Face the Nation: Gonzales, Becker, Gottlieb

[0:00] Good morning. [0:01] Good morning. [0:02] Thanks, Margaret, for having me on. [0:03] Let's talk about immigration. [0:05] We've spoken before. [0:06] You have this border district. [0:07] You know a lot of Border Patrol agents personally, your constituents. [0:11] So Friday, Homeland Security funding is going to expire. [0:14] And there's this standoff in the Senate in particular. [0:17] Democrats are demanding a number of reforms, and I want to lay them out here. [0:21] And this is sort of the cost of their vote. [0:24] Democrats want to require a judicial warrant, not just an administrative one to enter private [0:28] property. [0:29] They want federal law enforcement agents to show ID, wear body cameras, standard uniforms, [0:34] no masks, protect sensitive locations like schools and churches, stop racial profiling, [0:39] coordinate with local jurisdictions to prosecute crimes. [0:42] Are you on board with any of these demands? [0:46] Do you see a deal? [0:47] I think we need to work through it. [0:49] There's some things that make sense. [0:50] There's a lot of things that don't. [0:52] Just a few days ago, this was a bipartisan vote, and all of a sudden now the Democrats are trying [0:57] to hold the country hostage. [0:58] I'll tell you what's not going to be in there. [1:00] Amnesty for illegal aliens. [1:01] I'll tell you what's not going to be there. [1:03] Stripping away protections for law enforcement officers that are trying to protect themselves. [1:08] If rioters get to wear masks, then law enforcement gets to wear masks as well. [1:12] What can be in there? [1:14] I think the body cameras make a lot of sense. [1:15] I was really encouraged to see Secretary Noem and Tom Holman execute that. [1:19] I think those are good parts of it. [1:21] And another thing that works, going back to my district, another thing that works is communication. [1:25] I think it would be very key if there were communication liaisons in all the communities [1:30] that ICE has, meaning not changing policy, just sharing communication from the community, [1:35] let's say the city manager, let's say city council, community leaders up to the administration [1:39] and back down. [1:40] We saw the Biden administration do this with ranch liaisons when the ranchers were really [1:44] upset. [1:45] And once again, that helped. [1:46] These are a couple things that I think could make it, could be the glue that gets this package [1:51] going. [1:52] If the administration will go along with that coordination with local officials. [1:55] Yeah, absolutely. [1:56] The liaison piece makes a lot of sense to me. [1:58] I mean, that one, once again, ICE is not going to stop going to these communities. [2:03] It would be helpful if we had many Tom Holmans all throughout the country basically saying, [2:08] this is what we're doing, not leaving things to what ifs and letting other people fill that [2:12] void, but an actual sharing up and down the chain of command, if you will. [2:15] Let me ask you about the warrants here. [2:18] The Trump administration has changed how to use warrants and arrests. [2:21] They permit warrantless arrests as well. [2:23] This wasn't done even during the first Trump administration. [2:27] Senator Jeffries was on another network this morning and said judicial warrants should absolutely [2:31] be required before ICE agents can storm private property. [2:35] It should not be controversial, this demand. [2:38] They just want adherence to Fourth Amendment constitutional protections. [2:43] As a conservative, shouldn't a judge be consulted? [2:48] Of course I believe in the Fourth Amendment. [2:49] But what worries me is a judge should not hold up everything. [2:52] We're seeing judges all over the country go beyond their level of authority. [2:57] And so if a law enforcement officer, let's just say for example, sees a crime that's [3:01] being committed or has due cause, then why can't they go in there? [3:06] These administrative warrants, they aren't new. [3:08] All of a sudden the left is- There's new interpretation of them. [3:11] And the ICE director has disclosed that. [3:13] Well, they're complaining about the use of them. [3:15] But if you're an ICE agent and you don't have cooperation from local or local officials, [3:20] how are you supposed to get that criminal that's in somebody's community? [3:23] How are you supposed to remove them? [3:24] That's what worries me. [3:25] If we allow judges to be the roadblock, it doesn't keep our community safe. [3:31] So that's a hard line for you in terms of you would never get on board with requiring [3:37] that a judicial warrant be required to enter private property? [3:41] Administrative warrants work. [3:43] I want to give law enforcement every tool they need to go out and apprehend these convicted [3:49] criminals that are loose in our community. [3:51] To me, that makes a lot of sense. [3:52] Why you would want to shackle your own law enforcement from keeping our community safe makes no sense [3:56] to me. [3:57] Well, the Fourth Amendment protects all people regardless of citizenship or national origin [4:01] from unreasonable search and seizure. [4:03] So some of those collateral arrests are warrantless. [4:06] But that's the politics of this funding bill. [4:10] I'll put the policy aside for a second because I want to ask you about the cross-examination [4:14] you're going to have the opportunity to make this week because you have the head of ICE, [4:19] CBP, and another agency come before the Homeland Security Committee. [4:23] The Republican chair said he has questions about training of immigration agents and their [4:27] use of force. [4:28] Are you comfortable with what you saw happen in Minneapolis? [4:31] I mean, are Republicans going to approach this in a partisan way or hold them to account? [4:36] What happened in Minneapolis nobody in this country should want. [4:39] We should all strive not to be Minneapolis. [4:42] We don't want to see local communities not work with federal government, and we don't [4:46] want to see— [4:47] The leaders of the agencies are the ones you're going to be questioning, though. [4:49] Of course. [4:50] And I want to know, hey, what are you doing to work with others within the community so [4:54] that way it's not just the ICE going in alone? [4:56] It shouldn't be that way. [4:57] And this is what we're seeing. [4:59] Secretary Noem has been very clear on trying to build these relationships out. [5:03] And Tom Holman is delivering on this by going in there. [5:06] Eighty counties are now all of a sudden working with ICE, allowing us in their jails. [5:09] That was a choice by the administration to start working with locals. [5:12] That works. [5:13] That was a change. [5:14] They've been trying to do this. [5:16] The problem is you've got so many local municipalities that don't want to work together. [5:22] And when that happens, your city burns. [5:24] We don't want Los Angeles. [5:25] We shouldn't want Minneapolis. [5:27] People can protest. [5:28] People can be able to say, hey, we won't agree with certain policy, but there needs to [5:32] be more collaboration at the local, state, and federal level. [5:35] Well, we're going to have to take a break here, but I have more questions for you on [5:38] the other side of it. [5:39] So if you would stay with us, we'll be right back with more Face the Nation. [5:47] As Americans struggle with the heated debate about immigration enforcement tactics and [5:51] public safety here at home, some of the U.S. athletes competing in the Winter Olympics [5:55] in Milan have acknowledged the complicated feelings they're navigating as they represent [6:01] their country on the biggest stage in global sports. [6:04] It brings up mixed emotions to represent the U.S. right now, I think. [6:08] It's a little hard. [6:10] There's obviously a lot going on that I'm not the biggest fan of, and I think a lot of [6:15] people aren't. [6:16] Just because I'm wearing the flag doesn't mean I represent everything that's going on in [6:18] the U.S. [6:19] I love the U.S. and I think I would never want to represent a different country in the Olympics. [6:26] With that being said, you know, a lot of times athletes are hesitant to talk about political [6:31] views and how we feel about things. [6:36] I feel heartbroken about what's happened in the United States. [6:39] I think that as a country, we need to focus on respecting everybody's rights and making [6:45] sure that we're treating our citizens as well as anybody with love and respect. [6:50] And I hope that when people look at athletes competing in the Olympics, they realize that [6:54] that's the America that we're trying to represent. [6:57] Those comments have drawn criticism from some congressional Republicans and Trump administration [7:02] officials. [7:03] We'll be back in a moment. [7:04] Welcome back to Face the Nation. [7:13] We return now to our conversation with Republican Congressman Tony Gonzalez of Texas. [7:19] On the Homeland Security front, we see in our CBS polling that the credibility of the president's [7:24] deportation policy is in question. [7:27] You can see it right there. [7:29] A lot of the American public just doesn't support the methods used for mass deportation, even [7:34] though they like the idea of mass deportation. [7:37] In the past, you've questioned whether the administration was really focusing on the worst [7:40] of the worst. [7:41] You said, don't deport abuelita. [7:43] Do you think that they are actually hearing the concern that people like you have raised? [7:49] And do you think there's any improvement? [7:51] Very early on, I mentioned, hey, if we go down this route as a party, we're not going [7:54] to be successful. [7:55] And we're seeing some of that with some of these special elections that are happening. [7:58] I am encouraged. [7:59] I've seen the administration highlight more unconvicted criminal aliens. [8:03] I'm seeing Secretary Noem and Tom Homan. [8:05] In their messaging or in their arrests? [8:07] In their arrests and in their focus of going into the jails. [8:09] If you go into a jail and you go cell by cell, that makes a lot more sense to American [8:14] people than going house by house, going, are you American citizen or not? [8:18] And it's safer. [8:19] It's safer for the agents as well. [8:20] So I think if we go down that route, we as a Republican Party will be successful. [8:25] The other part of it, too, is to talk about legal immigration. [8:28] The president has mentioned this many times. [8:30] Last week, there was 65,000 work visas that he signed off on, where he goes, you're not [8:36] invited to this country if you come in illegally. [8:38] But if you're here legal, we encourage you to come, you know, do it the right way. [8:42] Well, I want to talk about that again in a moment, but just to pick up on what you mentioned [8:46] in your home state. [8:48] You saw this stunning win by Democrat Taylor Remet in what had been a reliably red district. [8:54] And in fact, one of 26 state house seats that have flipped from Republican to Democrat [8:59] nationally since President Trump took office. [9:02] This wasn't a one-off, in other words. [9:05] And in the Texas press, there's a lot of focus on the Latino voters as having really swung [9:11] back or swung to the Democratic Party. [9:15] Why? [9:16] What's happening? [9:17] People are anxious. [9:18] Is it the deportation policy? [9:20] It's some of what's being portrayed. [9:22] And one of the things I think is very effective for the administration is for them to highlight [9:26] the people that they're deporting. [9:29] Put them on the website. [9:30] Show them and go, these are the folks that we're coming after. [9:33] I would argue the Hispanic vote is what gave us the Republicans, the House, the Senate, [9:38] and the White House. [9:39] And if we want to keep that long term, we do have to make a shift, not necessarily in policy, [9:44] but in communication. [9:45] I mentioned this earlier, a communication liaison of someone saying, hey, this is what we're [9:49] doing, working with others. [9:51] So it's not just a surprise. [9:52] Prime example, San Antonio. [9:53] We have a new ICE facility built in San Antonio. [9:55] A lot of people are anxious. [9:56] They don't know what's happening. [9:58] This is $125 million that's coming to the community, have 1,200 jobs. [10:03] And after it gets established, there'll be another $125 million with 325 good paying jobs [10:09] for our local community. [10:10] But respectfully, in the past, you have said this isn't just a PR problem. [10:13] You actually looked at the numbers and found that it was not the worst of the worst in those [10:18] detention facilities. [10:19] Right. [10:20] It's not a PR problem. [10:21] It has to be. [10:22] It is a policy. [10:23] It has to be a policy. [10:24] But what I'm seeing is they are going after the worst of the worst. [10:27] They're talking about we're going after the worst of the worst. [10:30] The part I think we can improve on is communicating with the local municipalities. [10:35] Those that don't have an idea and be able to go, no, you have a seat at the table. [10:39] We want you to have a seat at the table. [10:41] Even if it's different, even if it's a different conversation or a different ideology, you should [10:45] have a seat at the table. [10:46] So that way your citizens know what's happening in your community. [10:49] So Trump was not the first president of the United States to detain children. [10:54] Sure. [10:55] You have this facility, though, in your district, Dilley, and that is for family detentions. [11:00] That's where little five-year-old Liam Ramos from Minnesota was held before a judge, that's [11:05] the picture of him there, ordered him released. [11:08] He was ordered released because his family is a pending asylum claim, a legal process. [11:14] He had entered with U.S. government permission through a process that the Biden administration [11:19] had deemed legal. [11:20] The current administration does not, the CBP-1 app. [11:24] Liam's father gave an interview to Telemundo, and you read the transcript. [11:28] He's talking about this five-year-old. [11:30] He's not okay. [11:31] He's waking up at night crying. [11:33] He's worried he's going to be taken again. [11:36] It's psychological trauma, according to the father. [11:39] And the administration is still trying to deport him. [11:42] Do you understand why they are so focused on this five-year-old and his dad if they did [11:48] come in through the front door with U.S. government permission? [11:50] Well, the front door was via an app that Biden knew exactly what he was doing, and he created [11:55] this huge mess that now President Trump is there to clean up. [11:59] But he came in the front door. [12:00] He wasn't sticking across the border. [12:01] Threw an app. [12:02] Threw an app that wasn't vetted. [12:03] And the bottom line is that he's likely they're not going to qualify for asylum. [12:07] So what do you do with all the people that go through the process and do not qualify [12:10] for asylum? [12:11] You deport them. [12:12] I understand the five-year-old, and it breaks my heart. [12:16] I have a five-year-old at home. [12:17] I also think, what about that five-year-old U.S. citizen? [12:20] You feel comfortable defending that? [12:22] I feel comfortable we have to have a nation of laws. [12:25] If we don't have a nation of laws— [12:26] They were following the law. [12:27] I don't want to say this. [12:28] That is— [12:29] That's the rub. [12:30] That a new administration deemed the last administration's regulation not to be legal. [12:35] We can be compassionate, and we can also enforce our laws. [12:40] And I think that's the secret sauce that the administration and Congress must do. [12:44] Let's enforce our laws, but let's do it in a humane way. [12:47] The facility in Dilley, I've visited there many times. [12:50] I've visited dozens of different facilities. [12:52] It is a nice facility. [12:54] It's a detention facility for people that are in the country illegally that are about to [12:57] be deported. [12:58] But it is a nice facility, nicer than some elementary schools here in San Antonio. [13:02] Advocates have said otherwise. [13:03] But quickly, before I let you go, a number of Republican lawmakers have objected to the video [13:08] that the president and his staff posted to his social media account, the one of President [13:13] Obama and the former first lady. [13:14] Do you think he needs to apologize for it? [13:16] There's—it's up to the president. [13:18] There's no room in this country for racism, anti-Semitism, socialism. [13:22] All the isms need to go. [13:23] But what I— [13:24] And you think it was that? [13:25] At the end, absolutely. [13:26] I mean, I think it was very—it was very upsetting to a lot of people. [13:30] What the part of the—no one's talking about that video—is about election integrity. [13:33] And so the bulk of it was on election integrity. [13:35] Yes. [13:36] Which is a very important topic. [13:38] What I suspect is going to happen is the White House is going to, in the coming days, issue [13:41] a memo on their policy for this upcoming election. [13:46] And I suspect the director of national intelligence is going to be at the center part of building [13:51] that out and making sure our midterm elections are safe and secure. [13:55] And I know the president claimed the video was credible, also claimed he had watched it, [13:59] but then not seeing that part of it with the racism— [14:01] It was at the very end. [14:02] It was at the very end for one second. [14:03] It was really weird. [14:04] The president of the United States and his staff, wouldn't you expect that they actually [14:09] look at what they do before they do it? [14:11] The president of the United States should not be worrying about all the people that are [14:13] upset with him. [14:14] If he's doing that, he's not keeping our country safe. [14:15] But why— [14:16] I did appreciate them taking it down. [14:18] I did appreciate him saying, hey, look, you know, that shouldn't have been on there, [14:21] but— [14:22] Should the staffer who allegedly did it be fired, should there be consequences for something [14:25] like that? [14:26] The president— [14:27] And do you think that video is actually credible? [14:28] The president can make that decision. [14:29] We just—look, we just had Jeffrey—you know, Hakeem Jeffries get up there and say the F-word [14:33] to the president. [14:34] I mean, the direction our politics is going is not the right way. [14:38] We need to pull it back and we need to go, wait a second here. [14:40] How do we make sure we're safe? [14:41] How do we make sure our economy is thriving? [14:43] How do we make sure Americans are better off today than they were yesterday? [14:47] All right. [14:48] Congressman Gonzalez, thank you for your time, and we'll have David Becker ahead. [14:51] We'll talk about that video in a moment. [14:57] We're joined now by David Becker. [14:59] He is the executive director of the Center for Election Innovation and Research and a [15:03] CBS News election law contributor. [15:06] Always good to have you here, David. [15:07] Great to be back with you, Margaret. [15:09] I want to pick up on a few things that have come up in the program. [15:12] Senator Warner voiced what some Democrats are concerned about, arguing that President Trump [15:18] is laying the groundwork to undermine the upcoming election or interfere in it in some way. [15:24] And in fact, during the program, the president is tweeting about American elections being [15:29] rigged, stolen, and a laughingstock all around the world. [15:36] What do you think of these statements here? [15:39] Are both parties undermining confidence in our election? [15:43] What do election officials that you speak to feel and think right now? [15:47] Yeah. [15:48] It's very hard to predict where this is going, but we can look at what's happened already. [15:52] The president has signed an unprecedented executive order regarding elections trying [15:56] to dictate policy to the states. [15:58] That's now been enjoined, blocked, by three different federal courts. [16:02] His Department of Justice is seeking highly sensitive data on hundreds of millions of American [16:07] voters, is suing 24 states and D.C. [16:11] Two federal courts just in the past few weeks have blocked that. [16:14] The remainder are still to be heard. [16:17] The cybersecurity apparatus that Senator Warner talked about that had been built up under the [16:21] first Trump administration to assist election officials has been dismantled. [16:26] So when I talk to election officials, they're very concerned about this. [16:29] I think it's safe to say this is unprecedented. [16:30] We have never seen a president try to exert executive authority over elections in the states like [16:36] we have. [16:37] And of course, this is contrary to the Constitution, which specifically grants states the authority [16:43] to run elections under Article 1, Section 4, the Elections Clause. [16:47] Congress can also act. [16:48] And if Congress does, of course, those laws will be followed. [16:51] But both parties have tried to pass sweeping bills in the last five or six years and have [16:54] failed. [16:55] So the Constitution, as you just point out, states, it is the states who are going to run [17:02] these elections. [17:03] But the president, I want to play what he said so the public hears it. [17:07] He has at least three times in the past week said he wants the Republican Party to nationalize [17:11] voting and take over voting procedures in 15 states. [17:15] Take a listen. [17:17] Take a look at Detroit. [17:18] Take a look at Pennsylvania. [17:26] Horrible corruption on elections. [17:28] And the federal government should not allow that. [17:30] The federal government should get involved. [17:33] These are agents of the federal government to count the votes. [17:37] If they can't count the votes legally and honestly, then somebody else should take over. [17:43] So what would prevent the president from doing something you just told us is unconstitutional? [17:49] Well, the president might try to act, and that's why it's so hard to predict exactly what's [17:54] going to happen. [17:55] But the courts have been very firm on holding the limits of executive power under the Constitution. [18:01] There was just a court decision a couple of days ago from the state of Oregon, a district [18:04] court there, that denied DOJ access to this highly sensitive voter data that they were seeking [18:10] from Oregon. [18:11] And specifically said, again, that the Constitution is clear. [18:14] The founders carved out elections specially to say the federal government can only act [18:19] if Congress acts. [18:20] The states have the authority. [18:22] And they expressly excluded the executive from that at all. [18:26] They were very concerned about the excesses of an executive, a president who would seek [18:30] to consolidate more power than the Constitution granted by seizing the mechanisms of elections. [18:36] So two other things I want to run through with you. [18:40] The White House took down that video that we were just discussing with Congressman Gonzalez. [18:44] The focus has been on the racist portion of it, which was widely condemned. [18:48] The video leading up to it that Congressman Gonzalez defended was about election software and security. [18:57] In that, when you listen to it, you hear descriptions of problems with technology and things that [19:04] the speaker says were anomalies. [19:06] Like in 2025, key states stopped counting at a certain time. [19:10] Can you fact check some of this for us? [19:14] This is a very common methodology for those that are spreading lies about the elections [19:20] to find, just throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. [19:23] And the rest of that video, in addition to the ending, was also troubling because it was [19:27] a lot of disinformation, just blatantly false. [19:30] We have paper ballots in the United States, 98% of all Americans vote on paper ballots. [19:34] The only exclusion is the state of Louisiana, which is moving to paper ballots. [19:39] That means those paper ballots can be checked against whatever the machines tally, and they [19:42] are checked. [19:43] Famously in Georgia, those paper ballots in 2020 were counted three times, three different [19:49] ways, once entirely by hand. [19:51] Over five million ballots counted by hand in five days with observation from both campaigns [19:57] and observers. [19:58] There's no way to get around the fact that 2020 was the most scrutinized election in American [20:02] history. [20:03] And every time when courts reviewed it, when people who lied about the election were taken [20:07] to court, the work of election officials withstood that scrutiny. [20:12] It's really remarkable. [20:14] Not only are our elections not rigged, they're as transparent and verifiable and as secure [20:18] as they've ever been. [20:19] No matter whether you like the outcome or not, and we're seeing disinformation being spread, [20:24] in this case by the president of the United States, targeted at his own supporters, at [20:28] others who might not like the outcome of elections. [20:30] And unfortunately, some are believing it. [20:32] Well, it's unusual because the president won the election and Republicans won the last [20:36] election. [20:37] So when he is saying now that suddenly the system is broken, it seemed to work when it elected [20:44] him, but it didn't work when he lost in 2020. [20:50] That is what is contradictory in sort of just the common sense version. [20:54] That's exactly right. [20:55] But on the facts of it, you're saying this has actually been verified time and time again. [21:01] With those ballots you just talked about from Fulton County, we have body camera footage [21:04] of these FBI agents going and taking the ballots. [21:08] Why would the FBI now be taking the ballots? [21:11] Why was the director of national intelligence there and what would they do with these ballots? [21:14] This is a great question and it still has not been answered. [21:18] First of all, there was no crime committed in 2020. [21:20] Those ballots have been counted and reviewed so many times. [21:23] We know exactly what happened in Georgia in 2020. [21:26] Joe Biden won that state by a relatively narrow margin of 11,779 votes. [21:31] In 2024, Donald Trump won that state. [21:34] Democrats didn't somehow have the magical ability while out of the White House to steal an election [21:38] in 2020 and then forget to use that power in 2024 when they had the White House. [21:44] So we know exactly what happened. [21:46] If there was a true, honest review of those ballots, it'll confirm exactly what the result [21:50] was just as when the cyber ninjas reviewed the Maricopa County ballots in Arizona, they [21:55] found the same exact outcome. [21:57] As for the director of national intelligence being in Fulton County, there is no viable [22:02] reason to have a high-level political appointee during the execution of a search warrant. [22:08] That search warrant has many defects as the body cam footage showed. [22:11] There was a defect in the address when they first showed up. [22:14] They had to go back and get a corrected search warrant. [22:17] And there's also this issue of the statute of limitations. [22:23] There's a five-year statute of limitations under federal law for any of the crimes that [22:27] they mentioned in the warrant. [22:28] There were two specific statutes. [22:30] That five-year statute has expired by any measure. [22:33] And so I'm not sure why a magistrate signed off on it. [22:35] We're not sure why the DNI was in Fulton County inside a local election warehouse. [22:40] We've heard shifting explanations first. [22:42] The deputy attorney general said she happened to be in Atlanta. [22:45] I don't know that that's particularly credible. [22:47] And then we heard the president directed her, and then attorney general Bondi directed her. [22:50] We have no idea what actually happened. [22:52] Well, we checked, and at least nine top Trump administration officials by CBS criteria raised [22:56] doubt about the validity or integrity of the 2020 election. [22:59] That count does not include the president of the United States himself. [23:02] David Becker, thank you. [23:04] Thank you, Margaret. [23:05] We'll be back in a moment. [23:10] We turn now to former FDA commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb. [23:12] He is also on the board of Pfizer and UnitedHealthcare. [23:16] Dr. Gottlieb. [23:17] Welcome back. [23:18] Thank you. [23:19] You have a history of making accurate predictions that are also terrifying on this program. [23:25] And it was around this time last year that you said you were very concerned about the [23:28] measles outbreak and that it would spread. [23:31] You're right. [23:32] In South Carolina, about 900 reported cases, largest outbreak since measles was declared [23:37] eliminated. [23:38] Out in Disneyland in California, two cases here in D.C., cases detected. [23:46] Should we avoid mass gatherings? [23:48] How concerned should we be? [23:49] Look, I don't think we should be worried about mass gatherings at this point. [23:55] I think that this is going to get worse, unfortunately, before it resolves. [23:58] Last year, we had 2,000 cases this year. [24:00] So far, we have 750 cases reported. [24:02] It's going to be a lot harder by the end of the year. [24:04] I think this is going to be a long cycle. [24:06] Right now, if you look at the people who are getting infected with measles, the majority [24:09] of people are between the ages of 5 and 17. [24:12] They're not toddlers. [24:13] And we're seeing vaccination rates decline among toddlers, really, as part of a broader [24:18] movement away from pediatric vaccines in this country. [24:21] As those toddlers age into school-age settings, the scope of the measles outbreaks are going [24:25] to continue to escalate in this country. [24:27] If you think back to the early 1990s, 1991, there were about 25,000 cases of measles. [24:33] In 1992, we had about 10,000. [24:36] Vaccination rates had declined in the 1990s. [24:37] Only about 88 percent of Americans' children were vaccinated for measles, mumps, and rubella. [24:43] Right now, it's about 90 percent. [24:44] But in some of the states where you're seeing these outbreaks, the rate is as low as 81 percent [24:47] in Alaska, 88 percent in a number of states that are having outbreaks right now. [24:51] So we're starting to get down to lower levels. [24:53] And I think that's going to continue to decline. [24:55] And again, as these children who aren't getting vaccinated age into school-age settings, they're [25:00] going to start spreading broader and larger outbreaks. [25:03] So I think this is a long cycle, especially now that this has gotten embedded in political [25:07] psyche in this country. [25:09] I think this is a generational change. [25:11] Yeah. [25:12] Well, and those percentages you point out are important because we're below herd immunity. [25:16] And as I understand it, it's not just the United States. [25:20] Britain, Canada, Spain, a number of European and Central Asian countries lost their measles [25:25] elimination status. [25:26] This is a global anti-vaccine movement, it would seem. [25:32] Yeah. [25:33] Look, I think that that's right. [25:34] And I think a lot of this comes out of the COVID pandemic, where people felt compelled [25:36] to take vaccines that they had hesitations around through state action. [25:40] I thought that was a mistake at the time. [25:42] I still think it was a mistake. [25:43] We talked about in this show that would breed an anti-vaccine backlash. [25:47] And I think that's what we're seeing. [25:48] And it's given voice to a lot of people who are anti-vaxxed from the outset, who are now [25:52] gaining political resonance and starting to drive a lot of the policy agenda, including at the [25:56] Department of Health and Human Services. [25:57] So, the scope of these is going to continue to grow. [26:00] It's not just MMR. [26:01] It's diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis as well. [26:05] We're seeing pertussis outbreaks in this country. [26:07] Those are going to continue to grow. [26:08] So, we're in a long cycle right now. [26:10] And I think it's important that we continue to educate people about the importance of these [26:13] vaccines, especially the MMR vaccines. [26:15] Measles is very contagious. [26:17] And, as you said, the herd immunity rate is about 95 percent vaccination in a community. [26:22] In certain pockets of this country, we're well below that. [26:24] You look at some states, there's pockets of communities where their vaccination rate is [26:29] about 70 percent. [26:30] And so, that's where you're seeing the outbreaks, particularly in South Carolina, Texas. [26:34] Florida has an outbreak. [26:35] Right now, there's been big outbreaks in Utah and Arizona as well. [26:38] Arizona had 250 cases. [26:40] Utah, about the same. [26:41] There was a hearing this week with Dr. Jay Bhattacharya. [26:46] He's the NIH director. [26:48] He did say people should get their measles shot. [26:50] But he was pressed about vaccines. [26:53] He was testifying under oath. [26:55] And here is what he said. [26:58] Do vaccines cause autism? [26:59] Tell that to the American people. [27:01] Yes? [27:02] No. [27:03] No. [27:04] No, no. [27:05] No. [27:06] No. [27:07] No. [27:09] No. [27:10] No. [27:11] I didn't ask measles. [27:12] Do vaccines cause autism? [27:13] No. [27:14] No. [27:15] No. [27:16] No. [27:18] No. [27:19] No. [27:20] No. [27:21] No. [27:22] No. [27:23] No. [27:24] No. [27:25] No. [27:26] No. [27:27] No. [27:28] No. [27:29] No. [27:30] No. [27:31] No. [27:32] No. [27:33] No. [27:34] No. [27:35] No. [27:36] No. [27:37] No. [27:38] No. [27:42] No. [27:43] No. [27:44] No. [27:45] No. [27:46] No. [27:47] No. [27:48] No. [27:49] No. [27:50] No. [27:51] No. [27:52] No. [27:53] No. [27:54] No. [27:55] No. [27:56] No. [27:57] No. [27:58] No. [27:59] able to give much more voice to it and embed it in official policy. [28:02] You know, Jay's comments there were very carefully worded. [28:05] He said no single vaccine causes autism. [28:08] The only vaccine that's been studied, as he pointed out in his Twitter post extensively, [28:13] is the MMR vaccine. [28:14] So he backed away from those comments the next day, I think because he and a lot of [28:18] other officials are reluctant to buck the secretary on this. [28:21] Mehmet Oz this morning was speaking to this issue, and he was very clear. [28:24] And that's what I would expect of him. [28:26] He's a good physician. [28:27] He was very clear on the importance of getting the MMR vaccine. [28:29] I think it's important that more officials step forward with those very clear messages. [28:34] You have an op-ed talking about your personal experience with cancer, and you link it to [28:38] past infection with a virus. [28:41] Can you explain that? [28:44] Yeah, look, I think a large part of the anti-vaccine dogma, if you will, is that these infections [28:49] aren't that serious to begin with. [28:51] And therefore, any risk, theoretical or actual, from the vaccines themselves isn't worth it. [28:56] It's not worth taking the vaccine to mitigate a virus that in and of itself is incidental. [29:01] That's not true. [29:02] I had Epstein-Barr virus. [29:03] It led to the development of a B-cell lymphoma. [29:06] We know that HSV-1 is associated with Alzheimer's disease. [29:10] Enterovirus is associated with type 1 diabetes. [29:12] We now believe EBV virus is associated with multiple sclerosis and maybe a causative factor [29:17] in lupus as well. [29:17] So viruses do have long-term sequelae. [29:20] Well, Dr. Gottlieb, it's an important read and another good point. [29:25] Thank you for your time today. [29:26] We'll be right back. [29:30] That's it for us today. [29:31] Thank you for watching. [29:32] Until next week, for Face the Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan.