UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer faces more questions over leadership — BBC News

[0:00] The UK Prime Minister faces another day of questions over his future. [0:04] The Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy says she's against replacing Sakhir Starmer. [0:09] Josh Simons, the MP who stood down to make way for the Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham [0:14] to challenge for the leadership, says that a victory for the party in the by-election [0:19] would mean the end of Sakhir Starmer. [0:22] Well, a leadership contest has not yet been triggered, [0:24] but the former Health Secretary West Streeting and Andy Burnham [0:28] have made it clear that they want to become party leader. [0:31] Well, our political correspondent Harry Farley looks at the key messaging. [0:36] Lisa Nandy, the Culture Secretary, a serving government minister, [0:38] and I think in her interview you got a bit of a sense of just what an unusual period [0:43] of British politics we're entering, because on the one hand, [0:46] the Prime Minister has repeatedly said that he would fight any leadership contest [0:51] if and when one comes, that he is not going to stand aside [0:54] or set a timetable for his resignation. [0:56] And so Lisa Nandy, as a serving government minister, [1:00] on the one hand, has to be loyal to the Prime Minister, [1:03] but I think we got a sense in her answer of how the focus of the Labour Party [1:08] is shifting away from Sakhir Starmer onto what comes next. [1:12] And she was asked on Laura Kunzberg whether she thought the Prime Minister would step down. [1:18] I wouldn't write off the Prime Minister, [1:20] but I would just say that this is a very personal decision. [1:23] He's got to make that decision himself. [1:26] And I think it's the job of the entire Cabinet and the entire Labour movement, to be honest, [1:31] to get on with making sure that we win this by-election in Makerfield, [1:34] that we have Andy Burnham, who is an outstanding advocate for the Labour movement [1:39] back in Parliament at the heart of power, [1:42] and that we make sure that we get on with delivering the change that people wanted to see. [1:46] So there you have a serving Cabinet minister asked about the Prime Minister's future, [1:51] not giving a categorical answer that he would still remain in office, [1:56] saying it was a personal decision for him. [1:58] And then going on to say Andy Burnham, [2:00] who has been quite explicit about his desire to be in Downing Street, [2:04] to take over from the Prime Minister, [2:06] saying that he is an outstanding advocate and needs to be back at the heart of power. [2:11] So I think that gives you a bit of an indication of the very strange period of British politics. [2:16] that we're about to be entering. [2:17] And you mentioned Andy Burnham campaigning. [2:19] He is hoping to be the Labour candidate in Makerfield, [2:22] not yet confirmed, but expected to be so this week. [2:26] The person who stepped aside for him, Josh Simons, [2:29] is still the Labour MP for Makerfield, [2:32] but is stepping down to make way for Andy Burnham. [2:36] He gave his justification for why he did that. [2:39] This was not an easy thing to do, [2:41] and I wouldn't have done it unless I really, really believed at the end of the day [2:45] that this was in the best interests of the Labour Party, [2:48] my community, and most importantly, the country. [2:51] And let me tell you, from having been on the ground in the constituency, [2:54] in my constituency in the last two days, [2:56] people broadly agree. [2:58] You know, there are some who say, [2:59] well, that's a bit of a risk. [3:00] You know, what if we, what if we, what if you lose? [3:02] But actually, most people say, [3:04] this is a chance for us to be at the heart of history, [3:07] to change the Labour Party for good, [3:10] and to send someone down to Westminster [3:11] who's got a big agenda for changing Westminster and Whitehall, [3:14] and they are happy about that. [3:17] Of course, Josh Simons, a former government minister [3:19] who had to step down after an investigation [3:22] at his former job, [3:24] where he led the pro-Starma-right think tank, [3:27] the pro-Kir Starmer think tank, [3:28] Labour together after they launched an investigation [3:30] that looked into the personal details [3:33] of some journalists at the Sunday Times. [3:35] So, Josh Simons, the MP, now stepping down for Andy Burnham, [3:39] and that gives you an indication [3:40] of how some people in the Labour Party have shifted, [3:43] that that is a man who led a think tank [3:46] campaigning for Keir Starmer's leadership, [3:48] now making way for his leadership rival in Andy Burnham. [3:52] I said it was a fluid situation, didn't I? [3:55] Right. [3:56] The opposition leader, Kemi Badenoch, [3:58] has also appeared on Laura Koonsberg's programme, [4:01] and what did she say? [4:02] So, yeah, it's a slightly strange period [4:04] for the Conservatives as well, [4:06] because obviously they lost the last general election [4:09] in part after certainly cycling through a series of leaders, [4:14] and now in a position where they're watching the Labour Party [4:16] at least consider whether to remove their leader [4:20] who won a general election less than two years ago. [4:22] So, Kemi Badenoch faced a difficult set of elections herself [4:27] a couple of weeks ago, [4:28] still losing seats that they held in Scotland, Wales, and in England, [4:33] but she gave her reaction to the possibility [4:36] that Andy Burnham might take over as Prime Minister. [4:40] You need to start settling these arguments [4:42] before people come into office. [4:44] Would you prefer... [4:44] Politicians need to be able to make difficult decisions, [4:46] and if you just want to come in saying you'll do nice things [4:49] and not talk about the tough stuff that you have to do, [4:52] you will become unpopular. [4:53] I predict that if Andy Burnham wins and becomes leader, [4:56] he'll become unpopular very quickly [4:58] because he's going to have to do some difficult things. [5:01] So I think we're in for a pretty bumpy few weeks [5:04] in British politics ahead, [5:05] and we should say, of course, [5:06] that we heard yesterday from West Streeting [5:08] setting out his leadership vision, [5:11] setting out why he thought Britain should, [5:14] at some point, rejoin the European Union. [5:17] And we should be careful about saying [5:19] it is a foregone conclusion [5:20] that Andy Burnham will win that seat [5:21] in Greater Manchester because, of course, remember, [5:25] it is a seat that reform did extremely well in [5:28] at last week's elections, or 10 days or so ago, [5:32] winning all the council awards [5:34] in that particular patch of Greater Manchester [5:35] in the Makerfield constituency. [5:37] So it is a big fight for Andy Burnham [5:40] to take on and to try and come back to Westminster. [5:46] There is a view across different wings [5:49] of the Labour Party, certainly not a consensus, [5:51] but a view emerging that if he wins that by-election, [5:55] it's essentially a proof of concept [5:56] that he can be someone who can defeat reform [5:59] in an area of the country [6:00] where Nigel Farage's party has done very well indeed. [6:04] Then there will be certainly a big body of opinion [6:07] that will want to make him the leader [6:09] as the Labour Party tries to take on Reform UK [6:12] in the build-up to the next general election. [6:14] No consensus about that, [6:15] but I think that will be the big pressure [6:17] from different wings of the Labour Party, [6:18] certainly, in the weeks to come. [6:21] Well, thanks to Harry Farley there. [6:22] Well, Ava Santina-Evans, [6:24] the political editor for Politics Joe, [6:26] and James Hill, the deputy political editor [6:28] of The Spectator, [6:29] talk me through the rather fluid situation [6:32] in UK politics. [6:34] Well, it's interesting, isn't it, [6:35] listening to Lisa Nandy this morning [6:37] because she didn't put her entire weight [6:40] behind Andy Burnham, [6:41] which was rather surprising to me [6:43] because you would imagine that she would. [6:45] He's very much in her vein of politics, [6:47] her side of the party. [6:49] And I was thinking about this just a moment ago, [6:51] and I wonder if it's because there's a concern [6:52] that perhaps Andy Burnham might not win the seat. [6:55] You know, as your political correspondent [6:56] just mentioned there, [6:57] reform had done very well [6:59] in the local elections just recently. [7:01] However, you could argue [7:03] that was a referendum on Keir Starmer's leadership, [7:05] and potentially people might turn back to Labour [7:07] if it's Andy Burnham running. [7:09] But I definitely think there is concerns [7:10] when it comes to the Labour Party [7:12] and whether they can actually win in that seat, [7:14] especially if the Greens are running. [7:16] You know, if you've got five parties [7:17] all competing in that seat [7:19] and everyone's throwing all of their weight behind it, [7:21] it could be a very tricky by-election indeed. [7:23] And we've just got a caveat, [7:25] just to underline just how fluid the situation is, [7:28] is that Andy Burnham, [7:30] he's not actually yet been selected. [7:32] The NEC has approved him, [7:33] but my understanding is he hasn't been selected. [7:35] James, what happens if he does get selected [7:38] as the Labour candidate and he doesn't win? [7:40] What happens? [7:42] Well, yes, as you say, [7:43] I think Thursday is when it's going to be [7:45] the selection date [7:45] for the local constituency Labour Party. [7:48] And then we'll obviously enter [7:50] the kind of four-week campaign [7:51] where we will see that frenetic campaign [7:54] up until 18th of June. [7:56] If he doesn't win, [7:57] I think that could be existential for Labour. [7:59] I mean, this would be their most popular politician, [8:01] the only politician they have [8:02] who's in positive approval ratings [8:05] across the country, [8:07] being parachuted in to fight a seat [8:09] that they won very convincingly in 2024. [8:12] And if they can't win here [8:13] with that man on the ballot, [8:14] I think there are some real risks [8:16] about Labour potentially crumbling everywhere. [8:19] You'll see some deep questions being asked [8:21] about the Labour philosophy, [8:22] the Labour machinery. [8:23] And that's why I think that everyone in Labour [8:25] is saying this is a must-win by-election [8:27] if Andy Burnham is on the ballot. [8:28] There's a lot of ifs and caveats and buts. [8:32] And like I keep saying, [8:33] it's a very, very fluid situation. [8:35] But Ava, when it comes to Wes Streeting, [8:38] he has said that he would still take part [8:41] in any contest for the prime ministerial position. [8:46] He would challenge Andy Burnham. [8:50] I wonder, is he in a position to do so? [8:52] Because he didn't have the numbers [8:55] to trigger a leadership contest just a few days ago. [9:00] Yes. [9:00] And the argument that was being made on the Friday [9:03] by people who were closer to Wes Streeting [9:05] was that actually he wanted a proper competition. [9:08] He didn't want to be, quote unquote, [9:09] crowned prime minister [9:10] if not all of the candidates, you know, [9:14] were eligible for the fight. [9:16] He wanted to beat Andy Burnham, [9:17] essentially, in a contest [9:18] so that he could be, in his mind, [9:20] the rightful prime minister. [9:22] But, you know, as you said, [9:23] I mean, I was hunting around parliament [9:24] for the names who were allegedly [9:26] on Wes Streeting's 81, you know, [9:29] spreadsheet list of MPs [9:30] who were backing him to challenge the leadership. [9:32] And truly, I could not add up those names, [9:35] no matter how hard I tried. [9:36] So I think that there was, you know, [9:37] there was a little bit of rowing back going on. [9:39] But, you know, also, again, [9:40] what Wes Streeting was saying yesterday [9:42] during that speech [9:43] when he said he would run for the leadership [9:44] was that he wouldn't, you know, [9:45] he wouldn't launch the leadership contest. [9:47] It's like he sort of rode back a little bit [9:49] on his attack on the prime minister [9:50] and said, well, you know, [9:51] if the challenge is there, I'll fight it. [9:54] So we're kind of playing a bit of chicken here [9:55] because even if Andy Burnham is, say, [9:57] to be selected, [9:58] is then to win the by-election, [10:00] is Andy Burnham going to be the one [10:01] to launch that leadership contest? [10:03] Or are we going to be playing chicken [10:04] for the next six months? [10:06] And is Starmer still going to be [10:07] the prime minister in two years' time? [10:09] You know, it really does feel [10:10] very much all to play for. [10:12] Well, on that note, [10:13] I want to get to that in a minute, [10:15] what kind of position Sir Keir Starmer is, [10:17] because we are looking potentially [10:19] at a long time leg [10:21] and he is still leader. [10:22] But, James, just in terms [10:24] of a potential leadership contest, [10:26] so we've got possibly [10:28] if Andy Burnham does win that, [10:31] and there are so many caveats, [10:32] aren't there, [10:32] if he does win the by-election, [10:34] we're streeting if he gets [10:36] the numbers behind him. [10:39] Angela Rayner, potentially, [10:40] is she still a potential challenger? [10:44] And if this does happen, [10:46] what does that do [10:47] to the Labour Party, James? [10:49] Because they didn't want [10:51] the psychodrama [10:52] that the Conservatives had, [10:54] but they're going through it, potentially. [10:57] Yeah, I mean, [10:58] they may not have wanted it, [10:59] but they have ended up [10:59] in this situation. [11:01] And that is partly because [11:02] of the sense of jitters, [11:04] the sense of everything falling apart [11:05] much weaker than expected, [11:07] but also Keir Starmer's own failure [11:08] as a political leader, [11:09] his own lack of politics, [11:10] which had come back [11:11] to haunt the party, [11:12] with whom they made [11:13] a Faustian pact [11:14] to put a man without politics [11:15] into number 10. [11:16] In terms of the next few months or so, [11:18] it's going to be [11:18] a very weird game. [11:20] I've been quite struck [11:21] in the last couple of days [11:22] how silent a lot [11:22] of the Cabinet have been. [11:23] There hasn't been a great rush [11:25] to declare their colours [11:27] to one mast or another. [11:28] I suspect the main focus [11:30] will be that by-election [11:30] on 18th June. [11:32] If Andy Burnham does win there, [11:33] my sense is that he would, [11:35] unlike where streeting [11:35] have the numbers, [11:36] 80 immediately to go. [11:38] And I suspect that a win [11:39] for Andy Burnham [11:40] on the 18th June [11:41] would be the equivalent [11:42] of the Paris Metro [11:44] where the buttons are pressed [11:45] for the train to be called. [11:47] All the lights would light up at once [11:48] and suddenly Keir Starmer [11:49] and his exit would be paved. [11:52] It's very striking to me [11:53] how very much [11:53] the Prime Minister [11:54] seems to be a passenger [11:55] in all of this. [11:56] He is very much [11:56] taking a back seat. [11:57] There's reports this weekend [11:58] about him potentially [11:59] setting out a timetable to go. [12:01] And I think the last 72 hours [12:02] it's clear that the party, [12:04] which was in his hands [12:05] and his machinery [12:05] as recently as January [12:06] when they blocked Andy Burnham [12:08] for the first time, [12:08] is no longer Keir Starmer's party [12:10] to lead. [12:11] So on that note, Ava, [12:13] with all of this going, [12:15] swirling around, [12:16] there's an awful lot [12:17] going on globally. [12:18] I don't need to understate that. [12:20] How can Sir Keir Starmer [12:22] lead a country? [12:23] How can he be Prime Minister [12:25] when all of this [12:26] overshadows everything [12:27] that he does? [12:28] Well, perhaps it might be [12:30] sensible for the Prime Minister [12:31] to rule himself [12:33] out of any potential [12:34] leadership contest. [12:35] You know, one thing [12:36] that Starmer is very good [12:37] at doing is foreign policy, [12:39] you know, concentrating [12:39] on what is going on [12:40] on the world stage [12:41] rather than getting involved [12:42] in domestic policy. [12:43] And actually, arguably, [12:44] some of his critics have said [12:45] if he'd spent more time [12:46] looking domestically, [12:47] he possibly wouldn't be [12:48] in the sort of, you know, [12:49] the trauma [12:50] that he currently [12:50] finds himself in. [12:52] So perhaps he goes off [12:53] and he goes and meets [12:53] world leaders [12:54] and he secures proper deals. [12:55] He reopens the Strait of Hormuz [12:56] and he settles, [12:58] you know, he oversees [12:59] or somehow gets involved [13:00] in that ceasefire [13:01] that currently is ongoing [13:03] in Lebanon. [13:03] You know, that would put him [13:05] as the sort of [13:06] the sensible Prime Minister [13:07] that he'd like to pitch himself [13:08] as rather than getting involved [13:10] in the day-to-day [13:10] inner machinations [13:11] of the Labour Party politics.