‘Are politicians being honest about election promises?’ — Question Time: Wales Election Special

[0:00] with the uk growth slowing down and demand for public services rising are politicians being [0:06] honest about the trade-offs between taxation and spending right well i've been looking at all your [0:13] manifestos um some have got costings some haven't got costings at all some sort of costings um [0:20] reen are you being honest about the trade-off between taxes and what you want to spend it was [0:26] one of the big criticisms of both the main parties going into the uk general election in in 2024 wasn't [0:32] it that there was a real dishonesty about a massive black hole that people like me said was in the uk [0:38] finances they denied it and of course it turned out that yes they did find a 20 billion pound [0:43] black hole as we as we warned there is a real um issue of uh of a lack of finances in order to [0:51] deliver public services well uh in wales uh to me and the party i lead it's a number of things it's [0:58] being very ambitious but cautious in what you can deliver be realistic with people and say we've had [1:04] to put together a focused program on health and education on child care and on growing the welsh [1:10] economy are you being realistic if you've got the institute fiscal studies saying you're either going [1:17] have to make cuts or increase devolved taxes well neither of which you are acknowledging in your [1:22] manifesto well we took our our manifesto for independence assessment and it came back saying [1:28] yes there are challenges here but this is achievable and that's really important because that's where the [1:32] trust comes in you need to know that something is achievable but does it mean that we still need uk [1:37] government to play its part in giving us fair funding for wales giving us the four billion pounds owed to [1:42] us because of hs2 rail allowing us to take control of our own natural resources in wales through giving [1:47] us control of the crown estate yes but we have to do with careful governments and the kinds of [1:52] mistakes that we've seen from uh from labor being put to one side after 26 27 years of labor rule we [1:59] need to have a government that takes a different approach with honesty with the public but setting [2:03] a high bar too in terms of our ambition yeah so are you being honest about i mean when it comes to [2:08] taxation you want to cut a penny off the welsh rate of income tax yes across the board yes and we've [2:14] explained unlike ply cymru who's got a very expensive child care offer which you've not explained how [2:20] you would fund that we have explained how we would fund it so you've cost 370 million pounds initially [2:25] and we can we can fund that by 145 million pounds scrapping a load of uh uh net zero subsidies green [2:33] levies that kind of thing we'll scrap those that'll save us 145 million pounds we can also we have 200 [2:39] quangos in wales well over 200 quangos costing us um uh over 135 million pounds again we merge those [2:48] bring them in house need to change that we're we're over governed and we can save easily 95 [2:54] million pounds on civil service pay restraint so we've spelt out how we would fund ours and we would [2:59] fund our tax cut in the last year of our term so we've got three years to make it so it's a very [3:04] credible case for making savings which add up to just 1.5 of the budget but at the risk of sounding [3:10] like a broken record you're going to hear this quite a lot the institute for fiscal studies says [3:14] you're going to have to make cuts as well and you're not they do they've said that of every [3:17] government of every party but let me just remind you our savings wrong yeah our savings only added [3:23] right they've got an opinion as we're all allowed in politics but it'll add up to 1.5 of the total [3:29] 27 billion pounds that's spent in wales that is a tiny tiny proportion for savings most businesses [3:35] most households should be able to make that kind of saving if they want it if they want it you think [3:40] you'll have to cut anything no and i've got experience i'm the only i'm the only party leader [3:45] on this panel who has experience in cutting tax and protecting frontline service when i was a council [3:50] leader no one else has that experience here and actually the first minister who can't can't come [3:54] today has obviously already bottled it and has given up on wealth because she's not attended [4:00] this meet at this panel i'll let you answer that in a minute the man with his hand up in the [4:06] audience there do you think it's realistic that the uk can keep affording or can keep living beyond [4:14] its means like we keep going on as if we're a rich country and obviously we haven't seen much [4:19] growth and so it's about time that politicians started taking things seriously we need growth [4:24] and we need efficiency in public services and that was that that's what reform is all about and [4:28] sadly in wales there's been not enough growth we only have one homegrown footsie 100 company [4:34] in wales that that is appalling that that's on labour and it's on ply come here a bit more from [4:38] our audience just just a little bit just behind the man with the gray top and the glasses yeah [4:42] and just responding to something that you said dan uh i've worked with the children's commissioner's [4:48] office in wales and i'm assuming that's something you want to cut the children's commissioner's office [4:54] does vital work in wales we've got a world first future generations act in wales yes something [5:02] that happened because of something you want to get rid of so how would you we're not saying can i [5:08] finish my question how would you ensure that young people disabled people um people living in [5:15] poverty how would you ensure that their voices are still being heard in government when you're saying [5:20] bring them in house aka get rid of the people who are standing up for them so we're not saying [5:31] that we should stop doing what those bodies are doing what we should what we're saying is that [5:35] the government should do it directly and by doing that you make efficiencies you lose layers of [5:40] management all of these organizations the idea is that they are independent of government well and [5:44] that's the problem if they're independent there's no accountability government ministers are blaming [5:48] these quangles for failure all right let me bring the let me bring some more people in the panel [5:53] hugh first of all where is elena should you want to come along tonight no elena is busy out there [5:59] campaigning and i'm her deputy so i'm very pleased and we're very pleased to have you here obviously [6:04] you might reply to dan's point there and it's my first time on the uh program as well so i'm doubly [6:08] delighted so let me remind you the question are politicians are you being honest about the trade-offs [6:12] between taxes and public spending and yet again you've got the institute for fiscal studies saying [6:17] you too with your your manifesto will require cuts that you are not being upfront about uh we are [6:23] being upfront and we are actually saying what we will fund and what we will not fund so for example [6:28] we've got a proposal in here for four billion pound uh new investment in a new hospital fund [6:33] why can i say we'll do that because we've done it before with the 21st century schools that was not [6:38] far off the same amount of money it was the biggest school building program a college building program [6:43] this country has seen since the 1960s so we have track record and dan you're actually wrong in saying [6:49] you're the only one in experience we have lived through 14 years of tory cuts to welsh government [6:54] budgets and we have managed those budgets and done our darndest to protect frontline services invest in [7:00] health invest in social care so within our offers they are well costed well funding we know what the money [7:06] is we're not rushing at a child care offer like plied camry are which has been criticized we're saying we will [7:12] phase it in we will bring forward another 20 000 child care spaces we will actually do nine month [7:18] onwards provision of child care but not on day one we will phase it in and why can i say we can do this [7:24] because we develop the most ambitious child care program in the whole of the uk and we will build [7:29] it further and it's costed isn't you're making a great positive of the fact that that labour has been [7:35] in power so long in wales isn't that part of your problem yes it's the it's the challenge in an election [7:42] without a doubt because if you if you're the incumbent party then what you have to say to [7:46] people is uh you can't expect the same for us we're actually going to do more where do we go next [7:52] so what we've done with 21st century schools we will now do with the hospital estate when we come [7:57] back in we don't do just what we've done we will move to pay our teaching assistants those people who [8:02] read to your children in school who are only paid 10 months let's not have a whole long list i appreciate [8:08] you all want to make your points but i want to hear from the audience too man there in the in the [8:12] blue suit i think yes the ons said that this year the benefits bill will exceed the entire income tax [8:23] receipts for this country by three billion pounds okay if you don't get after that and labour can't [8:31] they tried and they failed to instigate a five percent cut in just the growth but if you don't get [8:37] after that you are going to send this whole country to hell in a financial handcart okay everybody [8:45] working with a job here your entire income tax is being spent on the benefits bill and i'll just [8:50] point out obviously welfare benefits are not devolved to wales that's something that is decided at [8:55] westminster but i i hear your point i too notice that statistic uh yes woman there um we constantly [9:02] hear about this 20 million or 20 billion black hole that keeps happening and keeps coming up if you [9:09] were a business you would be looking for those people to help hold them account possibly looking at [9:15] prosecutions because for that huge amount of money that has gone missing you keep talking about it but [9:21] nobody is being named nobody is being investigated with what they're doing with our money or what has [9:27] happened to that money where is it who's done what with it man here and just in front of you um yeah [9:35] deform uk talk a fantastic game but i wouldn't trust them with a knife and fork frankly um they can't run [9:42] a council in kent without arguing with each other their leader has just become our top cryptocurrency [9:50] salesperson this week and one of their top priorities in wales is to do away with the 20 mile an hour speed [9:58] limit now my average speed on the way here tonight was seven miles an hour so i don't know if dan [10:04] thomas has ever driven in cardiff but of the top of 100 issues that wales faces the 20 mile an hour speed [10:11] limit is not not one of them okay dan i will give him chance to respond but i'm just going to go around [10:15] the rest of the panel so let's go back to the original question um down are are you being honest about [10:21] the trade-offs between taxes and spending now you are promising to cut uh the basic rate uh the basic [10:29] rate uh by one p you're promising 20 million extra pounds for farmers refunds on tuition fees an m4 [10:36] relief road and a third menai crossing and you're not suggesting any spending cuts how on earth are you [10:42] going to do that well it's not true we have said that we want to cut spending and one of the first things [10:47] that we want to do is to scrap the increase in the number of politicians in cardiff bay because [10:53] what that's not going to touch the sides of all this is it it's going to save us 80 million pounds [10:59] over the next four years that's a lot of money that you could be spending on the nhs on those [11:03] frontline services putting into school because you know that's not going to cover all of it we want to [11:08] roll back the size of the welsh government civil service you know we're all paying an extra 160 [11:14] million pounds each and every year compared to what we were paying just three years ago for the [11:19] size of the welsh government that's too much bureaucracy and we need to get rid of it we need [11:25] to stop the welsh government frittering away taxpayers money on things for which they have [11:30] no responsibility whatsoever overseas mini embassies in exotic locations that ministers love to go and visit [11:38] by the way need to go they're not responsible for foreign affairs not responsible for international [11:43] development so solar powered canoes for the amazon i'm sorry the welsh taxpayer can't afford it we [11:49] need to spend that money in our schools hospitals and public services what do you say so people [11:55] fiscal studies that says you've no credible plan for spending cuts well they didn't ask us about which [11:59] what we were going to cut i've just set out some of the things we're going to cut and roll back and [12:04] another thing by the way is the 200 million pounds which has been given to a loss-making airport [12:08] in cardiff which is an albatross around the the uh the people's neck look people are paying too much [12:15] in tax in this country we're paying more and more and we're getting less in return taxes are up [12:21] unemployment is up borrowing is up energy bills are up water bills are up and yet the only thing that's [12:28] going down is our growth rate if we want to be a more prosperous nation and have the finance to be able [12:33] to invest in our public services then we have to grow the welsh economy and the one thing i will [12:39] tell you that would be a disaster for wales would be independence for wales which would cost thousands [12:45] and thousands of pounds for every single person in this audience and that is the dishonesty right [12:49] there a billion pounds black hole in their plans a billion pounds black hole and reforms that is the [12:56] dishonesty that is undermining people's trust in politics and is there no black hole in your plans [13:01] no there isn't it is achievable that is the independence let me come down hang on hang [13:07] everybody let's bring out because he's not managed to get a word in but and this reminds me of that [13:10] saying about two bald men fighting over a comb or just throwing these numbers around and darren i think [13:16] you might get part well listen they're throwing their numbers around the greens of course are not [13:21] throwing any numbers around can we have any costings from you no we have numbers on our priorities [13:26] well so you haven't provided any costings and i'm a bit confused [13:30] if you are going to provide them if so when i can tell you what the cost of our free bus travel [13:34] for under 20. but what about costing your manifesto overall well we've got priorities in the manifesto [13:39] things you haven't costed them have you yeah priorities the priorities are costed but not the rest [13:44] of it that we can do in the current situation reen's absolutely right to point out the need for fair [13:49] funding for wales but we have to accept that in the next four years that's not going to happen it's [13:53] going to be a push from two parties at this table to get that but we do have to likely to decrease in [13:59] we have to operate in this in spending situation we find ourselves in now but we've got things [14:03] that we know can be done other things that we are confident could be done i think saying we've got [14:08] a cost of manifesto and plucking figures out of the air that's what's destroying faith in politics [14:13] that's why we're getting questions like are people being honest with us i mean labor talk about four [14:18] billion for two new hospitals and doing up another one they they know three three well one new west [14:23] wales north wales and uh one one new hospital comes in one new hospital comes in at two billion [14:28] minimum so no they don't so it's throwing numbers around and if you're not most recent hospitals 400 [14:34] million if you throw 400 million if you throw no numbers around isn't it a bit like going [14:40] we're we're looking at the situation where wales is now and the people wales are hurting we heard [14:46] about inequality we heard about people struggling and the two are linked gentleman at the back talked [14:50] about the uk not not being able to match things up the uk is a wealthy nation there is wealth in [14:56] these countries those people aren't paying their tax that's why at a larger uk level we talk about [15:02] wealth taxes making the millionaires and the billionaires pay their fair share to fix our broken [15:07] services that they all rely on obviously we can't don't have the powers to do that in wales but we're [15:12] looking at the leaders we would have one of which is scrapping the unfair council tax replacing that with [15:17] a land value tax which means people with vast assets in land will pay more people struggling [15:23] with the cost of living crisis struggling to eat their homes struggling to pay their bills they will [15:28] see a decrease in their bills because we've got to tackle these things we can't it's also a case of oh [15:33] these things it's a wish list i think the people of wales are tired of politicians who've been in that [15:39] building for 27 years and managed the decline telling them that good things aren't possible we have to [15:45] be ambitious we have to do the things that this country needs and we have to make the wealthy [15:49] pay their fair share all right let's there's lots of hands i just want to get around some of you it's [15:53] a woman there in the glass in the blue top yeah um going back to a point that um you yourself the [15:59] conservative party leader made about um reducing the number of welsh politicians don't you don't you [16:04] understand how that could be a little bit concerning coming from a conservative party leader who and the [16:10] conservative government over the last 14 years has constantly been making cuts to wales [16:14] and advocated just against welsh independence don't you understand how that can might be concerning [16:19] like stripping back our powers you know what i'm i'm proud of the last uk government and the [16:24] settlement that it gave wales it left wales with record settlements left rails record settlements [16:29] and for every pound spent on a devolved service here's a fact here's a fact for you for every [16:35] pound spent on a devolved service in england like the nhs and education per capita wales receives [16:41] one pound 20. same is true we receive one pound 20 but we get worse results for patients and worse [16:48] outcomes for our our children in our schools that's not acceptable okay that's not acceptable i'm not [16:53] prepared to tolerate it i think there will be less politicians from some parties there's some of the [16:57] very bad and i can't you all i can see is you've got mustaches yeah i can't see what you're wearing yes [17:02] um i just feel reform and uh the conservatives have just come here and you just pander into the [17:08] fingertips you're here going oh we're going to cut net zero we're going to slash all these new seneth [17:12] members that would leave this country in absolute ruin scrapping net zero reen mentioned like very [17:19] briefly about um the proudest thing instead of scrapping net zero and leaving our country in as [17:24] a wasteland surely you'd want to devolve the crown estate regain 65 percent of our seabed sorry can i [17:30] finish regain the 65 of our seabed over 50 000 acres of land to promote offshore wind don't scrap net zero to [17:38] try and pander to this this right room politics doesn't make sense net zero is in publishing our [17:42] country yes oh yeah so to me one of the most obvious ways of increasing our income tax revenue [17:48] is by getting more people into work i think it's one in four people in wales are out of work yes of [17:54] working age adults are out of work now i'm proud welshman i'm sure many other men and panelists are [17:58] themselves um where is our ambition for wales absolutely no we need pride starts with work it starts at [18:05] home you know we need to get people back into work and we all need to be contributing okay well there [18:10] in the stripy top yeah you just mentioned um that we need to stop funding independence and lib dems have [18:17] also come out and said the same thing i'm getting really frustrated because there are so many young [18:23] people particularly like myself who have frustrations with westminster and you were ignoring them [18:30] and isn't it isn't it interesting how in this election you have reform and the conservatives [18:36] and labor and now the liberal democrats battling between themselves to say how hopeless wales is [18:43] how useless wales is how we should limit our own ambitions pride company believes in the future of [18:48] our nation and it believes in let's let's hear from jane to design that future thank you very very [18:54] patient so jane forgive me for taking so long i was trying to bring lots of audiences but forgive me [18:57] it's been so long to come to you i just really want to answer that point if i may on uh and then i'll [19:02] ask you to ask the original question indeed thank you uh just to go back to your point we don't [19:07] want a penny spent on independence because actually our public services need that money if there's a [19:13] political project applied to come we want if they are in this in the government then they can go [19:18] ahead and do it but not from government funds and we're saying that's a red line for us so just to go [19:23] back to john's question on taxes we are in the russian liberal democrats are saying something very [19:30] different and i just want to say this point the two political parties on this table who say they want [19:35] to cut income tax and yet protect our public services are quite frankly lying that's not because that [19:42] is not it's possible at all it is not it's alien to wales hang on please let her answer if i may [19:48] finish our public services are really up against it and i just want to touch on social care which is [19:54] our flagship policy we think that we need to put more money into social care to help our nhs [20:01] and to do that we want the money to come from westminster or the senate budget but if it can't [20:05] we'll be really up front with our people and we'll say we want a penny on income tax [20:10] ring fence for social care to fix the crisis right now there are 1400 people in our hospitals in wales [20:18] who can't get out of hospital because we don't have social carers that is an absolute scandal [20:25] and we want to do something about it so if you were to and you very heavily caveated it i know [20:31] senior manifesto but if you were to raise this extra money from income tax it would be solely for social [20:36] care so there's other things that you want to do there's a lot of promises that you are making but [20:41] you've also said we don't foresee cutting anything really we're clear that the next senedd will produce [20:50] a government which will have a majority party which will need the help and support of other parties [20:56] that could be the welsh liberal democrats our manifesto is about an aspiration is about our ambition [21:03] that's what we'll be going forward in terms of the next welsh government and in terms of it's not a [21:08] manifesto of government it's it's things you'd like to influence other parties with is that the way to [21:12] it is absolutely it is really important we get our child care in place we clean up our rivers if we [21:18] looked at if we look after our rivers and our nature they will like look after us and frankly i think it's [21:24] absolutely disgraceful that we're hearing about abolishing the net zero targets because that is [21:29] fundamental to us and our planet let me just i'm going to move on a minute because i want to try [21:34] and get another question but i just i finished i did say i would let you answer the point made by [21:38] by the gentleman over there i think your first one was deformed uk you know your words not mine but um [21:46] i wonder if you want to reply to that also the comments made about net zero i mean the gentleman [21:49] mentioned you can't drive faster than 20 miles an hour in in cardiff and that might be true at [21:54] certain times it's a very urban area but but what we forget is that wales is a very big place it's [21:58] there's rural roads there's urban roads and um people need their cars to get around and the [22:04] default 20 mile an hour a speed limit speed limit the change to that was opposed by almost 500 000 [22:10] people in wales um who and more people than voted labour at the last senate election there is a [22:16] democratic mandate to reverse to reverse that and on the billion pound black hole it just [22:22] about the billion pound black hole do not understand the difference between capital [22:28] and revenue because if you look at their rationale rationale about our budget they cannot be trusted [22:33] with the public financing they do not know how it works may i ask reform uk about the lives that have [22:38] been saved through reducing to 20 miles an hour we don't know we don't know we don't know that's [22:43] down to speed data and evidence [22:51] have been saved and over 700 people have not got into hospital because they have not been hurt [22:57] and the collision rate in wales has gone down 37 percent as opposed to england at four percent so 20 [23:03] miles an hour is making a difference to saving lives and my view is if it saves one life it's worth it [23:08] so so road deaths in wales per population is actually higher than in england and england [23:16] doesn't have a default 20 mile an hour speed limit actually so there's a statistic there and we [23:20] don't know with the current road death statistic if if the cause was due to speed the data is [23:25] correlation the data is the data is the data they're trying to justify a very unfair undemocratic policy [23:43] you