'TOUGH one for Democrats' Watch a timeline of the allegations against Graham Platner

[0:01] As we just asked Senator Alyssa Slotkin, there is brand new reporting. It has broken since I've been [0:07] on the air. It's in The New York Times, and it is about Maine's Democratic Senate candidate [0:12] Graham Plattner. He's currently the frontrunner to become the Democratic challenger to Republican [0:17] Senator Susan Collins in that pivotal midterm race in Maine. After news reports surfaced that [0:24] he had sent explicit messages to women while he was married, several women came forward to The [0:29] New York Times about their experiences with Plattner. From that new New York Times reporting, [0:34] quote, in interviews with The New York Times on Wednesday, several women described Mr. Plattner [0:40] as a fun and caring partner and said they felt safe with him. Some remain friends with him to this day, [0:46] years after their relationships ended. But in extensive conversations over the past two months, [0:52] three other women who had been romantically involved with Mr. Plattner offered a far more [0:57] complicated assessment describing volatile and toxic relationships that were unsettling and at [1:03] times emotionally wrenching. Mr. Plattner could be charming and charismatic, they recalled in interviews, [1:08] but also demeaning to women and, in at least one case, even physically threatening. He drank heavily [1:15] and was regularly unfaithful, end quote. It's important to tell you, our viewers, that one of the three [1:22] is a conservative activists who has worked on Republican campaigns, but she says that she would [1:27] have spoken out even if Graham Plattner was a Republican candidate. She disputes Plattner's claim [1:33] that he did not know that the tattoo on his chest was a Nazi symbol. From that part of this new reporting, [1:39] quote, Mr. Plattner, she said, knew when they were dating years ago that the tattoo was a Nazi symbol [1:45] and that he called it my totem cop. The Plattner campaign, quote, strongly disputes that claim that [1:53] he knew about the tattoo and that he told her about it. Graham Plattner will be Chris Hayes' guest in his [2:00] first national interview since his story broke this afternoon. That happens tonight at eight o'clock [2:04] on All In. For our coverage, I want to bring in political analyst and host of the Bulwark podcast, [2:10] Tim Miller, with me at the table as I've been going through this story and this reporting. [2:15] is my friend and colleague, our political analyst, Molly John Fass. She's the host of Fast Politics [2:20] and a New York Times contributing opinion writer. Tim Miller, I start with you. [2:27] Hey, look, Nicole, this is a complicated one. It's ongoing, and so there's some elements to it. [2:31] So I'll just kind of walk through what I think are the key parts. You know, number one, I think [2:36] Senator Slotkin said, look, any accusations of any type of inappropriate behavior around women [2:43] should be taken seriously. And the Democrats have shown that they've taken it seriously in the past, [2:47] whether that be Andrew Cuomo or Al Franken. And I think that the Democrats have credibility on this [2:52] issue for a reason. In this story, it is only the one woman that was the Republican activist [2:58] that makes any accusations of him putting his hands on her. The other women don't say that. [3:06] It's more just about kind of drinking and volatile behavior. And so, you know, I think that the [3:11] question is, like, what else could possibly come up? And I think that takes us to the political part [3:16] of this. Like, just to do rank politics here, like, this is an extremely important Senate race [3:21] for our democracy. The Democrats need to pick up four Senate seats to take over the Senate and to [3:28] control Supreme Court nominations, to be able to control the floor for any nominations that Donald [3:33] Trump wants to put forward for attorney general or DNI or any important roles in his administration. [3:38] Like, they have to, you know, those cabinet officials ostensibly will have to be confirmed by the [3:42] Senate. So taking over the Senate is very important. And winning the Senate, it's pretty [3:46] hard to do without Maine. And you just look at the map. And North Carolina, Roy Cooper looks very [3:50] good. A good poll in Ohio for Sherrod Brown. That's two. Then you get into some pretty big red [3:56] states. Iowa, the Democrats have a good candidate. Texas, Tallarico, Alaska, they have a good candidate. [4:01] But those are all states Democrats haven't won in a long time. Democrats have won Maine the last three [4:05] cycles. And all Democrats need to do to win Maine is nominate somebody that gets all the Hillary Clinton, [4:10] Joe Biden, Kamala Harris voters. And so it seems like kind of a silly place to take a big risk. [4:15] And I think that is the strongest case against Plattner, whether you're a huge Plattner fan or a [4:20] Plattner opponent. Like, I think there's a prudential question of, like, is this Senate race the place [4:24] to take this type of risk? I do think the last thing I'd say is I get a little bit frustrated with [4:30] this, and I'm sure some Plattner fans do as well, with, like, all of the focus on this, these things [4:35] that he's done in the past, as compared to what Susan Collins has done as an actual senator. And [4:39] the tattoo thing in particular, I just feel it's incumbent to mention that regardless of what [4:47] you think about his tattoo, which he covered up, he's not proposing any Nazi-like policies. [4:53] And Susan Collins was the chair of the Appropriations Committee when we sent people [4:58] to a foreign gulag based on their race and based on the tattoos they have. So I'm not here to say [5:05] that that was a Nazi policy, but it's certainly a heck of a lot closer than anything that Graham [5:10] Plattner is proposing. And so I just do think that is also important to have in the discussion [5:14] here. Like, Susan Collins controlled the power of the purse, allegedly, at the Senate. If she was [5:18] such a moderate, she could have stopped that. And she could have said, we're not going to fund [5:22] this administration as long as they're sending innocent people to a foreign torture prison based on [5:27] their tattoo. She didn't do that. And so I do get a little bit frustrated when these conversations [5:32] kind of frame her up as some moderate when she's been totally complicit in some very fascistic [5:38] behavior, tattoo-related behavior by this administration. [5:43] I just, I want to thank you for your clarity and your courage and sort of seeing this and being [5:49] able to shove it through a sieve of the substance of what is accused and the stakes of the election. [5:57] I mean, I think that's the whole thing. And I guess all I would, I would add is we are not [6:02] the arbiters of anything, right? It is our job to bring forth the reporting. Maine Democrats will [6:07] decide, I think on Tuesday night, do they want to represent them? And then the broader population [6:12] of Maine will decide, do they want to represent them in Congress? But I think Tim just framed up [6:16] the choices on both those fronts pretty well. Yeah. I mean, I think it's really important to talk [6:21] about this is about what the person will do in the Senate. I did think what Slotkin said was, [6:27] was also really important. You know, violence is a no-go. And remember, this is a person who will, [6:34] you know, ultimately be in the Senate making judgment calls. And if it's a person who drinks [6:40] heavily and has personality changes, you know, I'm sober 28 and a half years. And I think that this, [6:47] if there's a substance issue here, that's a big deal. And, you know, we have seen Democrats, [6:54] you know, I just think releasing the moral high ground. And again, obviously, this is up to the [7:00] voters of Maine. And this election is so important. And this, but I do think also what has been good [7:07] about Democrats is that they've had, you know, they haven't said, well, like, this guy's really [7:11] popular. So we're going to let, you know, like what, what Republicans are with Trump. And so I do [7:17] think it's, you know, it's such a, it's a tough moment. And, but I do agree, like the Senate map [7:24] is critical. And Donald Trump is a president who is totally out of control. And Republicans have shown [7:30] they have no interest in checking his power. Tim, what do you say to people who look at all of [7:38] the attention we have justifiably and perhaps belatedly given to the Epstein accusers and [7:44] want to understand how this story fits into that frame? [7:52] Well, I look, and obviously there's a material difference, which is the Epstein accusers were [7:56] children. And I guess not in every single case, he also abused adult women. But, you know, that, [8:02] you know, I think adds a level of gravity to it. But I think that one part of, one way to [8:08] contextualize that, that I do think is relevant is, look, you know, as a former Republican, [8:14] am I the best person to say this? But I think a lot of Democrats would say this, particularly [8:17] Democratic women. Like you look back at maybe the Bill Clinton era of the presidency, you look back [8:24] at how Democrats dealt with Epstein prior to, you know, the kind of the latest revelations when [8:30] Trump came in. I think some of them look back and say, hey, maybe we should have taken these [8:33] accusations more seriously than we did. So that's not to lump Plattner in with any of those. Like I said, [8:38] I think that this New York Times article, you know, there are some serious accusations from one [8:44] person and then the rest, you know, depending on kind of your definition of serious, but nothing [8:49] related to violence or nothing related to sexual assault or anything like that. And so, you know, [8:54] I think that Graham Plattner obviously tonight will have a chance to, you know, kind of explain [8:57] himself to Chris Hayes. And I think people should hear him out. This is not to say he should be thrown [9:01] out. But I do think in the context of the Epstein story, you know, a lot of Democrats can maybe learn [9:07] from lessons and say, we should take the accusations seriously. We should look at them. We should [9:10] consider them and do what's right by people that are victims. And we should also, you know, not throw [9:15] the baby out with the bathwater because there are bad faith attacks against people. Like that's a [9:19] challenging tightrope to walk. And I think that's kind of the tightrope that Graham Plattner's on [9:24] right now about which kind of side of that he falls on. I want to read a little bit from this [9:30] New York Times story, which I've read carefully through twice. And this feels like it gets at both [9:38] the allegations and his sort of political position. The New York Times reports this, quote, [9:46] Graham Plattner, 41, a combat veteran, has spoken openly about grappling with his post-traumatic stress [9:51] disorder, depression and drinking that he so resulted from his time in the military. As revelations [9:56] about him have surfaced, including his dismissive remarks online about rape and derogatory comments [10:02] about women, as well as a tattoo he had that is widely recognized as a Nazi symbol, he has said his [10:08] past behavior does not reflect who he is today. Mainers, he has urged, should not judge him for, quote, [10:14] the worst thing I said on the internet on my worst day 14 years ago. Obviously, some of these [10:20] allegations are more recent than 14 years, if I'm doing my bad on live TV math. But some of this will [10:29] be how voters and people who cover him, largely in Maine, assess the credibility of his response to [10:37] this crisis. For sure. And, you know, I got sober when I was 19 and there were things I did as a teenager [10:43] that were not good. And, you know, that is why I got sober. So I do think people can absolutely [10:52] change. And, you know, he was in a very traumatic experience. And what's so complicated about this [10:58] moment in American life is we have come so far as feminists in this country. And then we've had a lot [11:06] of backlashes, including the second election of someone who has all these allegations of all sorts [11:13] of... Just trying to criminally investigate E. Jean Carroll. Right, exactly. And so, and, you know, [11:18] we've seen like Roe v. Wade, which was the law of the land for 50 years, was overturned. So it's a very [11:24] confusing moment to be a feminist. And it's a very complicated moment with how we as a culture grapple [11:32] with this kind of thing. And so we've, you know, we've both gotten it right sometimes and we've [11:37] gotten it wrong other times. And so it's very, it's hard. But the good news is that it's really [11:42] not for any of us to decide. It's for the people of Maine. Graham Plattner, Democratic Senate for [11:48] candidate for Senate in Maine, joins me now. Mr. Plattner, it's good to have you on. Thank you so [11:52] much for doing this. Thanks, Chris. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. [11:57] I just want to say at the start that like, you know, we've had you on before. And I think you and I [12:01] are both people that in other contexts talk about income inequality and health care and [12:05] all those issues, which are extremely important. And we devote a lot of time to on this program. [12:09] We are, this is not, you know, the thing that we spent a lot of time chasing. But, you know, [12:13] there's some serious stuff there I want to go through with you. And I think voters have a right [12:16] to know about it. And I want to start with what Ms. Fifield says about being rough is the term the [12:22] Times. And I'm going to just read you the account so you have it. This is from the Times. Mr. Plattner [12:27] could be rough with her, Ms. Fifield said, particularly when they were drinking, leaving her shaken and [12:31] sometimes afraid. In the interviews, she grappled with how to process her experiences. [12:34] She was quick to know. He never hit me. He never punched me. She said it regularly grabbed [12:38] her by the shoulders, sometimes hard enough to leave marks. On one occasion, yanked her out of [12:42] a cab by her wrist after an argument when she wanted to stay in the car. During one argument, [12:46] she recalled, he twisted her arm behind her back, shoved her into a bedroom and held the door closed [12:50] from the other side so she couldn't get out, telling her to remain there until she was calm. [12:54] Eventually, Ms. Fifield said she fell asleep and left the next morning. It hurt, she said, [12:58] but she added it didn't cause any injury. It didn't break my arm. Did that happen? [13:02] No, it did not. There are some allegations in this piece that I just want to be kind of [13:10] unequivocal about are simply not true. Anything alleging physicality, anything alleging that I knew [13:18] what my tattoo was, these are the statements of someone who's politically motivated. [13:23] In this piece, there's a lot about my struggling, not being a good boyfriend, certainly self-medicating [13:29] with alcohol. And I've been very upfront since the beginning of this campaign that that was a pretty [13:33] dark period of my life after I came back from my combat service. And that's what that combat, [13:39] that's what that kind of life looks like. And so there are things in this that I absolutely [13:45] will take responsibility for and have been speaking about openly for months now. [13:51] But those serious allegations are just not true. [13:55] You did not grab her by the wrist. You did not put your hands on her shoulders. You did not [13:58] push her into a room that you closed the door on. She's lying about that, is what you're saying. [14:03] Yes, that is not true. [14:07] You mentioned the tattoo. So I want to talk about that because [14:10] I think this was troubling to a lot of people. And I think, again, your account of it [14:15] assuaged some of that fear, clearly in main voters, as reflected, again, by reporting and polling. [14:22] She says, same person, that you refer to the tattoo as my Totenkampf, which is the German word for this [14:29] particular Nazi symbol. There is other reporting in Jewish Insider in October in which an anonymous [14:35] acquaintance says you used that same phrase. Did you know what this tattoo was about before last [14:42] October when you said you first became aware of it? [14:47] No, I did not. And I also think it's important to note that it's very likely, and I think that [14:52] she is that same source. She's the person who's been telling people this from the beginning. [14:57] And it's a—so I feel like, you know, we're kind of rehashing the thing we've been through. [15:03] I had that tattoo for 17 years. It's a skull and crossbones. I got it with other Marines who I [15:10] served with in Iraq, in Croatia. And in the time that I had it, I got a security clearance with the [15:15] State Department. I re-enlisted in the United States Army, where I was screened for gang and hate tattoos. [15:20] And I took my shirt off in front of my family, many of whom are Jewish. We even released as a [15:26] campaign a video, which you're putting up on the screen right now, of me dancing at my brother's [15:32] wedding to his wife, who is Jewish, and her fully extended Jewish family. And I would not have taken [15:39] my shirt off in that context if I had known. And so any statement saying that I did know is, [15:46] again, totally false. I do want to follow up one place on this, and I don't want to get too [15:51] forensic. But, you know, the Times basically reported that they saw texts of hers, including [15:57] a text in August, I believe August 3rd of last year. This would be before October of last year, [16:02] in which she basically said that you had a, quote, Nazi tattoo, and she joked about how she's going to [16:07] go volunteer for Collins. Now, again, this is a text that got sent. So, like, we can place the time, [16:11] right? This is in August. How does she know it's a Nazi tattoo in August of last year, [16:16] and you don't know it's a Nazi tattoo in August of last year? [16:20] Well, she certainly didn't send that text to me. So whoever she sent it to and was talking to, [16:26] that's, I can't say why, but I will say that I certainly didn't know. And the text messages she's [16:35] sending to friends who may have recognized it, that's, they didn't tell me that. So. [16:42] Can we talk, I want to talk about the piece that came out before this, which was about the, [16:46] what your wife had alerted your internal campaign folks to? And, and just to sort of stipulate to [16:53] get out ahead that, like, I think some people view this as a real betrayal by your former campaign [16:57] manager. And that, that may be true. And I understand. And I also watched the video that [17:02] your wife put out, which I found incredibly compelling and moving about what you've worked [17:07] through. But just to be clear again on the details here, and there's obviously two subtexts here, [17:11] right? This is you facing main voters at a primary and also a general election that's [17:15] going to happen. We all know that, right? We're all on the same page. Were you sending [17:20] sexually explicit messages to other women back in 2023, 2024, as reported in the piece? [17:31] So this is the first time in my life that Amy and I's marriage has been the interest of people [17:38] besides Amy and I. And it's, it's definitely a bit jarring, a bit strange. It's also a marriage [17:46] that is very strong and that I do believe we deserve some privacy. And I will just say this, [17:53] I, at the beginning of our marriage, I made mistakes and Amy held me accountable for them [18:01] and we worked through them. And the work that we did made our marriage significantly stronger. [18:07] And who we are today is an incredibly faithful and happy married couple. Amy is my best friend. [18:14] I love her more than anything else. And quite honestly, the hardest part about this whole campaign [18:22] is I don't get to spend as much time with her as I like to. And so it has been a, yeah, [18:27] it's been a hard experience to have, have gone through this together as a couple long before [18:33] our lives were brought out into the public. And then to have it essentially outed by someone that [18:39] we put our trust in, who then turned around and betrayed Amy's trust and has now turned, [18:46] frankly, our private parts of our marriage into a bit of a public political spectacle. It's, [18:50] it's hard, but it is, but it's our marriage and it's a good marriage and we're very happy in it. [18:57] I'm very happy with each other. And I thank my lucky stars every single day that Amy is my wife and [19:03] that she has given me a lot of, a lot of grace and a lot of love over the years. And I'm a lucky man [19:09] for it. I'm here for me. You don't want to get into specific details and I can, I can respect part [19:14] of that, but I do want to just make sure on the timeline, right? Because I think there's, [19:18] there's two things going through people's heads a little bit here, which is, you know, [19:23] you have talked about self-medicating with alcohol and being pretty messed up when you got back [19:28] in the service and trying to figure out what you're doing and doing things. Maybe you don't, [19:31] you wouldn't stand by now and saying things you wouldn't stand by, but this is 2023. And so there's [19:37] a, there's a difference in the time. And I think the first question is like, when did this stop? [19:41] If it stopped, if there was stuff that you're not proud of that you worked out with your wife, [19:44] you don't want to talk about the details. When did it stop? [19:46] It stopped when it was happening. I mean, like it was a, Amy and I, Amy and I, it happened soon [19:56] after we got married and we dealt with it very, very early in our relationship. And so that's, [20:04] that's when it stopped. [20:05] Are there texts of yours, pictures of yours floating around out there, which again, [20:14] maybe from a time capsule, but people I think are understandably a little nervous. Maybe you'll be [20:21] the nominee, probably be the nominee for the main Senate on Tuesday. And then it's October 10th. [20:29] And here's a text or picture of Graham Plattner. That is not the kind of thing that you want to see. [20:36] Like, are you worried about that? Are there texts like that? [20:42] I'm, I'm not worried about it. I mean, I, I, one, I went, as I've talked to him, I went through my life [20:47] through a number of years struggling and not exactly acting under, with the best behavior. [20:55] I've been very, very open about that. And if people would like to continue to drag things up [21:00] from that time in my life, I'm sure that we are going to see at some point, somebody attempt to do [21:05] exactly that. Just know that these are things that happened before I became a public figure, [21:11] before I got into politics. And as a part of my life, that I'm very happy to talk about and talk [21:17] about the struggles within. And so I do think that as we move forward, you know, what we've built up [21:23] here is really something quite spectacular. It's very new. And I think one of the reasons why it's [21:30] worked so well is because I have been very open with the people of Maine. I go all over the state. [21:37] I've held over 80 town halls and I ask, or I answer questions from Mainers, regardless of what the [21:43] question is. I've made myself very accessible to people and I want them to know about my struggles [21:49] because I firmly believe that if you believe in a transformational politics, you got to believe in [21:54] the ability for people to transform. And my journey is one of transformation. And I'm very happy to talk [22:01] about that earlier part in my life. And I have no doubt that people will attempt to continue to revisit [22:07] Reddit posts, continue to try to revisit parts of my past. But I think what's really important to note [22:13] here is that these are things that I talk about in my past, things that I'm not proud of, but it is a [22:22] past that I had to go through to get where I am today. And I'm very proud of who I am today. And I'm [22:27] very proud of the movement that we've built up here in Maine. Just to be clear, just about revisiting, [22:32] right? I mean, I think channeling concerns, I think, of Democratic voters and Democratic officials and a lot [22:37] of people, right? That it's not a question of revisiting, right? It's new revelations, like [22:40] vis-a-vis, you know, texts or pictures. And I just, I know you want to give some privacy in marriage, [22:45] but I really do feel like I need to get these answers from you, which is like the people you [22:50] were texting with, whatever that was, in whatever context, they were adult women. You knew that [22:55] and it was consensual. Is that true? Yes. And you have that, that you confirmed that you knew their age. [23:05] Yes. Oh God. I mean, yes, of course. We're following new allegations this morning against [23:12] embattled Democratic Senate candidate Graham Plattner. The New York Times spoke with several [23:16] of Plattner's ex-girlfriends, some of whom claim the Maine politician was, quote, volatile and toxic [23:21] during their time together. The Times writes, Plattner could be charming and charismatic, [23:26] they recalled in interviews, but also demeaning to women and in at least one case, even physically [23:30] threatening. One of Plattner's ex-girlfriends who has worked for conservative groups recounted their [23:35] relationship from 2013 to 2015. Quote, Plattner could be rough with her, she said, particularly when they [23:41] were drinking, leaving her shaken and sometimes afraid. She was quick to note that he never hit [23:46] me. He never punched me, but she said he regularly grabbed her by the shoulder, sometimes hard enough [23:51] to leave marks. And on one occasion, yanked her out of a cab by her wrist after an argument when she [23:56] wanted to stay in the car. It's important to note the Times also spoke with several other former [24:01] girlfriends who gave a different account of Plattner, referring to him as, quote, a gentle giant and [24:05] super kind. Plattner himself joined MS Now last night for an exclusive interview to address the [24:11] story. There are some allegations in this piece that I just want to be kind of unequivocal about [24:18] are simply not true. Anything alleging physicality, anything alleging that I knew what my tattoo was, [24:26] these are the statements of someone who is politically motivated. In this piece, there's a lot about my [24:32] struggling, not being a good boyfriend, certainly self-medicating with alcohol. And I've been very [24:37] up front since the beginning of this campaign. That was a pretty dark period of my life after I [24:41] came back from my combat service. And that's what that combat, that's what that kind of life looks [24:48] like. And so there are things in this that I absolutely will take responsibility for and have [24:55] been speaking about openly for months now. But those serious allegations are just not true. [25:00] This is just one of the big stories we've been following all week. We'll break it down with [25:05] our panel co-host of the Nobody Knows Anything podcast and former spokesperson for the Clinton [25:09] campaign, Jesse Larrick. Also with us, Republican strategist Ashley Davis. She worked at the White [25:13] House as Homeland Security Director in the George W. Bush administration. Thank you both for ending the [25:19] week with us. I think first we start with you, Jesse, on this question of Graham Plattner. You knew it [25:23] had to come to you. It's so nice that I'm not explaining something right now. I feel like Republicans often [25:28] have enough to explain. We'll get there. I think for Democrats, I have heard two things. And I [25:34] wonder where you fall on this. I've heard from Democrats who say that this is a smear campaign [25:38] meant to come before the primary in an election that Democrats have been thirsty to unseat Susan [25:44] Collins in. And then I've also heard from Democrats who say this is really serious and the party needs [25:49] to adjudicate it, despite the fact that they feel he could be a good opportunity to flip the Collins [25:53] seat. I mean, where do you fall on this? How do we make sense of it? [25:56] I mean, I think it's unfair to just call it a smear campaign. I think it's clear that there [26:01] are questions about his character and his credibility. And this adds to that. It's an [26:06] uncomfortable situation for Democrats. Obviously, this is a must-win seat. The entire control of [26:12] the Senate might hinge on this race. So I understand why Democrats are loathe to throw him under the bus. [26:18] And at this point in the race, at the same time, I think we have to acknowledge that he has a [26:24] credibility problem that's building at this point. You know, I didn't find his interview with Chris [26:29] Hayes terribly affirming last night. I didn't—he didn't seem super contrite. And so I worry about [26:35] it. You know, still, I would say I don't think a charismatic adulterer with a drinking problem is [26:41] a novel profile for a U.S. senator, unfortunately. [26:44] Yeah. But at the same time, right, in an election cycle—and I have had Democrats say this to me as well, [26:50] actually—in an election cycle where Democrats will make a ton of hay, rightfully so, about Ken [26:55] Paxton and his history in Texas, what do you make of the main profile that Graham Plattner is cutting [27:02] right now? And I think you're right. There are Democrats who say, well, if voters don't care, [27:05] how can we be the ones to adjudicate this? But for Democrats, they're kind of testing how big is [27:09] the tent. And for Republicans watching, what are they making of it? [27:12] And we were talking about this in the green room because Swalwell was out, [27:16] like, almost instantly when his allegations—but they were different. [27:19] They were much different. I don't think this is a campaign ender for him at all. I mean, [27:24] there was—this article was supposed to be devastating. Obviously, it's not good. But if [27:29] I'm reading that and I'm leaving a man, I'm like, oh, he's got mad ex-girlfriends, too, [27:33] whether—and see if it's right or wrong. I mean, whether it's correct or not, or if they're just [27:37] ex-girlfriends. Yeah. [27:38] Um, but he's explaining. And this—the problem is, is it's a drip, drip, drip, drip of negative [27:44] stories about him. And he doesn't want to be explaining right now. He wants to be attacking [27:49] Susan Collins, right? Yeah. [27:51] And she's kind of, like, low drama. So for her, Maine's probably, like— [27:57] There was a really fascinating split screen, I thought, last night of Plattner. Yeah, of Plattner [28:02] here explaining on this story, and Susan Collins being congratulated for taking her 10,000th [28:07] consecutive vote in the Senate. And I wonder if you're— [28:12] That's going to be a campaign ad, I'm sure. [28:13] Right? I mean, but you know what these campaigns look like. I mean, what does this story turn [28:18] into? Even if this is the last shoe to drop, and I think many of us have been warned by [28:21] various strategists of there's more to come, there's more to come. If this is the drip, [28:26] drip, drip, what it looks like through November, what is the state of play then in Maine? [28:30] See, I have always felt that she survived. She survives every time. She—her—the only [28:36] thing she cares about, right or wrong, whether she's a Republican, Democrat, or her constituents, [28:42] she will not do anything. And that's been her reputation. I always thought that that's [28:47] going to be a really hard seat to flip. [28:49] And then Democrats at the same time are saying, well, Trump, with all of his allegations and [28:54] scandals attached to him, is in the White House. They're trying to say, you know, that that makes [28:59] the bar lower for someone like Plattner, and yet these are the very things that they attack [29:04] the president or not, right? Like, it's a very complex situation for Democrats to be in. [29:08] It's definitely complex. I would say I do not think there's an equivalency between Graham [29:12] Plattner and Donald Trump or Ken Paxton. I think with both Paxton and Trump, I have a bigger problem [29:17] with the fact that they are crooks than with the fact that they are adulterers. And the last thing [29:21] I'd say about the 10,000 votes, like, I don't—I think Graham Plattner would rather be talking about [29:25] populist economic policy than his ex-girlfriends. But I don't think that he minds a split screen where [29:30] Susan Collins is being, you know, celebrated for taking her 10,000th consecutive vote. [29:35] He's running very much against, like, the establishment. And, you know, she hasn't [29:39] delivered the things that Maynards want. And so I think 10,000 votes, he's like, keep talking about [29:43] that. [29:43] Yeah, and like, you're here too long. [29:44] Also, like, one of the very things that pushed what would have been Plattner's opponent in the [29:49] primary out in the minds of voters, at least, was the idea that she was—would have been the [29:54] oldest senator sworn in if she were to be elected. And it was the idea of establishment versus not. [29:59] And so I think that is going to still be a thread. You're right. [30:01] Right. And I still like—it still bothers me that the best person that Chuck Schumer thought that [30:05] he could recruit in this moment after the Biden fiasco in 2024 was an octogenarian, you know, [30:12] a soon-to-be octogenarian sitting governor. I just don't think that's the moment we're in. [30:16] Yeah, a misreading of the tea leaves, perhaps. [30:18] Do you think she gets in? I mean, back in? [30:20] I don't. I mean, I—she said the other day, you know, I'm still on the ballot. [30:24] I was like, well, then make the case. Like, I think the best case scenario at this point is [30:28] let the Mainers vote on both of them. And so I don't understand why she wouldn't, [30:34] you know, go all the way in, this sort of 50-50 thing where it's like, I'm on the ballot, [30:37] but I'm not really campaigning. [30:39] Main voters, I think, are fascinating. So we'll watch how they vote. And I'm interested in hearing—we've [30:44] got some folks on the ground who are going to talk to voters. I'm interested in hearing that sound [30:47] as they get it. But then the other thing that I'm watching, if we're looking at how votes are going, [30:51] is what's been going on in the U.S. Senate. And the Republicans that have been willing, [30:55] at least on some of these amendment votes, certainly in the House when it comes to [30:59] an Iran war powers vote, Ukraine funding, there have been some moments of breakage for Republicans [31:06] that have been very much in the party line with the White House, now showing a little bit of—I [31:10] won't call it an independent streak, but an ability to break ranks. And I wonder what you make of it. [31:15] Well, I think that this is because we're very close to an election. And so you can see that some of the—depending [31:20] on where these senators are from in regards to states. So you saw Ohio— [31:25] John Husted. [31:25] Yes, he voted last night with the Democrats. And then also Sullivan. He's in a tough race. So I think [31:32] it's more to do with the election coming up than it is actually Trump. But listen, Trump keeps throwing [31:37] these things in there every week, every couple days, that are just not helpful to some of these Republicans. [31:42] And whether it's the Pulte nominate or, you know, acting director. And I mean, we can go on and on. [31:48] But in the ballroom and the fund. [31:51] Yeah. I mean, we could go on and on. [31:53] Yeah, exactly. So I think it's just—I don't know if it's—we'll see. I think the big break happens [31:58] after the election. [32:00] After the election, and at that point, does it help them? I mean, Republicans' fortunes are tied to Trump [32:04] here, whether they would like them to be or not. The economic numbers don't tell a great story. [32:09] Democrats can exploit that. [32:10] Yeah. I'm not terribly surprised to see this starting to happen as we get through primary [32:15] season. I kind of always—you know, these guys are survivalists above all else. And the biggest [32:20] threat to their careers until June or whenever their primary may be is Donald Trump coming in [32:25] and nuking them. And then you get through the primary, and you don't want to be bear-hugging a [32:29] president that's sitting at 35 percent approval. [32:31] Yeah. And I have been openly questioning at what point do they realize their political fortunes have [32:36] to be handled by themselves, that the president is not going to be scooping in to help them. [32:40] But I think you're right. Those who are playing with a primary calendar that skews later just have to [32:44] make different calculations as they're trying to answer that question. We will leave it there, [32:49] though I could keep going. [32:50] Jesse Larrick and Ashley Davis, thank you both for joining us to end the week. [32:55] Mainers are in a difficult spot right now with this. And I think it's interesting to hear from those two [33:00] voters, because it used to be not too long ago that Democrats, if somebody was accused of behavior like [33:08] this not too long ago at all, they'd be off the ballot or they'd be out of Congress. I mean, Democrats have [33:16] ousted people from their own party for much, much less. How have things or why have things changed, Alex? [33:22] Donald Trump. I mean, the Access Hollywood tape changed everything and established a new low in [33:29] terms of toxic masculinity. And I would say that I'm not trying to draw a false equivalence between [33:33] what's embraced on the right in terms of toxic masculinity and what's embraced on the left. [33:37] But I do think it reestablished a set of norms and also established a threshold by which the American [33:43] public would judge a president, right, the highest office in the land. And I think because of that, [33:49] there are calculations inside Maine and inside the Democratic Party about, you know, whether Plattner [33:55] can actually really weather this and still win. And, you know, I don't know. The only people that [34:00] know are the people that were being talked to on the street. This is going to be decided in Maine. [34:04] And it is, I will say, Katie, as much as it is about Graham Plattner, it is very much about Susan [34:09] Collins. Her mismanagement of Maine, her betrayal of sort of the independent spirit of Maine is what's [34:16] fueling a desire for change, really strong change, powerful sort of warrior types and all the good [34:26] and bad that come along with that, I suppose. That's why Graham Plattner has been met with so [34:32] much support inside the state. People are really tired of the status quo. Susan Collins took her 10,000th [34:38] vote yesterday. That was seen as a, you know, I mean, I think we should salute people who, you know, [34:44] devote their lives to public service. But it's also a testament to how long she's been there [34:47] and how bereft Mainers feel about her leadership. And that's why Graham Plattner is in this race. [34:54] They're going to be the ones that decide. So one of the differences, and I know Plattner denied the [34:59] physicality, but one of the differences we've seen between, and I don't want to make anything [35:04] equivalent here, but I'm just going to generalize. When we're talking about Donald Trump or even talking [35:08] about Paxton, and I know the allegations against Paxton, again, are different, there's not a search [35:14] for redemption. There's not an admission of, yes, I'm guilty of bad behavior in the past or being a bad [35:22] boyfriend or doing things that I regret, and I'm sorry for it, and I've learned my lesson. What we're [35:28] seeing with Graham Plattner is an attempt to ask forgiveness and an attempt to allow for redemption, [35:35] in his argument, among the American public, acknowledging that there are dark things that [35:42] happened to him, he was in a dark place, and saying that he's come out of that. I wonder what you think [35:47] of this plea for allowing for redemption, which we haven't seen on the Democratic side very much of [35:53] recently. And I know, Alex, you said it's in reaction to Donald Trump, but there was a time in reaction to [35:58] Donald Trump where Democrats got very pure and very intolerant of bad behavior. You can just look at Al [36:05] Franken in the Senate. There's now been a backlash to that backlash, and here we are dealing with [36:11] Graham Plattner. Help me understand that evolution and whether there is now room for, or why there's [36:19] now potentially room for redemption, Mark. Well, I think it's problematic that Democrats, you know, [36:26] echo the notion that character counts for Republicans, but then when it comes to an issue like this, [36:31] maybe there's a different standard. I do think voters are very forgiving and willing to allow [36:39] people a second act if there's redemptive behavior. But there's problematic stuff. I mean, [36:43] in that same New York Times report, a girlfriend claims that, you know, that he did know all about [36:50] the Nazi tattoo, and he knew what it was, and that's different than what he said. I've been trying [36:54] to think of what a resolution would be, and this is crazy Mark McKinnon thinking, but I mean, [36:59] he's got to figure out a way out of this. He said there's no more stuff to come. Well, [37:03] maybe there's a way for him to say, listen, you put together a committee of a few of the senators [37:07] that I talked to and, you know, a few key people from Maine, do an exhaustive deep dive Rahm Emanuel, [37:13] you know, wet work kind of, you know, examination of my record and any, you know, any kind of flaws or [37:21] character problems in my past. And let's just get it all out. You know, a, you know, a true vetting [37:27] of me, and we have four weeks, those can, that committee can meet and say either I've told the [37:34] truth or I haven't. And then, and if I haven't, then I'll, I'll raise my hand and take myself out [37:40] and Janet Mills can get on the belt because you can do that until July 13th. Alex, what do you think [37:44] of that? I know. I love you, Mark. You're a lunatic. First of all, I don't agree that he, [37:51] that he said nothing else is coming out. I mean, I watched that. I mean, if you watch the interview [37:55] and you actually played some of the sound, Katie, I think he's trying to, you know, take out some [38:00] insurance against other things coming out and suggest that there, you know, there's going to [38:04] be more digging. He has a pass that is very compromised. He is not the same person now as [38:08] he was a few years ago, maybe even in 2023. I think we should expect more to come out. It's not a [38:14] coincidence that these New York times pieces and the sexting pieces are landing a week before the [38:18] primary. I think, you know, Plattner's best move is to say, is to keep saying I am flawed, [38:24] but actually you want someone who's lived through dark times. You want someone who understands pain [38:29] and darkness and redemption because that's the story of America. I mean, there's got to be some [38:33] way to build in a narrative that fits the narrative of what Mainers are feeling with the life story of [38:40] Graham Plattner. They got to be able to see themselves in him, which doesn't mean they all need to [38:43] have the same allegations. But I think, you know, the idea of forgiveness and empathy is something [38:50] that he needs to very much bank on as he moves forward in this primary process. I don't think [38:56] he has any intention of getting out. And by the way, I'm not sure Democrats in the state want him [39:00] to get out. You hear these people talking and they're not so sure he should leave. [39:04] Begin with Maine, where more than 500 Mainers joined a rally for Democratic U.S. Senate [39:10] candidate Graham Plattner last night in his first public event since new allegations rocked his [39:16] campaign. Now, as every single piece of that past and journey gets dug up, litigated and weaponized, [39:25] you have my back. And to all of you out there, Maine, I will always have your back. [39:38] The Plattner campaign also announced yesterday that it raised more than $200,000 in the 24 hours [39:47] since The New York Times ran a report about allegations against him by ex-girlfriends. [39:54] In that report, three women who dated Plattner alleged, quote, toxic and unsettling behavior. [40:00] One former partner, Lindsey Fiffield, said Plattner regularly grabbed her by the shoulders, [40:06] sometimes hard enough to leave marks. And on one occasion, [40:10] the woman yanked her out of a cab by her wrist after an argument when she wanted to stay in the [40:15] car. During one argument, she recalled that he twisted her arm behind her back, [40:20] shoved her into a bedroom and held the door closed from the other side so she couldn't get out, [40:26] telling her to remain there until she was calm. Eventually, Ms. Fiffield said she fell asleep [40:32] and left the next morning. The Times also reported that three other women who dated Plattner and now [40:39] support his campaign described positive experiences with him and said he never made them feel physically [40:46] unsafe. Thursday on MS Now's All In with Chris Hayes, Plattner denied any accusation that he had been [40:53] physically abusive with a partner. There are some allegations in this piece that I just want to be [41:00] kind of unequivocal about are simply not true. Anything alleging physicality, anything alleging [41:07] that I knew what my tattoo was, these are the statements of someone who's politically motivated. [41:14] In a statement to The New York Times, the Plattner campaign questioned Fiffield's motivations, [41:19] saying, let's be very clear. This is a lifelong GOP operative who's dedicated her career to [41:24] electing Republicans. Fiffield rejected that characterization, saying she has no connection [41:31] to Senator Susan Collins' campaign and insisted that politics have played no role in her decision [41:37] to speak publicly. She added, quote, I know it looks like a bitter ex-girlfriend Republican trying to [41:44] take down a Democrat. It has nothing to do with that. If he was running as a Republican, [41:48] I would be doing this exact same thing. This is a tough one for Democrats. The thing that I think [41:59] is really interesting is the difference between what's happening on the ground in Maine and what's [42:03] happening in the larger Democratic ecosystem. The larger Democratic ecosystem, the folks that we [42:09] talk to probably more than the folks in Maine, is they are concerned about what's the next shoe to [42:16] drop because shoes have been dropping since he jumped in. He told senators that there was nothing, [42:22] even though The New York Times story was coming. And there's a question of if Democrats want to be [42:28] the party that has the moral high ground when it comes to Donald Trump and other scandals, [42:34] can they have someone whose scandal plagued themselves? Mainers seem to say that's fine, [42:38] that at the end of the day, it costs more for Mainers to not have him on the ballot than to have him [42:45] on the ballot. And I think that is something that's really interesting playing out here. [42:47] I mean, it seems to me that when you have a convicted felon who's been credibly accused of [42:54] sexual, sexual, found liable, liable for sexual assault, sitting in the Oval Office, [43:02] it sort of gives permission to lots of people who otherwise, in other times, would never have [43:10] thought in a million years to run for office. And I think to your point about the dilemma that [43:15] Democrats find themselves in, yeah, they've got this flawed candidate. And we're going to find [43:21] out soon enough whether Mainers want this flawed candidate to represent them in the Senate. [43:28] Yeah, I think... [43:29] Hold forth, Jackie. Go on. [43:31] Look, I think that there's certainly a conversation about whether or not, if you're a Republican or a [43:36] Democrat, is there room for making amends in your life, a sort of a path to redemption? I think the [43:42] question for Mainers at the end of the day is, do they want to be a part of that path that Graham [43:48] Plattner is currently on? Do they believe that Graham Plattner respects women after reading that [43:54] detailed New York Times dive? And do they feel like he's an honest broker? Do they feel like he's [44:00] someone who is going to be transparent and be forthright with them after seeing sort of the track [44:07] record of his claims over the past few months and whether or not they have amounted to the truth? [44:13] And they have... People have over and over again, whether it is the New York Times when he did that [44:18] podcast with them, or the senators said, is there anything else? And he keeps saying no. And that [44:23] seems to be not true and kind of now unbelievable. And so the questions I think that journalists have [44:30] is we are always asking who are the kinds of people who are coming to Congress? Who are the kinds of [44:36] people that are getting more power here? It's a question of whether or not you can trust what [44:40] they're saying. And at this point, I think there's a larger question of trust. And I know Donald... [44:44] But like, I feel like you could have a conversation about him without having a conversation about [44:47] Donald Trump. Well, but the point I was about to make, I know we've got to move on, but this might [44:52] also explain why, you know, to the whole point about is another shoe to drop? No, there isn't, [44:57] but another one drops. That's probably why Governor Mills only suspended her campaign. She did not [45:03] drop out and keeps reminding folks, I'm still on the ballot. I'm still here. You can still vote [45:07] for him if you want. Let's bring in MSNAP congressional reporter Kevin Fry. He was actually [45:12] at the Platinum rally last night. He joins us now from Bar Harbor, Maine. Kevin, what went down last [45:17] night? Yeah, I mean, we're outside of the event space from last night, which was pretty much at [45:23] capacity for the evening. And one of the questions, as you were just kind of all highlighting, was, [45:28] you know, is the enthusiasm that we know has been building around Platinum, was it still there [45:32] after this very kind of dramatic week for his campaign? And some of these folks that were [45:36] attending, as they were walking in, we were talking to them, and they were kind of candid and saying, [45:40] you know, maybe not as much as a few weeks ago, but they still insist they're standing by their man. [45:45] To touch on that one part that you were hitting on, Jonathan, I think at the table, this idea of, [45:52] you know, Trump is in office over the last decade. How has that changed the permission [45:55] structures? And several voters, when I kind of brought up Trump, Ken Paxton, were very adamant, [46:02] well, what Graham Plattner is accused of pales in comparison to what those two individuals are [46:07] accused of having done. So here's just a sense of what we heard last night. [46:13] Well, I think candidly, the Democratic Party has come up short in a lot of ways in terms of, like, [46:18] whitewashing our candidates and being so morally elitist and kind of entitled at times. We have to be [46:23] willing to get dirty. His baggage is nowhere near their baggage. We're talking about people that [46:28] are felons and people that take bribes. I really kind of think that we all have [46:34] skeletons in our closet, and we've all made mistakes, especially when we're younger. [46:39] And that was really a refrain we heard time and time again, this kind of redemption arc. [46:46] We can, you know, have faith and forgiveness, given that he might have changed his ways or [46:51] improved his life. Now, the headliner last night, the man who organized this event was Congressman [46:56] Ro Khanna of California. And he's been very outright in saying that he is standing by Plattner, [47:02] even though he says that some of the reporting from The New York Times this week has been toxic. He said [47:06] last night to the crowd there's no reason to forgive him for his past actions, or we cannot [47:11] condone it. But basically saying the man stands for good things. We need to move forward. And so I [47:16] asked him, you know, looking at the prospect that he, you know, is being bandied about as a 2028 [47:21] candidate. If this Plattner experiment doesn't go right, if they lose the Senate race here in Maine, [47:29] is that a punch to his credibility as a member of the Democratic coalition? And here's what he said [47:34] on that front. [47:37] No one remembers endorsements. What they look at is your vision for the country, for your district. [47:42] I think what matters is, are you willing to stand up for your values? I'm here because Plattner's for [47:47] single-payer health care, because he's opposed to the war in Iran, because he's opposed to what [47:52] happened in Gaza. And people will see that I fought for my values. And I just wanted to specify that [48:00] Kana, during the remarks last night, said that no one should make excuses for Plattner's past. [48:05] One other thing, as you all were touching at, this idea of Janet Mills, something to keep an eye on [48:09] Tuesday night is, is there any sort of against Plattner? And what does that say about the path forward [48:17] here? MSNOW's Kevin Fry in Bar Harbor, Maine, for us. Thank you very much, sir. Get some lobster [48:23] for us, please. Joining us now, senior Washington editor from Sim4, Alana Short. Y'all like lobster. [48:29] And David Drucker, MSNOW contributor and senior writer for The Dispatch. Thank you both for joining [48:34] us at the table. Alana, I'm going to start with you. The conversation we've been having, [48:40] the thing that I've been focused on, is how different the voters sound than the Democrats that [48:45] you talk to who are operatives in D.C. or who are running around the Hill. How do you explain [48:50] that dissonance? Well, I think a lot of these reporters are, frankly, fed up with the Trump [48:55] administration. They see Plattner as a fighter. They kind of buy a lot of his brand, as I will [49:01] speak for the working class. I'm going to stand up to Susan Collins who's a rubber stamp. And they kind [49:05] of want to look past this more readily than some of the elected Dems. Yeah. What does that tell us [49:11] about where the Democratic voters are right now? You know, I am not sure, to be honest with you. [49:16] I think Graham Plattner, honestly, might be an outlier because he's young, because he's got charisma [49:21] on a level that some other candidates might not have. This might be kind of a lightning in a bottle [49:26] thing where, particularly, there's a lot of expats, some younger voters who might turn out relative [49:31] to kind of the older electorate that Collins has benefited from in the past. It might not be [49:36] replicatable, but it does potentially tell us something really important. Yeah. Well, David, [49:41] maybe the reason why Plattner has, at this point, saying power is because of something that Rukana [49:49] said at last night's rally. Let's watch this. The character that really matters right now is the [49:57] character to be willing to stand up to the powers that be. The Democratic Party, from Schumer [50:04] to Sanders, is united with a single goal. We will defeat Susan Collins in November. [50:13] So that, to me, right there is the single biggest argument for Plattner. Democrats have blinders on. [50:26] They are sort of, in a lot of ways, emulating what Republicans have done for generations, which is, [50:33] this is my candidate. We need that seat, and we need that person in the seat to advance our agenda. [50:40] Yeah, you stole my line. I'm going to go home now. [50:42] Okay. [50:42] And what I mean is, you know, what I was going to say is, you know, for the past 10 years, [50:46] a lot of Democrats have been perplexed. How can Republicans support Donald Trump, [50:52] given all of the ethical baggage, right? I mean, January 6th obviously became its own thing, [50:57] and was particularly egregious. But, you know, his history with women, his history in business, [51:02] the fact that he doesn't always tell the truth. And we can go on and on and on. [51:07] How can Republicans, we just talked about this a few weeks ago at this table, [51:09] how can Republicans support Ken Paxton, who I have said maybe the most scandal-plagued politician [51:14] I've ever covered? And the answer when you talk to Republicans is always, he fights. [51:20] The other side is so bad that, yeah, I don't really feel good about how ethically challenged, [51:26] you know, my candidate is, but, like, what am I going to do? [51:28] And then the other thing, and we heard that from the clip there in Maine that our colleague played, [51:33] everybody's got skeletons in their closet. I have a quote like that from a Paxton supporter [51:38] in Texas verbatim from January, why they were voting for Paxton over Cornyn. He fights, [51:43] and everybody's got skeletons. So I think what we've learned is that American voters, [51:48] regardless of party, are all the same. They are angry at the establishment. They're worried [51:54] about the future of the country. They're willing to look past the problems of their side because [51:59] the other side is so egregious. And I think this is right now a sort of defining character of our politics.