“Trust has been BROKEN”: Fmr. NATO ambassador condemns Trump’s threats to NATO, U.S. allies

[0:00] All right, so today marks the 77th anniversary of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, [0:05] otherwise known as NATO, and President Trump is now threatening to take the U.S. out of it over [0:09] its refusal to join the war with Iran. Trump told The Telegraph, quote, I was never swayed by NATO. [0:16] I always thought they were a paper tiger, and Putin knows that too, by the way. [0:21] This comes as NATO Secretary General is scheduled to travel to the White House on Wednesday. Both [0:25] the White House and NATO have said that the meeting was planned long before Trump's threats. [0:30] Joining us now is former U.S. Ambassador to NATO, Ivo Dalder. Ambassador, it's great to have you [0:34] with us. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. You say this is the worst crisis NATO has [0:39] faced in its 77 years. Why do you say that, and how do you expect this meeting between Trump and [0:46] the NATO Secretary General to go? Well, never before in the 77-year history of this alliance [0:52] has a president of the United States not only hinted, but actually directly said that he wants [0:59] to withdraw from this alliance. He has also said that he wants to withdraw from this alliance. [1:01] He has also said that he wants to withdraw from this alliance. He has also said that he wants to [1:01] withdraw from this alliance. He has also said that he wants to withdraw from this alliance. [1:02] As far as he's concerned, the European allies should not count on the United States anymore [1:07] when it comes to the question of war. They were not there for us, he argues, and therefore we [1:13] won't be there for them. That is a major change. That is a significant crisis in and of itself. [1:20] But more worrisome is that many European allies are now no longer trusting the United States, [1:27] and indeed, seeing the possibility of being caught in a war. [1:31] war that they neither were consulted on nor were asked to participate on when it started, [1:37] they're starting to say, wait a minute, this is an unnecessary war. It's an illegal war. [1:42] We don't want to be a part of it. And they're denying, in some cases, the transfer of certain [1:48] equipments, including in patriot weapon systems, or basing the ability to base aircraft and fly [1:55] through the airspace of other countries. Those are challenges that we haven't seen. [2:01] And you wouldn't have seen this but for the fact of how the president went to war [2:04] and the reality that a lot of countries no longer think the United States is a reliable ally. [2:11] Ambassador, Trump is also facing some blowback, as you pointed out, from other members of the [2:16] alliance. French President Emmanuel Macron mounted a defense of NATO this week, saying, [2:22] quote, I believe organizations and alliances like NATO are defined by what is left unsaid. [2:27] That is the trust that underpins them. If you cast doubt on your commitment every day, [2:31] you erode its very substance. How significant are comments like that? [2:38] And what do you think the implications are? [2:41] You know, I think they're very significant. I think it's a truism that trust has been broken [2:46] between the United States, this administration, at the very least, and our European and Canadian [2:53] allies. And as anyone who has either participated in or observed a breakup of an important [3:01] relationship, say a marriage, when trust is broken, it's a broken trust. And I think it's a broken [3:03] trust. And I think it's a broken trust. And I think it's a broken trust. And I think it's a broken [3:03] it's very hard to put it back together. Not impossible, but it is very hard. So I think [3:08] President Macron saying out loud what, in fact, many people are thinking is important. But he's [3:14] hardly alone. And noteworthy is the fact that Prime Minister Keir Starmer, who talked about a [3:21] lot of noise as a way to sort of dismiss the Telegraph interview that you just quoted up the [3:27] top of the story, then said, but, you know, in the future, we need to have a much closer relationship [3:32] economically. [3:33] AND IN SECURITY TERMS WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION AND WITH THE EUROPEANS. [3:37] THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT BRITISH PRIME MINISTERS HAVE GENERALLY SAID IN THE PAST. [3:40] YES, THEY WANT A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE EUROPEANS, BUT WITHIN NATO, [3:45] NOT SOMEHOW SEPARATELY. WE HAVE SEEN OTHERS, INCLUDING THE CHANCELLOR MERRICK, [3:51] SAYING THAT THE PAX AMERICANA, THE DAYS IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES LED THE WORLD, IS OVER, [3:56] THAT WE NEED TO BE INCREASINGLY INDEPENDENT FROM THE UNITED STATES. [4:00] SO WE HAVE MAJOR LEADERS IN EUROPE, AS WELL AS, OF COURSE, THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA, WHO IN [4:06] DAVOS CAME OUT LOUD AND SAID THERE WAS A RUPTURE IN THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER, A RUPTURE CAUSED BY [4:12] THE UNITED STATES. WE HAVE MAJOR ALLIES SAYING WE CAN NO LONGER TRUST THE UNITED STATES. [4:16] AND THIS WAR COMING AFTER A MAJOR CONFLICT OVER THE ISSUE OF GREENLAND, WHEN THE UNITED STATES, [4:23] WHERE PRIME MINISTER—PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THAT HE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE SURE THAT GREENLAND BECAME [4:28] PART OF THE UNITED STATES, WAS WILLING TO USE FORCE, [4:30] TO DO SO. GREENLAND IS A PART OF NATO. SO UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, THIS HAS NOT BEEN A GREAT [4:37] YEAR, 2026, FOR THE HEALTH OF THE ALLIANCE AND THE CHALLENGES WE'RE ALL LIVING WITH NOW. [4:44] AMBASSADOR, I WANT YOU TO TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT THEN-SENATOR MARCO RUBIO USED TO SOUND LIKE [4:51] WHEN HE SPOKE OF NATO. [4:52] IT'S AN IMPORTANT ALLIANCE. IF NATO DIDN'T EXIST, WE'D HAVE TO CREATE IT. [4:58] IT'S ONE OF OUR STRATEGIC STRENGTHS THAT WE HAVE IN THE WORLD. I DON'T BELIEVE DONALD TRUMP [5:03] WILL BE THE ONLY ONE TO DO THAT. I DON'T BELIEVE HE WILL BE THE ONLY ONE TO DO THAT. [5:03] I DON'T BELIEVE HE WILL BE THE ONLY ONE TO DO THAT. [5:04] AFTER THIS CONFLICT IS CONCLUDED, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO RE-EXAMINE THAT RELATIONSHIP. [5:09] WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO RE-EXAMINE THE VALUE OF NATO AND THAT ALLIANCE FOR OUR COUNTRY. [5:12] SO YOU FIRST SEE HIM SPEAKING THERE IN 2024. IT ENDS THERE WITH HIM IN PRESENT DAY. [5:20] WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT? I MEAN, SECRETARY RUBIO HAS BEEN IN THIS GAME. [5:25] HE HAS DONE THIS WORK FOR A REALLY LONG TIME. HE UNDERSTANDS THESE RELATIONSHIPS. [5:30] I BELIEVE THAT'S PROBABLY WHY HE SUPPORTED THEM AND UNDERSTOOD THE GRAVITY. [5:34] NOT THAT LONG AGO. SO HOW DO YOU READ HIS FLIP-FLOP ON NATO? [5:40] AND NOT JUST HIS FLIP-FLOP ON IT, BUT ALSO HIS ROLE IN THE DISMANTLING, [5:44] THE FRAYING OF THESE RELATIONSHIPS? YEAH, I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS I'M [5:49] MORE CONCERNED THAT WE ARE IN A CRISIS POINT THAN JUST HAVING DONALD TRUMP, [5:55] WHO'S REALLY NEVER LIKED NATO. HE'S ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST IT. HE'S ALWAYS SEEN IT AS MORE [5:59] OF A BURDEN THAN A BENEFIT. HE'S EITHER NOT UNDERSTOOD OR JUST DISMISSED THE VALUE [6:04] THAT PEOPLE HAVE FOR NATO. HE'S ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST IT. HE'S ALWAYS SEEN IT AS MORE [6:05] PEOPLE LIKE MARCO RUBIO UNTIL VERY RECENTLY BELIEVED NATO HAD, AND THE VALUE THAT I STILL [6:10] BELIEVE NATO HAS, WHICH IS THAT THIS IS AN ALLIANCE THAT FOR 77 YEARS HAS KEPT THE PEACE [6:17] IN EUROPE. AND IF YOU KEEP THE PEACE IN EUROPE, IT MEANS YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO TO WAR IN EUROPE, [6:21] WHICH IS WHAT WE DID IN WORLD WAR I AND WORLD WAR II, AT FAR GREATER COST TO OUR LIVES AND [6:25] TREASURE THAN THE COST OF BEING PART OF AN ALLIANCE SYSTEM. MARCO RUBIO WILL HAVE TO [6:32] EXPLAIN FOR HIMSELF WHY HE CHANGES HIS MIND. I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT. [6:35] THAT IN 2023, HE LED THE EFFORT TO SPONSOR AN AMENDMENT THAT WAS PASSED AND SIGNED INTO [6:42] LAW OF THE NATIONAL DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION ACT, WHICH SAYS THAT A PRESIDENT CANNOT WITHDRAW [6:50] FROM NATO UNLESS THERE'S A TWO-THIRD CONSENT OF THE SENATE. THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THAT [6:54] LAW IS QUESTIONABLE, BUT THE SENTIMENT IS NOT. AND AT THE TIME, HE SAID, I THINK IT'S [6:59] VERY IMPORTANT, HE SAID NO PRESIDENT, AND I ASSUME THAT THAT INCLUDES THE CURRENT PRESIDENT, [7:05] SHOULD BE INAPPROPRIATE. [7:06] AND THAT'S WHY I'M WORRIED, BECAUSE WE HAVE THE SECRETARY OF STATE, WHO IS ALSO THE NATIONAL [7:16] SECURITY ADVISOR, TALKING IN THE SAME WAY AS THE PRESIDENT. WE HAVE THE SECRETARY OF [7:21] DEFENSE REFUSING, AS HE DID TWO DAYS AGO OR THREE DAYS AGO, TO ANSWER A QUESTION WHETHER [7:26] THE UNITED STATES WOULD STILL FULFILL ARTICLE 5, WHICH IS THE COLLECTED DEFENSE ARRANGEMENT [7:32] OF THIS ALLIANCE. [7:33] IT'S WORRISOME THAT WE HAVE PEOPLE AT THE TOP OF OUR PARTY, AND WE HAVE PEOPLE AT THE [7:36] TOP OF OUR PARTY, AND WE HAVE PEOPLE AT THE TOP OF OUR PARTY, WHO ARE IN THE EXECUTIVE [7:38] WHO ARE IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, WHO ARE RAISING SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ALLIANCE THAT [7:43] HAS KEPT THE PEACE IN A CONTINENT THAT HAS ONLY KNOWN WAR WHEN IT CAME TO THE FIRST [7:49] HALF OF THE LAST CENTURY. [7:52] SO IT'S A DIRE STATE THAT WE'RE IN. [7:55] AMBASSADOR, QUICK FINAL QUESTION. [7:58] HOW HIGH ARE THE STAKES AS YOU SEE IT WHEN THE NATO SECRETARY COMES AND MEETS WITH PRESIDENT [8:04] TRUMP THIS WEEK AT THE WHITE HOUSE? [8:06] formal verbal commitment that Donald Trump still believes and supports the alliance. [8:12] You know, it would be nice if Mark Ritter, who is the Trump whisperer among all Trump whisperers, [8:19] is able to get the president to say that. But I think it's important to note that it doesn't [8:23] really matter what the president says anymore. He has made very, very clear that he doesn't [8:29] think that NATO has done what it needs to do. He's wrong about that. Many bases and many places [8:35] are being used to fight this war without which this war would not be able to be fought. [8:39] He never talks about that. But more importantly, he's raised too many questions for allies to be [8:46] comfortable, no matter what he says on Wednesday in a meeting with the Secretary General of NATO. [8:50] Ambassador, I'm going to get in trouble for this, but one last question, sorry. [8:53] To play devil's advocate here, what do you make of the French tanker being allowed to pass through [8:57] the Strait of Hormuz and that the French are now basically negotiating with the Iranians or have [9:01] come to some agreement with the Iranians to allow French vessels [9:05] to pass through the Strait of Hormuz? [9:05] Do you think that in itself undercuts the North Atlantic alliance that the European countries [9:10] are going to be looking out for their own self-interest? Not participating in the war is [9:13] one thing, but basically going along with whatever Iran is setting as conditions to [9:18] pass through the Strait of Hormuz seems to be another thing that could anger the Americans. [9:23] Yeah, a lot of things that can anger the Americans, but countries that have their [9:26] own national self-interest, they need to pursue those self-interests. Their ships are bottled up [9:30] and this container ship has been bottled up in the Gulf for months, for weeks. [9:36] And it needed to get out. And here's the problem. Last time I looked, on the 28th of February, [9:42] the Strait of Hormuz was open. Traffic was going back and forth. We started to bomb. That's why [9:47] it's closed. And now we're spending all of our time figuring out how to open a Strait that was [9:52] open before we bombed. You've got to wonder whether this was the right thing to do. [9:57] Ambassador Ivo Daalder, thank you so much. Good to have you. [10:01] My pleasure.