Trump ROASTED for BIZARRE 'ass' stump speech with midterms approaching

[0:00] The thing that keeps me hopeful, but also the reason I'm, like, screaming from the mountaintops every night, it feels like, is because we have to understand that, and I want the people out there who are watching to understand that we are the people. [0:12] It is literally on us, and there is no small thing that we are doing, because history is going to record that we made a difference, that the small things we did were actually the big things that brought us to the other side. [0:24] Hi, everyone. Today we have not one, but two of the best and smartest journalists I know and get to work with. [0:34] Before becoming our colleagues and household names at this network, they both spent nearly a decade cutting their teeth in all things politics. [0:43] Like me, Simone Sanders Townsend's journey began as a flack, as a press person, a communications advisor on campaigns, and then deep at the highest levels inside the White House. [0:54] That'll happen before she became one of us, a member of the press. [0:58] Eugene Daniels is a trailblazing journalist, one of my favorites before he worked here. [1:03] He served as the president of the White House Correspondents Association. [1:07] Together, they host the Cannot Miss podcast, Clock It with Simone and Eugene, which blends politics and culture, because, as we all know, as we cover every single day, where culture goes, politics follows. [1:20] So, without any further ado, because I don't want to take up any time that they could be talking, this is The Best People with Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels. [1:28] Thank you, guys. [1:29] Oh, thank you, Nicole. That was a great intro. We need Nicole everywhere we go. [1:34] Just to announce us into rooms. [1:36] Don't you want your friends just to live inside your little ear and, like, make you feel like all... [1:40] I mean, you guys are so amazing, though. [1:42] And I have to start with a question, Simone, that I always want to ask you, but we're always, like, miked and watching Rachel work when we get to talk. [1:50] So, it took 10 years after I left the White House, I was on The View, and I still struggled to do what you seem to do effortlessly, which is to leave behind my role, speaking for someone else, and speak for myself. [2:02] How did you flip that switch so quickly? [2:04] You know, I actually, and I don't know if most people feel this way, but I feel like it is easier to do what I used to do. [2:13] It's easier for me to be a spokesperson because I'm very good at, like, repetition. [2:17] Right, so it's just, like, it's not even damn what I think when you're being a spokesperson. [2:21] It's like, I'm just here to translate what the lady said or what the gentleman said. [2:25] Yeah, I spoke for Cheney, so, yes, I know what you're saying. [2:28] Like, this isn't me, guys. This is what he thinks. [2:31] Right, right. [2:32] I'm just telling you what the vice president said, okay? [2:35] I think that that's easy for me, you know? [2:37] I think it's harder to do what I do now, and I actually, I spend a lot of time, like, doing research. [2:43] One could argue, I think I spend a little too much time. [2:46] I do a lot of overprepping. [2:46] She's a nerd, Nicole, is what she's saying. [2:48] I am, but I'm a nerd, and I feel the need to overprep because I don't have the excuse to say, [2:54] oh, that's just, I'm just telling you what Kamala Harris thinks, or I'm just, you know, [2:57] I'm just relaying what Joe Biden told me. [3:00] It's just all on me and my analysis and my thoughts and what I'm seeing and hearing, [3:04] and that is so much harder, but I'm very quick at, like, remembering things, [3:09] so I just kind of applied my absorbing other people's talking points to absorbing my notes. [3:14] I think it's also a piece, and I'll spend the rest of my life trying to figure out [3:19] if this is a woman thing or a birth order thing or a, you know, thing that belongs in therapy, [3:23] but I think it's easier for some people to defend someone else's prerogatives [3:27] than to be vulnerable in a way where you're defending your own. [3:32] Yeah. [3:33] Yeah. [3:34] I mean, everyone on this screen has been told in some way, shape, or form, [3:38] either explicitly or implicitly, that they're too much, they're too loud, [3:41] like, put your thing behind closed doors. [3:44] So when you're talking about women, and I will say, Nicole, [3:47] I have always said the same thing about Simone and thought the same thing, [3:50] was her going into anchoring the way that she just kind of did it effortlessly [3:54] was so impressive to watch, [3:56] and that she wasn't one of those people. [3:58] And this happens sometimes, like, folks that used to work for the principals [4:01] and then have become the on-air person, [4:03] that they failed to adequately also criticize, right? [4:08] Like, she was criticizing Joe Biden, like, three months after she worked for Joe Biden, right? [4:12] Like, it was... [4:13] On TV. [4:14] On television, loudly, on the channel that he watches. [4:17] I was like, who said that? [4:18] I was, like, staring at the monitors in someone's office. [4:21] I'm like, who said that? [4:22] I'm like, wait, Simone said that? [4:24] That's news. [4:25] Exactly. [4:26] And so it's so much more impressive because she's been in the room with these people. [4:30] You've been in the room with these people. [4:31] And that's why the criticism and the, like, this is what they should have done [4:35] always hits different. [4:36] Well, and I will just also say, Nicole, along those lines, [4:39] Eugene is saying, I think the benefit that I have [4:42] is that how we are chatting right here, right now, [4:45] how I talk on television, [4:47] is also how I used to talk to the principals. [4:49] For better or worse. [4:50] For better or for worse. [4:51] And so I never had to, like, turn something else on. [4:57] You know, I would give them very frank feedback in private. [5:02] Not in public, usually. [5:03] But I would give them frank feedback in private. [5:05] They would know what it is that I thought. [5:07] They would know the counter. [5:09] Like, we would run through the things. [5:10] I would tell them if I thought it was a bad idea. [5:13] But then I would still be prepared to go out there and defend it. [5:15] And so now, especially right after I left, [5:18] I just, I felt very strongly about a couple things, [5:20] like, let Build Back Better die. [5:22] And I was privately saying, [5:24] well, why is Build Back Better still a thing? [5:26] And I felt like nobody was listening to me. [5:28] So I felt, so I was like, [5:30] oh, well, let me just say it where people can actually hear me [5:33] on national television. [5:34] Eugene, you know my affinity for all your reporting [5:38] because you're on my show all the time. [5:40] I'm such a fan of your ability to not just get the story, [5:46] but then come on TV and talk about it. [5:48] It's such a different skill. [5:49] I mean, I'm married to a reporter [5:50] who's an incredible reporter, [5:52] and he always talks about how hard it is [5:54] to then come on my show, [5:56] he knows me pretty well, and talk about it. [5:57] Like, they are two different skills. [5:59] And you always seemed to be able to do that [6:03] pretty effortlessly, but now you too are an anchor. [6:05] And I guess part of me is kind of mad. [6:08] I mean, I think Allie Velshi is the only person [6:10] that saw me, like, literally duel with the teleprompter [6:13] when I first was filling in for Brian Williams [6:15] or when I got to fill in on Morning Joe. [6:18] Like, it was such a struggle for me. [6:20] And the two of you both just seemed to, like, [6:22] step into these spaces so effortlessly. [6:25] How did you do it, Eugene? [6:26] Thank you. That's so nice. [6:27] I love coming on your show. [6:28] I remember the first time that I got booked on your show. [6:31] I was, like, sweating the entire time. [6:33] I was so scared. [6:33] Stop it! [6:34] I was so scared, especially when you go, [6:37] you know, we're gonna start this hour [6:38] with our favorite friends and reporters. [6:40] And I was like, am I a favorite friend [6:41] of a reporter, Nicole Waller? [6:44] One of the originals. [6:45] Exactly. [6:46] You know, the thing that I have glommed onto is, [6:49] one, when I first started doing TV, [6:52] I was at Politico and I was doing Playbook, [6:54] and I first started doing TV at home. [6:56] It was during COVID. [6:57] And so I think there was something about [6:59] only looking into my computer, [7:01] and, like, in the next room, my husband's in there hiding with, [7:04] at the time we had a cat and trying to keep her away. [7:06] And so it felt like, it didn't feel like there was so much pressure, right? [7:09] There weren't, like, studio lights. [7:10] And I wasn't sitting next to, you know, some of my favorite anchors [7:13] or people I've respected for such a long time. [7:15] And I had on, like, shorts, you know, with the, on top of those dressed. [7:18] We all had on shorts. [7:19] Exactly. [7:20] And so, like, there was, so there was, like, a lot less pressure. [7:23] So I think I learned that way. [7:25] But also, the thing I always go back to is my grandmother. [7:29] So I have one living grandparent left, [7:30] and she is now 89 years old. [7:32] Um, she's, you know, she's on a, on all the government things, [7:36] all the subsidies that the government provides people at that age. [7:39] And I think, what are the things she needs to know? [7:42] And how does it need to be said? [7:44] Because I think sometimes people on TV say things because, you know, [7:48] they want everyone to know they're really smart. [7:50] And my, the way I think about it is, like, [7:52] people think you're smart because you're on television. [7:53] Like, you wouldn't be on these shows, on these panels, [7:56] if you didn't have a brain and you didn't understand things, [7:59] if you weren't talking to the people who were in the White House [8:03] or in the administration or, you know, around Washington, D.C. [8:06] and New York City moving and shaking. [8:08] So I don't have to prove that to anyone. [8:10] I've never felt the need to prove that. [8:12] So what I want to do is the viewers to understand what I'm saying. [8:15] And so I've always tried to think, you know, [8:18] all right, what does Nana need to know about this topic? [8:20] How would, what would make the most sense [8:22] for her and her friends when they're watching? [8:24] Because she watches everything. [8:25] My husband calls her for years. [8:27] They have a little chitchat. [8:28] He's like, Eugene's on at 1135. [8:30] Um, you can watch. [8:32] And so, like, I'm talking directly to her. [8:35] And so I think about her as kind of my avatar, [8:37] is, is what is the information she needs? [8:40] What's the best way to say it so that she understands? [8:42] Because, like, you know, she's very smart. [8:45] She's street smart, but like, she didn't go to Harvard or Yale, [8:47] or, you know what I mean? [8:48] Like, so, and I think those folks also deserve people [8:52] in our positions to explain things to them [8:54] in ways that make sense to them. [8:56] Well, I think that the other piece that is obvious [8:59] is that you guys are both always so connected. [9:02] Mm-hmm. [9:03] You know, and I think there's a piece of that [9:05] comes from how rooted in reporting the stories are. [9:09] Like, you guys are out reporting. [9:10] Simone, I've been next, like, you're always on the phone. [9:12] You're always texting. [9:13] Always gotta get the facts, Nicole. [9:16] I'm like, what did they say? [9:17] But I swear, when you lose that, [9:19] when you're just sitting there, like, reading another newspaper, [9:22] you're so removed from, one, the reporting, [9:26] which is the essence of all of this. [9:27] Like, I drove in, like, on the phone with someone [9:30] on a story we're all covering. [9:32] And, like, if you aren't always trying to deepen [9:35] your understanding of what it is we're talking about, [9:37] then it's, like, impossible to connect. [9:38] But I find the longer I do this part of it, [9:41] the harder it is to carve out the time to report. [9:43] So just take me through what you're both reporting right now. [9:45] Eugene, tell all the stories. [9:47] And can I just, I'll say something nice about Eugene, Nicole. [9:50] Obviously, when I first met him, [9:52] it was on the campaign trail when I worked for Senator Sanders. [9:55] And then when we were in, when I was in the White House, [9:57] Eugene, he was, part of his beat was the vice president's beat. [10:01] And I used to hate to get the phone call from Eugene [10:05] because there would always be a story I would not like. [10:10] And sometimes I would not get the phone call. [10:12] I would hear he was writing a story, [10:13] and I would pick up the phone and say, [10:14] hey, hear you're writing. [10:16] And he's like, oh, I'm not ready to come to you yet. [10:18] I said, well, I'm ready to be spoken to. [10:20] And, but, like, he is very good at going out there, [10:24] getting the information, but also, you know, [10:26] taking the incoming. [10:27] And I do think that you are fair. [10:29] I don't always agree, but I do think you are fair. [10:32] And that is why, I mean, I feel like I'm Eugene's [10:35] biggest cheerleader on his Black Voters series. [10:37] She is, it's true. [10:38] But please tell the streets about what's going on in Michigan. [10:41] Tell me, tell me. [10:42] It feels like not only vital, but, like, determinative. [10:45] Tell me. [10:46] So the series is called The Deciding Vote [10:49] because this is the first time, I think, [10:51] in really a very long time, maybe in history, [10:55] that the Black vote feels like it's up in the air [10:57] in a way that it hasn't been before, right? [10:59] And we chose Ohio, Michigan, and Texas [11:02] to kind of look into that. [11:03] A lot of reasons. [11:04] One, Donald Trump was able to make end roles with Black voters, [11:07] especially some Black men. [11:08] He didn't win them, right? [11:09] They still largely voted for Vice President Harris, [11:12] but he was able to make end roles. [11:13] And so that tells me, and I think it tells a lot of people, [11:18] that when you add in all the ways in which Donald Trump [11:20] is very unpopular, hasn't made good on the promises [11:22] he made to those kind of borrowed voters, [11:24] voters that typically would vote for a Democrat, [11:26] that there is an opportunity for Democrats to bring them back, [11:28] or Republican candidates could double down on them, right? [11:31] And so I just got back from Michigan. [11:35] What I found in Michigan, where Abdul El-Sayed [11:37] is going against Mike Rogers, [11:38] were his numbers with Black voters in the polling. [11:42] It's not where, like, Alyssa Slotkins was, [11:44] and she barely won against Mike Rogers two years ago. [11:46] They're hovering in the 70s. [11:48] She won in the 80 percentile. [11:50] And when I got on the ground, [11:52] and this is why I like getting on the ground [11:53] when you're talking about, like, actual reporting, [11:55] because, like, it reinforces or sometimes dispels [11:58] the notions that you have from your reporting, [12:01] when you're sitting at home calling people. [12:03] And I'm talking to, you know, these folks [12:05] that are knocking doors, and they're telling me [12:08] that they have gone to these, you know, [12:10] homes where older folks live, [12:11] and they have their absentee ballots, [12:13] and they're voting for everybody except Abdul El-Sayed. [12:16] So these older voters were just leaving the Senate. [12:19] They're not voting for Mike Rogers. [12:20] They're leaving Abdul El-Sayed's name off, [12:22] not doing anything for the Senate. [12:24] So that's one. [12:25] Two, we are in this historic Black neighborhood, [12:27] and there's no lawn signs. [12:29] If you look down here, do you see [12:34] any yard signs? [12:35] Look, left, right. [12:36] It's bland. [12:36] Yeah, I'm a little surprised by that. [12:38] It doesn't even look like it's an election going on anywhere. [12:41] No yard signs, right? [12:42] Yeah. [12:42] From the governor? [12:43] Do you usually see it? [12:44] Yes. [12:46] That is scary to me. [12:47] Now, lawn signs are not like the end-all be-all, [12:50] but they do show you excitement, right? [12:51] They tell a story, yeah. [12:52] They tell a story. [12:53] We learned that very much in 2016. [12:56] And folks in Michigan have, like, trauma from that time. [12:59] And there are three reasons is what I found while I was there. [13:02] One, and this is around the country in different ways, [13:05] but definitely in Michigan, there are real historic tensions [13:09] between the Black and Arab American community there. [13:11] So, like, Detroit and Dearborn, also folks in Detroit. [13:15] And I talked to Abdullah El-Sayed about it. [13:17] I talked to the folks on the ground. [13:18] So, there are tensions that have been there for a long time, [13:21] where older Black voters remember being treated a certain way [13:24] by an Arab American. [13:25] Whether it's fair or not, that is the tension that is there, [13:28] an historic tension, a very famous one. [13:30] There's also the uncommitted vote, right? [13:32] Older Black voters remember that Abdullah El-Sayed [13:36] was a part of the uncommitted. [13:37] Now, he came out, like, the next day, [13:39] when it was Kamala Harris on the ticket, [13:40] he came out, he endorsed her, he voted for her. [13:43] But they have not let him forget that. [13:44] They are, they still feel hurt by it. [13:46] Vice President Harris has moved on. [13:47] She came and endorsed him and been on the road with him. [13:50] She was one of the first people to go campaign for him [13:53] from outside of Michigan, yeah. [13:54] Exactly. And so, like, she's moved on. [13:56] They have not. [13:57] They feel like they're defending and protecting her. [13:59] And then the third was because he's so progressive. [14:01] For older Black voters, they tend to be more moderate, right? [14:04] Moderate, right. [14:05] Right? If you say, I'm gonna go flip the table, [14:07] there are a lot of older Black voters like, [14:09] I don't love this table, but it is the table I have. [14:12] What's this other table that you're gonna put here? [14:14] And if you don't make clear to them what that is, [14:16] then there's an issue. [14:18] Now, the campaign's doing all, you know, [14:20] some of the right things. [14:21] They're door-knocking, they're going to Black churches. [14:23] I went with two with him on Sunday with Ayanna Pressley, [14:25] who was also there, but it should not be this close. [14:28] And this is a state for Democrats [14:30] that they are playing defense on. [14:31] It's not one they're trying to pick up. [14:32] I feel like you can always... [14:34] You don't always know it at the time, [14:36] but when you look back, when the results are known, [14:39] I feel like you always look at travel to a battleground [14:42] and say, like, oh, yeah, I should have seen that coming. [14:44] Like, and I felt that way in 16. [14:46] I was on the ground a lot. [14:48] And I was shocked on election night, [14:50] but then when I kind of rewound the tape [14:52] for all the places that I'd been, I was like, well, [14:54] I heard from all those people that they were really distrustful [14:58] at both parties. [14:59] And this, you know, like, what did you hear [15:02] that gives you any, um, ability to cast forward [15:07] what you think is possible on election night? [15:08] The thing I think that is, if you're someone [15:11] who wants Michigan to be blue, [15:12] you want the Democrats to keep it, [15:14] the most concerning thing is that [15:16] Abdul El-Sayed does have a history [15:19] of being in the Black community, right? [15:20] Like, he is someone who worked in Detroit [15:23] as a healthcare person who was, like, running around, [15:26] making sure that people had some kind of access [15:29] to healthcare in Detroit specifically. [15:31] So that's, like, large, like, 75% of Black voters live there. [15:35] And the fact that they are, that didn't, [15:39] that didn't work for them, like, it wasn't enough. [15:41] Some people don't know about it, right? [15:43] So that means that's a lack of education [15:45] by the campaign and the Democratic apparatus in the state. [15:48] So I think that, for me, like, is, is the thing [15:50] if Abdul El-Sayed loses. [15:52] And I will say, the thing that was fascinating [15:55] is I asked him if he felt he could make up [16:00] the lack of Black votes excitement, [16:02] um, that seems in the polls and on the ground [16:05] with young voters. [16:06] And it's, he does think he can do that. [16:08] That is a theory of the case that has not been tested [16:11] in the state of Michigan, [16:13] and really hasn't been tested countrywide, frankly. [16:16] People should not sleep on Mike Rogers. [16:19] Mike Rogers has been working the hell out of the Black community. [16:22] They were, when I was talking to this woman [16:23] named Tashauna Gill, who she is so interesting, [16:26] she got Gretchen Whitmer elected, like, the establishment, [16:28] but also in the primary, endorsed El-Sayed. [16:30] So she's a fan of his, but also is the most concerned [16:33] of anyone I talked to. [16:35] Um, she said over and over that Mike Rogers [16:38] is being in places where he ain't got no business being, [16:40] meaning that that is not a place that is used to seeing [16:44] a Republican, um, person asking for their vote. [16:47] Like, he is, he's hanging out in areas of Detroit [16:50] that has never seen a Republican in years. [16:53] And so even just that is something that, [16:55] that folks have to kind of contend with. [16:57] There's gonna be a lot to be said after Election Day, right? [16:59] Like, should it, should it be this way? [17:01] Shouldn't people just understand the stakes [17:03] and they should vote? [17:03] And I, and I do feel that way. [17:05] I feel at the end of the day that, frankly, [17:07] do you want to win or not? [17:08] Okay, do you want, do you want Donald Trump [17:09] to get another Supreme Court justice? [17:11] Because that's what's gonna happen [17:12] if Republicans keep the Senate, okay? [17:14] Yeah, look, as an ex-Republican, [17:17] I feel like closing my eyes and voting for every Democrat [17:20] on the ballot that I can, because they're the only party [17:24] of the two that is for keeping our country a democracy [17:26] so we can have the fights, is my belief. [17:29] But that, one, is not a mainstream belief. [17:31] And two, it ignores all of the reporting [17:34] of all of the human beings and all the history [17:36] that you guys are uncovering. [17:37] It's not the lived reality. [17:39] It is not how the vast majority of people vote. [17:41] There are a couple of things. [17:42] There's the obvious, like, people have a lot going on [17:45] in their lives, and we have made understanding politics [17:48] and caring about democracy a part of who we are as people. [17:52] And most people aren't like that. [17:54] Most people are, like, dealing with, you know, [17:57] putting food on the table with three kids and... [17:58] And let me say, they might be more right than me. [18:01] I'm not saying I'm right. [18:02] Yeah, it's just different. [18:03] I'm just saying that, like, my driver is this one question [18:06] of democracy versus autocracy. [18:08] And I think it's, my personal opinion, [18:10] is that the Republican Party has broken so bad, [18:13] not because they're all corrupt, [18:15] not because they enable an adjudicated sexual assaulter, [18:20] but because they've ushered in something [18:21] that isn't Democratic. [18:22] And that which isn't Democratic to me isn't American. [18:25] But that is not the calculation. [18:27] I mean, you're talking about history. [18:28] You're talking about things that are local. [18:30] That is probably more true to what the system [18:35] is supposed to be like. [18:36] And I wonder, Simone, for being in Texas, [18:38] like, how do you see these dynamics playing there? [18:41] Well, in Texas, the concern is not [18:44] for the Democratic electorate, to be clear. [18:47] I think in Texas, the concern that Democrats, [18:51] strategists who are working on the campaigns and whatnot, [18:53] that they have, is about what some of these Republican voters [18:57] are and are not going to do. [18:58] But that Angela Paxton ad, that ad that's running, [19:02] where Angela Paxton is sitting at a desk talking about, [19:04] you've got to go out for the team, it's insane. [19:06] It's crazy. [19:07] In a general election, it's not as much about the individual [19:10] players on the team. [19:11] It's about getting the whole team across the finish line. [19:14] Either we hold every Republican seat, [19:16] or we hand the future of Texas to the other team. [19:20] That's why I'm voting for the Republican ticket on November 3rd. [19:23] It's like, I don't like him at all. [19:25] In fact, I divorced him. [19:26] But I am so tribal that my, like, deadbeat ex-husband, [19:31] because he's in my tribe, is a better bet than Tallarico. [19:35] It's bananas. [19:36] She is literally at the desk, like, [19:38] you've got to vote for the team. [19:40] And I'll be voting for the Republican ticket. [19:41] She won't even say his name. [19:43] It's bananas. [19:44] So she had been going around the state, [19:46] um, doing a version of that speech. [19:49] There are a lot of Angela Paxton's in Texas. [19:52] And so the question on the table is, [19:54] are people publicly saying they're very upset? [19:57] With, um, Abbott and what's happening. [19:59] Their own personal financial situation is shit, [20:02] for lack of a better term. [20:03] They don't like Kim Paxton. [20:05] But they're still gonna check the box for the Republicans [20:08] when it comes down to it. [20:09] Now, I think Tallarico is the real deal. [20:11] Like, I get the hype. [20:12] Me too. [20:13] I will say, I've interviewed him a bunch, [20:16] and spent a lot of time with him on the ground in Texas. [20:18] And he is compelling. [20:19] And he also has, if there's anyone who has been able to, [20:23] kind of, understand, [20:25] you attack Kim Paxton, right? [20:27] He attacks Kim Paxton a lot. [20:28] But he doesn't attack Donald Trump, right? [20:31] He talks about how he could work with Donald Trump, [20:33] because he knows he's in Texas. [20:35] But also, it's someone who talks about his faith [20:38] in a different way that is also very fascinating. [20:41] He is someone who, as a Democrat, you know, [20:43] he's had to go back, you know, there was the whole, like, [20:45] was woke one crazy? [20:46] Like, a little bit sometimes when you look at the pictures. [20:48] But there are things that he said that everyone was saying [20:51] at the time that, you know, you look back [20:53] in this current world we live in, [20:55] and it doesn't hit the same. [20:56] And so now, you know, he's worked his way to doing that. [20:59] He's gone on Fox News. [21:00] But Democrats have never, they didn't feel this good during Beto. [21:03] Either time, they didn't feel this good during Colin Allred. [21:06] It is different. The polls are different. [21:08] Beto never ran ahead. [21:11] Ever. In any polls. [21:12] He never ran ahead. [21:13] Well, I think what's interesting, [21:15] look, obviously, I worked for a long line of Texans. [21:17] Um, I think it's interesting that all the, [21:21] all of the sort of real housewives was on the right. [21:23] Right? So, like, the absolute, politically speaking, [21:28] I don't know, I'm personally lowlife. [21:29] Like, like, the guy partying with fugitives in Dubai, [21:32] the guy with a messy divorce, the guy never in the state, [21:36] but always out with his girlfriend, [21:38] the guy impeached by Republicans, [21:40] is sort of the purest distillation [21:42] of what this MAGA Republican Party is. [21:45] And then the drama around, like, a normal MAGA guy. [21:48] Cornyn isn't a squish. He's like a, he's a MAGA guy. [21:51] He's voted with Trump, like, 99.3% of the time. [21:54] But in the state, because it's such a Republican state, [21:57] that drama dominated local news. [22:00] It's a state within five media markets. [22:02] I mean, that has been what has been on their televisions [22:04] for years now. [22:06] And just, you know, then Joe Rogan coming out [22:08] and saying to Tallarico, I think, two years ago, [22:10] why don't you run for president? [22:11] You're a good person. [22:12] Joe Rogan is of Texas, too. [22:14] He, like, his whole empire is in Austin. [22:16] And so you have this whole thing of just the whole state, [22:19] which is a pretty Republican state, [22:21] being disgusted with what's on the menu [22:23] and the Republican, you know, in the first course. [22:26] And Tallarico is so appealing to the very same people. [22:29] Right? Like, he's not like someone who would be a great Democrat [22:32] in California. [22:32] He's someone who's a great candidate in Texas. [22:35] Like, he's, he's like, not just the real deal. [22:38] He's really is kind of where that state is heading. [22:41] And people feel that. [22:42] Yes. And it speaks to something that I think Democrats [22:44] have done a better job than ever. [22:46] And that's kind of allowing the right Democrat [22:49] to come to the top, right, in their, in those states. [22:52] Instead of, there are places, there are some places [22:55] where they try to put their thumb on the scale, right? [22:57] Where, where, you know, Chuck Schumer and folks [22:59] try to put their thumb on the scale, like Michigan, [23:01] and folks are upset. [23:02] And some, that's one reason why some folks [23:04] voted for El-Sayed, Maine. [23:05] But in states like Texas, where they said, you know, [23:08] you'll be as progressive as you can be for your state. [23:11] Like, we're going to allow that to, to play out. [23:14] And I think that is something that's very different [23:16] than Democrats are used to, trying to get, like, [23:18] there's no cookie-cutter situation that they're doing [23:20] this time around. [23:21] But it's not that they said, like, [23:22] give us what you can get on the progressive Richter scale. [23:26] Um, they literally, like, to be clear, [23:29] Tallarico was the preferred candidate of Senator Schumer. [23:32] So in some instances, he is, in my opinion, [23:34] his picker is not all the way off. [23:35] Some days it's off, some days he hits. [23:37] But what has happened this cycle is, I think, [23:40] that a lot of these candidates are just authentic [23:43] and, like, truly homegrown to where they are. [23:46] Like, in Mississippi, Scott Cullum is a... [23:48] She's obsessed with Mississippi. [23:49] Literally obsessed. I think Democrats can win. [23:51] It's real, right? [23:52] It's very real. [23:53] Okay, wait, let's butt in Texas [23:55] and then let's go to Mississippi. [23:57] Um, to your point about Beto. [23:58] So Beto is never ahead. [24:00] Tallarico's been ahead for, I think, [24:02] three and a half, four weeks now. [24:04] Do you have any reporting on the ground, [24:07] either of you, about where this is sort of heading [24:08] in the final days? [24:09] I was just there. I just left Austin. [24:12] And... [24:13] On the road. [24:14] On the road, baby. My poor husband and dog. [24:16] Um, but what I have, what I found every time that I go there [24:19] is that more and more people, whether they be Democrat, [24:22] Independent, Republican, or Libertarian, [24:25] at least like Tallarico, right? [24:27] And for a lot of these candidates, that is the biggest hurdle. [24:29] Like, does someone like you, right? [24:31] It was the Bush, like, do you want to have a beer with someone? [24:33] And that is still a part of politics. [24:37] So they like him. So that's one. [24:39] More people say they dislike what they're hearing about Paxton. [24:42] And they've heard a lot, right? And it keeps getting worse. [24:45] And he's also, like, not charming in any way. [24:48] Donald Trump keeps coming, and he's literally bullying... [24:50] Donald Trump keeps calling him ugly and badly dressed. [24:53] He is bullying this man. I would be like, stop coming here. [24:56] You can't come to my house, talk a shit about me like this. [24:58] This is crazy. He called him ugly, say he can't dress. [25:00] It's insane. You can't do this. [25:01] Every time. [25:02] Like, I don't know what he does more. [25:04] Talk about Houston's ass or how ugly Paxton's clothes are. [25:08] He's like, the ass of the man is now part of the stump speech. [25:13] Like, can we just sidebar for a minute? How did we get here? [25:17] I don't know. I have lots of thoughts that I cannot share on the podcast. [25:20] Apparently, the president saw it and was like, you know what? [25:23] He's like, look at that ass. [25:24] That's the kind of ass I want to see. [25:26] That's a senator's ass. [25:27] Like, that's an inside thought, like, and who among us. [25:31] But, like, that it's in the stump speech. [25:34] Like, it didn't come out once. It is now part of the speech. [25:38] He thinks it's, like, working. [25:41] He kept saying it so much. [25:42] The speech writer was like, okay, we just gonna write it in. [25:45] Because we're adding it in. [25:46] Part of the thing with Donald Trump is that we all know is, like, [25:48] when people laugh at something, he keeps going back to it. [25:51] And sometimes people are laughing because they're like, [25:53] ha, ha, ha, what? Houston's ass. [25:56] And so, like, that, so, like, that, so every time that he comes, [25:59] he's bullying Ken Paxton, showing love to other people. [26:02] But also, every time I've gone there, [26:04] people are looking at the policies of, of, um, Tallarico, [26:09] and they're not seeing the extreme policies [26:11] that they usually think they see from Democrats, right? [26:14] I have to hear Mississippi. [26:16] She's so obsessed. [26:17] I'm obsessed with Mississippi. [26:18] And she's been obsessed, to be very clear. [26:19] For months. [26:20] Scott Cullum. Scott Cullum is the future. [26:23] Let me tell you something. You know, my daddy's from Mississippi. [26:25] Obama just did an ad, right? [26:26] Obama just did an ad. And you know what? [26:28] Scott Cullum is one of the folks that Obama could have ad for, [26:30] because he has a chance of winning. [26:32] He is a district attorney, um, that has been twice elected [26:35] in a county that is made up of Republicans, Democrats, [26:38] and some independents. [26:40] It is very important to say white people have demonstrated [26:42] they will vote for Scott Cullum. [26:45] And he is running in this election, [26:48] not talking about the history he's gonna make, [26:50] not talking about being the first, [26:52] not talking about, you know, all these other issues [26:54] that don't have anything to do with the people of Mississippi. [26:56] He is talking about beef and protein and the economy, [27:00] and talking about being accessible. [27:02] And, you know, you know how we talk about that retail politics [27:05] is what helps win elections? [27:07] I also think if you are an elected official already, [27:09] bad constituent services can help you lose an election. [27:12] Right. [27:13] And Cindy Hyde-Smith does not have, you know, [27:15] she's never actually had to campaign against anyone. [27:17] She's told people to choose another protein [27:19] if beef was too expensive. [27:20] Choose another protein. [27:21] This is my, this is my favorite. [27:22] Did he turn this into an ad? [27:23] Yes. [27:24] She's another senator. [27:25] Yes. [27:26] Yeah, it's good. [27:27] On price of beef continuing to go up. [27:29] You know, you have so many proteins to choose from. [27:31] Pick another protein? [27:33] Shit, I'd rather pick another senator instead. [27:36] Pick another protein? [27:39] She done lost her damn mind. [27:41] I'd rather pick another senator. [27:43] Pick another protein? [27:46] What the? [27:47] Pick another senator instead. [27:50] It's so good. [27:50] It's so crazy. [27:51] And so, Mississippi, I just think the ground is changing [27:55] in the, in the, in the state. [27:57] It was last year, January, last year. [28:00] Democrats broke the supermajority in the Mississippi State Senate. [28:02] Yeah. Yeah. [28:03] Something is happening in Mississippi. [28:04] Obviously, like we look at these things like they're dots and is it possible that, one, [28:14] everything is in question and I'm not saying it's technically a toss up, but everything should [28:18] be discussed. [28:19] Nothing should be ignored because Trump has been so disastrous for every American. [28:23] Like, he's almost post-partisan political catastrophe. [28:27] But two, the places that have been forgotten want to tell, I think, the country, like, hey, [28:34] if you pay attention to us, we may be open to, like, it feels like there are two things going on. [28:38] One coming from on high, from Trump's neglect, and one coming from the ground. [28:43] I have talked to so many voters, Nicole, that have said, I want to send a message. [28:48] And that, right, and that is a little bit different than when we talk, like, some people say, you know, [28:53] I want to protect my family and I want to, you know, I want better education and they do still want that. [28:58] But they're also saying, I want people to understand that we're here. [29:02] And there's so much desperation for those of us that have been, like, around and hitting the ground as much as we have. [29:09] Everything I take from every city, every district, every state is that people are desperate for someone to fix their lives. [29:16] And these are lives that have been neglected for years, right? [29:21] And they're willing to try new things. [29:23] And so I think for Democrats who have, you know, largely ignored the South, they do that at their detriment. [29:30] Because Mississippi, for example, has a huge amount of Black voters who have been untapped by the apparatus. [29:37] And if you take seriously, and Democrats say this all the time, we're going to run everywhere. [29:42] It's like, kind of, like, they say that, but then they don't actually always do it. [29:46] And so we're living in a world where Donald Trump has given them a gift. [29:50] And the gift is, like, how terrible he has been at making good of the promises he's made to voters over and over. [29:57] And not even, because, you know, you know, sometimes you go and you try to, as you know, [30:01] you get in that White House, you want to make those promises, [30:03] but then, you know, you can't do it because of Congress or, like, you know, business or whatever. [30:08] He isn't even trying. Like, he's not trying. [30:10] Well, no, and he has Congress and business. [30:12] Exactly. [30:12] He literally has, like, he has the oligarchy that stood shoulder to shoulder with him. [30:16] He has everybody. [30:17] And he's still not trying to work on the things that will make their lives better. [30:21] Because he broke it. The tariffs. [30:22] He's literally around taking a glue gun and gluing gold appliques around the Oval Office. [30:28] So, like, if you are a voter, if you are a voter who is not just living the paycheck to paycheck, [30:35] but every month you are paying off bills that are late, right? [30:39] To pay, robbing Peter to pay Paul. [30:41] If you're doing that every single month and you're seeing the president not pay attention to that, [30:45] you hear him saying that what you, your lived reality isn't happening, [30:49] the amount of money is leaving your pockets isn't a problem, [30:53] that if you, it's okay to suffer because of the war on Iran, [30:56] because that is the American thing to do. [30:58] That is not working. [30:59] And so, he has given Democrats a huge opening to be able to do things that they haven't been able to do before. [31:06] It is expensive, right? [31:07] And it takes a lot of resources and folks on the ground. [31:10] But the opportunity is there. [31:12] Mississippi is only possible because of the, like, the people in the state are ready to meet the moment, [31:17] but there has also been investment in the infrastructure. [31:20] And, you know, people say a lot of things about Ken Martin, [31:22] but one thing he has done is make sure the state Democratic parties get the money that they need to operate, [31:29] to have that infrastructure. [31:31] The DNC gave extra money to help Democrats break that supermajority in the Mississippi State Senate. [31:37] And that matters. [31:38] And I think when people on the ground in some of these places, Mississippi especially, [31:42] people like the fact that people are paying attention to Mississippi. [31:46] Because, as you know, as people in Georgia always say, [31:50] the South got something to say. [31:50] The South does have something to say. [31:52] And there are many things that are happening in the state that, [31:55] because the national spotlight wasn't on them, it's like nobody cared about it. [31:58] But there's been a lot of movement. [32:00] And I just, I do think that the time is right. [32:03] The last thing I will just say is, [32:04] I think we forget about how many people in this country are, like, [32:07] going to food banks and penny pension. [32:09] For the first time of their lives. [32:11] Yeah. [32:11] Do you remember those images from the beginning of the pandemic of the food banks? [32:15] Like, the pandemic was so visually haunting, right? [32:18] And the images of, like, empty cities all over the world. [32:22] Empty Times Square. [32:23] And then, for me, I almost couldn't speak looking at the lines at the food banks. [32:28] There were people in, like, really expensive cars who obviously were living paycheck to paycheck [32:33] and never thought they'd find themselves in a three-hour line at a food bank. [32:36] But because the world stopped like that and they lost their jobs like that, [32:41] there they were, like, looking for charity from their neighbors and their communities. [32:45] And to even get to that point is, for a lot of families, devastating, humiliating. [32:53] And it makes them want something different, even if it doesn't line up with what they thought their personal politics were. [33:00] It is hard to, like, tell people in Washington, D.C. and New York sometimes, like, how bad it is, right? [33:07] During COVID, it was easy to see how bad it is, I think. [33:10] And what happened during COVID is still happening. [33:12] People who had great jobs, right? [33:15] Who lived their lives, you know, middle of the road, didn't really want for anything. [33:20] They were able to get their kids food, they were able to get gas, put them in dance, all in one day in that workout. [33:27] That is not the case anymore. [33:28] There's so much pain in this country. [33:31] And people that have the power to fix it aren't doing it. [33:34] And when you talk to someone who is telling you for the first time in their lives they had to go ask for help, [33:42] the American story is that of people who don't do that, [33:46] that you actually, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you got them. [33:49] You hustle until you can hustle no more and you will get what you deserve in this life, [33:54] which we know isn't fully true. [33:55] A lot of that is a myth, but it is what we've been telling people. [33:58] And so they've done all the right things. [34:00] They have done every single thing that this country has demanded of them, [34:03] and yet they still can't pay for food. [34:06] They still can't pay for gas. [34:07] Some people are making decisions right now about whether or not they can get gas to go to a funeral or eat. [34:15] It's chaotic. [34:17] Obviously, I'm from Omaha, Nebraska. [34:19] Go Big Red. [34:20] And I went home maybe two months ago. [34:22] And my mom took me around, you know, the city. [34:24] I went to my favorite, you know, chicken spot. [34:26] I went to the North Omaha Visitor Center, did all the things. [34:29] And when we were standing in line, you know, ordering our lunch at Time Out Foods, okay, [34:34] one of the best chicken places in the city, my first job, bumping into people we knew. [34:40] We were just talking to them. [34:41] I did not realize that there was an influx of people who have been going to the community health centers. [34:48] There's a community health center right in the heart of North Omaha. [34:50] It's called Charles Drew Health Center. [34:52] And they have just had an influx of people, and they're struggling to serve them. [34:57] And that just really brought the health care conversation home for me because, well, where did the influx come from? [35:04] Well, there's been a lot of Medicaid cuts. [35:05] People can't afford the Medicare, but also the Obamacare subsidies were not extended. [35:09] So there are folks that decided to just go without health care so someone else in their family could have it. [35:14] And so maybe the only place they can get care is at the Charles Drew Health Center because maybe they don't want to go to the Planned Parenthood, but that is also seeing people. [35:21] And so it is bad. [35:24] And because it is so bad, to the points that we're all making, people are hopefully make some different decisions that will be very consequential for the entire country in November. [35:32] But I would note, and I just want to caution people, that what happens this November is not indicative of what is going to happen in the presidential because people are making very specific decisions right now about their state, their senators, their governors, and their house members because of what they are dealing with right now. [35:50] It's something in people's brains that switch when you start talking about a presidential candidate. [35:54] Right. I also think the sense that I get from folks is that it's bad, but that it doesn't, they don't feel like it has to be. [36:01] Like they're confused as why it's bad. [36:04] This is all bad on purpose. [36:05] Right. It's like someone's doing this to us. [36:08] And I think that is something that is different than when I've been on the road before. [36:10] Look, we have, um, some pressures, um, to start looking ahead to the presidential Wednesday morning, right? [36:19] Well, if Mark Elias will still be in court, we'll, you know, Ali Belsch will still be counting and someone will turn to one of us and say like, and who's the winner in the 2028? [36:27] Right. Um, and, and depending on how much coffee we have or have not had, something, it comes spilling out of our mouths. [36:33] What's your thoughts on that conversation? [36:36] I think we are going to see this, this primary for the Democrats and the Republicans is going to be very similar to, I think, what we saw in the Democratic primary in 2020. [36:45] 2019, 2020, there was a, a whole lot of candidates, a whole lot of debates, tiers, all the things, tiers, T-I-E-R-S, not T-E-A-R-S. [36:54] There'll be some of those too. [36:55] There might be some T-E-A-R-S. [36:57] Um, and I think that's what we're going to see. [36:59] I am of the belief that the person who is the Democratic nominee, we probably aren't even talking about them yet. [37:04] Yeah. [37:05] Or, they're on the scene and everybody is like dismissing them as like, they're not the person. [37:09] Because at this time in 2008, or even 2007, at that point, it was 06, nobody was talking about Obama. [37:15] They didn't think, they said he might run for president, but nobody thought that he was a serious, like, he could win it, right? [37:21] Even in 2019, I went and met with almost all of the Democratic presidential candidates. [37:26] And I obviously ended up going to work for then Vice President Biden, but Joe Biden was not the person people thought was going to win that primary. [37:34] And so, a primary process is going to reveal a lot. [37:38] And because of that, I think we're going to see people get in much earlier than usual. [37:42] Elizabeth Warren announced December 2018. [37:45] I think we will see a lot of December 2026 potential announcements. [37:50] There's so much healing that I feel like the country needs that I wonder, like, do you think it's going to be driven by temperament, leadership, tone, ability to speak to like our sort of, if you're, if you love the country, if you love the Constitution, most people are pretty broken hearted. [38:05] And everyone is struggling with something economic and something that makes them feel like this isn't what the country is about. [38:12] Or do you really think all the heat is around these policy divides? [38:15] Well, what did we say the other, Eugene and I have been having this robust conversation about how far too many Democrats, some of my Democratic friends, focus on the policy and not the politics that makes the policy possible. [38:27] And I think in this primary, we are going to see some, to Eugene's point, some candidates that really want to elevate the specific policy. [38:36] The white papers. [38:37] The white papers. [38:38] But they do not have the politics and the plan for how to make that policy a reality. [38:44] And then we will see some people who have amazing rhetoric, who are great orators, who the campaigning is right, but they may be a little light on the policies. [38:52] And that is why the debate stages are going to be crucial and critical. [38:56] And frankly, why the Democratic National Committee is going to be very, very important, because they are the ones that will dictate that process. [39:02] And it is their job, frankly, the party got one job in the primary, to help the voters, the Democratic primary voters, pick a nominee. [39:11] And one of the ways in which they can do that effectively is to provide as many opportunities for as many people as possible to see these candidates and have these candidates answer a range of questions. [39:21] But if they are coordinating spaces where all they're being asked about are boys' and girls' bathrooms, that is not going to speak to the real issues people have. [39:31] And the policy or the politics. [39:32] I think that the, I don't know who it's going to be, but I think the person who will be the Democratic nominee is going to be the person who can tell people, make them feel one way. [39:41] And it's that it doesn't have to feel like this, right? [39:45] Like, I think, to your point about, like, the healing, right? [39:48] And Warnock is one that's very good at this, is, like, you don't have to feel like this. [39:53] Well, Ossoff, like, like, like, Ossoff to me is, to me, like, everything Ossoff says about corruption and how criminally corrupt everyone is, he's speaking to 100% of Americans. [40:05] Like, I was in the Republican Party. [40:07] Like, voters don't want that either. [40:09] And I think polls bear that out. [40:11] Like, to me, there's so much universal content available to the Democratic Party that I worry when I hear things like the policy debates are going to be central. [40:20] Like, that makes me feel ill. [40:22] You should be concerned. [40:23] We should all be concerned. [40:24] I think there are people like to Simone's point that will try to make it. [40:26] I think we as, you know, the media apparatus that's going to be asking these folks questions, we'll ask them a lot of questions about policy. [40:31] I think it is on them to guide the conversation into a place of what you're talking about. [40:38] And that, you know, the thing that has been so good from Ossoff on the corruption is not just like, oh, this is so bad, these people are grifting off of you. [40:46] It's that they're grifting off of you and you're broke now. [40:48] Like, that is the thing. [40:50] Right? [40:51] That connection. [40:51] Here's why it matters. [40:52] Which, for 10 years, like, I was covering David Farenthold's emoluments reporting. [40:57] And, like, I could never figure out how to tell the story in a way that people understood that it is zero-sum. [41:02] Right? [41:02] Trump's taking from people to enrich himself and it costs us something. [41:06] I want to ask both of you how you became who you are because you haven't come of age as humans, but professionally you've come of age covering and living through 10 years of Trump. [41:16] I didn't, right? [41:17] Like, I came up in a simpler time. [41:22] I won't sugarcoat it as better. [41:24] But I should say, having been at Dick Cheney's funeral, I never would have guessed at the height of the very polarizing wars that began during George Bush's presidency that Rachel Maddow would be seated much closer to the front than, you know, John Bolton. [41:38] But the kaleidoscope has been shaken so violently that it doesn't resemble anything that it resembled when I was working in politics. [41:44] And I wonder how you think working in a time where Trump is the dominant political figure on the right and covering politics in that period has shaped you guys personally. [41:55] Not Nicole trying to bring it. [41:58] You know what? [41:58] Nicole does this on her show every day. [41:59] That's why you got two hours. [42:01] Right. [42:01] Okay? [42:01] She's taking it to therapy. [42:02] That's why she got two hours. [42:04] So people need to breathe. [42:05] I just, I try to ground myself in history and have always tried to do that because Eugene and I, we're both millennials, but there are people younger than us whom all they remember really is Donald Trump being president. [42:19] And so because all they know is Trump in this political moment that we're currently living through, some of the people younger than us, their vantage points, I think, are very narrow. [42:28] And I think it is very important for us to remind people all the time, and I've tried to remind myself because my first election was Obama in 2008. [42:36] Like, I was a freshman in college, and I went to go cast my ballot for President Obama. [42:40] Like, I have seen, from my own vantage point, like, my vote making a difference. [42:47] I have seen, from the work that I have decided to do, my participation, right, making a difference in what these elected officials or these would-be politicians, so on and so forth, do. [42:57] But there's a whole generation of people who do not feel that what we talk about every day, you know, Nicole, what you and I used to do every day, is not the way in which to bring change in this country. [43:10] And so I often try to remind myself of history about what this country was prior to Trump to help me think about, like, what the country can be after him. [43:20] Because he is going to leave. [43:22] He might not go willingly, but he will be gone. [43:25] And when he is gone, Trumpism and all these other things and all the people that helped build him up will still be here, right? [43:30] It'll still be a dogfight, just a different kind. [43:33] And if the people in the pro-democracy coalition, if the folks, you know, that came up like myself that are still, you know, working in democratic politics, if they don't have an expansive, you know, a term that, you know, I stole it from Eugene and now it's all in my next book. [43:50] If they don't have an expansive imagination about what is possible, like, we are not going to go anywhere. [43:55] And so the Trump stuff has just reminded me that, like, okay, some of the rules, some of the things they said were not possible, some of those rules were fake. [44:01] So there's some things that we could just move to the side. [44:03] Like, it is not true that you cannot executive order your way through something. [44:07] I think what's true is that you should get caught trying. [44:11] If Donald Trump has taught us anything, I think people should get caught trying, be willing to, you know, do it and ask for permission later. [44:19] And Democratic voters have seen that, independents, Republicans. [44:22] Everybody across the country has seen what Donald Trump has been able to do, in my opinion, not for good. [44:27] So there is an alternative to that that can be used for greatness, but you got to be willing to do it. [44:33] Like a more audacious tactic in furtherance of common good. [44:36] Yes. [44:37] I will say, and I wish I had an answer like Simone's that felt a little more hopeful. [44:41] I think that, like, the coming up in, you know, the first election that I really covered was 2016, right? [44:49] In 2012, I had just graduated college. [44:52] And so this era of how we treat each other has just made me sadder as a person, frankly. [44:58] Like, it's hardened me a little bit, too. [45:00] And I think that's happening across the country. [45:03] And so I feel like I'm constantly fighting to get back to myself, which I feel like is a more hopeful, optimistic person. [45:11] But then the more that you're kind of around this world that we operate in, where the ways in which people are talking to each other and, like, the way we're treating each other, it is disturbing. [45:24] And watching a president, whether he was a candidate, you know, in 2016, to being a president and, like, just watching how it is just torn at the fabric of who I believed America was has been shocking. [45:37] I think there are a lot of folks who are living like that. [45:39] Like, you think about the kids that are voting for the first time this time around. [45:43] They were eight years old in 2016, right? [45:46] They were eight when this happened. [45:48] So this is all they know. [45:50] And, you know, I am a military brat, right? [45:52] My family is very patriotic. [45:54] Like, my grandfather was a Baptist preacher in South Carolina in the 50s and 60s who was trying to make sure that Black people could vote. [46:01] So the story of my family is one that is rooted in believing in this country and believing that it has to work and fighting to make the country and the leaders of this country make good on the promises in those founding documents. [46:15] And what I found as I've gotten older and, you know, for a while, I was like, maybe it's just getting older. [46:20] You just, like, see things for how they are. [46:22] And I don't think that that's true. [46:24] I think what's happening actually is the terseness of our politics, the pervasiveness of our politics on people's daily lives and how they speak to each other and treat each other has made us all harsher. [46:37] I want to jump through the camera and shake you guys and promise you that you can change it because I don't view you, Eugene, like, that you say it's hardened you like it's the most surprising thing you've said in an hour. [46:48] Like, I find you as someone who people, like, can feel through the screen, like, the size of your audience and your followings is because you haven't let it harden you. [46:58] And to me, that is, like, its own act of absolute, you know, rebellion. [47:04] Yeah. [47:05] What I have learned about Eugene, because at this point we spend entirely too much time together, we're literally on a podcast together. [47:11] Sometimes he's co-hosting the weeknight, I'm on the phone with him. [47:14] My husband is always like, are you on the phone with Eugene again? [47:16] Yes, I have something to tell him, but I think that what I have learned is that the, what you say has hardened you, I think is just, is, is, is also actually your, your, your hopefulness. [47:30] You know, like, you, you say this thing has hardened you, but you continuously, you know, seek out the opposite. [47:37] You ask more questions, you are looking for, you have not yet accepted that this is the answer. [47:42] You think it's crazy, but you haven't accepted this is the answer. [47:44] I feel like it has to be better, y'all. [47:46] Like, I am the product of, and now I'm getting all emotional, I am, I am the product of people who live through slavery. [47:54] Like, my family was dropped off and sold into slavery in South Carolina, and my family has never left. [48:00] Both sides have never left, right? [48:02] And the place that my grandmother lives and my mother grew up was literally, like, used to be where, like, slaves everywhere. [48:11] Right? Like, the, the fields that we played in as kids used to be where people were beaten and killed if they didn't do what was told. [48:17] And so, like, I know it has been worse, right? [48:21] Like, I am a product of that. [48:22] I am only here because of that. [48:24] And so, my hope is that we can, that strength that they have all exhibited, the strength that, as flawed as they were, and they were very flawed, the men that built this country, like, there's a fight there. [48:36] There's a, there's a, there's a yearning for togetherness that is, is written throughout the, the history of this country and every one of our lives. [48:46] And so, I, like, the, the hardening is there, but I'm constantly trying to, like, and every day with a hammer, or sometimes a chisel, depending on how tough it is that day, a baby chisel, like, trying to fight through it. [48:58] Because I feel like our role, also, as folks in the media, is to help guide people to understand their own agency, right? [49:07] That, like, they can make it so it doesn't have to feel that way. [49:10] And also that you pay these people who operate and, and run this country. [49:15] So, you get to dictate how it ends. [49:17] And it, like, has to work. [49:19] Every, you know, every four years, either Democrat or Republican say, I'm, I'm leaving the country. [49:23] No one's leaving. [49:24] No one's going anywhere. [49:25] Like, you're staying right here. [49:25] There's no way to go. [49:26] There's no way to go. [49:27] The right wing is, is growing everywhere. [49:29] Like, it's not, it's not changing on the, on the planet. [49:33] And so, the question is, what do you do while you're here? [49:37] How do we actually, like, make it work? [49:39] Because for me, as a gay Black man from, with roots in South Carolina, like, it has to work. [49:46] This thing that we're all doing, this democracy has to work. [49:49] And it will because we are ensuring that it is. [49:52] Like, I think history is going to record the work that we are all doing. [49:56] The stories that we are telling, the people in the streets that have risen up through [50:00] the No Kings, through those people in Memphis who, you know, fought through the redistricting [50:04] and organized. [50:05] The history is going to record Minneapolis. [50:07] Yes. [50:08] The students in North Carolina A&T that literally marched through the streets to early vote the [50:13] other day. [50:13] The history is going to record that these were the moments and the things and the people [50:19] that made the eventual progress that we are going to see possible. [50:23] We are doing it right now. [50:25] We are in another post-Reconstruction period. [50:27] And it was during Reconstruction, the collapse of Reconstruction, frankly, when so many of [50:33] the foundational organizations and people and the progress that we now are fighting to [50:38] defend, the foundation was laid for it when the country was at its lowest, when it had, [50:44] you know, I play spades, when the country had reneged on its promise to Black people [50:50] in this country because, you know, the conditions change. [50:53] And it was during that time that, like, many of the HBCUs were built and established. [50:57] It was during that time that the NAACP was established. [51:00] The foundational work that, frankly, the Federalist Society ended up copying, which was what was [51:06] happening at Howard University and that pipeline from those Black lawyers into the NAACP Legal [51:10] Defense Fund, that is what the conservative movement copied on some of this. [51:15] The innovation is there. [51:16] And I think the thing that keeps me hopeful, but also the reason I'm, like, screaming from [51:22] the mountaintops every night, it feels like, is because we have to understand that. [51:26] And I want the people out there who are watching to understand that we are the people. [51:30] It is literally on us. [51:32] And there is no small thing that we are doing because history is going to record... [51:36] that we made a difference, that the small things we did were actually the big things [51:40] that brought us to the other side. [51:43] I think, and I think you said it in a commencement address, that what we're doing right now is [51:47] called building. [51:48] Yeah. [51:48] Right, right. [51:49] Yeah, we build. [51:50] They built post-Reconstruction. [51:53] And when I gave the commencement at Spelman and the women who came together at the collapse [51:58] of Reconstruction to build Spelman College with just 11 women in a basement, in a church [52:04] in Georgia, they did not have the idea that the people and the women across this country [52:11] that are leading corporations and powering innovation, that those women would be educated [52:16] in their legacy. [52:17] But they knew they had to do something. [52:19] And so we are building right now. [52:21] And then when the times are toughest, that's when you got to build anyway. [52:24] And so that's what we are doing. [52:26] And they want us to get tired. [52:28] They, Trump, and all of them, the people that believe in Trumpism, they hope that we will [52:33] not steal our spines for this moment. [52:36] I think they also don't want us to find each other. [52:38] Yeah. [52:39] And I think this was, right? [52:40] Like, we're only defeatable. [52:44] I don't know if that's a word. [52:45] Beatable? [52:46] I like defeatable. [52:48] If we never have these conversations, and this took me, actually, a former general, [52:52] former senior tip-top general in the first Trump era said to me that I had to learn to [52:57] enjoy the brawl. [52:58] I think he saw some of, like, the pain that I felt in the earliest days. [53:02] I mean, the earliest news cycles of the second Trump term, like, that'll end up in the time [53:06] capsule. [53:07] Like, nobody would come on my show except Mark Elias and Tim Miller, like, and Michelle [53:11] Noor. [53:11] Like, we literally, like, couldn't book the show because people were like, what the fuck? [53:15] We picked, like, he's been indicted 34 times. [53:21] Like, Kamala Harris is the sitting vice president. [53:23] Like, she could certainly run the fucking country. [53:25] Like, what? [53:26] And I remember thinking, like, everyone picked this. [53:28] And I would, like, go to the store, and I would go to pick up, and I was like, oh, [53:34] no, nobody picked this. [53:36] Like, nobody wants this. [53:37] Not even, like, Thomas Massey. [53:39] Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't want this anymore. [53:41] Right, right. [53:42] They don't want everyone to know that nobody wants this. [53:46] Oh, and that they have power. [53:48] And I think, like, this is why, for me, it's, like, the agency question is so important. [53:53] You know, that first six months of the second Trump time, I was like, ooh, no one, they [53:58] not hearing the streets. [53:59] I was like, y'all not read it. [53:59] Did you not know? [54:00] What is happening? [54:01] And I think everyone was shell-shocked. [54:03] But then you see that first time where millions of people take to the streets for no kings. [54:06] Minneapolis. [54:07] Right, and in Minneapolis, you're like, oh, it's there. [54:10] We just had to be reminded about community. [54:13] They don't want us to know that we can actually talk to each other and that, like, there is [54:18] a world in which, you know, caring about your neighbor is the way to go. [54:22] There is a world where selfishness is not the way you have to operate in your daily lives [54:26] or in the way that you operate in politics or culture. [54:28] Like, caring about the person that lives next door and the person that lives in the state [54:32] over is actually also a profound way to live your life. [54:35] And so the only way to do that is to hold hands and jump together. [54:40] And sometimes you don't know where you're jumping, right? [54:42] You're just like, hell, grab our homesuckers, and you just, like, go. [54:45] You, like, have to go. [54:46] And I think, like, that is one of the things that has, if anything, has given me hope, [54:50] like, over, especially, like, this January to now, is that people looking around and saying, [54:56] nope, like, the people of Minnesota in the coldest temperatures, like, literally their eyes [55:01] are frozen shut because the tears are so cold. [55:04] Them just saying, no, you can't do this to us. [55:08] You cannot do this to us. [55:10] And when you have people in the country as, you know, seen as a beacon of light, as America has, [55:16] being able to say, no, no, I get to tell you how this country runs, person in a seat of power. [55:23] You don't get to tell me anything. [55:25] I think that has been the salve to a lot of the feelings that we had in that first six months. [55:30] It's like, community. [55:32] It's people looking at each other as family in this weird country that we live in. [55:37] Eugene, I think many people did not believe it was going to be this bad. [55:40] Now, the 92% we was trying to, and Nicole Wallace, we was trying to tell y'all, okay, [55:45] that these folks had a plan. [55:47] And to your point about community, people are like, wait, no, not the lady at my coffee shop. [55:53] Right. [55:54] Not the parent in the pickup line at my school. [55:57] Not, not my nanny. [55:59] Okay. [55:59] Like, come on, let's, if we want to be honest, this is the things I was hearing in the group [56:02] chats. [56:02] So I think people really thought that some of the worst things that many of us warned about [56:09] Donald Trump and this potential second presidency, some of the worst things would be relegated [56:14] to a very small, specific group of people. [56:16] And what I think, I hope everybody has now seen is that the heinousness of this administration [56:22] knows no bounds. [56:24] So it is jarring, but we have to have an expansive imagination about how terrible shit can get. [56:30] We can also have an expansive imagination about how great it could be if we just get our shit together. [56:35] Right, right. [56:37] You guys are two of the best people I know. [56:38] Thank you so much for being on this podcast. [56:40] And honestly, anytime you need a guest at the last minute, just text me. [56:46] I'm yours. [56:47] I'm your people. [56:50] You're on. [56:51] You're booked. [56:51] You're one of the best people, truly. [56:53] I have to tell people, because people don't know this about Nicole. [56:56] Nicole has a book series that I have been obsessed with forever. [57:02] 18 Acres. [57:03] It's classified. [57:04] You're so nice for reading it. [57:04] Madam President. [57:05] Some years ago, you had a little Bob on the view. [57:08] I was pregnant with my son. [57:11] It's literally 15 years I was on book tour, like pregnant. [57:15] Yeah, like eight months pregnant. [57:16] And it is, from that moment of reading the book, and you, there's a woman, President Charlotte [57:22] Kramer, and just reading the book and seeing all of the hopefulness, right? [57:30] Like, you can see in the way that you wrote that book series, that the hopefulness that [57:35] this country could be. [57:37] And it's all up in there. [57:39] And so, I just, I'm so glad that you worked with you. [57:41] It's hidden. [57:41] It's deeply hidden, though, that you saw it. [57:43] You gotta read it a few times, like I have. [57:44] I've read it many, many times. [57:45] No, it was my, the series was like my PTSD from, um, 08, from McCain reading me, um, [57:53] Hemingway, like in hotel rooms, knowing he was gonna lose. [57:57] Palin broke my heart a million different ways before she embarrassed, you know, McCain [58:01] or the Republican. [58:01] Like, so the book, and then watching how Hillary was treated, like that was a really traumatic [58:06] cycle to be a part of. [58:08] Um, so I wrote those three books, and you're so nice to have read them. [58:10] Tara, Tara was the, the vice president who was very Sarah Palin-esque. [58:14] Yeah, like I wrote about a fictually mentally unstable woman who kind of knew she had problems. [58:19] And now, like, Trump is president talking about men's asses. [58:22] Like, I don't even, like, we're like the real story outpaces fiction. [58:26] I just, I don't know what I would ever write again. [58:28] You're the best, Nicole. [58:29] You are also the best people. [58:30] Thank you, guys. [58:31] Thank you so much. [58:32] Thank you. [58:33] It's Rachel. [58:43] I am so glad to see you at the end of that clip, because this is where I get to tell you [58:46] about a new way to watch all our clips, and all of our shows, and everything on MSNOW [58:52] on your phone, or your tablet, or your laptop. [58:55] You can watch things live or recorded. [58:57] Plus, you can ask me and all the other hosts and reporters questions in our weekly live chats. [59:02] You can go to ms.now slash membership, or just click below. [59:08] Thanks.