Cross-Examination of Travis McMichael Continues

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Mr. Arbery, the man you'd seen on February 11th, may be the one who had run by. [00:00:05] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:00:16] Speaker 1: And then you said that you thought maybe Matt had seen him. [00:00:23] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:00:27] Speaker 1: And Matt is Mr. Albencek? [00:00:29] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:00:36] Speaker 1: And then you said he may have broken in. [00:00:42] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:00:51] Speaker 1: And then you said maybe Larry English is over on his property. [00:00:57] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:00:59] Speaker 1: And then later you indicated that you thought that maybe Mr. Arbery had been caught. [00:01:25] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:01:33] Speaker 1: And then you said that you thought maybe he was trying to get away from the police. [00:01:39] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:01:40] Speaker 1: But you hadn't heard any sirens or anything in the neighborhood. I want to talk to you about some of the legal terms that you used yesterday. Okay. [00:02:08] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. [00:02:08] Speaker 1: All right. So first I want to talk to you kind of about probable cause. All right. And you testified yesterday that you'd been trained in the military for the Coast Guard that even when you had arrest powers, before you could arrest somebody, you needed probable cause, correct? [00:02:24] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:02:25] Speaker 1: All right. And you even gave the jury the definition of probable cause, correct? Yes, ma'am. Okay. [00:02:31] Speaker ?: All right. [00:02:31] Speaker 1: You said it was a level of suspicion by a reasonable and prudent person, given the overall circumstances, to believe a crime has been committed. [00:02:40] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:02:41] Speaker 1: Yes, ma'am. All right. But that's really only half the definition, isn't it? [00:02:45] Speaker 2: That's what I was taught in my training, was that definition right there. [00:02:50] Speaker 1: So, isn't it correct that, let me ask it this way, didn't you learn from your training that you need two parts? [00:02:58] Speaker 2: Reasonable suspicion first and then probable cause. [00:03:03] Speaker 1: So, isn't it true from your training that you need two parts of probable cause? You need probable cause that a crime has actually been committed and that the person you're arresting is the one who committed the crime. [00:03:15] Speaker 2: That would be correct. [00:03:17] Speaker 1: All right. But you left out the second part, that you actually have to have probable cause that the person you're arresting is actually the one committing the crime. [00:03:27] Speaker 2: That makes sense. I mean, that was the person that I assumed that was committing the crime. That was the probable cause was him. [00:03:58] Speaker 1: So, you assumed he was the one committing the crime? [00:04:03] Speaker ?: Yes. All right. [00:04:05] Speaker 1: So, you'd agree that as law enforcement, when you were there in the military as a boarding officer, that even if you know a crime is committed, when you have several suspects, you can't just go and arrest the first suspect. You have to actually have evidence that that person is one who committed that crime, correct? [00:04:26] Speaker 2: That's correct. And I believe I had it with the videos that I've seen with him. With Mr. Arbery being the one that has been there multiple times and then what I witnessed on the 11th with him sneaking through those yards or through that yard and then the way that he reacted to me when I put the lights on him, he reacted like he was going for a gun and then went into that house after we had our altercation. And then Mr. Albenzi being there that same evening and verified that on the video is the same guy that he's seen. And then seeing Mr. Albenzi pointing down the road led to probable cause and then dad saying that that was the same individual of the probable cause that it is the same guy that has been in that house that has been breaking into and stuff has been stolen. So the overall, the totality of everything led me to go down there and see if that was him. [00:05:33] Speaker 1: So the totality of all of that led you to go see if that was him. [00:05:46] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:05:47] Speaker 1: Meaning the guy you'd seen on the 11th. [00:05:49] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:05:50] Speaker 1: All right, so you used the word totality of the circumstances a whole bunch here haven't you? Yes, I guess. Yes ma'am. All right. So let's go ahead and back up for a second. You had your gun stolen, correct? I did. On January 1st, 2020. [00:06:13] Speaker 2: Yes ma'am. [00:06:14] Speaker 1: And you had a suspect in mind for that theft of that gun, correct? [00:06:19] Speaker 2: Yes. When I had got the videos from Ms. Perez, Diego, looking through there was a truck that came through that I haven't seen in the neighborhood before. And after looking at the truck, I thought it might have been some teenagers that I would see on that part of the county. And it turned out that it was a neighbor on the other side, and that was as far as I went with that. [00:06:44] Speaker 1: Who's David Sorrells? [00:06:45] Speaker 2: I have no idea. [00:06:47] Speaker 1: Really? [00:06:52] Speaker ?: Yes ma'am. [00:06:53] Speaker 1: He's not a Facebook friend of yours? [00:06:55] Speaker 2: Not that I believe. [00:06:57] Speaker 1: Would it help to refresh your recollection if you looked at some of your Facebook posts that you shared with Mr. Sorrells? [00:07:04] Speaker 2: Absolutely. [00:07:05] Speaker 1: All right, go ahead and take a look at this. Yeah. [00:07:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, you see it here. [00:07:11] Speaker ?: Just a question. [00:07:14] Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. [00:07:36] Speaker 3: I'm sorry, we're still here. [00:07:43] Speaker ?: Yeah. Thank you. I'm going to take a look at the yellow highlighted part. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm going to take a look at the yellow highlighted part. All right. Do you know who David Sorrells is? I do not. All right. Do you know who David Sorrells is? I do not. All right. All right. [00:08:02] Speaker 1: All right. He must have been on the neighborhood page. I do remember the message now. [00:08:06] Speaker ?: I do remember the message now. I believe. [00:08:07] Speaker 1: I believe. I believe. [00:08:09] Speaker ?: I believe. I believe he must saw it on the neighborhood Facebook page. All right. So on January 1st, he says he's sorry about your gun being stolen out of your car. [00:08:23] Speaker 2: Is that right? [00:08:24] Speaker 1: Yes. That's right. [00:08:26] Speaker 2: All right. And then you indicated that you had a pretty good feeling about who stole it. Yes, ma'am. And you found out where he lived. Is that correct? Yes. And you've been watching him for several days. [00:08:34] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:08:35] Speaker 2: That's right. All right. And then you indicated that you had a pretty good feeling about who stole it. [00:08:40] Speaker 1: Yes, ma'am. And you found out where he lived. Is that correct? Yes. And you've been watching him for several days. Yes. That's right. [00:08:47] Speaker 2: And then you indicated that you had a pretty good feeling about who stole it. [00:08:50] Speaker 1: Yes, ma'am. And you found out where he lived. Is that correct? Yes. And you've been watching him for several days. [00:08:56] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:08:57] Speaker 1: That was not Mr. Arbery. [00:08:58] Speaker 2: No, that was the truck I was telling you about. [00:08:59] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:09:00] Speaker 2: And you then indicated that this may be the same individual who has been causing trouble [00:09:04] Speaker 1: in the neighborhood. Yes, ma'am. Okay. But that's not Mr. Arbery? No, ma'am. So why, in your written statement, two hours after the homicide, do you put down the very sentence on January 1st of 2020, approximately between 9:00 and 10:30, I had my vehicle broken into and my Smith & Wesson guns stolen out of my truck. [00:09:35] Speaker 2: So, because I was aware of things, of burglaries and vehicles being broken into the neighborhood. And then on top of seeing what I saw on the 11th, that there are things being broken into. I was under concern that Mr. Arbery could be a suspect in this, or he could not be. But like I said prior, he is the one that I have seen and he is the one that has been in that house several times. So, of course I'm thinking he's a suspect. But I don't know if it was him or the other people that they've seen or heard about. So, given, you don't know who stole your gun. [00:10:27] Speaker 1: There was no probable cause to arrest Mr. Arbery for the theft of your handgun on January 1st, 2020. [00:10:44] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:10:49] Speaker 1: You also didn't know who had stolen the items out of the boat, Mr. Arbery English's boat, did you? [00:10:58] Speaker 2: No, but I had a probability. I was thinking that the probability of who was doing that was the one that continued to go into this house, that has been caught in this house several times, which was Mr. Arbery. [00:11:09] Speaker 1: But you had no evidence he'd ever taken anything off of Mr. English's boat? [00:11:13] Speaker 2: Other than that there's been stuff stolen out of that house and that he has been in that house several times. [00:11:25] Speaker 1: So you have stolen items on the boat and you got that from your mom. Yes. And then you got him inside the construction site, right? Inside 220. Yes, ma'am. And at the point in time on February 23rd, you knew about October 25th? Yes. [00:11:59] Speaker 2: November 18th. [00:12:00] Speaker ?: November 18th. [00:12:01] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:12:02] Speaker 2: And February 11th. [00:12:03] Speaker 1: Yes. You also knew that the white couple had gone in on November 17th, right? I did. You also knew that there was a shady looking guy under the bridge, correct? [00:12:29] Speaker 2: I did. [00:12:30] Speaker 1: And you also suspected this guy in the neighborhood with the truck may have been the one who stole your handgun. He might have also been someone who was stealing things in the neighborhood, as you said to Mr. Sorrells, right? [00:12:55] Speaker 2: For a couple of days they decided that that was not him or was not the person that had the truck that I thought it was a different truck. So by letting that that's not- Is that Rob Way? I don't know who Rob Way is. [00:13:11] Speaker 1: So Kim Ballesteros didn't tell you that she suspected Rob Way in the neighborhood as being the one who stole her purse out of her car January 30th? [00:13:20] Speaker 2: Not that I recall, no ma'am. [00:13:22] Speaker 1: And you're telling this jury that your mother never told you that Larry English suspected his contractors? Never. All right, so about February 11th. I want to make sure yesterday. Yesterday, when you testified, did you testify that Mr. Arbery actually came toward you and started lifting up his shirt? Yes, ma'am. Okay. But you never said that before to anyone, did you? [00:14:01] Speaker 2: I put it in the statement. [00:14:04] Speaker 1: The statement? Your handwritten statement? [00:14:06] Speaker 2: The written statement, I believe I did. [00:14:12] Speaker 1: I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement, Mark. [00:14:18] Speaker 2: Sorry, Mark. We did it. No. Just a minute. [00:14:22] Speaker ?: I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. [00:14:51] Speaker 2: I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. [00:14:55] Speaker 1: I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. I'm going to hand you a copy of your handwritten statement. [00:15:02] Speaker 2: This is a written statement? Correct. Okay. [00:15:05] Speaker 1: And he turned toward my vehicle and reached into his pants which led me to think that he may have a weapon. [00:15:14] Speaker 2: Yes ma'am. [00:15:33] Speaker 1: And then you indicated I immediately put my car in reverse and the individual went into the house under construction. Correct? Yes ma'am. And that was... [00:15:52] Speaker 4: Oh. [00:15:57] Speaker 1: All right. [00:15:58] Speaker ?: Can everybody see now? [00:16:01] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:16:02] Speaker 5: And that was the publishing of State's Exhibit 120, the video clip entitled Video MP4. [00:16:25] Speaker 1: Is that your car pulling down? It is. [00:16:41] Speaker 2: Yes ma'am. [00:16:42] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:17:12] Speaker 1: Thank you. Mr. Arbery, have anything in his hands? [00:17:55] Speaker 2: Not I could see, no ma'am. [00:17:57] Speaker 1: Have a backpack with him? [00:17:59] Speaker 2: He did not. [00:18:00] Speaker 1: Any sort of bag with him? [00:18:02] Speaker 2: Not at that time, no ma'am. [00:18:04] Speaker 1: He's wearing a big long t-shirt, isn't he? [00:18:08] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:18:09] Speaker 1: And shorts cut off at the knees? [00:18:13] Speaker 2: I think they're a cargo short. [00:18:16] Speaker 1: And he's got running shoes on. [00:18:18] Speaker 2: I can't tell. [00:18:25] Speaker 1: Did you see the Nike logo swoosh in the reflection? [00:18:27] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:18:28] Speaker 1: I'll back it up for you. Did you see it then? [00:18:37] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:18:39] Speaker 1: That was State's Exhibit 117 that I just published. Now, that particular evening, you've seen the body cam video of Officer Rash, is that correct? [00:19:06] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:19:07] Speaker 1: And Officer Rash told you and told your father that Larry English said Mr. Arbery had never taken or stolen anything from the open, unsecured construction site. Is that correct? [00:19:21] Speaker 2: My understanding was never seen, saw him take anything from there. Yes, ma'am. Never saw anything taken. [00:19:27] Speaker 1: All right. And Larry English actually had never had anything stolen from the open, unsecured construction site. [00:19:35] Speaker 2: Yes, he had stuff stolen out of his boat that was inside that house. Yes, ma'am. [00:19:40] Speaker 1: But you didn't investigate that crime as a law enforcement officer, correct? [00:19:44] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:19:45] Speaker 1: Because you weren't a law enforcement officer, were you? [00:19:46] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:19:48] Speaker ?: All right. [00:19:48] Speaker 1: And your father wasn't a law enforcement officer either? He was not. Okay. So you're basing your probable cause on something that was rumor that your mother told you about things being stolen off the boat. [00:20:04] Speaker 2: I was basing it on the 11th, for seeing him in there again and hearing that the stuff was stolen off of that boat and then hearing it from the other neighbors and then from seeing on the 11th. So, yes, it happened and then seeing him come in multiple times and then everything that followed up on the 23rd, yes, that's... [00:20:27] Speaker 1: You were here when Officer Rash testified, is that right? I was. Okay. And you heard Officer Rash, under cross-examination, answer the defense attorney's question about if Mr. Larry English had filed a police report about items stolen off of his boat, correct? Yes. Okay, and he said the officer assigned would have investigated it, right? [00:20:50] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:20:51] Speaker 1: And so an officer who's investigating the theft of items off the boat would have found out from Larry English that the boat had been moved back and forth to Douglas, correct? [00:21:04] Speaker 3: She's asking him about to assume what Officer Rash would have done had he been asked to make a report about thefts by Larry English and then how he would follow up on that. This is all speculation on the witness's part. Speculating as to what Rash would have done, that's the same. [00:21:28] Speaker 1: I'll ask a better question, Your Honor. On cross-examination, do you remember Officer Rash testifying that the officer assigned, if Mr. English had filed a report, would have investigated that? Yes. Okay, and that Officer Rash, you heard him testify that that would have included interviewing Larry English, correct? Yes. All right, and you heard Larry English testify that the boat had been moved back and forth between Douglas, correct? [00:21:58] Speaker 2: He learned that, yes? [00:22:00] Speaker 1: Well, he didn't learn that. He knew it. He'd moved the boat back and forth, right? [00:22:03] Speaker 2: You're talking about Rash? [00:22:04] Speaker 3: He says, I object. I'm not sure what the relevance is about asking him what he heard people testify in court that he didn't know with his own personal knowledge on particular dates. Hearing what people later come and testify about in court is asking him to comment on the testimony before the jury. It doesn't seem to be a relevant inquiry. What he did and what he knew in those particular times, I think, surely, but what they testify about in court and how that may change his thoughts about dates in the past doesn't appear to be relevant. It's overruled. Go ahead. [00:22:41] Speaker 1: And you heard Larry English testify that he suspected his subcontractors? Yes? [00:22:52] Speaker 2: That. [00:22:53] Speaker 1: That Larry English suspected his subcontractors of having stolen the items off of his boat. You heard him testify to that? [00:22:58] Speaker 2: Here, yes, ma'am. [00:22:59] Speaker 1: Okay, and you heard him testify that he told that to Officer Rash? [00:23:02] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:23:03] Speaker 1: And you heard Officer Rash testify that he told that to your father? [00:23:06] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:23:17] Speaker 1: All right, so let's go ahead and talk about what was happening on February 23rd, 2020. All right, so you first saw, you personally first saw Ahmaud Arbery as he was running ahead of you on Burford? [00:23:43] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:23:44] Speaker 1: Okay, and you were driving behind him in the white F-150 pickup truck? [00:23:49] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:23:50] Speaker 1: All right, and at that time, when you first saw him, he didn't have a bag, did he? [00:23:55] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:23:56] Speaker 1: Didn't have a backpack? [00:23:57] Speaker 2: He did not. [00:23:58] Speaker 1: Didn't, wasn't carrying a box? [00:23:59] Speaker 2: Wasn't. [00:24:01] Speaker 1: Okay, and you could see his hands as he ran? [00:24:04] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:24:05] Speaker 1: Okay, and you could see that he was wearing the cargo shorts and the t-shirt? Yes, ma'am. All right. And you didn't know who he was? I mean, you didn't know him personally? I didn't know him personally, no, ma'am. Okay, you didn't know his name? No, ma'am. All right, didn't know anything about him? Nothing. He didn't know you? [00:24:28] Speaker 2: Not that I'm aware of. [00:24:32] Speaker 1: You just knew that he was the guy who was on video at the open, unsecured construction site? [00:24:37] Speaker 2: And that I saw on the 11th. [00:24:40] Speaker 1: And at this point in time, when you first see him on Burford, he's not reaching into his pockets? [00:24:46] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:24:46] Speaker 1: Not running, no, ma'am. And he never yelled at you guys? No, ma'am. Never threatened you at all? [00:24:55] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:24:56] Speaker 1: Never brandished any weapons? [00:24:58] Speaker 2: Sorry, your name's trying to finish his answer. Yeah, he did not threaten me verbally, no, ma'am. [00:25:02] Speaker 1: All right. Didn't brandish any weapons? [00:25:05] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:25:06] Speaker 1: Didn't pull out any guns? No, ma'am. Didn't pull out any knife? [00:25:10] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:25:12] Speaker 1: Never reached for anything, did he? [00:25:15] Speaker 2: No. He just ran? Yes, he was just running. [00:25:20] Speaker 1: So, at this point in time, you catch up to him on Burford by pulling up next to him. Is that right? [00:25:26] Speaker 2: Yes, pulling along the side, keeping with my window right there. I did. [00:25:31] Speaker 1: So, as he's running down the street, let's say this is the street, he's on this side of the road, consistent with someone driving forward, or is he on that side of the road looking at oncoming traffic? [00:25:42] Speaker 2: Oncoming traffic. [00:25:43] Speaker 1: Okay, so he's on the side for oncoming traffic? [00:25:47] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:25:48] Speaker 1: All right, so you pull up next to him. Is that right? [00:25:51] Speaker 2: Yes. You startled him? No. [00:25:54] Speaker 1: Are you a mind reader? [00:25:57] Speaker 2: I'm not, but I could see his actions, the way that he was, he didn't veer, he didn't run off. I came up to him slowly, just like I would anybody else, and I've never startled anybody doing that before, anybody walking or jogging or running. I've never had anybody become startled on that, so I don't know why it would be. [00:26:17] Speaker 1: Sorry, I didn't even cut you off. How many times have you pulled up on strangers that you don't know next to them with a pickup truck to ask them what they're doing in your neighborhood? [00:26:29] Speaker 2: I don't think I have in that situation, but I have pulled up on people that are running behind, coming up behind them. But, I mean, if you could be startled from somebody coming up behind you, it's one thing or another. You could tell if somebody is, but he, I didn't startle him. I didn't come up on him hard or fast or blowing the horn or anything. I just pulled alongside him on my side of the road right at the yellow line, and once he acknowledged me and saw that I was there, it's when I came a little closer and stayed with him. [00:27:05] Speaker 1: So, he's running, you pull up, he looks at you, and you say to him, what? [00:27:12] Speaker 2: I say, hey, what's going on? Hold on a second. [00:27:15] Speaker ?: All right. [00:27:16] Speaker 1: And he didn't say anything back to you? [00:27:17] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. He just kept running? He stopped and turned and went backwards. That was the, that was the first time. That was the one caught on Mr. Roddy's, or Mr. Brian's video. It was the, turned out to be the first, the first qualification. [00:27:36] Speaker 1: Okay, so hold on. You pull up next to him, he stops, and then he turns and starts running this way. Back down Burford towards Satilla. [00:27:46] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:27:46] Speaker 1: And then you back up. Is that right? [00:27:50] Speaker 2: I did. [00:27:51] Speaker 1: So, you back up the truck to follow him, and at some point in time, what do you say to him? [00:28:00] Speaker 2: I'm asking him, what are you doing? What's going on? What happened down there? Why is there some, you know, asking why somebody's pointing down the road? As I'm talking, that's when he turns and runs back down Burford. [00:28:14] Speaker 1: So now you're asking him, hey, why is somebody pointing down the road? That's what you're asking him? [00:28:19] Speaker 2: That's what I was trying to get to, to ask him why there's people pointing down the road. [00:28:23] Speaker 1: All right. Mr. McFly, not asking for generalities and what's in your head. I want to know exactly what you were saying to the man jogging down the street. Do you understand? [00:28:32] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:28:33] Speaker 1: Okay. What exactly did you say to him the first time you pulled up to him? [00:28:37] Speaker 2: I want to talk to you. [00:28:44] Speaker 1: And he turned and ran? [00:28:46] Speaker 2: He stopped, yeah, turned, and then went the other direction. [00:28:52] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:28:54] Speaker 1: And that was an indication to you that he didn't want to talk to you? [00:28:57] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:28:58] Speaker 1: That was an indication he was not going to stop for you? [00:29:00] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:29:03] Speaker 1: Okay. And at that point in time, you chose to put your truck in reverse and back up at him? [00:29:11] Speaker 2: Back up along with him. [00:29:15] Speaker 1: So he's trying to get away from you, doesn't want to stop, doesn't want to talk, and you're backing up to go along with him? [00:29:21] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:29:22] Speaker 1: And at some point in time then, he turns to run up Burford, right? [00:29:27] Speaker 2: Yes, I've asked him again, or asked him that I wanted to talk to him. I don't know exactly what I said, but it was to the effect that I want to talk to him and what happened down the road. [00:29:40] Speaker 1: And at this point in time, you're not wearing any sort of uniform. [00:29:57] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:29:58] Speaker 1: You're not in a marked patrol car. I'm not. You don't have any badges on your sleeves. [00:30:01] Speaker 2: I do not. [00:30:05] Speaker 1: And when you told the police you were talking to them about... Do you remember telling the police? So I pull up to him and say, hey, you know what's going on? He's running. He won't stop. I said, that's him. Stop right there. I'm at the bottom of page 8, top of page 9. Stop right there. Stop where you're at. Do you remember telling the police that that's what you said? [00:30:56] Speaker 2: That's what's on here. Yes, ma'am. You want me to read it? [00:31:03] Speaker 1: I'm just asking you if that's what you said. You said, what's going on? He won't stop. I said, that's him. Stop right there. Stop where you're at. [00:31:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's part of it. [00:31:18] Speaker ?: All right. [00:31:20] Speaker 1: So at this point, you're ordering him to stop. [00:31:28] Speaker 2: Is that correct? I wouldn't say ordering. I was asking him. [00:31:35] Speaker 1: Like nicely and politely, please, sir, stop. [00:31:38] Speaker 2: At first, it was not, please, sir, sir. Hey, could you stop? Please, you know, yes. Stop for a second. Stop for a second. My voice, affliction, and tone. I was trying to stay, I was trying to keep the situation calm. [00:31:53] Speaker 1: And this is at the time that he's already decided that he doesn't want anything to do with you and has run back down Burford towards Satilla? [00:32:01] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:32:02] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:32:02] Speaker 2: All right. [00:32:05] Speaker 1: And then we see what happens in the night owl video. Is that right? Is that what happens next? [00:32:13] Speaker 2: Night owl, Brian, yes. Yes, it's around that time. [00:32:18] Speaker 1: I'm going to find it. [00:32:40] Speaker ?: I'm going to find it. [00:32:48] Speaker 1: What's my evidence number? Hello? Okay. I need to know what the evidence number is because I can't find that. I'll be on the thing. I know it's there. [00:33:19] Speaker ?: I know it's there. I'm sorry. [00:33:46] Speaker 1: I apologize, Erin. Something's not right. And I'm worried I've missed it or somehow it is not on the ground. [00:33:53] Speaker 4: All right. As they work that out, we're going to slip in a quick break. We'll be back with more right after this. Stay with us. You watch your court TV, your front row seat to justice. Welcome back to court TV live. I'm Ted Rollins live in Kenosha, Wisconsin, where the jury deliberating the fate of Kyle Rittenhouse. We'll be back to work within minutes here at the courthouse behind me. But right now we want to get you to the courthouse in Glen County, Georgia, where Travis McMichael continues to undergo cross-examination. [00:34:26] Speaker 2: Yes, it's right at the corner of that house or lot right there. The last open area. [00:34:34] Speaker 1: Right here. [00:34:35] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:34:36] Speaker ?: Right there. [00:34:37] Speaker 2: Yes. All right. [00:34:38] Speaker 1: And so you chase him down here and at this point in time you cut him off. [00:34:47] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. I'm alongside him and ask him to stop. I want to talk to him. And then after I asked him, I want to talk to you, I want to tell you, hey, hold on a second, is when he finally stopped and I was like, okay, now we can talk. We can see what's going on. And then as soon as I said, the cops are coming after he didn't respond to me or, you know, talk to me. And I said, hey, the police are coming, stay right here. That's when he turned and ran in the other direction. [00:35:14] Speaker 1: You'd agree with me when I say that you never, ever told the Glen County Police Department or in your written statement that you said to Mr. Arbery, the police are coming. [00:35:25] Speaker 2: I don't know if I did or not. If it's not on there, then I didn't say it. But I could have missed it from everything that was happening and writing it down two hours later. I might have missed it, but I don't want an assumption that they do that. Because I was still under the impression that my dad has called the police. So I'm under the impression that the cops are coming. [00:35:51] Speaker 1: So talking about that, I'm going to have you take a look at page number nine, again, that last paragraph. So in your statement to Detective Nohilly, only a couple hours after the homicide of Ahmaud Arbery, you basically say, he goes around the corner, comes back. He's, you know, man, something's not right here. I tell him to stop, tell him to stop. Grab the gun out of the truck. I say, hey, stop, stop, stop. He runs back. Man, this, we call. You call 911 yet? Find my phone, call, give it to my dad. Said, call the cops, you know, let's get the cops. So it's only after you grabbed your shotgun out of the truck at the corner of Homes and Satilla that you say, hey, let's call the cops, and you hand the phone to your dad to call the cops. [00:36:57] Speaker 2: That's when I found out that he did not call the police, when I realized that he has not called the police. And then. [00:37:16] Speaker 1: So also on page nine, you never indicated that Mr. Arbery actually stopped long enough for you to have a conversation with him. Is that correct, at the top of page nine? [00:37:44] Speaker 2: Yes, I do. I said, he's running, he won't stop. I said, that's him. Stop right there. Stop where you're at. Call the cops, you know. And I'm assuming, or what I'm saying there is, I told him that I called the cops. There he is. He starts acting funny. And then he takes off running. So he was stopped. If he takes off running, then he was stopped at the point. [00:38:04] Speaker 1: Do you remember yesterday telling this jury that that's what you said to your dad? Call the cops, you know, there he is. Do you remember telling this jury just yesterday that that was what you said to your dad? Call the cops. There he is. He starts acting funny. He takes off running. [00:38:18] Speaker 2: I believe I said, have you called the cops yet? And then on this here is what I mentioned to the police in the interview. And reading this and knowing how I was all over the place when I was giving that statement, this is what I was talking about. This is what I believe is what I was talking about. [00:38:41] Speaker 1: But to your degree, nowhere in here do you say that Mr. Arbery actually stopped. You said, stop right there, stop where you're at, and he takes off running. [00:38:51] Speaker 2: He takes off running. [00:38:53] Speaker 1: So nowhere in here do you indicate to Detective Nohilly that he stopped long enough for you to say the police are on their way and that that's why he took off running. Nowhere in here and nowhere in your written statement is that indicated. [00:39:06] Speaker 2: In those terms, saying it in that verbatim I did not, but looking at this and how I was still under stress, still under the impact of what happened a couple hours after this, just two hours after the shooting. And then seeing how I was talking, under stress, nervous, scared, I know what I was talking about here and that's what I was talking about. They call the cops, you know, stop where you're at, call the cops. I'm probably choppy trying to talk to him, being nervous and saying that I was saying this to Mr. Arbery and then he takes off running. If you're running, he continued running, he takes off running. I think that's what I was talking about there. [00:39:54] Speaker 1: So what were you nervous about while giving this statement? [00:39:58] Speaker 2: I just killed a man. I had blood on me still. It was the most traumatic event of my life. I was scared to death. I mean, it was the most traumatic event of my life. I don't know anybody who wouldn't be scared or stressed or terrified or anything. I mean, it was horrible. [00:40:16] Speaker 1: I'm talking about giving your statement two hours later at a police station. You were nervous because you thought you were going to jail, right? [00:40:23] Speaker 2: No, I was, I gave him a statement. I mean, if I would have... [00:40:28] Speaker 1: You don't think you're going to jail, is what you're saying? [00:40:32] Speaker 2: I was going through an investigation. I was following the investigation. [00:40:37] Speaker 1: So, you saw Officer Duggan's body cam, correct? Officer Duggan, the first officer who testified, his body cam. [00:40:47] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:40:47] Speaker 1: All right. You were standing right behind Officer Duggan while all that went on, right? [00:40:52] Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess. Yes, ma'am. [00:40:53] Speaker 1: Okay. So, you've just shot Mr. Arbery three times with his shotgun, correct? [00:40:58] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:40:59] Speaker 1: He's dead on the scene, correct? Correct. He's unarmed, correct? He was. All right. And your father came up to you and grabbed you by the shoulders and went, you had no choice, you had no choice, right? You saw that? Yes. All right. You're covered in Mr. Arbery's blood. You go down to the police station, correct? [00:41:22] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:41:23] Speaker 1: All right. Any idea with that? No. [00:41:39] Speaker 3: Let's keep going. [00:41:40] Speaker 1: Okay. And at that point, you're in the safety of the police department giving your statement, correct? [00:41:50] Speaker 5: Yes. All right. [00:41:51] Speaker 1: You've got all the time in the world. Correct? Yes. [00:41:55] Speaker ?: All right. [00:41:55] Speaker 1: And Detective O'Hilly hasn't threatened you? [00:41:58] Speaker 2: No. [00:41:59] Speaker 1: Hasn't forced you to make a statement? [00:42:01] Speaker 2: He did not. [00:42:02] Speaker 1: Okay. And didn't promise you anything in order to get you to make a statement? [00:42:09] Speaker 2: We'll look real quick. He did not. [00:42:22] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:42:23] Speaker 1: But you're telling this jury that you're all confused and you can't get the facts straight as you're telling the police about why it was you shot and killed a man. [00:42:36] Speaker 2: I was trying with my best ability. I was trying with my best ability. But like I said, under the circumstances of going through a traumatic event, this is the most traumatic event that I have ever been through in my life. I've never been through a situation like that so the reaction, trying to go through and trying to be as factual and to tell as detailed as I could and then looking through the transcript and being scattered as it was, I could tell that obviously I failed attempting to try as best I could. [00:43:10] Speaker 1: So fair to say you never told Detective Nohilly nor wrote down in your written statement that you told Mr. Arbery that the police were on their way. [00:43:27] Speaker 2: It seems that I attempted to say it in these words here. [00:43:30] Speaker 1: And at that point, Mr. Arbery turns around and runs back down Burford to get away from you, correct? Yes. That's correct. So at this point in time, he's running away from you. He has not threatened you. [00:43:46] Speaker 2: No. [00:43:47] Speaker 1: Hasn't pulled out a gun. No, ma'am. Hasn't pulled out a knife. [00:43:51] Speaker 2: He did not. [00:43:52] Speaker 1: Still arms at his sides. [00:43:54] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:43:55] Speaker 1: And he's trying to get away from you. [00:43:57] Speaker 2: And I was letting him run away. Yes, ma'am. [00:43:59] Speaker 1: You were letting him run away. [00:44:02] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:44:03] Speaker 1: Wasn't it your intention to go around the block and cut him off and find him over on the other side? [00:44:15] Speaker 2: To head him off and to see where he's located. That was my intention. Yes, ma'am. [00:44:21] Speaker 1: All right. But you could have stopped right there and not done anything, right? [00:44:26] Speaker 2: Yes, but then immediately after is when I saw his interaction with the black truck and realized that there is something to my suspicions here. And I would like to see where he is at when the cops come, which I assume that the police were on the way, that I would be able to tell them where he's at if they haven't located him at that point. [00:44:49] Speaker 1: So you're telling this jury that your whole intention was just to go ahead and follow Mr. Arbery, keep an eye on him, and to just tell the cops there he is? [00:45:01] Speaker 2: At that point, yes, ma'am. Okay. [00:45:03] Speaker 1: Now, it's true that your father, while in the truck with you, going down Burford towards that end, was yelling at you, "Cutters." Was yelling at you, "Cut him off, cut him off, cut him off," right? [00:45:21] Speaker 2: He was talking to me or was telling me. I don't know if he was saying, "Cut him off or not." I know that he was saying, "There he is. That's the guy." After that, I am not sure exactly what he said. [00:45:38] Speaker 1: At this point, you're still yelling at Mr. Arbery to stop at the end of Burford. [00:45:44] Speaker 2: I was not yelling at him at home Burford, no ma'am. [00:45:47] Speaker 1: At the end of Burford, you and your dad both got out of the pickup truck, correct? [00:45:51] Speaker 2: When he turned and started running down Burford, when he was away, when he was not a threat, if he wanted to be a threat and he was going past that, I got out of the truck, yes ma'am. But he turned and ran running away is when I got out of the vehicle. [00:46:07] Speaker 1: Why in the world would Mr. Arbery be a threat to you? [00:46:10] Speaker 2: Because of when I asked him what was going on and recognized that it was the guy that I saw on the 11th and Mr. Albenzi pointing and everything going down and realized that it is him and then how he reacted when I shined the lights on him on the 11th. He was obviously caught sneaking through the front yard. He was obviously where he wasn't supposed to be where he hasn't been several times and then he reaches into his pants and he has a gun and I took that as a threatening gesture and walked in the house. Now it's the same guy on the 23rd that I've just pulled up to that turned out my father was correct, people pointing down the road, the same scene that this happened 12 days prior, that yes, there was a possibility that he may be armed with that gesture, but he didn't show me that and he started running down the road. I was no longer I was no longer I was no longer under a threat if there was to be one. So I got out of the vehicle after my father got out of the vehicle to see what was going on, to watch him. [00:47:22] Speaker 1: So when you first pulled up to him, very first time, you confirmed it was him, right? Yes, ma'am. All right. You testified under oath to this jury that I'm not going to chase or investigate someone who is armed, right? That's correct. And yet you want this jury to believe now that he was a threat to you, okay, and that you perceived him as a threat, yet you continued to chase him down Burford. I didn't know if he was a threat or not. [00:47:50] Speaker 2: He never reached in his pockets and I wanted to see what was happening. I figured I could talk to him at this point or, you know, getting up to him on the second point. [00:47:57] Speaker 1: But hadn't at this point, he demonstrated not once, not twice, but three times, he did not want to talk to you. [00:48:04] Speaker 2: Which, when I'm at the stop, when I stopped at Burford? Mm-hmm. [00:48:09] Speaker 1: Right. Because you pulled up to him once, he doesn't want to talk to you. You back up, he doesn't want to talk to you. You pull down Burford, your dad's yelling, "Cut him off, cut him off." And all of a sudden, he runs back, he doesn't want to talk to you. That's three times he's demonstrated to you that he does not want to talk to you, correct? Yes. He's also demonstrated he's no threat to you. He hasn't pulled out a gun. [00:48:27] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:48:28] Speaker 1: He hasn't said one word to you. [00:48:30] Speaker 2: He has not. [00:48:31] Speaker 1: He's not threatened you in any way, verbally or physically. [00:48:34] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:48:35] Speaker 1: No knives? No knives. All right. He's not swearing at you using profanity or anything like that, is he? Didn't talk. So at this point, you get out of the truck, correct? [00:48:50] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:48:51] Speaker 1: And you get out with your shotgun? [00:48:52] Speaker 2: No. I got out, when my father got out, they get in the back, and then my shotgun slipped and was in the floorboard where my feet were all over it. Once I'm out of the vehicle, it was safe to, you know, I'm not going to reach out. I wasn't going to grab it while Mr. Arbery was right there. There was no reason for it. He's run off. I'm on the side of the truck. So at that point, I grabbed the shotgun out of the floorboard and put it back on the seat. [00:49:16] Speaker 1: Your dad gets out with his .357 Magnum, correct? [00:49:19] Speaker 2: I didn't know if he had it on him or not. I knew he had it, but I didn't see it. He didn't have it in his hand. [00:49:25] Speaker 1: So he didn't have it in his hand as he ran about 10 yards down the road after Mr. Arbery? [00:49:30] Speaker 2: He didn't run down the road after Mr. Arbery. He didn't run down the road after Mr. Arbery. [00:49:54] Speaker 1: At this point, you see Mr. Bryan pull out in his black GMC truck to try and run Mr. Arbery off the road. [00:50:07] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. I saw, after I put the shotgun back onto the seat when it was on the floorboard and then watching dad or talking to dad or, you know, trying to figure out what's going on. When I looked back down the road, I didn't, I don't know Mr. Bryan. I didn't know where he lived. I didn't see him when I had the first encounter with Mr. Arbery. My assumption, I was assuming from what I saw that he came from Satilla. So the vehicle was at what I thought was the very end of the road. More than likely seeing the video the other day where the tree was closest to Burford. It was towards the end where it was almost on the road. I'm certain that's where I saw the encounter with him. And it didn't look like he was running him off the road. It actually looked like Mr. Arbery. I thought the vehicle was stopping like Arbery went to the left side and then to the right and then went back to the left. It looked like he was engaging with that vehicle. [00:51:15] Speaker 1: So you're all the way down here. I'll do it on this one. All the way down here. [00:51:23] Speaker 2: Around there, yes ma'am. [00:51:25] Speaker 1: Okay. And there, all the way down here by the time you look at them, is that what you're saying? [00:51:31] Speaker 2: By the time I notice it, yes ma'am. [00:51:33] Speaker 1: Okay. And you want this jury to believe that you thought Mr. Arbery was the one engaging in this black vehicle. Not that the black vehicle was trying to hit him or run him off the road. [00:51:50] Speaker 3: Mr. Jack to the form of the question you want this jury to believe. I think that's an improper form of the question. I think she can ask him questions and he can answer, but to insinuate that he has some motive for the jury to believe is improper. It's cross-examination. Go ahead. [00:52:09] Speaker 1: Thank you. So you want this jury to believe that it's Mr. Arbery who's the aggressor with the black truck, not that the black truck's the one trying to run him off the road to help you? [00:52:18] Speaker 2: I didn't see the truck trying to run him off the road. What I saw from down there, what I saw was the vehicle looked to be at a stop and Mr. Arbery was engaging the vehicle. [00:52:27] Speaker 1: And then Mr. Arbery was able to get away from the black vehicle. [00:52:32] Speaker 2: He ran past the vehicle. [00:52:39] Speaker 1: And your dad wanted to go down there to see what was happening, right? That's correct. But you wanted to go around to cut him off? No, ma'am. [00:52:46] Speaker 2: I wanted to get around and to see where he was at, not to cut him off. Not the way you're saying cut him off. No, I wanted to see where he was at, to be in that same area to let the police know where he was coming. [00:53:08] Speaker 1: I'm going to have you take a look at page 24, middle of the page. I'm sorry, back up to page 23, please. Take a look at page 23. So, line 16. So he turned and went back down this road. Dad's like, hey, go down there. I said, I'm not going through that. I'm not going back to him. And this is about the time that the black truck that was at the scene, that's when he tried to stop it. [00:54:09] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:54:10] Speaker 1: Alright. So here you're telling the police the black truck at the scene was trying to stop Mr. Arbery. [00:54:16] Speaker 2: That's what I was believing, yes. [00:54:18] Speaker 1: That was right here in this corner, just on Burford, probably a house past this intersection. So I turned and went this way. [00:54:28] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:54:29] Speaker 1: Alright. And then he came down, came around, came down Holmes Drive. He was right there. I said, good. We'll probably, we'll have a chance to stop him now. Correct? [00:54:41] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:54:42] Speaker 1: Alright. And then the black truck's right there. I was over here. Hey, stop, stop. Well, he's running up the road and I've seen him coming. Do you remember that? [00:54:53] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:54:54] Speaker 1: Alright. So, you came around Holmes and you were a few houses down when you encountered Mr. Arbery and yelled at him once again, stop, stop. Is that right? [00:55:05] Speaker 2: I think I had it wrong on here. Uh, like I said, once I was bouncing back and forth, trying to explain everything that happened, that, uh, that I misspoke on there. I don't know where I would say to stop, stop. Uh, where was it that I said stop? Came down, came around, came down Holmes Drive. He was right there. I said, good, we'll probably have a chance to stop him now. Black truck's right there. I was over here. Hey, stop, stop. Well, he was running down the road. I seen him coming. So, yeah, that was at the end of Holmes, uh, right on the other side of the dog lake. [00:55:45] Speaker 1: Alright, well, do you notice how it says, the investigating of Hilly right after that says, "Which way is he running?" And you said, "He's coming up this way, and where are you at at this time?" I came around and turned off this road. I was about, I'm not really sure how far I was, I was a few houses down." So, you're a few houses down. He's asking you specifically, "When did you say, hey, stop, stop?" I was a few houses down, correct? [00:56:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't hear this, correct. Okay. [00:56:11] Speaker 1: And, you also got out of your truck at that time, a few houses down on Holmes Drive. [00:56:22] Speaker 2: Oh, and here's what I said, but I, I don't believe that's what happened. I don't believe, I believe I misspoke or had it wrong or had it mixed up to when I stopped at the end of Holmes. Okay. [00:56:36] Speaker 1: But you also wrote it down in your written statement. [00:56:41] Speaker ?: First quote. [00:56:42] Speaker 1: Take a look at your written statement. [00:56:44] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:56:45] Speaker 1: That's about two-thirds of the way down. On page. [00:56:51] Speaker 2: Two. [00:56:52] Speaker 1: So, I decided to continue down Burford towards Zellwood, then take on to Holmes to see if he would be there. Is that right? Do you see that line? [00:57:07] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:57:08] Speaker 1: Okay. And then it said, then you wrote, "I made it halfway down and seen the individual turn and run back the way he came, then turn back toward me when the black GMC Chevy turned onto the road." That's correct. [00:57:25] Speaker 2: That's correct. That was at the end of Satilla. [00:57:28] Speaker 1: Well, you said, "I got out of my truck and told him to stop, which he didn't. I got back into my truck and stopped just short of the stop sign on Holmes facing Satilla." So, you had actually stopped, gotten out of your truck, told him to stop, which he didn't, then got back in your truck, then pulled down to Satilla and Holmes. [00:57:50] Speaker 2: That, looking back after everything cooled off, where I stopped, and I don't recall if I got out or not. I think I had this mixed with when I finally pulled up, both times where I said I stopped and got out. I was saying when I stopped and saw Mr. Arbery and the black truck coming at me. We were on Holmes just short of where the shooting occurred. I probably yelled stop at him, but then once they passed me is when I pulled up a couple more feet and decided to stay where I was at. That's what I was speaking about here. [00:58:37] Speaker 1: Isn't it true that at this point in time when you're a few houses down, Holmes, you stop, you get out, you yell at him stop, stop. That's when your father yelled at him? So, I mean, you were standing right there, you heard your father say this, yes? [00:58:55] Speaker 2: I don't think I heard him say that, no, no. [00:59:00] Speaker 1: But you know that's what he told the police, he said. [00:59:02] Speaker 2: In here in court is what I heard, yes, ma'am. [00:59:11] Speaker 1: So at this point, you're coming down Holmes and you see Mr. Arbery coming toward you. [00:59:22] Speaker 2: He was in the middle of a turn, he was turning from, he was on the right side of the road turning left in that apex is when I saw him there. Uh, the first time I saw him on Holmes. He was in the middle of a turn turning back towards Satilla on Holmes. [00:59:38] Speaker 1: Is that what the video picks up? [00:59:41] Speaker 2: I don't think so, no ma'am. [00:59:43] Speaker 1: So, you're saying that you're coming down this way and he's running toward your truck, he's turning around and he runs back this way. You don't see the black truck at this point? [01:00:00] Speaker 2: No ma'am. [01:00:01] Speaker 1: All right, but then all of a sudden he's running back toward you and you see the black truck behind him? [01:00:05] Speaker 2: No. When I came around the dog leg, the black truck and Mr. Arbery were together. The black truck obviously just came off of Satilla and were heading towards me on Holmes, towards Elwood. [01:00:18] Speaker 1: So you're saying at this point you've made it all the way down here? [01:00:22] Speaker 2: He was turning, he was on the right side of the road turning left. When I saw him he was in the middle of the turn and then he turned and was out of sight around that dog leg. And I continued and then once I got to the dog leg is when I saw him and Mr. Arbery, or the black vehicle, coming my way. [01:00:48] Speaker 1: And at that point he's pinned between the two vehicles? [01:00:51] Speaker 2: He was. [01:00:57] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:00:58] Speaker 1: You get down to the end of here having passed Mr. Arbery and the black truck. [01:01:09] Speaker 2: No, I was at a stop and they passed me. I let Mr. Arbery run by and I let the vehicle pass me. I was stopped in the correct lane and saw them coming and that was when Mr. Arbery and the black truck were. Mr. Arbery was running alongside the truck grabbing at the mirror and the door. And then that's when they split, when they were coming into my lane, that's when they split. Mr. Arbery were on the passenger side and the black vehicle turned, went back into his lane and then was following Mr. Arbery as they went around that dog leg. [01:01:44] Speaker 1: In order for you to get from here to here with them behind you, you had to have passed Mr. Arbery and the black pickup truck, correct? [01:01:58] Speaker 2: That's when they passed, that's when they passed me, it was back there. It was was towards till. Yes, ma'am. [01:02:05] Speaker ?: Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [01:02:11] Speaker 3: I'll take a 15 minute recess and then continue with the evidence in the case. Thank you.