The After Show – “Betrayal: Secrets & Lies” — 20/20: The After Show

[0:04] Hello, everybody. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Debra Roberts. And as always, I'm so glad that you're spending some time with us today. We have got a special episode. If you've been with us, you know that we typically take you behind the scenes of our latest 2020 program. But today we're going to take a little detour with somebody who spent a lot of time examining acts of betrayal and deceit. We're going to hear from Andrea Gunning. She hosts a popular true crime podcast called Betrayal. [0:33] It is at the center of almost everything that they are showing us. It inspired the hit series Betrayal Secrets and Lies. This show focuses not just on horrific crimes of fraud, double lives and deep deception, the kinds of things that you see on 2020 programs a lot. But most important, it celebrates the remarkable resilience of the people who have overcome the unthinkable. [0:58] So today, Andrea is sharing with us what she's learned over the four years of telling these stories. And she's going to give us kind of a deeper look behind the scenes of last night's episode, which was called The Kentucky Con Man. Andrea, such a pleasure to have you with us. Welcome. [1:16] Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. [1:18] Oh, my gosh, we're very excited. Well, you know, your podcast, your show has just been blowing up. People have been talking about it. So before we get into that, I want to know more about you. [1:28] Because you started your career in television as a producer. How did you find your way into the true crime genre and podcasting? [1:36] Well, you know, I work for Glass Entertainment Group, and that's led by the Nancy Glass, who is a pioneer in the space. [1:44] Yes, I remember. [1:44] And she is my mentor. She's taught me everything I know. [1:47] And, you know, many years ago, we were looking into diversifying, you know, our programming. [1:55] And we came across a story, and it was with Kim Goldman. [2:00] And you know that name? She lost her brother. [2:03] When we were developing her story, a lot of, you know, interested networks were only really considering her value if she would do the story with O.J. Simpson, if she would sit down with O.J. [2:18] And, you know, back in the day when I was eight years old and this trial was going on, I watched my mother watch the trial religiously. [2:25] Mesmerized, right? [2:26] She was so mesmerized and captivated. [2:29] And I would watch her watch it all day and then go out into the driveway and talk to her girlfriends about it. [2:33] And as an eight-year-old, you're like, what is going on? [2:36] You know, obviously, there's something amazing happening on screen, but what is drawing my mother to this story? [2:43] And so the very first podcast we did was told through the lens of the individuals that lived through that experience. [2:50] And it was led through Kim's POV telling stories from Kim's perspective, from survivor's perspectives has always been so deeply important to my work and why I do what I do, because it's really about the experience and what it does. [3:07] When you live through a crime, what is it like for the individuals that have, you know, who have had to sit by and watch this happen and also deal with it? [3:15] You know, it's so interesting because your work is called Betrayal. [3:19] It centers around Betrayal. [3:20] And we've done a number of stories at 2020 where there was somebody who nobody expected and there was betrayal at the core of all of this, lies, secrets. [3:29] I'm curious what led you, though. [3:30] I mean, it's one thing when you're talking about those survivors, but when you're talking about betrayal, I mean, that is such an intense and powerful feeling. [3:40] And so what was it that led you to look into this whole idea of broken trust and betrayal? [3:44] Jennifer, who is the subject of season one of betrayal, reached out to me. [3:49] And when she was sharing about what she went through with her ex-husband Spencer, I knew that gut feeling of what don't I know? [3:57] And I know that watershed moment when everything is revealed. [4:00] And so there was this piece of, like, this emotional access that I could relate to her that I said, there's something here to this. [4:07] I want to explore this more. [4:08] And that's what got me on the journey of betrayal. [4:10] Yeah. [4:11] And it's so fascinating. [4:12] I mean, people are just riveted by it, which I think is so interesting. [4:16] And I definitely want to get your take on that in a little while. [4:19] But you kind of shift the focus of these stories as well. [4:22] I mean, not just about the dark corners of all of that, which is very dark oftentimes, but you like to highlight the good in people as well. [4:30] And that's what I also find to be interesting. [4:32] You call it survivor-led true crime. [4:35] You know, Deborah, I've worked with these storytellers for, you know, over four years. [4:41] And even though they've gone through some of the worst that you could imagine, they are able to get up every day and put one foot in front of the other and have a close-hit family or a community. [4:53] And so to see that resilience firsthand is what is, you know, really kind of fortifies my own purpose. [5:04] We do explore the darkest in humanity, but in reality, it's also about the resilience of how they overcome. [5:09] These people just are able to get up every day and move forward. [5:14] And when I sit across from folks that I'm interviewing, and oftentimes they are either the victims or the relatives who are left behind, I'm often just amazed by how they can actually display this resilience. [5:26] I want to talk about what you explore a lot in these episodes. [5:30] And it's kind of like fairy tales gone wrong, right? [5:33] Relationships that have kind of imploded. [5:35] And oftentimes women who are deceived by partners or husbands, something that they didn't see coming. [5:43] And I'm always surprised, you know, for us, when they will sit down and share these stories. [5:49] Are you surprised, as I am sometimes, that people are willing to speak out publicly? [5:54] I am surprised by just the magnitude of betrayal and deception. [6:01] That's what usually surprises me. [6:03] But we have created such an incredible community at Betrayal. [6:07] So for individuals to feel safe and come forward and to write in, I know that we are creating a safe space for them. [6:16] There's just the magnitude of it all is really what is surprising to me. [6:20] Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. [6:22] You also talk about, you know, who is left to carry the shame. [6:26] You know, oftentimes, again, in these cases where maybe there was a woman who was either betrayed or tricked by someone, you know, sometimes the man heads off to prison. [6:37] And then the woman is left to deal with the consequences, right? [6:41] You know, that's something, too, that they have to deal with, that kind of trauma. [6:44] Do you think that sometimes talking about it, I find that some of the people will thank me afterwards for telling their stories. [6:51] Do you think that maybe in some ways that eases the trauma for them? [6:55] It's such a great question. [6:58] And, you know, these are stories about betrayal, lies, and deceptions. [7:02] But these are really love stories at the end of the day, whether it be between a husband and a wife, best friends, parent and child. [7:11] And so to really understand the stakes of the betrayal, you have to understand the love story to really get a sense of what is lost. [7:22] And so when you hear what two people mean to each other, and then the fallout, and what people end up having to carry because of that fallout, the weight of it for the viewer or the listener is profound. [7:39] And oftentimes, you know, people who are capable of wearing that mask and lying feel no shame. [7:48] Yeah. [7:48] Feel no remorse. [7:49] When you think about the relationships, you know, some of them are 20 years, some of them are 40. [7:54] These are meaningful to people. [7:56] They have to look back on their relationship and think, is it all a lie? [8:00] Yeah. [8:00] What did I miss? [8:01] What did I miss? [8:02] And am I guilty by association? [8:04] Because I chose to love and invest in care. [8:07] So, you know, carrying the shame is a huge theme at betrayal, and it's kind of at the center because there isn't a storyteller that I haven't met that hasn't felt that shame for what the person that they love did to them. [8:21] Well, you've got a classic example in last night's episode, the Kentucky con man. [8:26] It was unforgettable, centering on a woman who discovered that her husband was hiding a damaging secret for years. [8:33] We're going to talk about that in just a minute. [8:35] So, Andrea, don't go anywhere. [8:36] First, we've got to sneak in a break. [8:37] And when we come back, Andrea is going to tell us how that secret left a woman's family devastated and nearly homeless. [8:44] You don't want to miss it. [8:45] Don't go anywhere. [8:48] Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. [8:56] I'm speaking with Andrea Gunning, who is host of the breakout podcast, Betrayal, which has inspired the hit series that so many people are talking about. [9:05] And I've got to tell you, last night's episode was pretty unbelievable. [9:09] It's centered on Libby Henry, who thought that her husband, Ted, was her knight in shining armor. [9:15] He had a charisma. [9:16] He had power, a successful career at a mortgage company. [9:19] They were living a life of luxury until, one day, Libby discovered a trail of lies. [9:27] Here's a clip of what aired last night. [9:32] One day, he had his hands resting on the sink. [9:38] He looked like he was crying. [9:40] And he goes, he's going to screw me over. [9:46] I don't know what that Khalid will do. [9:49] And I go, I'm not sure what we're talking about. [9:51] What do you mean? [9:52] And he looked at me and he goes, that guy might kill you and our daughter. [10:02] Andrea, we learned that Ted was committing mortgage fraud for millions of dollars. [10:09] And the worst part, he brought his wife into it. [10:12] How did you learn about this particular story? [10:15] We have hundreds of people that write into the Betrayal email, just who listen to the show and want to, you know, share their story. [10:23] And I remember when Libby's story came across my desk. [10:27] For me, what was so interesting was that she was very honest about the fact that she didn't know the business end of her marriage. [10:36] And it wasn't until she was watching a program on TV that she realized, wait, something's not right. [10:41] Like she had that gut intuition, that feeling of, wait, let me, let me explore, let me investigate this. [10:48] And it was in that piece where all of a sudden her intuition, you know, sparks. [10:53] It kicked in. [10:54] It kicked in. [10:54] And she listened and she started to poke. [10:57] And when she did, it started to unravel. [10:59] And that was what made me really interested in telling Libby's story. [11:03] She sort of revealed to you she knew little about the finances at home and her husband was able to sort of get away with this scheme for a while. [11:11] Looking back, did she begin to then sort of remember red flags that she had noticed early on? [11:17] I think looking back, she wishes she asked more questions, that she was more involved in the financial aspect of her marriage. [11:24] But, you know, at the end of the day, when you get married and you people, you make arrangements all the time with the people that you trust. [11:32] And so she trusted Ted to handle the financials. [11:36] She's not expecting him to be doing this multimillion dollar mortgage fraud scheme. [11:41] And, you know, I think a lot of people say, well, what did they miss or what didn't they see? [11:49] And at Betrayal, we really believe in betrayal blindness. [11:52] Like she genuinely thought he was just going to work every day. [11:55] So I think for Libby, her only regret is not asking more questions and being more involved. [12:00] But, you know, there was a promise there that she would run the household and he would run the business. [12:05] So, you know, she trusted him. [12:08] Yeah. As far as she was concerned, it was working. [12:10] He was handling the finances, the taxes and things like that, the checking account and all of that. [12:14] She had spinal issues, surgery when her daughter was young. [12:18] And that prevented her from working. [12:20] And she sort of settled into this routine of him sort of, you know, handling everything. [12:25] So that kind of set her up that once she had this life going and she felt like it was going well, she kind of didn't really have a lot of support in a way. [12:33] Right. [12:34] That's right. [12:34] And you bring up a really good point about her story. [12:36] It's not like we're talking about someone that's like, I'm not going to work. [12:39] I don't want to work. [12:40] And her husband, you know, after her surgeries, he was like, do not worry about this. [12:45] I will run the household. [12:47] I will make sure we're okay. [12:49] Yeah. [12:49] Well, there's a major turn in this story. [12:52] And it's when Libby goes to the FBI with a letter that Ted had written to her, explaining everything, actually begging her to take him back once their marriage had kind of ruptured over this. [13:02] And the FBI tells her that if you want to say that she committed a crime, which she didn't, it was only just entrusting her husband. [13:09] That couldn't have been easy for her to hear. [13:12] What was she like trying to process that? [13:15] You know, we say this now all the time since working on Libby's story is the only thing these people are guilty of is trusting and loving, you know, whoever that relationship was. [13:26] And while my actual feeling is usually that's met with relief because it kind of takes that shame away. [13:38] And I do think that there is, I think, a tendency of people to judge, especially when they're sitting back and they're looking in, how could you not have seen this? [13:46] And, you know, when people are in these relationships, as you say, and they've kind of had a life that has seemed to work for them, you can sort of understand how they might be blindsided. [13:55] And in her case, she truly was. [13:58] You tell us about how he had essentially run their finances into the ground. [14:03] Once they did split up, I mean, she was left with nothing. [14:07] And she and her daughter are trying to pick up the pieces of a mess. [14:10] Ted was ultimately sentenced to 18 months in prison, three years probation for his crimes. [14:16] And she told you that she felt that she was in a way sentenced to, at least in the court of public opinion. [14:22] And it's hard to believe that people would actually sort of turn on the person who was the victim. [14:26] But she says she became a social pariah. [14:29] I mean, how do you even explain that, that people would blame her when it was her husband who committed this crime? [14:36] I think in cases of financial crime in particular, a lot of people will look to the wife to say, well, you were enjoying the fruits of all of that. [14:48] Exactly. And so, you know, they don't hold space for the fact that she didn't know any better. [14:56] She thought that he was making an earnest and honest living, you know. [15:00] And we often talk about secondary betrayal, right? [15:05] So there's the betrayal with the partner. [15:07] But then there's the aftermath with the community or the justice system. [15:12] Did your partner or the person that harmed you not get enough time? [15:15] And did your community turn their back on you? [15:18] And oftentimes we see that our storytellers have a really hard time walking in their world that they're used to because people look at them differently. [15:28] And don't separate them from the perpetrator or the offender. [15:34] Yeah. [15:34] And so that's a whole other side to it that we explore as a show. [15:40] Yeah, you absolutely do. [15:42] Now, does she blame herself? [15:43] And how was she able to kind of move forward a little bit and pick up the pieces when you talk to her about that? [15:47] I think that, you know, sharing what happened to her gives her a purpose and educating other people of what she didn't know when she was in her marriage and help educate and inform is really helpful to her. [16:03] And, you know, she has a great support group, you know, wives of white collar crimes. [16:08] Sometimes they have a little support group together because, you know, you hear of people going to support groups, but you don't hear of hyper-specific ones of something that you may experience, especially with betrayal trauma. [16:20] That's kind of interesting, wives of white collar crimes. [16:23] Tell us a little more about that. [16:25] Yeah, so she is part of a support group with other wives that have gone through, you know, their partner being convicted of financial crimes and experienced the same thing that Libby has, which is shame and judgment and grief and confusion because in many times their community has turned their back on them or, you know, has judgment and there is shame. [16:53] And so I think with that community, that's been really healing for her. [16:57] Yeah, they can support each other. [16:58] It clearly is something that I think that people don't necessarily always understand. [17:02] Well, Andrea, we're going to have to squeeze in one more quick break. [17:05] And when we come back, Andrea is going to share more about the work that she's doing and the biggest lessons that she's learned from some of the most shocking stories. [17:13] Stay with us. [17:14] Don't go anywhere. [17:22] Hello, everybody. [17:23] Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. [17:25] So I am speaking with Andrea Gunning, who is the host of Betrayal, the popular podcast and series that so many people have been listening to and talking about. [17:35] And these stories have been so captivating, Andrea, large audiences. [17:39] Why do you think your podcast has resonated with so many people? [17:42] I think it taps into a very real fear and curiosity that the person that you love and trust the most could end up being a complete stranger. [17:53] And so I think people tune in out of that curiosity. [17:59] And then I think they stay because of the profound resilience that these storytellers, you know, exhibit. [18:08] And there's a lesson there often, but I'm very curious. [18:11] I've been dying to ask somebody this, and you're the perfect person, because oftentimes when people come up to me to talk about how much they enjoy 2020 episodes, they're women. [18:21] And a big chunk of our audience is women. [18:23] Why do you think so many women gravitate to true crime in general? [18:27] And, you know, putting these podcasts like yours and our program, you know, sort of at the top of the heap. [18:32] What is it about women being fascinated by true crime, do you think? [18:36] I think it's looking for warning signs. [18:38] I think it's looking for red flags. [18:40] I think it's hypervigilance. [18:42] Now, I personally don't believe in red flags, so it's kind of against my ideology. [18:47] But I think as women, you know, we have to move about the world being hypervigilant. [18:54] I know that I go to true crime because I'm really interested in the characters and how things unfolded. [19:00] How did this happen to somebody? [19:02] And it's just that curiosity. [19:04] And can I avoid it in my own life? [19:07] And so I think it's that curiosity and looking for, you know, information, really. [19:15] And I don't know. [19:15] I have to sort of part with you a little bit there because I kind of do believe there are red flags. [19:20] And I think when you see these stories, you know, oftentimes you see patterns repeated. [19:26] And sometimes I think it is easy to overlook these things. [19:30] And, you know, I don't know when I just sort of take the whole of what we're looking at. [19:34] I happen to think, too, that women may be drawn to these stories. [19:38] As you say, they're curious. [19:39] And it's not really just about the crime. [19:41] It's not about the gore. [19:42] I think it's about putting the puzzle pieces together, how the police or whoever untangled these cases, how they were able to do that. [19:50] I think they're just very curious about how things play out. [19:56] And, you know, and to your point, too, resilience, you know, how people overcame something. [20:01] I do think that women like to dig deep, you know, sort of in that emotional sphere to talk a lot. [20:06] You know, it's interesting when I think about your podcast and I think about 2020, I think, you know, the one thing that is sort of unveiled is a very sad truth, which is that women are so often victims in our society when you talk about true crime. [20:21] I mean, so many of our stories have women at the core who are true victims. [20:25] And I don't know how you feel about it, but I think there's something about at least these warning signs and helping women to to see and uncover some of those dangers out there. [20:36] What are your thoughts? [20:37] It's true. [20:37] And so even though we may differ in our opinions about warning signs, the only way that I can combat, you know, not being able to see or predict betrayal or crime is raising awareness and telling stories and growing a community. [20:59] And it's through people sharing their lived experience, like whether it's on 2020 or betrayal, that people can realize that they're not alone and that, you know, I think women are incredible at sharing that sense of vulnerability to raise awareness and to inform. [21:20] You highlight a lot of survivors who are strong people who have become strong as a result of what they've endured. [21:25] What have you learned from these survivors as their stories, you know, start to to add up for you? [21:31] Have they had any impact on you either personally or, you know, in your own life? [21:36] Profound, a profound impact. [21:39] You know, a number of them are invited to my wedding, which is in the fall. [21:43] Really? [21:44] Because they have fundamentally shaped my sense of understanding and love and trust. [21:51] And so for me, it's just that nothing is permanent. [21:56] You know, you can go through something really devastating. [21:59] But, you know, with people by your side and with Will, you can overcome. [22:07] I mean, we often talk about that moment, like when you're going through grief, laying on your bed and waking up in the morning and saying, I just can't wait for this day to be over. [22:15] And every one of my storytellers have had that experience, but then that thought dissipates a little bit over time and then joy comes in and laughter. [22:25] And so to see how far all of like that they have how far they have come just reminds me that, you know, nothing is permanent and everything is progress is not a straight line, but nothing's permanent. [22:37] That's a that's a beautiful way of looking at it. [22:39] And you've made friendships with with a lot of these folks that you've spoken with. [22:42] So that's that's pretty amazing. [22:44] Well, as I said, the the series, the podcast, they're all just so fascinating. [22:49] And again, a lot of connections here to what we do at 2020. [22:52] Such a pleasure to spend some time with you, Andrea. [22:54] Thanks for coming by. [22:55] Pleasure is all mine. [22:56] Thank you for having me. [22:57] Well, you can actually catch Betrayal Secrets and Lies on Sunday nights on ABC, and you can stream the next day on Disney Plus and Hulu. [23:06] And thank you all so much for joining us. [23:07] And of course, you can always watch our 2020 episodes, too, on Friday nights on ABC, and you can stream episodes just like this one anytime again on Disney Plus and Hulu. [23:18] We appreciate having you guys take it easy and have a good day.