Alexander Butterfield (Full) Watergate Hearings Testimony

[0:05] from washington impact continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on [0:10] presidential campaign activities here again correspondent jim lehrer as we go back to the [0:16] hearings the committee is about to get some confirmation of john dean's suspicion that [0:20] his talks with the president were recorded the surprise witness witness is alexander butterfield [0:33] subcommittee will come to order mr butterfield will you stand and raise your right hand [0:40] you swear the evidence that you shall give the select senate select committee on presidential [0:46] campaign activities shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so happy god [0:51] i do mr chairman be seated and uh suppose just for the record that you state uh your name and uh [0:59] uh pleasant occupation and address my name is alexander porter butterfield i am the administrator [1:10] of the federal aviation administration my home address is 7416 admiral drive alexandria virginia [1:20] thank you mr chairman at a staff interview with mr butterfield on friday some very significant [1:28] information was elicited it was attended by majority members of the staff and minority members the [1:33] information was elicited by a minority staff member therefore i'd like to change the usual routine of [1:39] questioning and ask minority council to begin the questioning mr butterfield thank you mr dash [1:47] betterfield i understand you previously were employed by the white house is that correct that's [1:55] correct during what period of time were you employed by the white house i would like to preface my [2:01] remarks if i may mr thompson i'm sorry i believe you do have a go right ahead although i do not have a [2:08] statement as such i would simply like to remind the committee membership that whereas i appear [2:18] voluntarily this afternoon i appear with only some three hours notice and without time to arrange for [2:29] permanent counsel or for assistance by a temporary counsel that's all i have to say mr thompson [2:37] during what period of time were you employed at the white house mr butterfield i was at the white [2:49] house as a deputy assistant to the president from the first day of the next administration january 21 [2:57] 1969 until noon of march 14 1973. and what were your duties at the white house my duties were many and [3:11] varied as a matter of fact mr thompson i'll try to state them briefly i was in charge of [3:19] administration that is to say that the staff secretary who is the day-to-day administrator at [3:27] the white house reported directly to me and of course i reported to mr haldeman as did everyone [3:34] in addition to administration i was responsible for the management and ultimate supervision of the [3:43] office of presidential papers and the office of special files both of those offices pertain to the [3:52] the collection of documents which will eventually go to the nixon library thirdly i was in charge of [4:03] security at the white house insofar as liaison with the secret service and the executive protective [4:11] service is concerned and insofar as fbi background investigations for prospective presidential appointees is [4:24] concerned a fourth duty was that i was the secretary to the cabinet i had that duty not from january [4:39] 21st 1969 but from november i believe november 4th 1969 through until the day i departed march 14th of this [4:50] year i was additionally the liaison between the president and the office of the president and all of the [5:02] the various support units by that i mean the office of the military assistant to the president the office [5:11] of white house visitors again the secret service the executive protective service the resident staff [5:19] mrs nixon's staff i served as sort of the conduit between all of those elements and the office of the [5:26] president finally i was in charge of the smooth running of the president's official day both in washington dc [5:37] and at the western white house in san clemente i had nothing to do with the smooth running of his day [5:46] in florida or at camp david but i was responsible for the the smooth implementation of the official [5:54] events on his calendar in washington and at the western white house that pretty well sums it up sir [6:01] so you were employed on january 21st 1969 and continue to be employed until march 14 of this [6:09] year is that correct that's correct mr butterfield are you aware of the installation of any listening [6:14] devices in the oval office of the president i was aware of listening devices yes sir when were those [6:26] devices placed in the oval office approximately the summer of 1970 i cannot begin to recall the precise date [6:39] my guess mr thompson is that the installation was made between and this is a very rough guess [6:49] april or may of 1970 and perhaps the end of the summer or early fall 1970 are you aware of any [6:59] devices that were installed in the executive office building office of the president yes sir at [7:05] that time were they installed at the same time they were installed at the same time could you tell [7:10] us a little bit about how those devices worked uh how they were activated for example i don't have [7:21] the technical knowledge but i will tell you what i know about how those devices were triggered they [7:31] were installed of course for historical purposes to record the president's business and they were [7:39] installed in his two offices the oval office and the eob office within the west wing of the white house [7:47] there are several at least three perhaps four but three that i know of boxes called presidential locator [7:55] boxes these are square boxes approximately 10 by 10 inches and on them are several locations about [8:08] seven locations which would tell where the president might be at any time locations such as the residence [8:16] that's one of them south grounds is another oval office is another eob office is a still another [8:30] west wing meaning west wing of the white house is another and out i think is is the last one when the [8:40] president moves uh east wing is a is still another and i think that covers all of the locations indicated on [8:48] the box when the president moves from his oval office for instance to his executive office building [8:55] office and he departs the west wing and crosses the street it is my understanding that the secret [9:02] service agents members of the presidential protected division who cover him and they're [9:07] four to five to six of them who would move with him across the street one of them calls a central [9:14] location which may be the police switchboard under the east wing or it may be a secret [9:21] service command post i don't really know if it's a secret service command post it's in the [9:25] executive office building and says that the president is leaving the west wing going to the eob office [9:31] they would they would know this and the little light moves from oval office to eob office it doesn't [9:39] actually move to eob office until the president enters the eob office and as that light moves there is a tiny [9:49] audio signal so that if one is preoccupied such as i might be i realize that the locator [9:55] boxes indicating a change in the president's location and that kind of information was important [10:02] to me my office was located immediately adjacent to the president's oval office on the west side [10:09] my duties involved going in and out frequently and working directly with the president mr steve bull [10:18] who at that time worked on the other side of the president on the east side of the oval office [10:22] had one of these locator boxes and mr haldeman had a third i believe there was a fourth in mr [10:29] chapin's office in fact i'm sure there was a fourth in mr chapin's office we were probably the four who [10:34] would be most concerned or at least most immediately concerned with the president's whereabouts or the [10:40] fact that he was changing locations in that the oval office and the executive office building office [10:49] were indicated on this locator box the installation was installed in such a way that when the light was [11:02] on oval office the taping device was at least triggered it was not operating but it was triggered [11:09] it was spring-loaded if you will and then it was voice actuated so when the light was on oval office [11:18] in the oval office and in the oval office only the taping device was spring-loaded to a voice actuating [11:26] situation when the president went to the eob office and the light was on eob office there was the same [11:33] arrangement with those two offices the arrangement was the same and the taping picked up all conversation [11:40] or all noise in those two offices when the light was at those positions we discussed the oval office [11:49] and the the eob office what about the cabinet room was there a taping device in the cabinet room [11:57] yes sir there was was it activated in the same way no sir it wasn't and my guess is and it's only my guess [12:07] is that because there was no cabinet room location per se on the locator box there was only a west [12:14] wing indication when the light was on west wing that meant the president was in one of two places [12:20] the cabinet room or the the barber shop when he went into the cabinet room the light went to west wing [12:28] but he could have been someplace else in the west wing and so to ensure the recording of business [12:36] conversations in the cabinet room uh a manual installation was made i don't want to hurry [12:45] you uh mr butterfield but i understand there's a vote in about 12 minutes so if we could go through [12:49] it rather rapidly the first time we might come back up and come back and pick up some of the the loose [12:55] ends i understand the the recording device in the cabinet room was manually operated then is that [13:01] correct that's correct were there buttons on the desk uh in the cabinet room there that activated that [13:06] device there were two buttons was there also pardon me was there also an activating device on your [13:13] telephone yes sir there was an off an off on button or one that said haldeman one that said butterfield [13:21] that was on and off respectively and one on my telephone how how was the device usually activated by [13:27] the buttons or by your telephone activator uh to my knowledge the president did never uh pay any [13:35] attention to the buttons on the at the cabinet table it was activated by the button on my telephone [13:40] by me all right as far as the oval office and eob office is concerned would it be your opinion that [13:46] those devices would pick up any and all conversations no matter where the conversations took place within [13:51] the room and no matter how soft the conversations might have been with regard to the oval and eob offices [14:00] yes sir it's my was it was a little bit more difficult to pick up in the cabinet room yes sir it was a [14:05] great deal more difficult to pick up in the cabinet all right we've talked about three rooms now and [14:09] if i could could move on to telephones are you aware of the installation of any devices on any of [14:16] the telephones first of all the oval office yes sir what about the the uh executive office building [14:24] office of the president yes sir the president's business telephone at his desk in the executive [14:29] office building what about the lincoln room yes sir the telephone in the lincoln sitting room in the [14:34] residence what about aspen cabin uh at count david only in or on the telephone at the president's [14:43] desk in his study in the aspen cabin his personal cabin as my understanding of this cabin was sometime [14:50] used by foreign dignitaries was was the device still present during those periods of time no sir [14:57] the device was removed prior to occupancy by chiefs of state heads of government and other foreign [15:05] dignitaries all right did you state who installed these devices all of these devices as far as you [15:11] know i didn't say no sir well who did uh the secret service the technical security division of the [15:20] secret service all right now you alluded to to what you state is the reason for the installation of [15:24] these devices uh did you state why as far as your understanding is concerned these devices were installed in these rooms [15:31] well there was no doubt in my mind that they were installed to record things for posterity for the [15:40] nixon library the president was very conscious of that kind of thing we had quite an elaborate setup at [15:46] the white house for the collection and preservation of of documents and of things which transpired in [15:53] the way of business of state on whose authority were they installed mr butterfield on the president's [16:00] authority by way of mr haldeman and mr higby the president instruct mr haldeman and mr haldeman instruct [16:07] mr higby who in turn instructed you mr haldeman instructed mr higby to tell me and as i said earlier [16:14] i was the liaison with the secret service it would be proper for me to give the instruction to the secret [16:22] service during your tenure at the at the white house as far as your own knowledge is concerned who else [16:26] knew about the presence of these recording devices the president mr haldeman mr higby and i plus the [16:43] secret service people who i would prefer not to name in this public hearing and that this kind of thing [16:50] is a part of their profession and i i'm not sure that all right the correctness of that statement or [16:55] the propriety of refusing what other non-secret service personnel besides those you have mentioned [17:02] now know of those devices when i departed oh i there was one other my secretary i knew also at this [17:13] time although she was not informed early on she was informed much later because there were a number [17:20] of occasions on which i just could not be there to press this button and i briefed her and asked her to [17:27] do it before me but she does not did not have any idea of the extent of this i think she was only aware [17:34] of the cabinet room perhaps she was aware of the oval office when i departed i was authorized to brief [17:40] steve bull who now occupies that office and now has many of the responsibilities that i had general haig [17:54] who is sitting at mr haldeman's desk knows and i i believe that's all sir as far as you know did mr [18:05] ehrlichman or mr dean know about the existence or the presence of those devices that would be very [18:10] unlikely my guess is that they definitely did not know where were the where were the tapes of these [18:15] conversations kept maintained i cannot say where i'm quite sure in the executive office building in [18:27] some closets or cupboards or files which are maintained by the technical security division of the [18:34] u.s secret service were these uh tapes checked periodically yes they were checked at least daily they [18:42] were i think some were used more frequently than than others of course they were the secret service [18:49] knew this they made sure that they were checked periodically and uh sufficiently too do you know [18:58] how many conversations or how many days would be represented on one particular tape no sir i do not [19:07] there were a number of days and during which the president was not at the white house so i the business [19:14] was light and there were the days the business was exceedingly heavy i couldn't say did you ever hear any of [19:19] these tapes being played yes sir i did it was my duty to ensure that the equipment was working properly [19:30] i checked the oval office eob office cabinet room tapes several times and as i told you earlier it was [19:41] always working properly in the oval office and the eob office it was very very difficult to pick up [19:46] conversation in the cabinet room and i never did check any of the telephones when any of these tapes ever [19:53] transcribed as far as you know i didn't hear you sir were any of these tapes ever transcribed reduced [20:00] writing or typewritten paper as far as you know to my recollection no was there ever any discussion of [20:05] transcribing any of these tapes to my recollection no sir but you mentioned that they were for historical [20:12] purposes was there ever any discussion about uh going ahead and catching up on uh the tapes that you [20:18] had previously required well i by discussion i was thinking of discussion by others uh on at least one [20:25] occasion uh not in necessarily a serious vein but in very offhand rather casual conversation to mr haldeman [20:35] i did say that we should go ahead and get a leg up on the transcribing of these tapes and that the storage [20:45] problem was getting to be quite fantastic and eventually they had to be transcribed for the [20:51] nixon library and i it was my suggestion that we get three or four or five highly trustworthy secretaries [20:58] and begin the typing so that at the end of the nixon term we'd at least have a year a year and a half [21:04] or two years out of the way did you talk to any of the secret service agents when they went about [21:08] installing these devices in the various offices did i talk to them when they went about the installation were [21:15] you present during the installation oh no sir i was not i simply gave the instruction in my office [21:22] immediately after i was asked to do just that did they indicate that they were familiar with [21:28] how they should go about installing these devices there was sort of the intimation that that they were [21:36] yes sir but that's that's very definitely my interpretation of of that no one said that to me would [21:44] it be an information that they had done this before i have heard that rumored and together with [21:52] the intimation on this occasion i mentioned i assume that it has but i certainly don't have any [22:00] proof far from it all right mr butterfield as far as you know from your own personal knowledge from 1970 [22:09] then until the present time all of the president's conversations and the offices mentioned and on the [22:16] telephones mentioned were recorded as far as you know that's correct until until i left it someone could [22:26] have taken the equipment out but until the day i left i'm sure i would have been notified and as [22:32] far as you know those tapes are still available as far as i know but i've been away for four months [22:39] sir i have no further questions uh mr butterfield just a few questions because i think mr thompson's [22:48] questions have pretty much elicited most of the testimony i think what you're saying was that at all [22:55] times certainly in the white house itself either in the oval office or if in the executive office of [23:02] the president where there was a locator light whenever the president moved and locator light [23:09] moved to where the president was it triggered the microphones and then whenever anybody started to [23:14] speak in that office where the microphones were as a voice activated device it began to the recording [23:21] device uh began to operate is that not true that is true yes sir now when someone finished speaking [23:27] would it stop at that point or would there be some lag picked up to pick up an answer it was explained to [23:34] me by those who installed the equipment that the equipment allowed for a lag so that no portion of a [23:45] conversation would be omitted so if i were talking to you and stop talking just momentarily the tape would [23:54] not stop it would continue for a moment or two so that it would pick up your response if you should [24:00] respond immediately now is your understanding that this operated on an ongoing basis daily this this [24:07] system operated on an ongoing basis daily yes sir uh to your knowledge did the president ever ask [24:15] while he was in the oval office uh to have the system not operate the light not the locator light not [24:22] show in that office so as to trigger the device no sir as a matter of fact the president seems to be [24:30] totally really oblivious or certainly uninhibited by this fact well at least he a he authorized it to [24:40] be installed in the first place and thereafter as you say he has not paid any attention to it [24:45] that's true sir and by not paying attention to it that meant that the device was working at all times [24:50] yes sir and this is true in the cabinet room where you said that the president could by switch actually [24:55] turn it off as a matter of fact it was you who or your secretary whenever there was to be a cabinet [25:01] meeting would see to it through the button on your phone that the microphones were activated i don't [25:07] want to involve my secretary to that extent i did it all the time and i think only on one occasion i [25:12] had to call in and ask her to go to my phone and push a certain button that i described and [25:17] it was most mysterious to her and at a later date i i explained what i had meant and asked her [25:22] to say nothing and i'm sure that she never did now the tapes which you mentioned which is stored are [25:28] they stored by particular date yes sir they are and so that if either mr dean mr halliman mr ehrlichman mr [25:36] colson had particular meetings in the oval office with the president on any particular dates that had [25:41] been testified before this committee there would be a tape recording with the president of that full [25:47] conversation whether or not yes sir now who authorized you to brief mr bull when you left [25:58] the your employment in the white house i went into mr haldeman and pointed out the necessity for [26:06] briefing mr bull he was going to occupy my office in fact he did occupy my office oh two to three maybe [26:17] even four weeks prior to my uh being sworn in at the federal aviation administration uh mr haldeman [26:25] understood the wisdom or the necessity for that and told me to go ahead now i think the only part of [26:33] this system which is removed from time to time as i think you've testified is that at camp david which [26:40] is removed when foreign dignitaries or heads of state are present and i take that as for national security purposes [26:45] that is true yes sir that is certainly my understanding right now i i'm not sure whether [26:51] you testified to this but you tested the system at one point did you not to see certainly in the [26:56] oval oval office or the eob office that you could pick up uh sound even though it was hardly audible when [27:05] when the sound was made in the room yes what was the result of your test the result was that uh voices [27:16] conversations were picked up very well very clearly even if there was a whisper in the oval office and [27:22] in the executive office building i can't tell you about a whisper uh i just don't know but it it would [27:29] appear that even low tones were picked up well in the cabinet room some voices those who spoke up [27:37] quite loudly could be heard anyone who had the habit of speaking softly uh could not be heard very well [27:44] at all in fact uh you just you could not uh begin to get all of most of the conversations now with [27:53] guard to the telephone taps uh they they were operated were they not by as soon as the uh president uh who [28:00] may have used that used his telephone lifted up his telephone and engaged in a conversation or received [28:05] a conversation on this president's phone uh the recording device began to uh record the telephone [28:12] conversation that's my understanding mr dash but i lack all of the technical knowledge of the telephone [28:19] recording device but so far as you know all telephone calls were also recorded from the president's [28:25] office telephone on his desk in the oval office and his regular office phone in the executive office [28:31] building and the desk telephone in his study at camp david and his telephone in the lincoln sitting [28:38] room those four phones i just one last question if one were therefore to reconstruct [28:43] the conversations at any particular date what would be the best way to reconstruct those conversations [28:49] mr butterfield in the president's oval office well in the obvious manner mr dash to obtain the tape [29:01] and play it i have no further questions mr chairman the uh questions of council and the answers the [29:10] witnesses have been so clear i have no questions mr chairman i have only one brief question mr butterfield [29:17] is my understanding that on an interview this past variety as pointed out by mr dash that you volunteered [29:24] this information in response to a question put by a minority staff about how certain information [29:30] supplied by the white house might have been so exact and some query was made about whether or not mr [29:37] dean might have thought there was a recording device and my understanding is that you at that time said that [29:44] there are recording devices in these offices is that essentially the situation as it transpired in your [29:50] interview on last friday yes that's essentially correct as they led up to the question i said nothing [30:00] when asked the direct question i answered openly and freely with regard to the query concerning mr dean's [30:08] suspicions uh my guess was that that was uh his imagination only i i am sure that the president would [30:16] not lead mr dean to off to the side the president seemed completely unaware of these i'm sure that he [30:24] forgot them from time to time or perhaps for long periods of time point i'm leading up to is this mr [30:31] butterfield you have in fact been very straightforward in your answers in the interview and the interview just [30:36] before this hearing and i think now in your testimony but just so that we're entirely clear on the matter [30:43] you have notified counsel for the white house of your interview and of your testimony what you're going [30:50] to testify here today yes sir i have i and there was there any intimation to you that you that executive [30:57] privilege should be claimed on your part no sir there was not now mr butterfield you're here under [31:07] subpoena you're here at the request of the committee and for my part i think you've been most [31:12] helpful and we thank you for your forthright statement thank you mr chairman i would like to [31:17] make uh one statement before we adjourn unless i think there may be some there may be some other [31:24] questions of some of the members of committee i should be quite brief mr chairman mr butterfield i [31:31] understood you to say that all calls to the white house of whatever nature and character would be [31:38] taped is that an accurate statement into those telephones to and from those telephones i mentioned [31:45] yes sir that's an accurate statement senator a congressman or governor called it was taped [31:51] yes the tape would not discriminate was any warning signal to let them know the conversation would be [31:56] taped again i'm not aware of the technical details i'm told that when devices are on telephones there's [32:04] oftentimes a clicking sound but other than that i would guess that no one would be aware sir no one [32:11] verbally volunteered governor your telephone conversation will be taped no sir or senator [32:19] or congressman or mr private citizen as the case may be no sir now for the visitors that went into the [32:26] white house warned that their conversations with the president would be taped no sir none of them [32:34] none of them had knowledge that their conversations were being taped no sir although i would say one thing [32:41] which i think perhaps should be said at this point when people go to visit the president almost always [32:50] i know of very very few exceptions a staff member sits in on the conversation often takes notes that's [32:58] standard procedure in order to record commitments made by the president at least the thread of the [33:05] substance of the business discussed and that of course does go into the presidential papers now when the [33:15] president left the white house were his conversations with others taped also senator talmadge i didn't [33:22] hear you sir when the president left the premises of the white house were his conversations with other [33:28] people taped no they were not sir you know whether or not the attorney general of the united states approved [33:35] the recording of these telephone and verbal conversations i have no idea sir if any call was made from one [33:45] official in the white house to another one mr haldeman to mr dean and mr dean to mr ehrlichman was that also [33:51] taped not to my knowledge sir i have no knowledge of any other taping devices at all only the conversations [33:58] with the president by telephone and in his presence is that an accurate statement to and from those specific [34:06] and the reason for this tape and so far as you know was solely to serve historical purposes i'm sure of that [34:14] yes sir if uh no staff member was there would a party be told that the conversations were taped no the [34:24] party would not sir under normal prism thank you mr butterfield mr chairman i have no further come no [34:30] further questions i have one or two uh where uh the technical details of this where were the recording [34:38] machines kept do you know at least most of the recording machines were in the basement of the west wing of [34:51] the white house and who was in charge of those the chief of the technical security division of the [35:00] u.s secret service and did the chief or someone under his direction handle the changing of the tapes and [35:07] the putting them on the taking them off yes sir and also the storage yes sir did anybody else handle [35:13] those to your knowledge i am as sure as i know i'm sitting here that no one else would have handled the [35:20] tapes other than uh this individual i mentioned the chief of the technical security division and uh [35:28] the two or three people designated by him what about in key biscayne and san clemente the florida and [35:37] western white houses were there any recording devices there to your knowledge not to my knowledge [35:43] or recollection i do not recall any instructions being given with regard to those locations sir and what [35:49] about on the business phones in those two locations no sir i don't have at least not through me sir don't [35:57] have any other questions just one question sir do you have any information to indicate that this taping [36:08] was practiced in other administrations well in all honesty senator noye i have heard the rumor i could [36:18] not begin to identify the source but i've heard those rumors for for several years and on the occasion [36:28] which i described earlier at the time that i called in the secret service people and gave them this [36:34] particular instruction there was the intimation there was the uh by their gestures or by their [36:43] response to me that they knew how to proceed and from that i would guess that it had been done but [36:51] i am only guessing when i say that i thank you very much amendments to that bill on the alaskan pipeline [37:05] continue to divert the senator's attention from the committee hearing after a brief pause the [37:09] senators resumed their probe into that secret recording apparatus at the white house committee will [37:24] resume business senator wicker was the next uh but i don't beat it in so i'll go to senator montoya [37:38] at this time recognize senator wicker when he comes in thank you mr chairman uh mr butterfield was there [37:48] any uh mechanism available whereby the president could turn off the recording in the oval office or in the [37:57] executive office no sir in other words it was not within the power of the president or anyone working [38:04] under him in those particular offices to turn off this recording no sir but technically speaking one could [38:15] order that the locator light be moved even though the president might be in that position but that [38:21] that would not happen under normal circumstances i know of no occasion on which that happened well did you [38:25] know whether anyone else had the proper mechanism to turn the recording off no sir i'm sure no one did [38:34] and as a matter of fact i doubt if anyone other than the secret service members and i perhaps i explained [38:47] it to mr higby knew how it could be turned off or knew how it worked as a matter of fact so what you're [38:53] saying is that there is no possibility that this any conversation in the oval office or in the executive [38:58] office or in camp in the camp david study room uh could not could be turned off there is no possibility [39:06] of that no sir not from within those offices they would have to instruct me to have the equipment [39:13] moved were you ever instructed no sir i was not did you uh were you able to monitor the conversations [39:21] from your office no sir i could not monitor it uh all you could tell from your office was that [39:27] there were conversations going on and that the machine was working is that right but i couldn't [39:33] even tell that at any given time i only had to rely on the secret service members to see that the tape was [39:42] you know was being used that the equipment was operational that the tapes were changed frequently now is [39:51] there any possibility that the tapes which were collected uh that some of them could be missing [40:01] or could have been destroyed not to my knowledge there shouldn't be the secret service are highly [40:10] trustworthy it was their responsibility to change the tapes and to store and to mark the tapes and to [40:16] store them and who had responsibility for the storage for the removal and the storage of these tapes [40:23] besides yourself well i ultimately but the uh [40:28] the director of the technical security division was given that responsibility by me and he carried [40:36] it out was he the only one besides yourself he and those who worked for him did mr ehrlichman or mr [40:45] haldeman or anyone else who worked for the president have authority to go into this particular room [40:51] where the tapes were stored mr haldeman had authority to do anything in the white house sir and that he was in [40:59] effect the chief of the staff it would be very unlikely for him to do that he entrusted the responsibility [41:08] to me mr ehrlichman to the best of my knowledge and i feel quite certain of this knew nothing about the [41:14] tapes were the tapes properly labeled to indicate what conversations were contained therein nothing about [41:21] the conversations in the secret service and again i say that i trust them implicitly did not listen to [41:30] conversations they too however would check to make sure that that the equipment was picking up sound [41:38] they would make a quick check on that and ensure that it was picking up sound from time to time and i made [41:44] more elaborate or extensive checks on about three occasions and you state that the tapes were primarily [41:52] to record conversations within these particular offices so that we could preserve history for posterity [42:01] yes there really is no question in my mind about that senator montoya that was often on the president's [42:07] mind and as i said he was very conscious of of of our having a good system for collecting uh the things [42:16] which transpire with regard to the affairs of state then why mr butterfield wasn't uh anybody recording [42:24] history at uh key biscayne or at san clemente or at other places uh why was that gap uh why the gap there [42:35] i can't answer that question except that when the president did go to key biscayne into camp david he [42:45] was going principally for the reason of resting and relaxing those are resorts uh the western white [42:52] house admittedly is truly a western white house it's the western extension and i cannot answer your [42:58] question with regard to it it's a gap was there ever any discussion on trying to fill this gap there may [43:07] there may have been i'm very foggy on that there may have been someone may have to your knowledge there [43:11] wasn't not to my specific knowledge i can't say that i uh that's that's i have a very fuzzy [43:18] recollection of uh a possible conversation perhaps we should do it out there but when we were out there [43:25] as you as you may know the schedule was relatively light the president does work he does see people but [43:31] he uses the time to collect his thoughts and and uh lay out plans and that sort of thing so whereas [43:38] there is a gap uh i would not say it's a serious one that's all mr chairman thank you sounds [43:44] like i'm sorry you were out a while ago when we resumed and uh so uh i was calling center montoya [43:51] i'll now record you an opportunity to examine the witness thank you mr chairman just uh mr butterfield [43:59] just three very brief questions as i understand the listening devices in the oval office and the eob [44:10] were activated in two ways they were activated number one by the presence of the president and then number two [44:20] by voice is that correct that's correct you're being properly technical right president had to be [44:26] there if he weren't the locator light would not indicate so that it would not in unless you have [44:35] specific information to refute um my supposition on this matter no one uh other than the president could be [44:56] in one of these rooms and have the conversation uh taped no no one could i was often in the oval office [45:06] with mr bull discussing plans or uh the the cleaning people are in there at night none of that is picked [45:13] up because the indicator light is indicating residents or out or wherever the president might be you know [45:19] it's a it's a two-step system and both steps have to be in place before the taping starts yes sir with [45:24] regard to the oval office and the executive office building office now in so far in so far well let me [45:33] just ask this question would would any other area i'm trying i'm trying to think what the other areas [45:39] were that you mentioned camp david i'm talking about the listening devices not the not the phone the [45:44] cabinet room only sir and the cabinet room in the cabinet room uh would it be possible for conversations [45:52] in the cabinet room to be taped without the president's presence yes by pushing one of the buttons [46:03] under the table the the one on the out on the left on the outboard side was the on button the button [46:10] on the right on the outboard side was the off button also by pushing a button on my telephone i've frankly [46:18] forgotten whether it was one button you pushed on and it lit and you pushed it again and it went out or [46:23] whether there were two buttons but it was an unmarked button on my telephone uh face and it was a large [46:30] telephone with many uh many buttons do you know of any instance when this did occur a a taping of [46:39] conversation held in the cabinet room without the president present no sir as a matter of fact on a [46:49] number of occasions at cabinet meetings and i know this from firsthand knowledge and that i sat in on all [46:55] cabinet meetings except those few executive sessions which were held no more than two or three in the four [47:01] year period the president would leave the cabinet room and the cabinet meeting would continue under [47:09] the uh chairmanship of the vice president perhaps or under the chairmanship of secretary rogers as a [47:17] general rule i would leave too if the president left my concern was the president's concern i was [47:23] uh had no real business remaining if he were not there and i would go back to my office and [47:30] push the off button and we would stop recording it was only for uh the president's business and that again [47:38] supports my earlier uh guess really but i feel certain knowledge that it was purely for historical purposes [47:48] now insofar as the listening devices on the telephones are concerned they however did not need any [47:54] two-step procedure is that correct that's correct sir in other words that uh as soon as one got on the [48:00] telephone that activated the system those specific telephones yes sir and it uh and it could be someone [48:12] other than the president in other words on one of his telephones both parties both parties to the [48:19] conversation uh neither one of them would be the president united states and the conversation would be [48:25] taped that's correct but there again sir i would remind you and you may know this already or i'm sure you've [48:30] guessed it it would be highly unlikely that someone would be sitting in his chair in the lincoln [48:34] sitting room or at his desk in either of those offices or at his study at camp david now why do [48:41] you feel that this system was installed in 1970 if in fact it was installed for historical purposes [48:47] wouldn't it have made a great deal of sense to have this done uh right at the outset of the [48:52] administration it would have made a great deal of sense but frankly uh it was not thought of i'm sure [48:57] that's the reason i'm speaking for other people when i say that but uh i feel certain that was the [49:02] reason a great many things evolved a great many uh systems evolved we had a system uh for preserving [49:12] records of what transpired in the president's meetings these memoranda were called memoranda for [49:20] the president's file and when i spoke to either senator talmage or senator annoya a moment ago about [49:28] or whoever it was i'm not sure about our procedure for having a staff member sit in on all calls on [49:37] the president the president was never alone with anyone who might call on it it might be his old [49:44] duke law school professor but someone would sit in on that meeting and preferably make mental notes of [49:51] what transpired because actually writing notes had a tendency of inhibiting the guest and we didn't want to [49:58] do that but the point i am making is as much was remembered and as much was recorded at least [50:04] mentally as possible during the meetings and afterward uh spit out into a a dictating machine [50:14] and written up in any manner whatsoever we didn't care about punctuation we didn't care about [50:19] grammar we just wanted the substance of what transpired in that meeting for a special file which was [50:26] called memoranda for the president's file and uh we didn't think of that at the outset of the [50:32] administration and i think it was uh i think we were about into the first year it was roughly [50:40] january or february of 1970 when we uh began that procedure so it was just a case of of evolution sir [50:50] now uh in the interview which you had with the staff of this committee which interview i gather took [51:04] place on july the 13th 1973 at 2 15 p.m the interview as reported by this staff concludes with [51:18] and i'd like to have your comments on this matter butterfield stated quote this is all something i [51:26] know the president president did not want revealed but you asked me and i feel it's something you ought [51:31] to know about in your investigations i was told no one was to know about the information i have told you [51:38] end of quote is that a correct quotation i couldn't say that it was correct but there was some reluctance [51:46] on my part to reveal information which i felt could have a number of serious repercussions with [51:54] regard to foreign governments it is very obvious that this could be i can't say that any longer is [52:02] embarrassing to our government and also because i felt it could be something the president would like [52:09] to present at a later time in defense of his own position did anybody indicate to you that you [52:16] shouldn't reveal it no sir uh have you had any conversations with anyone to say quite the contrary [52:24] but i won't say quite the contrary no one has contacted me at all i was telephoned on i forget the date [52:37] but roughly early april it might have been mid-april by mr higby and uh who said not that i needed to be [52:47] reminded to be totally truthful but who said that be sure you tell the truth the words of that effect [52:54] the whole truth and nothing but the truth whenever you are called upon to testify and uh i must say i [53:01] resented slightly his telling me that but i know larry well and i i didn't really and i said of course i [53:07] will so i've had no instructions to the to the contrary i do feel that uh i am lacking in knowledge of [53:20] judicial procedure i do feel that i'd have perhaps done better if i had had counsel i don't i just [53:28] don't know but i would not want to be i might say too that i knew when i was interviewed on friday [53:35] afternoon that those same staff members of yours had interviewed mr haldeman and mr higby i knew that [53:43] they had complete knowledge of this my assumption was that they had been asked the same questions [53:50] precisely and my assumption of course was that they had answered openly and honestly so i i i say [54:01] i was a i was a a bit reluctant only because of the import but obviously not so reluctant that i [54:08] failed to answer well i just want to thank you very much mr butterfield let me say something right [54:13] now you you don't need counsel and let me also say you don't need any of those assumptions which [54:18] you've just given me you've got the greatest thing going for you which is you told the truth [54:22] the committee thank you very much this this committee has taken some testimony to the effect [54:28] that uh one tom charles uh houston was uh appointed to conduct a study in the white and for the white [54:40] house in 19 in the summer of 1970 do you know anything about that that is your own knowledge i'm [54:48] not asking what you read or may read and yes i do sir yeah uh very little and i can remember even less [54:55] but that that preceded the installation of these uh listening devices and telephone equipment didn't [55:01] it oh i i couldn't begin to say senator ervin and i myself would not tie the two together um [55:10] wouldn't the fact that this was all so much under the custody control of the secret service indicate [55:15] that these tapes were not for present uh public dissemination yes it would indicate that yes [55:22] yes i want to thank you very much on behalf of the committee for the yes i ask one or two more [55:28] questions uh i'll read this mr butterfield where are the records that kept that show where the tapes [55:36] can be found for example if you wanted to find one of a certain date is there a file book or a file [55:42] record on these tapes if there is uh senator gurney it is maintained by the technical security division of [55:49] the secret service on those few occasions on which i checked tapes to see if they were working and [55:58] that conversation was coming in clearly i simply called the chief of that office and spoke only to [56:06] him and said send me a tape from the oval office i didn't specify a date i had no you know just send me [56:15] one and i proceeded to to check it and as i say i did that only about three times do you know of your [56:23] own knowledge whether anyone has ever sought to get any of these tapes or has gotten any of these [56:33] tapes other than yourself in the testimony that you have just given this committee no sir if mr [56:41] haldeman wanted to do that he could call the same individual the chief of the technical security division [56:49] and ask him to bring a tape over or whatever and not inform me and of course the secret service [56:55] agent would do that but all of that was channeled through me i feel certain that mr haldeman would [57:01] not have done that and under any normal circumstances should anyone else do it i would have been notified [57:07] and and the secret service would not have responded in fact until i had given my approval now is it is [57:13] your testimony that if anybody had ever asked the secret service for these tapes that they would have [57:19] notified you yes that's correct and that has never occurred is that correct yes only if it was had if [57:26] it had been someone uh senior to me and there were a number of these people but the only one senior to me [57:32] who knew of this was mr haldeman other than the president if they instructed someone not to tell me that [57:38] would be the case but i would not guess that that would happen in any event the person to find out about [57:44] the records and how they were kept and where they are kept and who has had access to these tapes as [57:50] the chief of the technical service of the secret service yes sir thank you he would know the chair [57:59] has received a letter from mr j fred buzzard council for the president dated july the 16th 1973 reading [58:08] as follows dear mr chairman this letter is to confirm the fact stated to your committee today by mr [58:14] alexander butterfield that the president's meetings and conversations in the white house have been [58:20] recorded since the spring of 1971 i am advised that this system which is still in use is similar to [58:26] that employed by the last administration which has been discontinued from 1969 until the spring of 1971 [58:35] a more detailed statement concerning these procedures will be furnished to the committee shortly [58:39] sincerely sign j fred buzzard miss butterfield on behalf of the committee i want to commend you for [58:48] the forthrightness of your testimony and thank you very much thank you sir i will be the first to [58:57] agree with mr buzzard i only guessed at the time that is uh pretty good evidence i think of how fuzzy [59:04] one's recollections can be to be off a full year but if they say the spring of 71 obviously that's been [59:10] checked with the secret service who would have a record and i stand corrected on that point i have [59:19] one closing statement i've really said this at one point in my testimony but it i would feel better [59:26] if i were allowed to say it once again that in accordance with white house instructions and by that [59:32] i mean the telephone call i mentioned to you senator weicker from mr higbee and again i might say not [59:39] that i needed any instructions on the matter of honesty i have freely and willingly appeared for [59:46] interviews and answered all questions put to me not only honestly but openly this matter which we have [1:00:00] discussed here today i think is precisely the substance on which the president plans to present his [1:00:09] defense i believe of course that the president is innocent of any crime or wrongdoing that he is [1:00:16] innocent likewise of any complicity and certainly that is so in the face of the kinds of evidence [1:00:25] and exhibits at least that i know about which have been put before this committee to date i knew when i [1:00:35] was interviewed by your staff members on friday afternoon as i said earlier that measures haldeman and [1:00:42] higbee had preceded me in separate but similar interviews i certainly assumed that each had given an [1:00:50] open and honest answer to that particular question and that i was being asked that same question so as to [1:00:57] corroborate the fact or by that i mean their answers i only hope that i have not by my openness [1:01:04] and by my adherence to all instructions received to date given away something which the president [1:01:10] planned to use at a later date in support of his position that's all i have sir well thank you very much [1:01:20] thank you very much so alexander butterfield has lived up to his advanced billing as a surprise [1:01:34] witness with a vengeance and the committee now can be far more specific in its request for white house [1:01:40] documents and an indication also we've got that the president plans to defend himself public television's [1:01:46] coverage of the senate hearings will continue after a pause for station identification