Will insurgent parties fix our councils? - BBC Question Time

[0:00] Voters are losing trust in the councils. [0:03] Why should they believe the insurgent parties will deliver real local change [0:10] rather than just simply replicate all of the problems that persist now? [0:15] That sounds like a very world-weary question, if I may say. [0:19] Is that because you're thinking it's just going to all be more of the same? [0:22] Well, it gets many things, isn't it? [0:25] Every day we traverse the potholes that are within the councils. [0:28] You get reminded how services are deteriorating [0:32] and then you see how much is spent on executive remuneration [0:37] compared to other sectors. [0:40] And it goes on and they're running up debts like central government [0:43] and it's just very wearisome. [0:46] So we're hoping to see real change come from these insurgent parties [0:52] if the result next week comes in as expected. [0:56] Okay, well, look, Zia, let's kick off with you. [0:58] And if you could answer at the same time this man at the front, [1:00] his point about vetting, [1:01] because obviously you've had issues with your candidates as well. [1:04] Yeah, so the first thing to say about local councils, [1:06] and I've spent a lot of time in town halls across the country [1:10] in reform-controlled councils, [1:12] north of 70% of council budgets are statutory, [1:16] meaning that they are mandated by central government. [1:19] The vast majority of that, whether we like it or not, [1:22] not a single councillor of any colour or stripes in this country [1:27] can make any decisions about who gets that social care, [1:30] the parameters upon which it's delivered. [1:32] So first of all, we've got to be clear about that. [1:34] And reform have already talked about how we need to reform social care, [1:38] we need to reform welfare payments, [1:39] because frankly, it is a freight train accelerating towards the cliffs [1:46] to which the whole economy is attached. [1:47] So that's the first point to make, right? [1:49] But councils do have power that is localised. [1:52] You mentioned potholes. [1:53] I personally went through the numbers in a lot of these councils, [1:57] and what you'd find is, [1:58] you're told that all this money has been allocated for potholes. [2:01] The reality is that money is not ring-fenced, [2:03] and so what ends up happening in reality, [2:05] and it's really important that everybody understands this, [2:08] the majority of that money in most councils never makes it to fixing the roads. [2:12] Well, that seems to be the case, Zia. [2:14] It is diverted away to social care. [2:17] And that seems to be the case with one of your councils. [2:19] Hang on, Zia. [2:20] That seems to be the case with one of your councils. [2:21] Tell me if this is not right, [2:22] but this is according to a Freedom of Information request prompted by Labour, [2:28] that, since you mentioned potholes, [2:30] pothole spending in North Warwickshire under reform [2:33] has dropped by more than 50%. [2:34] Is that right? [2:36] Well, the first point to make is, [2:38] judging a council by what the spending in absolute pounds [2:41] is not the correct measure. [2:42] The correct measure is to determine the quality of the roads. [2:46] Well, hang on. People want to know, [2:46] potholes come up every week on Question Time. [2:48] Fiona, with respect. [2:49] Well, is it true? [2:51] Is that council spending 50% less on potholes? [2:53] Fiona, with respect. [2:54] With respect, I'm asking you that question. [2:56] If you run a business on the basis of, [2:58] I want my departments to spend as much money as possible, [3:01] and that's all I judge them on, [3:02] then your business would not last very long. [3:04] One of the big problems we have in this country right now [3:07] is a huge amount of money is wasted. [3:10] We have championed at reform more efficient ways [3:13] of utilising money that is allocated to potholes [3:16] to the degree it's actually spent on fixing roads. [3:18] The truth of the matter is, [3:20] the contracts that are dished out by councils [3:23] to contractors to supposedly fix potholes [3:26] invariably have no quality component to them whatsoever, [3:31] have no guarantee attached to them whatsoever. [3:33] That stands in stark contrast to many countries [3:36] that are great at this, [3:36] countries like the United Arab Emirates, for example. [3:38] So I've overseen personally a lot of our initiatives on this, [3:42] and I'm very proud of that. [3:43] Zia, I'm just going to give it one more go. [3:44] Has potholes spending in North Warcher, [3:47] under reform, dropped by more than half? [3:49] Well, I'm not across that precise bit of detail. [3:52] I will tell you this. [3:53] I will tell you this. [3:54] No party who controls councils in this country [3:58] has been more successful in fixing potholes than reform. [4:02] We've already published that information. [4:03] Would you like to listen? [4:05] I'll come round to the question. [4:06] But since you asked this question about vetting, [4:07] and also we've talked about the green candidates, [4:09] all parties have problems with vetting. [4:12] I think it's worth pointing that out. [4:13] But since we've got you here, Zia, [4:15] and the question was about insurgent parties, [4:16] of course, which reform is one. [4:18] So you've got a candidate in Bexley [4:20] who shared a photo online with a quote [4:22] that Islam was the religion of rape, incest and paedophilia. [4:26] Her name is Caroline Panetta. [4:28] Is she still standing? [4:30] She won't be standing, but I want to make this point too. [4:33] She's been suspended then? [4:34] She will not be standing. [4:36] And I want to make this point [4:37] because I was chairman of the party. [4:39] It's a start-up party, right? [4:41] And I set up the vetting process. [4:44] I'm very proud of that. [4:45] We have vetted north of 9,000 candidates. [4:47] We're standing 5,500-plus candidates in the space of two years, [4:52] unprecedented in British political history. [4:54] If I sat here and told you that our vetting process was perfect, [4:58] you'd know that that could not be possible. [5:00] I'm going to be very honest with you. [5:01] It's obviously not perfect, [5:03] but it is north of 99.9% accurate. [5:08] And to the degree that slumps slip through the net, [5:10] we act on it decisively. [5:12] But I want to make a few points here [5:13] that it's perfectly legitimate, Fiona, [5:15] for you to hold reform to account. [5:16] Please leave me if you don't mind. [5:17] Yeah, hold us to account for reform candidates. [5:20] But what's interesting is nobody seems to be interested [5:22] in any of the bad eggs and bad apples in other parties. [5:25] The Tories have had to stand down more candidates than us. [5:27] We haven't talked about the Greens this evening. [5:28] The Tories have stood down more candidates than us [5:31] as a result of misdemeanors. [5:32] A Tory candidate just last week [5:34] threatened to murder a high-profile celebrity's mother, [5:39] barely covered, if at all, in the media. [5:41] So look, is our vetting process perfect? [5:44] No. [5:45] No vetting processes. [5:46] But to stand 5,500 candidates in the space of two years [5:49] and to have only a small handful [5:51] that sadly did slip through the net, [5:52] which we have acted upon, I'm very proud of that. [5:55] OK. [5:56] Since the question about insurgent parties, [5:57] Rachel, let me come to you. [5:58] So the question is, [5:59] why should voters believe that insurgent parties [6:03] will deliver real local change [6:04] rather than simply replicate the same problem? [6:08] Yeah, I hear you. [6:09] I mean, we... [6:10] I love co-leading a council, [6:13] a district council in Sussex, [6:14] and we have been able to make a difference [6:17] for our communities and for nature. [6:18] And I know I can tell you [6:21] that what you get when you vote Green [6:22] are local, very, very hard-working councillors [6:25] who are absolutely committed [6:26] to two vested interests, [6:28] and that's people and planet and nothing beyond. [6:30] We don't have donations from other big corporates [6:32] who don't have any other interests to look after. [6:34] I can tell you about things that Greens have delivered [6:37] where they're leading councils across the country. [6:39] There's a huge push to deliver [6:41] as much affordable and social housing as possible. [6:44] There's lots of things with investment [6:47] in local businesses, [6:49] brilliant local procurement strategies, [6:51] things to make a difference. [6:52] We've done things like double council tax on second [6:55] and empty homes [6:56] so that we can give more people council tax relief. [6:59] But you're right in that what we can't do [7:01] is change the system. [7:02] And I always say to people [7:03] who are starting to be a councillor, [7:04] I say you can move the needle on the dial [7:06] in so many ways [7:08] and you can always make a decision, [7:09] work for more people in communities [7:11] and work better for nature. [7:12] But we do bang our heads [7:15] against the brick wall of government legislation. [7:16] What's great is that [7:17] being in those councillor positions [7:19] and running councils [7:20] helps us understand what needs to change. [7:22] And a lot of the time [7:23] it is simply that the system, [7:25] so taking housing, [7:26] you cannot actually solve the housing crisis [7:29] in the current planning system [7:30] because it begins and ends with profit. [7:33] Developer profit is protected in this system. [7:35] We need to have council housing at scale [7:37] and that will take a change [7:39] of government legislation. [7:39] Councils need funding at scale. [7:42] I mean, hilarious to hear you talk about social care [7:44] when reformers threaten to close a care home [7:46] in Lancaster to make savings. [7:49] The problem is that the government [7:50] has been defunding councils for years. [7:52] Reformers say, [7:54] we'll make savings, [7:54] they're all inefficient. [7:55] And then time and time again, [7:56] you come in, [7:57] you take power, [7:57] you can't find any savings [7:59] and you put the council tax up. [8:00] That's what's happening [8:01] when some of them are left. [8:02] There were 57 reform councillors [8:04] took over Kent. [8:05] There's only 48 left. [8:06] They drop like flies [8:07] because they're not local [8:08] and they're not working hard [8:09] and they don't care [8:10] about the local community. [8:12] Right. [8:14] I'm going to come to you in a minute. [8:16] Daisy, let me come to you [8:16] because the Lib Dem record [8:18] on local council, [8:19] so let's have a look. [8:20] Last year, Lib Dem [8:22] in Windsor and Maidenhead, [8:24] you'll all know this, of course, [8:25] because you live here, [8:26] council tax increased 9%. [8:28] This year, 7.5%. [8:32] And Lib Dem run English councils [8:34] imposed on average [8:36] the highest council tax rises [8:38] of all the parties. [8:40] Do you stand by that record? [8:42] So, Liberal Democrats [8:44] have had huge success [8:46] in local elections [8:47] over the last few years. [8:48] And in many places, [8:49] we've taken over control [8:50] of councils from the Conservatives [8:51] who left behind them [8:52] an awful mess. [8:54] If you look at places like Woking, [8:55] where, you know, [8:56] the council was almost gone bankrupt, [8:57] we've been clearing up the mess [8:58] left behind by the Conservatives [9:00] in many council places. [9:02] And unfortunately, [9:03] councils don't really have [9:04] many ways of raising money [9:05] to pay for services. [9:07] But Liberal Democrats [9:07] in local government... [9:08] 9% of these people here. [9:10] Liberal Democrats in local government [9:12] protect services against the odds. [9:15] What I would say, though, [9:16] to Charles, who asked the question, [9:17] I think you used the word weary. [9:20] And I think that kind of sums up [9:21] how everybody feels at the moment. [9:23] Everybody feels like [9:24] we're working harder and harder, [9:26] paying more and more in tax [9:27] and getting less and less [9:29] from the state [9:29] and from our local councils. [9:31] And the fundamental problem, [9:33] the reason why we feel like that [9:34] is because we're not growing the economy. [9:36] And that is why we Liberal Democrats [9:38] have repeatedly said [9:39] if we can get a better trading deal [9:41] relationship with Europe, [9:43] we can actually grow our economy faster [9:45] and then we can grow the size of the pie. [9:48] But in terms of why you should vote [9:49] for Liberal Democrats at a local level, [9:51] Liberal Democrats have protected services [9:53] against the odds. [9:54] We've been investing in community facilities [9:57] and leisure centres [9:58] and we've been cleaning up the mess [9:59] left by the Conservatives before us [10:01] in many councils around the country. [10:03] Woman in the black short-sleeved top. [10:06] Yeah. [10:07] My point is to Zia. [10:08] I work in the social care sector. [10:11] I work with old people as a care worker. [10:14] And I was wondering, [10:15] we're overstretched most of the time. [10:17] A lot of us are working 15 to 16 hour days. [10:20] And I'm wondering where you think [10:22] this overspending is going [10:24] because there's, we're overstretched. [10:28] All right. [10:29] I'm going to get around the rest of the panel as well [10:30] if you'll forgive me. [10:31] Yes, man there in the blue sweater and blue shirt. [10:33] I think one of the problems is [10:34] we're devoid of trust in our leadership. [10:37] You've all got something different, [10:39] but nobody's talking together. [10:41] We've got big problems in this country, [10:42] but actually I'm voting for those [10:45] that are going to solve the SEND crisis [10:47] that our family goes through. [10:49] Not just potholes, it's easy to say potholes. [10:52] Education system, 66% of parents [10:56] actually are saying their schools are failing. [10:59] So we need a combined thinking. [11:02] We've got no leadership. [11:03] You're all leaders. [11:05] Yet between you, there is massive divides. [11:08] It's no wonder there's division in this country [11:10] and why we all sit here, [11:12] just I'll mark anybody [11:14] because it will just be the same. [11:17] We need to bring this country together [11:19] if we're going to march forward. [11:21] Bring this country together, Emma. [11:23] I mean, it's not... [11:29] You know, polls are polls, [11:31] but it's... [11:32] If the polls are to be believed, [11:33] and of course we'll find out next week, [11:34] it is not looking good for Labour, is it? [11:37] Well, look, we're going to fight for every vote. [11:39] We're out there campaigning day in, day out. [11:42] But what I would say to the gentleman [11:43] that asked the question [11:45] is that I've seen Labour councils across England [11:49] protect local services [11:51] in the face of Tory austerity [11:53] when the Tories were in power. [11:55] I've seen Labour local councils [11:57] protect children's centres, [11:58] which was an initiative of our previous government, [12:01] protect libraries, [12:02] invest in our green spaces. [12:05] And actually, on the ballot paper next Thursday in England [12:09] is who you want to run your local council. [12:13] And I think Labour councils have got a great record. [12:16] You asked about the other parties. [12:19] Nigel Farage said [12:20] when they took over Worcestershire council, [12:22] where they did put council tax up by 9% [12:24] and cut local services, [12:26] he said he wished they hadn't bothered. [12:28] I mean, that is quite extraordinary. [12:30] What contempt for local government. [12:32] I'm sorry, Rachel, [12:33] you say the Greens run local councils well. [12:35] In Brighton, [12:37] when the Greens were running the local council there, [12:40] they had the worst recycling rates in the country, [12:42] which is quite extraordinary [12:43] given that the Green Party [12:45] is supposed to care about the environment. [12:47] So I would urge people [12:49] to look at what your local councils [12:52] and local councillors are doing [12:54] and judge them on their merits. [12:56] And I've seen fantastic Labour local councils [12:59] across the country [12:59] delivering really good local services for people. [13:03] So, Victoria, it's not looking great for Labour. [13:04] It's certainly going to be terrible for you guys as well. [13:07] Well, I want to acknowledge what Charles said, [13:10] which is that everyone is feeling weary at the moment. [13:13] As Daisy said, [13:14] I think we're all feeling poorer. [13:16] We are seeing our national and public services [13:22] feel more and more creaky. [13:25] And we have, I'm afraid, in the insurgent parties, [13:29] people who are making promises [13:30] that they cannot hope to keep. [13:32] Reform, I have a reformed county council in Lincolnshire. [13:37] They were voted in last year. [13:39] They promised to cut out waste [13:42] and lower council tax. [13:44] This year, they're increasing council tax. [13:47] And on the matter of SEND, [13:49] when DFE, the Department for Education, [13:51] wrote to Lincolnshire County Council [13:53] asking whether they would like to apply for funding [13:56] to set up a new SEND school in our great county, [13:59] vast rural county, [14:01] we desperately need more SEND facilities. [14:05] Reform seemed to have either ignored the letter [14:07] or not got back to the department in time. [14:09] And that funding has now gone to Kent. [14:11] So there are very real-life implications [14:14] for the votes that you're all making [14:17] if you're in areas that are voting next week [14:20] for the future of your local area. [14:23] And what I will say, I want to be positive [14:25] because, you know, I think part of the problem of politics [14:28] is people knocking each other. [14:30] I'm going to be positive. [14:31] In Kemi Badenoch, [14:32] she has travelled the length and breadth of this country [14:36] in a way no other political leader is doing. [14:39] She is speaking... [14:40] Well, that's quite right. [14:41] I'm pretty sure all the party leaders are doing that at the moment. [14:43] We're not quite... [14:44] We're not... [14:45] I'm afraid, Daisy, [14:45] I'm not seeing the same level of movement around. [14:49] Kemi is speaking to people across the United Kingdom. [14:52] We are setting out our plans to say, [14:55] look, there are, as has already been referenced, [14:57] there are some really big issues facing our country. [15:00] We are the only party doing that very deep thinking [15:04] about what we need to do, [15:05] for example, to control welfare spending, [15:08] to help cut your taxes, [15:12] to help raise funding for defence spending. [15:14] OK, but the question's about local councils. [15:16] I'm not seeing none of those things [15:17] are in the gift of local councils. [15:18] But we are part of a Conservative team, [15:21] and I know there are very, very good examples [15:24] of Conservative councils up and down the country, [15:27] including doing fantastic work on potholes, [15:31] whereas... [15:31] And we know that Conservative councils [15:33] have the lowest average band-de-council tax [15:36] of all councils in England. [15:37] And many have huge amounts of debt [15:39] and have almost bankrupted their councils. [15:41] That's not correct. [15:41] You in power, Victoria, [15:42] you slash local government financing. [15:44] I mean, it's quite extraordinary [15:45] that you sit there and talk about your teams. [15:47] We had austerity for so many years. [15:49] And why did we have that? [15:51] And that's why we've got a problem with potholes. [15:54] Why did we have that? [15:56] Because in 2010, [15:58] the last Labour government bankrupted this country, [16:01] left the note saying there is no money left, [16:04] and we had to take the tough decisions needed [16:07] to make up for that. [16:09] Unfortunately, this government is doing exactly the same. [16:12] Let me take another question.