'Very predatory environment': Fmr. Congresswoman shares her experience

[0:00] So, Ali, Swalwell had been facing an expulsion vote. [0:03] Now that he plans to resign, what impact does this have? [0:09] Well, the political impact, Chris, is negligible, given the fact that Swalwell and Gonzalez will [0:15] likely resign around the same time. We're waiting to see when they actually submit their resignations [0:20] to the House floor, because that's when it becomes official. But from an accountability [0:25] perspective, and we've heard the survivors of Swalwell's allegations say this, that this feels [0:31] like the first step toward accountability. And I think the next question becomes, do any [0:35] of the district attorneys in Manhattan or back in California feel that they have enough to [0:40] actually end up prosecuting Swalwell on any of these allegations, especially the ones that [0:44] are a bit more recent? Those could be in some ways easier for them to find legal accountability [0:50] on. But I think if we focus on the congressional impact for a moment, this is also a rare moment [0:54] where we see Leader Hakeem Jeffries on the Democratic side and House Speaker Mike Johnson in agreement [1:00] over where things landed. Listen to the conversation that they just had with one of our colleagues in [1:04] the hall here. Mr. Speaker, can we get your reaction to the decision by Gonzalez and Swalwell [1:11] to resign? Do you believe they made the right decision? I do. I mean, the, you know, my views [1:16] have been made known about the terrible allegations that were made and obviously the facts that they [1:23] both admitted to. And I think it was the appropriate thing. Leader Jeffries, do you believe that [1:27] Congressman Swalwell and Congress and Congressman Gonzalez made the right decision [1:31] in resigning? Yes. The appropriate thing and a quick yup from Jeffries. I think that that is a widely [1:39] shared opinion here in the halls of Congress, Chris. So Congresswoman, you revealed your own [1:44] experiences with sexual assault, sexual harassment on Capitol Hill. I think it was nearly a decade ago. [1:49] And you have worked to make it easier and safer for women to report bad actors. So I wonder [1:54] what's gone through your mind over the last 24 hours or so. And do you feel like your efforts [2:01] have been successful? Chris, I'm really heartbroken by the fact that these women didn't feel that they [2:09] could come forward in the system that we created that protected them. The original law was always tilted [2:17] in favor of the perpetrator. There was mandatory cooling off periods. There was counseling required [2:25] of the accuser. There was non-disclosure agreements. And when the settlement was made, it was the taxpayers [2:34] that were picking up the tab. So Congressman Bradley Byrne, a conservative Republican from Alabama, [2:41] and I joined forces and created this new construct where the victim was represented by counsel that the [2:49] Congress would pay for, that they weren't subject to mediation or non-disclosure agreements. It was only if they [2:57] wanted that. And the settlement would be paid for by the member, either by paying it up front or by having their wages [3:06] garnished or their thrift savings plan or even their Social Security. So we tried to create an environment where they would feel [3:13] safe to report. Now the fact that these women did not is really troubling to me. And I really call on my former [3:22] colleagues in Congress to do a deep dive on this issue and find out why they didn't report. Is it because [3:28] they're concerned about retaliation? Is it because they thought they would be somehow doxxed in some way? [3:35] We've got to make sure we fix this because it's a very predatory environment in Congress. I hate to say that, [3:43] but it's true. These men get empowered. They become entitled and they become have a sense of [3:53] untouchability. And in the case of Congressman Swalwell, there was plenty of rumors moving around [4:01] circling about his behavior, but everyone looks the other way. Even with Tony Gonzalez, the fact that they [4:08] were going to allow him to stay in Congress and finish his term after he conducted himself in a [4:14] manner and had an affair with one of his staffers who then committed suicide. Why would we allow him [4:20] to do that? In the private sector, when something like this comes up, the CEO is fired immediately. [4:26] And I think exactly to that point, Ali, there's an opinion piece by Michelle Cottle in the New York [4:33] Times today that describes this culture of what they called turning a blind eye in Washington. [4:39] She says it's deeply corrosive. And she says, me too, notwithstanding, [4:43] too many in the congressional ecosystem continue to keep the chamber secrets under wraps until doing so [4:50] becomes impossible and a political liability. Is that what you've seen and heard, Ali? [4:56] I think the Congresswoman is right about the pervasiveness of this atmosphere in Congress. [5:03] And I will say for women broadly who are watching, it's not just in Congress where other women try to [5:08] protect each other by saying quietly, hey, don't go for drinks with that person. Don't get in the [5:14] elevator with that person. They are known to hit on women, harass women, do worse to women. I think that [5:20] that is pervasive in the culture up here. And we've seen it. At the same time, I am a bit troubled by the [5:26] narrative that has popped up online about the idea that everyone knew about Swalwell. Certainly, [5:32] I've not spoken to anyone that knew about the extent and seriousness and gravity of these sexual [5:37] assault allegations. That is serious. As a reporter, if I had heard about that, I would have tried to [5:43] unpack it immediately. I do think that Congressman Spire is right that there are rumors about the kinds of [5:49] members who are willing to be active outside of their marriage, the kind who are willing to go [5:56] drinking with staff who are much younger than them, where the power imbalance is immense. I think that [6:02] that is very much part of the culture here. And I don't think it's just isolated to Congress. And [6:07] that's why I think if we broaden this out to a post-MeToo environment, MeToo was an important moment for [6:12] accountability, but it was a fleeting Band-Aid. I think that that is one of the conclusions that you can [6:18] draw in the immediate aftermath of what's happening here in this new reckoning on Capitol Hill. I think [6:23] I'll also say it is hard and the bravery that it takes for these women who have come forward, whether [6:29] they are sharing their names or not, it is bravery that is putting them out there to share something [6:34] that happened in some cases where their bodies were violated, but certainly their sense of security was [6:39] violated in the workplace. That takes bravery and courage. I commend them immensely. At the same time, [6:44] as someone who has heard rumors about other members and tried to do reporting on that, [6:48] it's hard to get people to feel comfortable and safe enough to go forward with a story like that. [6:54] And I think that as we reckon with what did people know, when did they know it, that's an important [6:58] line of questioning. At the same time, though, you cannot do these stories without women who feel [7:04] that they are safe enough to come forward. And I think that's why the system that Congresswoman Spire set [7:09] up is so important. And yet it's also where it falls short, because what has history told us? [7:14] That when women come forward, they are not always believed. I think it's important to note that in [7:18] this instance, there's no lag time between these allegations coming forward and people saying, [7:23] I believe these women, we need to do something about it. So, Duncan, the Manhattan District Attorney [7:29] is already investigating these claims that Swalwell sexually assaulted one of his staffers in the New York [7:34] City hotel room. The FBI is also asking Swalwell to sit down for an interview. There is Alameda County, [7:41] which is also looking into the possibility of it. What do they have to see here to move forward? [7:47] Yeah, because there's a lot swirling around. And remember, there are all these different lanes. [7:51] And what we're hearing about a lot today is the political lane. And that happens really quickly, [7:55] public accountability, a resignation. But speaking from the perspective of a criminal lawyer, [8:01] these charges don't, if there are any charges to be brought, they don't get extinguished upon a [8:06] resignation. This could be the beginning of legal problems for Eric Swalwell. And what they're looking [8:12] at really is to make a criminal case. What is the evidence here? And it's going to go a lot slower. [8:17] What is the evidence? What is the jurisdiction? Is there a crime that happened inside a particular [8:22] jurisdiction? And then they're probably looking a lot more closely about these issues of consent, [8:29] because a lot of it, we don't really know the details of who knew what and who saw what and [8:34] what all the evidence is. The devil will be in the details. Do those details include a lot of now, [8:40] which may be different from pre-MeToo movement, text messages, photos that get sent, even if then [8:47] they're disappeared, people could have taken a picture of them, and contemporaneous to the allegation, [8:54] telling someone you know, or someone's you know. [8:56] Of course, because, you know, one of the issues of consent is whether somebody was [9:00] too incapacitated. That's a statutory definition, right? So New York, for example, where the Manhattan [9:05] DA's office is looking into it, might look at whether somebody was physically, was statutorily [9:12] incapacitated and they couldn't actually understand what was happening to them. Well, it's very narrowly [9:17] drawn under New York law. Getting drunk is not statutorily incapacitated, [9:23] but if somebody gives you a roofie or makes you incapacitated without your consent, that might. [9:28] And so a lot of proving that as a prosecutor might come down to whether someone was able to [9:33] send text messages, whether someone was able to have conversations, whether there were cameras [9:37] present. And so this is going to be a lot slower. We're seeing all of this happen very quickly in the [9:43] political lane. I think we're going to see this unfold much more slowly in the criminal lane from, [9:49] as a legal matter over the next coming months. Okay, months. So Congresswoman, there is reporting [9:53] that within the walls of Capitol Hill, there were whispers. You mentioned that. Whispers are one thing, [9:59] right? But actually knowing something is another. But even with whispers, and some people would say [10:07] where there's smoke, there's fire. And that may not be fair to the person who is the target of an [10:11] accusation. But was there, there's a question that's been raised about whether there was no one in the [10:17] democratic power structure to at least push pause on having Swalwell get into a high-profile governor's [10:24] race. Is there something more outside of the law that you talked about in Congress that can help [10:31] change the culture or at least change the reporting? So I think there's a couple of things that can take [10:38] place. We've got to clarify that sexual harassment means that you cannot have a sexual relationship [10:47] with someone in your office. That is not necessarily absolutely clear. Secondly, and we saw that [10:53] oftentimes in college settings or in the military, where if there was a private place where someone [11:02] could put the information about their sexual assault or harassment, and if they see that person [11:09] having done that to another person, they have greater strength, because it's the numbers that helps them [11:18] come forward. When they know that it wasn't just them, it was someone else, that can give them the ability to [11:25] speak up. So that technology exists today. It exists on college campuses. We had it in the military as well. The one thing that [11:34] hasn't been pointed out that goes on as well is, and I met with many third house women, these are lobbyists, [11:42] who were also being sexually harassed by members, and there's really no place for them to go to speak up [11:50] about it either. So there's more work that needs to be done, and I hope my colleagues will take it seriously [11:55] and improve the rules.