‘Let the scientists speak’: Ex-CDC official checks Trump as Hantavirus response stirs up concern

[0:00] Spanish authorities are preparing for the expected arrival tomorrow of the cruise ship [0:04] where a deadly outbreak of hantavirus was discovered. So far, at least eight cases of [0:09] the virus have been confirmed and three of those infected have died. 17 Americans are still on [0:14] board that ship. At least six other Americans who traveled on that ship have returned and health [0:20] officials in six states are closely monitoring those people and anyone that could have been [0:24] exposed. But there are zero reported cases in the states and the World Health Organization says the [0:30] risk to the wider public is low and that this is not like COVID. What may be more concerning is the [0:37] U.S.'s response to the outbreak. The New York Times notes that it took nearly a month after the first [0:43] patient's death for the CDC to set up a team to respond to the outbreak. They say, quote, [0:48] the administration's sluggish response and lack of communication suggests the United States is [0:53] ill-prepared for a larger health crisis. And because of deep staffing cuts the Trump administration [0:59] has made to the CDC and other health agencies, the government has far fewer people to respond to [1:05] outbreaks. And while the WHO has been coordinating efforts, the Times points out because President [1:11] Trump withdrew the country from the World Health Organization, the United States does not receive [1:16] regular information from member states about emerging health threats. Joining us now is Dr. [1:21] Daniel Jernigan, former CDC director of the National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic [1:29] Infectious Diseases. He resigned in protest from the CDC last year following the firing of then-CDC [1:35] director Susan Menares. Dr. Jernigan, thank you so much. So first, can you explain to us what the [1:42] Hantavirus is and what this rare strain is? Give us a reality check, please. [1:48] Yeah, sure. And so this is a virus that normally hangs out with rodents. It's very common in rodent [1:55] populations. But people, when they come in contact with those rats or those other kinds of rodents, [2:00] they can get infected through the feces, through the urine, through things that get kicked up in the air. [2:05] Once you get that into your body, these viruses in the South America and in North America cause a thing [2:12] called Hantavirus Cardiopulmonary Syndrome. That just means that it infects the lungs, infects the heart, [2:19] and such that your vessels open up and you start to leak fluid and you can't breathe. So this is a bad [2:26] disease. You can have a case fatality ratio of about 30 to 40 percent. But even though it is bad and lethal, [2:33] it's not that easy to get. It is actually pretty hard for it to get from one person to another. [2:39] And I think it's important to recognize that right now, this is not a pandemic that is starting. This [2:45] isn't another COVID. And the risk to the American public is extremely low. [2:49] Thank you for that reality check. I think it's calming some people's nerves. I am people [2:55] for a lot of reasons. But when you look at what we've seen at the CDC, you left because of what [3:02] was going on with Dr. Menares. A lot of people have the RFK Jr., who's the head of HHS, CDC is under [3:11] there. He fired all the cruise ship inspectors. A Hantavirus outbreak starts on this one ship then. [3:17] With all that the American people have seen when it comes to the HHS and the CDC and this [3:25] administration and how it gaslights them on everything, who should they be looking to for [3:30] information as they watch this situation unfold? So there's a couple of things there and that has [3:37] to do with confidence. And so who do I have confidence in? I have confidence in those staff [3:43] that are involved in this outbreak right now. There are excellent scientists, people who have been [3:48] working in this space for years, sometimes 30 years. They're the world's experts. Where I'm having [3:54] some issues with confidence is with the political leadership right now. They're, I believe, making [3:59] decisions that are not necessarily in the best interest of getting the word out about what's [4:04] happening. It would be great if we could have more information. So the things to happen, I think, [4:09] would be to let those good scientists at CDC who are doing incredible work, let them speak, [4:16] let them do their job, essentially get out of the way and tell the American public what's going on. [4:21] Because they have information that would be very useful to hear from a scientist so that people [4:26] would not be so concerned about it. Right now, you're hearing most of it from WHO, you're hearing from [4:32] the news media. Let's hear it from the experts at CDC. Dr. Jernigan, I do want to get to fact-checking [4:38] some of the misinformation that's been swirling around about treatments for Hantavirus. But I have [4:45] to ask you, because I texted my family yesterday that I was putting a moratorium on family vacations [4:49] on cruises. Do you have any feelings about cruises as a vector for these kinds of infectious illnesses [4:58] and best practices that crews, staff and directors and doctors should be taking? Because some of the [5:04] footage is now trickling out, you know, cell phone video that passengers have taken as the cruise [5:12] director is announcing a death on it. And I don't know, it doesn't make me want to take a cruise. [5:19] Yeah, the cruise ships we know, because you put a lot of people together, are likely for transmission [5:25] to occur. The cruise ships compared to other kinds of vessels and other situations like hotels and so [5:31] forth. They're actually fairly well regulated. There's a vessel sanitation program at CDC that [5:37] makes sure that those vessels are maintaining the right amount of safety. And because of known issues [5:42] with norovirus and other kinds of viruses that can spread easily on ships, there's a lot of rules about [5:47] what you do to try and prevent that. This particular ship was one that was picking up people that had [5:53] unusual exposures and a very rare event where that thing was able to get onto the ship and cause illness [6:00] with other people. Right now, I think if you're getting on ships, you're going to need to follow [6:04] the appropriate kinds of infection control and good hygiene that you would normally do on a trip. [6:10] But at this point, I don't know that what we're seeing with this particular boat has a necessary [6:15] implication for those usual cruises that people take. And can we ask you about this Marjorie Taylor [6:23] Green tweet that she's been pushing false information, what I believe is false, that ivermectin is a [6:29] treatment for hantavirus. She posted on X that she had texted with her doctor and that the doctor [6:36] advised that hantavirus could be treated with ivermectin, vitamin D and zinc. Those of us who [6:41] refuse to lock down, mask up and get vaxxed took the good old horse paste and also developed natural [6:46] immunity. She's obviously referencing pushing ivermectin as an alternative treatment and the [6:52] cure for COVID-19. Can you give us your doctor's assessment of this treatment? [7:01] For hantavirus infections, there is not any drugs that really work. They've done studies to try and [7:08] find some that would. There are no vaccines that work. They're trying to find vaccines that do that. [7:14] The best thing you can do for hantavirus is supportive care. That is, make sure you get to a [7:18] hospital, get on a ventilator, get fluids and things like that. It is interesting the life that [7:24] ivermectin has. It shows up as a treatment for a number of different things. It's a drug that is [7:31] very effective for river blindness and for parasitic infections. It is not a drug that you use for [7:37] hantavirus and so I don't know that it has much impact because I don't believe that the hantavirus is [7:43] going to be showing up anywhere in your neighborhood. However, hantavirus is not a [7:49] treatment, excuse me, the ivermectin is not a treatment for hantavirus. Doctor, very quickly [7:54] before we go, in addition to all of this, the FDA has blocked publication for several studies [8:00] supporting the efficacy and the safety of taking vaccines, COVID and shingles. So you say that it's [8:07] important for the public to listen to the scientists, but I don't think the administration [8:10] is going to let the scientists get out there and talk. So can these agencies be trusted? [8:17] So that is an issue that a number of us that left had and it wasn't necessarily the people, [8:22] it was the processes. They were not following the science, not letting the evidence be what was [8:28] directing them toward the recommendations. With this particular study that was not pushed forward at FDA, [8:34] with another study that Dr. Bhattacharya did not let come out of CDC on COVID vaccine effectiveness, [8:40] these are both indications of how the administration is trying to stop the science [8:46] from coming out. That is not gold standard science that they purport to want to support. It is not [8:52] radical transparency. So the best thing that can happen is to let the science speak for itself, [8:58] let the scientists speak and let that science help drive us toward best evidence-based recommendations. [9:04] Hope springs eternal. Dr. Daniel Jernigan, thank you so much for joining us this morning.