The FIGHT against Trump could HINGE on this key race

[0:00] We would create these Facebook groups about, for people that like, you know, [0:04] cats and Beyonce and chocolate chip cookies. [0:07] And so if you are a person that loves, okay, you would be in the group. [0:11] And in the group, within the content in these groups, [0:14] we would only post about cats, Beyonce, and chocolate chip cookies. [0:18] And then, slowly, we would start to introduce political content into... [0:23] I don't like that either, to be honest. [0:25] I just want to preface this entire episode with, and please leave this in, [0:38] Eugene and I, for the next two weeks, for the people that listen to this podcast, [0:42] I know you're like, oh my God, I love Simone and Eugene together. [0:45] Y'all are so funny. I really feel like I'm in your group chat. [0:48] Let me tell you something. Y'all about to be tired of us. [0:49] I'm about to be tired of Eugene. He is guest hosting every night, okay? [0:54] For about two weeks. [0:56] We're doing these podcasts. We're going to Atlanta to do a live show. [1:01] This is like the test of the relationship. [1:03] It's like during COVID, when you were like stuck with your partner. [1:06] It was like, if you make it out of COVID, you could make it anywhere. [1:08] If we make it out this three weeks, we could make it anywhere. [1:11] Well, you know what? When I came out of COVID, I had a ring, so... [1:14] Oh, hello. [1:15] Greetings. Let's get into it, okay? [1:18] Greetings, folks, and welcome to Clock It! [1:22] We'll see how long Eugene and I last. [1:24] We are taking bets in the comments for if our relationship will survive this next three weeks. [1:28] Not CalShare Polymarket, though. [1:30] No, no. Not those kind of bets. [1:32] Normal, fake ones. [1:32] Okay, regular... [1:33] Exactly. Regular bets. [1:35] Mm-hmm. [1:35] As, you know, they have so often been this spring and summer, gas is up, Eugene. [1:40] Inflation is up, and the morale is low. [1:43] Indeed, Trump is now polling at the same rate his Warner Ron is. [1:48] 39% approval. [1:51] That is low. That is low. [1:52] But you know what, folks? [1:53] Y'all made it to Thursday, okay? [1:55] Clock the day. [1:56] The news isn't great, but we look good. [1:58] We do. She looked like Calypso from Odyssey at first, so we made her change. [2:04] I still have the pants on. [2:06] We're gonna kick it off this week with a checkup on the DNC. [2:10] The big news, you guys probably heard about it, [2:12] is that the Democratic National Committee has changed its presidential primary calendar. [2:16] We're gonna start there. There's a lot to talk about. [2:18] Last time they did this, in 2024, South Carolina went first instead of Iowa, [2:23] which had been going first for 52 years. [2:26] I was at Iowa in 2020. It was raggedy. [2:29] That's one reason why they lost their seat. [2:30] Next time, in 2028, South Carolina will go first again, [2:34] which had been in doubt a little bit, not gonna lie. [2:37] But late last week, the DNC voted to change the order of the primary. [2:41] So, after South Carolina, then you have Nevada, then New Hampshire, [2:45] then New Mexico, Michigan, and Virginia, then Super Tuesday. [2:49] Now, this still has to be voted on by the whole DNC, [2:52] but it appears that this is kind of where we're gonna end up. [2:56] I want to talk about why Democrats changed the calendar again, [2:59] while keeping South Carolina first, certainly in front of Iowa, [3:02] because almost a quarter of the people who live in South Carolina are Black. [3:06] About 4% of people who live in Iowa are Black. [3:09] And as we all know, Black people are the foundation of the Democratic Party. [3:13] But I will also just say, I'm a Black person from the Midwest. [3:17] Okay, so also, as a Black person from the Midwest, [3:19] a neighbor to Iowa and Nebraska. [3:20] You exist. [3:21] Right, we do exist. [3:22] So, the Black people in Iowa matter, too. [3:25] Yes, we love them. [3:27] We love the whole diaspora. [3:29] The reason... [3:30] I'll say three things on this. [3:33] My first thing is that the primary calendar is for the Democrats. [3:37] Okay, I'm gonna speak to what I know. [3:39] I'm a former DNC member. [3:40] I have also been previously a consultant for the DNC. [3:44] She's elected a president. [3:45] I've elected a president, and I've lost the presidential race. [3:48] So, I feel like I'm quite qualified, actually. [3:49] I don't want to bring that one up. [3:50] Well, you know, the losses matter, too. [3:53] I still believe in the political revolution, okay? [3:55] Fist emoji. [3:56] Fist emoji. [3:56] Power to the people. [3:58] The primary calendar is designed on the Democratic side of the aisle [4:01] to put the nominee, whoever the eventual nominee is that emerges, [4:05] through a very rigorous test. [4:07] So, the first four states, there's actually, long story short, [4:12] there's a rule inside the Democratic National Committee bylaws [4:15] that say all of the states cannot hold any contests prior to Super Tuesday, essentially. [4:21] The language doesn't say Super Tuesday. [4:22] It says, like, the first Tuesday in March, da-da-da-da. [4:25] But that's Super Tuesday. [4:26] And the rules of the Democratic National Committee say, [4:29] if you would like to hold your primary before that, [4:33] the DNC understands that there are primaries that should go earlier, [4:36] and they will issue a waiver. [4:38] So, what happened is, the Rules and Bylaws Committee [4:40] of the Democratic National Committee, they met, [4:42] they had been meeting for a long time, [4:44] and they decided to vote on weeks, okay? [4:47] And so, the states that Eugene laid out [4:49] are the states that got the waivers. [4:50] And they picked the order of the states. [4:54] I think the order matters, okay? [4:56] Do you think this is a good order? [4:58] Yes, but I do think that the role now [5:02] of a state like South Carolina changes. [5:04] South Carolina used to be a decider [5:05] in the presidential primary process. [5:07] So, that's why people in South Carolina, [5:09] when you talk to them, they often say, [5:11] you know, South Carolina chooses presidents. [5:12] A lot of times, if you end up winning the primary in South Carolina, [5:16] you go on to win the Democratic nomination, [5:18] and a number... [5:18] Super Tuesday, and then you're off to the races, yeah. [5:20] Now, South Carolina is not choosing presidents. [5:23] South Carolina's role in the process [5:24] will be culling or narrowing the field, [5:27] which is still a very important... [5:28] Early, which is a very important process. [5:29] Because if you cannot win Black voters, to your point, [5:32] you will not be the Democratic nominee, [5:35] but you also have to be able to win Latino voters, [5:37] and Hispanic voters, white people. [5:39] Arab Americans, there's a lot of people. [5:40] Come on now. [5:41] Rural areas, they want to know [5:42] if, like, some moderate voters [5:44] would be willing to vote for you, and that is... [5:46] Young voters, old voters. [5:47] Come on now. [5:48] Y'all got a big tent over there, the Democrats, [5:50] so it's a long list of people you have to win. [5:53] The tent is very vast. [5:54] And so I do think that this calendar, [5:57] these states that got the waiver do provide a rigorous test. [6:01] The second thing that I'll say is, [6:02] I think it is very notable that there is a week-long gap [6:05] between the last contest and Super Tuesday. [6:07] So the last contest and these waivers happens, [6:11] and usually then Super Tuesday [6:13] is literally the Tuesday right after that. [6:15] This time, candidates have an entire week [6:17] to get their ish together [6:19] and potentially make a run on Super Tuesday, [6:22] which matters because that is the place [6:23] where the most delegates will be awarded. [6:25] Lastly, for all these people saying, [6:28] oh, why are we not focusing on a state [6:32] that is a battleground? [6:33] Oh, my goodness. [6:34] These people are... [6:35] South Carolina doesn't matter. [6:36] Why New Mexico? [6:37] I encourage you to look at the media markets, okay? [6:40] Mm-hmm. [6:40] This is... [6:41] Okay? [6:42] South Carolina shares media markets [6:44] with key places in North Carolina. [6:48] That matters. [6:49] And it's cheaper to advertise in South Carolina, right, [6:52] than it is to advertise in North Carolina [6:53] when it comes to the general election. [6:54] Not to say that people won't be advertising in North Carolina, [6:57] but that's just one example [6:58] of how a state can play many different roles. [7:01] So I think this is good. [7:03] It was trying to be a black and brown thing, though, [7:04] within the party, Eugene. [7:05] I mean, it was a little black-on-brown violence, [7:09] but, you know, they come together. [7:11] You know what's interesting to me is, [7:12] like, my family's from South Carolina. [7:14] We've talked about that a lot. [7:16] My husband's from South Carolina. [7:17] Yeah, so we got a lot of South Carolina roots. [7:19] So you're going to South Carolina very soon, I think. [7:21] I'm going to, yes, child. [7:22] Isle of Palm, clock in. [7:24] I thought it was interesting that they kept South Carolina [7:26] because originally the conventional wisdom [7:29] was the reason South Carolina was number one in 2024 [7:32] was because of Biden, right? [7:34] That, like, it was just to make sure [7:35] that Biden didn't get anyone to try to take his spot. [7:39] We said, how well that worked out. [7:40] But so I thought it was interesting [7:41] that they kept it there. [7:42] I mean, he did win the primary. [7:44] He... [7:44] That was it. [7:47] Didn't keep it. [7:48] Move on. [7:49] Which matters. [7:49] Keeping it matters. [7:51] But I do think that... [7:53] I was talking to someone the other day, [7:54] and they said, [7:55] doesn't this dilute the power of black voters? [7:58] Now that they're, as you said, [7:59] not the deciders, [8:00] but they're culling early. [8:01] And I said, what I think is interesting [8:03] about these states [8:04] and the ones that they chose [8:06] is that there's... [8:07] It represents really well [8:09] the Democratic coalition, right? [8:12] You have black voters, Latino voters. [8:14] You start to move out to New Hampshire [8:16] where there's, you know, [8:17] there's wider voters. [8:18] You get to New Mexico [8:19] where there's a little bit more [8:20] of an independent street. [8:22] You get to Michigan, [8:23] which is a real battleground. [8:26] Virginia, also, I would suggest, [8:28] is a battleground [8:29] considering how close it was in 2024. [8:32] So, like, there's a lot of things [8:33] that are happening. [8:34] I am curious to see [8:36] how this changes [8:37] how candidates will operate. [8:39] Because they used to be able to be like, [8:41] okay, I'll focus on [8:42] Iowa, New Hampshire. [8:43] Okay, white voters. [8:44] I'll do that, [8:44] and then that will be quick. [8:46] And then I'll do [8:47] Nevada, Latino voters, [8:48] and then I'll go to black voters. [8:50] And so now you switch it. [8:52] You have to think about [8:53] black voters, Latino voters, [8:55] and then getting to white voters. [8:56] And what does that argument look like? [8:58] And frankly, I think [8:59] what they are going to find [9:01] is there's a lot of, [9:03] um, cross-pollination [9:05] is not the right word, [9:06] but that's the only word [9:06] coming to mind. [9:07] No, that's a terrible word. [9:08] There's a lot of connection. [9:09] Overlap. [9:09] There's overlap. [9:10] Thank you. [9:11] There's a lot of overlap [9:12] between all of those voters, [9:14] especially right now, right? [9:16] There's the economic issues. [9:18] There are issues of safety. [9:19] So I think it is going to be easier [9:21] than some people think [9:22] to go after all of these voters [9:24] in different ways. [9:24] But they're going to have [9:25] six weeks where it's going to be like, [9:27] bam, bam, bam. [9:28] And I'm kind of excited. [9:29] As a political reporter, [9:30] it's kind of exciting. [9:31] It's very exciting. [9:32] I think that this, [9:33] this particular calendar, [9:35] to me, elevates, um, [9:37] the South. [9:38] Yeah. [9:39] Also gives still heft and weight [9:42] to, um, the Midwest [9:44] and the diversity of the coalitions [9:46] that exist within the Midwest. [9:48] And maybe, Simone, [9:49] it will make the party [9:50] take seriously the South [9:52] in a different way. [9:52] Like, Georgia is the best example [9:55] of what it looks like [9:55] when you invest heavily [9:57] into a state [9:57] that you haven't won in a long time. [9:59] So people, I understand [10:00] when people are like, [10:01] oh, South Carolina will never. [10:02] It's like, yeah, [10:03] with that damn attitude. [10:04] You know what I mean? [10:05] If you run around [10:06] saying something's never going to happen, [10:08] it is actually never going to happen. [10:10] And I think that, [10:11] I am, I am interested to see [10:12] what it looks like [10:13] if the DNC, [10:14] Democratic groups across the country, [10:16] because there's some [10:16] popping up all the time, [10:17] Democratic groups in South Carolina, [10:18] what the investment looks like [10:20] when the South [10:21] is actually much more early on. [10:23] How much are they actually [10:24] going to put people on the ground? [10:25] Yes? [10:26] Think about it. [10:26] Like, when you are first, [10:28] I think that it is, [10:29] it is, it is no small thing [10:30] that South Carolina is first. [10:31] I don't understand [10:32] how people are like, [10:32] oh, diluting the power of Black voters. [10:34] Now, people have to turn [10:35] all their attention first [10:37] to South Carolina. [10:37] I remember on the campaign trail [10:39] in 2020, [10:40] and in, [10:41] when I was on the campaign trail [10:42] in 2015, 2016, [10:43] there is always like a fight [10:46] amongst the advisors [10:47] about where do you go. [10:49] And there are many times [10:50] in 2020 where I would, [10:52] early 2019, [10:53] where we would be on emails [10:54] or I would be on meetings [10:55] with the other senior advisors [10:56] or even our candidate, [10:58] former Vice President Joe Biden [10:59] at the time, [11:00] saying like, [11:01] okay, [11:02] we need to go to South Carolina. [11:04] We need to add South Carolina. [11:05] Like, there's always a fight [11:06] because it was fourth. [11:08] It's like, okay, [11:08] we got a little bit more time there, [11:10] but you still have to do work. [11:11] Now, people cannot push [11:13] the work that Black voters off. [11:16] You have to prioritize them [11:17] in the same way [11:18] that you would prioritize others. [11:19] So I think it's interesting. [11:20] Now, I will just say this. [11:22] The DNC could reject [11:23] this situation [11:24] at their meeting in August. [11:27] Okay? [11:27] I don't think it's that likely. [11:29] I don't think so either, [11:31] but I do just want to [11:31] put it on the table. [11:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [11:33] The DNC could reject this [11:34] at their meeting in August. [11:35] I don't think it's likely [11:36] because a lot of work [11:38] went into this [11:38] from the Rules and Bylaws Committee [11:39] and they did get a lot of buy-in [11:40] from a lot of people. [11:42] That's why I don't think [11:42] it's likely. [11:43] Why do you not think it's likely? [11:44] Same reason. [11:45] And also, like, [11:46] at this point, [11:47] and we're going to get to this [11:48] right now, as a matter of fact, [11:49] the DNC, [11:50] I think the DNC members [11:51] are exhausted by bad news [11:53] about the organization [11:55] being out in the world. [11:56] So I think there's also, [11:57] like, a little bit of, like, [11:58] child, let's just say yes [12:00] and not fight anymore. [12:02] With that said... [12:03] They need to, [12:04] and lastly, can I say, [12:04] they have to lock the calendar, [12:06] though, because right now, [12:07] there's all these people [12:07] arguing, oh, [12:09] South Carolina going first [12:10] benefits people like [12:10] Kamala Harris or Gavin Newsom [12:12] or somebody, [12:13] and da-da-da-da-da. [12:14] Like, okay. [12:15] We don't, first of all, [12:16] we don't know that, [12:17] but secondly, [12:17] it's better to make [12:18] the decision now [12:19] than in January of 2027 [12:22] when people have already [12:24] declared that it really [12:25] does look exactly... [12:26] There's always a state [12:27] that's going to benefit [12:27] somebody, right? [12:29] Like, in 2020, [12:30] Iowa and New Hampshire [12:31] benefited Bernie and Pete, [12:34] right? [12:35] So, like, [12:35] that's what we saw. [12:36] I've seen as well [12:37] Bernie Sanders won Iowa [12:38] in the primary. [12:39] I was there. [12:40] So, like, [12:41] so the idea that, [12:43] oh, no, [12:44] Kamala or Gavin [12:45] or someone who [12:46] Black people like [12:47] is going to have [12:47] some kind of, yeah, [12:48] that, yeah, [12:49] somebody's always [12:50] going to benefit from this. [12:51] So, but back to the DNC. [12:53] Yes. [12:55] So, there was this [12:55] report on Sunday, [12:58] um, [12:59] a couple of different reports. [13:00] It was like, [13:00] bam, bam, bam. [13:01] Which report are you [13:01] talking about? [13:02] The New York Times? [13:02] All of them, child. [13:03] So, it was the [13:04] New York Times notice [13:05] and the Bulwark. [13:06] My girl, Lauren Egan, [13:07] um, over at the Bulwark. [13:09] These are the kinds of things [13:10] that were in there. [13:11] One, there was an HR complaint [13:12] filed against Ken Martin [13:14] for throwing, [13:15] was the word used [13:16] in the article, [13:17] a phone during a heated [13:18] conversation with the staff [13:19] for now. [13:20] Was it a toss? [13:21] Was it a throw? [13:22] Like, Naomi Campbell? [13:23] Like, you know, [13:24] what was, I don't, [13:25] we don't know. [13:26] But that was what it was said. [13:27] Um, it also said [13:29] that the DNC [13:29] used its building in D.C. [13:31] as collateral [13:32] against a $15 million loan [13:33] in 2025, [13:34] which, according to folks [13:36] I've talked to [13:37] and they said this [13:37] in all of these stories [13:38] as well, [13:39] that has happened before. [13:40] That is not- [13:41] Yes, in 2018 [13:42] and 2019 [13:43] and in 2014. [13:45] So, I don't know [13:47] why that was the headline [13:48] in notice, [13:48] to be honest. [13:48] It's part of in there. [13:49] And then, [13:50] that they are in debt [13:52] by $2 million, [13:53] I think was the number. [13:54] And now, [13:55] there's a lot there. [13:56] And we've, I think, [13:57] talked about this. [13:57] Sometimes I can't tell [13:58] if we talked about it [13:59] in our personal lives [14:00] on the podcast. [14:01] So, we're just gonna do it. [14:03] When I talk to folks [14:05] like Ken Martin [14:06] and folks that are allies of his, [14:08] they say the reason we broke [14:09] is because we're spending [14:10] the money [14:11] and helping people [14:12] and that you can see that [14:13] in the ways [14:15] in which Democrats [14:16] have been doing well [14:17] all over the country. [14:18] What I think [14:19] is really fascinating, [14:20] one is that these all [14:21] came out at the same time, [14:23] right? [14:23] Which tells me [14:24] that somebody [14:25] in the DNC, [14:26] somebodies, [14:27] are not happy [14:28] with Ken Martin [14:29] for whatever reason. [14:30] And I think [14:32] that when you see [14:34] this kind of coordinated effort, [14:35] there's a lack of trust [14:36] in the leader, right? [14:37] Like, when people start talking, [14:39] people that don't talk, [14:40] that means that the team [14:40] is running well, right? [14:42] Like, when there's not leaks, [14:43] that means that things [14:43] are happening. [14:44] You don't need to remind me. [14:45] Yeah. [14:47] You know I know. [14:48] Uh-huh, uh-huh. [14:50] Hey, Simone, [14:50] can I get comment? [14:52] Um... [14:52] I am not gonna help you [14:55] tear down a Black woman [14:56] today, Eugene. [14:57] She did say that. [14:58] No! [14:58] And I was like... [15:00] But call me back. [15:01] And once you're ready to write, [15:02] I will give you a comment. [15:04] And she did. [15:06] That used to be our relationship, [15:07] y'all. [15:07] It's still kind of our relationship. [15:08] She still yells at me. [15:09] Um... [15:10] But the... [15:11] But I think it's interesting [15:13] that there's not a love [15:15] for him within the DNC. [15:16] And when he won, [15:18] um, as chair, [15:20] part of the reason why [15:21] was because he had relationships [15:22] with the state party chairs. [15:24] He did not have [15:26] the relationships [15:27] that Ben Wickler, for example, [15:29] had with, like, [15:29] the national folks. [15:30] So I do think, like, [15:32] from jump, [15:32] he was always gonna have this issue. [15:33] I did a... [15:34] Um, when I was over at Politico, [15:36] we did, like, a forum. [15:38] And so, [15:39] what I took from that [15:40] when I was, like, [15:40] on the ground [15:41] talking to DNC members [15:42] and folks [15:42] is that there was [15:43] a lot of love [15:44] for Ben Wickler [15:45] kind of from [15:46] more online-y [15:48] national Democrats, [15:50] people who are [15:50] probably more likely [15:51] to call [15:52] and have the phone numbers [15:53] of the folks [15:53] that work at the New York Times [15:54] the bulwark [15:55] and notice, right? [15:56] And that the state party chairs [15:57] were obsessed with Ken Martin. [15:59] That is what I think is... [16:00] A lot of that [16:01] is playing out right now, [16:02] which is, [16:03] when you do talk [16:03] to state party chairs, [16:05] many of them [16:05] are pleased with him. [16:07] They get money. [16:07] I think there was [16:08] some reporting [16:08] from Greg Blustein, [16:10] one of the contributors [16:11] at MS, [16:12] but at the AJC. [16:13] You have it right now? [16:14] Yes, I have it right now. [16:15] I went and pulled it up. [16:16] Yeah, yeah. [16:17] This is what Greg Blustein wrote. [16:18] The Democratic Party of Georgia [16:19] just announced [16:20] it will have [16:20] 30 field offices [16:21] opened by early August [16:23] along with 60 full-time [16:25] field organizers [16:25] and more than 100 [16:27] coordinated campaign staffers. [16:28] The biggest operation [16:29] the party has ever had [16:31] at this stage. [16:31] Now, to be very clear, [16:32] you do not get that [16:34] without the support [16:35] of the National Party. [16:36] The DNC [16:37] has been transferring money [16:38] regularly [16:39] to the states. [16:41] Now, to be very clear, [16:42] this is not like [16:42] a Ken Martin special [16:45] because Jamie Harrison, [16:48] when he was the DNC chair, [16:49] he transferred [16:50] a lot of money [16:51] to state parties, [16:52] but one of the negotiations [16:54] that Jane Klebb, [16:57] who is the chair [16:58] of the Association [16:59] of State Democratic Party Chairs [17:01] and also a vice chair [17:02] of the Democratic National Committee, [17:04] also the chair [17:04] of the Nebraska Democratic Party, [17:06] go Big Red. [17:08] Nebraska, obviously, [17:10] obviously elevates leaders, [17:11] okay, [17:11] if I didn't say so myself. [17:12] Oh, my gosh. [17:14] If South Carolina [17:15] is the president, [17:16] Nebraska elevates leaders. [17:17] Clock in, okay? [17:19] You have a point. [17:20] Well, yes, yes. [17:22] Yes, I do have a point. [17:23] My point is [17:24] is that Ken Martin [17:25] has sent even more money [17:27] to them regularly. [17:29] That was one of the things [17:30] that they negotiated [17:30] and they got. [17:31] And so, [17:32] money to the state parties [17:33] matters, [17:34] but they got it early, [17:35] which is why the DNC [17:36] is in debt now. [17:38] Let's be honest, [17:38] they also had to pay off [17:40] some money [17:40] from the Harris campaign [17:43] because the Harris campaign [17:45] was in debt. [17:46] Vice President Harris [17:47] when her campaign ended, [17:48] she too went and did [17:49] some fundraising [17:50] to help the DNC [17:51] offset those funds. [17:53] But they had, [17:54] they had a lot of money [17:55] to pay out. [17:55] Now, they have raised, [17:56] now, Kim Martin did this, [17:58] he has a sub stack, [17:59] basically. [18:00] And he basically said [18:01] that the DNC, [18:02] on July 20th, [18:03] the current DNC [18:04] has raised the most money [18:05] of any DNC [18:06] without the White House [18:06] in the 198-year history [18:08] of the Democratic Party. [18:09] I encourage people [18:10] to go look at the sub stack. [18:11] He explains in here [18:12] why they don't have any, [18:13] why they don't have [18:14] as much money in the bank [18:15] because they didn't, [18:16] they're not keeping it [18:17] till the very end. [18:18] They're spending it [18:18] early and often. [18:19] They flipped state [18:20] legislative seats. [18:21] They were held by Republicans [18:22] in Mississippi. [18:23] Overperforming all over [18:24] the country. [18:25] Yes, that matters. [18:25] So my question to you is, [18:28] two million dollars to us [18:29] is a lot of money. [18:31] Two million dollars [18:32] when you're talking [18:32] about the amount of money [18:33] that is flowing through politics [18:34] is like peanuts. [18:36] I feel like you should, [18:37] you should be able [18:37] to sit down [18:38] as the chair [18:39] of the Democratic National Committee [18:40] and call a few people [18:43] and get the two million dollars. [18:44] Like I just feel like [18:45] what I've seen [18:46] over and over again [18:47] from people, [18:48] like Rufus Gifford [18:49] who worked on [18:51] the Harris campaign [18:52] and some other folks, [18:53] Shannon Watts, [18:54] you know, [18:54] they have said on Twitter, [18:57] the X, [18:57] whatever the hell threads, [18:59] that they have not gotten [19:01] calls from him [19:02] asking for money [19:03] or asking them [19:04] to bundle them money. [19:05] And I do wonder, [19:06] like as someone [19:07] who's been in the DNC, [19:08] when you hear something [19:09] like that, [19:10] there's a disconnect [19:11] from how people [19:13] normally do this, [19:14] right? [19:15] Fundraise [19:16] and are able to fundraise [19:17] and what Ken Martin [19:18] seems to be doing [19:20] based on what [19:21] these folks are saying. [19:21] Okay, so first of all, [19:23] I think that [19:23] what Ken wrote [19:24] in his Substack [19:25] on the 20th of July [19:26] is true. [19:27] They have raised [19:28] a substantial amount [19:29] of money. [19:29] A lot of that money [19:30] has been from [19:31] grassroots donors, [19:32] but they've also had [19:33] some high dollar donors. [19:35] I love Shannon Watts. [19:37] I don't know [19:38] why someone [19:39] should be calling her [19:39] to get money [19:40] for the Democratic [19:42] National Committee. [19:43] Y'all know me, [19:43] I keep it real. [19:44] I just, [19:45] I don't understand. [19:46] Rufus, [19:47] Rufus is a known fundraiser. [19:49] He was chair [19:49] of Obama's Finance Committee, [19:51] for example, as well. [19:52] Like, so if Rufus [19:53] has not got a call [19:54] from Ken, [19:55] that's a question [19:56] for Ken Martin. [19:56] Why have you not [19:57] engaged Rufus? [19:58] My question, [19:59] my follow-up though [19:59] would be, [20:00] well, Rufus, [20:00] have you gotten a call [20:00] from anybody? [20:02] And are we holding out [20:02] for our call [20:03] from the chair? [20:04] I don't know. [20:05] I haven't asked him. [20:06] I'm going to ask. [20:06] Maybe I'm going to text [20:08] right now. [20:09] Let me text him [20:10] right now. [20:10] Where's my phone at? [20:12] Yeah. [20:13] Because I do think [20:14] that aspect of it [20:16] is interesting. [20:17] And I can't figure out [20:19] why people, [20:20] why folks are so upset [20:21] with Ken Martin internally. [20:22] It sounds like [20:23] his leadership style [20:24] is a little different [20:25] than what they're used to, [20:26] maybe. [20:27] He always does say that, [20:28] you know, [20:28] don't be tricked [20:29] by the Minnesota nice. [20:30] He has said that [20:30] on all of our shows before [20:31] when he gets into the cussing. [20:33] So I do, [20:34] you know, [20:35] it is interesting [20:35] that there are, [20:36] people have lots of questions [20:37] about how [20:38] he engages with them. [20:39] But let me just say this. [20:40] Look, [20:40] does everybody like Ken Martin? [20:42] I think the reality is, [20:44] no. [20:45] But the question [20:46] I think folks have to ask [20:47] is Ken being effective [20:49] in what he is supposed [20:50] to be doing. [20:51] And I think [20:51] if you want to grade him, [20:53] some of it he's being effective on [20:55] and some of it he is not. [20:56] But this is key [20:57] to this, right, Simone? [20:59] It's like, [20:59] what is the job? [21:01] And the job, [21:02] I think, [21:03] what I understand it to be, [21:05] is largely to fundraise [21:07] and organize for, [21:08] in this instance, [21:09] 2020. [21:09] Oh, hold on. [21:10] Rufus is calling me. [21:11] Pause. [21:12] Rufus is calling me. [21:13] What? [21:13] What time Rufus, [21:14] he on the podcast right now? [21:15] Rufus, [21:15] we are recording, [21:17] me and Eugene [21:17] are recording our podcast [21:18] and I was like, [21:20] you know, [21:20] Rufus is substack. [21:21] Wait, hold on. [21:22] I'm going to put you [21:22] on speaker real quick. [21:23] It's just me and Eugene, [21:23] but we are recording. [21:24] Rufus know what he's talking about. [21:25] I said, [21:26] now, [21:26] if Rufus has not heard [21:28] from Ken, [21:29] I bet it's concerning. [21:30] I said, [21:30] my follow-up question though [21:31] would be, [21:32] did Rufus hear from anyone [21:33] or did he just not hear [21:34] from Ken or didn't hear [21:35] from anybody? [21:36] And Eugene was like, [21:36] well, ask him. [21:37] So, [21:37] did you hear from anybody? [21:40] Wait, [21:40] are we recording right now? [21:41] Yes, [21:42] we are recording. [21:42] Can y'all hear Rufus? [21:44] We just need to know. [21:47] I look, [21:47] I love, [21:48] I love my friends [21:49] in the DNC [21:49] and it's not that [21:50] I haven't been in touch [21:51] with my friends [21:51] who've been working [21:52] in the DNC [21:53] for a very, [21:54] very long time. [21:54] And I said, [21:55] and I was invited [21:56] to events [21:57] and all the rest. [21:58] But did they ask you [21:58] to bundle? [21:59] Like, [21:59] because I think you make [22:02] look, [22:03] there's money to be got [22:04] and some of us know [22:05] how to get that cash. [22:06] And one thing I can tell y'all [22:07] now, Eugene, [22:07] one thing I can say [22:08] about Rufus, [22:09] he can, [22:09] he can raise money [22:10] out of paper sack. [22:11] He knows how to get some money. [22:12] Yes. [22:12] And not just any kind of cash. [22:14] Rufus can get you [22:14] millions of dollars. [22:16] Okay? [22:17] Right, right, right. [22:18] This is what I'll say. [22:19] This is what I'll say [22:20] is the answer [22:20] to that question, Simone. [22:21] I, [22:21] I hosted the DSCC [22:23] last weekend. [22:24] I'm co-hosting the D-Trip [22:25] this weekend. [22:26] I'm hosting Tallarico [22:27] at my house on Sunday. [22:29] Later this month, [22:30] I'm hosting Sherry Brown [22:31] and I'm hosting [22:32] John Ossoff, [22:33] co-hosting. [22:34] I think I just committed [22:35] to do Josh Turek [22:36] in September. [22:37] So there's no shortage [22:38] of ass going out [22:39] to me to help fundraise [22:40] and, [22:40] and that's, [22:42] that's what I focus, [22:44] that's what I'm focusing on. [22:45] I call that a mic drop, [22:46] Eugene. [22:47] Okay, [22:47] because what he did [22:48] not say is the DMC. [22:49] I just want to be clear, [22:50] Rufus has made it very clear. [22:52] I love Rufus Gifford. [22:53] Rufus, we love you. [22:54] Oh, [22:54] well, that's very sweet. [22:55] It's, [22:55] the love is, [22:56] the love is mutual, [22:57] but I love my country more [22:58] and the stakes are existential. [23:00] We're going to do absolutely [23:01] everything we can [23:02] to flood the coffers [23:04] of these candidates, [23:05] both the DS, [23:06] the D-Trip, [23:07] these candidates [23:07] as much as we possibly can [23:09] between now and November [23:10] and that's what I'm focused on. [23:12] We love Rufus Gifford. [23:12] Does he think Kim Marshall [23:13] should stick around? [23:13] Eugene got all these questions [23:14] for you. [23:15] Rufus, [23:15] if we want to have more questions [23:17] for Rufus, [23:17] we need to book him. [23:19] So we will do that. [23:20] Rufus, [23:20] thank you very much. [23:22] We appreciate you. [23:23] I will talk to you later, [23:24] my friend. [23:24] Very spontaneous [23:25] and unexpected [23:26] and I love you both [23:27] very, very much as well. [23:29] Thank you for joining [23:30] our group chat. [23:31] Yeah. [23:32] Okay. [23:32] Bye. [23:34] Insane. [23:35] Okay, but also... [23:36] This woman calls people. [23:37] She has the spirit [23:38] of a reporter, [23:38] though she's not one. [23:40] Thank you. [23:41] Thank you for seeing me. [23:43] Yes, [23:43] but what I heard from that, [23:45] he mentioned a lot of people [23:46] he did not mention [23:46] was the DNC. [23:47] Yeah. [23:48] That's, [23:49] he said, [23:50] he mentioned everybody, [23:51] but... [23:51] Again, [23:51] I think that those are [23:52] follow-up questions [23:52] for the DNC. [23:54] Just so people [23:54] have a little backstory, [23:55] Rufus, [23:56] who, [23:56] you know, [23:56] he is a veteran diplomat. [23:58] He's a political strategist. [24:00] He's a longtime leader [24:01] in democratic politics. [24:02] Fundraiser. [24:03] Yes, [24:03] a fundraiser. [24:04] He played [24:04] very senior roles [24:06] in presidential campaigns. [24:07] He was the finance director [24:08] in 2012 [24:09] for Obama's [24:10] re-election campaign. [24:11] He was the deputy [24:12] campaign manager [24:13] for Joe Biden's [24:14] 2020 campaign. [24:15] He ended up [24:15] running finance in 2020 [24:17] and was the chair [24:18] for re-election. [24:19] And then, [24:19] he raised the monies [24:21] for Kamala Harris [24:22] when she took over. [24:22] So, [24:23] he does know [24:24] what he is talking about. [24:25] Did I tell you about [24:25] when the people [24:26] was calling me [24:26] trying to get rid [24:27] of Ken Martin? [24:29] Why would they call you? [24:30] Child. [24:31] Okay. [24:32] Why would they call you? [24:33] I was like, [24:34] I have a job. [24:36] So, like, [24:36] a month... [24:36] To get you [24:37] to be the chair [24:38] of the DNC? [24:39] Baby, [24:39] I can't believe [24:40] I didn't tell you this. [24:41] Like, [24:41] a month and a half ago, [24:42] right before the autopsy [24:44] came out, [24:44] it ended up coming out. [24:45] But after that interview [24:47] that he did [24:47] with Pod Save America, [24:48] we'll put the clip in [24:49] in case people missed it. [24:50] The fundraising [24:51] isn't going well either. [24:52] So, I feel like that's... [24:53] That is just [24:54] completely inaccurate, [24:56] John. [24:56] You had a great first year [24:59] in 2025. [25:00] And we've had [25:01] a great first quarter. [25:02] $32 million [25:03] we raised [25:03] in the first quarter. [25:04] We raised $4 million [25:05] in March [25:06] than Tom Perez [25:06] did in 2018. [25:08] That's excluding debt, [25:09] though. [25:10] That's excluding debt. [25:10] 50% more cash [25:11] on hand [25:12] than Tom Perez [25:13] did ahead of me. [25:14] But you're excluding debt. [25:15] You don't have 50% [25:15] more cash on hand [25:16] if you include your debt. [25:18] John, we do. [25:19] That's not true. [25:19] At the end of the day, [25:20] we can pay that debt off [25:21] whenever the hell we want. [25:22] After that, [25:23] I got a lot of calls [25:24] from some of these [25:26] donor types. [25:28] And I mean, [25:28] like, [25:28] these are people with money. [25:29] These are people [25:29] that represent people [25:30] with money. [25:31] People that I've just known [25:32] throughout my little career. [25:33] And someone [25:34] that I'm really good [25:35] friends with, [25:35] they sent this person [25:36] to call me. [25:37] And they were like, [25:38] oh, the donors want to, [25:40] like, we need [25:40] to get rid of Ken. [25:41] And I was just like, [25:42] well, who is the we, [25:43] first of all? [25:44] And why are you calling me? [25:45] And my second question [25:46] was, [25:47] what do you think [25:48] I can do for you? [25:49] Right, because I have a donor. [25:50] And they're like, [25:50] well, we have a list [25:51] of names. [25:52] And I said, [25:53] well, strike my name [25:54] off the list [25:54] for two reasons. [25:55] One, [25:57] I said, [25:58] one, [25:59] I have a job [26:00] that I love. [26:00] I said, [26:01] two, [26:02] y'all cannot pay me enough [26:03] because I have a job [26:04] that I love. [26:05] I said, [26:06] but also, [26:07] a bunch of donors [26:08] ain't about to get rid [26:09] of Ken Martin [26:09] at the DNC. [26:10] And I told this person, [26:12] I said, [26:12] did y'all not learn [26:13] y'all lesson [26:13] when y'all stabbed [26:14] Joe Biden [26:14] from the front [26:15] on national television [26:16] for two weeks [26:17] thinking that you [26:18] could dictate the process [26:19] when you got him out [26:20] only to turn around [26:21] and be, [26:22] as some people said, [26:23] I would not say this, [26:24] but stuck with Kamala Harris [26:26] because they didn't [26:26] know the process? [26:28] Okay, [26:28] you got to know [26:29] the process. [26:30] And the process [26:30] inside the Democratic [26:32] National Committee [26:33] is the DNC members [26:35] can call at a meeting, [26:37] can do a majority vote, [26:38] and they can remove [26:39] the chair. [26:39] And then, [26:41] a vice chair [26:41] that has been designated [26:42] within the DNC [26:43] will take over, [26:44] and then, [26:45] there will be another election [26:46] of DNC members [26:47] and they will decide [26:48] who the chair is. [26:49] And I was just like, [26:49] y'all, [26:50] if y'all feel like [26:51] y'all want to go [26:51] through this exercise [26:52] to make y'all feel good, [26:53] have at it. [26:54] But this is not [26:55] going anywhere. [26:56] But also, [26:57] if you're going to do a coup, [26:58] you got to know the rules. [26:59] They're not doing, [27:00] what kind of coup is this? [27:01] You know, [27:01] there's some bad coups [27:02] around here nowadays, [27:03] terrible coups. [27:04] Baby, terrible coup makers. [27:07] Terrible, [27:07] terribly planned coups. [27:08] They not ready. [27:09] Because why the hell [27:10] are they calling you [27:11] a non-DNC member? [27:13] I used to be a DNC member, [27:14] but exactly. [27:14] Used to be. [27:15] And the people that call me [27:16] are not even DNC members [27:17] themselves. [27:18] I'm like, [27:18] well, [27:18] have y'all spoke to any members? [27:20] And the conversation [27:21] ended with this. [27:22] Like, [27:22] we ended on the note. [27:22] I'm like, [27:23] well, [27:23] what are the grievances [27:24] y'all have? [27:24] Y'all mad at the [27:25] Pod Save America interview? [27:26] I said, [27:27] honestly, [27:27] the people in the streets [27:28] don't give a ding-dong dip [27:30] about the autopsy. [27:31] Honestly, [27:31] they don't care. [27:31] I said, [27:32] but that is an internal matter [27:32] that I do think [27:33] we need to address [27:34] as, like, Democrats. [27:36] And they were like, [27:36] well, [27:36] he's not good on TV. [27:37] He's not a good attack dog. [27:38] I said, [27:39] then the answer is [27:40] not remove Ken Martin. [27:41] I said, [27:41] everybody is not a TV person. [27:44] Maybe they should hire [27:44] somebody who is [27:45] and have them run, [27:48] like, [27:48] their external operation. [27:50] Tim Hogan, [27:51] who is the comms director, [27:52] is a great comms person. [27:54] Like, [27:54] he's a great strategist. [27:55] Like, [27:56] get a senior advisor [27:57] or somebody else [27:58] to work with Tim [27:58] that, [27:59] like, [27:59] it's only their job [28:00] to go on TV all day. [28:02] That's what I would do [28:03] if I was one of the people [28:04] that didn't like [28:05] what I was seeing [28:05] with the lack of an attack dog. [28:06] But people just are, [28:07] I think that they're just jumping [28:08] too far over the bridge [28:11] because, [28:11] as Rufus said, [28:12] like, [28:12] this is an existential crisis. [28:14] Like, [28:14] they gotta get it right [28:15] and the stakes are very high. [28:17] Ken is not great [28:18] on the PR of it all. [28:19] He is not good [28:20] on the comms of it all. [28:22] These stories [28:22] are absolutely terrible. [28:23] But if you ask me, [28:24] is he doing his job? [28:26] I think he is doing [28:27] a little over half the job. [28:30] And, [28:31] you know, [28:32] luckily, [28:33] I think he is doing [28:34] a little over half the job well. [28:36] I guess I'm giving him, [28:38] like, [28:38] a C plus [28:39] because this piece [28:41] about, like, [28:41] the narrative [28:42] around the fundraising [28:43] and whatnot, [28:44] it is problematic. [28:45] And so, [28:45] I can't give a B for that. [28:47] But, like, [28:48] I think the narrative [28:48] can easily be addressed [28:49] because what he wrote [28:50] in the Substack is true. [28:51] They have raised [28:52] record amount of money. [28:53] They have transferred money [28:54] to the states. [28:55] And it's because [28:55] of that building up [28:57] of the state parties [28:58] that there is [28:59] an infrastructure there [29:00] where we are now [29:01] talking about Democrats [29:01] potentially taking back [29:02] the United States Senate. [29:03] A year ago, [29:04] I was not of that belief. [29:06] So, [29:07] I think they got to fix [29:08] these other pieces. [29:09] But in my estimation, [29:10] it is the job [29:11] of the DNC [29:12] and the DNC chair [29:13] to raise money [29:14] so that they are [29:14] in a good position [29:15] to execute [29:16] a primary process [29:17] for the presidential election [29:20] and then put the nominee [29:21] in the best possible place [29:22] so that they can win. [29:23] That is the goal. [29:24] And what they're not doing [29:25] is raising money. [29:26] They are raising money. [29:28] They are not. [29:28] They are spending it. [29:29] They are, but they're keeping it. [29:29] So what, okay, [29:30] so how are they going [29:31] to get the money [29:32] for the gal or guy [29:34] who's going to be [29:35] the nominee [29:36] to make sure [29:37] that they do it? [29:37] How are they going [29:38] to make sure [29:38] that the process works well? [29:40] They got negative [29:41] $2 million. [29:42] There is something [29:43] that happened recently. [29:44] The Supreme Court, [29:45] there were a lot of cases [29:46] this last session. [29:47] One of the cases [29:49] was about, [29:50] it was basically [29:51] the RNC versus the DNC [29:52] and it was about [29:54] like how the party committees [29:56] are able to like [29:58] spend and use the money. [29:59] Yeah. [29:59] And the DNC was against it. [30:01] The RNC bought the, [30:02] like was the, [30:03] was for it [30:04] and the Supreme Court decision [30:06] was actually [30:06] in the RNC's favor. [30:08] I, [30:08] this may be unpopular. [30:09] I know that the DNC [30:11] argued against it. [30:12] Mark Elias [30:12] is a very good lawyer. [30:14] He represented [30:14] the Democratic National Committee. [30:15] I think they should [30:16] take advantage of the rules [30:17] now as they exist [30:19] because that is an option. [30:22] They should take advantage [30:22] of the rules. [30:23] But again, [30:23] people are giving [30:24] to the races [30:26] because the races [30:27] are what's going [30:27] to make a difference. [30:28] If you are a big donor, [30:30] they are going to give [30:32] to these specific candidates. [30:34] They're not going to give [30:35] to the party right now [30:36] and I understand that. [30:37] However, [30:39] these down ballot races, [30:41] the party committees, [30:42] making sure the infrastructure [30:44] is strong, [30:44] that does matter. [30:45] And all these people [30:46] on the internet [30:46] saying that it doesn't [30:47] are full of shit. [30:49] I'm trying to have [30:50] the cousins on the podcast. [30:51] But they are, [30:51] they are full of shit. [30:52] You do not get Georgia, [30:54] you do not get [30:54] Scott Cullum in Mississippi [30:56] to be a competitive [30:58] candidate for the United States Senate [31:00] without the Mississippi [31:01] Democratic Party [31:01] having the infrastructure. [31:02] Two state Senate seats [31:04] previously held [31:05] by Republicans [31:05] being flipped [31:06] and Democrats [31:06] breaking the supermajority [31:07] in the state Senate [31:08] in Mississippi. [31:09] That don't happen [31:10] when people just give it [31:11] to the DSCC [31:12] and give it to the candidates. [31:14] Like, [31:14] that means that someone [31:15] has to give to the entities [31:16] whose job it is [31:18] to shore up the party. [31:19] So there are many different [31:20] roles here to play. [31:21] So I'm not here to, [31:22] I know I sound like [31:23] at the end of the day, [31:23] like, [31:23] oh, [31:24] am I defending Ken Martin [31:25] or not? [31:25] I'm just keeping it real. [31:26] I don't think you're defending [31:28] Ken Martin at all. [31:29] Yeah. [31:29] Okay, [31:29] I just think there are parts [31:30] of the job that he's doing well [31:32] and then there's some parts [31:32] of the job that he's not doing well. [31:33] But do I think [31:34] he should be removed? [31:35] No, [31:36] because I don't think [31:36] the Democrats can take [31:37] another messy process. [31:38] It's just like, [31:39] it's just like, [31:40] y'all didn't handle it [31:41] right the first time. [31:42] Last week, [31:43] the New York Times [31:44] published an investigation [31:45] into wellness influencers [31:46] and it found that [31:47] hundreds of these influencers, [31:49] mostly pushing supplements, [31:51] that they weren't real, [31:52] that they were AI. [31:53] It was crazy, Eugene. [31:55] So how can we tell [31:57] if these ads are AI-generated? [31:59] From American flags [32:00] to idyllic suburban backgrounds, [32:02] the imagery is repeated [32:03] over and over [32:04] and is designed [32:05] to make the ads seem familiar. [32:08] Creators also go to great lengths [32:10] to make their avatars [32:11] look credible, [32:11] presenting them as doctors [32:13] or Eastern medical gurus [32:14] with fake diplomas [32:16] on the walls [32:16] of their fake offices. [32:18] Insane! [32:19] It's very insane [32:20] and this is the kind of thing [32:22] that, [32:22] as the Times points out [32:23] in the video [32:24] that they publish, [32:25] would be illegal [32:25] if they aired its ads [32:27] on television. [32:28] But online, [32:29] there actually isn't [32:30] any regulation [32:31] against an AI doctor [32:32] making false claims [32:34] the way that the Times says it [32:35] is basically like this. [32:36] There's no federal law [32:38] limiting the use [32:39] of synthetic people [32:40] in advertising. [32:42] This synthetic content [32:43] is crazy. [32:43] First of all, [32:44] synthetic people [32:44] is not a term. [32:46] People are people. [32:47] Yes, it is. [32:47] No, no. [32:49] You are only a person [32:50] if your heart is beating, [32:51] you're a moving, [32:52] breathing person. [32:53] Okay, synthetic people... [32:54] Synthetic content then. [32:55] Correct. [32:56] A synthetic actor? [32:58] Maybe. [32:58] Look, this is the thing [32:59] that I have continued to say. [33:02] The AI, [33:04] the fact that our leaders [33:06] do not understand AI, [33:07] they don't understand [33:08] social media, [33:09] they're still behind on that. [33:10] They have put us [33:11] in a terrible position [33:13] in this country [33:14] and frankly, [33:14] around the world [33:15] because at the end of the day, [33:16] there are no rules [33:18] at this point. [33:19] And, you know, [33:21] telling a fake doctor, [33:24] telling people [33:24] to take a supplement [33:25] is actually dangerous. [33:27] That's why there are rules [33:28] about ad making [33:29] when it comes to [33:31] telling people [33:31] they should take something [33:32] because they don't know [33:34] anything about it. [33:35] Now, these people [33:35] taking this advice [33:37] also don't know [33:38] that they're taking it [33:39] from AI. [33:40] And I think like, [33:40] this is what I'm talking about [33:42] when I'm like, [33:43] well, I'm scared of it. [33:43] I am thinking about [33:44] iRobot starring Will Smith [33:46] from the 2000s [33:47] where the robots [33:47] was killing people. [33:49] Okay? [33:49] Very scary. [33:50] Things are weird. [33:51] I think that the fact [33:52] that we're not [33:53] paying attention to this [33:54] and we're spending [33:55] so much time with AI, [33:57] it is sucking [33:58] the energy out of us. [34:00] It is sucking [34:01] the energy out of the earth. [34:03] It is fucking up the water. [34:05] It is making us dumber. [34:07] Like, I've been with people. [34:09] I ain't gonna say no names [34:09] for the people you hear. [34:10] Uh-oh. [34:11] Do I know some of these folks? [34:13] You're, you're, yes. [34:14] You're sitting there [34:14] having a normal conversation, [34:16] right? [34:16] You're not asking about [34:17] a deep thing from 2012. [34:19] You're asking them about their, [34:20] like, something they should know. [34:22] They go, oh, hold on. [34:22] Let me ask Claude. [34:24] Who the hell? [34:24] Why the hell are you asking Claude? [34:26] You were there. [34:27] Like, so that's like why, [34:29] it's like, [34:29] this is why it's so concerning to me. [34:30] It's like, why, [34:31] at the end of the day, [34:32] are we outsourcing thinking, right? [34:36] Like, I understand people [34:38] who say that, like, [34:39] there is, [34:40] there is a benefit in it. [34:41] And for busy people, [34:42] it's better [34:43] because there are things [34:44] that you don't need to be doing [34:45] that AI can do for you. [34:48] Sure, show me that list [34:49] and I absolutely will look at it. [34:50] But largely what I'm hearing from people [34:52] is that they're using AI [34:53] not to supplement their, [34:56] and not to enhance themselves, [34:58] but to replace [34:59] the kinds of things [35:01] that human beings should be doing. [35:02] And I think that is the problem. [35:03] Okay, but here, [35:04] okay, I don't, [35:06] I don't disagree [35:07] with what you have laid out here. [35:09] I am a ChatGPT and Claude user. [35:12] But you use it to enhance. [35:14] Yes, yes. [35:15] Because in the age of AI, [35:17] critical thinking [35:17] is actually the most important skill. [35:19] I said this in my, [35:20] because it's a speech [35:21] that I gave to Spelman. [35:22] Yes, yes. [35:23] The AI is wrong. [35:24] And so what is most important [35:26] in this, [35:27] in this day and age [35:28] is, I guess, [35:29] for lack of a better term, [35:30] your output is only going to be [35:31] as good as your input. [35:32] And so AI is not going [35:33] to replace the thinking. [35:34] The critical thinkers [35:35] are going to be [35:36] what is needed [35:37] for society right now. [35:38] But this is why I think [35:39] the New York Times piece [35:41] was interesting to me [35:43] because I think [35:44] a lot of time and energy [35:45] has been spent on [35:46] hypothetical deepfakes, right, [35:49] that could appear [35:49] right before an election [35:50] that are... [35:52] Like Joe Biden? [35:53] Yes, yes, yes. [35:53] In 2024? [35:55] Yes. [35:55] Yes. [35:56] But I actually think [35:57] the immediate issue is this, [35:59] is fake people [36:01] building real audiences, [36:02] fake accounts, [36:04] filling comment sections, [36:05] and then synthetic crowds [36:06] trying to shape [36:07] what other people believe. [36:10] Like, if you don't know... [36:13] I mean, I myself [36:14] got caught up on some AI [36:15] the other day. [36:16] You know, I'm a [36:16] quintessential consumer. [36:17] There is. [36:18] There's one guy, [36:19] I forget what his name is, [36:20] but he's like a fake congressman [36:22] that's on there. [36:23] It's also like that. [36:23] I don't know if he's AI, [36:24] but yes. [36:24] CNN got caught up on this. [36:25] They used him in a roundup [36:27] of what members of Congress [36:29] were saying about a topic [36:31] the other day, [36:31] and everybody on the internet [36:32] was like, [36:33] uh, this is a fake account. [36:34] This ain't real. [36:34] There was an ad the other day. [36:37] I think it was on, [36:38] I think I saw it on Instagram [36:39] that I saw it again on TikTok. [36:41] And it was, you know, [36:43] it was for like a, [36:44] it was like a big, [36:45] like, box, [36:47] but it was clear. [36:48] It had straps. [36:49] And the lady in the ad [36:50] got in it, [36:51] and the ad was showing [36:53] how you could put [36:53] all these things in it. [36:54] And I was like, [36:54] oh, I need to get that [36:55] for my deck [36:56] so I can put all the pillows [36:58] and stuff in there, [36:58] leave it on the deck, [36:59] and it can get rained on. [37:01] And I kept seeing it, [37:02] and I'm gonna tell y'all, [37:03] I almost went [37:04] to go find it [37:06] and click to buy it. [37:07] Why was the people [37:07] in the comments like, [37:08] you don't see this [37:09] is clearly AI? [37:10] And I was like, [37:11] is it AI? [37:11] Is it clearly? [37:12] So, like, [37:13] this is, um, [37:15] a deep fake [37:16] can try to fool us [37:17] about one event [37:18] or one person, [37:18] but like this fake crowd stuff, [37:20] this synthetic crowd situation, [37:21] these bots online, [37:23] like, [37:24] I think that is a real, [37:25] real danger here. [37:27] Uh, let's remember [37:29] in 2016 [37:29] when there were bots [37:31] from Russia [37:32] that were engaging [37:34] in stoking the fires [37:36] that already existed [37:37] within our country [37:38] online. [37:39] And these, [37:40] my understanding [37:41] is that the bots [37:41] were like, [37:42] you know, [37:42] actual people [37:43] who were Russian [37:44] who were doing it, [37:45] and then they created [37:46] these bot farms, [37:47] so then it was fake. [37:48] Think about all the damage [37:49] that did in 2016, [37:51] for those of you [37:51] that are worried [37:52] about Donald Trump [37:53] being president. [37:54] Think about the ways [37:54] in which that changed [37:55] the conversation [37:56] in this country. [37:57] Think about the ways [37:58] in which we, [38:00] as a country, [38:00] have gotten harsher [38:01] with each other, [38:02] meaner with each other, [38:03] and a lot of that, [38:05] I think, [38:06] comes from social media. [38:07] And you never know [38:09] who you're talking to. [38:09] The people that be writing us [38:10] talking about, [38:12] you raggedy bitch. [38:13] I don't know if that's [38:14] a real person. [38:15] You know, [38:15] you never know. [38:16] And so you have, [38:16] like, from that [38:17] to the actual real concerns [38:20] that we should have [38:21] about how it changes [38:22] the way we are thinking [38:24] about each other, [38:25] I think there's AI. [38:26] And I'm not just, [38:27] and I say that, [38:28] like, the robots [38:28] are gonna kill us. [38:29] I think the robots [38:30] are gonna force us [38:31] to kill each other. [38:31] Like, at the end of the day, [38:33] they're gonna, [38:33] we are gonna be the thing [38:34] that gets hacked. [38:35] We are gonna be the thing [38:36] that changes. [38:37] And the ways in which [38:38] we continue to engage [38:39] with each other [38:40] are gonna continue [38:40] to harshen. [38:42] I think the thing [38:43] about the AI content, [38:44] which is so scary, [38:46] but that people also [38:46] need to understand, [38:47] is that creating AI content [38:49] is cheap. [38:50] Like, there is an economic [38:51] piece behind all of this. [38:52] I did a little research, [38:54] and there are researchers [38:55] that are tracking [38:56] synthetic political accounts. [38:58] That's what they're calling [38:58] a synthetic content. [39:00] And they say the operators [39:01] appear to be chasing money [39:03] as opposed to carrying [39:04] a specific, you know, [39:05] many of them, [39:06] a specific ideological, [39:07] like, influence operation. [39:09] Because the AI content [39:10] is cheap, [39:11] and it could produce, [39:13] like, one of these, [39:14] one of the things [39:15] I was looking at [39:15] said that they could produce [39:16] roughly 1,200 videos a day, [39:19] while political accounts [39:21] can also be used [39:22] to sell, like, [39:23] the merchandise. [39:23] So there's an economic [39:24] piece to this. [39:25] It's actually really crazy. [39:28] And I think Nicki Minaj [39:29] is actually a very good [39:29] example of this. [39:31] How? [39:33] Okay, you might have [39:35] missed this. [39:36] But Nicki Minaj is, [39:38] well, not exclusively her, [39:39] but her online audience [39:40] is an example. [39:41] Like, the real, [39:42] like, are the Barb's real? [39:43] And I say that because [39:45] Politico reported [39:46] on an analysis [39:47] that actually classified [39:49] roughly, um, [39:50] I think it was like [39:51] one-third of the accounts [39:52] engaging with a group [39:54] of her political posts [39:55] as fake. [39:56] But the analysis, [39:57] it didn't accuse, like, [39:58] Nicki Minaj of buying [39:59] or directing the accounts, [40:00] No, it's not her. [40:01] It's just happening. [40:02] So the question is, [40:03] who is doing it? [40:04] And the fighting [40:04] weren't disputed, [40:05] but, like, you know? [40:07] But who does want [40:09] you, me, [40:11] the people online [40:12] to be fighting each other? [40:13] Right? [40:14] Like, who? [40:15] Elon Musk, [40:16] who owns X. [40:17] I'm accusing him. [40:17] I'm just saying he owns X. [40:19] He owns X. [40:20] And it's interesting [40:21] that on X, [40:22] constantly we're finding [40:23] that a lot of the things [40:25] people engaging in, [40:26] especially political content, [40:28] are bots, [40:29] are not real. [40:31] And, you know, [40:31] nobody, [40:32] but it's like seven people [40:33] work at X after he done [40:34] fired everybody [40:35] when he went in there. [40:37] And so, like, [40:37] the guardrails that were there, [40:40] which were already flimsy [40:41] to begin with, [40:42] do not exist. [40:43] And so we have no idea [40:45] who we're engaging with. [40:46] That's why when my mama [40:47] be seeing people talk [40:48] mess about me on the internet, [40:49] she be talking about it. [40:50] I go, mom, girl, [40:51] you're probably talking [40:51] to some robot. [40:52] Please, no reason [40:53] to engage in that [40:54] because you don't know [40:54] who's real and who's not. [40:56] I think this often gets framed [40:57] as a media literacy problem [40:58] for individuals. [40:59] But honestly, Eugene, [41:00] I just think that misses [41:01] what is really happening. [41:02] That's really what you just laid out [41:03] because ordinary people, [41:05] they cannot see [41:06] account creation data. [41:07] They can't see [41:08] this coordinated behavior. [41:10] Common administrators, [41:12] they can't see that [41:12] or who controls the network, [41:13] which is why, [41:14] to your point, [41:15] the regulation of this, [41:16] the elected officials, [41:17] knowing what questions to ask [41:19] and, you know, [41:20] really getting tough [41:21] with these platforms matters. [41:22] Media literacy matters, [41:23] but it is not a substitute. [41:24] And I think this dovetails [41:26] to the last piece [41:27] we wanted to talk about today, [41:29] like the political influencers. [41:30] This is why the conversation [41:33] about what's happening online [41:35] versus what is happening out there [41:37] in the real world, [41:38] like I think it does matter [41:39] because as we used to say [41:41] when I did campaigns, [41:42] you know, [41:42] Twitter is not real life. [41:43] Like you got to go out [41:44] and touch grass. [41:45] And that doesn't mean [41:46] that what happens on the internet [41:47] does not matter, [41:48] but it should not dictate [41:49] what campaigns, [41:51] candidates, [41:51] and individuals are doing, [41:53] which is why I found [41:54] the rise of like these political, [41:56] you know, [41:56] we, everybody calls them influencers, [41:58] but also, you know, [41:59] Carrie, my sister-in-law, [42:00] was educating me [42:01] and my mentee Natalia [42:02] the other day. [42:02] There's content creators, [42:03] then there's influencers. [42:04] And a lot of these people [42:05] are content. [42:05] What's the difference? [42:06] Well, I asked the same question, child. [42:08] Carrie said, [42:09] we are influencers. [42:10] And I was like, no, [42:11] we are hosts. [42:13] I'm a host. [42:14] And that's what I said. [42:15] I said, don't be saying [42:15] I'm an influencer. [42:16] She said, no, [42:17] you are a person of influence. [42:19] And so like people [42:20] are coming to you [42:21] because they believe [42:22] in what you're saying [42:23] and you like, [42:24] she's like, [42:25] you could put a lipstick [42:27] on the thing [42:27] and say, [42:28] I'm just saying [42:29] this thing works [42:29] or you tell them [42:30] something about politics [42:31] and you are influencing [42:32] what they believe. [42:33] They believe you. [42:34] She said, [42:34] the content creators [42:35] are people that are just, [42:37] you know, [42:37] they create content, [42:38] they have thoughts, [42:38] but they're not necessarily [42:39] people of influence. [42:40] So all content creators [42:41] are not influencers. [42:42] And so I think [42:43] that there are a lot [42:44] of political content creators [42:46] and political influencers [42:47] right now. [42:48] And the big question, [42:49] frankly, [42:49] is about where the money [42:51] coming from, [42:52] who's paying them [42:53] and how. [42:54] Now, let's get into that [42:55] because there are these [42:56] real life influencers, [42:57] real people, [42:58] not synthetic, [42:59] who one could argue [43:00] are also behaving deceptively. [43:02] Many people on the internet [43:03] have argued that. [43:04] Last weekend, [43:04] MSNOW's Brandi Zadrozny [43:06] published a story [43:07] about quote unquote [43:08] Michigan moms [43:09] posting on TikTok [43:11] saying they're worried [43:12] about their bills. [43:13] And because of that, [43:13] they're going to vote [43:14] for Haley Stevens [43:15] in the state's primary [43:16] next week, [43:17] but they're all [43:18] using the same [43:19] exact language. [43:20] Listen to this. [43:21] Make that make sense. [43:22] Like, make that make sense. [43:24] This makes sense. [43:25] Make it make sense, Michigan. [43:27] And before long, [43:28] the same account [43:29] started posting [43:30] a seeming solution [43:31] to their financial troubles. [43:33] Haley Stevens has my vote. [43:34] Which is why [43:35] Haley Stevens is going [43:36] to have my vote. [43:36] That's exactly why [43:37] Haley Stevens [43:38] has earned my spot [43:39] in this primary. [43:39] Now, according to Brandi, [43:42] these folks are not disclosing [43:44] that they are taking money [43:46] from PAC supporting Stevens. [43:47] They're not even disclosing [43:48] that their posts are ads. [43:51] So I think [43:52] this is why the AI [43:54] guardrails matter, [43:55] but they're also like [43:56] just in general, [43:58] the ways in which [43:59] the world around politics [44:01] has changed so much [44:02] and so quickly, frankly, [44:03] and our leaders have [44:05] no idea what the hell [44:06] is going on. [44:07] He's saying that [44:08] because Jim Clyburn [44:09] was on a podcast [44:11] I didn't say that about Jim Clyburn. [44:11] I said people. [44:12] And said he ain't [44:13] know nothing about [44:14] ChatGPT. [44:14] We can play the clip. [44:15] He said he learned [44:15] about ChatGPT last week. [44:16] Till last week. [44:17] I was like, sir. [44:18] Do you use AI? [44:19] Have you ever used an LLM? [44:20] No. [44:21] Somebody was telling me [44:22] I want to, [44:23] but I never have. [44:24] No ChatGPT, [44:26] no Claude for you? [44:27] Believe it or not, [44:28] I didn't know what that was [44:29] until about a week ago. [44:30] Which one? [44:32] ChatGPT [44:32] or whatever it is. [44:34] You didn't know [44:35] until a week ago. [44:36] Wow. [44:36] I'm jealous. [44:37] You've got yourself [44:38] in a bubble. [44:39] That may sound strange to you. [44:40] I don't know. [44:41] I didn't know [44:42] what that was. [44:43] It's not just, [44:44] you know, [44:44] Mr. Claiborne, [44:45] who is, [44:46] you know, [44:47] old, [44:48] but there are also [44:49] lots of members [44:49] of Congress. [44:50] When they bring [44:51] Zuckerberg [44:52] or any of them fools [44:53] in front of Congress, [44:54] they ask them [44:55] the dumbest questions. [44:57] There was a question [44:58] one time. [44:58] Someone said, [44:59] can you, [45:00] when I'm on Wi-Fi, [45:01] can you go into my phone? [45:02] Like, sir? [45:04] Mr. Chude, [45:05] does TikTok [45:05] access the home Wi-Fi network? [45:07] Only if the user [45:10] turns on the Wi-Fi. [45:12] I'm sorry, [45:12] I may not understand the question. [45:13] So if I have [45:14] TikTok app on my phone [45:16] and my phone [45:16] is on my home Wi-Fi network, [45:18] does TikTok [45:18] access that network? [45:21] It will have to [45:22] access the network [45:23] to get connections [45:24] to the Internet, [45:25] if that's the question. [45:26] Is it possible, then, [45:27] that it could access [45:28] other devices [45:29] on that home Wi-Fi network? [45:31] Congressman, [45:31] we do not do anything [45:33] that is beyond [45:33] any industry norms. [45:35] I believe the answer [45:36] to your question is no. [45:37] It could be technical. [45:38] Let me get back to you. [45:39] That's not what Wi-Fi is. [45:41] What do you mean? [45:42] We need better briefings. [45:43] What are y'all talking about? [45:44] Like, it's just terrible. [45:45] The staffing's terrible [45:46] and the members of Congress [45:48] don't know anything. [45:48] And so, like, [45:49] when you have folks like this [45:50] saying the same thing [45:51] over and over and over again, [45:53] again, the question is, [45:54] where's the money coming from? [45:55] And most importantly, [45:56] why don't they have to tell you [45:58] where the money's coming from? [46:00] And the Michigan, [46:01] we should underscore [46:02] that Michigan's primary [46:03] is this coming Tuesday, [46:04] August 4th, [46:05] and it matters because [46:07] Michigan is a seat [46:08] that Democrats currently hold [46:09] and, like, we'll talk about [46:10] we're getting to this [46:11] and, yes, [46:12] we're talking all about it [46:13] in next week's episode. [46:14] We're breaking down the map, okay? [46:16] So y'all need to come back. [46:17] After they win. [46:17] We got thoughts. [46:18] Yes, yes, yes. [46:19] So whoever wins in Michigan. [46:21] But I just think [46:22] that this is like, [46:24] it's not a side note [46:25] if people are, like, [46:27] if people are being paid or not [46:29] because that clip [46:30] from Brandy Zidrozny [46:31] very clearly to me [46:32] says that there was a script [46:33] that was passed out, okay? [46:35] And that people created [46:36] their content from the same script. [46:37] Why does that matter? [46:38] Because people are looking [46:39] to these content creators [46:41] or these influencers, frankly, [46:43] to say, like, [46:45] because they believe them. [46:46] They're in community [46:46] with these people. [46:47] And so if I'm in community with you [46:49] and I trust you [46:50] because we are in community, [46:52] I'm more susceptible [46:53] to an argument [46:53] that you are going to make. [46:55] After the 2020 election, [46:56] I went to go work [46:57] for Priorities USA. [46:58] It was a super PAC. [46:59] I've worked everywhere. [47:00] Me and Brian Fallon [47:02] with Guy Cesar, [47:03] we helped, like, [47:03] relaunch Priorities USA. [47:04] And one of the things [47:05] we focused on was digital. [47:07] And in the lead up [47:07] to that midterm election [47:09] that year, [47:10] pardon me, [47:11] not after 2020, [47:11] after 2016, [47:13] in the lead up [47:14] to that 2018 midterm election, [47:16] one of the things [47:16] that we focused on [47:18] was the digital, [47:19] like, economy [47:20] and these communities. [47:23] Now, we have rules [47:24] that we use. [47:26] We did not, you know, [47:27] exploit people [47:27] based on race, [47:28] religion or anything [47:29] like that, [47:30] but, like, literally, [47:31] we would create [47:32] these Facebook groups. [47:33] Like, I'm not giving [47:33] anything away. [47:34] Republicans have been doing this. [47:35] People are doing this. [47:35] We would create [47:36] these Facebook groups [47:37] about, for people that like, [47:39] you know, [47:39] cats and Beyonce [47:40] and chocolate chip cookies. [47:42] And so, if you are a person [47:44] that loves, okay, [47:45] you would be in the group. [47:46] And in the group, [47:48] within the content [47:48] in these groups, [47:49] we would only post about [47:51] cats, Beyonce, [47:53] and chocolate chip cookies. [47:54] And then, slowly, [47:56] we would start to introduce [47:57] political content [47:58] into... [47:59] I don't like that either, [48:00] to be honest. [48:01] Well, I'm just saying, [48:02] but, like, this is a version [48:03] of that. [48:03] And so, we've now taken it [48:05] off of Facebook. [48:06] Yes. [48:06] We've taken it off [48:07] of Facebook, [48:07] and now it's these political [48:08] influencers [48:09] or these political [48:10] content creators. [48:10] So, I do think [48:11] what is important, [48:12] one, I think that [48:14] content creation is hard, [48:15] okay? [48:16] I be trying to edit [48:17] my little show shenanigan [48:18] videos myself, [48:19] okay? [48:20] It's very hard. [48:21] I think that the content [48:22] creators and the influencers, [48:23] they should be paid. [48:24] I'm not mad they're getting paid. [48:25] People pay consultants, [48:27] okay? [48:27] But when I was a consultant [48:28] and I would go on television, [48:29] when I was a spokesperson, [48:30] it said in the chyron [48:31] who I was working for. [48:32] And I think it's important [48:34] that the people disclose [48:35] if they are being paid [48:37] and why. [48:38] Because, not to say [48:39] that being paid [48:40] influences what you say, [48:42] but people need to know. [48:44] When all of those things [48:46] are the same, [48:47] I mean, like, [48:47] just to be clear, [48:49] and this is probably [48:49] standards is gonna get on us, [48:50] I'm gonna make sure [48:50] we say this, [48:51] MS Now reporting found [48:52] that coordinated [48:53] pro-Stevens content [48:54] matched the pattern [48:56] of a paid campaign, [48:57] but did not establish [48:59] who paid for it [49:00] or connected to [49:00] the Stevens campaign. [49:02] I just, it is, [49:03] it is interesting [49:04] to say the least. [49:05] But like Simone said, [49:06] next week we're gonna talk [49:07] much more about [49:08] the Michigan primary. [49:09] We'll be all over your TVs [49:10] on Tuesday night [49:11] and on the podcast [49:12] we'll bring you [49:13] our post-game analysis. [49:15] Plus, we're gonna [49:15] zoom out, baby. [49:16] We like to zoom out here, [49:17] broaden the conversation [49:18] to how the midterms [49:19] are starting to come [49:20] into focus. [49:21] Yes, we are less than [49:22] 100 days out [49:23] from election day. [49:24] Clock in. [49:25] We're so close. [49:26] I don't know what this is. [49:26] Are these eyes? [49:27] I'm zooming in. [49:28] Focus. [49:28] Oh, zoom in. [49:30] Yeah, we're focusing. [49:31] We're focusing. [49:31] We're focusing. [49:31] We're focusing. [49:33] We're focusing.