The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell - May 15 — Audio Only

[0:01] The last word with Allie Vilsche starts right now. Hey, Allie. [0:04] I don't know if you've intended it, but this, this, uh, your shows this week for the last few [0:09] days have been a remarkable lesson for anybody who's a homeowner who's planning to renovate [0:13] anything on what not to do. I mean, like just the basic lessons about, hey, talk to two contractors. [0:19] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody should have a bid contract. Like never just, I mean, [0:24] if you've used the same guy for a long time, that's fine. But the same guy might've been [0:27] doing your particular pool, but now you're doing the actual reflecting pool of the United States [0:32] of America may not be the same job for the same guy. Make it an actual reflecting pool. And if it's [0:37] $1.8 billion, have a process for it. And I don't know what kind of pool you have at your home, [0:41] but still. All of the above. Uh, thank you for some great shows. You have a great weekend. [0:46] Thank you, Allie. Thank you. You too. Donald Trump is back in the United States. And of course, [0:52] his China summit was a great success. But while Trump walked away with a flattering reception, [0:57] a nice dinner, and not much else, China walked away with something far more consequential, [1:03] an uncertainty that they sought about the United States' position on Taiwan. [1:09] Yesterday, the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, sat down for an interview with NBC News, [1:13] where he stated clearly that the U.S. policy on Taiwan had not changed. [1:20] U.S. policy on the issue of Taiwan is unchanged as of today and as of the meeting that we had here [1:25] today. It was raised. They always raise it on their side. We always make clear our position, [1:29] and we move on to the other topics. We know where they stand, and I think they know where we stand. [1:34] We know where they stand, and I think they know where we stand. End quote. [1:39] Today, Donald Trump got on Air Force One and introduced something very different. [1:43] The 1982 assurances that President Reagan said that the United States would not consult with China [1:54] on arms sales to Taiwan. It sounds to me like you have consulted with China. [1:59] I think 1982 is a long way. It was. [2:02] It was. That's a big, far distance. [2:04] You just messed with that? No, I didn't say anything about it. [2:07] We discussed the Taiwan, you know, the whole thing with the arms sales was in great detail, actually. [2:13] In great detail. That was Trump saying, I didn't say anything about Taiwan, only to say, [2:19] mere seconds later, we discussed Taiwan in great detail. Maybe Trump forgot. Maybe Trump misspoke. [2:29] Maybe Trump was lying. But China absolutely knows where it stands on Taiwan. There's no confusion in [2:36] Beijing. Taiwan, which China considers a breakaway province, is China's number one strategic priority, [2:43] and it has been for decades. That was arguably China's number one wishlist item coming out of [2:49] the summit, creating uncertainty in America's commitment to Taiwan. And Trump gave it to them [2:56] in exchange for nothing. Trump got rolled by an authoritarian targeting a democratic ally of the [3:03] United States again. It used to be that when the United States government spoke, everybody listened. [3:09] Allies, markets, adversaries. Now Trump has rendered not only the words of an American president [3:14] meaningless, but also the words of his secretary of state, his administration, and everyone. [3:20] Because Trump thinks power is performance, he tried to show that he was tough, not by standing up to [3:25] China or winning on Iran, but by attacking New York Times reporter David Sanger, who asked a question [3:32] about Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu's war of choice in Iran. [3:35] I had a total military victory, but the fake news, guys like you write incorrectly. I actually think [3:44] it's sort of treasonous what you write. You should be ashamed of this. [3:48] This is another war. I actually think it's treason. [3:51] Wow. Trump thinks he looks strong, lobbing a big, tough word like treason, and a reporter [3:59] whom he knows will not argue with him, but will continue to pursue his questioning in a professional [4:03] manner. Like professional wrestling, it's all fake. Total military victory in Iran? It's day 76, [4:13] and Iran is still using its brand new weapon, the Strait of Hormuz, against us. And Trump has no idea [4:19] what to do about that. What exactly did Trump bring home from his two-day summit with the Chinese [4:25] president? No commitment from China to help open the Strait of Hormuz. No breakthrough on Iran. He did [4:32] get an agreement for China to buy American planes. The New York Times reports, quote, [4:36] Boeing landed an order for 200 aircraft, a deal that Trump highlighted in a Fox News interview last [4:42] night, but shares in the plane maker fell sharply in pre-market trading on Friday because the number [4:47] was short of analysts' forecasts of at least 300 planes. The Atlantic reports, quote, a couple of trade [4:54] deals have apparently made Trump happy enough to step aside and let Xi pursue his global agenda. [5:00] Like the Chinese emperors of old, Xi has used the lure of Chinese wealth to reinforce China's power. [5:07] This is how a president who has long insisted on American strength and a tough line on China consigns [5:13] the country to a weaker future, end quote. We've seen this pattern before. Remember the Trump-Putin [5:21] summit in Alaska last summer? Trump literally rolled out the red carpet. Massive spectacle, [5:26] personal flattery. All the TV news cameras were there. And afterward, nothing changed. Trump was [5:34] not able to deliver half a year late on his promise to end Putin's war on Ukraine on day one, as he [5:39] promised during the election. Putin's war on Ukraine continues, by the way, as Russia attacks civilians, [5:45] including infants and children, and devastates infrastructure. Today, at least 24 people were [5:51] killed in Kyiv, including two children. According to Kyiv's mayor, dozens of others were wounded, [5:56] including a one-month-old baby. But just last week, Donald Trump claimed progress, writing that talks [6:02] between Ukraine and Russia were, quote, continuing on ending this major conflict. We are getting closer [6:08] and closer every day, end quote. Closer and closer every day to the war that he was going to end on day [6:15] one, to the war that wouldn't have happened had he been president, apparently. Trump, [6:19] the reality TV guy, wants to win attention in the moment. It's always about the moment, [6:23] which is why he declares victory every day of this war, now in its 76th day. China isn't bothering [6:31] to win the moment. China's playing to win the future. The Wall Street Journal reports, quote, [6:36] for Trump, it's all about opening China's market to American business and reciprocal trade, [6:40] reviving a U.S. policy that he scrapped in his first presidency. Chinese leader Xi Jinping, [6:45] meanwhile, wants strategic stability, a predictable relationship in which Washington doesn't impede [6:50] Beijing's economic and geopolitical rise. Trump is trying to manage the chaos he created. [6:58] China is trying to shape the 21st century and is doing it with relentless discipline. [7:04] The Wall Street Journal continues, quote, the U.S. could ban every Chinese-made product, [7:09] but those products would keep gaining market share abroad, threatening American leadership. [7:13] This calls for a joint response by all market-based economies, democracies, to Chinese industrial [7:20] policy. But U.S. allies' willingness to coordinate with the United States on China, [7:24] which was never high to start with, has eroded further under Trump. China is not just competing [7:29] in markets. It is shaping markets. Meanwhile, the United States is alienating the allies that it would [7:35] need to compete effectively with China. America's greatest superpower has never simply been its military [7:42] force, yet the United States spends more on defense than the next 44 countries combined. America's true [7:50] superpower was its alliances. NATO, NORAD, Five Eyes, the Pacific alliances, economic coalitions, [7:56] the fact that allies believed America meant what it said and would live up to its commitments. [8:00] Trump has spent years weakening those structures by attacking allies, creating uncertainty, hollowing out [8:06] trust. And as a result, the world's most powerful country increasingly behaves like the world's smallest [8:12] superpower. And once again, an authoritarian leader walked away with exactly what he wanted, [8:18] while Trump came home declaring victory. Time Magazine describes Trump as cowed in China. [8:25] The most enduring image from the entire visit is the two leaders standing outside the Ming Dynasty [8:30] Temple of Heaven, with Trump remaining curiously tight-lipped as reporters inquired whether they had [8:35] discussed Taiwan. China is beautiful, Trump offered instead. But the optics of the U.S. President, [8:42] for whom belligerence has long been a badge of honor, appearing awkward and cowed, is a stark illustration [8:48] of the shifting balance of global power. So I've got a new acronym tonight, TGRET. Trump gets rolled [8:58] every time. This week was China's turn to roll him. Leading off our discussion tonight is Christian [9:04] Freeland, who previously served as the Deputy Prime Minister of Canada and the Minister of Finance. [9:09] of Canada. She is also a long-time journalist. Christian, welcome back to the show. Thank you [9:13] for being with us tonight. Great to be with you, Ali. You've been at these tables. You've been at [9:18] these summits. You've been at these meetings. You understand the importance of it. I think [9:22] this was probably supposed to be the most important summit of Donald Trump's entire tenure. Give us your [9:28] take on what happened. I think an acronym you could use to summarize not just this meeting, [9:36] but everything leading up to it, is make China great again. When you look at the impact of the [9:43] Trump presidency, the real winner has been China. And the loser has been America's allies and America [9:51] itself. And what's really extraordinary about it, Ali, is President Trump was elected beginning in 2016, [9:59] in large part because he was really one of the first U.S. leaders who recognized the way that China's [10:07] entry to the WTO was contributing to the hollowing out of the U.S. middle class. One of his promises to [10:15] American Rust Belt workers was he was going to fix it. But instead, what we see he's doing is bullying [10:23] reporters, beating up on America's closest friends and allies, and frankly, seeming cowed by China. [10:33] Tell me about the Taiwan thing. How big a deal is it? There's two. One is a practical issue, and that is [10:38] that the U.S. has maintained a very heavy naval presence and military presence in Asia, you know, [10:45] for a lot of reasons, but also in part because we have an agreement that if China were to invade [10:49] Taiwan, the United States has some nuanced commitment to defend Taiwan. But the military [10:55] is not there right now. They're in the Middle East. That is 100% the case, and China knows it. [11:02] China knows that with every day of the Trump presidency, the U.S. is getting weaker. The U.S. [11:09] is distracted by a war of choice, which is tying up the U.S. military, which is raising prices at home [11:18] and weakening the president because of that, which has divided the United States from its allies. [11:24] And, you know, what to me is really concerning about the president's reticence on Taiwan is, [11:32] I think, that kind of ambiguity, that perception that surely Beijing has right now, that they can [11:40] manipulate President Trump, I think it makes the world a more dangerous place. Because if you're in [11:46] Beijing right now, you're thinking, this is a guy we can manipulate. And you may be thinking, [11:53] that means it would be smart for us to do something before 2028. And that would be terrible [11:59] for Taiwan and terrible for the world. So you, that's interesting, before 2028. So that brings [12:04] me to my next question. Donald Trump has broken a lot of major organizations or weakened organizations. [12:12] Some of them are American organizations. Some of them are things like NATO. When there's a different [12:19] president who doesn't do that, who doesn't want to break alliances and break international [12:23] organizations, can America get right back to the table? Can they pull up their chair and say, [12:28] we're back and things are going back to the way they used to be? Or have our allies, including Canada, [12:34] decided that the future has to look different? You know, Ali, I really hope that America can mend [12:42] its relationship with its allies. And I hope that because I think all of us, the world's democracies, [12:49] will be a lot stronger if the US is on team democracy. And I also think, you know, Canadians, [12:57] Europeans, we know America is bigger than one man, even if that one man is the president. And by the way, [13:05] we like America, we admire American Americans. So I like to think there is a way back. But it's [13:12] getting harder and harder every day. Help me understand how this goes. Because [13:18] obviously, a country like Canada and other European countries, they don't have to trade [13:21] with China. We all trade with China. We trade a lot with China. But as a result of the difficulties [13:26] with America since the second Trump presidency, Canada, for instance, has increased its level of [13:31] trade and its intent to do more with China. And that makes some Canadians uncomfortable, [13:36] makes Americans uncomfortable. But it is, it's a fact of life that if you want to confront China, [13:42] you've got to have a sort of an allied approach to this thing. If you don't, countries are going to [13:47] start going it alone. Ali, you are 100% correct. And, you know, the irony of the situation is [13:56] America actually needs its allies today more than it has ever done. These alliances were established [14:03] after the Second World War, when America was at its peak power. And that is when America was [14:09] supporting its allies, was seeking to build this web of friendship. Today, America's relative economic [14:15] weight in the world is declining. And the behavior is absolutely perverse. Now is a time when America [14:23] needs its friends. And what America is actually doing, rather than rallying a coalition of friends [14:31] to support America, including in, I would say, ensuring that China plays by the rules the rest of us [14:41] play by, whether those are rules of territorial integrity, or rules of trade. America could be [14:48] rallying the free world to do that. But instead, America is pushing its friends into the arms of China. [14:55] It's really hard for me to understand why that is in the interests of the United States and of [15:02] Americans. [15:04] Christian, we're going to take a quick break. We're going to continue the conversation on the [15:06] other side. You are one of a number of people who are persona non grata in Russia as a result of your [15:14] support for Ukraine and your own background, your Ukrainian heritage. I want to talk to you about [15:20] the uptick in violence that Russia has imposed on Ukraine this week, and talk about the future of [15:25] American democracy. We're going to take a quick break. We'll talk on the other side. [15:37] Here's a statement that would have been unthinkable at any time from the end of World War II [15:42] until Donald Trump. The German Chancellor Friedrich Merz said today, quote, [15:46] I am a great admirer of America. My admiration isn't growing at the moment, [15:51] so I wouldn't recommend to my children today that they go to the U.S., get an education there, [15:56] and work there, simply because of a social climate that has suddenly developed there, end quote. [16:01] Just last month, Chancellor Merz says Donald Trump was being humiliated by Iran [16:06] in negotiations about an end to Trump's war. Germany, of course, unconditionally surrendered [16:11] to the United States, ending World War II, and it was America that showed an act of mercy and [16:16] remarkable economic prowess in the Marshall Plan to help the country that waged war on democracy to [16:21] rebuild. Germany was where an American president stood at the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin in 1963, [16:28] when the German people were being split in half by communism and said, I am a Berliner. And in 1987, [16:34] when an American president shouted, tear down this wall, and not that long afterward, they did. [16:40] And where in 2008, 200,000 people flooded the streets to see the future president, Barack Obama, [16:47] speak about freedom and partnership. And now we have come to this. The German Chancellor warns his kids [16:54] away from looking to America. Chrystia Freeland, the former Deputy Prime Minister of Canada, [17:00] is back with us. Chrystia, between two fellow Canadians, this is so weird, right? Because we both [17:05] grew up with America as our biggest neighbor and most important partner, a country to which we look to, [17:13] we vacationed in. You and I both worked parts of our careers in the United States. It's so strange [17:21] to have a break with one of your closest allies. It's strange, and it's dangerous. It's dangerous [17:31] for America's allies, and it's dangerous for America itself. You know, Ali, you are absolutely [17:36] right to highlight those comments from Friedrich Merz. They're even more shocking than you made them [17:42] sound. Because Merz is probably the most pro-American leader in Europe. He used to work for Blackrock. [17:53] He is a conservative. He was the head of an organization called Atlantikobrucke, [17:59] which means Atlantic Bridge, the bridge between Germany and North America. In 2018, [18:06] he actually, as head of that organization, gave me an award for furthering transatlantic relations, [18:13] because Canada did a trade deal with Europe. So he has devoted so much of his life to building [18:20] that transatlantic relationship. It's one of the main things he stands for. And to have him say, [18:27] I don't think America is a place for my kids anymore, that is huge. [18:33] Let's talk a little about, a lot of people don't know this, but Canada is home to the [18:41] greatest, the diaspora, largest diaspora of Ukrainians, for a lot of very interesting reasons [18:45] that go back to the 1930s. You're one of them. You are a member of that diaspora. You have fought for [18:52] freedom and democracy in Ukraine for a long time. And for that, you have been, you are not, [18:58] you're not welcome in Russia. Russia has upped its attacks on Ukraine this week. There have been some [19:05] brutal, brutal attacks over the next few days, last few days, thousands of drones and missiles. [19:11] Where are we in this war? Well, Ali, this has been a pretty grim time, [19:17] and you've talked about some worrying things so far in your show. So I'm going to offer a little bit of [19:22] good news. Against all odds, and contradicting the predictions of experts from the very beginning, [19:29] you know, experts said that Kyiv was going to fall in three weeks. Ukraine is actually holding Russia [19:36] to a stalemate. It may even be winning. And it is doing that because the Ukrainians have invented [19:44] an entirely new way of war. They have invented drone warfare. You see the Gulf states actually turning to [19:52] Ukraine to help defend themselves from Iran. And Ukrainians are building their own drones. [19:57] They are building their own ballistic missiles. They are now capable of striking 1500 kilometers [20:04] into Russia. And they call these missile attacks our own sanction program. Because with those Ukrainian [20:13] deep strike attacks, Ukraine has either damaged or destroyed up to 40% of Russia's oil refining capacity. [20:21] That is an example to me of democracy working. And I think that we should all be really inspired [20:28] by what Ukraine is doing. And we should recognize that Ukraine, it's not just a charity case. Ukraine [20:36] is a powerful ally that can help defend Europe, and indeed is today defending Europe. [20:42] Chris, can I ask you, day 76, I think it is, of this war in Iran. Wars tend to get unpopular over time. [20:52] Rarely do they start this unpopular. It is quite likely this is an illegal war, because [20:57] in the first 60 days, the president needed to ask Congress. Congress does not apparently care that [21:01] the president didn't ask, so it's not been granted. The president doesn't have war powers. Sometimes he [21:05] calls it a war, sometimes he doesn't call it a war. But something is happening in Iran that feels like [21:10] a war, and the Strait of Hormuz is closed. What's your sense of how this ends? [21:14] Well, I'll tell you what is happening right now, which is this is pummeling regular Americans. [21:24] Gas prices are high, and they're going to get higher. This is hitting food prices. Something [21:30] that not a lot of people talk about is that fertilizer is really being hit, and that is [21:35] going to increase the price of food around the world. It is hitting aluminum. If you are a person [21:41] who likes a beer or likes a can of pop, that is going to be getting more expensive because of this war. [21:48] Is there a way out of this? I mean, it doesn't seem obvious. Donald Trump keeps claiming victory, which [21:57] creates a problem because it doesn't actually get us to victory, or even a ceasefire or a peace deal. [22:03] Well, you know what is really perverse, Ali, is this war may actually end up leaving Iran and the [22:11] Ayatollahs, who are terrible, who massacred their own people in the weeks before this war. They may end [22:19] up in a stronger position than before the war began. It is entirely possible that Iran and its [22:26] nuclear program will be stronger after this war than they were before. And as you have pointed out, [22:33] Iran has discovered a whole new weapon, and that is control over the Straits of Hormuz. [22:39] Which still remain, which remain closed. I wonder whether when Donald Trump declares victory there, [22:44] it'll be because these straits, which were not closed 76 days ago, will be reopened. Christy, [22:49] good to see you as always. Thank you for being with us. Christopher Phelan is the former Deputy [22:52] Prime Minister of Canada. All right, coming up, no other president has blurred the line between [22:57] national and personal interest more than Donald Trump. I'll talk about that next with the former [23:01] Labor Secretary Robert Reich after the break. There has never been in the history of America [23:13] a president who used the office to enrich himself, his family, and his pals as much as, or as blatantly, [23:19] as Donald Trump has. Whether it's holding the G20 at his own golf club in Florida, or hawking [23:25] Elon Musk's cars on the White House lawn, or selling Trump-branded Bibles made in China, [23:30] which were exempt from Trump tariffs, it's never been clear where the line is between the national [23:35] interest of the United States and the interest of the person currently occupying the Oval Office. [23:40] Here's another one. Donald Trump went to China for a summit with the president of China, [23:44] America's foremost geopolitical rival. And traveling alongside the president was his son, [23:49] Eric Trump, the executive who leads the Trump family business. The New York Times reports the [23:54] company, known as the Trump Organization, has flirted with Chinese business deals over the years, [23:59] raising the question of whether his presence could blur the lines between government businesses, [24:03] government business, and private enterprise. Now, Eric Trump posted today, [24:08] I have zero business interests in China. No properties, no investments, nothing. I joined [24:13] this trip for one reason, as a loving son who adores my father and wouldn't miss being by his side for [24:20] this incredible moment. During the bilateral talks, Laura Trump and I went to the Great Wall of China. [24:26] And there is, by the way, no evidence that Eric Trump conducted any negotiations during this trip. [24:31] But the Times also reports that according to public financial disclosures filed last year, [24:36] Donald Trump still owns dozens of trademarks in China. And then there's this reporting from the [24:41] Financial Times this week. Eric Trump is joining his father on a state visit to Beijing while a [24:46] company linked to him and the U.S. president's family explores a deal with a Chinese chipmaker [24:52] that American lawmakers have warned is connected to the ruling Communist Party. Las Vegas-based fintech [24:59] Alt 5 Sigma, which has financial links to the Trump family's World Liberty financial crypto business, [25:05] last month signed a memorandum of understanding with nano labs to build data centers in the United [25:12] States. Now, again, it's important to note, the Financial Times does not report that Eric Trump [25:17] himself negotiated that agreement. But Eric Trump simultaneously represents the president's family [25:23] and the president's business empire. So where's the line? And how can we forget other foreign [25:28] governments, especially those less democratic ones? How can we expect them to understand and respect that line? [25:34] This kind of stuff used to outrage small-c conservatives, Republicans. [25:40] Not anymore. The Republican Congressman Jim Jordan was asked directly about this on CNN yesterday. [25:46] Do you think it's fair for Eric Trump to be on this trip with his father, the president? [25:53] Yeah, I think it's certainly fine for people to travel with the president on a state visit like this. [25:58] I think that happens all the time. So I don't have a problem at all [26:01] with the first family traveling with the president of the United States. [26:05] Even despite his business ventures when it comes to World Liberty financial and the Trump [26:10] Organization, you don't have any issues with that? I don't have any issues at all. [26:13] Maybe that's the biggest shift of all, because whatever ethics constraints once existed around [26:19] the Trump Organization during the first administration, many of them have eroded in the second. [26:24] The Trump Organization is once again expanding its foreign business interests. [26:28] Trump's son-in-law, by the way, Jared Kushner, and Trump ally Steve Whitcoff—these two guys seem [26:33] to be going around the world trying to make peace or developments or whatever—they've both developed [26:37] lucrative international relationships while also operating in diplomatic or quasi-diplomatic roles [26:44] tied to U.S. foreign policy. Jared Kushner has his own private equity firm, [26:48] funded mostly by Middle Eastern money, while the Whitcoff family [26:52] is boosting its wealth with investments connected to the Trumps and to Elon Musk. [26:56] And while peace in the Ukraine and the Middle East have not been achieved, [27:00] profits connected to Trump world appear to be booming. [27:03] And all of this is happening while Americans are paying more for gas and groceries [27:06] as Donald Trump's war of choice with Iran drags on. [27:10] Joining us now is Robert Rice, who served as the Secretary of Labor under President Clinton. [27:13] He's a professor of public policy at UC Berkeley. He's a co-founder of Inequality Media. [27:18] And, you know, Robert, you're an expert on a lot of things. [27:21] I don't think you're an expert on corruption and grift and government doing this, [27:27] because we haven't seen this happen this way in the past. It's kind of remarkable. [27:31] I probably only listed a quarter of the things I could have listed that seem [27:35] untoward about the dealings between the president and the president's friends and other countries. [27:40] I think one of the most important themes here is that in previous administrations, [27:45] and I've been involved in actually work for three presidents, one Republican. [27:51] In previous administrations, you have had a specialized group of people in the State Department, [27:58] diplomats, people who have developed an understanding of a particular country like Iran [28:04] or like China. And they really do have a very central role to play in American foreign policy. [28:11] And what a president does when he visits one of these places or when he makes decisions about going [28:16] to war, such as Iran. This administration does not have that. This administration instead has the [28:23] president's son-in-law, Steve Witkoff, who's another real estate developer, a president's friend, [28:31] a bunch of CEOs who were part of the delegation that went to China with the president. But where are the diplomats? [28:39] Where are the people who are supposed to know what is going on? There is really no distinction at all in this [28:46] administration between the personal business interests of various people who are advising the president, including his family, [28:55] and America's supposed national interest. But the fact is that there are conflicts of interest. [29:01] These are what this is what conflicts of interest means. It means that there are ulterior motives. [29:07] And that is potentially dangerous for the United States. Or at least it could be right. We don't we don't know, [29:12] but we don't know that they're not. At least when you have rules and you follow those conflict of interest rules, [29:16] what you do in many cases is eliminate the potential for things to be seen as conflicts of interest. But [29:22] we're spending the week talking about this pool, the reflecting pool that Donald Trump had redone [29:27] and bragged about the fact that it was his guy who he got in a no-bid contract. At what point and how? [29:34] Yeah. I mean, at what point and how? No-bid contract. And that's the important point. [29:38] You see, the potential conflicts of interest create distrust. They generate distrust. If we don't [29:45] believe that we're absolutely dealing with a government that is working for us, if we know that [29:53] there are ulterior motives, there are grifting side deals going on, then how can we possibly trust the [30:01] outcomes of what our government does? That's the fundamental problem. [30:05] This is interesting because you look at this, you follow the University of Michigan consumer [30:09] sentiment survey, which is at its lowest point since 1952. Now, I would argue, and you know these [30:14] things better than I do, that the economy is not worse now than it was at various other points [30:18] between now and 1952. But in all of those other times, including the financial crisis of 2008, [30:23] you had a feeling that the government was working with you to try and solve this problem. Here, we have [30:28] this feeling, this distrust that the government is working with us to solve problems. And in fact, [30:33] in the case of the tariffs and in the case of the war in Iran, they're actively working against us. [30:38] Our prices are higher. Our cost of living is higher because of tariffs and the war in Iran. [30:44] And I think that the consumer sentiment does reflect increasing distrust and increasing concern [30:51] that in fact, this government is not trying to make gas more affordable or anything else more [30:57] affordable. It's through its tariffs. It's using the tariffs to get a better deal for what, for whom. [31:06] It's using the war in Iran to do exactly what. We don't even hear what the objective is. We know that [31:14] there are a lot of deals going on. We know that there's a lot of money at stake. But if the public [31:20] doesn't trust that that money is going to be spent well, that it's going to be spent in the public [31:25] interest, then we've got, you know, not only consumer sentiment going down, but we have [31:30] overall trust in government and trust in this particular government at rock bottom. [31:35] We also have a situation where CEOs travel with presidents on these deals and they're often [31:41] trade oriented deals. And, you know, that in itself is not the problem. But you mentioned the lack of [31:46] the diplomats and the lack of the experts. And you could say the same thing about Iran, [31:51] right? I remember calling Ernie Moniz at the beginning of this war with Iran and saying, [31:55] hey, can you come on my show and talk about the nuclear stuff? And he said, I could, but why? [31:59] That's not actually what they're discussing. This isn't a deal that has experts around the table [32:03] who are discussing how to contain Iran's nuclear ambitions. It's entirely something else. [32:09] Well, you use the word deal. And I think that's really very interesting and very central. [32:15] The question is, and that was the name of Trump's famous book, The Art of the Deal, [32:19] who is at the table? Who is the deal benefiting? Is the deal for just the private individuals and [32:25] the private businesses sitting around the table? Or is the deal about America? Is it about this [32:31] country? Is it about the interest of people in this country? And I think that the problem is that [32:36] these deals are being made by dealmakers that don't have any particular connection, [32:42] officially or even unofficially, to the public interest in the United States. [32:47] Robert, good to see you as always. Thank you for being with us tonight. Robert Reich is the former [32:51] Secretary of Labor under President Bill Clinton. All right, coming up, what did Donald Trump take [32:56] away from his summit in China? That China has a ballroom, literally. We'll discuss that and more [33:01] with Congressman Maxwell Frost next. Donald Trump came out of his summit with the President of China with [33:13] a demand for the American people. Quote, China has a ballroom and so should the USA. And he posted a [33:19] picture of himself with President Xi. The post perfectly captures how unserious Donald Trump is. [33:27] America meets with its biggest geopolitical and military rival and one which is an ally of Iran, [33:34] where the Strait of Hormuz is still closed, and Trump focuses on the ballroom. It's not just Trump [33:40] himself. As former Obama diplomat Brett Bruin pointed out on social media, quote, [33:46] not a single China expert, POTUS would normally have at least one NSC state official to provide briefings, [33:52] underlines how utterly unprepared he is for meetings with Xi. I don't think China was unprepared or [34:00] understaffed with experts. But that didn't sit well with one of the members of Donald Trump's China [34:05] delegation. The White House Communications Director, Stephen Chung, who was front and center, [34:11] literally in the front line on the steps of the arrival ceremony. He delivered a characteristically [34:16] foul-mouthed, name-calling reply, but no facts to refute the fact that there were no China experts on [34:23] the Trump team in China. Stephen Chung is part of the Trump brain trust that has been making a joke of [34:28] the war in Iran. I think the kids call that cringe. But by the way, they don't post so much about Iran [34:50] now that it's day 76 and this war is still going on. This extremely online meme-ified communication [34:56] from the Trump administration is clearly designed to appeal to young men whom Trump won with 56% of [35:03] that vote in 2024. But a year and a half later, those young men aren't liking the memes so much [35:08] anymore. According to the spring 2026 Yale Youth Poll, Donald Trump's approval among young male voters [35:13] under 35 is plummeting. And it seems unlikely to improve with the top issue for 81% of all young [35:23] voters being the cost of living. And then look at what's next, corruption. And look at what's next, [35:27] democracy. And look at what's next, healthcare, which this administration has cut. And look at what's [35:31] next, housing. Joining us now is the Democratic Congressman Maxwell Frost of Florida. He's a [35:36] member of the House Oversight Committee. And he is certainly our favorite young man [35:41] to come on this show on a regular basis. Congressman, nice to see you. [35:45] Young people are not an anomaly. They actually have real concerns about this world. And they were [35:52] made to believe by this administration and its partisans that this, they will somehow solve [35:56] their problem and they're solving none of their problems. A hundred percent. And you know, a lot [36:01] of times there's a lot of politicians and Donald Trump is, is the top one that thinks all you need [36:06] are, are AI memes, uh, funny videos, go on podcasts and stuff like that. And you'll be able to reach out [36:13] to young people. And look, I, I don't profess to speak for all young people in this country, [36:17] but I can tell you that young people don't want memes. They want housing. They want healthcare. [36:22] They want a good paying job where they can pay for their, uh, for everything that they have in life. [36:27] And the fact of the matter is for young people, it is uniquely difficult right now to be a young [36:32] person becoming an adult, trying to accumulate wealth to live and pay for your bills. It is [36:38] uniquely difficult right now. And we don't want memes. They want money right in their pockets. They [36:44] want healthcare, they want affordable housing, and none of that exists. And Donald Trump takes this trip [36:49] where it's an opportunity for him to, uh, speak with China, to use diplomacy, to try to figure out [36:55] how can we reopen a straight-up form moves? How can we get past this entire debacle that he put us in, [37:00] that's driving up gas prices. But instead of that, he uses it to talk about his ballroom that he's [37:05] asking us for $1 billion to build. Which nobody asked for. Nobody asked for this ballroom. It needed, [37:11] nobody needed it, uh, after the very unfortunate shooting at the White House Correspondents Center, [37:16] he claimed it was all about safety. But let's go back to last November, the elections of last [37:20] November and various elections since then. But New York City, right here, Mamdani, winning with [37:25] an overwhelming plurality of young people who couldn't care less whether he was a democratic [37:29] socialist or, or what, any of that stuff. He said that he would make your rent go down. You know, [37:36] which New Yorkers pay like 60% of their, young people here pay 60% of their income in rent. [37:40] That's what registers. They want a better life. Yeah, I think a lot of people learn the wrong lessons [37:46] from a lot of these elections. And I think a lot of people saw Zoran's win and said, [37:50] okay, well, all we got to do is make good videos. And if we make good videos, we'll be able to win [37:55] the young people. And of course, look, it's important for us to do videos, to go speak in [38:01] different places, to have the good quality. The medium is important, but don't forget that the [38:06] message, the policy, what you're saying you're going to do is just as important. If not, I would say [38:12] much more important. Young people voted for Zoran, not just because he made videos saying [38:17] what he was going to do, but because what he was saying he was going to do resonated with them. [38:22] And they said, wow, if someone actually did that, it would change my life and make my life a lot [38:27] easier. And that's what we really have to, you know, we have to focus on that. It's of course, [38:33] how we deliver the message, but what we're saying we're going to do and then doing it, that's the key. [38:37] Because what I'm telling people is in this moment, especially when you have an opposition as [38:41] stupid as Donald Trump, that's going to do all this horrible stuff. [38:44] It can, I don't want to say easy, nothing's easy, but gaining political power, it goes back [38:49] and forth in American politics, but keeping it, that's the challenge. And that's where we really [38:55] have to deliver. And so Donald Trump, he's all over the place. [39:00] All over the place. Let's pull up that list again of what the poll showed about what young people [39:04] care about. And the cost of living and affordability, 81%. These numbers are crazy, [39:10] Congressman. 81% of people, again, wouldn't believe that today is Friday. We couldn't get [39:15] that agreement. The number two issue, it edges out democracy by a little bit. 75% of young people [39:21] say corruption is their second biggest issue. Corruption. I don't even know that that like polls [39:26] in normal polls, like in normal administrations, because you don't generally think that your federal [39:32] government is a central source of corruption. And that seems to be the case now. [39:37] Exactly. And the important thing about these numbers is they don't live within a vacuum, [39:41] right? I would venture to say that part of the reason why so many young people are saying we got [39:45] to deal with corruption is because they see the direct connection between the fact that they can't [39:49] afford a damn thing in their life, that they have no money, that they don't own a damn thing. And [39:54] they see that connection to the fact that billionaires and corporations can spend unlimited amounts of [40:00] money in our politics. Then they see their members of Congress buying and trading stock. And they see [40:06] a corrupt Supreme Court. They see the president use a state trip to essentially try to get a ballroom [40:12] with taxpayer money. They see all this and they say, no wonder my life sucks. I mean, no wonder [40:18] I have done everything they told me to do. I went to school. I got student debt. I did this and that. [40:23] I can't find a full-time job that pays my bills because everything's too expensive. And so I think [40:27] that's why you see corruption so high up there and doesn't live in a vacuum. They see how it's all [40:32] connected. And Donald Trump is really putting it on full display right now. But the irony is that [40:38] Donald Trump ran on affordability and immigration and no foreign wars. He's underwater on all of the [40:45] foreign war thing was just a lie, turns out. And the other two he's underwater on. Even on immigration, [40:51] he's underwater on the, these were his signature things. So I guess what, here's my question to you. [40:56] Democrats have to campaign on, on affordability this time. The last guy people voted for on [41:01] affordability did it dirty. How did Democrats make sure that they can say, we'll actually deal [41:10] with your affordability problems? Well, obviously like the core difference is that he, he lied, [41:16] right? And obviously he, he's a billionaire looking out for himself, his family and his friends. [41:20] But the thing, and I think the thing that you're getting at that's so important is the lesson here [41:24] is you can say the right things in the election. You can win the election. And less than two years [41:29] later, the voters can completely turn on you if you have not delivered. So that's why what's important [41:34] right now, and we're working, we're working on this in the House Democratic caucus is figuring out [41:38] what's our message. What are we running on? But it's the thing that we run on, that we went on, [41:42] and then the most important one that we do. And, and, and, and the, doing those three things are the [41:48] most important. It's the most important part of keeping the political power that we need. And so [41:55] my hope as we're in this process, as we come up with what is that affirmative agenda, what are the [42:00] three to five things we're telling the American people, vote us in the power, we're going to do it. [42:03] We get in there and then we do it. And then we put the pressure on Donald Trump for the next year and [42:08] a half saying, Hey, we passed this proposal to make sure you have health care. We passed this [42:12] proposal to deal with the housing crisis. It is sitting on his desk. And we take that energy to [42:17] 2028, take the presidency and go from there. So I'm optimistic, but you're a hundred percent right. [42:22] It's not enough to just run on it. You got to do it because right now people don't believe either [42:26] party. And I think we have an opportunity as Democrats to change that in the next several cycles. [42:32] Congressman, give me some hope. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. I need a little of that. [42:36] Congressman Maxwell Frost is a member of the House Oversight Committee. We appreciate your time as always.