What Netflix Left Out of ‘Maternal Instinct’ — Taylor Parker Unmasked by Criminal Psychologist

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: she also says that quote she has to piece together parts of other people's real lives to make her feel a little bit more real and that speaks exactly to this idea of the false self that's the false self the false self is an empty self it's a construct that doesn't exist she doesn't [00:00:18] Speaker 2: have the self hello hidden gems hello we are back at our table our dinner table also known as our podcast table now it's um fair at this point yes yes and we are going to cover a wild netflix documentary that just came out it is called maternal instinct it is heartbreaking it follows the story of taylor parker 27 year old taylor parker she is actually on death row now she has been convicted because what she did was in 2020 she faked a pregnancy at 27 years old with her fiance way definitely didn't want to lose wade and once she's nearing 10 months pregnant i guess she realizes gee there's something i need to do here she goes as far as getting a prosthetic you know belly all of this stuff and she then kills reagan hancock and reagan hancock's unborn baby braxlin by attempting a c-section in the home killing 21 years old leaving her uh reagan's other child motherless absolutely heartbreaking her little girl and this was traumatizing to watch uh very traumatizing but we have questions this is one of those documentaries that is difficult to watch but we knew it was coming out we knew we wanted to talk about it i know that you've been actually preparing for this even before the documentary came out because this is a case that we want to talk about today and you have your notes you are ready yep and yeah you do [00:02:07] Speaker 1: have a lot of notes and let me say too that so i knew about this case because when when we first started this podcast many moons ago um it was shortly after we started that i remember this case came out it was so bizarre and so unusual fetal abduction is one of the rarest types of homicide by the way they are really unusual especially fetal abductors of this nature and so where where there's actually a procedure performed on the the mother [00:02:41] Speaker 2: googling c-sections how to do a c-section one of her mini google search results [00:02:48] Speaker 1: so the i i remember this case fairly well because there was a moment when i had talked to you about possibly covering it and i thought remember we were immersed in another case and it just it was overwhelming but i i remember the case and i remember some of the details so there are elements of this case that were not discussed in the documentary that we'll be talking about and i think that that will give us a fuller picture of what happened but it is truly it's truly a sad case i mean i was i was very emotional i was surprisingly emotional during parts of this documentary yeah yeah [00:03:27] Speaker 2: um just the way it happened and reagan's family the way they painted that for me it was yeah really sad [00:03:35] Speaker 1: reagan's family and and kinley the three who was three-year-old she was a three-year-old at the time of the of the murders hiding in the bedroom hiding in the bedroom but but apparently she she certainly heard what was going on but there was there was some speculation that she actually came out at one point and so just that situation is so heartbreaking and i just can't even imagine that type of moment for any child i mean thankfully she's alive but still and reagan's sister and parents all saying that she [00:04:13] Speaker 2: was the best mother and that she was just born to be a mother and so excited to have her second little [00:04:19] Speaker 1: girl there were sisters there were some definitely some very emotional moments during this documentary and and just in following this case in general so it's a case that i wanted to talk about for a while and we just haven't had the opportunity and so when this documentary dropped i thought it would be a natural opportunity to to think about it and we both watched it yesterday separately so that we didn't [00:04:46] Speaker 2: so i haven't talked to you about it yeah i think we're doing that again we actually surprised some people by some of our conversation in the last documentary that we discussed by the way okay and uh some people thought did you guys rehearse this that i was maybe being a bit of a pushing you but um no that's actually how our conversation sometimes we we we when we cover cases on our show like this from [00:05:12] Speaker 1: documentaries our our preference is to watch them separately or watch them at separate times so that we don't know what we're going to say that there's which is hard because sometimes we like [00:05:21] Speaker 2: to watch them together although he pauses way too much these notes i'm like sometimes i'm like you [00:05:26] Speaker 1: know i just want to sit with you know and watch yeah there's no there's where you're like pausing and taking notes so so i don't mind that either there's no watching there's no watching true crime documents for entertainment for me it's it's unfortunately because of what i do i think it's always going to be work to some degree or at least at least it's one of my psychologist friends used to joke all the time with me and say do you ever take a moment not to think about true crime do you do you do you do you eat breathe and sleep true crime you know because that's that's the only thing that seems to be on your mind i'm like well i'm not really it's pretty it's pretty all-consuming and we do have a life and a child so the answer is that yes that's not the only thing that occupies my mind but um but i do have a passion for true crime and for figuring out motivations behind crimes like this so so with that should we dive in do you feel like you've given us enough background i think i've [00:06:33] Speaker 2: given enough background that was another request we had uh to make sure that we give that background before we start talking because i think we always come on and aren't sure how much to say right away because we know that there are going to be spoiler alerts but i think at this point people understand that we are going to be covering if you see the title to this a netflix documentary so clearly there [00:06:55] Speaker 1: will be spoilers but we hope you'll stay with us so people have asked me about this this crime by the way over the years and people are just baffled by this crime i think um by the way the the correct terminology for this type of crime is in the research is it's referred to as fetal abduction by maternal evisceration so that that's a mouthful but that's that's how researchers refer to this type of crime there's different types of fetal abduction this one happens to be by you know use as you said c-section by pulling the child out that's maternal evisceration so so i think one thing to begin with is just to say that fetal abduction by maternal evisceration is very very rare they're extremely rare and so the research on this type of crime is it's really hard to reach any conclusions because there's just not a lot of data there's not a lot you know if you want to do research the more data you have the more the more solid your conclusions are going to be and there's just not that much data so between 1987 and 2011 there's only been 15 completed cases so 15 completed non-family cases when you say completed you mean cases where the baby was removed and there was a death there was a homicide okay and where the where the where the offender the perpetrator was not a family member so they wouldn't if it was a family member that presents a little bit of a different situation so in these cases typically they're strangers so over a period of over 20 years you have 15 of these so you have less less than one per year and if you think about the millions of people in this country right that's there's a very very small [00:08:49] Speaker 2: number and so we don't see a lot of these crimes there should be zero there should be zero but yeah right [00:08:56] Speaker 1: but one a year wow there should less than one less so fewer than one fewer than one so i think i want to start with that because whatever what i'm going to talk about is going to be speculative i will base some of this on research research that we have but we have such there's so few cases here that you know to generalize or direct conclusions about what's going on here would be very difficult so what i'm going to have to do is i'm going to have to look more broadly at say personality disorders and violence or personality disorders and certain elements of say childhood that lead to personality disorders that sort of thing yeah and and so i'm going to look more broadly at the bigger picture and i'm not gonna i'm these elements may or may not apply to taylor parker so i'm not going to say anything definitively about taylor parker because i really can't because again the data set is so small i will talk about some of those findings but and i think that'll help us figure this out to some degree but i want to start with there's really a couple of interesting things going on here i think um i want to start with during the because this was in texas when there's a conviction they have a death penalty phase to the trial and during that phase of the trial the prosecutor led in his opening statements by referring to taylor parker as the following things so he he said she's a liar a con artist an actress and a fraud and he would prove that she was all of those things and therefore the crime was premeditated it wasn't impulsive that she had planned this out and those are the elements that the prosecutor really saw as as being crucial to understanding this crime and understanding her that everything about her is false everything about her is deception [00:11:03] Speaker 2: and so everything everything everything everything to me that was the most shocking thing i'll just say this because i did understand the case i was getting into and i understood what happened but i did not understand all those little details and everything when you say every when we say everything [00:11:22] Speaker 1: is deception everything everything everything everything almost everything that comes out of her mouth is a [00:11:29] Speaker 2: lie or texts or yeah i mean and so [00:11:35] Speaker 1: so i think when i think about somebody who is lying about everything to the core the first thing i think about is this idea of there's a british psychoanalyst i've talked about him a lot he's someone i really respect uh d.w winnicott and he's a pioneer in our field he's written some some brilliant articles but one of the articles he wrote was in 1960 he wrote a paper called ego distortion in terms of true and false self the interesting thing about this article is that winnicott was really one of the first psychoanalysts to talk about after freud to talk about this idea of the true and the false self and while psychologists now i think we see the self as much more complex than this binary choice between whether you're true or false self there's there's it's it's much more complex than that there's this there's not an all true self or an all false self but the basic distinction i think is important it still holds up and the basic distinction is that you can create a false self with a child by essentially placing the the caregiver's demands on the child and not allowing that child to be who they could be in other words we've talked about this there's there's something called mirroring and the idea of mirroring is that the parent part of the parent's job if you want to raise a healthy child is to mirror or reflect back to that child emotions thoughts ideas opinions right it's to it's to have an interaction with that child that's not solely based upon your own needs and your own desires and your own perceptions of the world it's in other words the parent's job isn't necessarily to indoctrinate that child right and it's it's not to dismiss that child [00:13:35] Speaker 2: one thing that i have learned is that taking care of yourself isn't just about feeling good today it is about making choices that support your health years down the road and that is one of the reasons i was drawn to one skin what makes them different is that they were not built around beauty trends or marketing claims the company was founded by longevity researchers who wanted to understand why skin ages in the first place and that research led to their propriety oson peptide which is designed to target a key driver of visible skin aging at the source i have been using one skin for a while now and what i notice most is that my skin feels healthier overall it's smoother it's more hydrated and it feels stronger over time dr john uses it too he has become a big fan i also love that it's backed by real science and it fits easily into a simple routine born from over a decade of longevity research one skin's os o1 peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age and for a limited time try one skin with 15 off using code hidden at one skin dot co slash hidden that's 15 off at one skin o n e s k i n dot co that's co with code hidden and after you purchase they will ask where you heard about them and please support our show and tell them that [00:15:05] Speaker 1: that's what we're going to do for example if a child says dad i'm feeling really sad the way i might mirror something back to that child is i hear what you're saying that you feel really sad tell me what's going on in other words chat dpt it's like chat dpt yeah chat dpt is probably more empathic than a lot of people but um but these days very valid but but okay but so yeah i mean chat dpt actually does therapy with a [00:15:45] Speaker 2: lot of people these days by the way so maybe though because we they didn't learn mirroring so keep going [00:15:49] Speaker 1: right i don't know that chat dpt is going to be the best at marrying but this idea of marrying comes into play because in this interaction between parent and child the question is does the parent remain open enough to the child's wishes emotions feelings behaviors right their their view of the world is that is the parent acknowledging all of that in a way that the child can then become more spontaneous and become aware of their emotions right that's how you develop what when a car would so call a true self is you're letting that child not only have not not only you're open to that child's complete experiences of the world but you're acknowledging them and you're letting the child figure that out for themselves yeah okay if you're not mirroring back to that child those elements of the child's upbringing then and you're marrying back say for example let's say i'm trying to indoctrinate that child so let's say when you say indoctrinate you mean i'm trying to force my opinions beliefs and my i'm let's let's use the example of sadness the child comes up to me and says dad i'm really i'm feeling very sad and let's say i'm a father that's not comfortable with sadness and myself yeah so maybe in that circumstance my response to the child is man up i don't want to hear anything about sadness you need to be tough yeah that would be an example of a situation where a parent might start creating a false self in that child because the child wants to talk about their sadness they want to experience it and we know that sadness is a big part of the human it's real experience it's real man yeah so by if if i'm responding to the child and saying i don't want to hear about your sadness be tough man up get over it then what i'm doing is i'm starting to negate a very important part of that child's experience and not only am i not allowing that child to experience sadness but now i'm setting the stage for that child not to grieve so let's say that that let's say in that family the the family dog passes away within a few days of me saying that to the child that child is not going to come to me and say dad i'm feeling sad yeah the dog will pass away and even though the dog's beloved in this family i've set the stage for a situation where that that child will will not be comfortable expressing sadness anymore okay and the child will think i need to be a man and be tough for dad and not express my sadness even though the child's feeling sad [00:18:31] Speaker 2: so there is a story i'll just say this really quickly when our our son went to a dentist appointment when he was about four he said he said i'm scared and the dentist said don't be scared very sweet very sweet thing for a dentist to say don't be scared but our son looked right at him and said it's okay to be scared so clearly he did i remember that was a really proud parenting moment and it [00:18:56] Speaker 1: really threw the dentist off he's like oh okay he's like who are your parents but he's like are your parents are your parents actually marrying stuff back to you that's that's unthinkable it was really funny so this so we get this idea of the true and the false self from winnicott and and it's if you want to understand this is how i always like to start a lot of our shows if you want to understand taylor parker you need to understand this concept of the true and the false self specifically the false self because there's a progression so it starts with marrying it starts with this process of right you're trying to raise a child you're trying to raise it hopefully a healthy child that has the capacity maybe to experience emotions to experience behaviors right that are going to be acceptable or or a part of that child's upbringing and in their sense of self and so this story this taylor parker story is about a false self that largely becomes dependent upon performance so you have this progression so you have a child with what's let's call them authentic needs which sadness would be an authentic need so you have a child that's having these experiences of the world and then the parent part of the parent's job is to interact with the child in a healthy way to acknowledge those needs but if you don't acknowledge those needs so sometimes the word therapists will use clinicians will use is attunement are you attuned to the child it's not just mirroring it's also being in touch can you're finding some degree of attune of emotional attunement with the child and if you are then the child feels validated the child feels accepted and if you're not so think about this right if you're not attuned to that child's needs then you're negating that experience and what happens over time if you do that enough is you start creating a sense of shame in the child yeah and that's where shame comes into this is where shame starts becoming associated with the false self because if you negate that child's experience long enough and maybe not even long it could just be one time if i'm very punitive if my child comes to me and says dad i'm feeling sad and i say shut up i don't want to hear about it man up and be tough it's probably going to only take one time for me to do that for that child to shut down completely so the next time that child feels sadness not only will that child not come to me but the child if the child if let's go back to the example of losing the dog let's say the dog passes away the child feels sad because naturally that that's a natural response to losing a beloved dog in the family so now when the child experiences that sadness the the natural response is going to be something like shame something like i'm feeling sad dad doesn't like that something must be wrong with me okay i need to be a man so this is where shame comes into the equation i'm oversimplifying this because this is a process that's going to happen over time and it's probably not going to happen it could if there's a traumatic experience it could happen from one instance but for the most part this is an experience that's that's going to occur over time so you have this so if we're if we're thinking about this process you have this process of the child has a need an authentic need there's a misattunement to the child's needs there's shame that starts developing the child feels defective and so what happens is the child will naturally start developing adapting the child will start developing defenses to that the child will have to defend against those feelings because the child's experiences are being negated and dismissed okay and so are you saying this is what happened to taylor parker this is the process i think that yes that would apply to taylor parker right so the problem with taylor parker is i don't we don't know a lot about her childhood that was an interesting actually [00:23:40] Speaker 2: part of the documentary because they brought in people to share about her childhood including her friends but it really we only got kind of like her teenage years and then the mother shows up as i'm sure they asked her mother but she clearly declined her mother kind of appears she doesn't appear in the documentary but she becomes a figure when somebody finally talks to the mother and says taylor isn't who she says she is but we don't know really anything about her i'm i'm sure they asked her to interview but do you think that's what she said no one in taylor parker's family was in this documentary yeah right we just there there's a real a lot it left a lot of mystery but also it answered a little bit too right when when you don't have any family or any history to speak of it kind of says something [00:24:32] Speaker 1: says a lot but but it does leave it does mean that her childhood is a bit of an enigma we can work backwards we're gonna we're gonna i'm gonna be talking about some things from her childhood that could give us some clues but a lot of times the cases we cover we have a lot more clues we'll have instances of trauma from childhood we'll have instances of abuse we don't have that [00:24:53] Speaker 2: here necessarily well they talked about low self-esteem they did talk about her weight yeah and that she had surgery weight loss surgery and lost a lot of weight and sort of enjoyed the attention once she was able to feel i think prettier and present herself um so i imagine i think i imagine and speculate that there was some low self-esteem it makes me wonder if people were kind to her growing up [00:25:26] Speaker 1: we'll be talking about that in a minute i think that's part of this equation i'm jumping ahead you're jumping ahead you're right i do that i do that okay well i jump around i just yeah okay keep going so we have we have this process so i'm at the point now where right you you you have this misattunement or this misalignment in terms of how the parent is reacting to the child's needs for authenticity and by the way when i talk about that i mean elements of the child's life that might be uncomfortable not just so not just sadness but things like shame fears of abandonment feelings of emptiness these deeper existential things that all children feel that but often feel difficult to express feeling ordinary feeling helpless feeling dependent feeling envious feeling jealousy these are all these are all part of this equation feeling anger feeling rage fears of being unlovable these are all normal parts of the human condition that that in a perfect world children are allowed to express and the parent is capable of acknowledging but when the parent doesn't right then you have this situation where the child oftentimes feels defective or they feel they feel shame they feel fear perhaps and experiencing any of those elements i talked about vulnerability would be another big one if a child feels vulnerable is the parent able to acknowledge that so when a parent can't acknowledge that you get you get these respo you get a child has to adapt to able to be able to cope with those emotions so that's you get right that's where defense mechanisms come into play and what happens is the child because the child's not able to start really experiencing what a true self would be like or an authentic self would be like the child starts experimenting with various ways to feel normal and to because these experiences are negated the child has to cope the child's trying to find ways to exist in the world even though this big part of their experience is negated so there's a lot of ways they could do that but one of the ways that children test the boundaries of feeling negated is by lying and so you'll see children test the boundaries of what's possible oftentimes by engaging in deception and lies and they'll they will see how far they can go with it this is where pathological [00:28:15] Speaker 2: lying just sort of starts to take root is what this is right this is where this is where [00:28:20] Speaker 1: this is where lying enters the equation in terms of lying really interesting the the psychology behind lying becomes lying becomes okay the simplest way to put this is to say that lying becomes the way to [00:28:36] Speaker 2: regulate a fragile self lying okay lying becomes the way wait hold on so lying becomes lying becomes a defensive [00:28:47] Speaker 1: maneuver in order to protect a fragile self a false self that is not able to acknowledge these experiences of vulnerability and the things i just talked about lying becomes a way to protect that your fragile self the fragile essentially it becomes it becomes a defense against the fragility of the self vulnerability [00:29:09] Speaker 2: shame all of the above all of the above a way to protect against okay so it becomes a way to transform [00:29:20] Speaker 1: basically it becomes a way to transform certain unbearable emotions or experiences into a reality that's more survivable that they're able to cope with better so if we go back to my simple example about the dog passing away and the child feels sad and then the child knows they can't express that they're experiencing grief they can't express it it's not being acknowledged the children feel the child feels defective or the child experiences some shame around that the child may have to in order to cope with that situation the child may start creating fabricating and creating stories to make them feel better okay such as well the dog for example well i didn't really love the dog anyway because the dog bit me all the time and let's just say let's just say that's false the dog let's say the dog was wonderful and the child loved the dog right the child the child is creating this alternative reality interesting lying about it creating this alternative reality in order to regulate their emotions and their shame and their fragility interesting and so what happens is the child i'm having a lot of aha moments here this goes this goes back to the what the prosecutor said about a child about taylor carter being a liar a con artist an actress and a fraud let's fraud let's let's isolate the actress part so what happens when you have these steps and the child starts lying is it becomes a child in some way starts acting because they know their real experience should be sadness yeah but now they're creating this this other narrative that negates sadness and it presents this fiction they're creating about the dog being cruel so that they can cope with their sadness it's false but what's important about it is it becomes performative and i think one of the key takeaways from from looking at this particular situation is that one thing we know one thing i can say definitively about taylor parker is that almost everything she's doing is a performance yeah she's everything she's performing illness she's performing medical conditions she's performing wealth how about oh yeah the performing of the wealth how about she's performing pregnancy she's performing victimhood let me [00:32:00] Speaker 2: keep going well i i just okay yeah performing her maternity pictures where she writes some photographers is what i really want is laying with my belly up in the air on a horse i'm like how about just like if you're like faking a pregnancy like it's just bold enough to be like hey i want for you know maybe some maternity pictures like even that's mind blowing i mean faking your pregnancy is mind blowing yeah faking your pregnancy so far that you're like let's go get maternity pictures is mind blowing going so far as to doing that and saying like i just want talk about performative i want my belly in the air on a horse and this is i mean that's when you're like okay okay you know wow this episode is brought to you by iq bar our exclusive snack hydration and coffee sponsor iq protein bars iq hydration mixes and iq joe mushroom coffees they are delicious they're low sugar brain and body fuel that i love to win my day one thing that i have learned from years of road trips filming days weekends at soccer tournaments is that if you don't bring snacks i'm going 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feel better the dog bit me the dog bit me i don't like the dog the child's performing the child's creating this elaborate fantasy in this fiction in order to feel better about the dog so if a friend says let's say a friend says to that child hey i feel so bad your dog died the child will say oh don't feel bad the dog used to bite me all the time i hate that dog that's a that's so that's a really simple version of what's going on with taylor parker to cover fragility of self shame vulnerability so you get emotions you get these lies right you get these lies and these fictions and these fantasies that are all performative and here's what happens i'm listening the more you do this and this is where i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna invoke our the name of our podcast uh this is where i'm gonna say hidden i get to say i never i never get to say hidden what do you it's our name for a reason it's our name for a reason this is where the true self and in terms of winnicott winnicott's definition the true self that that that needs to feel vulnerable and sad and all those normal experiences i talked about this is where the true self becomes hidden the child starts hiding the true self and the true self either becomes lost or buried negated or erased and in the case of taylor parker i don't think there's a true self anywhere in sight i don't think anywhere there's no true self [00:36:02] Speaker 2: zero true self there's no true self i think that's what's most fascinating because isn't there like some true self and some people like i'm like just like a little bit like in there you're like absolutely nothing nothing everything is a lie you mean like everything everything's a performance everything's [00:36:19] Speaker 1: a lie and so the true self becomes buried i'm going to use the term hidden because that's that's my favorite word so yeah the the the true self is hidden it's it's hiding it's it's in some cases i think with her it becomes erased and if the true self becomes negated and erased then that person becomes utterly dependent upon this fiction this false self and that's what you have here and not only do you have that but there's another step here that's equally important and that is because the person knows that they're operating from this false self they're terrified of being exposed they're terrified of their lives becoming exposed because that would mean that the very basis of their identity which they don't know anyway but whatever their self is would become even more fragmented it would become even more fragmented than it is i don't know if that's possible with taylor parker [00:37:25] Speaker 2: by the way but you're thinking about a lot of crimes and a lot of criminals and taylor parker but this is fascinating and so [00:37:38] Speaker 1: you have this absolute fear of feeling shame you have this absolute fear of being exposed as a fraud being exposed as a con artist being exposed as a liar one thing she says near the end of this documentary and again spoiler alerts here we're gonna talk about this documentary so if you haven't seen it go watch it but we are talking about this documentary but wade [00:38:05] Speaker 2: fiance wade taylor parker's fiance wade the supposed father of the of the prosthetic belly yeah he he [00:38:17] Speaker 1: he confronts her this is going to be an important part of the story later he confronts her a couple of days or a day before the crime day before the murder and she says something she basically says something to him like i'm not going to be called a liar right like she knows projection she knows she's a liar project well no i that's a big debate by the way i don't does she know she's a liar i mean we'll get into that she has no sense of self i don't know [00:38:48] Speaker 2: she knows what does she know she's a liar yeah i don't know i asked actually a question for me [00:38:52] Speaker 1: does you know lori valo know she's right it's the same dynamic i think that there's there's distinctions there in the sense that lori ballo is was diagnosed as having delusional disorder whereas taylor parker at least according to the forensic people in the case did not diagnose her with delusional disorder so that's a big distinction but the the point is that all of this gets set in motion and then all of it becomes a vicious cycle all of it you go through this cycle over and over again because the fear of being exposed then leads to more shame which leads to more feeling defective which leads to more defensive maneuvers which leads to more lies which you know it it it becomes it becomes an unending cycle this is really hard to break and they can't stop it they the only way you can stop it yeah there is a way to stop it you know how you stop it [00:40:00] Speaker 2: you tell the truth they can't do that though i know but but if you don't have a sense of self [00:40:05] Speaker 1: i know so this is where so this is the point where i want to interject my main literary metaphor okay here we go the way to stop it is to become pinocchio this is this is and when i say pinocchio i'm not talking about the disney version [00:40:24] Speaker 2: well you know taylor parker was her stomach that kept growing on her nose [00:40:28] Speaker 1: exactly but it's the same it's the same dynamic it's the same idea and it's got bigger and bigger and bigger carlo collati in 1881 he writes the story of pinocchio and by the way the original story of pinocchio is way more interesting and darker than the disney version so i'm referring to the 1881 version the story of pinocchio is in essence i'm i'm gonna we're not going to talk about pinocchio on too much depth there but the story of pinocchio is essentially a story about growing up so so pinocchio was a wooden doll created by his his father geppetto if you can say i don't know if you don't he becomes a boy eventually so he's wood so i guess you can't i guess you don't really [00:41:18] Speaker 2: have a father if you're wood no but that's that's his father yeah the puppet maker becomes his puppet maker is his father he wanted a little boy and [00:41:34] Speaker 1: the the way pinocchio transforms is essentially by growing up and taking responsibility for his actions and so he's kind of this his nose gets longer and longer that's so the nose the nose becomes a physical manifestation of his line it grows longer every time a whale appears somewhere yes does is there like a whale it's like yeah but that's okay we're skipping the whale yeah that's all i remember there's also a sea monster there's like toys that come to life it's a wonder it's a great story i was actually going to reread it for this episode yeah and we don't we don't have time i didn't have time yeah so but but trust me that the metaphor pinocchio trust you is applicable um the nose grows with each lie the but one of the so the nose becomes a metaphor for the self that's becoming more deformed in other words one of the things about pinocchio is that lying harms the self yeah lying you because you're digging this false because you're you're amplifying this false self in a way you're really deforming yourself you're really distorting any version of the true self that might be left you're starting to negate it and you're really you're really starting to bury that and deny it and the further you get away from that the harder it's going to be to get it back so with pinocchio right the more the more pinocchio tries to control his environment and the more he tries to control appearances the more visibly out of control he becomes the worse it gets the worse it the worse it gets and and so you have you have a similar dynamic it's also a snowball effect you have a similar dynamic with taylor parker in the sense that she's creating these lies about her wealth about her her physical her medical issues she has ms she has can't brain cancer like it just goes on and [00:43:39] Speaker 2: on i don't even know if we have time so many lies the the money the the finances but going as far this was one moment that was just surprising to me this is i think a question with how much does she know how much is a lie she she creates this fiction about her wealth and goes out and buys her mother-in-law a car gives her mother-in-law the car yeah and then three weeks later it's repossessed because no one's paid a dime on it right and that's it nobody talks about it but my point is like there was almost a part of me that wondered that was a great example did she know that that was going to happen did she know that three weeks later the car would be repossessed or did she somehow think that like what or you know was she taking pictures of it with a bow for [00:44:29] Speaker 1: social media knowing it would be repossessed or i think that's an interesting part of this story is is if you have a pathological logical liar and you know they're lying all the time then why do you keep buying [00:44:41] Speaker 2: their lies well i mean like there's a gullibility well yeah that was part of it you know wade wanted to think the best of her people were starting to figure it out everyone wanted to think the best [00:44:51] Speaker 1: wade right wade we'll get to some things wade said later i don't want to i don't want to kind of i don't want to say what he's i don't want to spoil too much with wade because there's some things he said that are going to be absolutely critical to this analysis but wade wants to believe her he does wade wants to think that i think a lot because there's there's two choices in front of you [00:45:21] Speaker 2: you either have a pregnant fiance or or it is the absolute worst case scenario and you are living with you know a sociopath or what you feel like is right i think that's oftentimes how crimes sort of happen too is i feel like it's always hindsight when you have somebody and you think it just can't be that bad right the the other option is so horrific to think about you have there's a social [00:45:53] Speaker 1: contract we we all have an implicit social contract which basically says that human beings should be trustworthy that human beings operate in good faith that human beings tell the truth if we didn't have that social contract society would collapse instantly if everybody was lying to everyone about everything i mean that's the reason we have the law that's the reason we have a legal system is because contracts get broken and they have to be enforced in some judicial way because human beings aren't always trustworthy but for the most part most of society operates with the assumption that people even if they're lying the assumption is that people to some degree are trustworthy otherwise you can't do [00:46:35] Speaker 2: business with people i know and when you're looking at someone face to face and not only that but when you're living with them and they're carrying your child and you fell in love with them and they're your fiance uh yeah i don't think you're going to go to she's faking this entire thing you're you'd rather stretch to like no her mother you know is wicked and took her money away and you know well that that's [00:46:59] Speaker 1: no so that's a this is actually a really important part of the story which is that wade becomes one of the central vehicles for her her line apparatus that wade becomes both the emotional catalyst and the audience for her performance so in other words and to put it simply she's using him she's manipulating him and she's manipulating his sense of of operating in good faith and believing her and his his dependency i think wade really i mean he doesn't totally trust her but he really wants this to work to some degree yeah absolutely and so she's she's really taking advantage of that she's really manipulating i mean that's what all liars do they play on people's gullibility they play on people's trustworthiness [00:48:01] Speaker 2: and so clearly she's doing this their humanness let's even call it what it is just their belief in [00:48:09] Speaker 1: you know being human exactly so that the the the weight part i think is really important because there's another part of that too that the the when i say that wade's the emotional catalyst what i mean by that too is that some of taylor's friends talk a lot about the fact that she's pers she's constantly worried about the fact that he's going to leave she's afraid that he's having affairs she's [00:48:48] Speaker 2: she's just petrified of abandonment afraid of abandonment afraid of abandonment right something we've talked a lot about yeah when it comes to criminals yeah a fear of abandonment also a rejection [00:49:02] Speaker 1: absolutely that's a part of this equation for sure um but but let's in terms of i shouldn't say just a [00:49:08] Speaker 2: fear of i i criminals we talk about crime and criminals thus i said that but it's a fear of people who also don't commit crimes too i just mean in the criminals we talk about [00:49:22] Speaker 1: and so you see it it's it's she's constantly worried about the fact that he's cheating that he's going to leave that perhaps he doesn't love her these are things that are always on her mind and that that naturally leads into the pregnancy so she's trying to get wade to stay she initially tries to get him to stay through money through wealth that's where the whole macan point estate that's worth 4.7 million dollars almost 5 million dollars she dangles this carrot like hey wade i know you've wanted this your whole life and not only by the way speaking about performances how about the the she knows this guy she she meets wade in october and she now she's she tells him within like weeks that she's going to buy this property because she's an oil heiress heiress from her grandparents so they they in in in december of 2020 she gets the whole family together and they have that you remember in the documentary they they film her it's performing performing [00:50:30] Speaker 2: for no reason by the way and let's be honest nobody could give a during that moment it was [00:50:37] Speaker 1: well i think they're all kind of nobody cared i think the families they're all they're all i think they're all take i think they're all stunned by the fact that like here's wade about to get supposedly in their minds i about to get a five million dollar property well everyone's but nobody's showing that [00:50:53] Speaker 2: on their faces they're all well they're all stunned what do you mean i stunned by her performance or [00:50:58] Speaker 1: stunned by the whole situation it's all so bizarre like i mean she's like we're gonna i think there's [00:51:03] Speaker 2: a part of them like chestnuts or what was it like they're gonna farm pecans yeah it's pecan point i think is the name of oh pecan point and yeah but she was yes they they filmed it and her announcement [00:51:16] Speaker 1: she's reading it and everyone's just sitting there like this right but it's still it still goes back to that performance she can't just she can't just buy the property she can't just brought by the property she never did because she didn't have money right she didn't have the money but she can't buy the property and just you know like a normal person would buy the property and they'd move in and like [00:51:35] Speaker 2: family would know yeah they she wouldn't have this actually never let anybody know for the most part you'd probably be like let's just kind of quietly do this and not make a big deal out of it yeah she's like hold my beer i'm gonna i'm gonna let them all know that i'm buying this even though i'm [00:51:52] Speaker 1: not right so she they have this big production within two months of meeting about this property that she's buying that she can't buy because she doesn't have the money because it's all a lie [00:52:00] Speaker 2: it's all a fantasy but you're right it's also keeping way there it's also keeping way there right absolutely keeping him there i i have heard this you know this story with people that lie before this independent wealth thing you know right i'm wealthy and people yeah it's fascinating [00:52:20] Speaker 1: yeah and so so yeah so you have you have this first attempt with the wealth and again this is where way this is where wade becomes this vehicle through which she she engaged she all of her machinations become enacted through wade so wade by the way i mean wade seems like a really nice guy and a hard worker very hard very hard worker nice guy you know wade is just sort of like caught in the middle of this hurricane right yeah [00:52:52] Speaker 2: he doesn't even know what happened he doesn't even know he starts dating this this woman all of a sudden he's uh it's his fiancee and she's gonna have his baby and i think he's like how did this [00:53:03] Speaker 1: happen wade says at the beginning of the documentary wade says that he he so they met at a rodeo in august of 2019 and then i think like by september she's dangling this property and then he said he just says innocently he's like i thought she was pretty and i thought we could just go to dinner and talk right he basically says something like that and now and then it becomes all of them then it becomes like pecan point and then a couple months after that when it becomes clear she's not going to buy [00:53:31] Speaker 2: this property now she becomes pregnant and you're right that is about a fear of rejection and abandonment and him leaving right he won't leave me if i'm about to buy this five million dollar property and when she realizes she can't carry that lie on forever she becomes pregnant right she becomes [00:53:47] Speaker 1: pregnant that's her next step her next step her next ploy her next chest move right so and and [00:53:55] Speaker 2: she can maybe dangle that one for a little bit longer nine months or ten months right she can keep [00:54:00] Speaker 1: she can keep that one going for yeah exactly because eventually the banks are going to figure out pretty quickly that you know most people don't have five million dollars she can only create so many you [00:54:09] Speaker 2: know um and not only cell numbers and fake personas like i mean she was she was faking voices and ai oh my [00:54:16] Speaker 1: gosh uh you know she had fake social media accounts she had fake emails she had fake she used a voice numbers a voice uh transformation app i mean it was just unbelievable it also shows you how far these [00:54:30] Speaker 2: people that do want to lie and create a fake persona can go yeah absolutely it is it is scary you know [00:54:37] Speaker 1: what's real and what's not these days absolutely and i so i think this might be an interesting place to kind of interject with people have asked me specifically grayson has asked me many times do you think she has a personality disorder [00:55:00] Speaker 3: and yes specifically i kept in this morning saying you can't diagnose but i'm casting my vote can't wait to hear what you might think oh and what was your vote i said sociopath i don't know that was just me and my chat tpt personality disorders and traits [00:55:23] Speaker 2: i think no i definitely i mean i mean there's like at least one personality disorder if not more i mean i'm gonna speculate i haven't asked him yet i'm gonna speculate um yeah you're probably right but like i think well yeah like definitely like a ton of anti-social qualities like as you said i don't even know if there is a self so i would say anti-social but then on top of that like maybe borderliney [00:55:44] Speaker 1: well guess what guess what i don't have to answer the question because because during the during the mitigation part of this during the death penalty part of the trial they brought it up they brought in experts and i'm going to defer i'm going to i don't have to diagnose because i have people have people do it for me forensic psychologist darker michael orambula arambula a-r-a-m-b-u-l-a he testified he testified in tanner horners oh he testified in tanner [00:56:12] Speaker 2: horners also like oh he must be their go-to guy so i'm going to read you what i'm going to read you [00:56:19] Speaker 1: what he said shout out to dr arambula arambula shout out to dr randula here's what he said on the stand quote i was looking for some kind of mental deterioration that would count for that meaning the murder but instead i saw that she stuck to her plan and there was no remorse afterwards in this case there is nothing regarding any mental illness and nothing regarding intoxication and this parker falls in the category of fetal abductors which are rare but fall into a class of women who do not have mental illness the murders are planned they're premeditated they have plans for after unquote and then he went on to say that he believes she did have or does have she does have a borderline personality disorder i just thought her i just heard personality disorder okay keep going she has borderline he believed that she had borderline personality disorder and or other personality disorders in cluster b so arambula says number one it's premeditated no mental illness which by the way i think it depends on what he means by mental illness in turn you know there's different because i'm not diagnosing here but it would be hard for me to believe that she hasn't had some struggles over the years with maybe major depression yeah depression anxiety or anxiety right i agree if [00:57:52] Speaker 2: you're afraid that somebody is going to leave you that's anxiety right if you're afraid of abandonment and if you have no sense of self that would certainly lead to depression if you [00:58:02] Speaker 1: right if you have low self-esteem if if you're if you if you're if you have a very fragile self [00:58:07] Speaker 2: yeah i think of that too so i don't know what he means by no i think no mental illness [00:58:12] Speaker 1: is he referring to like schizophrenia yeah he's probably talking about sky psychosis schizophrenia yeah but he does suggest he does say that he thinks she has borderline personality disorder and then the defense brought in a psychiatrist a forensic psychiatrist his name is dr gribbon g-r-i-p-o-n he saw taylor he interviewed taylor twice for a total of five hours when she was in jail he described her as quote a pathological liar and he said that she had a mix of psychological psychiatric disorders including narcissism okay borderline personality disorder and antisocial and histrionic in other words oh he basically says she has everything in cluster b she's got the whole [00:59:00] Speaker 2: cluster that is that's that's all of cluster b that is everything narcissism histrionic borderline [00:59:07] Speaker 1: antisocial wow he also said that one of her main motivations for being a pathological liar so i've [00:59:17] Speaker 2: explained it a little differently just like a walking cluster b she is she's like dsm yeah she should [00:59:22] Speaker 1: have her picture in there um she should have her picture in there for for having the whole constellation of cluster b traits qualities oh wow wow he says hello my name is cluster b the reason she's the pathological liar is because he says quote when her external world is not pleasant her internal world [00:59:43] Speaker 2: is pleasant now when her external world is not pleasant her internal world is pleasant fascinating [00:59:51] Speaker 3: which is in other words she just seeks chaos like chaos makes her feel great well i think it's i think [00:59:57] Speaker 1: it's even worse than that i think it's more a version of what i'm what i've been talking about with lying that it's it's she's creating these fictions to protect yourself against shame and fragility and it gives her control yeah there she does she definitely wants to create chaos yeah that one thing about lying one thing that lying does is it it challenges other people's reality it challenges other people's perceptions of the world and when you do that you create chaos yeah when you say this is my version of the world and you're wrong and you know that version is not correct it throws you into disarray it it it it right it it upsets your normal perceptions of the world and that's chaos so yes pathological liars do create chaos they do and they do it by the way to control [01:00:53] Speaker 2: to control and make themselves feel yeah to even just feel in control right if if there's a dispute [01:00:59] Speaker 1: if there's a power struggle over different versions of reality and and they want their version to win and that's that's called gaslighting by the way um if they're gaslighting you and arguing that their [01:01:12] Speaker 2: perception is correct and you feel crazy you feel you feel and you're questioning reality you're questioning reality [01:01:22] Speaker 1: and then you're off balance you're off kilter and in some ways you've given them some control yeah they're controlling other people because they're trying to throw you off balance they're trying to throw you into this chaotic state so that you don't know how to respond and so in that sense it is a pure power [01:01:48] Speaker 3: struggle question is there a world with people who are sorry in this case i've been calling for years [01:01:56] Speaker 4: is there a world in which pathological liars like they get to a point where they don't even realize their life they're just doing it like and they they legit believe it [01:02:09] Speaker 2: well yeah yeah lord i think yeah to protect themselves from shame so lori valo so we're gonna [01:02:14] Speaker 1: we're gonna get into this issue and when we talk about the body cam footage in the hospital because [01:02:21] Speaker 2: it's absolutely fascinating it's because she's you're right you see that moment of like she knows does [01:02:28] Speaker 1: she oh okay that was that was a great that was a great hook yeah right so okay it the the hospital the hospital body cam is just there's nothing like it it's just unbelievable so but we're that's where we're going to answer that question which by the way so that will take us to the next segment which is which is the pregnancy we have to talk about the pregnancy the western photograph maternal maternity photography you're getting way ahead with that one well it's part of it's part of the pregnancy the pregnancy so the pregnancy will bring us into it'll start moving us into the realm of the psychology of fetal abductors the pregnancy is her you have to say the pregnancy is her master performance right that's her master lie the problem with the pregnancy is well actually let's back up a little bit because i i think this is really fascinating about taylor parker is how much how many of her lies are based on something her body her body becomes kind of the place of a lot of her lying and a lot it becomes sort of evidence it becomes um it becomes the place where her lies come to life and so if you think about her medical illnesses in some ways she she she takes these fictions and she makes them more realistic by saying that they're her body yeah so she says she has ms so she has cancer she's nobody can find any of these things but it's hard to really dispute if you're arguing that this is happening to my body and even if it's subjective in some sense she's making them more realistic and it's what's fascinating to me about that narrative is there are issues here going back to her childhood we haven't really talked about some of her childhood stuff yet too much but there her body becomes the site of a lot of her shame yeah so isn't it interesting that if you so she has this this weight issue when her parents divorce when she's 14. her parents divorce when she's 12. her mother shauna shauna talks about the divorce she doesn't say much about it but there's some implication this is really interesting there's some implication that the divorce must have been messy because according to shauna and i i don't know if this is accurate but taylor starts using these these are shauna's words about the grandmother starts feeding taylor food for comfort that's the term she used so she becomes a comfort eater she picks up a ton of weight i don't know how much but by the time she's 14 she weighs 250 pounds according to shauna so what's interesting about that is you here you have taylor who a couple of things number one you you can make we can make an assumption that the divorce must have been somewhat traumatic because she's she's emotionally she's eating emotionally for comfort to to calm herself right to deal with that trauma number one number two we can make the assumption i think that's important here is that she struggles with some emotional regulation if she's comfort eating number one and she's self-medicating through food number two i think we can assume that she she's that she when we if we go back to this idea of mirroring and attunement with parents that that she's lacked that to some degree that if in the creation of a false self that becomes taylor parker i think it's probable or it's possible that this becomes a metaphor her body and her weight gain becomes a metaphor for her inability for her emotional dysregulation for her inability to really regulate her emotions because she never had that opportunity to apparently in her family yeah so we and again i'm making a lot of inference here this is speculation but but but the pregnancy becomes her body then becomes the site and the source of shame when she's very young oh interesting and it's right and it's possible okay it's possible we don't know it's possible she may have i i don't know if shauna's version is true but it's possible that she may have had weight issues prior to 14 who knows right but if she didn't either way her body becomes the manifestation of her shame and then later on you get this she's using this prosthetic uh-huh belly which is a way of putting on weight it's it's putting it on in a way that's not real but it's she's revisiting that shame interesting from her childhood and so the pregnancy becomes not only proof of this fantasy of pre of of this fantasy of um having wade's baby having wade's baby right having wade's baby um but it also solves a lot of problems for her um in the sense that it solves a lot of problems because a baby in theory a baby offers unconditional love yeah so it gives her she in her fantasy world this is a way for her to to to get unconditional love unconditional love it's a way for her because her children are growing up you know it's a way for her to become a solution to possible abandonment yes if wade leaves her she still has the baby yes it becomes a solution to her infertility that's another tremendous source of shame she has a hysterectomy she can't have a child it solves that problem it also solves here's another thing that's really important she gave up custody of her kids yeah she can't get pregnant in other words there's there's there's i think there's a deep source of shame here for her around this idea of motherhood and being a mother she's she's not your kids aren't even in this documentary you bear they're a little bit well they're there for the gender reveal right which is so wild they like walk out with her for the gender reveal her older children so that the pregnancy becomes a source of reparation it becomes a for her in her fantasy world it becomes a solution to a lot of these problems she's experiencing with shame so if if there's shame around her being a mother it solves that too it also solves the problem of of her relationship of whatever relationship issue she's having it creates so let's let's say that it seems like wade might be distancing himself from her to some degree it solves that because it forces him closer to her no matter what yeah it forces him to stay with her to some degree and so interestingly enough that i think for me if you go back to these earlier issues around weight you start seeing so she loses this weight presumably reducing her sources of shame to some degree but not really they don't disappear they're not erased she still has if she did have trauma from the weight gain that's still there yeah if she had shame from the weight it's still there but this pregnancy ultimately this pregnancy becomes this catch-all for all this shame and all these issues swirling around her shame also think about let's let's think about other issues of shame that she has she says she's lost custody of her kids she's had multiple divorces she's had a history of relationship failures infertility her hysterectomy job instability she can't keep a job in adulthood she's been fired from all these jobs financial issues financial issues right lack of money um it's not going to solve that problem but it's it's it's by creating this by faking this pregnancy and having this imagined baby i think it really it really becomes compensatory it really becomes a solution to so many of these issues she's having to all the shame she's experiencing and so so i think that i think it so if we're trying to understand taylor parker and we're talking about this idea of the false self this is her attempt to reverse that this is her attempt even though she's doing even though it's all fiction right the irony here there's a paradox here she's created this elaborate web of lies and all these fictions that she can never reverse but she thinks that by having this baby and by being pregnant that somehow she's gonna reverse she's gonna solve all of it and that by the way it's rather than coming to terms with all of her lies right exactly it's important the most important point here to understand about this is this explains why she's all in on the pregnancy this explains how she could go from this false people keep saying well people know she's lying people know she had a hysterectomy they're like well when is she going to have a miscarriage right she's not going to have a miscarriage because she's [01:13:05] Speaker 2: so invested that's what's sad as a lot of people knew and nobody thought that she would go this far but at what point again do you see the red flags enough to realize how far someone will go [01:13:15] Speaker 1: right but but i think you you have to understand the source of her shame in her body from the past and how this pregnancy and this baby and the success of this pregnancy the success of this pregnancy and these issues around infertility and motherhood she can't have a miscarriage because she can't have a failure exactly that's a failure that's more fertility issues and she can't be exposed under no circumstances can be she be exposed because that would increase her shame that would make things a million times worse for her right that would mean that all her defenses and how her adapt her adaptive strategies and all her line would be exposed she would be exposed and her shame would increase exponentially yeah it would in fact i would argue that it would increase to the point where i where you know it would it might increase to the point where well it did increase to the point where she harmed someone else but it's possible it it could have increased to the point where she could have engaged in self-harm because that's how desperate she was right so unfortunately it she acted out scary she acted out externally rather than internally she could have had this miscarriage and somehow justified all this but because of her investment in this and because psychologically and emotionally it meant so much to her [01:14:51] Speaker 2: she carried it out she felt like she had no choice the desperation is what makes her so dangerous [01:14:58] Speaker 1: exactly and not only the desperation and made her so dangerous not only the desperation but the moment the moment the moment when she there's the moment at the end where she wade wade's mother connie wade's mother connie calls him and says look i we've got all this evidence this is days before the crime something's not right here something's not right we've got all this evidence everybody's telling me that this is a false that this this is not a real pregnancy you got to do something and wade finally goes to her this is the moment that pushes everything over the edge wade goes to taylor and he says i know you're not pregnant i know this is nonsense which by the way as an aside like if if this was [01:15:52] Speaker 2: you i'd be like can i touch the baby can you show me the baby like he probably tried that and it [01:16:01] Speaker 1: wasn't working right apparently apparently she must have kept him quite a distance right and it'd be like [01:16:07] Speaker 2: no you can't you know if i was fake in my pregnancy so wade approaches her [01:16:17] Speaker 1: and she says to him this is chilling she says to him she says a few things to him she says she's tired that's the term he used she's tired of his family calling her a liar so this gets to that issue of if she's a liar then she's going to be exposed and being exposed again is terrifying to someone death it's death it's annihilation to someone that doesn't have a real self she's she's tired of being called a liar by him and his family and here's the here's the chilling here's what is exactly what wade says here's what she tells him quote i'm going to bring a kid home unquote that's the point where taylor parker is committed she's all in she's going to find a live child that she's she's going to engage in maternal evisceration that's the moment she makes that decision that's the moment she reaches out to reagan that's the moment when this plan is set in motion and it's irreversible at that point so a day or two later i forget the exact timeline here the crime occurs and we obviously know the result of that so heartbreaking and reagan was just somebody she [01:17:42] Speaker 2: just happened to meet because taylor took photographs for a quick moment for weddings that was one of the businesses or jobs she decided to start and reagan hired her earlier and they met and then they were social media friends and she learned she was having a baby girl and it was just like talk about the wrong place at the wrong time you know oh my gosh [01:18:12] Speaker 1: i know exactly and and reagan was like the sweetest person her family was wonderful it i know those are the moments that were the most touching to me is just the way this impacted the victims family and how much [01:18:26] Speaker 2: they loved her reagan couldn't have been more she was innocent like just i know so innocent and her little [01:18:32] Speaker 1: girl so that brings us to an interesting question about this entire situation and that is that as as reagan's wedding photographer so one of the things they said in the documentary is that after the wedding they actually invited taylor to participate to the reception and to participate in after the reception she she went out with them and spent time with them in other words they seem to [01:19:01] Speaker 2: think she needed a friend for new friends they sensed that she was lonely they sensed all the things you [01:19:07] Speaker 1: would sense about someone who could be borderline personality disorder um but but but the point the point is that they suggest that there's this connection to reagan and her family that goes above and beyond just being a stranger who's taking photographs of the family and that i think that's where this becomes really interesting is that you would think at some level that taylor parker would have some empathy or compassion for this woman reagan that she's befriended she knows the family the whole family [01:19:44] Speaker 2: befriended her exactly the whole family wrapped their arms around her and decided to care for her simply because she photographed this wedding and they could tell that she kind of wanted to be a part of [01:19:55] Speaker 1: it exactly and so once you once you cross this threshold so once wade once she tells wade i'm going to [01:20:07] Speaker 2: bring a kid home that's the moment of no return she did look for infant adoption there was there were some google search results for infant adoption but clearly that's not going to happen but she doesn't have time right she doesn't have time that's what i'm saying it's not going to happen she doesn't [01:20:24] Speaker 1: have time because her due date is is continuing to grow people the longer she doesn't give birth right the longer she doesn't give birth the more the lie is exposed and the more anxious she's getting she's feeling more desperation so this is another fascinating transformation and this is often associated with fetal abduction which is that the victim is dehumanized because the victim the victim at some point the perpetrator has to see the victim they see the victim as a means to an end the end is to get the child the means is to use the victim they see the victim only as an obstacle they see the victim as an object so even though this is really interesting even though taylor parker knew her family knew her spent she spent time with her i know the night before i know in fact when they said who they thought it might be [01:21:20] Speaker 2: reagan's husband said no there's no way she was just here the night before exactly there's no way [01:21:28] Speaker 1: and so it poses an interesting question because when she's doing the wedding photographs there's no means to an end at that point she's not pregnant but if if we go back to what the forensic evaluator said about not her not having any remorse it does suggest an absolute lack of empathy right that whatever she was doing with [01:21:59] Speaker 2: them was all performative none of that was a real connection to feel loved and for her own attention her [01:22:06] Speaker 1: own need her love and attention her her own need to feel less lonely her right her need to feel more [01:22:13] Speaker 2: connected to feel any connection to people well her once friend uh her former friend that decided to stop being friends with her said that that she was so excited about her pregnancy but she almost wanted to be a part of it and and reagan's family sort of said the same thing about her at the wedding that she almost wanted to act like a bridesmaid she wanted to be a part of it well her friend her friend [01:22:34] Speaker 1: mckenzie actually said that when she became pregnant she became like alarmingly attached to her correct almost like it was right almost like it was her pregnancy like she was like in fact it's that's an interesting quote that i want to read now by mckenzie um i got so many notes you do mckenzie says here's what mckenzie says this is a brilliant analysis of of taylor parker mckenzie says quote it was like she wanted it to be hers she also says that that quote she has to piece together parts of other people's real lives to make her feel a little bit more real [01:23:20] Speaker 2: that's exactly what i'm talking about peace that's what mckenzie to make her feel more real she has to [01:23:25] Speaker 1: piece together parts of other people's lives to make her feel a little bit more real and that speaks exactly to this idea of the false self that's the false self the false self is an empty self it's a construct that doesn't exist she doesn't have the self and by the way on that issue if you don't have any substantial sense of self if all you have is this empty self and this false self that's devoid of any substance then you're going to have no self-awareness yeah you're going to have no capacity to reflect the term i use all the time is metacognition you won't metacognition means thinking about thinking it's self-reflection it's the ability to step back and analyze your actions she lacks that if she had that capacity she may have been able to stop herself but because of this idea of taking bits and pieces of other people's lives and kind of grafting them onto herself it shows it shows as you point out it shows that she lacks this capacity for self-reflection she has no self-awareness and that compounds this whole situation yeah that is a profound quote yeah it was one of mackenzie it was one of the the better quotes so this leads us to treating reagan like an objectifying her and not not having any empathy or remorse because she's completely dehumanized her she's already done that by the way so one thing she's done that to [01:25:08] Speaker 2: everyone she's done that to everyone yeah true i don't know if there's anyone that isn't serving a [01:25:12] Speaker 1: need for her you know right and so and so the violence becomes a solution for her yeah the violence becomes a way for her all those issues i just talked about with shame and her fragile self and feeling like she's an inadequate mother all of those issues now this now becomes an attempt to solve that and it doesn't nothing's going to get in her way yeah so i think these are the these are the main elements that take us from even though we don't know a lot about our childhood but these are the main elements that take us i think what we know take us from taylor parker's history to the murder and there's a lot i haven't covered by the way i mean i haven't even really scratched the surface of all her lies yeah well we've mentioned her lies are just astonishing and there's stuff they're astonishing and makes pinocchio [01:26:24] Speaker 2: seem quite yeah they're astonishing and they're unending pinocchio's got nothing on taylor parker [01:26:32] Speaker 1: yeah um so pinocchio getting back to i'm glad you mentioned pinocchio one of the things about pinocchio so the the the way pinocchio grows up and and by the way that you could argue this too that taylor parker is very much a child taylor parker is incapable of growing up she is very childlike she's very childish everything about her speaks about and narcissism by the way has a lot of roots in childhood stuff so narcissists typically present as being infantile and childlike and i think you have some elements of that here too i'm not saying i'm not diagnosing her as a narcissist by the way the psychiatrist did that um correct but pinocchio becomes more human and he grows up when he's able to face the truth when he's able to speak the truth when he's able to act responsibly and when he's able to ultimately when he's able to have his inner life when his inner life comes to life then he comes to life yes when his inner life begins to match his words and so that his nose doesn't grow anymore when he starts telling the truth his nose starts reversing that's when pope that's when pinocchio grows up and becomes human those are the very things when he stopped when [01:28:03] Speaker 2: he starts like sort of accepting his inner self correct he he he put pinocchio's transformation [01:28:13] Speaker 1: ultimately is not only growing up but it's moving from a false self to a true self correct and that's what taylor parker cannot do is you know i created an image which we can put up of of pinocchio and taylor parker interacting it's it's from the original it's not from disney it's from the original 1881 story to rendering based on that by the way which is much more realistic but in this image i have pinocchio with his nose poking taylor parker's false pregnancy her stomach as if to say to her even i know you're lying right that's why i created this image because i had some fun with it but but i i i'm showing the relationship between there's a lot of similarities to pinocchio but even pinocchio can see she's lying even pinocchio is like okay okay pinocchio's like i'm i'm poking your prosthetic belly because i can see [01:29:17] Speaker 2: it's not real yeah like right that's what i'm saying like even pinocchio is like even pinocchio [01:29:23] Speaker 1: even pinocchio can see this like one of the things so one of the problems with line by the way just to revisit this quickly but when you create this elaborate fantasy world it really distorts everything it not only distorts your perception of the world but because it does that it also distorts yourself you can't develop an authentic self if you're distorting everything [01:29:50] Speaker 2: and everyone correct but you get a further away from your authentic self exactly if you are doing this [01:29:59] Speaker 1: exactly and it's really hard to get to get back to normal once once you start going down that path and once you start getting into this cycle of line and line and line all the time about everything so that's going to bring me to some other interesting components so i i i think those are my main points on taylor parker i don't know i i i've tried to get us from point a to be as much as i can i know there's a lot i left out there's a lot of my notes that i we're just not going to have time to cover but i do there's a few things i do want to cover before we finish and that would be some of the family dynamics um one of the fascinating components of of this story and of the documentary the documentary gets into a little bit but not tremendously but but when during the trial the death penalty trial a lot of these players were on the stand and they were talking about her and there's there's there's fascinating component of this case where she creates these villains and these enemies she she she creates these false personas that are emailing and that are on social media and right and and one of them by the way is called mandy body so notice by the way the term body [01:31:25] Speaker 2: shows up that's interesting yeah that that is good catch good catch the importance of the bodies are all fascinating yeah the names are really interesting that she chose so they're all they're [01:31:38] Speaker 1: all pseudonyms they're all her by the way so we've learned that all the texts all the um male and female [01:31:46] Speaker 2: all different phone numbers different voices she used voice manipulators male and female so she has created all the characters all the voices all the names mandy body interesting body right again okay again [01:32:03] Speaker 1: emphasizing the importance of the physicality of her shame wow the physical the it again like by making this this by making this so physical she believes it's it's more likely that people will believe it that it's less likely people are going to dispute something that's physical that you can see [01:32:25] Speaker 2: yeah [01:32:28] Speaker 1: but the so she creates this whole she creates this whole world of she creates this whole world of these villains and enemies and like she's her mother is trying to kill her her mother's tied to the mexican mafia who's trying to kill her like it's just crazy some of the the narrative she spins i'm gonna i'm gonna read i'm gonna read some of the these are some of the emails from mandy body so also all of this most of this is projection by the way so that when i talk about projection i mean parts of taylor parker are coming out of these characters parts of her that she's disowning in herself she's putting out there on other people that's interesting so this is this is these are some of the things she's saying so think of it like this way because this is projection these things she's saying in emails to other people she's writing to wade for so many of these she's writing to angela who's a mother figure to her yeah um these are really things she feels about herself so projection is when you take parts of yourself disown parts of yourself that you don't want to acknowledge and you put them out there on other people these are some of the things these are direct quotes from some of her emails and texts that she's sending to wade and other people quote you don't want her fat ass unquote quote you don't love her unquote quote he hates you quote you disgust him this is how she feels about herself this is how these are all self-hatred yeah and when people start questioning what's going on here and they suspect it's her she blames her mother for all of it never mind that she's spinning narratives about how her mother is trying to assassinate her right and but the there this gets us back to this idea of drama and chaos if you keep people on edge and if you keep people off balance and off kilter then in some ways you control the narrative yeah so she's creating all these personas and these villains and she's doing all this it's not only to take control of the narrative but to try to explain there's all these contradictions that are happening in her arrows she's doing this to try to explain those contradictions she's also using all of this family drama so wade says this he says quote she portrayed her mother as a monster unquote it was quote it was never ending the family drama so what is the drama doing the drama is also a huge distraction the drama is distracted the drama becomes a distraction so people can't focus on the reality which is she's lying about everything people are less likely to focus on it because they're distracted because they're thrown into the chaos and she's also adding to the dysfunction by doing all this she's she's making that family system even more dysfunctional she's adding to the drama she's making she's enhancing the dysfunction from something that's manageable to something that's not manageable which makes it harder for people to grasp she's also by by creating all these family villains and all this family drama she's externalizing blame so she's she's right she's blaming other people i just read some of the texts she's projecting blame on other people and she's doing that in order to maintain her narrative yeah in order to solidify her narrative so by blaming other people it's always you know you see this all the time with pathological liars it's always someone else's fault she's not always she's never going to take responsibility for it so [01:36:44] Speaker 2: she's and that's what's scary to the point where you become so desperate you do this horrific thing never when they say never and we never will take responsibility i should also mention by the way that that so [01:36:58] Speaker 1: just briefly but it it's it's not uncommon for people and i'm not talking about taylor here but just people in general people diagnosed with borderline personality disorder to struggle with this idea of the false self okay people with borderline personality disorder tend to have more childhood adversity they tend to experience more trauma that makes sense makes sense the the definition of borderline personality disorder is based on instability which is very sad it is sad i agree it is sad i've worked with a number of borderline personality disorders and patients that want to improve yeah they want to manage their lives they want to and it's very hard to see them struggle to such a degree because they really want to change um but it becomes very difficult to change but the the very i don't know my notes are [01:37:54] Speaker 2: the very the borderline personality disorder is you guys this like the notes are taking up the whole [01:38:00] Speaker 1: table it is a spread it's care it's characterized this would be in the dsm but it's characterized by pervasive instability and moods self-image behavior and interpersonal relationships so in other words almost all areas of someone's life and so this this this chaos and all this drama and this false self kind of behind all of that a lot of times you'll see that in borderline personality disorder and it's not like they don't want borderline personality disorder people don't want to change that they do they just don't know how it's so habitual they don't know how to right right [01:38:45] Speaker 2: so it sounds like they just can't get over it's also just again the just loving themselves enough to just yeah it's all of the above if they love themselves then they [01:38:56] Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily have as much of a false self right another area that that they did not touch on in this documentary but i think is fascinating is some of her post-crime what i'll call her post-crime behavior yeah she just she just continues to act out she acted out in jail she acted out in prison i mean i can't even scratch i can't even begin to scratch the surface of this but she befriended people in prison that she that she tried to argue were the ones who actually committed the crime so she was she was getting them to write letters saying that they did the crime i mean you can't even you can't even believe the stuff she was doing but she was continuing this pattern of lying and acting out and like it didn't stop and that by the way that tells you when you're incarcerated and you're on death row and you can't change your behavior and you're bringing people you're triangulating people into your drama and you're throwing them under the bus and you're blaming them for your crimes and you're getting them to say things that are false for you by forging letters and i could go on and on she's having relationships trying to have relationships with other prisoners uh and i mean other prisoners in other prisons she's having people communicate with other people outside of prison she's putting she's using she's putting money on her books in a way that's not authorized by i it's not authorized by the prison i mean it just goes on and on here's what here's a quote which i think is is is a great quote if i can find it because my notes are you'll find it i believe in you here's a here's a i found it i don't know how i've got so many notes [01:40:56] Speaker 2: your notes are so impressive [01:41:00] Speaker 1: here's a uh email she wrote to another inmate that was in another facility i believe it was a male inmate she said quote a male inmate that she was in love with i mean i think she was in love with a lot of other male inmates that i'm sure were not anywhere near her prison but quote i love to read but my true joy is writing i love every part of putting together a story unquote that's called a towel let me read that again because if you want to understand taylor parker this is a good this is a good sentence to understand i love every part of putting together a story not only does she love it [01:41:44] Speaker 2: she thrives on it putting together it's also it's also not telling a story because it's one thing to tell a true story she's putting together the story you know that means she's creating the story that's actually a really interesting words there right it's not telling right it's not it's not and it's not [01:42:04] Speaker 1: telling a true story the implications are putting together it's putting together a false story that she's going to then weaponize right in a way that benefits her i mean but so that's that was a that was a quote from her in an email she said she also wrote a letter to the fbi i'm not going to read this but she wrote a letter to the fbi saying that she wanted to work for them as a profiler because she felt like she she so she was trying to she was trying to she was trying to accuse so there was one of the apparently one of her one of the inmates with her was very gullible and she was trying to convince this inmate that the inmate actually was there during the murder and committed the crime and she was going to have the inmate confess to committing this crime wow and but she thought this would work so she thought she would get out because of that and so when when she once she got out her hope was that she could go work for the fbi as a profiler [01:43:06] Speaker 2: i mean yeah that i'm talk about delusional one of the things she said in that letter [01:43:14] Speaker 1: is that she talked also talk about she did have apparently moments of honesty she said she called herself manipulative in that letter and she was quote she's she's quote the one who runs the jail and no one crosses her okay so interesting she did have moments of very rare moments well there you [01:43:44] Speaker 2: know in the hospital that's interesting she knows she's manipulative but in the hospital you haven't talked about the hospital yet the hospital body cam you said that was so fascinating the important [01:43:52] Speaker 1: point here is that her post-crime behavior is the same yeah all she's doing is she's finding a new audience for her craziness all she's doing is finding a new audience for her fictions for her lies right she's still the same pathological liar it also shows she's got a personality disorder and again i [01:44:09] Speaker 2: don't first disappointment personality disorders disorders right she is apparently apparently according [01:44:16] Speaker 1: to the forensic psychiatrist dr gribben she she apparently has all of them so the line the storytelling and all of this continues after she's incarcerated and it shows clearly too that that she's so defense that the performance never ends she's so defensive right she's so fragile that she will do anything even after being put on death row she'll do anything to perpetuate this fiction these these lies in this narrative she'll do anything anything what else i got questions i keep writing them down so i do have some final thoughts we'll get to in a little bit but let's before i do that let's open the floor to your questions thank you we have to talk [01:45:11] Speaker 2: about the hospital yeah i want to talk about the hospital body cam but i think one question i have is i understand she's a pathological liar i understand she has no sense of self i understand or a false self i understand that she's a walking cluster b yeah i understand all that okay but how did she think she was going to get away with this like she is pretending to give birth you know has the umbilical cord of this dying baby that essentially she she murders you know by taking this baby out of her her mother and has the baby and the umbilical cord you know still attached pretending it's coming out of her pants says she gives birth like she's got to know that police are going to find a murdered mother right um like how does she think she's gonna get away with this like i understand the line and she loves putting stories together but at what point does just logic come in and say there's no logic [01:46:23] Speaker 1: so so here's so this will get this will take us to the hospital body cam footage which is just [01:46:31] Speaker 2: for i mean well yeah it does lead us there it does lead us there because that's that's when i started thinking about this was so the hospital body camp but she's in there because she's claiming she just gave birth on the side of the road to this baby that's you know now deceased and they're looking at her parents that are going we know you didn't just give birth whose baby is this and she's still like she's like it's my baby they're not going to figure this out they're not going to find what are you talking about murdered mother you know in her kitchen and her home yeah it's an absolutely fascinating [01:47:01] Speaker 1: moment because it's the it's the collision this is the first moment in her life where you have the collision of a brutal reality a murder that she committed with her pathological line what happens when you get that collision so we saw this with lori daybell to some degree too here's the difference between i'm i don't want to talk about daybell i want to talk about what i think what i believe what so nobody's diagnosing her as delusional the forensic psychologist basically says no this was planned she knew exactly what she was doing there's no mental health issues so there's not delusions there's not schizophrenia according to him now maybe that's changed i don't know i think this is the fundamental distinction i watched that several times i look closely at her body language i was fascinated by the fact that she's in such unbelievable denial i'm just going to be up front with you i've [01:48:08] Speaker 5: been talking to the da down in booty county and they've been working on a case down there and we know that you had a hysterectomy sometime back and that you claimed to be pregnant for a while but you really weren't because we're trying to figure out where this baby came from but you didn't get birth this morning what do you what do you mean so i just said you didn't give birth this morning and we want to know where this baby came from that's why i'm here [01:48:52] Speaker 3: so what happened i just told y'all what happened okay what's the doctor going to find when he comes in [01:49:01] Speaker 5: and checks you is he going to find you to escape birth they can tell when he looks he can tell in about a second if you get birth or not [01:49:10] Speaker 3: oh okay [01:49:16] Speaker 5: so is he going to find that you get birth this morning yes okay he'll be here but the information i've got is you've had a hysterectomy in the past and yeah this directive you can't be pregnant and he came into a hospital with a newborn we want to know where this newborn came from [01:49:43] Speaker 2: okay [01:49:47] Speaker 5: so he's still saying it came from you yes okay because we can do dna on it [01:49:53] Speaker 2: be able to tell pretty quickly they have the placenta and they can see if the placenta [01:50:01] Speaker 5: okay so you you gave birth to this child [01:50:08] Speaker 3: yes we're just making sure [01:50:19] Speaker 5: who drove the ambulance drove here yes [01:50:22] Speaker 2: if there's anything you need to talk us about you can [01:50:41] Speaker 5: i don't know what everybody wants me to talk about so this is what i think [01:50:49] Speaker 1: i think she at some level knows she committed the murder i think she at some level knows that she murdered that baby that fetus but the answer lies in what has she done her entire life and gotten away with it no one's held her accountable right everybody's bought her lies yeah and so here is what she thinks she thinks she's committed this murder but she can manipulate everyone into believing that she did not because that's what she's done that's what she's done her whole life that's what her mother did with her that's what she thinks she thinks she can bend brutal reality to fit her fantasy and that people will believe it because that is what she's always done because that's what she's done because there's never been any limits on her wow that's kind of scary i mean it's scary because i think about but that's how you people that's how you get to murder i know it's frightening desperation mixed with [01:51:53] Speaker 2: cluster b mixed with not holding people accountable you know and getting away with something for so long [01:52:00] Speaker 1: it's frightening my take so on that point my you know i was thinking about so one of the things you know i like to do is draw some literary parallels or maybe some movie parallels this is you pinocchio this is so pinocchio i think pinocchio is my main explanatory vehicle however what this is ready for it i'm ready for it are you sitting down yeah you're sitting down okay here we go yes i'm definitely [01:52:27] Speaker 2: sitting down i've been sitting down for a long time so i am yeah i am more than ready for this you have [01:52:31] Speaker 1: a drink you have you even have coffee or something i don't know what that is yeah all right this is pinocchio meets fatal attraction meets when the hand when the hand rocks the cradle [01:52:46] Speaker 2: that's what this is that's freaking freaky that's that's that's that's exactly what this is except [01:52:52] Speaker 1: the fatal attraction part isn't from an affair obviously it's and it's not a man the fatal attraction part is reagan if you replace reagan with the michael douglas character do you remember fatal attraction with glenn close yes glenn close had borderline personality disorder right so you've got the bunnies pinocchio the liar meets the glenn close character with borderline personality disorder meets the hand the hand the rocks the cradle with the the nanny who wants to take over the home and the the child that's what this is yeah i just can i sell that to hollywood well no it's freaky [01:53:27] Speaker 2: it's actually frightening it's absolutely frightening yeah it is frightening this it's frightening in the [01:53:35] Speaker 1: sense that this is when it looks like when you have someone that's so divorced from reality and so desperate and someone who's a pathological liar who has no sense of self who's who's desperate and they're desperate to maintain a relationship they're desperate for people to believe the lie this is frightening this is what you get and i think this is why by the way this is why and the dehumanization of the dehumanization the right reagan becomes a just reagan becomes an obstacle [01:54:10] Speaker 2: reagan and her unborn baby correct [01:54:17] Speaker 1: wow yeah gotcha yeah which actually so it actually leads to a really i think it leads to an a the question you're kind of asking beneath all of this is what happens when a person's when when a person's fictional narrative begins to collapse yeah what does happen that's where i think it becomes scary what happens when brutal reality intersects with someone's fictional narrative that they've been using to maintain their so to protect [01:54:53] Speaker 2: their identity their whole lives their whole life and that they've never been held accountable what [01:54:57] Speaker 1: happens well one thing that happens obviously is one thing that can happen is violence another thing that can happen is some type of nervous breakdown or some type of emotional breakdown some type of fragmentation that can lead to violence or that can lead to hospitalization that can really lead to self-harm there's a lot of things that can happen the thing that's less likely to happen but could happen is some type of pinocchio transformation would be good some type of come to jesus moment where for pinocchio by the way his come to jesus moment is he recognizes that giuseppe loves him he recognizes that his creator his father wasn't trying to harm him by sending him to school he wasn't trying to harm him by disciplining him he was simply trying to help him geppetto geppetto i'm sorry what did i say i'm sorry pinocchio has that moment where he has that moment where he's able to accept love yeah and that is going to bring me some of my final thoughts which one of my favorite one of the the one of my favorite sayings i say over and over again you're probably tired of it but i always say behind every criminal lies a failed love story no i'm not sick of it it's true behind every criminal lies a failed love story and what does that mean this this is a this is by definition a failed love story very failed on many many levels right since birth beginning to end and i think the reason this is the reason this is such a failed love story is because taylor parker is incapable of finding keeping and feeling most importantly feeling love she doesn't know she doesn't know what it means she doesn't know how to do it she doesn't know how to facilitate it she doesn't know how to keep it and the reason she can't do that is because there's she has no basis to love someone that it's all false she she operates from a position of lies and from a position of false falsity from a position of artificiality yeah and so i you know in that sense i do have some empathy for her because she she wants more than anything to feel love i know and she can't experience that everything she's doing is to try to prop herself up or to try to to to to find people that will love her the problem is she can't accept that love and also she's very confused by the way about like she has this idea of mother motherhood as possession like she thinks that she thinks that if she just have a baby even though it's not even if it's not hers even if she she's pretending that it's hers she thinks somehow she has a baby the mere possession of that baby is going to somehow solve all her problems and it's going to give her love what she doesn't understand about mothering obviously is that mothering is about care or let's say being a parent it's about care it's about responsibility it's about protection it's about nurturing nurturance and most importantly it's about unconditional love towards that child she can't grasp any of that she sees love as possession i know and so i think on this idea of of this being a failed love story i'm going to get back to pinocchio because pinocchio is the opposite pinocchio is a successful love story in the sense that at the end of the day the thing that transforms pinocchio from a wooden boy into a real human being is his ability to give and receive love yeah taylor parker cannot give and receive love and here is the quote that i promised you like an hour and a half ago that i'm now going to read this is going to be my last thought tonight we're going to end with this this is my denouement here's here's a quote from wade at the very end of this documentary wade griffin oh yeah here's what he says he says quote the whole point behind it all meaning the murder the lies everything the whole point behind it all behind it all the whole point behind it all i guess she was hoping one day i would finally tell her i loved her but i never did yeah i guess she was hoping one day i would finally tell her i loved her but i never did if you want to understand this situation that's all you need to know that's it he tells you i mean on the one hand it's kind of sad that wade can't express if he does love her which apparently he never did but if he did love her he can't express it to her right but on the other hand i think what he's part of what he's saying or mostly what he's saying is that he doesn't love her because she's so crazy he doesn't love her because she he doesn't trust her he doesn't love her because he knows so much of this is his line and so much of this is deception he can't love her because she doesn't she's not able to give and receive love and this is how he [02:00:59] Speaker 2: expresses it here's a question though i i mean i i completely agree figuratively speaking but literally speaking yeah i don't know if that would like if he literally said to her hey i love you i don't know if that would have like if she's you know six months pregnant he says you know i love you i will leave you would that have i i mean this sincerely because if it could be that simple we could solve we could stop a lot of crimes before they happen you know just everybody say you love them and well don't worry wade won't do it so [02:01:38] Speaker 1: but i want to know i don't know if it would i think here i think okay i think if wade could genuinely and emotionally connect to her with true love maybe maybe it would be a step in the right direction do i think that would change the equation probably not yeah because she's so far gone and because a personality disorder is a pervasive pattern of habitual actions and behaviors it's really hard to change that right i don't think taylor parker's someone who's going to accept love right whereas pinocchio will exactly well said so in [02:02:23] Speaker 2: other words wade's quote is also about her acceptance of it correct the whole point behind it all i guess is she was hoping one day i would finally tell her i loved her but i never did the other side to [02:02:39] Speaker 1: that is that she would have had to accept his love correct and she couldn't there's no pinocchio can't feel love from geppetto unless he can accept it and it's by the way it's really hard to accept love if you have a lot of self-hatred you know taylor parker clearly has tremendous amount of self-hatred those those examples those texts i read earlier about about that i said were projection you don't love her he hates you he hates you that's how she feels how she feels about herself about herself it's really hard to [02:03:20] Speaker 2: accept love if you have all this self-hatred right you can't accept somebody else's love if you don't [02:03:26] Speaker 1: love yourself that's a cliche but yeah well it's yeah it's a failed love story you know what behind every cliche is a truth is it truth on the on on that issue by the way on the little on the pinocchio on the little pinocchio rendering i did at the top you'll notice there's a sign that says veritas you know what that is yes i do okay there you go do you know what that is yes truth yes the truth will set you free [02:04:04] Speaker 2: but not everyone deserves your truth [02:04:08] Speaker 1: but yes it will the truth will set you free all right thank you you're welcome did did this help [02:04:16] Speaker 2: explain taylor parker it helped explain taylor parker it helped explain to me a lot of people honestly it helped explain a lot that's going on yeah so thank you yeah you're welcome and it's scary you know um like i said when desperation meets yeah um a false self and someone desperate to keep the narrative or their narrative or the story they've put together what happens next and the dehumanization so it's a lot to think about it's actually pretty heavy there's a lot of lying going on in the world yeah it's late right now and i will probably be thinking about a lot and not sleeping right away so okay but thank you so much babe um it does appreciate it yep so and thank you for um i just figuring it out and giving us hope pinocchio gives us hope i love pinocchio i i i i am now going [02:05:21] Speaker 1: by the way i'm now going to go reread pinocchio kaladi's original story i i read this story years ago so i'm i'm but i want to go reread it because it is a really beautiful tale and uh it's been it's a timeless tale i'd like to read that too i'd like to reread it i want to tease a patreon episode by the way coming up um that i've been working on for like weeks now but it's it's going to be my first ever self-help episode i know i know corey richens i know it's exactly that's what inspired it i know it's unthinkable that i might do something positive i know it's unthinkable you're such a glass half i'm totally i'm total pessimist you're gonna be like how could such a pessimist do something that's actually motivating or self-help based i don't know i'm working on it well i would like to tease [02:06:18] Speaker 2: a patreon episode we've already done and i would like i would like to thank everyone for crime con crime con was so fun we haven't talked about crime con that was such a fun time to meet so many of you and yeah uh we shared a little bit about our experience at crime con on patreon patreon.com slash hidden to crime and i want to thank uh or we want to thank i'm sure all of our don't want to speak for you but i think we're both thanking all of our patreon supporters uh no we are truly grateful for all of you and it was it was a wonderful time at crime con in las vegas i i mentioned you know it's interesting you talk about trauma and grief and crime and yet you come away from crime con a little bit more hopeful and and because you you spend time with such thoughtful people and have dialogues with people that bring that hope yeah for me and so uh if we're going to talk about positive things meeting so many of you at crime con was sincerely a positive thing for me and we talk a little bit more about that um on our last patreon episode that is there and for a lot of behind the scenes episodes not a lot like a lot a lot like we have i think over 100 now behind the scenes episodes where john and i actually just turn on um our my phone voice recorder and just start talking iphone sometimes it's when we're on a date uh driving around trying to figure out what to do when we have a babysitter and other times it's just sort of late at night and i i flip on the the voice recorder and we talk and share thoughts and so we have a recent one um that we did so you can find that patreon.com and your self-help one will [02:08:09] Speaker 1: be coming soon so we're planning on recording in the next week this week we'll see yes okay don't i don't do dates okay yeah i'm working on it it's getting there yeah so thank you everyone for being here and [02:08:25] Speaker 2: thank you for um those that support us here uh on our podcast at youtube on spotify uh it was so fun to have spotify uh we share our videos there now and at patreon again patreon.com slash nature cry so until [02:08:40] Speaker 1: then next time we'll see you thanks guys good night good night [02:08:58] Speaker ?: you