KILLER GIRLFRIEND MURDER TRIAL — Ezra McCandless Testimony Pt. 1

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Good morning. Would you state your name and spell it for the record, please? [00:00:10] Ezra McCandless: My name is Ezra McCandless, E-M-E-Z-R-A-M-C-C-A-N-D-L-E-S-S. [00:00:22] Speaker 1: Okay, Ezra, I'm going to ask you to speak really clearly into the microphone because you're soft-spoken. Yes. So everybody can hear you. All right? All right. I guess the first question I'm going to ask you is why Ezra McCandless? Why that name? [00:00:39] Ezra McCandless: Why Ezra McCandless? Well, I have gone through a lot of changes in my life regarding identity and what really fits me. And I tried on a few names, but I found ultimately that Ezra's fit perfectly for who I am. What was your birth name? My birth name was Monica J. [00:01:01] Speaker 1: And did your name eventually become the last name Carlin? Yes. Okay. So why did you decide specifically, I'm going to ask you the specifics of both names and what they mean to you. Let's talk about the last name first. Why you changed your last name. [00:01:21] Ezra McCandless: I changed my last name not to change my last name because of family's sake, but to, I changed it because of the name McCandless is from an individual named Christopher McCandless from Into the Wild he's known for. And his love for nature, his philosophies for life, they were very in tune and aligned with who I am. So I honored him by taking his last name. [00:01:51] Speaker 1: And what about, and Into the Wild, just everybody might know what it is, just in a sentence, tell us. [00:01:58] Ezra McCandless: It's a novel. It's a book he wrote. Okay. It was a book written about him? [00:02:04] Speaker 1: Yes, about him. Okay. And what about the name Ezra? How did you choose that name? [00:02:11] Ezra McCandless: I was on a family vacation and it was just absolutely wonderful. And I spotted the name Ezra and I noticed how it's, it's more neutral. It's, it leans not necessarily masculine and it's not necessarily completely feminine. And I found that just, it felt right to me. [00:02:35] Speaker 1: At a certain point in your life, did you feel that being identified as female did not fit you? Yes. Okay. Why don't you explain how you view your gender? [00:02:52] Ezra McCandless: In high school, I found that I felt more comfortable being masculine. It was, it was how I identified at the time was, my alignment was very masculine. What about now? Now I'm, I'm fluid. So I, I lean now more towards my femininity as a woman. Okay. Okay. [00:03:18] Speaker 1: And has this fluidity been going on for a period of time? [00:03:23] Ezra McCandless: Yes, for a few years now. Okay. [00:03:26] Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you what might seem like a silly question, but just some people noticed. Have you been doodling in court? [00:03:33] Ezra McCandless: Yes. Can you explain why? I've been doodling in court because there's, there's times when this experience is very traumatic and it helps center me so that I can breathe through it and I can focus on something at the time so that I can breathe. Are you an artist? Yes. [00:03:55] Speaker 1: Can you just tell the jury a little bit about how you developed your interest in art? [00:04:00] Ezra McCandless: I developed my interest in art when I was as young as five years old. I've always had an interest in art and I've been doing it since then. And I continued to have a passion for it throughout high school and even in secondary school when I decided to take art and work for a professor of the arts and hang for a gallery. [00:04:22] Speaker 1: All right, and the other thing I want to ask you is what you, your height and weight are. So what's your height, first of all? I'm 5'2". [00:04:34] Ezra McCandless: And how much do you weigh? I roughly, I'm sorry, I roughly weigh a hundred and between 115 and 120 pounds. [00:04:45] Speaker 1: Back in March of 2018, approximately what was your weight? [00:04:54] Ezra McCandless: Approximately my weight was 115. So about the same? Yes. Okay. [00:05:02] Speaker 1: Were there times before then where you were heavier? Yes. I'm going to ask you about meeting Alex. All right. Yes. Why don't you tell us how you met Alex Woodworth? [00:05:18] Ezra McCandless: I met Alex Woodworth one night when I noticed him. He was writing alone inside a bar called The Joint. He just seemed very focused and I thought it was interesting that he was alone amongst all these people so focused on his writing. [00:05:40] Speaker 1: When you saw him alone focused on his writing, did you have any conversation with him? Yes. How did that occur? [00:05:50] Ezra McCandless: I was curious as to how he could focus alone on this topic. I approached him and I said, what are you writing about? Just tell me about it. [00:06:04] Speaker 1: When you met him and he was writing, I'm... I don't know. [00:06:11] Speaker ?: I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. I don't know if he was writing about it. [00:06:29] Speaker 1: I'm going to show you what has been marked as exhibit number 697. Sorry, I can't see anything without my glasses. And ask you to identify what this is. [00:06:53] Ezra McCandless: This is a table of contents of Alex's writings. [00:06:58] Speaker 1: Okay, you've seen this before? [00:07:00] Ezra McCandless: Yes. All right. [00:07:01] Speaker 1: And just to understand what writings they are, you were in court when the original copies of his journal were shown, right? Yes. And is this an accurate copy of them? Yes. All right. And just showing you, can you name the names of the journals? [00:07:21] Ezra McCandless: Yes. Do you want me to read? [00:07:24] Speaker 1: Yes, you can. And it's just so the jury is clear, does this book contain both the original copies of the original handwriting and the typed copies to make it easier to read? Yes. All right. Okay. So what are the names of the journals? [00:07:42] Ezra McCandless: Personal Notes, Research Ideas, and the quest to understand. [00:07:45] Speaker 1: Okay. That's the first journal? Yes. The second? [00:07:49] Ezra McCandless: Extra scraver. [00:07:50] Speaker 1: Okay. And the third? [00:07:52] Ezra McCandless: I met a man walking through a briar patch. He was looking for the rose promised by the thorns. Okay. [00:07:58] Speaker 1: Judge, I would move Exhibit 697 into evidence. [00:08:01] Speaker 3: Your Honor, can we just approach a second? Yes. [00:08:09] Speaker 4: Okay. First sidebar here, Chantelle Hebert. What do you think? She seems composed. [00:08:16] Speaker 5: She is. I mean, they're taking a very personal approach right now. They're trying to let the jury get to know her, asking her questions about how she chose her name and giving her a chance to explain her search for her identity. I think it's a way to make her connect with the jury right now. [00:08:31] Speaker 4: Yeah. You need the backstory on a lot of this with her because it is a complicated person that we're looking at right here. In terms of her intellect, she seems sharp. She seems like she's answering the questions. So far, so good, I guess, from the defense standpoint. [00:08:49] Speaker 5: Right, and she's, it doesn't seem completely rehearsed. She's taking her time with some of the answers, which I think is important. You don't want it to come off as, okay, you've given this answer 50 times already to your attorneys. But she's thinking through it and, again, giving a very humanistic approach right now. [00:09:04] Speaker 4: Yeah, and what they're trying to get in are these journals. Let's listen to that. [00:09:10] Speaker 6: A invitation will be received. [00:09:17] Speaker ?: Okay, I'm ready. [00:09:19] Speaker 1: When you met Mr. Woodworth. Yes. I'm going to show you page six. From the exhibit you just saw. Yes. Did, first of all, on that day, did Alex Woodworth show you his journal? Yes. And looking at page six, I'm just going to ask you to take a minute to look. There's two pages to page six, a typed version and a handwritten version. [00:10:08] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:10:11] Speaker 1: Are those the same, the typed version and the handwritten version? [00:10:15] Ezra McCandless: Yes, they are. [00:10:18] Speaker 1: Did he share with you what he had written on that day? [00:10:23] Ezra McCandless: Yes, he did share with me. [00:10:25] Speaker 1: Did you also read it at a later date? [00:10:27] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:10:27] Speaker 1: All right. I'm going to put this on the, oh, mine. [00:10:40] Ezra McCandless: Okay, first off, all right. [00:10:56] Speaker 1: And just to clarify the record, this is a journal entry from August 8th, 2017, right? Okay, so just to show what the handwritten version looks like, is this the handwritten version? Yes. All right, now so we can read it, I'm going to show you the typed version. Huh? Okay. So, in this typed version, after, it starts with a quotation, right? Yes. And that's from a book? Yes. Do you know who the author of that book is? [00:11:34] Ezra McCandless: No, I cannot remember. Okay, that's fine. Can you read the next sentence to the jury? I am oddly preoccupied with the concept of cannibalism, not quite with the actual cannibalism practice, but rather the indwelling metaphors our understanding actually works with. [00:11:57] Speaker 1: All right. The essay, what does the essay go on to talk about without having to read? [00:12:03] Ezra McCandless: Cannibalism is mentioned in this essay a few times, it goes on to deal with the concepts of metaphorical cannibalism and the concept of cannibalism itself as what cannibalism renders you as, and the anxieties and the fears and being a meal in a sense. [00:12:30] Speaker 1: Is it fair to say, or is it fair to say, or is it fair to say, or is it fair to say, or is your interpretation of the essay that it is philosophical in nature? Yes. As opposed to literal in nature? [00:12:41] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:12:46] Speaker 1: I'll come back to his writings on cannibalism, but I'm going to ask you a little more about that conversation with him. Yes. Aside from looking at his journal about cannibalism, what discussions did you and Alex Woodworth have at that time? [00:13:05] Ezra McCandless: Well, I was, he caught me right away because I thought it was quite a peculiar subject, cannibalism, and I was interested in what he meant. What I understood, he was speaking of it philosophically, and I also wanted his ideas and his concepts of literally cannibalism. So, we talked back and forth about a few artists that have partaken in cannibalism that he mentioned. We spoke about his, the anxieties of, and what it means for someone to consume another. [00:13:42] Speaker 1: What did he say that, at that time, on August 8th, or roughly August 8th, of 2017, what did he tell you about what he meant by consuming another? [00:13:56] Speaker 3: Objection, hearsay, Your Honor. [00:14:02] Speaker 6: Overrule. Thank you. Again, we have had a PTR ruling on this, and it doesn't go to the truth of the matter. It only goes to what Ms. McCandless heard or understood, or what was in her mind. So, you may proceed. [00:14:16] Speaker 3: As long as we're on that understanding, then that's fine. I withdraw the objection. [00:14:21] Ezra McCandless: Can you ask the question again, please? [00:14:25] Speaker 1: Sure. Actually, I'll have the court reporter read it back, so it's exactly the same. [00:14:30] Ezra McCandless: Okay. [00:14:38] Speaker 7: Okay, so what did he say at that time, on August 8th, or roughly August 8th, of 2017, what did he tell you about... Oh, hold on. What did he tell you about what he meant by consuming others? [00:15:04] Ezra McCandless: Thank you. At that time, when we were deep in this discussion, he mostly talked about the philosophical sense, and he also mentioned the fact that often individuals partook in cannibalism because it was, in essence, a consumption of one's power to take in another's flesh. Okay. [00:15:29] Speaker 1: All right. Besides cannibalism, did you talk about other things with him that evening? Yes. All right. At some point, was your conversation interrupted by another person? It was. Who came over to interrupt your conversation? [00:15:40] Ezra McCandless: My boyfriend at the time, Jason, pulled me aside, and he kind of interrupted our conversation. [00:15:46] Speaker 1: What impressions or feelings did you have after Jason interrupted your conversation? [00:15:57] Ezra McCandless: About him interrupting? [00:15:58] Speaker 1: Yes. About him interrupting. [00:16:00] Ezra McCandless: Well, I felt that my conversation was cut short, that I had plenty more to talk about. [00:16:07] Speaker 1: Did you, were you able to then continue your conversation with Alex Woodworth? Yes. Why don't you just summarize that for us? What else you talked about? [00:16:18] Ezra McCandless: Well, we went out for a smoke and we started talking about our love for spiders because we both noticed a spider in the window sill or the, a spider web, we noticed it at the same time. [00:16:33] Speaker 1: Okay. So that first time that you talked to Alex, how long, about, if you can remember approximately, how long do you think your conversation was with him on that particular date? [00:16:50] Ezra McCandless: In whole, I think our conversation was about an hour. [00:16:54] Speaker 1: Okay. Did, um, you, uh, continue your friendship after that? Yes. And, um, did you eventually become more than just friends? Yes. All right. We're going to return to that. But right now I'm going to get into a different topic with you. All right. I'm going to ask you about Jason Mangle. [00:17:13] Ezra McCandless: All right. [00:17:14] Speaker 1: Um, tell us briefly how you met Jason. [00:17:19] Ezra McCandless: I met Jason outside of a coffee shop one night after a music festival. What's the name of that coffee shop? Racy Delanes. [00:17:28] Speaker 1: All right. Um, and just tell us a little bit about meeting him. [00:17:32] Ezra McCandless: He let out a big sigh and I was curious why he was doing that. Seemed quite frustrated. So I said, well, what's the matter? And we just, we instantly started talking and we talked almost all night. [00:17:46] Speaker 1: After that all night conversation, what happened with you and Jason? [00:17:51] Ezra McCandless: Well, after we exchanged information, we had begun texting and back and forth and we started seeing each other after. At that time, where were you living? I was living with my mother in Stanley, Wisconsin. [00:18:03] Speaker 1: The texting went on and did it, texting lead to dating? Yes. You sound kind of happy about that or not happy, intense, I would say, would be the word. [00:18:19] Ezra McCandless: Well, we fell in love quite fast because we had just so much in common. [00:18:26] Speaker 1: And how, in the beginning of that relationship, how would you characterize how Jason treated you? [00:18:32] Ezra McCandless: He treated me very well. [00:18:38] Speaker 1: What was the age difference or what is the age difference between you and Jason Mangle? [00:18:43] Ezra McCandless: It's about 13, 14 years apart. [00:18:46] Speaker 1: Do you know how old you were when you met him? [00:18:49] Ezra McCandless: Yes, I was about 19. [00:18:51] Speaker 1: Did you know how old he was? Yes. How old was he then? If you recall. [00:18:58] Ezra McCandless: He was about 34. [00:19:00] Speaker 1: All right. So that's how you remember? Yeah. All right. So there's about a 15 or so year age difference between the two of you? Yes. Did you realize that right away when you met him? Yes. How did you feel about that? That age difference specifically? [00:19:17] Ezra McCandless: The age difference? Well, I wasn't concerned necessarily that we had an age gap. I felt a bit awkward that he was so much older than me and he was even close to my own parents' age. [00:19:36] Speaker 1: Did there come a time in your relationship where you got pregnant? [00:19:40] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:19:41] Speaker 1: How did you discover that? [00:19:43] Ezra McCandless: I was very sick and I had been throwing up for weeks and I decided to go buy a pregnancy test and take it. [00:19:53] Speaker 1: So when you say buy a pregnancy test, do you mean those kinds they sell in the drugstore that give you a line? Yes. All right. So where were you when you took the pregnancy test? [00:20:03] Ezra McCandless: Do you remember? I was at a gas station. [00:20:06] Speaker 1: And did you tell Jason about it? [00:20:10] Ezra McCandless: Yes, I did. [00:20:13] Speaker 1: How did he react? [00:20:16] Ezra McCandless: He seemed anxious and he wanted to go get the test confirmed at the doctor's and it was hard to really read what he was thinking at the time. [00:20:32] Speaker 1: Did you go to the doctor? [00:20:34] Ezra McCandless: Yes, I did. [00:20:35] Speaker 1: After, and what was the result from the doctor's office? [00:20:40] Ezra McCandless: I was in fact pregnant. [00:20:43] Speaker 1: Ultimately, what did you decide to do about that pregnancy? [00:20:49] Ezra McCandless: I ultimately decided to terminate the pregnancy early on. Why? I wasn't sure what to do at that time. I was scared. I was so young. I was confused at to really what to do. So I decided I was it felt rushed. I decided to terminate the pregnancy. [00:21:18] Speaker 1: And would it be fair to say that even then you had very conflicted feelings? Yes. [00:21:27] Speaker 3: Objection, leading. Sistine. Hi. [00:21:30] Speaker 1: How did terminating the pregnancy make you feel? I felt very empty after. [00:21:36] Ezra McCandless: I felt very, it hurt emotionally and physically and it made me feel alone and very empty. [00:21:52] Speaker 1: So after terminating the pregnancy, did you tell Jason you did not want him in the room? [00:22:02] Ezra McCandless: I did, yes. Why? I felt overwhelmingly ashamed and I just felt like I didn't want to have him witness me like that. I didn't want him to. [00:22:19] Speaker 1: So this abortion and its aftermath, was there a change at all to your relationship? [00:22:27] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:22:28] Speaker 1: Why don't you tell us about that? [00:22:31] Ezra McCandless: After the abortion, things between me and my partner and Jason, it caused a lot of distance between us. He began sleeping on the couch and he rejected physical intimacy, even holding my hand at times. [00:22:52] Speaker 1: Just so we set the date, do you recall the date that you terminated your pregnancy? [00:22:57] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:22:58] Speaker 1: When was it? [00:22:59] Ezra McCandless: The only date that I could schedule was October 6th. [00:23:04] Speaker 1: Is that a significant day to you in another way? [00:23:08] Ezra McCandless: Yes. Why? It's my birthday. [00:23:11] Speaker 1: So you said he started sleeping on the couch. Yes. Lacked physical intimacy, wouldn't even hold your hand. Were there other things going on in your relationship that made you feel uneasy or unhappy? Yes. Why don't you tell us about those? [00:23:27] Ezra McCandless: Jason and I started feeling frustrated and I felt very micromanaged at the time. He was controlling me in many ways and micromanaging me and we had started to grow apart as a couple. [00:23:48] Speaker 1: Were there anything that he did that made you feel physically uncomfortable? [00:23:52] Ezra McCandless: Yes. He never hit me but he would be very erratic with his gestures and sometimes he would throw things or break things and it just made me uneasy. [00:24:09] Speaker 1: Did he make accusations of you at all? Yes. Why don't you give us an example? [00:24:15] Ezra McCandless: An example of an accusation is that I was clumsy and that I would lose his things all of the time. And there was a time where he got very heated over a Sharpie marker even and it caused an argument between us. [00:24:33] Speaker 1: What did he say about the Sharpie marker? [00:24:35] Ezra McCandless: That I misplaced it on purpose and I'm so stupid for losing things all the time. I shouldn't touch his things. That's about what it was about. [00:24:50] Speaker 1: You were in court when Jenna van de Zant testified? Yes. And she identified herself as, well first of all did Jason have a roommate back at that time? Yes he did. What was that roommates name? [00:25:02] Ezra McCandless: His name was Alexander Zink. [00:25:05] Speaker 1: And what was Jenna van de Zant's relationship to Alexander Zink? [00:25:09] Ezra McCandless: They were boyfriend and girlfriend. [00:25:14] Speaker 1: Was she somebody that at that time you became close to? Yes. You heard her testify about Jason criticizing your makeup or what was that about? [00:25:26] Ezra McCandless: Well he would at times criticize my makeup. He would say I looked like a clown or he would criticize my weight even though at that time I was very small from being sick. And he just anything he could really pick at he would. [00:25:47] Speaker 1: You mentioned that Jason and your adoptive father Joe Shane Carlin are about the same age. [00:25:53] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:25:54] Speaker 1: And did Jason have a relationship? Well first, did Jason in some ways remind you of your father? [00:26:05] Ezra McCandless: Oh yes. He definitely reminded me of my father. [00:26:09] Speaker 1: Okay. Currently how's your relationship with your father? [00:26:15] Ezra McCandless: I love him and we're fine. [00:26:17] Speaker 1: Okay. But growing up, how was your relationship with your father? [00:26:21] Ezra McCandless: It was very turbulent. I was often afraid of him and intimidated and very put down. [00:26:31] Speaker 1: Well first of all, let me ask about both your parents, your mother and your father. When you grew up. Yes. At a certain point, did your mother and Joe Shane get a divorce? Yes. [00:26:43] Ezra McCandless: How old were you then? I was in middle school, so 11, 12. [00:26:50] Speaker 1: Before the divorce, what word would you say most described that household? [00:26:56] Ezra McCandless: It was like living with two tornadoes in one room. All right. [00:27:01] Speaker 1: And focusing on that. Yes. The tornado that was Joe Shane. When you say tornadoes, what do you mean by that? [00:27:08] Ezra McCandless: What I mean by that is they're both very strong, opinionated people and they just would often butt heads. And my mom had, she disagreed about ways he would discipline me and that would cause arguments. [00:27:26] Speaker 1: Was there a lot of time when your mom was not at home during that period of your life? [00:27:30] Ezra McCandless: Yes. Yes. [00:27:32] Speaker ?: She was working. [00:27:33] Speaker 1: And when you were with Joe Shane and your mother wasn't around? Yes. Tell us about some of the things he would do. [00:27:42] Ezra McCandless: Some of the things he would do when I was younger is he often, he was, he was very loud. He would always yell about something or he would put me down. He often called me stupid and he just, he would say I wouldn't amount to much and that I was slow. And he just, he was very emotionally abusive to me. [00:28:08] Speaker 1: How did you respond to that? [00:28:11] Ezra McCandless: I responded by just being quiet and I would cry and I would just often go off and be alone. When you would cry, how would he handle that? He doesn't approve of crying. He would tell me that he would give me something to cry about. [00:28:31] Speaker 1: Was part of your response of dealing with him, did you sometimes feel like you were like spaced out or lost a sense of where you were? Yes. Why don't you tell us about that? [00:28:44] Ezra McCandless: There was often times to tone out the yelling and the name calling that I felt very distant from myself. I would essentially just close off everything around me and I didn't want to cry in front of him. So I would, in that I would prevent myself from crying. [00:29:02] Speaker 1: Were there times where you found yourself in that state without even realizing you were going there? [00:29:07] Ezra McCandless: Yes, there was times I would zone out and I wouldn't even realize I was doing it at the time. [00:29:13] Speaker 1: All right. And getting back to Jason. Yes. Did he meet your parents? Yes. And Jason and your father, what kind of relationship did they have? [00:29:26] Ezra McCandless: Yes. Very buddy, buddy. They are very close with each other. Okay. [00:29:33] Speaker 1: So, coming back to the issue, leaving aside your family. Yes. Coming back to the issue of you and Jason and you're in this period where things aren't going well. Yes. What is happening at this point in your friendship with Alex Woodworth? And I'm directing you specifically to October. [00:29:53] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:29:54] Speaker 1: Of 2017. Okay. After the abortion. [00:29:58] Ezra McCandless: Alex and I, we began, he would notice me at the coffee shop and I would notice him more. And we started going on long walks with each other after he would close. When you say he would close, what do you mean? Closing up the restaurant, coffee shop, Racy DeLane's. [00:30:18] Speaker 1: Do you mean he was closing up because he was the last patron there or was he working there? [00:30:23] Ezra McCandless: Working. [00:30:24] Speaker 1: On these walks, why don't you tell us what you and Alex talked about? [00:30:32] Ezra McCandless: Alex and I, we talked about life itself. I would talk about nature and how I viewed things. And then Alex would talk about how he would view things and his philosophies and his ramblings as he would say. And often I was kind of the ying to his yang because a lot of his philosophies countered mine because mine are very in the sunlight, in the sunshine. And his are very much so a rainy day. [00:31:10] Speaker 1: Um, did you tell Alex about your abortion? [00:31:19] Ezra McCandless: Yes, I did. I, on one of our walks I shared with him what I was going through at that time. And he allowed me to open up about it and how I really truly felt and all of the pain that came with it. [00:31:34] Speaker 1: As you got close to Alex. Yes. Did you learn more about his past? [00:31:42] Ezra McCandless: I, I learned some things about his past, yes. [00:31:46] Speaker 1: And your relationship, I'm going to ask you some questions about his past actually. All right. What did you learn about Alex and his feelings as you became close with him? [00:32:07] Ezra McCandless: Feelings towards his past? [00:32:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, just tell us some of the things he shared with you. [00:32:16] Ezra McCandless: Some of the things he shared with me is that he often puts a happy face on when he goes back home for holidays. And at times it can deeply depress him. And he often felt like an outsider. That he had arguments with his father, I believe. And that he was deeply religious. I'm going to object your honor. [00:32:41] Speaker 3: I don't see, I don't see the relevance number one and number two. Uh, it's hearsay. [00:32:49] Speaker 6: Well, again, the, first of all in the hearsay objection, ladies and gentlemen, you're going to hear testimony about things that Mr. Woodworth may have said and things that he may have wrote. And they're allowed in this case, not for the truth of what he wrote or what he said. And this is, this is a difficult concept, I think. And you'll get an instruction at the close of the case and how, why this evidence is admitted and why it is allowed. Um, and, uh, so it's, again, it's, and lawyers understand this and hear it all the time, but it's not offered for the truth of the matter assertive, but only offered as it goes to the context and, and, and the state of mind. Ms. McCandless may have had and how that what she heard or read affected her. And so, um, now the second issue, um, what, I guess. [00:33:45] Speaker 3: Can we approach her? Yeah, okay. [00:33:59] Speaker 4: Chantal Hebert, what do you think? She's, um, she's composed. She's, you know, she, she seems natural, you know, like it isn't rehearsed. Um, what, what, what's your take? [00:34:11] Speaker 5: I'm not going to say that she seems likable, but she definitely seems like someone you could relate to. She's just telling you what her experiences are. This is a young girl. She's, you know, they, they made sure to highlight the 15 year age difference with the, you know, the guy she said they found love. Jason Mangold, yeah. Right. They found love very quickly. She moves in with him. She gets pregnant. They go through this, you know, traumatic experience together. And then there's this, another gentleman, Alex, who comes along, who she's going for long walks with. And they're talking about their philosophies in life. She described herself as the yin to his yang, um, saying that, you know, she was, her philosophies were very sunshine. His were very rainy day. Um, so it's, it's showing their connection. [00:34:56] Speaker 4: Yeah. And, and she's showing the jury who she is, which is a complicated thing. Um, this is a unique young woman. And, um, from her perspective, do you think she is picking up some empathy in terms of, from her eyes, what her upbringing was like? Or, um, do you think jurors are kind of turning on her base? Like, you know, she's all about her. She's a victim, victim, victim. [00:35:20] Speaker 5: No, I think they're setting the stage that everyone that she interacted with, um, affected her. Right. And they were all different individuals. Um, they're, they're making some comparisons with Jason and her stepfather. On the relevance. [00:35:32] Speaker 6: Um, and so Ms. Fishney will continue. All right. [00:35:36] Speaker 1: I want to ask you some questions about Alex and his feelings. Um, all right. All right. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to show you an essay. Okay. Okay. [00:35:47] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:35:48] Speaker 1: I'm showing you, again, from exhibit 697, um, essay called Words, dated November 6th, 26th, excuse me, 2016. Yes. All right. So, again, looking at the type and the handwritten pages, have you had an ability to look at them before and compare them? Yes. And are they, is the type version just make it easier to read? Yes. Okay. Um, now this essay was written before Alex met you, but have you read this essay? [00:36:26] Ezra McCandless: Yes, I have. [00:36:27] Speaker 1: And have you discussed it with Alex? Yes. Is this the typed version of the essay called Words? Yes. All right. All right. Looking at the second paragraph of that essay, can you read the second paragraph? [00:36:56] Ezra McCandless: Are you speaking of the paragraph that starts with yet? [00:36:59] Speaker 1: No, this paragraph that starts with do I wish. Do. [00:37:03] Ezra McCandless: Right on the top. So I've. [00:37:05] Speaker 1: All right. [00:37:06] Ezra McCandless: Would you like me to read this? Yes, please. Do I wish, desire to die? In a way, yes. In another, no. For the first, life is misery each day the same, exhausting. For the second, a wager of experiences that outweigh any present pain. The former is inexpectable. The latter is need of comment. Okay. [00:37:30] Speaker 1: The next paragraph. [00:37:32] Ezra McCandless: There is little I've enjoyed more than the physical intimacy. The contact under covers, list watching a film, for example. These have a way of grounding a shattered conscience. Regardless of any euphoria of reflection, her presence, her breath against me. The heaves of her chest cement me, pull me back together. Indeed, bliss is her heartbeat felt. All right. [00:38:02] Speaker 1: Now, fair to say those words are not written about you. This journal is written before he met you. Yes. Did he express similar feelings towards you eventually in your relationship? Definitely. Relevance. [00:38:18] Speaker 6: I'm going to overrule. Go ahead. [00:38:23] Ezra McCandless: Yes, he did. [00:38:24] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. And does he continue in this essay to talk about depression? Yes. What does he say at the top of this page, starting with the word or? [00:38:39] Ezra McCandless: Or in formula, my emptiness is what prevents any feel fulfillment. Or again, my misery blocks any happiness from occurring. Yet again, my illness makes a cure unattainable. [00:38:54] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:38:55] Ezra McCandless: Go ahead. How sad, huh? [00:38:57] Speaker 1: Does he talk in this essay about philosophy and how that helps him? [00:39:04] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:39:05] Speaker 1: What does he say about that? You can just summarize it if you remember it. [00:39:11] Ezra McCandless: Philosophy is kind of a vessel for him. [00:39:14] Speaker 1: And by a vessel, what do you mean? [00:39:16] Ezra McCandless: A vessel for is what I considered pain. [00:39:19] Speaker 1: Okay. Does, did he say that philosophy was like a way out or something that he could escape into? Yes. And at the very end in his essay, after he talks about escaping into it, what does he say? He says. And so, starting with those words. [00:39:36] Ezra McCandless: And so. Do you mean pity me? [00:39:40] Speaker 1: No, the paragraph before that. [00:39:42] Ezra McCandless: All right. And so, my attempt to escape is futile. I am trapped by the very trapped I was caught by. The longing to be otherwise, that alone. Yet, that is what I am, alone. My loneliness even prevents socialization. Too many times I have heard, you didn't look like you wanted to talk. Entirely because I longed for that very connection, I failed to even be recognized as feeling alone because of how alone I fell. Pity me, I refuse to utter such words. Instead, my only hope is to be as alone as I feel, so I can. [00:40:26] Speaker 1: Thank you. Were there other times that Alex Woodworth wrote about being lonely, empty, and misery? Did that theme continue in his writings? [00:40:53] Ezra McCandless: It continued. Yes. [00:40:55] Speaker 1: Okay. Let me ask you this first. Before I get to the themes of loneliness and misery in his writing. Yes. Did your relationship eventually change from being friends and confidants who went on walks and discussed philosophy into something else? [00:41:34] Ezra McCandless: Yes. Why don't you tell us about that? Alex and I started slow. We held hands. We hugged. We shared a few kisses. And then eventually we became partners. [00:41:49] Speaker 1: Were you still living with Jason during this time? Yes. When you say you became partners, can you just explain what kind of partner you mean? Sexual partners. Okay. And did he express desires for you to be vulnerable to him? Absolutely. [00:42:15] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:42:16] Speaker 1: I'm going to show you another essay of his. I'm just waiting to get it out of the book. [00:42:34] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:42:35] Speaker 1: Okay. What is the title of this essay? [00:43:00] Ezra McCandless: In quotes it says, "Come as you are, flaws and all." [00:43:04] Speaker 1: What's the date that this essay was written? [00:43:06] Ezra McCandless: October 29th, 2017. [00:43:08] Speaker 1: And again, is the typed version the same as the handwritten version? [00:43:12] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:43:13] Speaker 1: All right. First of all, looking at the very top of this essay, "Come as you are." Yes. Okay. I just want to ask you, without having you read the whole top, you notice that he talks about Caputo, Abraham, and God. Yes. And the Abrahamic story of Isaac and sacrifice. Is that what that relates to? Yes, it does. [00:43:53] Ezra McCandless: Okay. [00:43:54] Speaker 1: And was Caputo or just tell us about Alex and Caputo or that book. Was that a book he was fond of? [00:44:04] Ezra McCandless: He was very fond of that book. It was a staple in his reading and his philosophies. [00:44:09] Speaker 1: Okay. Does he also, in this, the last sentence in this paragraph mentions, if I'll just read it for you, alongside the obligatory, I want to find a poetics of erotics. Did he connect Caputo philosophy and eroticism? Yes. [00:44:29] Speaker 3: Objection. Leading. [00:44:31] Speaker 1: I don't think that's leading. I just asked if he connected them. [00:44:36] Speaker 6: It's a preliminary question. Okay. I'll give you a little attitude, so I'm going to overrule. Okay. It is leading. [00:44:43] Speaker 1: What, what do you mean by that when you say he connected those things? [00:44:48] Ezra McCandless: What I mean by that is that he wanted to explore them in his concepts of erotics. He wanted to explore the stories from Caputo and the novel about Abraham. [00:45:04] Speaker 1: Okay. And going to later down the page, all right, as it continues, I'm going to ask you specifically, I'm trying to make this easier for you to read, so you don't have to search. Thank you. Okay. Can you read that paragraph that starts with here I am? [00:45:26] Ezra McCandless: Here I am, come as you are, flaws and all. I wager myself and invite you to risk yourself. All right. [00:45:34] Speaker 1: Just stop right there. Do you know what he's writing about in this essay on October 29th? Yes, I do. How do you know? [00:45:43] Ezra McCandless: I know because come as you are, flaws and all was a discussion we had between each other often. It was something he would say to me. He would text to me and ask of me all of the time. Okay. [00:45:57] Speaker 1: And go ahead and keep reading that. [00:46:02] Ezra McCandless: All I, all of this is needed. I cannot command you to come unless I risk the same. In this phrase, I occupy both the Abrahamic, here I am, and the divine, come. If either parts fails, erotics fails, even if it succeeds. [00:46:25] Speaker 1: All right. Keep going. [00:46:27] Ezra McCandless: If I do not risk myself, I reveal the desire to possess. I am seducing, not loving. If I do not invite you to risk yourself, I become the ethical fool, the willing sacrifice. I am committed, but to someone who doesn't love me. [00:46:44] Speaker 1: What's he talking about there? Committed, but to someone who doesn't love him? [00:46:47] Speaker 3: Objection, help for speculation. [00:46:51] Speaker 1: Did he discuss with you what that line meant that he's committed, but to somebody who doesn't love me? [00:46:57] Ezra McCandless: Yes. We had this discussion, as we did in many of our discussions about, that I was still in a relationship essentially with Jason. So he felt that because I was still in that relationship, I was not fully committed to just him. [00:47:14] Speaker 1: This essay ends with him saying we hide our flaws and it is a feat to come flaws and all. Have you actually responded? Do you know what he's referring to there? Yes. [00:47:25] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:47:26] Speaker 1: Can you tell the jury that? [00:47:30] Ezra McCandless: What he's saying there is that it's hard to bear yourself to someone completely, to be vulnerable. [00:47:40] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Go ahead. [00:47:43] Ezra McCandless: That's all right. He asked me to be vulnerable with him, to essentially come to him, flaws and all. And I've often struggled bearing my flaws easily and openly. So it was this discussion and this essay we read together was about how I was and trying to bear myself to him and as he was asking because he bared himself to me that I should do the same. [00:48:12] Speaker 1: Now let's talk a little bit more about your relationship and its development. So this is written in late October. Yes. In that time in October, just what's the status of your relationship with him yet? Is it sexual? Is it on its way to being sexual? What's going on? [00:48:31] Ezra McCandless: It's at that time we were becoming intimate. Yes. We were very much so falling in love at that time. [00:48:46] Speaker 1: Did there come a time where you spent the night at his house? Yes. Do you remember roughly when that first time was? [00:48:54] Ezra McCandless: Roughly yes, I do remember. [00:48:57] Speaker 1: Okay. Why don't you tell us? [00:48:59] Ezra McCandless: It was late October. [00:49:02] Speaker 1: Could it have been the beginning of October? [00:49:05] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:49:06] Speaker 1: I'm sorry, not late October. [00:49:07] Ezra McCandless: Could it be beginning of November? [00:49:09] Speaker 1: That's what I meant to say. Yes. I'm getting a little confused. All right. And was Jason out of town when that happened? [00:49:16] Ezra McCandless: Yes, he was. Okay. [00:49:18] Speaker 1: You've seen Alex's roommates come in and testify, his former roommates? [00:49:22] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:49:23] Speaker 1: All right. Was Dave starting a roommate at that time? Yes, he was. Had you ever met him? [00:49:29] Ezra McCandless: No. We kind of avoided each other. [00:49:33] Speaker 1: Okay. And what about the other roommate, Matt Schreiner? Did he eventually become a roommate too? Or was he a roommate? [00:49:40] Ezra McCandless: He was a roommate at the time, yes. [00:49:42] Speaker 1: And did you socialize with him at all? [00:49:44] Ezra McCandless: Off and on we had socialized. We met each other at the coffee shop a few times. Okay. [00:49:49] Speaker 1: So when you stayed over with him, tell us how your relationship was developing at that time. [00:49:59] Ezra McCandless: At that time it was becoming very intimate is how I can describe it. We at that time had become sexual partners and we were sharing with each other a lot of ourselves. [00:50:18] Speaker 1: Despite the fact that you were close and sharing things. Yes. Was Alex still writing in a way that reflected and talking to you in a way that reflected misery or depression or unhappiness? Yes, he was. [00:50:31] Speaker ?: Yes, he was. Okay. I'm showing you an essay in exhibit 697. [00:50:31] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:50:32] Speaker ?: I'm showing you an essay in exhibit 697. [00:50:32] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:50:33] Speaker ?: Called "The Failure to Write." I'm showing you an essay in exhibit 697. Yes. Called "The Failure to Write." Dated December 21st. I'm showing you an essay in exhibit 697. Yes. Called "The Failure to Write." Dated December 21st. 2017. Yes. Are you familiar with that essay? Yes. Yes. And is it the same as the handwritten. Is the type version the same as the handwritten. Yes. Is it the same as the handwritten. Is the type version the same as the handwritten. Yes. Yes. Yes. And is it the same as the handwritten. Is the type version the same as the handwritten. Yes. Yes. And is it the same as the handwritten. Is the type version the same as the handwritten. [00:50:55] Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. [00:50:58] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:50:58] Speaker 1: Yes. Now. [00:51:00] Speaker ?: In that essay. [00:51:00] Speaker 1: In that essay. In exhibit 697. Yes. Called "The Failure to Write." Dated December 21st. 2017. [00:51:06] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:51:07] Speaker 1: Are you familiar with that essay? Yes. And is it the same as the handwritten. Is the type version the same as the handwritten. [00:51:13] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:51:26] Speaker 1: Now in this essay. Without. Reading. Can you tell us. Or just. I mean. Not reading the whole thing. The. Paragraph. That says this is supposed to help my misery. Can you. Can you read that paragraph? [00:51:46] Ezra McCandless: Yes. This is supposed to help ease my misery. But it only draws it into reflection. I want to say so much to you. But I cannot bring myself to speak. The words. If. Said to you. Would only hurt more. They would hurt you. And. Exuberate. Exuberate my own pain. [00:52:05] Speaker 1: Is that exacerbate? Exacerbate. That's okay. Then. The words that he says after that. He goes on. Can you read that? [00:52:13] Ezra McCandless: I know that I am not your priority. I am secondary to you. I believe that you love me. But your love for another is what you place your faith in. I am loved. But in a way that you can always give up. You believe that things can get better with the love you prioritize. And that means you believe you will abandon me someday. I am in so much pain because you love me. And still you hope to abandon me to my loneliness again. Can you see that your desire for your priority is also a desire for my annihilation? Can I show you this? Or is my only hope to be that your priority ceases to be so far the development of my own significance? Can you realize that I am your significant other in a way that I benefit from? [00:53:06] Speaker 1: Now this essay was written on December 21st, 2017. Yes. Okay, we're going to come back in a little bit to something that happened in December of 2017. All right. I'm going to show you another essay. This is from December 26th, 2017. Yes. What is the title of that essay? [00:53:56] Ezra McCandless: An Obsession with Misery. December 26th, 2017. Okay. [00:54:00] Speaker 1: And is this the typed version again? Is it the same as the handwritten? Yes. Okay. This is short. Yes. Okay. Why don't you read this? [00:54:23] Ezra McCandless: All right. Alongside my obsession with erotics, I am possessed to write about misery. The failing of happy consciousness. In all honesty, suffering is among my greatest interests. [00:54:36] Speaker 1: Okay. I'm going to... Okay. Just go ahead. [00:54:40] Ezra McCandless: Keep going. I'm going to read the terminology of illness. I'm going to read the terminology of illness, both mental and physical, but also with the sub-pathological suffering. The plight of a guilty woman who is sexually promiscuous interests me as much as those with cancer, depression, and dysphoria. The anxiety of perfectionism, of a short prognosis of lifelong, uncurable symptoms, is a game, as that is an overworked college student with a cumulative final, each differs from the others. But that there is misery remains constant. Love has been interwoven into my life, but so has object misery been. I recall my first love. I'm going to stop you there. [00:55:24] Speaker 1: Okay. Because he is talking, did he discuss this essay with you? Yes. And he goes on in the essay to talk about other people and their misery? Yes, he does. All right. And do you know, or did he talk to you about why he was writing about misery near the end of December? [00:55:46] Ezra McCandless: He was himself feeling a lot of internal pain and loneliness, even as we had a relationship together. [00:55:59] Speaker 1: Well, actually I'm going to go back to this. So, let me ask you, when you first met him, we talked about this a little earlier. Yes. And he was writing about cannibalism, right? [00:56:29] Ezra McCandless: Yes, he was. [00:56:30] Speaker 1: All right. Do you recall, did that theme continue in his discussions with you? Often, yes. And did he write about that in some of his other essays? [00:56:41] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [00:56:42] Speaker ?: Um... Okay. [00:57:12] Speaker 1: I'm going to just show you by way of example. This is an essay going back to August of 2017. What's the name of this essay? [00:57:54] Ezra McCandless: Dead to Me. [00:57:55] Speaker 1: And the date? [00:57:56] Ezra McCandless: August 6th, 2017. [00:57:58] Speaker 1: Is the type version the same as the handwritten? [00:58:01] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:58:01] Speaker 1: And looking at... I'll get this up to the right place. One minute. Just say I'm not great at using this. Although... This essay, can you just read the first sentence of that paragraph? [00:58:33] Ezra McCandless: Yes. Because you are dead to me, this love fails to truly be...fails to be truly erotic now. Though it may have been. Instead, we are speaking of cannibalism. [00:58:48] Speaker 1: All right. So, besides cannibalism in his writings, aside from that, this is in August. We've already talked about it. Yes. Did he continue to have these discussions with you about cannibalism beyond writing about them? All of the time, yes. What would he...did his expressions or his talks about cannibalism go beyond the esoteric or the philosophical from what you heard from him? Yes. [00:59:21] Ezra McCandless: Why don't you tell us about that? It went beyond philosophy at points when we would discuss erotics of cannibalism. And cannibalism in the sense of individuals in history and through the past and even artists who have partaken in cannibalism. Because of their ultimate desire to consume that individual. To consume that individual's power. Or to consume that individual so that that person they had loved would never leave them. [00:59:55] Speaker 1: So, in other words, I'm not quite understanding what you mean. The person that they loved would never leave them. Could you just explain a little bit more what Alex told you and what he meant about that? [01:00:09] Ezra McCandless: Yes. We specifically spoke of individuals, lovers, that partook in cannibalism and he consumed his partner. So that in essence, by consuming his partner eating him, because he was passed away, he was never away from him. He had absorbed his essence. So that in essence. [01:00:33] Speaker 1: Now, let me ask you about. [01:00:45] Speaker ?: Okay. And again, another essay. August 9th. Okay. Okay. What is the title of the essay? Violation. And the date? August 9th, 2017. So again, is he writing about you in this essay? [01:00:54] Speaker 1: No. Okay. Okay. [01:00:57] Speaker ?: So I'm going to show you just a brief part of this. [01:00:57] Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. [01:00:59] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. So I'm going to show you just a brief part of this essay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. [01:01:12] Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. Okay. [01:01:15] Ezra McCandless: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. [01:01:19] Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to show you just a brief part of this essay. In this essay, is he discussing a prior relationship with him? Yes. All right. Can you read this where it says distract me? [01:01:46] Ezra McCandless: Yes. Distract me is dehumanizing, unhuman. It is the request of a mind to flesh. It is cannibalism. The words haunt me, confirming that you had died to me. I was lift with a revenant. A facsimile? A facsimile? A facsimile of a person who spoke of a warm caress while offering a vampire touch. [01:02:13] Speaker 1: Now, in that essay, when he said I was lift with a revenant. First of all, in your discussions with him, was lift actually intended to be left? I was left with a revenant? Yes. All right. All right. And in that discussion, can you explain what a revenant, or not what it is necessary, but what Alex said a revenant was? Yes. [01:02:41] Ezra McCandless: We often talked about a revenant. When we would speak of a revenant, or revenant, we would discuss how, essentially what a revenant is, is an individual come back from the dead. A specter or ghost of sorts. They have come back to do unfinished business, or it is called, like, retribution, or unfinished business, essentially, is what a revenant comes back for. It was a topic we often talked about, because he would tell me he considered himself a revenant. [01:03:43] Speaker 4: Okay, fascinating testimony. Ezra McCandless on the stand, telling her versions of her life to this jury. We're going to push pause. You're not going to miss a thing. And we're going to take a break. We're going to come back and pick up right where we left off. Stay with us. Welcome back to Court TV and our continuing coverage. Ezra McCandless versus Wisconsin. Ezra McCandless on the stand. We pushed pause now. We're going to push play. November 2017. Get you back in. [01:04:16] Ezra McCandless: Reworked from July 24th, 2017. [01:04:19] Speaker 1: Again, is the typed the same as the handwritten? Yes. [01:04:23] Ezra McCandless: Yes. [01:04:24] Speaker ?: This essay. Yes. [01:04:24] Ezra McCandless: I'm going to ask you to read it from where it says, "I know now." [01:04:26] Speaker ?: It's just the next few sentences. I'm going to ask you to read it from where it says, "I know now." Just the next few sentences. I know now. I'm going to ask you to read it from where it says, "I know now." Just the next few sentences. I know now that you wanted to read it from where it says, "I know now." Just the next few sentences. I know now that you wanted to change my mind. I know now that you wanted to change my mind. I know now. I know now that you wanted to change my mind. I'm going to ask you to read it from where it says, "I know now." Just the next few sentences. [01:04:37] Ezra McCandless: I know now that you wanted to change me and be changed by me. [01:04:49] Speaker 1: You asked for my flesh. I'm sorry. I had that little... Thank you. You asked for my flesh. I'm sorry. I had that little... [01:04:56] Ezra McCandless: Thank you. You asked for my flesh. I'm sorry. I had that little... Thank you. You asked for my flesh. I'm sorry. I had that little... Thank you. You asked for my flesh and offered me yours. But so that we could give and receive back new flesh. I am yours. Become mine. I mistook the innocent play. Your desire for my hunger. I saw cannibalism where you asked to be seen erotically. Okay. [01:05:23] Speaker 1: Let's stop there. When he says, "I saw cannibalism when you asked to be seen erotically," do you know what he's writing about? [01:05:30] Speaker 3: Objection calls for speculation. Sustained. [01:05:33] Speaker 1: Did you discuss with Alex what he was writing about? Yes. Why don't you tell us what that was about? [01:05:40] Ezra McCandless: When I discussed this with Alex, he was speaking of... He was taking the other person in. He was consuming them wholly. Where they wanted to be seen erotically, lovingly, he was seeing them as something to take in, to possess. [01:06:00] Speaker 1: Did Alex tell you whether or not that reference was about you? Yes. And what did he say? [01:06:08] Ezra McCandless: He told me that it was in reference of me because of parallels of someone he was with in the past. [01:06:15] Speaker 1: I'm going to show you again the beginning of the same essay. Yes. Let me get it to this. [01:06:24] Ezra McCandless: Can you read this? I am warm. I am kind. I am good. When did I become so dull inside? I am not warm. I am so gloomy. I am not kind. I am so distant. I am not good. I am aberrant. I've got... [01:06:41] Speaker ?: Aberrant? [01:06:41] Ezra McCandless: Is that aberrant? Aberrant. Okay. [01:06:44] Speaker 1: I have gotten too good at being these things. [01:06:50] Ezra McCandless: Am I seen as a good as a person anymore? They aren't masks though. All right. [01:06:57] Speaker 1: Let me ask you about there where he's saying he's aberrant and it's not a mask. Can you explain or did Alex discuss with you what he meant by that? [01:07:07] Ezra McCandless: He discussed with me about masks often. [01:07:12] Speaker 1: One minute, please. All right. And can you tell me what he would tell you about masks? Or not tell me, tell all of us. Yes. [01:07:28] Ezra McCandless: What he told me about masks is that he often seen others and he often felt himself that he had to put on a mask to present himself a certain way so that when he was out in public or when he was at work, he would put on a certain face. And often he felt that it was always hard to always have to wear a mask with certain people. All right. [01:07:54] Speaker 1: In the same essay, I'm going to go to one more area. All right. And I'll direct you over to the words my touch. Can you see that? Yes, I can. [01:08:06] Ezra McCandless: Okay. [01:08:07] Speaker 1: Why don't you read that? [01:08:09] Ezra McCandless: My touch is a request. Feel nothing but me. Let me give death a face to you. Has my body ever taken someone's from there and gave it back different? I remember holding her with my coat, warming her already to human face. Did it consume her as she did me or was my futile attempt to possess but kindling? I am not warm, but I can offer myself to your blaze. Okay. [01:08:39] Speaker 1: I'll ask you to stop there. Again, did Alex discuss with you what he meant? Yeah. And I want to ask specifically about where he says, let me give death a face to you. Did he talk about that with you? [01:08:54] Ezra McCandless: He did talk about that with me. [01:08:56] Speaker 1: And what did he mean? [01:08:58] Ezra McCandless: He wasn't, he wasn't talking about death as in looking at the other individual and he's seen death. He was, in essence, speaking of how loving that individual was as death. It is, it's, it's a hard thing to just outright and say. Okay. [01:09:23] Speaker 1: Um. I want to ask you about the sexual aspects of your relationship with Alex during this time, meaning late October, November, December. All right. So during this period of time, can you tell us some of the, and um, I know it's very intimate, but some of the details of your sexuality or the sexuality or sex between you and Alex Woodworth? [01:10:04] Ezra McCandless: Alex and I, when we began our relationship, sex was very vanilla, I can say. It was. [01:10:12] Speaker 1: What does vanilla mean? Well. In case people haven't heard that expression. [01:10:16] Ezra McCandless: What vanilla means is that it was your, your average sex. It was missionary. You're, you're what a lot of people would describe as normal sex. [01:10:31] Speaker 1: Okay. And during this period of time, were, was there some progression from the pure vanilla into Yes. differences early now, November, December? [01:10:41] Ezra McCandless: Yes, there were. I encouraged him to explore himself and things he might want. And he started, we started practicing and doing these new things that he wanted to express himself. Okay. [01:11:00] Speaker 1: First of all, in terms of sexual position, was there a preferred sexual position from Alex's point, that Alex told you he preferred? Yes. What was that? [01:11:09] Ezra McCandless: It was called prone, as he informed me, and... Were you face to face during sex? No, rarely. Okay. [01:11:20] Speaker 1: What position were you in? [01:11:22] Ezra McCandless: From behind is what you can call it. And he would often express this desire for it. [01:11:31] Speaker 1: And were there objects he would use, uh, that impaired your sight at all? [01:11:40] Ezra McCandless: Yes. He, he preferred to have my glasses off and he enjoyed to blindfold me. [01:11:49] Speaker 1: Um, was there, uh, anything specific about lightness versus darkness? [01:11:55] Ezra McCandless: Yes. He, he liked it to be either soft light, a candle, or he preferred it to be absolutely dark. He enjoyed kind of the mystery of it all in the dark. [01:12:10] Speaker 1: How did you feel about that? [01:12:12] Ezra McCandless: I thought it was interesting and exciting. And I also felt, I am very visually impaired without my glasses, so I get a little uncomfortable at times without them. [01:12:30] Speaker 1: So, let me ask this. Did Alex refer to you as a boy? Yes. Do you know why he referred you, to you as a boy? Did he tell you why? Yes. Can you tell us about that? [01:12:54] Speaker 3: Objection, relevance. [01:13:01] Speaker 6: I'm gonna overrule. Go ahead. Again, there's a limited purpose. Yes, this is for her feelings. Okay. Yeah. [01:13:08] Speaker 1: I, I think this has been out there quite a bit already in front of the jury. All right. All right. What were your feelings, or what did he tell you about him referring to you as a boy? [01:13:18] Ezra McCandless: Well, as our relationship progressed, I told him about how I identified in the past as almost strictly masculine. And he, he preferred that I presented myself in a masculine way. He often told me how confident I looked and how much he was attracted to me because he could call me a boy, his boy, and present that way. [01:13:44] Speaker 1: Did you present yourself as a male to Alex? [01:13:48] Ezra McCandless: Yes, I did. [01:13:49] Speaker 1: What about the word boy specifically? How did you feel about his use of the word boy? [01:13:55] Ezra McCandless: The word boy specifically, at first it was gender, as you can call it. But then the word became more possessive. I was his boy. It felt objectifying at times. And what do you mean by objectifying? I felt as if I was an object, that I was not as a recandalous, essentially, but I was just his boy. [01:14:29] Speaker 1: Um, Judge, I need a break. I'm sorry. I would like to take a short break. I need to take a short break. All right. [01:14:39] Speaker 6: Well, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take a 10 minute recess and so we'll excuse you for that. I'll rise. [01:14:47] Speaker 4: Okay. Wow. What a morning it has been. Ezra McCandless on the stand. And at this point, we haven't gotten in any. And we're close to the actual day where the victim in this case, Alex Woodworth, died. But we're getting a lot on her relationship with him, her relationship with her other boyfriends here with me to talk about it. Chantel Hebert still with me and Andre Smith joining us as well. Andre, welcome your take. I know you've been watching all of this this morning. How is she doing in your estimation? Is she connecting, et cetera? [01:15:22] Speaker 8: She's doing very well. Her attorney is asking the questions to give fluid answers. I think she's connecting to the jury very well. She's very believable. I don't know if we can say likable, but her story seems to match up up to this point. Like you said, we haven't gotten into the meat of what we're at trial for. But we've set a foundation, or the defense counsel has set a foundation to like her going forward, setting her up for what we know would be a tough cross-examination. [01:15:54] Speaker 4: Chantel, believable? What's your take on her so far? She does. [01:15:58] Speaker 5: She comes across as very matter-of-fact, very this is what happened, this is what we discussed. These were, you know, our philosophical conversations. And I agree that it's setting the jury up to think, okay, you know, this didn't happen in a vacuum. These are all the things that are leading up to it. This is what she knows about him, what she knows about his thoughts. And all of that is going to affect her on the day in question. [01:16:22] Speaker 4: How does it help her or hurt her that she is involved in such a unique relationship? Two of them, actually. I mean, first started talking about Mengele and her relationships, where he was 15 years older and was overpowering and was, you know, wanted to control everything, very controlling. And now we're hearing about this one where it's diving into an obsession with cannibalism and her showing as a boy sexually. This is complicated stuff. Does muddying the water help her in the long run to where jurors, you just don't know what happened in that car, how he died? [01:17:00] Speaker 8: Well, yes and no. It's very complicated because a lot of people don't know the instruction or the definition behind a lot of the LGBTQ rights, so to speak, in America. And her identifying herself at one point as a boy, and then obviously now saying that maybe I'll go towards more of the feminine side, it can be very confusing for the jury insofar to say how she acts. But I believe that when you look at the guy in question now, the victim that we're speaking of in the poems that he's writing, I think the jury is saying, okay, how did you identify and how did you act when he was the one in charge? And then towards the other one, how do you identify and how you act? And of course, we're on trial for the victim, not for the other guy. So I think you got to focus on how was she with the victim, nor say the other guy. That's my opinion. [01:17:56] Speaker 4: But he was part of it too. It's a very complicated scenario that this jury is now getting even more of an appreciation for with her on the stand. We're going to step aside, grab a quick break while we have an opportunity. The jury is out just for a few minutes. We're going to take a break. We'll be right back. You're watching Court TV Live. Stay with us.