Dr. Katharine Hayhoe Teaches Us How to Talk to People Who Don’t Believe in Climate Change

[00:00:00] Jimmy: Now we're going to talk to someone who can, I think, help us figure out how to talk to others. She's a real climate scientist. She's got a new book. This is the book. It's called "Saving Us: A Climate Scientist's Case for Hope and Healing in a Divided World." Please welcome Dr. Katherine Ayo. Hello, doctor. How are you? Thanks for joining us. [00:00:19] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Great to be with you, Jimmy. [00:00:20] Jimmy: Very good to have you. You know, I asked you here tonight, because I think you've got the-- I think you captured the essence of what we have to do. Because this really is a choice that we will make as a race, as a human race. And unfortunately, we need everybody to be on board to get on the right path, correct? [00:00:42] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Absolutely. And that's why the book's called "Saving Us." The planet will still be here. The question is, will we? [00:00:48] Jimmy: Now, you are-- you have an unusual story, because you live in Texas. You're in oil country. Your husband is a Christian pastor. You are a climate scientist living there. Are you accepted? Are you shunned by the community? [00:01:04] Dr. Katherine Ayo: I get my share of hate mail no more than once or twice a day. [00:01:07] Jimmy: OK. And are you there because you are a fish out of water in that area? Is that part of why you're there? How did you wind up there? [00:01:16] Dr. Katherine Ayo: It turns out that this is the best place to be a climate scientist. Who knew? We went here because the university wanted my husband, and I was the tag-along. But I'm living in oil country where people question the science, but where they're more vulnerable to impacts than almost anywhere else. [00:01:32] Jimmy: Right. Now, how did this become a Republican versus Democrat thing in the first place? [00:01:38] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Well, it didn't used to be. Back in the 1990s, you asked Republicans and Democrats about it, you get the same answer. So what happened? What happened is people realized, uh-oh, if we fix it, that means no more coal, no more oil, and no more natural gas. Uh-huh. And it turns out that only 90 companies produced two-thirds of all the heat-trapping gases that are causing climate change since the dawn of the industrial era. You could fit their CEOs in three buses. [00:02:08] Jimmy: Well, let's put them in buses and send them somewhere. That 90 companies. Wow, that is crazy. Now, some people seem to believe that, um, climate change is a belief in climate change that runs contrary to a belief in God. How do you tackle that one? [00:02:28] Dr. Katherine Ayo: I say they haven't read the Bible. Oh. Because if you do, Genesis 1, chapter 1, God gave humans responsibility over every living thing on this planet. End of the Bible revelation, God will destroy those who destroy the Earth. [00:02:43] Jimmy: So you don't even have to read the whole Bible. You can read the first and last page. I mean, that couldn't be easier. I thought this was interesting. You put Americans into, uh, six groups as far as this issue is concerned. Explain what those groups are. [00:03:02] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Well, we often think of two groups, us and them. And we sometimes call those two groups names like believers or deniers. But we really fall into six groups. And at the very end, we've got the dismissives, the 7%ers, the people who say it's a hoax. The ones you hear about online all the time. Your uncle who won't leave it alone. But they're only 7%. 93% of us, we can talk to people who are doubtful, people who are disengaged. They've been living under a rock the last 20 years, don't know where that rock is. Would like to know myself sometimes. Then we've got cautious and then concerned and alarmed. And you know, more than half of us are concerned or alarmed. [00:03:45] Jimmy: So the people we need to focus on are the cautious, are the ones who aren't adamantly opposed to believing in this science. And the ones who are just kind of like, I don't want to be bothered with it. Or I think you got, you liberals are being hysterical. Yes? [00:04:05] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Yeah. And say, well, do you call an army general hysterical? No. And he says, we got to get on clean energy. [00:04:12] Jimmy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And who are the experts casting doubt on this? Whose job is it to just put disinformation out there? I mean, who are these people that are literally killing themselves? [00:04:26] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Well, they are. And it begins with the fossil fuel companies. Some of the richest companies in the world have invested in disinformation organizations. They've invested in fake experts. They've invested in politicians. They've invested in people to basically deceive us and tell us that 200 years of science somehow isn't true. [00:04:48] Jimmy: So let's get to the gist of the book. Let's say you want to convince somebody who is not in that 7%, but rather in the bottom half of the percent. In fact, what I'm going to do is, I'll be like the uncle at Thanksgiving who-- --who doesn't believe in any of this stuff, who thinks it's a bunch of liberal garbage, and says, "The climate is the climate, and the earth has been going through these cycles for thousands of years, and there's nothing we can do about it." What do you say to that person? [00:05:21] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Well, first of all, you've got to address what he said. And I would simply say, "That's not true. According to natural cycles, we should be getting cooler right now, and instead we're getting warmer." But don't take a breath. Immediately pivot to something that he might care about. Uncle--what was your name again? Uncle-- [00:05:38] Speaker 3: Ernie. [00:05:39] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Uncle Ernie. Uncle Ernie, did you know that China is beating the pants off the United States when it comes to clean energy? Are you OK with that? Because I'm not. [00:05:52] Jimmy: Well, hell, I am. No. No, I'm not OK with that at all. We've got to beat the Chinese at everything, even checkers. [00:06:00] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Exactly. And you know where we have the most wind and the most solar energy potential? Right up the middle of the country where you live, Uncle Ernie. [00:06:08] Speaker 3: You're saying we got the most wind of anybody? [00:06:12] Dr. Katherine Ayo: That's right. [00:06:14] Speaker 3: Well, that's good news. [00:06:17] Dr. Katherine Ayo: It is. And you know what? We have the biggest army base in the U.S. in Texas, and it gets almost half of its power from clean energy, and it is saving us tens of millions of taxpayer dollars. I love that. Don't you, Uncle Ernie? [00:06:34] Speaker 3: I do love that. I do love that. Now, what are we going to do about the Mexicans? [00:06:42] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Give them jobs putting up those wind turbines and solar panels. [00:06:46] Jimmy: I'm sorry. Uncle Ernie is very, very difficult. I better take off the hat. What's something that we can do, Doctor, like tomorrow, to what we can do personally to make a difference and to help set us on the right track? [00:07:03] Dr. Katherine Ayo: There is one thing that everybody can do, and we're not doing it. [00:07:08] Jimmy: What is that? [00:07:09] Dr. Katherine Ayo: Talk about it. Only 14% of us are actually talking about it. And if you don't talk, why would you care? And if you don't care, why would you ever do anything about it? So have a conversation. Say you wouldn't believe it. I was listening to Jimmy last night. He said this. And he had these climate scientists on who said that we're effed, but we're not quite effed. We got some time, and we've got to fix this thing. We can't let China beat us, either. [00:07:32] Jimmy: So even though our breath creates carbon dioxide, we should talk about it amongst each other. And also, probably wouldn't hurt to read the book. This is a new book. It's called "Saving Us a Climate Scientist Case for Hope and Healing in a Divided World." Dr. Catherine Hayhoe. One other question, Dr. Hayhoe. When you hear that "Naughty by Nature" song, "Hey ho, hey ho," do you go, "Oh, that's me." Yes. OK, very good. All right. Thank you, Dr. Hayhoe. We'll be back with Julianne Moore.