The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell - July 29 — Audio Only

[0:01] It's the time for the last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Hey, Lawrence. [0:04] Hey, Jen. As you mentioned, we have James Tallarico joining us tonight from Texas [0:08] during his Texas Senate campaign. And I wonder, I'm going to ask him if he agrees [0:15] with Donald Trump's decision to cut funding for Medicare prescription drug benefits [0:22] for people who were helped in that funding by Joe Biden's provisions that Donald Trump has now [0:29] decided to end right in the middle of important Senate campaigns. And people will learn in the [0:37] fall, which is crazy. I just asked Josh Turek about this, who I know you spoke with, [0:42] who could be the next senator from Iowa. It really is a reminder of the stark contrast here, [0:46] isn't it? These Senate candidates. Yeah. And it shows you how difficult it is to be a Republican [0:52] candidate for Senate with Donald Trump as president. And having to answer for his policies. It's a [0:57] real challenge. Every single one of those Trump policies. That's right. [1:02] Exactly. Thanks, Jen. Thanks, Lawrence. [1:06] Well, Donald Trump has achieved the worst polling ever for an American commander in chief during [1:14] wartime. 72% of Americans disapprove of how Donald Trump is handling his war in Iran. The war Donald [1:23] Trump started. Not one of the presidents, the three presidents who presided over the Vietnam War, [1:31] had such a negative polling of their handling of that disastrous war. And Republican senators [1:39] continue to vote to approve Donald Trump's war in Iran every time the Democratic Senate leader, [1:46] Chuck Schumer, forces a vote on limiting Donald Trump's war powers. Ohio Senator Bernie Moreno has [1:52] voted to approve Donald Trump's war every single time. It has come to a vote in the United States Senate. [2:00] And today, Senator Moreno tried to take on the role of my cousin Vinny in the United States Senate. [2:10] Who the fuck do you think you were for doing that? If you're in deep shit, that's who you call. Do you feel [2:16] like you're in deep shit? Of course, if Joe Pesci were playing the kind of character he played in [2:23] my cousin Vinny as a United States Senator, at least he'd be funny. Bernie Moreno's one and only [2:30] contribution to the United States Senate in his first term as a senator has been to introduce punk [2:38] profanity to Senate proceedings. That's his big Senate achievement. Bernie Moreno's target in that [2:46] hearing today was a man who has done more in service to this country and the world than every senator in [2:54] that room and the entire current United States Senate combined. Dr. Anthony Fauci. There was a time in Dr. [3:04] Fauci's 54 year career where no one hated or pretended to hate Dr. Fauci. No one lied about him. Here is [3:12] Republican Vice President George H.W. Bush in 1988. Who are the heroes who are there in American life today? Who are [3:22] the ones that you would point out to young Americans as figures who should inspire this country? I think [3:29] a Dr. Fauci probably never heard of him. You did and heard of him. He's a very fine research top doctor [3:36] at National Institute of Health working hard doing something about research on this disease of AIDS. [3:42] And here is President George W. Bush in 2008. Those who know Tony do admit one flaw. Sometimes he [3:54] forgets to stop working. He regularly puts in 80 hour weeks. And from time to time, he's even found notes on his [4:02] windshield left by his co workers. They say things like go home, you're making me feel guilty. No Republican [4:11] Senator mentioned today that on his last day in office on January 19 2021, Donald Trump gave Dr. Fauci the [4:22] presidential commendation. The New York Times called today's hearing quote, a useless drama that offered [4:29] zero insights. The chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, Rand Paul, who called today's hearing has for [4:36] years falsely claimed that Dr. Fauci refused to ever consider the possibility that COVID-19 originated in an infectious [4:44] disease laboratory in Wuhan, China. Dr. Fauci has said repeatedly for years that he did consider that theory. He has [4:52] examined possible sources of the virus, including a deliberate or accidental leak from that lab in China. [5:00] And Dr. Fauci has concluded that it is more likely to have originated in nature. Like most scientists studying [5:08] the issue, Dr. Fauci has never said the exact origin of the COVID-19 virus has been scientifically proved. [5:18] Rand Paul released a thousand pages of Dr. Fauci's diary like notes that Dr. Fauci kept on his office [5:27] computer, which remained in government custody when he left government service. The New York Times reports [5:32] quote, the diary does not provide the smoking gun the Senator is seeking rather it echoes past disclosures [5:39] showing Dr. Fauci wrestling with a fast moving crisis as scientists views evolved. In fact, the diary entries [5:48] show that in the earliest days of Dr. Fauci's concern about COVID-19, before most of us had even heard [5:55] of COVID-19, Dr. Fauci was convening a meeting to discuss the possibility of the Wuhan lab having leaked [6:05] the virus accidentally or deliberately. And that diary information is not news because in February of 2020, [6:14] before most of us even began to worry about COVID-19, Dr. Fauci told USA Today that they were considering [6:20] the possibility of a lab leak as the origin. Senator Richard Blumenthal reminded the committee [6:28] of those dark days in 2020. [6:31] I want to go back to the dark days of the coronavirus pandemic, one of the darkest days or times in our [6:43] history. Hospitals were overflowing. Navy medical ships were docked in the Hudson River. Emergency rooms were forced [6:52] into unprecedented triaging. During the worst week of the pandemic, which happens to have been the last week of [7:00] President Trump's first term, more than 25,000 Americans died of COVID-19. Easy to forget those dark days. [7:11] But for the past 18 months, the Trump administration has been engaged in a campaign to rewrite this history. [7:20] And today's proceeding, I fear, is part of that effort. One of the darkest days in our Senate's history. [7:31] One of the darkest days in our Senate's history. That is exactly what it was. [7:36] Republican senators disgraced themselves today, attacking the man who saved lives, possibly millions of lives, [7:43] during the COVID-19 outbreak. The man who helped speed the development of a vaccine because of the research [7:49] that he had led and supported on exactly that kind of virus for years before the outbreak of the pandemic, [7:58] in anticipation of exactly the kind of pandemic that hit the world in 2020. [8:03] That's why that vaccine that has saved so many of our lives reached us so quickly. [8:10] And not one senator in that room today did one thing to save a single life during the COVID-19 pandemic. [8:17] Not one of them. But they lined up to get their COVID-19 vaccine shots as soon as they possibly could. [8:23] And they never thanked Dr. Fauci for helping speed the development of that vaccine. [8:28] Anthony Fauci has been attacked before. In the 1980s, when AIDS suddenly began its deadly rampage in [8:35] the United States, Dr. Fauci led the medical response. He directed and supported research. [8:40] He directed and supported possible therapeutic treatments and experimental treatments. [8:46] As more and more people died every day, the communities that that disease was ravaging protested. [8:52] And Dr. Fauci sympathized with the protesters. [8:56] Dr. There is a feeling among members of any of a number of professions or just the general population [9:07] that patients with AIDS, many of whom are homosexual, are a little bit different. [9:12] I think that that has led to a little bit of a complacency about the approach towards this disease. [9:19] Some frustrated and agonized AIDS activists came to Washington and hung Dr. Fauci in effigy, [9:29] outside his office building, objecting to the pace of his work. Dr. Fauci knew that he had to continue his careful, [9:36] deliberate scientific approach, but he also felt compelled to explain what he was doing and why [9:43] it wasn't happening faster. And so he met with the people who attacked him. Dr. Fauci went to [9:48] Greenwich Village. He went to San Francisco. He met with AIDS activists there, some of whom were calling [9:53] him a murderer. He listened and he sympathized with them. The loudest and most eloquent voice among the [10:01] protesters was the playwright Larry Kramer. Larry Kramer screamed at Dr. Fauci repeatedly, [10:07] called him a murderer, and eventually befriended Tony Fauci as he came to realize that Dr. Fauci was the [10:14] most effective ally that AIDS activists had. And years later, many years later, after having lived to [10:23] the age of 84 while being HIV positive, thanks to the medical advances supported by Dr. Fauci. Larry [10:32] Kramer, on his deathbed, had these last words for his visitor, Tony Fauci. I love you, Tony. Dr. Fauci said [10:42] through his tears, I love you, Larry. Dr. Fauci noted that kind of protest in his diaries in various ways. [10:55] The Fauci diaries released by Rand Paul reveals someone else saying, I love you, Tony. The June 2, [11:03] 2020 entry in Dr. Fauci's diary says, quote, as usual, POTUS was very warm and friendly with me. [11:10] When he walked into the Oval with us waiting, I was standing next to the door and he said, [11:14] I love you, Tony. I feel like giving you a big hug. Rand Paul didn't quote that diary entry today. [11:24] Some news accounts of Dr. Fauci's diary, which reads as a straightforward description and actual [11:31] accounting of what was happening to him every day, almost all of which is about the virus he was [11:37] trying to conquer, find fault with Dr. Fauci for recording things that actually happened to him, [11:43] like phone calls with Barbra Streisand and other celebrities. Dr. Fauci has been accused of name [11:50] dropping in his diary, which is impossible because he's name dropping in a document that no one else [11:59] was ever supposed to read. He mentions names like Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Leonardo DiCaprio, [12:06] and Francis Ford Coppola, all in the same sentence actually, because he mentions them in a diary entry [12:13] about receiving the Leonardo da Vinci award from the Italian American Foundation. And so, yeah, [12:20] some famous Italian Americans were there. The most famous Italian Americans were there. And I don't [12:27] know anyone who's met those people who hasn't made some kind of note about it and told someone about it. [12:34] And so Dr. Fauci mentioned those names to his diary, where there is no bragging. There's no bragging in [12:42] that diary. It's a record of who he met, of who he talked to. There's no excitement. There's no glee [12:50] about the surge in his fame that he records in his diary. He marvels at the weirdness of it, [12:56] as has every single person in the history of massive rocketing surges in personal fame. [13:06] Whenever that happens, people find it strange and disorienting. And that's what Dr. Fauci records, [13:13] that it was strange and disorienting. 99% of his diary during the COVID-19 pandemic is about the [13:21] COVID-19 pandemic. There is nothing in the diary that reeks of vanity. Rand Paul has said that Dr. [13:28] Fauci should be in prison without ever once having named an actual crime that Dr. Fauci could ever be [13:34] charged with. Anthony Fauci, who has testified to Congress possibly more than any other American in [13:41] history, decided that today would be different. Chairman, member Peters, members of the committee, [13:52] I served at the NIH for over 54 years, 38 of those as director of the National Institute of Allergy and [14:00] Infectious Diseases. Over that period, I proved that I believe in and respect the value of legitimate [14:09] congressional oversight. In fact, I testified before and or briefed Senate and House congressional [14:18] Senate and House committees well over 200 times over those 38 years. During and after the COVID pandemic, [14:30] I have appeared multiple times for hearings in the Senate and the House, [14:36] usually under oath, and sat for several days-long transcribed sworn interviews answering questions [14:46] about the very issues that are now the subject of this hearing. However, given Senator Paul's obvious [14:56] obsession with calling for my prosecution, his repeated slanderous comments about me, [15:04] and recently his publicly releasing my unredacted personal diary aimed at embarrassing and intimidating me, [15:18] the only conclusion I can reach is that the sole reason he is calling me before this committee is to get [15:27] me to say something, anything that could vindicate his repeated public pledges that I end up in his [15:37] words, quote, behind bars, unquote. Any reasonable person who has followed his unhinged obsession [15:48] with me would readily come to the same conclusion. Therefore, although it pains me to do so because of [15:58] the respect I have for the legislative branch of government and my decades-long record of cooperating [16:07] with Congress, under the advice of my attorneys, I will invoke my right under the Fifth Amendment of [16:15] the Constitution to refrain from answering your questions. Thank you. [16:20] And that led Rand Paul to turn his hearing room into the most disgraceful Stalinist tribunal the United [16:31] States Senate has ever seen. It's against the law to obstruct an investigation of Congress. There will [16:41] be repercussions to your refusal to testify today, Senator Peters. You're not recognized. You're not recognized. [16:56] If you are unruly, you will be removed from the proceeding. You are not recognized. And you are not recognized, sir. [17:04] Sir, you are not recognized. You are not recognized. Security, we'll hold off. But you will respect these [17:15] proceedings. You were told not to sit at the table. You insist on sitting at the table. And we told you you [17:21] would not be recognized. You are not invited here for testimony, sir. You are being disruptive. Would [17:29] you behave this way in a courtroom? No, because the judge would put you in jail. I can't do that today, [17:34] but I can have you escorted from the premises. So I would say, sir, sit quietly and don't say another word. [17:40] I said sit quietly. You are not recognized. Another word and you're gone. [17:44] Mr. Chairman, I'd like to hear what the attorney has to say. He is not recognized by the committee [17:57] or the chair. If he speaks again, he will be removed from the room. This testimony is from [18:03] Anthony Fauci. This is not a game with his lawyers. He can advise. His lawyers can give him advice. [18:10] He's got a half dozen here. They're all allowed to talk to him. All right. But the attorneys are not [18:16] recognized. In fact, the attorney was told not to sit at the table and he's not obeying that [18:21] recommendation. There's a row behind you, sir. That's where you were told to sit and you're not. [18:26] And now you're disrupting the proceedings. And so look, this is the way Anthony Fauci wants to be [18:31] remembered for a lawyer, not listening to the rules. That's the way you want to be remembered. [18:35] And that's what you're going to do. You are not recognized, sir. Security, please remove him from the [18:42] room. Throwing the lawyer out of the room. Joe McCarthy at his worst never did that. Joe McCarthy [19:23] was an alcoholic Republican senator conducting phony witch hunts of suspected communists in the 1950s [19:31] in a Senate hearing room. And he never did, never did what Rand Paul did today. Throw the lawyer out [19:37] of the room. That is how weak and lost and deranged a committee chairman Rand Paul is. Senator Blumenthal was [19:45] right. It was one of the darkest days in our Senate's history. Anthony Fauci helped saved millions of [19:52] lives with his work on HIV medications. He expanded his life saving reach to Africa with the support of [19:59] George W. Bush by creating a president's emergency fund to support AIDS treatment in Africa that saved [20:06] over 25 million lives before Elon Musk and Donald Trump decided that those lives were not worth saving. [20:13] Not one Republican Congressional Committee, not one Republican Senator is investigating how many [20:18] thousands of people have died because Donald Trump and Elon Musk took their life saving HIV medicine [20:24] away. Not one Republican Congressional Committee is investigating how many babies have starved to [20:30] death because Elon Musk decided to let food supplies that had already been delivered to Africa rot in [20:36] warehouses instead of distributing that food to starving people. That is the Republican contribution [20:43] to public health in today's world. And not one Republican Senator has ever objected to taking that food [20:50] assistance away from starving children and starving mothers and starving grandmothers and taking life [20:55] saving medicine away from people who cannot get that life saving medicine any other way. The life saving [21:02] medicine that Dr. Anthony Fauci helped them get. There is no higher calling than saving lives. There is nothing [21:10] we could ever do more important than saving a single life. And most of us will never know that feeling of saving [21:19] a life. And all of us owe our gratitude to Anthony Fauci and many of us may owe our lives to Anthony Fauci. And Anthony [21:29] Fauci owes nothing to Republicans in the United States Senate. He does not owe them an answer to a single [21:37] question. He's already answered every one of the questions that they were throwing around that room [21:44] today. He's answered them many times in congressional testimony and in other interviews. Every one of them, [21:53] every one of those questions, he's answered in previous appearances. Sometimes news stories come down to a very [22:01] simple, right and wrong. And this is one of them. Anthony Fauci is right. And every one of those [22:09] Republican senators is very, very wrong. Coming up, we have breaking news in the next segment. Republicans [22:19] on the Senate Judiciary Committee have been forced to postpone tomorrow's confirmation vote for Todd Blanche [22:24] as Attorney General. That nomination is now in trouble tonight. Andrew Weissman will join us next. [22:30] The breaking news tonight is that the Republican Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee has postponed [22:45] tomorrow's Attorney General confirmation vote in the committee for Donald Trump's former criminal [22:51] defense attorney Todd Blanche. MS Now has confirmed this. MS Now is reporting that a spokesperson for [22:57] Republican Chairman Chuck Grassley says that quote, Senators Cornyn and Tillis want written assurances [23:02] from the Department of Justice regarding the Trump IRS settlement. Turning us now is Andrew Weissman, [23:09] former FBI general counsel and an MS Now legal analyst. He's our author of the new bestselling book, [23:14] Liar's Kingdom, How to Stop Trump's Deceit and Save America, a New York Times bestseller. [23:20] Andrew, this is all about the Trump slush fund. This is what these two senators have said is one of their [23:27] key issues from the start. And they apparently want something in writing after Senator Cornyn [23:33] exposed in the confirmation hearing that that agreement is still in force. And Donald Trump's [23:41] lawyers could just decide they want to enforce it. Absolutely. So there are two components to that [23:47] agreement. One is the slush fund, the $1.776 billion that is a signed agreement. And that money could be [23:58] used for all sorts of purposes, including paying convicted criminals. In fact, to be clear, the [24:04] Department of Justice is already using other funds to do just that, to pay convicted criminals. [24:10] And so you can understand why those senators and other senators should be worried. And then, [24:15] of course, there's the second component of what Todd Blanch and Todd Blanch alone signed, [24:21] which is the general release of the president, his family members and his companies for tax liability. [24:31] So those are two huge reasons that you can see the Senate being quite concerned. There are many others, [24:38] but those are at least two. The nomination, if it cannot get voted out of a committee, [24:44] can still make it to the Senate floor, but it basically limps onto the Senate floor at that [24:49] point. Procedurally, it's a much more difficult vote on the Senate floor to get it through. So this [24:54] is a crucial moment here with these two Republicans. They're asking apparently for something in writing. [25:01] What could be put in writing that would mean the slush fund is gone and the complete immunity for [25:09] tax evasion is gone? Well, they could put in writing that it's a nullity that the fund is actually, [25:18] that the parties to that agreement, and that's not Todd Blanch, have agreed that it is no longer in [25:26] force. They also, it could be agreed by the president that the general release is no longer [25:34] valid. And that, that is something that Todd Blanch personally signed. Indeed, [25:39] it appears no one else was willing to sign it. And Todd Blanch did. Can I just take a moment though [25:46] to say on a different subject, although it is related, that I am so grateful to you for calling out [25:54] just how much Dr. Fauci is a national hero and how much we owe him a debt of gratitude. And it is so [26:04] understandable why he would be forced to take the Fifth Amendment given people like Todd Blanch and [26:12] Senator Paul in terms of just how reckless they are behaving. I would have given that exact same [26:19] advice to Dr. Fauci, but it is a sad day for this country to see that spectacle for somebody who we [26:26] owe so much to, who has lived a life of public service and saved so many lives. So thank you for [26:34] covering that. Such an important point, Andrew. Thank you very much for joining us. [26:39] You're welcome. And coming up, a new poll of Texas voters shows our next guest, [26:46] Democrat James Tallarico ahead of Donald Trump's pick for United States Senate. James Tallarico [26:53] joins us next. In Texas, a new poll shows Democratic nominee for Senate James Tallarico leading Texas [27:07] Republican Attorney General Ken Paxton by 5 points, 45 to 40. That poll is still within the margin of error [27:13] and it is the largest lead James Tallarico has had in any public general election poll. Today, [27:20] the campaign's announced they have agreed to debate three times this fall after James Tallarico [27:25] challenged Ken Paxton to a series of debates. Last night, James Tallarico made his case to voters in [27:33] Lockhart, Texas. We have an affordability crisis because we have a corruption crisis. We don't have a [27:43] government of, by, and for the people. Things would be different if we did. We have a government of, [27:49] by, and for the billionaires. The system is working exactly as it was intended to work. [27:55] There is something broken in America. This is not just a political battle. This is a spiritual battle [28:04] between selfishness and service, between greed and greatness, real greatness. I think after decades of [28:15] this corruption, we are on the cusp of returning to those old-fashioned values, the values of my [28:23] great-grandfather, the values of the greatest generation, service, sacrifice, doing what's right [28:30] even when no one is watching. Ken Paxton has been selling us out for years, for decades, and he's gotten [28:38] away with it. They've all gotten away with it. But that ends this year, in this state, in this race. [28:51] Joining us now is Texas State Representative James Tallarico, Democratic nominee for United [28:55] States Senate in Texas. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. In that clip we just showed, [29:00] you led with affordability, but you joined it to another major issue, which I think is a framing that [29:07] I haven't heard before when you said we have an affordability crisis because we have a corruption [29:15] crisis. Those are two sides of the same coin. Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I've been [29:21] traveling to every corner of Texas, big cities, small towns like Lockhart, red areas, blue areas [29:27] alike. And everywhere I go, I hear from Texans. I hear about the struggles to afford the basics. Texans are [29:34] drowning. And it's not like we're spending money on nice clothes or nice cars or nice vacations. [29:40] We're spending our money on the necessities, groceries, gas, healthcare, insurance, utilities. [29:47] And it's because for 50 years, puppet politicians like Ken Paxton have been rigging this economy in [29:55] favor of their billionaire mega donors at our expense. And it's been theft. I mean, [30:01] trickle down economics is not a theory. It is theft. And it's been with their bribes, their bailouts, [30:08] their billionaire tax breaks, they've been stealing from the American people. [30:12] This affordability crisis has really hit its peak, especially over the last few years, [30:17] as prices have skyrocketed. But it's been a problem 50 years in the making. Our wages, our income, [30:23] our pay has remained stagnant or it's declined. Our power in the economy has been chipped away at. [30:30] And so we're trying to tell the big story about what's happened to the middle class in this country. [30:36] And it's not a problem just over the last five years. It's a problem over the last 50 years. [30:42] So Donald Trump has just decided to cut funding for Medicare prescription drug benefits, [30:51] Medicare being a crucial program Americans have been relying on since the last, the really most [30:59] powerful democratic politician in Texas history. President Lyndon Baines Johnson signed Medicare [31:04] into law. This, and this is from the same president who said yesterday, once again, I just want to try to [31:11] get his quote exactly right. He said, this word affordability is made up by the Democrats. So [31:20] affordability is made up by the Democrats. And he seems to think people will have no trouble spending [31:25] more money to afford prescription drugs on Medicare. Well, the president needs to get out of the White [31:32] House and get out in the country and hear from Americans about the, the struggles that they're facing, [31:42] because healthcare is just one of them, but it's also housing. It's also childcare, which is now more [31:47] expensive than college in the state of Texas. The middle class has been decimated in this country. You [31:53] mentioned Lyndon Johnson. This is LBJ Senate seat that I'm running for. It was a Texas Democrat who signed [32:01] Medicare into law, who signed Medicaid into law, who signed Head Start and Title I into law, who signed [32:07] the Voting Rights Act into law. And bit by bit, this administration has chipped away at the great [32:14] society, has chipped away at the middle class. And the fight in this country is not really left versus [32:21] right. It is top versus bottom. It's all of us, whether you're a little more conservative or a little [32:27] more progressive. It's all of us coming together to take on the people at the top, the billionaires [32:33] and their puppet politicians like Ken Paxton, who have been screwing us over for far too long. [32:38] That's the movement we're building in Texas. And it's why you're seeing us make this progress, [32:43] because we are bringing working people together to take on this corruption so we can lower our costs. [32:48] So you've agreed to these three debates. The schedule is September 22nd, [32:53] all Tuesdays, September 22nd, October 6th, October 13th. Ken Paxton and the Republican TV ad campaign [33:01] has been throwing all sorts of junk at you. And so this first time we're going to see you confronting [33:07] this very directly with Paxton will be September 22nd. Do you expect him to bring into the debate [33:17] all the kinds of insulting junk he's been throwing around? Well, you know, Ken Paxton has not accepted [33:26] any of these debates yet. When I get tough questions, I answer them. When Ken Paxton gets tough [33:32] questions, he runs away, literally runs away from reporters, from voters, from anyone asking hard [33:40] questions. If you've given an Epstein style sweetheart deal to an admitted child predator, you should have to [33:47] answer the public's questions. If you were reported to the FBI for bribery by your own staff, you should [33:53] have to answer the public's questions. If you've become a multimillionaire on a government salary and [33:59] now own 15 homes on the public's dime, then you should have to answer the public's questions. I get it. [34:06] If I had Ken Paxton's record of corruption, I wouldn't want to answer these questions either. But he's [34:12] asking for your vote. He is asking for your trust. And the people of Texas deserve answers. So I've [34:19] challenged Ken Paxton to these three televised debates. The networks have already set the dates [34:25] and the times and the locations. We're just waiting on Ken Paxton. I'm not afraid of tough questions. [34:31] We'll see if Ken Paxton can say the same. So there could be an empty chair at these debates. [34:36] There might be. And Ken Paxton has a long history of saying one thing and doing another, of promising [34:44] to show up and then and then not showing up. And so I'll believe it when he walks on of that debate [34:50] stage. I think the people of Texas deserve answers to their very legitimate questions about his career [34:56] of corruption. He hasn't debated in more than a decade. He hasn't made himself available to questions [35:01] from the public. And I think that should end this November as Texans face this very important choice [35:08] on November 3rd. James Tallarico, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thanks for having me. [35:15] Coming up, Elon Musk, who was described by Bill Gates as the world's richest man killing the world's [35:20] poorest children, was confronted by an interviewer about who has died because he destroyed the United [35:29] States Agency for International Development. You'll see Elon Musk's answer next. A new report by the [35:41] Foundation for AIDS Research details the impact of cuts by Donald Trump to PEPFAR, the President's [35:47] Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief. The report says the study found that at least 1,714 HIV service sites [35:57] around the world, including public health facilities, mobile clinics, drop-in centers, and specialized [36:02] HIV facilities closed entirely after terminated or delayed PEPFAR payments. Almost no organizations [36:09] were able to replace lost funding from other sources. The report provoked the editorial board [36:16] of the Washington Post to write, [36:19] In terms of dollars spent and lives saved, the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, known as [36:25] PEPFAR, has generated a stellar return on investment and a solid demonstration of [36:31] soft power in Africa. That's why it's essential the Trump administration actually spend the money [36:38] Congress has appropriated to keep it going. Since its creation under President George W. Bush in 2003, [36:44] the program has saved an estimated 26 million lives in over 50 countries. The total cost over 23 years [36:52] has been 130 billion dollars, about eight-tenths of a percent of federal spending. In its frenzy to [37:03] slash foreign aid, the State Department cut spending on PEPFAR last year by 30 percent. Jeff Bezos, the owner [37:11] of the Washington Post that published that editorial, could personally pay for the entire PEPFAR program [37:20] every year and still keep getting much, much richer every year. In an interview last week with the [37:28] economist Elon Musk was asked about the destruction of the United States Agency for International [37:33] Development, which was described by Bill Gates as the world's richest man killing the world's poorest [37:40] children. So you don't buy the idea that anybody, to put it really crudely and simply, any kid in Africa [37:48] died because of the suddenness with which... Zero. I just don't think that's right. Zero died because... [37:55] Well, that's what I, that's what I would, that's what I would take issue with. Zero. [38:01] Journey us now is Dr. Atul Gawande, former Assistant Administrator for Global Health at the U.S. Agency [38:06] for International Development. Dr. Gawande, is the correct answer to that question 0.0? [38:12] It is so far from that number. It's hundreds of thousands that are estimated to have died, [38:18] and many, many documented cases. Just to point one pin in it, WHO reported this year that in 2025, [38:27] 53 million people had lost health emergency assistance, including 14 million children who lost [38:34] services for malnutrition, for starvation. And so when Elon Musk sits there and says 0.0, [38:45] what, what would you want to say back to him? There's many things that we have been pointing [38:53] out continually along the way. The bomb blast that was the shutdown of USAID and the closure of foreign [39:01] aid for a big part of 2025 has had waves of effect. What I described happening to emergency services, [39:10] malnutrition, refugee assistance, disaster relief. That was the first wave with 700,000 estimated to [39:20] have died from things like malnutrition, poorer outcomes at childbirth, and so on. Now you're [39:26] citing the data around wave two, where we're seeing resurgence of infectious diseases, HIV. One of the data [39:33] points that was also released was there are 77,000 children with HIV who are not getting treatment [39:42] now that were getting treatment before. And what are their life prospects now? If you take HIV treatment [39:50] away from a child in that condition, what happens? Well, children who don't have the same level of immune [40:00] system to begin with, end up dying fairly quickly in a matter of weeks to months. And we have seen [40:08] names of children publicized by many journalists, many different cases laying out what's happening. [40:16] Now, the larger picture is adults losing treatment. And those take longer, we will be seeing the [40:24] consequences for years to come of some of the biggest cuts being in prevention of HIV. And then we [40:30] haven't even touched TB, malaria, and ways that other diseases have been cut back. [40:37] Well, please go ahead and tell us what we should know about TB and malaria. [40:43] Well, what I'd point out is that first of all, in these areas, you've had over, you know, HIV was a 30% [40:52] cutback. In maternal and child health as a field, the cutbacks have been over 80%. The closures have also [40:59] dismantled infrastructure that made sure that we had people on the ground to prevent outbreaks and [41:07] drive major goals of improving child survival. So now the hardest and most damaging part of what's been [41:14] done is that we have abandoned goals like ending HIV by 2030, reversing the rise in TB deaths and being [41:23] able to drive those down the biggest infectious disease killer in the world, and being able to [41:29] now we're facing a year last year, that's projected to turn out to have been the first reduction [41:36] in child survival in over half a century. These are goals that have been abandoned, reducing child [41:44] mortality, controlling diseases around the world, and partnering with countries to get their health [41:50] systems into a state of self-sufficiency. And so that's what's so damaging is it's not only the cuts, [41:58] it's the loss of that mission in the first place that we offer a helping hand. Dr. Atul Gawande, [42:05] thank you very much for the important work you have done and continue to do and for joining us here [42:10] tonight. Thank you. We'll be right back. Dr. Atul Gawande gets tonight's last word.