Missing Shell Casings in Charlie Kirk Killing Stun Courtroom

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Fast forward to about 12.20 or so, so a little bit after noon, the noon hour. What happened? What did you see? What did you hear? [00:00:09] Speaker 2: I heard an individual talking to Charlie, and I happened to kind of glance over the edge of the railing about that time. I could see the right side of Charlie's shoulder, so not his whole body, because he was underneath the tent, so I could only see probably the right side of his body. He was answering a question, the kid asked him a question, and then I heard a shot fired. [00:00:31] Speaker 1: Do you know what time that was? [00:00:33] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:00:33] Speaker 1: What time was that? [00:00:34] Speaker 2: 12.23. [00:00:37] Speaker 1: What did you see? [00:00:38] Speaker 2: At that moment, I saw him lean to the left. [00:00:42] Speaker 1: When you say him, you say Charlie. [00:00:45] Speaker 2: So I saw him go to the left, because I could no longer see the right side of his body, so he went further underneath the tent to the north side of the tent, so left. [00:00:54] Speaker 1: Okay. Can you describe the reaction of others that were there? [00:00:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, so then everybody started getting up and starting to run in more of a chaos kind of situation. [00:01:08] Speaker 1: Before you continue, can you describe a little bit? So you mentioned Mr. Kirk was answering questions, talking to individuals. Yes. Were there others present? [00:01:17] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:01:18] Speaker 1: Any idea about approximately how many? How would you describe it in your terms? [00:01:22] Speaker 2: In my terms, I'd say, when I was up there looking down, I'd say there were several thousand people, because you had it on the grass that was jam-packed in the amphitheater sitting on the grass. You had people standing on the back up along the cement. You had people that were on the second level, the Sorenson, and over by the Woodbury building. There was another level there where a lot of people were standing and watching. So it was pretty packed, several thousand people. [00:01:45] Speaker 1: So you mentioned you heard something. What did you hear again? [00:01:48] Speaker 2: I heard a gunshot. [00:01:49] Speaker 1: Okay. And can you describe Mr. Kirk's reaction? Was that simultaneous to hearing the gunshot? Yes, it was. When he fell to the left? [00:02:00] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:02:01] Speaker 1: Did you see the reaction from the crowd? [00:02:03] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:02:03] Speaker 1: What was that? [00:02:04] Speaker 2: Everybody kind of got up. A lot of people were screaming, standing up, and starting to run in all different directions away from the center of the tent. [00:02:13] Speaker 1: Okay. You're a police officer helping to secure the area, correct? Yes. What did you do? [00:02:19] Speaker 2: At that moment, I recognized it as gunfire. I left my post, which was right there on the south end of the Hall of Flags. I proceeded to, right where the fugal and the Hall of Flags meet, there's some outside stairs that I was starting to run down. As I was trying to get down to the bottom of the stairs, people were running up. People were laying down on the steps. I'm trying to jump over people to get to the bottom of the stairs so I can help stop an individual that was probably shooting. [00:02:47] Speaker 1: What happened next? [00:02:49] Speaker 2: By the time I got to the bottom of the stairs, I was informed on the radio that we had a shooter in custody. So I thought, at that moment, I was like, well, that was kind of fast. Obviously, it was close range, probably, because we had an individual in custody. Another officer came on and said we had an individual in custody. So I decided to, since the threat is gone, now I can assess for anybody that's injured and start looking for any medical needs that's needed at that moment. I started canvassing the area. As I canvassed the area, I was looking for anybody that was injured. I saw a kid on the ground that was on about the second or third tier in the grass next to a wheelchair, and he was almost convulsing. I thought he'd maybe been shot. I talked to the dad as I was running over there. He said that he was just having a seizure, that he was fine, he was not injured. So then at that moment, I observed that there was no other injuries that I could see at that moment. [00:03:42] Speaker 1: Okay. Was your attention drawn to anything else at that time? [00:03:47] Speaker 2: Yeah. So after we got some people kind of cleared away a little bit, I thought I needed to start preserving the scene because we had a crime scene. And with some of my experience and training to that effect, I decided now we need to contain the scene and help preserve as much evidence as we can. So I started pushing people off the grass out of the courtyard area because I knew that's where the crime scene was. As soon as we started pushing those guys out, my chief, Chief Long, that was right next to me, I looked down and saw an empty pistol holder that was sitting just on top of the grass. And at that moment, things had died down just a split second. I realized that the shot I heard was more of a rifle shot and not a pistol shot. [00:04:30] Speaker 1: And what causes you to say that? [00:04:34] Speaker 2: Just from being around firearms through all my trainings, the difference is, you know, a handgun is more of a short bang-pop sound. With a rifle, you have more of a longer, violent crackle sound. It's more of a violent kind of sound. It's longer. So that's why I recognized it. [00:04:56] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:04:56] Speaker 1: Is a rifle sound louder, typically? Yes. Okay. Going back to when you heard this gunshot, could you tell where it came from? [00:05:10] Speaker 2: From the direction? Yes. I knew it came from the east of me. [00:05:14] Speaker 1: From the east of you. Okay. So you see this realization comes to your mind. What did you do next? [00:05:21] Speaker 2: At that moment, when I saw the holster, the empty holster, I turned to my chief and I said, that was a rifle shot. And he said, I agree. And I looked up at that moment, right in the line of sight, I could see the Lossie building had a direct line of sight. So I proceeded to go look at that and see what was going on up there. [00:05:40] Speaker 1: Okay. Can you just briefly describe your route to the Lossie Center? [00:05:44] Speaker 2: So from the courtyard, you can go into the Sorensen Center. And like I said earlier, there was, on level one, there's some elevators or there's stairs. I ran up four flights of stairs, got to the fourth level of the Lossie building, and proceeded to the south of the Lossie building. There's some stairs, which is that breezeway between the computer science building and the Lossie building. There's some stairs that go up to the top of that, and so I went to the top of that. [00:06:13] Speaker 1: Is that the stairway that you previously described? [00:06:15] Speaker 2: Yes, on the outside of the Lossie building. Okay. [00:06:18] Speaker 1: And it's a public stairway? Yeah. Okay. Did you make it to the rooftop? [00:06:23] Speaker 2: I did. [00:06:25] Speaker 1: Do you know about what time you got there? [00:06:28] Speaker 2: I got there at 1244. Okay. [00:06:33] Speaker 1: What did you do when you got on top? [00:06:35] Speaker 2: When I got on top, I hopped over the guardrail. I noticed that there was an object which was sitting right about 10 or 15 feet in from the other side of the guardrail in the gravel. That looked out of place to me. [00:06:49] Speaker 1: And in relationship to where you hopped over the guardrail, what direction was that object? [00:06:56] Speaker 2: To the west of the guardrail. [00:06:57] Speaker 1: Okay. And did you recognize the object? [00:07:01] Speaker ?: I did. [00:07:02] Speaker 1: And what was it? [00:07:02] Speaker 2: It was a red and black screwdriver. [00:07:04] Speaker 1: Okay. Did you touch that object? [00:07:08] Speaker 2: I did not. [00:07:08] Speaker 1: Okay. I am going to refer the witness on your screen, Officer Bagley, to State's Exhibit 3.1. Let me know when you see that. [00:07:28] Speaker 2: Yes, I see it. [00:07:30] Speaker 1: Do you recognize what that is? [00:07:32] Speaker 2: I do. [00:07:32] Speaker 1: And what is that? [00:07:34] Speaker 2: That's a picture of the screwdriver that I saw that day on top of the rooftop of the Lossi building. [00:07:38] Speaker 1: Okay. And that's how it appeared on the roof that day? [00:07:41] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:07:42] Speaker 1: Is that a fair and accurate portrayal of the screwdriver you observed and found that day? Yes. You're on the state offers, State's Exhibit 3.1. Ms. Nestor. [00:07:52] Speaker 3: Your Honor, we renew our standing objection and object on the grounds that there's no foundation laid as to when the photo was taken or by home. Thank you. [00:08:05] Speaker 1: Same response, Judge. My previous arguments. And did you state that this was a fair and accurate representation as of September 10, 2020? I had said that day. I'll ask it again to the officer. All right. Officer Bagley, you saw this screwdriver you're describing on September 10, 2025. Is that correct? [00:08:25] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:08:26] Speaker 1: Is State's Exhibit 3.1 a fair and accurate depiction of that screwdriver that day, September 10, 2025? Yes. [00:08:34] Speaker 3: All right. Now, I want to go through with you your timeline. You mentioned that you started at the Hall of Flags, right? And then you came down. It took you a minute to kind of navigate the stairs with the crowd and the chaos and everything. And then you were in the grassy area of the courtyard for a bit. Is that right? [00:08:58] Speaker 2: Yes. So about 30 seconds to get down the stairs, and then I went right down to where the tent was. [00:09:02] Speaker 3: And that's where you found the holster? [00:09:05] Speaker 2: No. The holster was up higher. So I went down by the tent, so it's lower level. So as I came down towards where Charlie Kirk was shot, I went down towards the tent to see what was going on down there because I didn't know exactly what. I heard the gun shot. I didn't know exactly what was going on because I was above the tent. [00:09:21] Speaker ?: I'm sorry. [00:09:21] Speaker 3: I missed that you went down to the tent. So let me ask you about that. So what did you do when you got down to the tent? [00:09:27] Speaker 2: When I got down to the tent, Charlie was gone. I put him in an SUV and left. At that moment, there were still some people running around. So I decided to preserve the scene as much as I could with trying to escort people out. And that's when I went back in and started pushing people off the grass area to conserve any ammunition or any casings or anything to that effect. That would be around. So I wanted to make sure people were off and there was as much evidence preserved as possible. [00:09:51] Speaker 3: So just to be clear, by the time you got to the tent, Mr. Kirk had already been removed and taken from the scene. Is that right? Yes. Okay. So in your professional opinion, what was the perimeter of the crime scene? [00:10:08] Speaker 2: What do you mean by the perimeter? [00:10:10] Speaker 3: The perimeter. Like how far did this crime scene stretch? Like where did you want people to move off of? [00:10:15] Speaker 2: Well, first I wanted them all off the grass. Because, like I said, I thought we had a suspect in custody. So to me it would be a close encounter. So I was trying to push everybody off the grass in case there were shell casings or to the effect that it got on the grass. So after I pushed them off to that part and getting up to the top where I saw that empty holster. When I saw that empty holster is when things started slowing down for me a little bit. All the chaos and stuff. That's when I realized that it was a rifle shot, not a handgun shot. [00:10:43] Speaker 3: Okay. And that's when you saw the low C building and it occurred, you should go check it out. [00:10:48] Speaker 2: Yes, it was right in my line of sight. [00:10:50] Speaker 3: And correct me if I'm wrong, but you, the whole time that this is going on, you had an active body camera on your, I guess your collar. Is that right? I was right on my chest. [00:11:02] Speaker 2: Your chest, yes. [00:11:03] Speaker 3: Okay. And it was on. [00:11:04] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:11:06] Speaker 3: And it appears to me from reviewing your body camera that there was another individual who was with you that went to the low C building. Who was in civilian clothing, but appeared to have a gun. Who was that? [00:11:18] Speaker 2: I don't know who he was exactly. He had a badge on and I had somebody with me to back me up as I ran up the stairs to make sure I had somebody with me. [00:11:26] Speaker 3: So you don't know what agency he's from or where he's from? [00:11:29] Speaker ?: No. [00:11:30] Speaker 3: And he, it looked like he had a pistol. Yes. Is that right? A handgun, yes. A handgun. [00:11:35] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:11:37] Speaker 3: And so the two of you go to the low C building. Yes. Did, when you reviewed the videotape at the police department later, did you check to see if anyone had been on the low C building after the shooting, after this individual had jumped off that you've already talked about? Was there anybody else on the roof did you check and see in that gap of time? [00:12:00] Speaker 2: In that gap of time, no. So once I put up the barrier, I only walked up to about that point. Then I went down and reviewed the video from that moment on. [00:12:09] Speaker 3: So were you able to see, are you able to say for one way or the other, if anyone else had been on that roof in between when the person jumped off the building and when you came on the roof, are you able to say one way or the other? [00:12:21] Speaker 2: There was people up there looking for an individual that ran that way because when I first got told the individual ran heading north, we didn't know where the shooter was. So we started climbing up and looking, clearing the building. And it wasn't until I went to the PD and actually saw him jump off of the building that I knew he was off the building. [00:12:38] Speaker 3: Let me rephrase that because I think I either asked it badly or you misunderstood me. So let me go back again. So from the time that the individual that you spotted on the video jumped off the roof, right, the individual that you thought was in the prone position, between that and when you got on the roof, did you ever check to see if anybody else had been on the roof in that period of time? [00:13:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I didn't see anybody. [00:13:02] Speaker 3: So you did watch? [00:13:03] Speaker 2: I didn't notice anybody. [00:13:05] Speaker 3: You didn't, did you look on the video to see that entire, okay, that's what I'm asking. So you did not review the video to see if there was someone between you, that individual jumping off and you coming on if anybody had been on or disturbed that scene in any way. [00:13:19] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:13:20] Speaker 3: But once you put the tape up, you're, then we're confident from that point on the scene was preserved, right? By the way, where did you get that tape? [00:13:31] Speaker 2: Officers responded on the scene that he was down on the bottom and threw it up to me, so. [00:13:36] Speaker 3: Okay. So you didn't have it on you? [00:13:38] Speaker 2: No. [00:13:39] Speaker 3: And you didn't leave the scene to go get it? [00:13:41] Speaker 2: No. [00:13:41] Speaker 3: Someone threw it up? [00:13:42] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:13:43] Speaker 3: Great. All right. While you were on the roof, did you encounter any spent casings? [00:13:58] Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, no. That's why when I saw the prone position where a person would be laying down as a sniper, being around guns and snipers all the time, I was looking for a spent shell casing. I couldn't see one, I was looking over the edge, looking all over the place, making sure the gravel wasn't disturbed, and I couldn't find a shell casing at that moment. [00:14:15] Speaker 3: And that would be, the reason you would be looking for that was because some types of guns, when they shoot, eject a casing automatically, right? Yes. Some do. Some don't. [00:14:24] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:14:25] Speaker 3: All right. And then you also didn't find any unshot bullets? [00:14:30] Speaker 2: No. [00:14:31] Speaker 3: Okay. Are you aware of there being a bullet found on another roof? [00:14:36] Speaker 2: I'm not aware. [00:14:37] Speaker 3: In the vicinity? Are you aware of another bullet being found on the scene, not on the roof of the Loci building? [00:14:43] Speaker ?: I know. Okay.