“Wars of choice…are immoral”: Priest unpacks Pope Leo’s condemnation of Trump’s war with Iran

[0:00] The first-ever U.S.-born pope is now openly challenging the war being waged by the other [0:05] most influential American on earth, President Trump. Just today, Pope Leo XIV tweeted, quote, [0:12] those who pray are aware of their own limitations. They do not kill or threaten with death. Instead, [0:18] death enslaves those who have turned their backs on the living God. Enough of the idolatry of self [0:24] and money. Enough of the display of power. And during a peace vigil tonight, the pope called [0:31] out, quote, the delusion of omnipotence fueling the war. Earlier this week, he even took the [0:37] extraordinary step to call on people to contact their elected leaders to advocate for peace. [0:42] A Trinity College Dublin professor told MS Now the pope's appeal to people to call their [0:48] representatives are, quote, the equivalent of the nuclear button for the Vatican. [0:52] Joining us now to discuss all of this is Father Brian Massingale, Professor of Theological and [0:58] Social Ethics at Fordham University. Father, it is great to have you on the show. Thank you for [1:02] making time for us this evening. Thank you for the invitation. It's good to be with you. [1:05] So why do you think this administration seems so threatened by the moral authority of Pope Leo? [1:12] I think we have to back up a little bit and understand that when Pope Leo is speaking, [1:18] he's not speaking as an American. He's speaking as the pope. And I think there are some times we put, [1:25] we put, we kind of cast him in a kind of partisan light in terms of it's Pope Leo versus President [1:32] Trump. No, it's Pope Leo as the representative of a faith leader of a faith tradition that is over [1:39] 2000 years old. And he's not doing anything when the pope is speaking. He's not doing anything that [1:45] any other pope hasn't done. So even tonight, when you're talking on the lead up in his speech tonight [1:51] at the prayer vigil, he rooted his thought in the thought of Pope John Paul II, in Pope Francis, [2:00] in Pope Paul VI, in Pope Pius XII, in Pope John XXIII. So when he's speaking, he's speaking as a faith [2:08] leader. And I think the reason why President Trump may be a little concerned by what Pope Leo is saying [2:15] is because Pope Leo is basically calling out what he terms the misuse of religion, the idolatrous [2:23] appropriation of religious faith to justify a war, which by every measure in the Catholic tradition [2:30] would be considered immoral and unjust. Well, could you talk a little bit about that? What would [2:35] the Catholic theological tradition say about a war of choice? And what would the teachings [2:41] tell us? I'm glad you asked that question because Pope Leo is an Augustinian. That means he belongs [2:49] to a religious order that owes its inspiration to St. Augustine, the great Christian leader of the [2:56] third century. And I think we have to under third and fourth century. I think we have to understand that [3:01] St. Augustine gave us the rudiments. He was the originator of what's become known as the just war [3:06] doctrine. And this doctrine is one that's taught in every military academy in the U.S. [3:13] Primary about this doctrine is that the war must have a just cause. In other words, it can only be [3:21] used to protect innocent lives. It also needs to be waged as a last resort. The criteria of the just [3:28] war is that you don't have wars of choice. Wars of choice, by their very definition, [3:34] are immoral and cannot be wasted and cannot be justified. The just war doctrine also goes further [3:41] than it says, even in a just war, not everything goes. And so there must be great care taken to [3:49] protect civilian populations, to protect civilian infrastructure. And so by that just war doctrine, [3:56] again, going back thousands of years now, any kind of threat to annihilate an entire civilization [4:04] so they can never return again, there is no way that can be squared with any understanding of the [4:11] just war doctrine. Also interesting, the Catholic Church in the Second Vatican Council, this major [4:17] assembly took place in the early 1960s. That council made a great effort to be open and inviting to the [4:24] world. And so it didn't speak in a language of condemnation. There's only one condemnation that [4:30] was issued at the Second Vatican Council, and that was against this belief in a total war, [4:36] a war of total annihilation. There is no way that that can be squared with the moral conscience [4:41] of Catholics, of any person of goodwill. [4:46] Father, there are some very senior members of this administration who are Catholics. I'm thinking [4:51] the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, J.D. Vance, converted as an adult to Catholicism, [4:57] actually has a book out right now, a new book about his faith and how that informs his thinking. [5:04] How do you think someone like J.D. Vance would be hearing the message of the Pope right now? [5:11] Hmm. I don't know what J.D. Vance's mental state is. I don't want to try to read the tea leaves of [5:19] his soul. That's not my job. But I would say that when the Pope speaks, he speaks to the conscience [5:26] of people. He's not appealing to people's political ideologies. He wants to raise something that's more [5:33] fundamental, and that is what's going on in the American consciousness? What's going on in American [5:39] society? What has happened to our politics that's such a rhetoric, that's such a threat, [5:46] can be seen as normal? These are the things that the Pope wants to raise. So he's not interjecting [5:52] himself directly into a political debate. The Pope wants to do something that's far more fundamental, [5:58] and that is to say, what has happened to our politics that such rhetoric can be normalized, [6:05] that can be excused, or that political leaders aren't moved to a concern about this kind of rhetoric? [6:10] I think that's the kind of thing that Pope Leo wants to put before us. He's not trying to interject [6:16] himself into a political debate. He wants the political debate to be about, how can this be [6:23] normal? How can people of goodwill not be appalled by such rhetoric? It's interesting that in his [6:32] remarks tonight, he says that even the holy name of God is being dragged into discourses of death. [6:41] And what he wants to do is he's calling to mind what's happening now is we really see a clash of [6:48] religious faiths. On the one hand, you see the administration appealing to a religious faith [6:55] or a God that would sanctify or justify American aggression, American dominance, [7:03] Americans' will to unbridled power, to what he called this delusion of omnipotence. Whereas Pope [7:12] Leo wants to say that the true God, the living God is, as he said tonight, a God of every people, [7:20] language, and nation. In other words, he would definitely want to call upon any politician that [7:27] would say that God is definitely on your side and no one else's. He would say that's idolatry. [7:34] That's not a true God that most religious faiths would recognize. [7:39] Father Brian Massingill, thank you so much for your time tonight. [7:42] Thank you. This is a very important conversation. Thank you.