in the containers in the refrigerator. I checked on the girls. They were going on the downside, and I went to the bedroom. Yes, sir. [00:20:42] Speaker 2: And I'm confused about that, because on direct, you said that at 6 o'clock was the time you had dinner. Is that right? [00:20:49] Speaker 3: No, I never said that. [00:20:52] Speaker 2: 6 o'clock at night, we'd have dinner, and then the girls would take a bath. [00:20:58] Speaker 3: No, I never said that. [00:20:59] Speaker 2: You never said that. [00:21:00] Speaker 3: No. [00:21:02] Speaker 2: And then you said, oh, well, no, I mean 4.30 was the time that we had dinner. No. Is that not the time you had dinner now either? [00:21:09] Speaker 3: No, could we back that up to see? And sure, I didn't say we had dinner at 6 o'clock. [00:21:13] Speaker 2: Well, you just testified. Is that what you said or not? [00:21:15] Speaker 3: No. I said we had dinner at around 4.30 every day. Every day. It didn't change. [00:21:22] Speaker 2: And your daughters had to get up at 6 a.m. and take a shower, and they had to take a shower again at 6 o'clock at night. Is that right? [00:21:28] Speaker 3: Yes, yes. [00:21:31] Speaker 2: So you go up and just clean up. You're not worried about the fact that you just hit your husband with something? [00:21:38] Speaker 3: I was upset, of course. I was hoping that... [00:21:42] Speaker 2: And what did you do about it? [00:21:44] Speaker 3: What can I do? He told me to take my butt upstairs. [00:21:49] Speaker 2: You could have gone back downstairs and checked and said, Hey, honey, I love you. I just want to check on you. [00:21:54] Speaker 3: No, not with Robert, no. [00:21:57] Speaker 2: Oh, okay. [00:21:58] Speaker 3: No. [00:21:59] Speaker 2: But it's still okay that Deneen and Chris are down there. [00:22:03] Speaker 3: They were sitting in the back. Last time I seen them, they were sitting in the back. Just bring that picture up, please, sir. [00:22:11] Speaker 2: Well, no, because I'm the one asking the questions. Okay. They were still down there, and that was okay, but you couldn't be down there. His wife, you were something to him, right? I mean, you may not have been married, but were you a couple? [00:22:27] Speaker 3: No. I never sat down there with Robert. They sat down there with Robert. [00:22:31] Speaker 2: But Robert's been injured. [00:22:33] Speaker 3: Robert was injured, but it was a surface injury. It wasn't anything that was threatening. It wasn't like that. It was a surface injury, sir. [00:22:46] Speaker 2: So in reality, you didn't really strike him. [00:22:49] Speaker 3: No, in reality, I did strike him. Yes. [00:22:53] Speaker 2: But it wasn't such a strike that actually hurt him. [00:22:57] Speaker 3: I mean... [00:22:58] Speaker 2: You just said it was a surface injury. [00:23:01] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:23:02] Speaker 2: It was a surface injury. So it was a scratch. [00:23:04] Speaker 3: I mean, I have had injuries that are not scratches, and they're not detrimental to my health. I mean, or a threat to my health. [00:23:21] Speaker 2: So you go upstairs. Yes. [00:23:24] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. [00:23:24] Speaker 2: You clean up the kitchen. [00:23:26] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:23:28] Speaker 2: You go to your room because you're just a quiet person, and that's what you've been ordered to do. [00:23:35] Speaker 3: No, I would do that every day. [00:23:38] Speaker 2: Because you're not worried about whatever happened to Robert downstairs, correct? [00:23:43] Speaker 3: It was not detrimental. It was a surface thing. It was not something that maybe could be, with some alcohol, peroxide, maybe a bandaid, it would be okay. [00:24:01] Speaker 2: Ms. McCollum, let me ask you this. You saw the testimony from Dr. Colt, correct? [00:24:09] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. [00:24:11] Speaker 2: The injuries to Robert were a little more than superficial. Would you agree with that? [00:24:16] Speaker 3: Yeah, they were terrible. [00:24:17] Speaker 2: They were terrible? [00:24:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:24:21] Speaker 2: He died before he was burned up in Ottawa County. [00:24:25] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:24:26] Speaker 2: Yeah. He died in your basement, correct? [00:24:29] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:24:30] Speaker 2: You know that, correct? [00:24:32] Speaker 3: I know that, yes. [00:24:35] Speaker 2: You know that when. You knew it that day, correct? [00:24:39] Speaker 3: I knew that they had killed Robert that day, yes. [00:24:47] Speaker 2: The day you killed Robert. [00:24:48] Speaker 1: I can't hear what you said. [00:24:50] Speaker 3: I did not kill, I did not kill Robert. [00:24:53] Speaker 2: I believe you just said you killed Robert. [00:24:55] Speaker 3: No. I did not kill Robert. I would never say I killed Robert. I never killed Robert. [00:25:09] Speaker 4: We need to take a 20 minute break, ladies and gentlemen. [00:25:22] Speaker 1: Please remember you still can't talk to each other about the case. You can't do anything on social media, any internet, in any way. The only information you can get is when you're together as a jury. The prosecutor's here, the defendant's here, the defense is here, and I'm here. And we'll be back at about 10 after, okay? Thank you very much. All rise for the jury. And watch your step. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. Can she be back at 10 after? Can she be back at 10 after? Oh, I thought you needed 20 minutes. Oh, great. So as soon as she comes back, let us know, please, deputy, and then we'll start. That would be great. Thank you very much. I'll be back when the defendant is ready. [00:26:57] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:37:57] Speaker 3: Good afternoon. [00:37:58] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Good afternoon. [00:37:59] Speaker 1: Good afternoon. We are back on the record. Any reason we can't bring the jury in? Mr. Lloyd. [00:38:04] Speaker 2: You know, just out of curiosity, what are we doing now as far as, how long are we going to go on? [00:38:11] Speaker 1: Well, I think. [00:38:12] Speaker 2: Assuming I wasn't to shut up at all. [00:38:14] Speaker 1: Right. The jury is well rested, so I would like to continue at least until 3:30 if we need it and then figure out where we're at then. Is that fair? [00:38:26] Speaker 2: That is fine. [00:38:27] Speaker 1: Okay. Please bring the jury in. [00:38:29] Speaker ?: All right for the jury. [00:38:41] Speaker 3: All right for the jury. [00:38:59] Speaker 1: Mr. Lloyd, you may continue your cross-examination. [00:39:13] Speaker 2: During the time of 2002, you claimed you were an alcoholic, right? Yes. Your favorite drink was Wild Irish Rose? No. No? No. Doors White Label. I can't understand you again. [00:39:25] Speaker 3: Doors White Label. Doors White Label. [00:39:27] Speaker 2: Okay. What was the first word? [00:39:29] Speaker 3: Doors. [00:39:30] Speaker 2: Doors White Label. Oh, okay. What was the first word? Doors. [00:39:35] Speaker 3: Doors White Label. Oh, okay. [00:39:37] Speaker 2: And so, during that time, let's go back to, you're at the stairs. Where are Deneen and Chris at at that time? [00:39:46] Speaker 3: When I look back, I seen Robert and they were behind Robert all the way against the wall. [00:39:59] Speaker 1: I can't hear you. [00:40:01] Speaker 3: They were behind Robert all the way in the back behind me against the wall. [00:40:07] Speaker 2: So, you're able to see back, see Robert and see all the way against the wall. [00:40:11] Speaker 3: I can see through the stairs that every time that I come down there to look, I can see back there. Yes, clearly. [00:40:17] Speaker 2: So, they weren't in the area where Robert liked to hang out with just right over here off the front. [00:40:22] Speaker 3: That is where Robert hung out. [00:40:24] Speaker 2: But that's not where Deneen and Chris were? [00:40:29] Speaker 3: I don't know what you mean. [00:40:31] Speaker 2: Well, I don't know what you mean. That's what I'm trying to find out. [00:40:33] Speaker 3: I'm answering your questions correctly and direct. [00:40:36] Speaker 2: But you just stated that they were back behind Robert, which would have put them in a whole different area than where his actual desk and area were, correct? [00:40:47] Speaker 3: I don't know. That's where they were when I seen them. That is where they were when I seen them. They were sitting at the little table that was back there with a couple of chairs. And that is where the only light was back there in that area. That is where everybody went to smoke. That is where everybody sat. I don't know. That is strange to me when they come to this room. [00:41:09] Speaker 2: I know you're going to want to talk to the jury and that's what you're attempting to do. Yeah. But once again, my question was where were they? That was it. [00:41:17] Speaker 3: And I answered you. [00:41:18] Speaker 2: And then you kept going. Just so we understand each other. We'll bring up the sketch so that you can specifically tell us where. [00:41:26] Speaker 3: Perfect. [00:41:27] Speaker ?: And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:07] Speaker 2: And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:08] Speaker ?: And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:10] Speaker 2: And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:16] Speaker 3: And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:27] Speaker 2: And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:28] Speaker 3: And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:32] Speaker 2: And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:35] Speaker 3: And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:36] Speaker 2: And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:40] Speaker 3: And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:46] Speaker ?: And then we'll bring up the sketch. [00:42:57] Speaker 3: That's exactly right. [00:42:58] Speaker 2: Where was the laundry in your house? [00:43:00] Speaker 3: In the kitchen area. [00:43:03] Speaker 2: In the kitchen area. It wasn't in the basement. [00:43:05] Speaker 3: Right, right. Absolutely not. It was where the refrigerator was. On the side by the bathroom. That's the little area by the bathroom. That's where Diane did the job. [00:43:18] Speaker 2: So let's get back to the point. You go upstairs. You lay down. Or you clean your house. Or you do whatever you say you would do. I'm confused. At some point. Deneen just comes running upstairs. Saying she needs a bag. [00:43:37] Speaker 3: No. She came upstairs and she called my name. I remember. [00:43:41] Speaker 2: Did Deneen come upstairs asking for a bag? Yes or no? [00:43:45] Speaker 3: No. She asked for something. [00:43:47] Speaker 2: She asked for something. But you don't know what. No. [00:43:51] Speaker 3: I didn't. She wasn't making sense. [00:43:53] Speaker 2: And so at that point. I'm just going to keep asking questions. I'm sure you are. Because if I really want you to go on. I'll continue and just let you do that. Okay, thank you. [00:44:03] Speaker 3: Understand? I'm trying. [00:44:05] Speaker 2: Now, Cicely said that when you told her what happened in 2014, what you told her was is that you hit Robert on the stairs and that you immediately ran upstairs and told Deneen what had occurred. So that didn't occur, correct? I never told her to say that. I never told her to say that. Did that occur? Yes or no? No. No. And then in reality, you said that Deneen and her friends went downstairs and took care of Robert. No. [00:44:36] Speaker 3: Is that what you said? Yes or no? No. [00:44:39] Speaker 2: No. I didn't say that to Cicely. How about yes or no? Correct the witness? [00:44:43] Speaker 3: No. [00:44:44] Speaker ?: No. [00:44:45] Speaker 3: No. [00:44:46] Speaker 1: Ms. McCallum, when you're asked a yes or no question, you have to answer yes or no. Yes. Okay? Yes. Good. [00:44:58] Speaker 2: Go ahead, Mr. Lloyd. [00:44:59] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:45:01] Speaker 2: So you didn't tell Cicely that Deneen and her friends just went downstairs and took care of Robert, correct? [00:45:08] Speaker ?: No. [00:45:09] Speaker 2: So at this point, you don't know anything is happening bad to Robert, correct? No. You don't have any reason to believe that just because Deneen and Chris are downstairs that anything is going to happen to Robert, correct? No. Matter of fact, Robert is a tough guy and you don't have to worry about him, do you? [00:45:30] Speaker 3: I mean, he's... [00:45:31] Speaker 2: Yes or no? Do you need to worry about him or not? [00:45:34] Speaker 3: No, I shouldn't. [00:45:35] Speaker 2: Because he's a tough guy, right? Isn't that what you said? He's constant, yes. And so you lay down and you hear absolutely nothing in the basement. No, the girls and I didn't hear anything. You don't hear hammer swinging, you don't hear a bat pop, you don't hear any screaming, you don't hear any noise, you hear nothing. Absolutely nothing. Just complete quiet bliss in your house. It was quiet. I mean, I had the TV on, the girls had the TV on. And so you're not hearing Deneen and Chris and Robert arguing. No, I didn't hear, no. No argument. No, I didn't hear any. No fight. No, I didn't hear any of that. But all of a sudden, Deneen is upstairs saying, I need something. Yeah. And then you say, I don't understand you. I don't know. I don't know. And so she says, I need a bag, correct? Yeah. Now, is you, you're the boss of the family, but yet it's okay that your daughter is just yelling at you. Is that right? [00:46:47] Speaker 3: My daughters often yelled at me. [00:46:50] Speaker 2: Oh, so it's okay. That's, you just took that. Is that correct? [00:46:53] Speaker 3: I mean, children yell at their parents, sir. [00:46:56] Speaker 2: She's an adult. She's 21 at the time, correct? [00:46:59] Speaker 3: Exactly. Exactly. [00:47:00] Speaker 2: But it was okay that she just yelled at you, correct? [00:47:03] Speaker 3: She didn't seem like she was in her right mind. She didn't seem like she was in her right mind. [00:47:08] Speaker 2: And you, as a concerned parent, stopped her and said, what's wrong? Are you okay? [00:47:14] Speaker 3: No. I asked her, what is going on? What is going on? I kept asking her the same question, and she told me that they killed Robert. [00:47:28] Speaker 2: They killed Robert. [00:47:30] Speaker 3: She said, we. [00:47:31] Speaker 2: And let me ask you this. As the boss of the family, are your children going to go against your directions? If you tell them to do something, are they going to go against it? [00:47:42] Speaker 3: Yes, sure they have. [00:47:43] Speaker 2: Surely am. And so you were okay with your daughter just going downstairs and killing the father of your child. [00:47:53] Speaker 3: No. [00:47:56] Speaker 2: But it happened. That's what you said. It happened. It happened. And you did nothing about it. So you were okay with it. [00:48:04] Speaker 3: No, I was not okay with it. So I'm still not okay with it. [00:48:08] Speaker 2: You're still not. You're still not so okay that you'll leave Charlotte six weeks. That's what you said. Six weeks afterwards. [00:48:16] Speaker 5: Yeah. Six weeks. [00:48:17] Speaker 2: Within three days, Cicely says, you're living with another man. Is that correct? [00:48:22] Speaker 3: I know this person for 20 years. Is that correct? Yes or no? Yeah. One day. One day. You live with a man. Same day. [00:48:29] Speaker 2: Within a short period of time, you're marrying him and you're actually having another kid with him. Is that correct? [00:48:34] Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a 20-year relationship with that person. [00:48:38] Speaker 2: So that's how upset you are about Robert being gone. That within six weeks, you're down in Jamaica with your 20-year love life, creating another child and getting married. [00:48:51] Speaker 3: My family knew my son's father. My daughters knew my son's father very well. The question is, yes, no. They were there. [00:48:58] Speaker 2: That's how upset you were. Correct? No. You were so upset that you must run off to Jamaica and get married and have another kid. [00:49:07] Speaker 3: It wasn't like that. [00:49:08] Speaker 2: It wasn't like that. It wasn't like that because that wasn't the relationship that you and Robert had. Correct? Robert was only there because he loves Cicely, correct? [00:49:19] Speaker 3: No, that's not true. [00:49:20] Speaker 2: I mean, Cicely wasn't wrong. I mean, he never talked. Cicely wasn't wrong. I'll keep talking over you and I'm really good. And at some point, Judge Cunningham's going to yell at both of us. [00:49:30] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:49:31] Speaker 2: So, I'd suggest that you just stop when I'm talking. [00:49:34] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:49:35] Speaker 2: Cicely wasn't wrong when she said that when my dad came into my life, it was the first time that I actually got to have an actual, like, intact family. A normal family. Correct? [00:49:49] Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, yes. [00:49:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, because you, as a mother, didn't actually provide them with really normal families before that point. [00:50:00] Speaker 3: I don't know what you consider normal. [00:50:03] Speaker 2: Well, obviously, Cicely didn't feel that whatever you were doing before was normal because that was the first time in her life that she felt it. [00:50:10] Speaker 3: She clearly said she wasn't around her family. Is that what she said? She wasn't around her family. Is that what she said? Yes, she said that. [00:50:17] Speaker 2: That's what she said? Yes. You heard her testimony, correct? [00:50:21] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:22] Speaker 2: She told you that her dad loved her and that's a fair statement, correct? [00:50:27] Speaker 3: Uh-huh. Yes. [00:50:29] Speaker 2: He wanted to take care of her. He took her to school. You even said that. [00:50:34] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:34] Speaker 2: Took her to extracurricular activities. [00:50:38] Speaker 3: Yes, I did too. [00:50:39] Speaker 2: Did all of those things. [00:50:41] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:42] Speaker 2: But in reality, you settling down and becoming just a homemaker mom wasn't what you were cut out to do, correct? You didn't want to be a homemaker mom, did you? [00:50:56] Speaker 3: I am a homemaker mom. [00:51:00] Speaker 2: Not really what you were happy with, right? Robert was a born-again Christian, correct? [00:51:06] Speaker 3: No. He was not a born-again Christian. [00:51:09] Speaker 2: He was Christian, right? No. Was he Christian? Yes or no? No, stop. Was he Christian, yes or no? No. No. So how about the Bible? Yeah. When everybody talked about him reading the Bible, was that a lie too? [00:51:20] Speaker 3: That was his way to get down there. That Bible was his way to get down there. Robert is a Catholic. He's not a Christian, for one. For two, he doesn't. [00:51:30] Speaker 2: No offense, ma'am, but I'm Catholic. Just I checked, I was Christian. You know, I believed in Christ just like everybody else. I kind of believed that was Christian. [00:51:39] Speaker 3: I was a born-again Christian. There's a difference between being a Catholic and a born-again Christian. [00:51:43] Speaker 2: You're a born-again Christian. [00:51:44] Speaker 3: I was. Yes, I was. Yes, I was. [00:51:47] Speaker 2: And he was Catholic, and he went downstairs and read his Bible, correct? [00:51:51] Speaker 3: Not often. [00:51:53] Speaker 2: Not often. No. Did he go downstairs and read his Bible? Yes or no? [00:51:57] Speaker 3: No, I never seen him reading his Bible downstairs. [00:52:01] Speaker 2: So when Cicely said that he would go downstairs and read his Bible, was that a lie too? [00:52:06] Speaker 3: I don't think she ever seen him read his Bible downstairs. [00:52:09] Speaker 2: So when Cicely said that on a daily basis because she wanted to see her Bible. [00:52:13] Speaker 3: He would say he was going downstairs to read his Bible, yes, to the girls. [00:52:17] Speaker 2: She went down every day and walked to the end of the steps to say hello to her father, who was sitting at that spot where it says area victim used to sit. [00:52:26] Speaker 3: Why would she go down there and say hello to him if he picked her up every day like you said? [00:52:31] Speaker 2: Well, maybe because what he remembers, she remembers, is actually right, and what you're saying isn't. [00:52:37] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:52:41] Speaker 2: So she would go down and say hello and saw him with the Bible, but you're saying that he never read that. Is that correct? [00:52:48] Speaker 3: They might have seen him with the Bible. [00:52:50] Speaker 2: But let's get back to the fact. He had wanted to change his life, correct? That's why he's in Charlotte. He knows no one in Charlotte, correct? [00:53:02] Speaker 3: He knows no one in Charlotte. [00:53:05] Speaker 2: He wants to become a regular guy. He's learned his lessons from prison and doesn't want to do it anymore, correct? No. He wants to be a part of his daughter's life, correct? [00:53:18] Speaker 3: No. [00:53:20] Speaker 2: He doesn't want to be a part of his daughter's life. All the things that Cicely tells you, says that she remembers doing with her dad, that wasn't being a part of his daughter's life. [00:53:30] Speaker 3: Yes, of course. Yes. [00:53:35] Speaker 2: But that's not what you wanted to do. He was strict. He wasn't drinking. He didn't want you to drink, correct? [00:53:43] Speaker 3: No, he drank. He drank Dewar's White Label as well. [00:53:47] Speaker 2: So Cicely claims that she doesn't remember her dad drinking, and Chris claims that he didn't drink. [00:53:53] Speaker 3: I heard Chris saying something about him bringing the bottle downstairs. Yes, I heard Chris say that. [00:53:57] Speaker 2: Well, we'll leave that up to the jury, but I don't believe that's what Chris said. [00:54:00] Speaker 3: We should. We should definitely leave it up to the jury. [00:54:03] Speaker 2: Well, we will. [00:54:04] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:54:06] Speaker 2: Once again, no question. [00:54:09] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:54:13] Speaker 2: You wanted the fun life that you had before Robert actually came back from prison, didn't you? [00:54:23] Speaker 3: I had a fun life with Robert. [00:54:24] Speaker 2: You didn't want to be part of this homemaker family life in Charlotte, Michigan, did you? [00:54:29] Speaker 3: Oh, I enjoyed my family. I enjoyed that family. [00:54:32] Speaker 2: And that's why within six weeks of it happening, you're selling the house. [00:54:37] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:54:37] Speaker 2: And you're moving to Jamaica because you enjoyed your family life so much, time up in Charlotte. [00:54:42] Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't want to, I don't know, I couldn't stay in that house for one. I couldn't get away from them. I wanted, there was a lot of things going on. [00:54:54] Speaker 2: I couldn't stay in that house any longer because you knew that Robert was dead. [00:54:59] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:55:00] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Because you helped kill Robert. [00:55:02] Speaker 3: No. No. [00:55:04] Speaker 2: No. No. Just out of the blue, your daughter, Deneen, Deneen, Deneen never did anything unless you said it was okay. [00:55:19] Speaker 3: That's so far from true. [00:55:21] Speaker 2: So once again, Cicely took the stand and lied. Your daughter, your baby. [00:55:27] Speaker 3: My baby. She was my baby. [00:55:29] Speaker 2: Your baby. Your baby just lied for no apparent reason. [00:55:32] Speaker 3: Deneen and I had a different relationship than me and Cicely. Obviously, she was my only child for 11 years. [00:55:38] Speaker 2: That's right. You and Deneen had a relationship where you were almost wingman to each other, weren't you? You didn't act like mom and daughter. No. You acted more like cohorts in your crimes. Isn't that true? [00:55:50] Speaker 3: No. [00:55:52] Speaker 2: That's what Cicely said. I don't know. Your relationship was not the normal daughter relationship. That's what she testified from the stand. [00:56:03] Speaker 3: Not the same as hers and Tasha's, but not me and Deneen get to do many things that the other girls didn't get the privilege. [00:56:13] Speaker 2: You did many things together. [00:56:15] Speaker 3: Yes. Committed crimes together. No, we did nice things together. [00:56:19] Speaker 2: You committed crimes together, too, didn't you? [00:56:21] Speaker 3: No. [00:56:24] Speaker 2: You committed crimes in Texas together, didn't you? [00:56:27] Speaker 3: No. [00:56:28] Speaker 2: You committed crimes in Michigan together, didn't you? [00:56:32] Speaker 3: No. [00:56:37] Speaker 2: Deneen wasn't going to do anything unless mom said it was okay. [00:56:42] Speaker 3: That's not true. [00:56:43] Speaker 2: So Deneen's just going to go downstairs for no reason and just kill Robert. [00:56:49] Speaker 3: I don't know what went wrong down there. I don't know what happened down there. [00:56:53] Speaker 2: You know what happened went down there. No. Dr. Cole shows you what happened down there. Deneen's just going to go downstairs for no reason. It went to Robert's head. Oh. You put your hands up in prayer. [00:57:11] Speaker 3: My hands are together. [00:57:12] Speaker 2: Did you pray when Robert was dead? I pray every day for Robert. I pray every day for Robert. [00:57:18] Speaker 3: I pray for my son, too. Ms. McCallum, stop. My son is deceased, and I pray for both of them. [00:57:23] Speaker 1: Ms. McCallum, when I ask you to stop, I need you to stop, okay? Yes, ma'am. Okay. And so we're just going to take a pause, and everybody's going to take a breath. Then Mr. Lloyd's going to ask you a question, and when he asks you a question, I need you to just answer the question. Again, when he is done, Mr. Havis gets to ask questions, and if you feel there's something you need to say, Mr. Havis will cover that. Answer the question that Mr. Lloyd asks you, and only answer it, okay? [00:57:56] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:57:57] Speaker 1: Very good. Go ahead, Mr. Lloyd. [00:58:11] Speaker 2: So Deneen just kills Robert. Is that your testimony today? [00:58:17] Speaker 3: I don't know who killed Robert. [00:58:19] Speaker 2: You don't know who killed Robert. [00:58:21] Speaker 3: No. [00:58:21] Speaker 2: So in reality, you don't even know if it was Deneen or Chris that killed Robert. [00:58:25] Speaker 3: No, I don't. [00:58:27] Speaker 2: Robert could have just had a heart attack. [00:58:30] Speaker 3: No, obviously he didn't have a heart attack. [00:58:32] Speaker 2: Well, obviously, because we watched five days of jury trial. [00:58:36] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:58:36] Speaker 2: But in 2002, you didn't know that, correct? [00:58:40] Speaker 3: No, I didn't know that. [00:58:41] Speaker 2: And you didn't care. [00:58:43] Speaker 3: Of course I cared. I still cared. I still would like to know who did it. [00:58:47] Speaker 2: Let's talk about how you cared. You cared enough to get in a van and drive it. Is that correct? [00:58:56] Speaker 3: Yeah, I drove it. My children were in the van. I can't hear you. I drove it. My children were in the van. [00:59:05] Speaker 2: Here's the mom of the family, the matriarch. [00:59:08] Speaker 3: That's what you were saying. [00:59:09] Speaker 2: Why didn't you just say, I'm getting my kids out of the van. I'm not driving. [00:59:14] Speaker 3: Chris was, I don't know. At that moment in time, my mind was in a million places. I just didn't want to leave Chris in the car, along with my daughters. [00:59:27] Speaker 2: Chris hadn't done anything to you at this point, had he? [00:59:31] Speaker 3: They were, I mean, Deneen was not in her right mind. [00:59:37] Speaker 2: Okay, but Chris had been hanging out at your house since February and March of 2002, correct? Chris had been hanging out at your house between February and March 2002, correct? [00:59:49] Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes. [00:59:51] Speaker 2: So when Chris said that he began hanging out at your house in February and March 2002, that wasn't a lie, right? [00:59:58] Speaker 3: No, that wasn't a lie. [01:00:00] Speaker 2: And Chris hung out there with Deneen and even hung out there when Deneen wasn't there, correct? [01:00:05] Speaker 3: He would stay there, yeah. [01:00:08] Speaker 2: And it was okay for him to do it then, correct? [01:00:11] Speaker 3: To do what? [01:00:12] Speaker 2: Well, it was okay for him to hang around your house. [01:00:17] Speaker 3: I mean, uh... [01:00:18] Speaker 2: Yes or no? Was it okay for him to hang around the house? Yeah, Robert said it was okay. [01:00:20] Speaker 3: Robert said it was okay. [01:00:21] Speaker 2: Yeah. As a matter of fact, you guys drank together, you played guards together, you smoked together. [01:00:27] Speaker 3: No, we never smoked together. No, we never smoked together. You never smoked together? No. You took drugs together, though, right? No, we never took drugs together. So when Cicely says that she's seen you take drugs, you do those things, I don't know what drugs she's seen me take, and certainly not with her sister or Chris. [01:00:45] Speaker 2: Well, I believe that Chris said that y'all were doing marijuana, crack, cocaine, pretty much anything the pharmacy might have. It was going on in your all's system. Is that fair to say? Sorry? Was that fair to say? Whatever the pharmacy has? Anything that you could get a hold of as far as drugs, that's what all of y'all were taking. [01:01:03] Speaker 3: No. I don't know what he said, but that is not what happened. No. [01:01:10] Speaker 2: But Chris is hanging out at the house, hanging out with you, hanging out with you. He's not hanging out with me. [01:01:16] Speaker 3: He's not hanging out with me. [01:01:18] Speaker 2: He's at the house when you're there, correct? [01:01:20] Speaker 3: Yeah, I was never alone with Chris, and Robert would never leave me alone with Chris. [01:01:24] Speaker 2: Well, Chris lived with you after Robert was gone, right? [01:01:29] Speaker 3: Robert wasn't there. [01:01:30] Speaker 2: Robert wasn't there, and you were okay with that, with hanging out with Chris then, correct? [01:01:34] Speaker 3: I wasn't hanging out with Chris then. [01:01:36] Speaker 2: He was living in your house, correct? [01:01:38] Speaker 3: Yeah, he was there. [01:01:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, living in your house, living there enough that you paid for his trip down to Jamaica, correct? [01:01:46] Speaker 3: No, I didn't pay for his trip. [01:01:50] Speaker 2: So when Chris said you paid for his trip, that was another last one. [01:01:53] Speaker 3: The trips are $199 in Jamaica at that time. [01:01:58] Speaker 2: So you paid for his trip? [01:01:59] Speaker 3: No, I don't recall paying his trip. [01:02:01] Speaker 2: Now you don't recall? [01:02:02] Speaker 3: No. [01:02:04] Speaker 2: So what happened between February and March, where Chris starts hanging out, to May, to May 7th, 2002, when your husband is no longer alive, where you go, oh, Chris is a bad man? [01:02:24] Speaker 3: I don't know what the question is. [01:02:27] Speaker 2: Well, you're saying that I had to get in this van with my daughters. I had to drive Dineen and Chris. I had to do all these things because I was afraid. What were you afraid of? You hadn't had any problems with Chris before this night. [01:02:45] Speaker 3: Listen, I don't know what is going on with them, and you can twist it and turn it any way you want. Maybe it was a bad choice. I went in the van and I drove. I'm sorry. [01:02:55] Speaker 2: I'm not here to the last thing. [01:02:56] Speaker 1: It was a bad choice, but I went in the van. [01:02:59] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. [01:03:00] Speaker 2: Now you're claiming you drove the van, is that right? Yes, I did. But yet you didn't actually have a license, correct? [01:03:08] Speaker 3: I did have a license. You can check that. [01:03:09] Speaker 2: You were actually stopped in November of 2001 and given a ticket here in the city of Charlotte for having no license. Are you telling me that you went and got a license after that? [01:03:18] Speaker 3: No. I had a Connecticut license before I came here. [01:03:23] Speaker 2: You had no license when you were given a ticket for having no license. [01:03:27] Speaker 3: I may not have had it on my possession. [01:03:29] Speaker 2: You deny that as well? [01:03:30] Speaker 3: Maybe I didn't have it on my possession. I don't know. [01:03:32] Speaker 2: Or maybe you didn't have a license. [01:03:34] Speaker 3: No, I had a license. I'm sure. [01:03:36] Speaker 2: So the officers must have just lied when they gave you a ticket for operating without a driver's license. [01:03:44] Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure I didn't have it on me, but I'm pretty sure you can check it. [01:03:49] Speaker 2: Well, if I put somebody up on the stand to say that you've never had a license in the state of Michigan, would that be a lie? [01:04:00] Speaker 3: No, I never had a license in the state of Michigan, sir. [01:04:04] Speaker 2: Right. Your last license was from Connecticut. [01:04:07] Speaker 3: Yeah, I lived in Connecticut for one year. How long did they last? [01:04:10] Speaker 2: A couple. [01:04:11] Speaker 3: Exactly. [01:04:12] Speaker 2: But you got here in 2001, right? [01:04:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, and I got there in 1999. [01:04:17] Speaker 2: So that's at least three. We'll check. [01:04:20] Speaker 3: We'll check. [01:04:21] Speaker 2: So we get to the point. I'm still confused. You've not heard anybody do anything wrong in the basement. The first time that you're seeing anyone upset is when Deneen comes upstairs asking you for something and then a bag. [01:04:45] Speaker 3: She threw the bag at me. [01:04:47] Speaker 2: She threw a bag at you. [01:04:48] Speaker ?: Yeah. [01:04:50] Speaker 2: And you're not asking any questions. [01:04:54] Speaker 3: I asked a lot of questions, but, uh... [01:04:58] Speaker 2: Well, then what were they? Give me some questions that you asked. [01:05:00] Speaker 3: I asked her, like, what is going on? What have you done? What happened? She just was just, Mommy, help me. That's it. That's it. [01:05:09] Speaker 2: Mommy, help me. Yeah. Amazing. An individual that you just said would not need your support to do something. Now it's coming to you going, Mommy, help me. [01:05:22] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:05:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, what does she need Mommy's help for? [01:05:26] Speaker 3: I don't know. I couldn't help her. [01:05:28] Speaker 2: You don't know? No. You didn't have any idea? [01:05:31] Speaker 3: No. [01:05:33] Speaker 2: So... The jury is supposed to believe that the father of your child is killed in your home and is then stuffed in a trunk, this trunk here, by the way, just so we understand, that's Robert's last resting place, right here, and carried out to a van, and in all of this occurring, you hear nothing. [01:06:11] Speaker 3: No, I didn't hear anything. [01:06:13] Speaker 2: Nothing at all? [01:06:15] Speaker 3: Nothing at all. [01:06:17] Speaker 2: And then you're just randomly told to just get in a van and start driving. And you do that because you're scared of Chris. [01:06:30] Speaker 3: I did that because I don't want them to be with my children in a car. I don't know what they want. I don't know what they've done. [01:06:41] Speaker 2: But why are they putting them in the car? Yeah. What is the necessity to put them in the car if you are here? She only asked me for a ride. Absolutely nothing. [01:06:49] Speaker 3: She asked me for a ride. That is all she asked me for, is for a ride, that they needed a ride. [01:06:54] Speaker 2: Why did she need a ride when she had her license? [01:06:57] Speaker 3: She didn't have her license. She had two DWIs. [01:07:00] Speaker 2: So when Chris said Dineen drove because she's the only one who actually had a license, that's another lie. [01:07:06] Speaker 3: He was lying. He's been lying the whole time. He's a liar. [01:07:09] Speaker 2: The guy who confessed to murdering someone is lying. [01:07:14] Speaker 3: No, he never confessed to that. It's the worst I know. [01:07:19] Speaker 2: You were sitting right there. He took the stand. Yeah, he pointed the finger at anybody but himself. I'm sorry. Go ahead. [01:07:27] Speaker 1: Ms. McCallum, again. [01:07:28] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:07:30] Speaker 1: Let Mr. Lloyd, are you going to ask a question? [01:07:33] Speaker 2: I was trying to finish it. [01:07:34] Speaker 1: I know. Go ahead. [01:07:36] Speaker 2: You were present when Mr. McMillan testified on Monday, correct? [01:07:40] Speaker 6: Yep. [01:07:41] Speaker 2: You were present when he said he was in the basement with you and Dineen and the three of you killed Robert. [01:07:52] Speaker 3: That's what he said. That is what he said. [01:07:55] Speaker 2: He confessed to murder. [01:07:58] Speaker 3: He confessed, yeah. [01:08:00] Speaker 2: Yeah. So when all of a sudden you say he hasn't confessed to it, he actually did confess to his part in this. [01:08:09] Speaker 3: I'm wondering. [01:08:11] Speaker 2: Well, then help us out. I have no clue. Help us out. Help us understand. [01:08:16] Speaker 3: I wish I could. [01:08:18] Speaker 2: I wish I could. You wish you could. [01:08:19] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:08:23] Speaker 2: See, this obviously wasn't a memorable event to you. Is that what you're saying? The death of the father of your child was not a memorable event. I wasn't there. I was not there. Yes or no? [01:08:35] Speaker 3: I was not there, no. [01:08:39] Speaker 2: How long did it take for you to figure out that Robert was dead? [01:08:49] Speaker 3: I don't know, sir. [01:08:51] Speaker 2: I can't hear. [01:08:52] Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know. [01:08:54] Speaker 2: You don't know. [01:08:56] Speaker 3: No. [01:08:57] Speaker ?: I don't. [01:08:58] Speaker 2: So you don't know Robert's dead when you decide to go drive the van. [01:09:09] Speaker 3: At that particular moment? [01:09:12] Speaker 2: Yes or no? [01:09:13] Speaker 3: No. [01:09:13] Speaker ?: No. No. [01:09:15] Speaker 2: That van of Robert's. [01:09:18] Speaker 3: Yep. [01:09:21] Speaker 2: I'm just curious. Whatever happened to that van? [01:09:24] Speaker 3: It was sold in the auction. The public auction. [01:09:28] Speaker 2: Sold in an auction. [01:09:29] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:09:30] Speaker 2: How long after Robert died did you do that? [01:09:36] Speaker 3: Several weeks. I don't know. [01:09:39] Speaker 2: Well, you told the jury earlier today that you were only in town for six weeks before you headed off to Jamaica. I don't know. With your long love affair. So how long? [01:09:48] Speaker 3: Three or four weeks. [01:09:52] Speaker 2: How about those tires? Did you go get new tires a couple of days after? No. So once again, Chris is lying. I guess so. So I'll ask again. When did you realize? Was it when you sat down for jury trial today, this week, was that when you figured out that Robert was dead? [01:10:15] Speaker 3: No. [01:10:17] Speaker 2: When did you know that Robert died? I don't know the time. You didn't know because you didn't care because the truth was you were actually in that basement and saw Robert die. [01:10:29] Speaker 3: No, I was not in the basement. I did not kill Robert and I did not help to kill Robert. [01:10:37] Speaker 2: You said you were so upset about having to go and drive, but you felt you had no choice because of your children. [01:10:45] Speaker 3: I was not even thinking about anything except getting near my children. [01:10:53] Speaker 2: Yes or no question. [01:10:54] Speaker 3: That's why you brought me in. Just getting near my children. Yes. Getting near my children. Yes. Yes. Getting near my children. [01:11:07] Speaker 2: And you drove on a highway, but you have no idea where you went. [01:11:12] Speaker 3: No. No, I never left the Charlotte area very often. [01:11:16] Speaker 2: But yet it was Chris McMillan, the guy who had just moved up from Texas in November of 2001. He's the one directing you to the blueberry patch in Ottawa County. [01:11:32] Speaker 3: When did Chris, excuse me, when did Chris McMillan? [01:11:35] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, what? [01:11:36] Speaker 3: What was that you said? Speak up. What was that you said, sir? [01:11:41] Speaker 2: Chris testified that he moved up to Charlotte in November of 2001. [01:11:46] Speaker 3: Okay. [01:11:47] Speaker 2: It's May 7th when Robert dies. [01:11:50] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:11:51] Speaker 2: He's burned alive in a blueberry field on between May 7th and May 8th. And you're telling me that during those six months, that five months that Chris was up here, that he had learned the state of Michigan well enough that he directed you how to get to this blueberry field? [01:12:08] Speaker 3: I don't know what Chris has done or where he's been. [01:12:12] Speaker 2: In reality, after you killed Robert, you actually called your cousin or your friend or your family member, or Big Tony, and asked Big Tony how to get rid of him, and he's the one who directed you to take this body, to take the body there, isn't he? [01:12:28] Speaker 3: My nephew? I never talked to my nephew or anybody. [01:12:32] Speaker 2: So you didn't talk to Big Tony afterwards and basically tell him that he just killed Robert? What do I got to do? [01:12:39] Speaker 3: No. Why would I? No. [01:12:47] Speaker 2: So you, once again, you come back, you come back and you still don't know Robert's dead when you get back from driving to this blueberry field? [01:13:01] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, what? Yes, I believe he's deceased. [01:13:05] Speaker 2: Why do you believe he's deceased? [01:13:07] Speaker 3: I mean, that's what it appeared very clearly that is what was going on. [01:13:13] Speaker 2: Can you speak up? [01:13:14] Speaker 3: That appeared very clearly that is what had happened. [01:13:18] Speaker 2: How did it appear very clearly? Was that because you were actually there? Because of the explosion. You actually put the gasoline on him? No. You were helped glide him? [01:13:27] Speaker 3: Never. No. [01:13:30] Speaker 2: So then how was it clear? [01:13:32] Speaker 3: After that explosion. [01:13:40] Speaker 2: After the explosion. But the explosion you never really saw is what you claimed. [01:13:45] Speaker 5: I did see it. Everybody can see it. You can feel it. It shook the whole earth. [01:13:51] Speaker 2: It shook because you were standing there after you had poured the gasoline on him, correct? [01:13:57] Speaker 3: No. [01:14:00] Speaker 2: But yet, if it was the way you portray it, and you didn't know, and you only believed, you're not going to say a word? Deneen, well, Deneen, in reality, Deneen quit living with you after May 7th, didn't she? [01:14:20] Speaker 3: No. [01:14:21] Speaker 2: She actually went to live with her girlfriend up in St. John's, didn't she? No. She didn't want to be with you, did she? Because she didn't go to Jamaica with you. She and her girlfriend went to Texas, not to Jamaica with you. [01:14:33] Speaker 3: She started driving the drug car that Robert had planned? Yes or no. [01:14:37] Speaker 2: It's a yes or no question. I don't need to know the stories. [01:14:40] Speaker 3: Okay. [01:14:41] Speaker 2: Yes or no? Did she live with you afterwards? Yes. She went up and moved to St. John and lived with her girlfriend up there, didn't she? No. And she didn't go with you to Jamaica, did she? [01:14:52] Speaker 3: No, she didn't go to Jamaica with me. [01:14:54] Speaker 2: She went to Texas instead. [01:14:56] Speaker 3: She was driving cars. I don't know where she was. [01:14:59] Speaker 2: She was in different states. Okay, so is cars a state? Because I just asked you if she went to Texas. [01:15:04] Speaker 3: She was driving in different states. [01:15:06] Speaker 2: But she moved to Texas with her girlfriend, correct? [01:15:09] Speaker 3: Yeah, her and Jamie ended up in Texas, yes. [01:15:12] Speaker 2: But not Jamaica. Yeah, they came to Jamaica. They both came to Jamaica. She didn't want anything to do with you after this, correct? [01:15:18] Speaker 3: They both came to Jamaica, sir. [01:15:21] Speaker 2: Oh, that's right. She came to Jamaica to be your best woman when you married your long-term love affair in Jamaica, correct? [01:15:31] Speaker 3: She spent a month there, sir. She came there for me. [01:15:34] Speaker 2: Am I wrong when I say that she came there and was your best woman in your marriage? [01:15:39] Speaker 3: I had a wedding and, yes, my children were involved in my wedding. [01:15:43] Speaker 2: Yes, yes. [01:15:44] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:15:44] Speaker 2: Yes, they were. So you get back and I believe you testified that you didn't know what to do, but yet you immediately reached out to two women to tell them what happened. Is that correct? [01:16:03] Speaker 3: I asked them. [01:16:05] Speaker 2: What did you tell them? [01:16:07] Speaker 3: I told them that Dineen has come to me and I told them what she said and what had happened. Yeah, I told them. [01:16:19] Speaker 2: So you told them that a murder had occurred in your house? [01:16:23] Speaker 3: Yeah. I, uh, yes. Yes. [01:16:29] Speaker 2: But yet you didn't feel it was important enough to call 911 and tell them that the father of your child is dead? [01:16:38] Speaker 3: No, I did not call 911. [01:16:40] Speaker 2: You didn't feel it was important enough. [01:16:43] Speaker 3: I didn't say that, sir. [01:16:45] Speaker 2: But you didn't do it. [01:16:47] Speaker 3: No, sir, I did not. [01:16:48] Speaker 2: You did not. You did not because in reality you were actually a part of that. [01:16:51] Speaker 3: No, I was not a part of it. [01:16:54] Speaker 2: Let me clarify. I'm curious. Yeah. Why don't you ever stand when the judge or jury come in or go out? [01:17:04] Speaker 3: I don't know. Why am I supposed to? Nobody told me to. [01:17:09] Speaker 2: Well, when you hear the young lady state all rise for the judge or jury, you understand what that means, correct? [01:17:17] Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't. I'm sorry. I didn't know. [01:17:19] Speaker 2: And 20 years ago, you could have, you wouldn't have come up to the witness stand the way you did today, correct? You're in a lot better health 20 years ago. [01:17:32] Speaker 3: If you say so. [01:17:36] Speaker 2: Well, were you going around in a wheelchair 22 years ago? [01:17:39] Speaker 3: No, but I had medical issues. [01:17:43] Speaker 2: Not bad enough that you couldn't leave and pack up in six weeks and leave Charlotte and get to Jamaica. You didn't obviously have that bad amount of questions. [01:17:52] Speaker 3: So I didn't pack up anything. [01:17:54] Speaker 2: Once again. [01:17:56] Speaker 3: I didn't pack up anything, sir. [01:17:59] Speaker 2: You didn't pack up anything? [01:18:01] Speaker 3: No. [01:18:01] Speaker 2: So you just picked up your two children and it was six weeks time. You've sold the cars. You've sold the house. [01:18:14] Speaker 3: I sold everything in one, in one though. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. [01:18:20] Speaker 1: Okay. I don't know what is difficult about this. When Mr. Lloyd is asking a question, you listen. When he's done, if it's yes or no, you say yes or no. If he asks you an open-ended question, then you can answer it, okay? But you can't talk when he's talking because these continued interruptions are not helpful. Yes, ma'am. Mr. Lloyd. [01:18:49] Speaker 2: Thank you, Your Honor. I'm still confused and you'll have to forgive me so I'll continue to ask questions. You go and you drive all this way to an area you don't know. [01:19:28] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:19:30] Speaker 2: You don't actually, you know nothing about a two-track you said. Rather, you didn't even pull in. You just stopped on the dirt road. Is that fair to say? [01:19:43] Speaker 3: I don't know. That was a dirt road we were on. [01:19:47] Speaker 2: So it could have been a paved road is what you're saying. [01:19:50] Speaker 3: I think it was. [01:19:52] Speaker 2: So when we show the area of the dirt road that goes to the two-track, are you saying that the police officers were lying at that time in the pictures that they took? [01:20:02] Speaker 3: Whereas this road is, I thought, on the man's property. [01:20:07] Speaker 2: Yes or no? All right, we'll go on. [01:20:10] Speaker 3: I'm confused with it. [01:20:11] Speaker 2: So when you stop, you say you're facing straight. You're not in the two-track, correct? [01:20:18] Speaker 3: No, I was facing straight. Yes, I was facing straight. [01:20:22] Speaker 2: And you don't see anything of what Deneen and Bev do. Deneen and Chris do. [01:20:32] Speaker 3: No, it was impossible. It was pitch black. So there was no street lights. [01:20:36] Speaker 2: So they just do something, but they leave, right? [01:20:41] Speaker 3: Leave what? [01:20:42] Speaker 2: Well, they leave your car. They leave the van. [01:20:44] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:20:45] Speaker 2: They're no longer in the van. [01:20:46] Speaker 3: No. [01:20:47] Speaker 2: They go somewhere. [01:20:48] Speaker 3: Yes, they went to the far right. [01:20:54] Speaker 2: And when they leave, you got your children in your car, correct? [01:20:58] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:20:59] Speaker 2: And this whole time you're driving because you're somehow scared of your daughter. [01:21:05] Speaker 3: Yes. No, I... [01:21:06] Speaker 2: The man who lived with you for three months is now... You're now scared of him. You're now scared of Chris. So two people that you're scared of because they're acting crazy have now left the van in a pitch black area. [01:21:29] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:21:29] Speaker 2: And you just sit there. [01:21:35] Speaker 3: Yes, I sit there. [01:21:36] Speaker 2: You didn't leave. [01:21:38] Speaker 3: No, I didn't leave. [01:21:39] Speaker 2: You didn't leave because you knew they had Robert in this trunk. And you knew because you had told them to that they were going to light Robert on fire. [01:21:49] Speaker 3: No, never. [01:21:50] Speaker 2: Then why didn't you leave? You were so scared. Why didn't you leave? [01:21:53] Speaker 3: I didn't even think about leaving, sir. Didn't even intervene. [01:21:56] Speaker 2: You didn't think about it. No. You didn't care about the children in the car enough to think about it, even though you said you were scared. [01:22:02] Speaker 3: Of course, I care about my children. I still care about my children. They're my children. [01:22:11] Speaker 2: This trunk here. This trunk was in your home before. Did you have a black trunk that you used to keep at the end of your bed in 334 Horatio? No. So when Cicely and Chris talk about this trunk being in your house, that's another lie. [01:22:36] Speaker 3: This trunk, I don't know where this trunk came from. [01:22:39] Speaker 2: You're the woman in the house. This is your house. That trunk didn't come from my house. Robert is found in a trunk. That trunk. How does that trunk get in your house? [01:22:47] Speaker 3: I don't know. That is not, that trunk, I don't know where that came from. [01:22:54] Speaker 2: You don't know? [01:22:55] Speaker 3: No, sir. [01:22:56] Speaker 2: Just popped into the blue and all of a sudden, the father of your child, you sound burned up in it. [01:23:04] Speaker 3: I don't know where that trunk came from, sir. [01:23:07] Speaker 2: Well, once again, everybody must be lying except you. [01:23:10] Speaker 3: I mean, uh. [01:23:13] Speaker 2: They said it was there. You're saying it's not. So they're the liars, correct? [01:23:17] Speaker 3: I don't know where the trunk came from, sir. It didn't come from me. [01:23:20] Speaker 2: Well, I know where it ended up. It ended up in a blueberry pill. Yeah, we all know where it ended up. With Robert burning in it. [01:23:25] Speaker 3: Yes, we know that. Yes, that is correct. [01:23:27] Speaker 2: And we know from you that you were there. You drove him. That's what you claimed. [01:23:34] Speaker 3: Yes. I can't tell you. [01:23:36] Speaker 2: But we still haven't figured out. You had a thought, but you didn't know. Why would you think Robert's dead if you've heard nothing in the basement? You've seen nothing in the basement. No one has told you Robert's dead. [01:23:51] Speaker 3: Yes, and he told me that. [01:23:53] Speaker 5: When did you? [01:23:54] Speaker 3: When did Denae tell you this? When she called me when she came upstairs. That is what she said. That they killed Robert. [01:24:05] Speaker 2: And your response to that is, do nothing. [01:24:12] Speaker 3: I don't know what to, in that moment. [01:24:18] Speaker 2: Or is it do nothing because you know he's dead because you were part of the people that helped killed him. That's why you didn't do nothing, correct? [01:24:28] Speaker 3: I did not kill Robert. I did not kill Robert. No. That's not correct. No. No. [01:24:37] Speaker 2: You knew about the explosion and you knew how it felt because you were standing there watching it occur. [01:24:43] Speaker 3: Absolutely not. No. No. [01:24:45] Speaker 2: You were part of burning Robert's body. [01:24:48] Speaker 5: No. Thank you. [01:25:19] Speaker 2: Just a moment, Your Honor. Thank you. So, Cicely's nine. One day, her dad's in her house, his inner life. The next day, he's nine. That was a memorable event for Cicely. Would you agree? [01:26:08] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:26:09] Speaker 2: Yeah. She testified to that, correct? [01:26:12] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:26:13] Speaker 2: Memorable enough that she remembers little things, like the padlock on the door. [01:26:21] Speaker 3: I don't know anything about the padlock. [01:26:23] Speaker 2: You don't know anything. You're the mom of the house, but you seem to know nothing about actually what occurs in the house that you own. [01:26:31] Speaker 3: I've never seen a padlock on that door. [01:26:34] Speaker 2: So, when Chris says that there's a padlock after the three of you kill Robert, that's a lie. Cicely says that after the time that you kill that somebody, that Robert's no longer there, there's a padlock on the basement door. That's a lie. [01:26:51] Speaker 3: If it was there, I didn't see it. Okay? [01:26:54] Speaker 2: You just didn't notice. [01:26:56] Speaker 5: No. I didn't see it. Not notice. I didn't see it. [01:26:59] Speaker 2: Well, Cicely noticed that Robert wasn't there. [01:27:03] Speaker 5: Yeah. What did you tell Cicely? I didn't say anything to Cicely. [01:27:08] Speaker 2: So, when Cicely said, Mom, Mother, where's my dad? What did you say? [01:27:18] Speaker 3: I said he wasn't here. [01:27:20] Speaker 2: He wasn't here. What? He went out to get some smokes? Where'd he go? [01:27:25] Speaker 3: I didn't give an explanation at that time, sir. [01:27:28] Speaker 2: So, when Cicely remembers that you said that he abandoned her and left to go back to his old ways in Canada, that's another lie by Cicely. [01:27:38] Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure she ever heard Deneen say that. [01:27:42] Speaker 2: Oh, so once again, it's all Deneen's fault. Everything here is Deneen's fault. Your other daughter, correct? Okay. Your other daughter who does everything for you, correct? [01:27:54] Speaker 3: Deneen does everything for herself. [01:27:57] Speaker 2: And you, correct? For herself. And you. She's not going to be doing things for herself without your approval, correct? [01:28:05] Speaker 3: That's, that's not true. That is far from true. [01:28:11] Speaker 2: So in 2007, you said you moved up to, from Jamaica, you left Jamaica and you came up to Texas. [01:28:21] Speaker 3: That was January 6th, January 6th, 2006. [01:28:26] Speaker 2: January, okay, so 2006. Yes. And so when you moved up there, Cicely talks about that she had to take a flight into Houston and was met by Deneen and her girlfriend, her partner, and that you came in a different way. Is that a lie as well? [01:28:51] Speaker 3: No, we went to five different countries, me and Tasha and the baby. [01:28:56] Speaker 2: Went through five different countries when Jamaica to Houston, I'm sure has a straight flight. Why did we go to five different countries? [01:29:08] Speaker 3: I have a thing about travel, sir. [01:29:10] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm not hearing you. [01:29:12] Speaker 3: I have a thing about travel. [01:29:14] Speaker 2: You have a thing about travel? [01:29:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, if I can, if I can get a ticket and go to three countries for the same price, I can just go straight, I'll take the ticket for the experience. [01:29:29] Speaker 2: So you take one daughter, Cicely, and you make her go straight, but you're going to take the other daughter and a baby, and you're going to go to multiple countries before you get back up to Houston, is that right? [01:29:43] Speaker 3: Cicely took the bulk of the, uh, the bulk of the... [01:29:45] Speaker 2: Yes or no? Is that correct? Yes. And is it correct that in reality, you crossed the border, not, not by a flight, but by coming across the border is how you came into the United States? [01:29:58] Speaker 3: My kids came to Mexico, we had a week vacation there, and then we all came back together, yes. [01:30:05] Speaker 2: You dropped Cicely off two days beforehand, and then Deneen goes and picks you up two days later, but you're having a big vacation during those two days. [01:30:14] Speaker 3: Two days beforehand and two days later. [01:30:16] Speaker 2: Cicely said she was dropped off, spent the weekend with Deneen's partner while Deneen went to the border to pick you up. [01:30:26] Speaker 3: No. [01:30:27] Speaker 2: No, so that's another lie by Cicely. Because Cicely would have what reason to make all of these lies against her mother? Maybe it's mixed up. What reason would she have to make all of these lies against her mother? [01:30:40] Speaker 3: She's not making lies against her mother, sir. [01:30:43] Speaker 2: Exactly. She is not making lies against her mother. [01:30:46] Speaker 3: No, I think you're mixing it up intentionally. You are mixing it up intentionally. [01:30:51] Speaker 2: So at what point do you start telling Cicely that her father has abandoned her? [01:30:58] Speaker 3: I have never told Cicely that. And I gave Cicely, she was ripping up every picture of her father, and I told her, please don't do that. Those are her father's pictures. [01:31:09] Speaker 2: So you told Cicely right from the get-go that Robert's dead? [01:31:13] Speaker 3: No. [01:31:14] Speaker 2: No. Matter of fact, you played it off to Cicely that he was still alive. [01:31:20] Speaker 3: She never mentioned her father ever again. She never mentioned it. It was never a conversation until she approached me that one time. [01:31:29] Speaker 2: Or it was never a conversation because every time she brought it up, you shut it down. No. Isn't that true? No. You didn't want Cicely to talk about Robert. No. Because then that meant you were going to have to talk about where he went in 2002. [01:31:45] Speaker 5: No. [01:31:47] Speaker 2: And in reality, there came a point in 2014 that you were confronted with the fact that Cicely had said, I've had enough. Cicely's not going to just come to you out of the blue, unless there's a reason. [01:32:07] Speaker 3: She went to her grandmother's funeral in DR. And when she came back, I don't know what they talked to her about. She asked me. She wanted to know where her father was. And I told her. I did my best knowledge. [01:32:26] Speaker 2: But yet, at the same point, now you're saying, well, Cicely, why? Because what I told her that day wasn't what occurred. She must have heard something different. It's something else because you said. I hit him, ran upstairs to Deneen. Deneen ran down with her friends. [01:32:45] Speaker 3: I never said that. I never said that. [01:32:47] Speaker 2: You never said that. So once again, Cicely must be lying. [01:32:52] Speaker 3: Okay, that doesn't even match what Chris has said. So, I don't know. [01:32:57] Speaker 2: You're right. It doesn't match what Chris has said because it benefited you. [01:33:02] Speaker 3: That's why you told her what you did. None of it benefits me, sir. [01:33:06] Speaker 2: Because nothing you're saying matches anything. [01:33:10] Speaker 3: That's what you have concluded and want everybody to believe that it's what you have done. [01:33:16] Speaker 2: Well, no, I think that's what the testimony and 140 pieces of evidence will conclude. [01:33:21] Speaker 3: No, I don't think it's possible. [01:33:27] Speaker 2: When did you begin telling Cicely that Robert abandoned her? [01:33:31] Speaker 3: I never began to tell Cicely anything. I never had any conversations with Cicely prior to the day she approached me. We sat down. We discussed it. I told her to my best what I thought or what was told to me. And she said she never wanted to talk to her sister, Janine, ever again. From that point, they never talked again. But me and Cicely continued to acknowledge the truth. [01:34:00] Speaker 2: I can't even understand her. So, I'm not sure what you said. And I'm probably guessing that it doesn't have an answer to my question. So, you're saying that even though Cicely said from day one in this memorable event when her father's gone, she's told she's been abandoned, you never said that. [01:34:21] Speaker 3: No. [01:34:22] Speaker 2: Let's go back to those two women that you called. What were the name of those two women? [01:34:28] Speaker 3: Brenda Pellegrino. [01:34:29] Speaker 2: She's dead. So, who else you got? [01:34:32] Speaker 3: Mary Magliocetti. [01:34:34] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, who? [01:34:35] Speaker 3: Mary Magliocetti. [01:34:37] Speaker 2: Who's that? My mother. She's dead too. So, the two women that you would have told, supposedly told that this happened, they're both dead. [01:34:46] Speaker 3: If somebody would have talked to me, my sister was still alive. I lost her. I lost my... [01:34:51] Speaker 2: Doesn't matter. They're dead now, correct? So, we don't have anyone to actually back up the story that you're giving that you actually told anyone. [01:35:01] Speaker 3: No. They're deceased. [01:35:03] Speaker 2: But, we do have that in 2015-16, Detective Maltby went and checked every agency around the area, as well as 911, looking for a 911 call or any type of call that a man is missing or a man is dead. And that didn't occur because you never called to report him dead, did you? [01:35:27] Speaker 3: In 2015? [01:35:29] Speaker 2: No. In 2002, you didn't bother to report him dead. [01:35:32] Speaker 3: I said 2015. No, I didn't. I did not. In 2002, I did not. [01:35:36] Speaker 2: No, what I'm telling you is in 2015, we determined that back in 2002, you never bothered to make the call. [01:35:43] Speaker 3: Okay. No, I didn't. [01:35:45] Speaker 2: And you picked up the family and left. [01:35:47] Speaker 3: Yes, I picked up my family and left. [01:35:49] Speaker 2: And none of your family was going to call to say, wow, guy's missing, don't know why. Or was he not being called was missing because you had already told everyone that he had left you and had moved to Canada to sell drugs? [01:36:05] Speaker 3: My mother and my sister knew what happened and I'm pretty sure most of her children. I can't understand you. My mother and my sister knew what happened and I'm pretty sure my sister. Then what happened? [01:36:14] Speaker 2: What did you tell them? How did you know he was dead? [01:36:18] Speaker 3: I told them that Dineen came from the basement. I didn't hear anything. I didn't hear an argument. And she told me that Robert died, that she killed him, that they killed him. I said, oh, I said, Dineen and Chris. My sister said, oh, dear God, you get the hell away. [01:36:36] Speaker 2: I can't understand. You're going to have to speak up. [01:36:38] Speaker 3: My sister said, get the hell away from Dineen. [01:36:42] Speaker 2: So neither your sister or your mother actually even said, holy cow, maybe you ought to call the police. Neither one of them said it, correct? [01:36:52] Speaker 3: No. [01:36:53] Speaker 2: No, no. Because that's not how your family works, right? That is right. You did business inside the family. Yes. You don't actually take it outside. [01:37:01] Speaker 3: No, we try not to take anything outside of the family. You are correct. [01:37:04] Speaker 2: So if somebody's got to go, the family's going to take care of it. No, my family doesn't do that. It's not going to be through 911. No, my family doesn't do that. Well, that's what happened here. That's what you're telling me. No. Robert needed to go and Dineen took care of that for you. That's what you're telling me. [01:37:19] Speaker 3: I never said that. [01:37:20] Speaker 2: Well, if you're not saying that, then why would Dineen need to kill Robert? [01:37:26] Speaker 3: I have no idea, sir. [01:37:28] Speaker 2: I can't hear you. [01:37:29] Speaker 3: I have no idea. [01:37:30] Speaker 2: You don't have any idea. I don't know what happened down there. I have no clue. You didn't care. I did care. It wasn't your problem after he was dead, right? [01:37:39] Speaker 3: That is what you want to believe, but that is not true. I still care. Well, that's what you said. [01:37:44] Speaker 2: You did absolutely nothing to honor Robert's death after he was dead. [01:37:50] Speaker 3: I see him as being alive, sir. That's the last time I've seen him. He was alive. [01:37:55] Speaker 2: But then you just told us that someone had told you that he was dead, and you've done nothing to honor his death since then, have you? [01:38:03] Speaker 3: No, I haven't done anything for my son's death either. [01:38:06] Speaker 2: In 2015, you took, had a home in Texas and now had a new husband, right? [01:38:28] Speaker 3: I was married in October 14th of 2014, sir. [01:38:36] Speaker 2: Where's he at now? [01:38:38] Speaker 3: He's Pakistani. He lives in Pakistan. [01:38:40] Speaker 2: So he lives in Pakistan. Yes. And in 2015, your mother has already died, correct? [01:38:51] Speaker 3: My mother died on April 20th, 2015. [01:38:55] Speaker 2: Did she die? Was it in 2015? I don't need every specific date. I just want to know, did she die in 2015? Yes, sir. And after her death, Deneen started to question how she has died, correct? [01:39:11] Speaker 5: No. [01:39:13] Speaker 2: Well, isn't it true that in October of 2015, you had been advised by Deneen that detectives were actually coming to speak to her? [01:39:25] Speaker 3: No. [01:39:26] Speaker 2: And because of that, you made this fire sale of a situation at your house in Texas and just up and sold it for cash? [01:39:36] Speaker 3: I sold four houses for cash. Four. [01:39:39] Speaker 2: How about the house you were living in? [01:39:41] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:39:41] Speaker 2: Yeah. Every house I ever lived in, I sold for cash. And then you packed up and you moved to Pakistan right after your daughter said, I'm going to talk to the cops. [01:39:51] Speaker 3: No, I moved to Pakistan after my husband could not get an immigration appointment. [01:39:55] Speaker 2: And that was October of 2015, correct? [01:39:58] Speaker 3: It was August 24th of 2015. I was gone long before, I think before the first week of September. [01:40:15] Speaker 2: And this was after, though, Deneen had told you she's going to the cops. [01:40:21] Speaker 3: No. Deneen never told me anything like that. Deneen thought my mother had a million dollar life insurance policy. That was the reason why Tanya got involved. [01:40:33] Speaker 2: Well, that's why this all started, isn't that correct? That's why it all started. [01:40:37] Speaker 3: Yeah, money. [01:40:37] Speaker 2: Because you and Deneen were fighting over your mother's money. [01:40:42] Speaker 3: My mother didn't have any money, sir. [01:40:44] Speaker 2: And Deneen said, enough's enough. I'm done covering up for my mother. I'm done taking the blame for my mother. I'm going to break this wide open. And here we are. [01:40:59] Speaker 3: No, I don't know anything about that, sir. [01:41:02] Speaker 2: I'm sure you don't. [01:41:03] Speaker 3: No. [01:41:14] Speaker 2: So your mother and your sister in 2002 tell you to get as far away from Deneen and Chris. That's their, that's their, that's the way they handle somebody killing somebody, is just get as far away from them. Is that right? [01:41:36] Speaker 6: Objection calls for speculation, Your Honor. [01:41:38] Speaker 2: Well, not if she was actually told that. She's already stated it, and there was no objection to the hearsay at that point that they told me to get as far away from her as possible. [01:41:49] Speaker 1: He's objecting now. Sustained. [01:41:53] Speaker 6: Well, the response that he's expecting or wanting is from two individuals about how they handle their business. [01:42:00] Speaker 3: I don't know why. [01:42:01] Speaker 1: No, but again, okay. I know, I know. [01:42:05] Speaker 2: Well, I believe I can ask the question, were you advised to get as far away from Deneen? [01:42:11] Speaker 3: I think that they were much like me, very confused. [01:42:17] Speaker 2: I cannot hear you. [01:42:18] Speaker 3: They were much like me, very confused at that time. [01:42:22] Speaker 2: And much like me, you didn't answer my question, and I'm confused. [01:42:25] Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know what was going through their head. [01:42:27] Speaker 2: Did they tell you to get away? Yes, yes. Is that what you were told? [01:42:31] Speaker 3: They told me to get away, yes. Get away from her. [01:42:35] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I did not hear you. [01:42:36] Speaker 3: Yes, they told me to get away from Deneen, yes. [01:42:43] Speaker 2: But yet, getting away from Deneen means that she becomes best woman in your wedding. [01:42:49] Speaker 3: Deneen came to Jamaica. She knows Jamaica just like the back of her hand. [01:42:55] Speaker 2: Did she become best woman in your wedding? [01:42:58] Speaker 3: Yes, she came there many times. [01:43:00] Speaker 2: A person that you're told to get away from came many times to Jamaica to visit you. Yes. And then Deneen is such an awful person that in reality, at some point, you actually sent Cicely to live with Deneen. Is that not correct? [01:43:20] Speaker 5: Deneen lived with Cicely. [01:43:22] Speaker 2: Cicely lived with Deneen. I doubt at any point Deneen lived with Cicely since Cicely was so much younger. [01:43:31] Speaker 3: I don't know when you're talking about. [01:43:34] Speaker 2: You don't know, you don't remember, you don't care. Which is it? [01:43:37] Speaker 3: I don't know right now what you're talking about. You're coming up with some other stuff. I don't know what you're coming up with. Do you have a date, a time, a circumstance? Okay, no question. Thank you. I don't know what he's talking about. [01:43:52] Speaker 2: And you said that you were told to get from Deneen, had to get away. But yet, when you all ended up in Texas, once again, you testified on direct that Deneen was back, having family dinners with you. Yes. Blood's thicker than water, is that right? She's family. We take care of business within the family. Robert's gone. Que sera. Doesn't matter anymore, correct? [01:44:24] Speaker 3: There's always a tension, sir. [01:44:27] Speaker 2: Once again, I can't hear you. [01:44:29] Speaker 3: Can you hear me? [01:44:31] Speaker 1: There's always tension. [01:44:33] Speaker 3: There's always tension. [01:44:34] Speaker 1: Okay, and that's good. [01:44:37] Speaker 2: Thank you. For the next question. Thank you for doing that, Your Honor. Always tension, but not enough that the family wasn't together, correct? Not enough that you and Deneen weren't going to be back together just as you had done before, correct? [01:44:54] Speaker 3: But, no, we were never the same. [01:44:59] Speaker 2: She was the best woman in your wedding. That's never the same? [01:45:04] Speaker 3: Sir, no. The way we were with each other was not the same, no. [01:45:13] Speaker 2: It obviously must have been something because this was the man of your child. And yet, you made the determination that his life wasn't important because you were going to be with your daughter. Because you and your daughter and Chris were the ones who actually did it, correct? [01:45:36] Speaker 3: No, that's not true. [01:45:39] Speaker 2: But it happened. Robert's dead. You knew about it, and you never said a word, correct? [01:45:47] Speaker 3: I never, I did, I told my mother and my sister, yes. [01:45:54] Speaker 2: You never told the police. No. You never told 911. No. You never told Robert's family. No. You never told Cicely until she confronted you in 2014. [01:46:09] Speaker 3: When Cicely asked me, I told her. [01:46:12] Speaker 2: Oh, Cicely had asked you, where's dad? You never told her then. She, she... Because you wanted to protect her mental health, correct? [01:46:19] Speaker 3: She, no. She never asked me in those times, sir. She never asked me. [01:46:24] Speaker 2: A nine-year-old child who's just gotten back the greatest thing in the world. An intact family never asked you once. [01:46:34] Speaker 3: She may have portrayed that that was the greatest thing in the world at that time. She was very upset with her father. She didn't tell you that because you didn't ask her that either. Now, that's a shock to you too, huh? [01:46:49] Speaker 2: No, it's not a shock. What amazes me, ma'am, is that you have a daughter like Cicely. I'll congratulate you because without your help, you actually managed to create, or without any benefit of you, Cicely is a good person. Would you agree with that? [01:47:14] Speaker 3: Um, I sent Cicely to her, her, her, her camps at Baylor. I sent Cicely to Europe, to Oxford University. Is Cicely a good person? It's a yes or no person. Yes, yes, I brought her to church every day. You would agree with me Cicely is a good person, correct? I spent a lot of time with Cicely, I spent a lot of time with Cicely. I made jealousy all the other children to spend so much time with Cicely. [01:47:44] Speaker 2: Did Robert wear jewelry? [01:47:54] Speaker 3: He had, uh, two rings and a cross. [01:47:59] Speaker 2: Two rings and a cross. What happened to those? [01:48:01] Speaker 3: I have no idea. [01:48:03] Speaker 2: No idea? [01:48:04] Speaker 3: No. [01:48:07] Speaker 2: Never saw him again after Robert was gone. [01:48:09] Speaker 3: No. [01:48:10] Speaker 2: You mentioned on direct that Robert did drugs too, is that right? [01:48:24] Speaker 3: No. [01:48:25] Speaker 2: Robert didn't do drugs? [01:48:27] Speaker 3: No. [01:48:29] Speaker 2: So he was the only one in the household that wasn't doing drugs, is that right? [01:48:33] Speaker 3: I wasn't doing drugs either. [01:48:34] Speaker 2: You were drunk. [01:48:36] Speaker 3: That's not drugs. Well, if you want to call it a drug, yes, I was drinking. Yes. [01:48:45] Speaker 2: You ever do crack cocaine? [01:48:47] Speaker 3: No. [01:48:49] Speaker 2: Is that a yes or no? [01:48:50] Speaker 3: No. [01:48:51] Speaker 2: So Cicely walks in here and says she actually happened to watch you do crack cocaine, once again she's going to be lying. [01:48:58] Speaker 3: I don't know when she would say that, no. [01:49:08] Speaker 2: I got lost in my questioning. In 2007 you came back up to Texas through Mexico, is that right? [01:49:19] Speaker 3: January 6, 2007. [01:49:20] Speaker 2: Just, is it right, yes or no? [01:49:23] Speaker 3: No, I didn't come here in 2007. [01:49:25] Speaker 2: Six? [01:49:26] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:49:28] Speaker 2: Where was Rimey? [01:49:29] Speaker 3: Who? [01:49:31] Speaker 2: The guy that you married in Jamaica, your husband? [01:49:34] Speaker 3: Rimey, yes. [01:49:35] Speaker 2: Okay, where is he? In Westmoreland. [01:49:37] Speaker 3: Did he come with you? No, he's in Westmoreland. [01:49:40] Speaker 2: I can't hear you. [01:49:40] Speaker 3: He's in Westmoreland. [01:49:42] Speaker 2: Where's that? [01:49:44] Speaker 3: In the country, in Jamaica. [01:49:47] Speaker 2: In the country in Jamaica? [01:49:49] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:49:50] Speaker 2: He's actually considered a missing person in Jamaica, correct? [01:49:54] Speaker 3: No, he's not missing. [01:49:55] Speaker 2: He's not missing? [01:49:56] Speaker 3: No. [01:49:59] Speaker 2: Wow. But he didn't come with you when he came back to the United States. [01:50:03] Speaker 3: No, he doesn't have immigration papers. [01:50:06] Speaker 2: And you never saw him again? [01:50:09] Speaker 3: Rimey. No. No. I divorced Rimey. [01:50:12] Speaker 2: Oh, so just divorced him, never saw him again. That's kind of the way you roll, right? You have a man, they're just gone, and you move on. Started with Robert, maybe it started before, but when it got to Robert, that's what you did, right? [01:50:28] Speaker 3: I had a relationship, but it was a very long relationship, not a short one. [01:50:32] Speaker 2: But it wasn't long enough to not have you move to Charlotte, have a child with Robert. Well, you probably had the child with Robert first. You moved to Charlotte and set up the little family house. [01:50:46] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:50:48] Speaker 2: And then that gets old, and Robert's dead, and six weeks later, you're back with your long-term love affair in Jamaica. Do I have it wrong? [01:51:00] Speaker 3: No, you don't. [01:51:02] Speaker ?: No, you don't. That's right.