Girlfriend Takes Stand Against Accused Sword Killer

[00:00:00] Speaker ?: Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give is the truth, a whole truth, and nothing but the truth, under penalty of virtue? Yes. Please have a seat. [00:00:11] Speaker 1: Everything we do has to be recorded, so I'm going to ask you to move a little bit closer to that microphone. You don't need to lean into it, it just needs to be in front of you to catch your voice. If you'd begin by stating your name for the jury and spelling your last name for us, please. [00:00:24] Kiara McCulley: I'm Kiara McCulley, M-C-C-U-L-L-E-Y. [00:00:28] Speaker 1: Ms. Murphy, you may proceed. [00:00:30] Kiara McCulley: Thank you. [00:00:30] Speaker 3: Good morning, ma'am. How old are you? I'm 23. Okay, and can you just get a little closer to the mic? Okay, is that better? [00:00:38] Speaker ?: Yes, thank you. [00:00:39] Speaker 3: When is your birthday? [00:00:40] Kiara McCulley: December 4th, 2002. [00:00:43] Speaker 3: How far did you get in high school? [00:00:45] Kiara McCulley: 11th grade. [00:00:48] Speaker 3: What's your mom's name? [00:00:49] Kiara McCulley: Lani. [00:00:52] Speaker 3: Let me go to October of 2022. Where were you living on October 28th, 29th of 2022? [00:01:00] Kiara McCulley: The garage of my mom's house, which is... [00:01:02] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:01:07] Speaker 3: Did anyone else live in that garage with you? [00:01:10] Kiara McCulley: It was me and Isaac. [00:01:12] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:01:17] Speaker 3: Were there any parks or features, public spaces near that house at 5941 Jaguar Drive? Yes. Can you tell us about that? [00:01:26] Kiara McCulley: There were a few schools and then there's a park just about a block away. [00:01:32] Speaker 3: Do you know if that park had a name or the cross streets near it? [00:01:36] Kiara McCulley: I don't remember. [00:01:43] Speaker 3: I want to talk about someone named Grace Jennings, okay? [00:01:46] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:01:47] Speaker 3: Do you or did you know somebody named Grace Jennings? [00:01:50] Kiara McCulley: I did. [00:01:51] Speaker 3: How old were you when you met Grace? [00:01:54] Kiara McCulley: I don't remember the exact age. I just know I was in second grade when I met her. [00:01:58] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:01:59] Speaker 3: How did you meet her? [00:02:01] Kiara McCulley: I was best friends with her little sister. [00:02:06] Speaker 3: Going forward into your early teen years, what was your relationship with Grace? [00:02:11] Kiara McCulley: We were friends for a while and then we started dating. [00:02:14] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:02:14] Speaker 3: How long did you date? [00:02:16] Kiara McCulley: About eight months, if I remember correctly. Okay. [00:02:20] Speaker 3: And what do you mean when you say that you guys dated? [00:02:23] Kiara McCulley: Like, we were in a semi-serious relationship. Okay. And what does that mean to you? That she was pretty much number one above me in my life. She meant everything, me at the time. [00:02:44] Speaker 3: What would you do, you and Grace, during that time frame? [00:02:47] Kiara McCulley: We would go out, we would have fun, just be kids. [00:02:53] Speaker 3: Did you eventually break up? Yes. [00:02:56] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:02:59] Speaker 3: Without saying anything anyone said or did, how did that breakup impact you emotionally? [00:03:05] Kiara McCulley: It was really difficult for me. I'm the one who ended it, but I never really liked it, though. Okay. [00:03:20] Speaker 3: After you and Grace broke up, did you eventually start dating somebody named Isaac Apodaca? [00:03:27] Kiara McCulley: I did. [00:03:28] Speaker 3: How did you meet Isaac Apodaca? [00:03:30] Kiara McCulley: I had talked to Grace, and we were just talking about meeting up at the Santa Fe Place Mall so that I could see if she was bringing back into my life. And when I was there, Isaac was there with her. [00:03:43] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:03:43] Kiara McCulley: And what happened? We started talking and hanging out. We were just doing what normal kids do, you know? And then later in the night, he walked me home, and the next day we were supposed to meet up, all three of us, and Grace didn't show up. So it turned into Isaac and I's first date. [00:04:03] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:04:04] Speaker 3: And do you remember the year that that happened? 2019. How long did you and Isaac Apodaca date? [00:04:12] Kiara McCulley: Three and a half years. [00:04:14] Speaker 3: Is Isaac Apodaca present in the courtroom today? [00:04:17] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:04:18] Speaker 3: Can you please point to him and tell me what he's wearing? [00:04:21] Kiara McCulley: He's over here wearing a quite nice suit and a blue tie. [00:04:28] Speaker 3: Your Honor, can the record reflect that this witness identified Isaac Apodaca? [00:04:31] Speaker 1: She has. [00:04:32] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:04:35] Speaker 3: When you and Isaac were together, did you have pet names or nicknames for each other? [00:04:40] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:04:40] Speaker 3: Okay. What was the nickname that Isaac would use for you? [00:04:43] Kiara McCulley: Puggle. [00:04:44] Speaker 3: Puggle? [00:04:45] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. It means baby platypus. [00:04:47] Speaker 3: Okay. And what was your nickname for Isaac? [00:04:50] Kiara McCulley: Otter. [00:04:56] Speaker 3: And you stated that you lived together with Isaac? [00:04:59] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:05:00] Speaker 3: Where did you first live together with Isaac? [00:05:02] Kiara McCulley: My mom's house. [00:05:03] Speaker 3: And when you say the house, what do you mean? [00:05:06] Kiara McCulley: It's the 5941 Jabbar Drive. That's the house that we were living in. [00:05:11] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:05:12] Kiara McCulley: We were in the bigger room at the front of the house. [00:05:16] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:05:16] Speaker 3: And the main house? Yes. [00:05:17] Speaker ?: All right. [00:05:18] Speaker 3: And how long did you live in the main house together, you and Isaac? [00:05:22] Kiara McCulley: It was on and off between there and other locations for most of our time together. I can't remember exactly how long. It was most of it. [00:05:32] Speaker 3: Did you ever live in any other locations on the property at 5941 Jaguar? [00:05:37] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:05:37] Speaker 3: Okay. And what was that other location? The garage. [00:05:39] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:05:40] Speaker 3: Why did you move to the garage? [00:05:43] Kiara McCulley: Isaac was telling me that my mom wasn't really that great for me, so I needed to get some space. [00:05:47] Speaker 3: Can you kind of describe the general layout of the garage? [00:05:53] Kiara McCulley: We moved things around a few times, but when you first go in, to the right of you, there's the TV and a table, and the bed is right in front of you. [00:06:05] Speaker 3: What size was the bed, if you remember? [00:06:07] Kiara McCulley: It was a queen. [00:06:08] Speaker 3: A queen? [00:06:09] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:06:12] Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about something that happened on April 4th of 2022. Without saying anything else, do you know what I'm referring to when I say that day? [00:06:22] Kiara McCulley: Yes. I know what you're talking about. [00:06:23] Speaker 3: Okay. Briefly, what happened on April 4th of 2022? [00:06:31] Kiara McCulley: I was having a hard time and debating things, and I told Isaac about what I was thinking about, and he had a complete breakdown and attacked me. [00:06:45] Speaker 3: What do you mean he attacked you? [00:06:47] Kiara McCulley: He started beating me up. [00:06:48] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:06:49] Kiara McCulley: Did you have any injuries? Yes. He broke my thumb and left a lot of bruises. [00:06:54] Speaker 3: And when you say you were debating things, what were you debating? [00:06:57] Kiara McCulley: Our relationship. [00:07:00] Speaker 3: Did you go anywhere for medical care after that happened? [00:07:04] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:07:04] Speaker 3: Where'd you go? [00:07:05] Kiara McCulley: I went to, oh, which hospital was it? It was, not St. Vincent's, what was the other one called? Sorry, it's been so long since I've been there. [00:07:16] Speaker 3: It's okay. You went to the hospital? Yeah, I went to the hospital. [00:07:18] Speaker ?: All right. [00:07:20] Speaker 3: And did you speak to the police at all about that incident? I did. [00:07:25] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:07:26] Speaker 3: Did you pursue charges for it? I did not. All right. Why? [00:07:31] Kiara McCulley: I didn't want to make his life harder, and I wanted him happy so he would come back. [00:07:35] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:07:39] Speaker 3: What made you, um, did Isaac say anything specific about the charges or about not cooperating with the charges? [00:07:51] Kiara McCulley: Um, I don't really remember. [00:07:53] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:07:55] Speaker 3: After that incident, did you get back with Isaac? I did. Do you remember how long from when that happened until you guys were back together? It was about three weeks. [00:08:03] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:08:04] Speaker 3: How, if at all, did your relationship change after that incident in April of 2022? [00:08:10] Kiara McCulley: For maybe a month, it was like a honeymoon stage, but then it went straight back to the abuse that I was getting. [00:08:16] Speaker 3: I want to talk about something called sex work, okay? Do you know what that means? Yes. All right. Um, is there another word for sex work? [00:08:31] Kiara McCulley: Um, there are a lot of different terms, but yeah. [00:08:35] Speaker 3: Um, is sex, is me referring to it as sex work, a term or phrase that you're comfortable with me using to refer to what we're going to talk about? [00:08:41] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:08:42] Speaker 3: Have you ever engaged in sex work? Yes. [00:08:45] Speaker ?: All right. [00:08:46] Speaker 3: Um, and what does that mean to you? [00:08:49] Kiara McCulley: I would have sex with different people and get money for that. [00:08:52] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:08:54] Kiara McCulley: How did that come about that you started doing that? In 2020, um, Isaac and I were living in an apartment with his friend and no one was willing to get a job or pay for anything and he suggested that I start basically prostituting myself. And I told him I needed to think about it and then he just said, I already have a couple clients for you, just go out and do it. [00:09:16] Speaker 3: And when you say he, who do you mean? [00:09:18] Kiara McCulley: Isaac. [00:09:19] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:09:20] Speaker 3: Um, how was payment rendered for the sex work? How, who, who got paid and how? [00:09:26] Kiara McCulley: I would be handed the money at first from the client and then I would take it to Isaac and he would hold onto it. [00:09:32] Speaker 3: Why give Isaac the money? [00:09:34] Kiara McCulley: I'm not even sure why I gave it to him. [00:09:36] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:09:36] Speaker 3: Do you know what Isaac would do with the money from sex work? [00:09:40] Kiara McCulley: Uh, from getting model kits to other things that I'm not sure about. Um, he would just spend it on whatever he wanted. [00:09:48] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:09:52] Speaker 3: I want to talk about, um, things Isaac would tell you. Okay. And, um, can you explain to me, uh, what, if anything, you would believe in general that Isaac would tell you that, that maybe you feel differently about now? [00:10:10] Kiara McCulley: Oh, there's so many things. Um, he had me convinced that he was an angel. [00:10:17] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:10:18] Kiara McCulley: Had me convinced of a lot of different things, even an organization that doesn't exist. [00:10:23] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:10:26] Kiara McCulley: And I understand why I fell into it now that I've looked up at it, but I'm very disappointed in myself still. [00:10:34] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:10:35] Speaker 3: What do you mean you believed he was an angel? He had convinced me he was the archangel Gabriel. [00:10:40] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:10:41] Speaker 3: Um, what do you mean that he convinced you that he was the archangel Gabriel? [00:10:45] Kiara McCulley: I, when I first met him, he told me that he was the angel, but at first I didn't believe him. And then he started telling me things that no one knew about me and maybe a part of me wanted it to be real. But then I, when I started really believing him, I just kept asking, tell me more, tell me more. And he kept feeding it. [00:11:08] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:11:10] Speaker 3: What sorts of things would he tell you as it relates to him being the archangel Gabriel? [00:11:15] Kiara McCulley: He, he told me in my darkest secret. [00:11:21] Speaker 3: Um, what do you mean by that? [00:11:23] Kiara McCulley: Um, it's just one thing I never told anyone, not even my mom. [00:11:28] Speaker 3: And you believed that he knew that because he was an angel? [00:11:31] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. [00:11:32] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:11:34] Speaker 3: All right. You said that he told you he was part of an organization and you believed that? [00:11:38] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. [00:11:39] Speaker 3: All right. Do you remember what that organization was called? [00:11:42] Kiara McCulley: He called it Ghost. [00:11:43] Speaker 3: Ghost? [00:11:44] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:11:44] Speaker 3: Do you recall when you started hearing about, uh, from Isaac, an organization called Ghost? [00:11:54] Kiara McCulley: It was maybe two, three months into the relationship. And he kept telling me that I could be a part of it and be a hero per se. Just one thing I wanted to do was be a hero to somebody. [00:12:13] Speaker 3: What was Ghost, as Isaac described it to you? [00:12:16] Kiara McCulley: A vigilante group that took out people that, by took out, I mean kill. Um, people who are like pedophiles, rapists, um, even drug addicts. Um, just people that were considered bad. [00:12:34] Speaker 3: Did Isaac tell you how he would communicate with other members of this organization? [00:12:39] Kiara McCulley: He never told me how he would communicate with them. [00:12:41] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:12:42] Speaker 3: Um, what did you believe Isaac's role in this organization called Ghost was? [00:12:47] Kiara McCulley: He told me he was the one who started it. [00:12:56] Speaker 3: And you stated that you, the purpose was to kill people. Did you, did Isaac make any representations to you about what he had done in the course of his work for Ghost? [00:13:08] Kiara McCulley: He had referenced that he had killed 40 people already, which is a high number. [00:13:13] Speaker ?: Okay. Ridiculous. [00:13:17] Speaker 3: Um, I want to talk about any sort of markings or ranking, uh, marks related to Ghost. Do you know what I'm referring to when I, yes. Okay. Um, what am I referring to when I say, uh, markings related to Ghost? [00:13:35] Kiara McCulley: So he had given me a tattoo on my hand that it was supposed to say this is, that I'm a part of it. I ended up covering it up. [00:13:42] Speaker 3: Okay. But I just, yeah. In October of 2022, did you have a, a marking on your body related to Ghost? Yes. [00:13:53] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:13:53] Speaker 3: And who gave that to you? [00:13:54] Kiara McCulley: Isaac. [00:13:55] Speaker ?: All right. [00:14:01] Speaker 3: Why, uh, Kiara, Ms. App, uh, Ms. McCauley, why did you believe these things about ghosts that Isaac would tell you? [00:14:11] Kiara McCulley: I, I, I'm not sure why at the time I've been doing a lot of self-reflection. So really, I'm, I just wanted somewhere to belong. [00:14:28] Speaker ?: All right. [00:14:32] Speaker 3: Did Isaac ever show you anything, um, related to ghosts? And by that I mean messages with other individuals? Or did he provide any physical proof to you that he was part of this organization or that the organization even existed? The closest thing was when he got on the dark web, but that's it. And what do you mean by that? [00:14:52] Kiara McCulley: He got onto some, I'm not sure how, but there was this part of the internet where he was finding like very inappropriate videos that I do not ever want to see again. Okay. [00:15:06] Speaker 3: Um, I want to talk about, about grace again. Um, in October of 2022, did you believe, did you have any beliefs related to grace and something that may have happened to you? [00:15:19] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:15:19] Speaker 3: All right. In October of 2022, what did you believe grace had, had done or helped do to you? [00:15:27] Kiara McCulley: I believed she was a part of a rape that I'm not even certain now is real. [00:15:34] Speaker 3: Um, how did that idea that grace had been part of a rape come about? Where did that originate? [00:15:44] Kiara McCulley: Isaac started telling me about a video that he found that looked like me. [00:15:49] Speaker 3: And what did he say was happening in the video? [00:15:51] Kiara McCulley: There was, he said that there was a gang rape in that video and it looked like a girl like me, but he's got it taken down and he never showed it to me, but I believed him. [00:16:01] Speaker 3: What role would grace have had in that video? [00:16:04] Kiara McCulley: Uh, he said that he, that he, that he, that he saw her getting money out of the deal. [00:16:17] Speaker 3: When you, when did you start believing that grace had essentially facilitated a gang rape for you? How, how far into your relationship with Isaac? [00:16:23] Kiara McCulley: That was about six months. [00:16:24] Speaker 3: When you started to believe that grace had facilitated this rape, how did that make you feel? [00:16:35] Kiara McCulley: It made me angry, it made me sad, depressed, all these different emotions, very confusing emotions, all hitting me, like, at a point where I'm like, someone I love could have done something that bad. [00:16:51] Speaker 3: Um, what specific feelings did you have about it as, as towards grace at that point? [00:16:58] Kiara McCulley: I was extremely angry with her and I wanted her to feel the pain I felt. [00:17:08] Speaker 3: I want to talk very briefly about, um, something on Halloween in 2021. So a year prior to, um, to everything that happened with grace. Do you know what I'm referring to when I say Halloween of 2021? I believe so. Um, briefly and generally, what happened on Halloween in 2021? I thrown a party and no one showed up. [00:17:27] Kiara McCulley: So I got really upset and I called, uh, one of my clients and Isaac came along with, and then someone put something in my drink and I was raped that night. Did you get medical care for that assault? Yes, there was a rape kit done. Um, after, you said it was with a client? [00:17:54] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:17:55] Kiara McCulley: He was a client turned to friend almost. Um, I thought. [00:17:59] Speaker 3: Did you or Isaac get paid for that that night? I'm not certain. After that, um, did you, did you do any more sex work? I did. Whose idea was it for you to continue doing sex work? It was Isaac's. [00:18:13] Kiara McCulley: And what do you mean by that? I kept telling him I didn't want to do it anymore. But he kept setting people up so that I could just keep getting paid. Okay. And this would be the only thing he wanted. [00:18:29] Speaker 3: Do you recall how, um, for lack of a better word, you, you would advertise for the sex work? [00:18:37] Kiara McCulley: Yes, um, there was an ad on Skip the Games, which Isaac put up for me. [00:18:43] Speaker 3: And what is Skip the Games? [00:18:45] Kiara McCulley: It's a website for escorts and prostitutes, I think. Okay. And was never personally on the site. [00:18:51] Speaker 3: Other than creating the account or the profile. Uh, did Isaac do anything else as it related to you and images being on the site? [00:19:03] Kiara McCulley: Um, there were a few, there were some photos that he took for specific clients. All right. [00:19:17] Speaker 3: In October of 2022, Kiara, um, prior to, to the incident, um, at that point, what were your feelings towards Grace? How strong were they? [00:19:30] Kiara McCulley: They were pretty strong. I just wanted her out of my life, but part of me still wanted her around. So I kept messaging her and then I'm like, wait, what the hell am I doing? Cause I felt almost hatred. It's on the thin, thin line. [00:19:48] Speaker 3: Who, if anyone did you talk to about this hatred for Grace prior to October 28th? [00:19:54] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. Well, Isaac, I've talked to him about it a lot. And then I know I talked to my friend Jeffrey and bright Brady and I also talked to my friend Kiana at the time. I know I talked to a lot of people about it, but I didn't realize how serious it was. [00:20:08] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:20:09] Speaker 3: Was there a part of you that wanted Grace dead? A part of me. [00:20:15] Speaker ?: All right. [00:20:17] Speaker 3: Let's talk about the night before everything happened. Okay. So we're gonna talk about October 28th of 2022. Do you remember anything about that day? Yes. All right. What do you remember? [00:20:29] Kiara McCulley: So that day, well, it was at night when everything started getting intense for me. It was, Isaac had straight up asked me, do you want to kill Grace? And I said yes, not realizing what he was about to do was bring her to the house. So I went to the park, told him to meet me there, and we'd just get it over with. By it, I mean the murder, we'd get it over with so he would stop being so pushy. And then he changed the plan completely. Okay. [00:21:07] Speaker 3: Let's talk about this first part, and then we'll go on in a minute. Okay. Where were you when Isaac said, do you want to kill Grace? I was in my room. I was in my room. And what do you mean by your room? The garage. The garage. Okay. And after he asked, do you want to kill Grace, what did you say? [00:21:27] Kiara McCulley: I said, duh. All I said was, duh. And what happened next? He told me that he's going to bring her over. I said, no, that's not a good idea. You know how I feel about this. And then he started saying, well, you could rank up and ghost and all kinds of stuff. [00:21:48] Speaker 3: So you told him you did not want Grace to come over after all? [00:21:59] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. [00:22:00] Speaker 3: Okay. And then you said you went to the park to get it over with? Yeah. What were you wearing when you went to the park? [00:22:06] Kiara McCulley: I was wearing LARP clothing, which was like armor and a cloak. Were you carrying anything with you? I had my sword with me and a few knives. Did you have any electronics with you? My phone. [00:22:21] Speaker 3: And what was your plan once you got to the park in terms of if Grace had come to the park? [00:22:28] Kiara McCulley: If she had actually gone to the park, I would have just attacked her was my plan. And then, well, first we were going to try and take her to the tunnel system, but try and convince her. [00:22:41] Speaker 3: Oh, I hate thinking about it. Let me stop you there. What do you mean that you were going to take her to a tunnel system? [00:22:49] Kiara McCulley: There's just a bunch of tunnels around my house. What do you mean? They're like drain tunnels. Like storm drains? [00:22:57] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:22:58] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:22:59] Speaker 3: And you said that, or did you actually make it to the park? [00:23:04] Kiara McCulley: I made it to the park. They did not. [00:23:06] Speaker 3: You stated that Isaac changed the plan. What changed? [00:23:10] Kiara McCulley: He texted me saying, let's just come back to the house. We'll figure it out from there. [00:23:15] Speaker 3: Did you go back to the house? I did. And when you walked, did you walk into the garage? Yes. When you walked into the garage, what did you see? [00:23:23] Kiara McCulley: I saw Grace sitting on my bed. Okay. [00:23:26] Speaker 3: How did that make you feel? [00:23:27] Kiara McCulley: A lot of anger all at once. And Isaac was just doing his thing. What do you mean by that? He was sitting there acting like it was nothing. [00:23:39] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:23:40] Speaker 3: What happened next? [00:23:42] Kiara McCulley: They started smoking weed and I was drinking a little bit. And throughout the night it was just, my anger kept growing. [00:23:54] Speaker 3: At some point in this early part of the night, not the next day, did Isaac leave? Yes. Okay. And how was it when it was just you and Grace in the garage? [00:24:04] Kiara McCulley: At that point I started feeling really bad for her because she had just gone through a breakup herself. Okay. That's why she needed a place to stay that night. [00:24:13] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:24:14] Kiara McCulley: And I did try to set my feelings aside and just be somewhat supportive. It was really hard, but I tried. [00:24:22] Speaker 3: Did Isaac come back? He did. Okay. After Isaac came back, how did the rest of the evening go in terms of how everyone interacted? [00:24:32] Kiara McCulley: Well, Grace started trying to sleep. I don't know if she actually ended up sleeping or not, but she was acting like she was. Isaac was at the foot of the bed and I was in Isaac's usual spot, which is on the left side of the bed. [00:24:45] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:24:46] Kiara McCulley: When you say Isaac was at the foot of the bed, what do you mean? I mean he was, so Grace was in my spot on the right side of the bed. I was on the left, just laying down. And Isaac was laying at the foot of the bed where, horizontally in perspective. [00:25:07] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:25:08] Speaker 3: And when you say the right versus the left side of the bed, which side of the bed would be the side that had the refrigerator next to it? Do you recall? That would be the left side. The left side. And is that the side you were laying on? Yes. [00:25:19] Kiara McCulley: Okay. [00:25:20] Speaker 3: And so the side closer to the large garage door would be the right side? [00:25:24] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:25:25] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:25:26] Kiara McCulley: And who was laying there? [00:25:27] Speaker ?: Grace. [00:25:28] Speaker 3: How did it feel having Grace in your spot? [00:25:30] Kiara McCulley: I did not like it. Very much did not like that. Okay. [00:25:36] Speaker 3: So while Grace was either sleeping or maybe not sleeping, and you were all three in the bed, what were you and Isaac doing as the night went on? [00:25:46] Kiara McCulley: We were texting and trying to figure out what to do, and he kept handing me knives and stuff too, and I just couldn't pull myself to actually do it at that time. [00:25:59] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. [00:26:01] Speaker 3: Chiara, were you dragging a dagger or a knife across Isaac's face at any point? No. [00:26:07] Speaker ?: No. [00:26:08] Speaker 3: Were you poking Isaac in the back with a knife or a dagger at any point? No. No. [00:26:15] Speaker ?: No. No. [00:26:29] Speaker 3: What if anything were you doing with a dagger or a knife as it relates to Isaacs back that night? Nothing. I was kicking him, but that's it. Okay. And when you were communicating with Isaac, you guys were both in the bed, I think you just said texting. What device or devices were you using? I was using my phone. Did you use any other device or devices that evening? Just the TV. Okay. For purposes of communication, what, if any, devices did you use? Just my phone. You stated that Isaac handed you some, a dagger or knives? Is that what you stated? Yes. Okay. Do you recall kind of where in the evening that started to happen? [00:27:30] Kiara McCulley: That was after Grace had seemed to have fallen asleep. But I do remember holding the dagger above her and he put his hand on the, on the pommel, the back of the, of the, um, knife and tried to push it, but I jerked back. Why? I just, it didn't feel like it was right. [00:28:01] Speaker 3: We've seen the messages between you and Isaac. Do you recall messaging back and forth? [00:28:06] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:28:06] Speaker 3: Okay. Um, did you use Isaac's phone at any, what, if any, action did you take using Isaac's phone throughout the course of the, the evening? [00:28:16] Kiara McCulley: I didn't use his phone at all. [00:28:18] Speaker 3: Okay. What, if any, action did you take using a cell phone that was on the refrigerator next to the bed? [00:28:25] Kiara McCulley: I didn't use that either. I honestly forgot that was there. [00:28:30] Speaker 3: Do you recall what your Facebook username or, uh, handle was? [00:28:35] Kiara McCulley: Uh, Froggy with three G's and an IE and McCullough. [00:28:39] Speaker 3: Do you recall what Isaac's Facebook username was? [00:28:41] Kiara McCulley: I believe it was Null Void. [00:28:45] Speaker 3: There's a portion of the night where you send, uh, probably about a hundred times, like a little, like, dog or corgi or, uh, sticker or cartoon. Do you recall doing that? [00:28:53] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. I was trying to annoy him. Okay. Get his attention. [00:29:01] Speaker 3: What, if any, conversation do you recall having about, um, cleaning up a mess? [00:29:07] Kiara McCulley: I remember some of it. Okay. [00:29:09] Speaker 3: What mess would you be planning to clean up? [00:29:12] Kiara McCulley: Uh, Grace's death. [00:29:22] Speaker 3: Did your sword have a name? Yes. What was it? [00:29:25] Kiara McCulley: Zira. [00:29:26] Speaker 3: Can you spell that? [00:29:28] Kiara McCulley: Uh, how did I spell it? I don't think I remember how I spelled it. [00:29:32] Speaker 3: Okay, but it was Zira? Yeah. So you said that at one point you had the dagger up and Isaac was pushing on it behind your hand? [00:29:46] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:29:47] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:29:47] Speaker 3: Why not just kill her then? [00:29:49] Kiara McCulley: I couldn't, I couldn't bring myself to do it at that point. [00:29:53] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:29:55] Speaker 3: What do you recall about what Isaac was telling you, uh, throughout the night? [00:30:04] Kiara McCulley: Um, could I get some water? Yes. [00:30:07] Speaker ?: All right. [00:30:09] Speaker 1: Just a second. [00:30:11] Kiara McCulley: Thank you. Um, he was telling me a lot of, like, one that I remember him telling me is dull cuts like butter. That is something I remember him telling me because the dagger wasn't very sharp. [00:30:44] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:30:45] Kiara McCulley: I appreciate it. Um, I'll wait. Okay. [00:31:04] Speaker 3: What, if any, messages do you recall as it relates to ghosts and the, and murdering Grace from that evening? [00:31:12] Kiara McCulley: He mentioned someplace called The Barn. Um, said, well, if you don't do it now, we'll do it there. And I didn't know, I don't know what exactly he was talking about. [00:31:24] Speaker 3: Had you ever been to a, the barn with him? No. Did you have, uh, did you have, uh, have a butterfly knife with you that night? [00:31:37] Kiara McCulley: Not that night, no. [00:31:38] Speaker 3: What do you mean by that? [00:31:39] Kiara McCulley: I had one at, at one point, but I lost it. [00:31:43] Speaker 3: What, when did you lose it? [00:31:45] Kiara McCulley: Um, about a week prior. [00:31:51] Speaker 3: Let's talk about the sword for a moment, okay? Um, what do you recall about the sword? [00:31:59] Kiara McCulley: It was extremely sharp. And, it was a beautiful sword. If you look at it in the, in the view of art, that's how I like to view it, it was art. That. [00:32:15] Speaker 3: During the night, um, as you and Isaac are, are messaging, where was the sword? [00:32:21] Kiara McCulley: It was on the floor next to the, next to the door, just to the right of the door. [00:32:26] Speaker 3: Okay, um, so I guess I should ask you this, when you, when you came in from, uh, being at the park, you stated that you had some armor and the sword with you, right? Yes. Okay, so what did you do with the sword when you walked into the garage, uh, after being at the park? [00:32:40] Kiara McCulley: I took it off my belt and set it down. I set it right next to me, which was right to the left of the door. Okay. Right next to, um, a bunch of cubbies. [00:32:52] Speaker 3: Okay. And what did you do with your armor? [00:32:56] Kiara McCulley: I just took it off and set it there. [00:32:58] Speaker 3: Do you recall what you were wearing, uh, other than the armor? [00:33:01] Kiara McCulley: Yeah, it was a blue sweater and, uh, pleather pants. [00:33:05] Speaker 3: Pleather, like fake leather? Yes. [00:33:10] Speaker ?: All right. [00:33:11] Speaker 3: So, throughout the night, as you and Isaac are messaging, did the sword stay in that same spot where you had put it down when you'd come in from the park? Yes. [00:33:19] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:33:20] Speaker 3: Where was the dagger, um, throughout the night? [00:33:23] Kiara McCulley: Uh, multiple different places. At one point he was holding onto it. At one point it was next to me on the floor. And then there were a couple points where it was on our hands and we're trying to figure out what to do. [00:33:39] Speaker 3: How much sleep did you get that night? None. Why? [00:33:45] Kiara McCulley: When I, at the time when I fell asleep angry, Isaac always told me that I was grumpy, he didn't like how I would act, so I wouldn't sleep when I was angry. And I was awake for a very long time. [00:33:59] Speaker 3: I want to go now to the mid-morning hours, okay? Did you and Isaac make a plan, um, referred to as Operation Fake Kick-Out? [00:34:12] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. [00:34:12] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:34:13] Speaker 3: Can you tell us about that? [00:34:14] Kiara McCulley: I was pretending to kick Isaac out so I could get Grace to leave, because I was trying to back out. [00:34:20] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:34:22] Kiara McCulley: Like. [00:34:26] Speaker 3: And, do you recall the final messages Isaac sent to you before everything happened? [00:34:35] Kiara McCulley: Not completely, but I do remember him saying that she had admitted to doing something to him. [00:34:42] Speaker 3: What did you take him saying she admitted to doing something? What did you think that was referring to? [00:34:47] Kiara McCulley: That was referring to the rape. That's what I was, thought it was meaning. [00:34:54] Speaker 3: How'd that make you feel to hear Isaac, or to see Isaac's message that Grace had admitted it to him? [00:35:02] Kiara McCulley: I got, I was hurt, I was angry, I had so many mixed emotions. It's like, to the point I actually cried a little bit. [00:35:14] Speaker 3: Once Isaac sent you that message, or those final messages, what happened next? [00:35:21] Kiara McCulley: I, they, we were getting up and like, trying to just act like everything was normal for a [00:35:31] Speaker 3: moment, where was Grace at this point? [00:35:34] Kiara McCulley: She was sitting next to Isaac at the foot of the bed. [00:35:36] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:35:36] Speaker 3: Where were you? [00:35:37] Kiara McCulley: I was standing in front of them. [00:35:39] Speaker 3: When you say standing in front of them, what would have been, say, to your back? [00:35:42] Kiara McCulley: The door, the front door. [00:35:44] Speaker 3: What happened next? [00:35:47] Kiara McCulley: Isaac handed me the sword. [00:35:48] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:35:50] Speaker 3: What did you take that to mean? [00:35:52] Kiara McCulley: I mean, it's time to do it, and I had no choice. [00:35:57] Speaker 3: At that point, how were you feeling emotionally? [00:36:00] Kiara McCulley: Overwhelmed. [00:36:02] Speaker 3: What happened next? [00:36:05] Kiara McCulley: He told me, he told me he would hurt my mom if I didn't do it, because I was standing there like, what the f*** are you trying to make me do? Then what happened? Then Grace started laughing at me, like it was some big joke. How'd that make you feel? It brought all of my anger out in one spot. What happened next? I just, I closed my eyes and swung the sword. When you made that first swing, where was Isaac? He was right next to her, on her, her right. [00:36:42] Speaker 3: When you swung the first time, what did Isaac do? [00:36:47] Kiara McCulley: And he got up and he started saying, come on, finish it, finish it, finish it. And then he ended up leaving for a little bit, and I, I, I did. I, I finished the job. As he would reference it. And then he came back, told me, go take a shower. Let me stop you there. [00:37:10] Speaker ?: Sorry. [00:37:10] Speaker 3: While you were, um, murdering Grace, were you saying anything to Grace that you recall? [00:37:17] Kiara McCulley: Just say, I'm sorry. I just kept telling her, please just apologize and I'll let you go. [00:37:27] Speaker 3: Where, in, on the bed or in the room, did Grace die? She was on the bed. You stated that Isaac then came back? Yes. Where were you in the garage when Isaac came back? [00:37:40] Kiara McCulley: I was standing next to the door. [00:37:43] Speaker 3: And where was the sword? [00:37:44] Kiara McCulley: It was on the bed at the time. [00:37:48] Speaker 3: What, if anything, did Isaac say when he came back? [00:37:51] Kiara McCulley: He told me to go take a shower. [00:37:55] Speaker 3: Did you? Yes. All right. How long do you think it took you to shower? About 15 minutes. When you came back, or when you, after you left the shower, what did you do? [00:38:08] Kiara McCulley: I got dressed, grabbed a couple towels, and started heading towards the garage. So Isaac had told me that he was going to clean it up. [00:38:17] Speaker 3: What was your plan for once you got to the garage? [00:38:20] Kiara McCulley: I was just going to help give him a hand. [00:38:23] Speaker 3: When you got to the garage, what did you observe? [00:38:25] Kiara McCulley: I saw her body on the floor, the sword on the table, and I freaked out. [00:38:32] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:38:32] Speaker 3: What did you do? [00:38:33] Kiara McCulley: I locked the door, ran back into the house and the main house, and realized what had just happened. [00:38:45] Speaker 3: When you were exiting the garage and headed into the main house, did you see anyone? I heard the cops. Was Isaac present at any point from when you, or what, let me ask you this, when was the last time you saw Isaac? [00:39:00] Kiara McCulley: When he came to tell me to take a shower. [00:39:06] Speaker 3: When you went to go, when you went back to the garage, where was Grace? She was on the floor. Is that where you had left her? [00:39:13] Kiara McCulley: She was on the bed when I left. [00:39:24] Speaker 3: Do you remember any injuries to your hand, or hands? [00:39:27] Kiara McCulley: I got a couple cuts on my hands from the sword. [00:39:36] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:39:46] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:39:48] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:40:06] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:40:11] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:40:12] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:40:14] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:40:16] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:40:49] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:40:53] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:40:56] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:41:01] Kiara McCulley: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:41:03] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:41:04] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:41:06] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:41:53] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:41:56] Kiara McCulley: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:07] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:10] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:14] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:17] Kiara McCulley: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:18] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:23] Kiara McCulley: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:24] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:37] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:38] Speaker 1: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:44] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:45] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:48] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:53] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:54] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:42:55] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:15] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:16] Kiara McCulley: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:25] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:26] Kiara McCulley: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:28] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:29] Kiara McCulley: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:32] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:33] Kiara McCulley: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:36] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:37] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:43:44] Kiara McCulley: I don't remember exactly what I said. [00:43:47] Speaker 3: Did you tell Sergeant B. Hill that it happened from dropping a knife a day prior? [00:43:51] Kiara McCulley: I don't believe I don't think so. [00:44:14] Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Chiara, were you fully honest with Detective V. Hill during your police interview? [00:44:35] Kiara McCulley: No. [00:44:36] Speaker 3: What do you mean by that? [00:44:39] Kiara McCulley: I lied about what I thought happened. So I said I don't remember but I remembered a lot more than I wanted to. [00:44:49] Speaker 3: Why'd you lie? [00:44:51] Kiara McCulley: I was scared. [00:45:02] Speaker 3: Talking about the messages between you and Isaac, there are times that you ask him to commit the murder of Grace. Do you recall saying that? [00:45:11] Kiara McCulley: I remember telling him to do something, anything. Whether it was kill her or get her the f*** out. Sorry. I didn't care if it was to get rid of her, just get her to leave somehow or kill her, get it over with. Just do something. Get her out of my space. [00:45:30] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:45:31] Speaker 3: What did you think would happen for you as it relates to ghost if you had killed Grace? [00:45:39] Kiara McCulley: I would have ranked up and been officially a part of it. Can we approach her? [00:45:46] Speaker 1: I would. [00:45:47] Kiara McCulley: Can we approach her? [00:45:48] Speaker ?: I would. Can we approach her? I would. Can we approach her? I would. Can we approach her? I would. Thank you. Thank you. [00:46:55] Speaker 3: I guess that, Kiara, what did you think would happen as it relates to you and Ghost if and when you murdered Grace? [00:47:10] Kiara McCulley: I believe that would rank up in Ghost and that I would get paid as well. Is there an amount of money that you thought you would get paid? You didn't tell me the exact amount. [00:47:40] Speaker 3: You've had two other interviews. Do you recall those? One with another one here at the courthouse with Detective Vigil? Yes. And then another one with some of Isaac's attorneys? Yes. And were you fully honest in those interviews? [00:48:05] Kiara McCulley: Not fully. [00:48:07] Speaker 3: What do you mean by that? [00:48:09] Kiara McCulley: I had, I was scared to say that, I said that Isaac had swung first, but in reality he just handed me the sword. [00:48:22] Speaker 3: So Isaac Apodaca, did Isaac Apodaca take any swings using the sword at Grace's body? [00:48:29] Kiara McCulley: As far as I'm aware, no. [00:48:31] Speaker 3: You should have clarified, in your presence. [00:48:33] Kiara McCulley: In my presence, no. [00:48:47] Speaker 3: A moment, Your Honor. [00:48:48] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:48:49] Speaker ?: A moment, Your Honor. Yes. [00:48:49] Speaker 1: A moment, Your Honor. [00:49:19] Speaker 3: Kara, have you been truthful today about your role in the murder of Grace Jennings? [00:49:26] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:49:27] Speaker 3: Pass the witness. Pass the witness.