Sens. Katie Britt, Mark Kelly and more

[0:01] i'm margaret brennan in washington and this week on face the nation tensions build in the [0:06] caribbean plus is there an end in sight to the government shutdown as he pushes for peace in [0:13] ukraine and the middle east president trump is leaning in the opposite direction on venezuela [0:19] with u.s forces killing 29 people accused of drug trafficking in six strikes on vessels since [0:26] september and the president offering a stark warning to venezuelan leader nicholas maduro [0:32] he's offered everything you're right you know why because he doesn't want around with the [0:38] united states meanwhile massive crowds of protesters took to the streets in dozens of [0:43] cities rallying against trump's policies as the government shutdown drags on for a third week [0:49] we'll get the latest from democratic senator mark kelly plus republican senator katie britt [0:54] who helped the president unveil [0:56] a new plan to expand access to fertility treatments then as trump's tariffs continue [1:03] evolving we'll get an update on the global economy from the president of the european [1:07] central bank christine lagarde finally a conversation with three college professors [1:13] on how the trump administration's demands to align schools with its priorities could change [1:19] their jobs their institutions and their students it's all just ahead on face the nation [1:40] good morning and welcome to face the nation we have a lot to get to today and we begin with [1:45] arizona democratic senator mark kelly who's here in studio with us good morning to you senator good [1:50] morning a lot to get to i want to start on what you are seeing as a member of senate armed services [1:56] and the intelligence committees there are about 10 000 u.s forces now that are built up in the [2:01] caribbean area either on ships or in puerto rico three b-2 b-52 bombers flew near venezuela last [2:10] week there have now been six maritime strikes by u.s special operations forces [2:15] what is this adding up to is the trump administration planning regime change in [2:20] venezuela well i hope not regime change hasn't ever really worked out well for us as a nation [2:26] where we've supported that whether it was in vietnam cuba iraq afghanistan it doesn't go the [2:33] way we think and it puts a tremendous number of americans in harm's way the u.s military the guys [2:40] on v-52s close to the coast those those folks are at risk uh members of the united states navy [2:47] now in this operation which uh is clearly traditionally a law enforcement operation [2:53] uh now escalating to something maybe as the president talks about regime change i think [2:58] this is the wrong move for this president um the coast guard has the resources to do this [3:04] to interject to interject drugs that's the way this has traditionally been done and i do worry a [3:10] lot about the legal authorities or lack thereof that the united states military has to conduct [3:17] these kind of strikes and you've been briefed on what legal authorities are being invoked do [3:20] you think they are insufficient at this point i mean they they had a very hard time explaining [3:26] to us the rationale the legal rationale for doing this and the constitutionality of of doing it when [3:32] you consider what you know the law of warfare especially at sea it was a very convoluted [3:40] it also included by the way a a secret list of over 20 narco organizations drug trafficking cartels [3:50] they wouldn't share with us the list so the the brief we got was uh had a tremendous number of [3:56] holes in it and they had to go round and around to give us the the legal rationale for doing this [4:03] and what i worry about margaret are all these young military personnel that might find out [4:09] you know months from now that what they did [4:11] was illegal and then you get to what are we trying to accomplish here we want to keep fentanyl [4:18] out of the out of the united states and i don't know how widely known this is but those routes [4:25] through the caribbean on boats uh are predominantly used to bring cocaine to europe [4:33] to europe yes not to u.s shores that's right fentanyl [4:36] tends to come from a different way and we do want to keep fentanyl out of the out of the united [4:43] but to this point you just said the legality of what's being done um cbs reporting indicates that [4:48] the commander who was running southern command admiral alvin halsey was pressured to leave his [4:54] command post early just a year into a four-year post and that there were tensions with secretary [4:59] hegseth that were leading up to that departure which hegseth characterized as just a retirement [5:04] you speak to the top officers can they with confidence refuse unlawful orders without fear [5:13] of retribution or even losing their pensions well i don't know about losing their pension [5:18] but they should this is more important than any single person this is about our democracy [5:25] at this point and those admirals and generals they need to speak truth to power i've had [5:31] conversations with the most senior members of our military about this specific thing [5:37] they cannot be breaking the law doesn't matter if the president or the secretary of defense tells [5:43] them to do something if it's against the law they have to stay say no they're not required [5:48] to follow an unlawful order so we expect that from them i don't know the exact circumstances [5:56] why the admiral quit he hasn't said publicly yet i expect in time we're going to find find out more [6:03] but you think he did quit it wasn't just a retirement suddenly i don't know they could [6:08] have forced him out he could have he could have quit he could have said hey [6:13] you're not accepting my advice you need somebody else in here i i don't know i i hate to speculate [6:19] about it he had a long um service in the u.s military highly decorated and a tremendous leader [6:29] i appreciate his service to to this country uh all of us all u.s citizens would be better served [6:36] if this administration listened to the advice of those military leaders especially the secretary [6:43] of defense who thinks he is really good at this he should have never had this job he was unqualified [6:48] for the job and in my view the president should have fired him multiple times on ukraine you've [6:54] been an outspoken supporter of it um some of the pilots trained in your state after president [6:59] zielinski met with president trump on friday he said they sort of agreed to disagree on [7:04] whether to get these long-range missiles these tomahawks that would allow them to fire into russia [7:10] where does that stand president biden wouldn't do this either yeah [7:15] so i spoke to zielinski three weeks ago in new york right after his meeting with donald trump and [7:19] we talked about tomahawks in that meeting much longer range over a thousand miles uh 700 700 [7:26] pound warhead really good game-changing um the president said he would consider giving them these [7:33] this weapon system and then he had a conversation with vladimir putin uh and i think it's important [7:39] for people to recognize vladimir putin is a former kgb officer he is a master manipulator the [7:45] president has one view then he talks to vladimir putin and he changes his story on this of course [7:53] putin does not want ukraine to get a longer range missile that could go after targets deep into [7:59] russia beyond moscow and st petersburg by the way it can range targets much further it's very [8:04] accurate it's a very survivable weapon uh and and and putin has a conversation with him and those [8:10] weapons are now off the table hey i think ukraine can handle uh if we can give them [8:15] enough rounds if we have them in our inventory and enough launchers ground launchers are rather [8:20] new to this system something we got rid of for a long period of time they've demonstrated their [8:25] ability to operate a sophisticated weapon system like the f-16 they could handle this and it would [8:31] help uh zelinski says they're going to continue to try to persuade president trump i have to ask [8:36] you about the shutdown the republican leader john thune has offered to sit down with democrats to [8:45] help democrats end the shutdown he posted this on social media can you bank this as a win and agree [8:52] to start negotiations that's what we want we want negotiations on how to fix how i didn't look at his [8:58] his tweet but what we need is to fix this skyrocketing premium they're going to go up on [9:05] november 1st for people they can't afford it people in my state i've talked to so many people this [9:09] woman emily whose husband's a pastor who has three kids says without the affordable care act she can [9:15] have insurance for her children they don't get it through his work so what we need to do is fix this [9:22] health care premium issue and open the government but don't you need to do that before november 1st [9:26] when premiums go up are you going to end the shutdown before november 1st i i would like to [9:30] i'd like to we could we should be able to wrap this up this week if they will sit down and have [9:34] a negotiation with us the president has spent one hour negotiating this issue with leadership in [9:40] congress that's it one hour they need to get in the room and stay in a room until we can hash this [9:45] out and we'll finish this week but the president has said he wants to fix this premium thing and [9:50] he wants the government open that's what we want well we'll see if there's progress this week [9:54] uh center thank you for your time thank you we turn now to republican senator katie brit who [9:59] joins us from tuscaloosa alabama welcome to face the nation center thank you so much for having me [10:06] margaret i appreciate it look forward to being on here i want to talk about a lot of things but let [10:10] me just pick up where senator kelly left off on the shutdown he said hey you could all hash this [10:14] out this week leader thune made that offer um i know you have said you want to fix this premium [10:18] you also are concerned insurance premiums are going to go up, whether Congress extends the [10:24] tax credits related to Obamacare that Democrats are campaigning for or not here, basically. [10:29] Do you want this extended? First of all, Margaret, we need to reopen the government. Democrats need [10:37] to come to the table and do the right thing. Just as I've been traveling the state this weekend, [10:42] I have heard countless stories of people who are not getting a paycheck, whether it's our men and [10:47] women in uniform or those who serve alongside them, or whether we're talking to veterans or [10:51] we're talking to just a number of people when we're looking at what's happening with WIC. [10:56] There are a lot of people that are being affected by the Democrats playing politics, [11:00] and they need to actually do what's right, and that is work for the American people. [11:05] And so getting the government open is number one. So we need to vote on the CR and open the [11:09] government back up. We've also given alternatives like in-government shutdown. And I think you'll [11:13] see this week, if the Democrats don't come to the table, us saying, [11:17] look, we're not going to do that. We're not going to do that. [11:17] We're not going to do that. We're not going to do that. We're not going to do that. We're not going to do that. [11:17] Look, a shutdown fairness act, making sure that the people who are working are actually getting [11:21] paychecks. Because Margaret, these have real consequences for American people. And when we're [11:26] talking about the ACA, look, Leader Thune said it best. We have always said we will have a [11:32] conversation about this. We believe that you can walk and chew gum at the same time. Democrats, [11:36] for some reason, don't think that that's possible. They need to come to the table, [11:40] open the government back up, and then we're happy to have a conversation about the broken system [11:44] that they created and help them get out of this. [11:47] But you do personally think the federal government should be offsetting some of these [11:52] costs? Because we looked at the numbers. I think it's like 130,000 Alabamans are at risk of losing [11:57] insurance if the tax credit goes away. Margaret, let's be honest about this. [12:03] Let's go back to Obamacare 2010. This is the Affordable Care Act that even the Washington [12:09] Post has said was never really affordable. You go to 2014, and what you see there, though, [12:14] was increases made by the Democrats. And then these increases that we're talking about right [12:18] now, insurance companies have said only account for about 4% of what they're talking about [12:23] increasing in 2026. The underlying issue is the brokenness of Obamacare. That is the problem. And [12:30] so when you think about this, you've got the 2021 premiums that they've given to everyone. Do you [12:36] understand Democrats are actually asking for us to continue premiums that are going to millionaires [12:41] in some cases? We've got to be more responsible with taxpayer dollars. And if you want these [12:48] people to work, then we have to have a larger conversation. But this is absolutely, totally [12:53] ridiculous to sit here and say, we're afraid people cannot afford their health care, but at [12:58] the same time, we're going to deny them their paycheck. Those two things do not match up. And [13:03] Democrats need to actually be honest about it and get the government back open. And we're happy to [13:09] have conversations, as we have always said, just as Leader Thune reiterated this week. [13:14] You were in the Oval Office discussing another health care matter with President Trump this [13:18] past week. He credited you with announcing, well, basically explaining to him that February 2024 [13:25] decision by an Alabama court that ruled frozen embryos are children. He called it a bad decision. [13:32] And we all probably remember what it did for those families trying to go through [13:36] fertilization treatment at that time. With the changes that were announced, [13:40] who's going to be able to afford this now? Look, millions more people are going to be [13:46] able to afford this because of President Trump's leadership. From the very first time, [13:50] I talked to him about this, Margaret. He has been steadfast and unwavering, understanding that [13:55] there are people from coast to coast that have been praying to be able to start their family or [14:00] expand their family. And because of infertility, here in the United States, we've seen one in eight [14:06] families that are actually struggling with infertility issues. We've got about 9 percent [14:11] of men, 11 percent of women who are facing these challenges. President Trump believes in being, [14:17] obviously, the president that is helping hardworking Americans, [14:20] helping parents, helping families. He's turned the Republican Party into that, which is so [14:25] exciting. And we want to make sure that they're going to be able to do that at a greater, at a [14:30] greater scale. And so that's exactly what this will do. Millions more will have access. And [14:34] additionally, we're going to drive the cost down. And so I talked this weekend, actually, with a [14:39] friend of mine who came up to me and said, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this [14:43] because the affordability issue was the impediment. And she actually had to [14:48] go off, off, off, overshortened. [14:50] She had to go on tours overseas to try to be able to bring life into this world. So it's exciting for [14:55] people like her. And I have had grandparents and parents and moms and dads tell me what a game [15:01] changer this is for them as they start and grow their family. [15:03] Well, one cycle of IVF can cost between $15,000 to $20,000. And lower-income women, [15:09] obviously, have a challenge with that. But during the campaign, President Trump said he was going [15:12] to make the government pay for it or make insurance companies pay for it. So do you think that the [15:18] Affordable Care Act, that Obamacare, that the Affordable Care Act, that the Affordable Care Act [15:20] for example, should cover it? Or is it too controversial for conservatives who have a moral [15:25] issue with IVF? [15:28] Well, Margaret, first, I mean, the Affordable Care Act is broken. And that is what we're seeing [15:33] right now. I mean, you've seen the increases that people will see in 2026. Eighty percent of those [15:38] are just Obamacare, Affordable Care Act related. And so we clearly see that the underlying structure [15:45] of this program is not sustainable and is not working for the American people. No one is paying [15:50] less now that Obamacare is up and running. And so I think that's a big problem. [15:52] And so we've got to be super honest about that. We also have to make sure that we're being [15:57] responsible moving forward. What President Trump has done is made this accessible to millions more [16:03] people. He's going to continue leading on this issue. It's still not free. It's still not free, [16:09] right? Support hardworking families. Do you want to legislate, though, to force it to be? [16:15] What I want to do is I want as many people as possible to have opportunity to bring life into [16:20] this world. And that's exactly what this is doing. We'll continue to work. We're going to work. We're [16:24] going to work on this issue. We also want to support families as they have children and are [16:28] able to, you know, in this environment right now, we hear from people all the time, whether it is [16:34] bringing life into this world, whether it is the child care cost, just the affordability aspect. [16:40] And I am so proud to see President Trump lead on these. Actually, if you look at the working [16:44] families tax cut, Margaret, this is the very first time we have actually increased the child [16:49] care tax credits and also the decap tax credits. [16:54] And 20 years in some instances and 40 and others. So we're trying to make sure that people can not [16:59] only bring life into this world, but that it's more affordable when they get here because we [17:02] want people to start and grow their families. Really, that's what this is doing. This is just [17:07] the just the start and look forward to continuing to work for the American people. [17:11] Really quickly, you've been trying to label Russia state sponsor of terrorism for stealing [17:16] Ukrainian children. Does the president's decision to meet with Vladimir Putin endanger your efforts [17:20] to get this bill passed? [17:22] Look, I am grateful for President. [17:25] Trump's efforts on this. If you look back, we are in this war because of President Biden. [17:29] If President Biden had sent the weaponry needed to Ukraine on the front end when we saw Russia [17:35] building up, we wouldn't be in this war to start with. When you're looking at what President Trump [17:39] has done, he has met with Zelensky more times in his nine months in office than President Biden did [17:44] his entire time. So do you have support to bring it to the floor, have resolution? [17:49] Well, the first lady obviously has been leading on this. We have built up support. We're having [17:53] a hearing next week. I think you will. [17:55] See this come to the floor if there is not a resolution in the short order, because we believe [18:01] in bringing these children home. Margaret, it's about 20,000 children that have been stolen from [18:05] their homes. This is something everyone should be able to get behind and Vladimir Putin should pay [18:10] the price for. [18:11] Katie Britt of the state of Alabama, thank you for your time this morning. Face Nation will be [18:15] back in a minute. Stay with us. We turn now to the Middle East, where new attacks broke out [18:22] overnight in Gaza. Deborah Pata has the latest from the region. [18:27] We're seeing the first heavy clashes. [18:29] Between the Israeli defense forces and Hamas since the ceasefire began. The IDF says militants [18:35] opened fire on their forces stationed behind the agreed line in Rafah. Hamas says they were [18:41] not involved and have lost contact with fighters on the ground there. [18:45] The ceasefire is under threat as both sides accuse the other of violations. Nine Palestinian [18:53] civilians were killed after Israeli forces opened fire on a vehicle they say posed imminent danger [19:00] when it came to Gaza. [19:01] In Gaza, a man, who was a member of the Israeli military, said the same thing about the Israeli [19:04] military. [19:05] He said they never came too close to them. [19:08] The truth is only on paper, said this mourner, on the ground, we are still dying. [19:14] As excavation teams continue to search for the remaining hostage bodies, Israel insists Hamas is [19:20] deliberately stalling their return. Families and friends gathered in Tel Aviv last night, urging [19:27] the U.S. to finish the job. [19:29] In retaliation, Israel has closed the Rafa crossing from Egypt into Gaza indefinitely. [19:31] The U.S. has now sent a mission to the Middle East, which is now in the middle of a civil war. [19:32] it was expected to reopen allowing palestinians [19:36] to exit for medical treatment the delivery of a [19:40] into Gaza has been stepped up but the World Food Program's Antoine Renard says [19:45] it is not enough and called for all eight crossings [19:49] to be opened that is a real issue because you can't have [19:52] only two entry points to reach two million people [19:56] it's impossible it as if now you going to Manhattan [19:59] and you have two bridges and that's it imagine how complicated will be [20:03] the second phase of the ceasefire process includes [20:07] disarming Hamas and establishing [20:10] an international governing authority right now [20:14] there is a power vacuum and Hamas is back on the streets it says to restore [20:20] law and order Monday they were videos of armed men including [20:25] Hamas fighters executing palestinians [20:28] they accuse being criminal [20:31] gangs armed by Israel and following those clashes between the IDF and Hamas [20:38] Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has instructed security officials in his [20:42] words to act forcefully against terror targets and we hear from Gaza the drones [20:48] and fighter jets are back in the skies that's Deborah Pata in Ramallah an [20:54] Israeli source tells CBS News that the u.s. was notified ahead of the strike in [21:00] Rafa in tonight's 60 minutes let's get back to the news [21:03] Lesley Stahl speaks exclusively with us on boys Steve Witkoff and advisor Jared [21:08] Kushner the two key negotiators in the fragile peace deal between Israel and [21:13] Hamas in Gaza Hamas now is using weapons to execute people that they perceive as [21:22] their enemies in Gaza they're also using their weapons to reestablish themselves [21:27] as the entity that is governing Gaza they're moving into the vacuum Hamas [21:34] right now is doing exactly what you would expect a terrorist organization to [21:37] do which is to try to reconstitute and take back their positions right the [21:42] successor failure of this will be if Israel and this international mechanism [21:46] is able to create a viable alternative if they are successful Hamas will fail [21:51] and Gaza will not be a threat to Israel in the future you can see more of the [21:57] interview in a new episode of 60 minutes tonight at 7 p.m. or after football we'll [22:03] be right back with a lot more face the nation [22:09] now by the president of the European Central Bank Christine lagarde the ECB sets interest [22:14] rates for many countries in the European Union which is America's largest trading partner good [22:19] to have you here lovely to be back Margaret from where you sit how would you describe the state of [22:24] the global economy in transformation transformation transformation I think caused by a couple of things [22:30] one is the tariffs which have changed the map of trade around the world and reconstituted new [22:37] alliances and reformed the way in which [22:39] we trade with each other I think the second major transformation is the impact of artificial [22:44] intelligence on everything we do from data management to dating and everything in between [22:49] absolutely and it's changing how we even receive the data itself to indicate what's happening but [22:57] the stock market has been up and down I want to talk to you on the other side of this commercial [23:02] break about some of the specifics with these trade wars and what else you're seeing in Europe we're [23:08] going to take a quick break here and we have more questions [23:11] but we have to come back in just one moment welcome back to face the nation we return to [23:23] our conversation with European Central Bank president Christine lagarde you said the [23:28] economy is in transformation S P Global forecast Trump's tariffs are going to cost global businesses [23:35] upwards of 1.2 trillion dollars this year with a lot of those costs passed along to consumers [23:40] themselves you've said that many economists overestimated the impact of Trump's tariffs [23:47] does that mean you think [23:49] we've moved past the point of risk or are we yet to feel the pain I think we're yet to feel the pain [23:55] what we observe I'll give you some numbers from Europe to the United States our goods to the U.S [24:02] consumers had a tariff of 1.5 with the tariff that was decided by the U.S administration it's [24:10] gone up to 13 so the question is where does this additional 11ish percentage point go at the moment [24:19] on the exporter so the European company one-third of the U.S importer and one-third of the consumer [24:27] what will happen though is that these two-thirds born by two corporates essentially the exporter [24:32] and the importer is based on a squeeze of their margins how long are they going to put up with [24:38] a squeeze of the margin to be seen and when they don't because it's becoming too tight then it will [24:44] be on the consumer so it's a question of time how much they can stomach the hit to their own profits [24:49] before passing that along [24:50] well there are talks happening we understand between the world's two largest economies the [24:57] treasury secretary Scott bassin said on social media he's going to meet with China's vice [25:02] premier in the coming days this was after he called the negotiator unhinged recently and [25:08] President Trump said that starting November 1st there will be new tariffs as retaliation for [25:13] Chinese restrictions on rare Earth exports these are the largest economies in the world where does [25:20] this go [25:21] how damaging does this get first of all I would discount a little bit of the positioning at the [25:27] moment because this is typical of negotiating tactics on both sides typical you show your [25:33] muscles and you say that you're ready to kill I'm exaggerating of course yeah but people will have to [25:38] come to the table because it's the interest of both economies despite the hostility that there is [25:43] between the two but China is using an advantage that it has built over the course of time by [25:50] accumulating Rare Earth and the ways to refine [25:53] earth and then to sell it to the rest of the world they have a very very strong trading position on [25:59] that front and they're going to use it which is why i think that on the other side the consumers [26:03] that is the united states europe and a few other countries around the world we should you know [26:08] join forces and be a purchasing force on the other side of the table of a selling force well exactly [26:16] to that point there has been frustration on the american side of it that europe hasn't been [26:22] standing lockstep with the united states when it comes to china that china has leverage over [26:29] europe here well china currently has leverage against most countries that consume rare earth [26:35] and i think on the front of rare earth the europeans and the americans are in the same boat [26:40] and they're rowing in the same direction but it's other items that you see well i think you know [26:45] it's not for me to say i'm just a central banker but the the european authorities and the admins [26:50] the u.s administration [26:52] see it slightly differently i think it's the the u.s would see a blanket force i think the [26:58] europeans are more interested in targeting specific industries or specific sectors where [27:02] they think that it will make a difference so it's a question of tactics that they will be discussing [27:07] i'm sure so you have also said recently that you think investors have begun to question whether [27:13] the dollar would still warrant its status as the ultimate safe haven currency i mean the american [27:17] dollar is one of the strongest weapons frankly that that the administration has [27:22] to use do you think that it is the rise of cryptocurrency that is most threatening to that [27:27] or why are you worried i see signs that the the attraction of the dollar is slightly eroded and [27:38] future will tell whether there is more erosion of that but when you look at the rise of cryptos [27:43] number one when you look at the price of gold gold is typically in any situation [27:48] the ultimate destination for safe heaven price of gold has increased by more than [27:53] 50 since the beginning of the year that's a clear sign that the trust in the reserve currency that [28:00] the dollar has been is and will continue to be is eroding a bit in addition to that we've seen [28:06] capital flows outside of the u.s towards other destinations including europe so you know for a [28:13] currency to be really trusted you need a few things you need geopolitical credibility you need [28:20] the rule of law and strong institutions [28:23] and you need um i would call it a military force that is strong enough i think on at least one and [28:32] possibly two accounts the us is still in a very dominant position but it needs to be very careful [28:38] because those positions erode over the course of time we've seen it with the sterling pound [28:42] you know way back after after the war but it happens gently gently you don't notice it and [28:48] then it happens suddenly and we are seeing intriguing signs of it which [28:54] is why i think that having a strong institution with the fed for instance is important having a [29:00] credible environment within which to trade is important so volatility uncertainty to [29:06] the extent it is fueled by the administration is not helpful to the dollar quickly on ukraine [29:13] president zielinski said he spoke to you recently about using frozen russian assets what is fair use [29:18] in your view i think fair use would consist of an operational loan [29:24] that would be using cash balances as collaterals and i think that the strength of the system [29:31] should be based on everyone holding russian assets to do the same thing so if all those countries [29:38] holding assets that have cash balances available as collaterals go in the same direction of lending [29:44] the money to ukraine to be repaid by russian financing of the reconstruction of ukraine [29:49] because russia is the aggressor then i think that that would go a long way in convincing russia that [29:54] it has to come to the table and then we can have some kind of alternative by the end of the year so [29:55] do i think that's what we have a lot of to be done we have a lot of potential there's a lot of potential [29:55] able to negotiate. [29:56] Christine Lagarde, always great to [29:58] hear your insights. [29:59] We'll be right back. [30:00] We turn now to higher education. [30:07] Universities are resisting [30:09] the Trump administration's proposal [30:11] to reward schools that commit to [30:13] President Trump's priorities. [30:15] The White House has requested that [30:17] nine universities sign a nine [30:19] page compact or [30:20] risk foregoing federal benefits. [30:23] Tomorrow's the deadline for [30:24] feedback. And so far, not one [30:26] college has agreed to sign, and at [30:28] least six have rejected it. [30:31] The compact, reviewed by CBS [30:33] News, states that universities [30:35] pledge not to use race or sex [30:36] in admissions and hiring, freeze [30:39] tuition for five years, [30:40] cap international enrollment at 15% [30:43] and require standardized testing. [30:46] There is also a pledge for all [30:48] employees to abstain from speech [30:51] related to politics. [30:53] On Thursday, we spoke with three [30:55] professors who represent the views [30:56] of their respective faculties. [30:58] Jerry Seidman of the [30:59] University of Virginia, Layla [31:01] Hudson of the University of [31:02] Arizona, and Mickey Turner of the [31:04] University of Southern California. [31:06] We began by asking about the [31:08] administration's request for [31:10] schools to create an environment [31:12] that doesn't, quote, punish, [31:14] belittle and even spark violence [31:16] against conservative ideas. [31:19] So belittling speech is obviously [31:21] not something that any university [31:23] would want. [31:24] However, as a state [31:26] university, we are required [31:28] to abide by the Constitution's [31:30] right to limit the free speech [31:32] of faculty, staff, or students. [31:34] And so while a private university [31:36] could decide to limit the free [31:38] speech of faculty, staff, or [31:40] students if that university [31:42] decided to, as a state [31:44] institution, nobody can require [31:46] the University of Virginia to [31:48] limit the free speech or any [31:50] other constitutional right of [31:52] faculty, staff, or students. [31:54] So Professor Hudson and [31:56] Professor Turner, how do you all [31:57] think your university is going to interpret that kind of guidance? [32:00] Do you think, first of all, that that is happening [32:02] on your campuses? And then [32:04] how is that supposed to be [32:06] regulated with this federal mandate? [32:08] I am on a task force, [32:10] a provost task force for academic [32:12] freedom. Academic freedom [32:14] and freedom of speech are two different things. [32:16] But what we're working [32:18] toward is to [32:20] you know, find that common [32:22] ground between [32:24] academic freedom, what [32:26] professors and students can or cannot [32:28] do in the classroom. And I [32:30] don't think that this initiative [32:32] will happen at [32:34] USC. I can't [32:36] see a [32:38] situation where we would [32:40] want to limit [32:42] what we say, how we say it, and [32:44] what we do as a university. [32:46] Professor Hudson, [32:48] can you go back to this idea [32:50] that is being introduced [32:52] here, that in the view of the [32:54] Trump administration, this is [32:56] actually a problem that needs to be fixed, [32:58] that there is a belittling [33:00] or violence against conservative ideas [33:02] on university campuses? [33:06] Well, I would push back against that. [33:08] Again, as a public [33:10] research university, [33:12] we are [33:14] a open [33:16] marketplace, if you [33:18] will, of [33:20] ideas. So you're going to hear [33:22] all kinds of speech. We have [33:24] institutional rules that prevent [33:26] harassment and certainly [33:28] violence. But in [33:30] terms of trying to regulate [33:32] the speech, that indeed [33:34] will violate not only [33:36] the academic freedom that makes our [33:38] universities great, but [33:40] the constitutional rights [33:42] of the university [33:44] community. So [33:46] I think that [33:48] again, [33:50] this will require a lot [33:52] more discussion [33:54] and indeed resistance. And I've been [33:56] very heartened, both on our campus [33:58] and across the country, to see people [34:00] rising up against anything [34:02] that would silence any [34:04] voices. But in terms [34:06] of the specific accusation that [34:08] there is a problem of [34:10] belittling and sparking violence [34:12] against conservative ideas, [34:14] do any of you object [34:16] to trying to counter that? Or is it that [34:18] none of you believe that that's actually even [34:20] a real problem? The University of [34:22] Virginia has taken [34:24] the ability of [34:26] people to cordially [34:28] speak to each other [34:31] with courtesy, but differing [34:33] opinions very seriously. And we have a number [34:35] of initiatives on grounds [34:37] to try to advance that. [34:39] So we definitely think it's something [34:41] important, and we want to make sure [34:43] that that isn't happening [34:45] on our campuses. I don't think [34:47] it's happening to the extent that [34:49] it gets reported. But [34:51] the thing that's really important [34:53] is that each university should determine [34:55] how [34:57] those are implemented on their universities, [34:59] what their issues are, [35:01] and have the decentralized decisions [35:03] making ability to decide [35:05] whether their university has an issue [35:07] and how to deal with that. [35:09] Professor Hudson, you were [35:11] talking about the open marketplace of ideas [35:13] here, and that is [35:15] referring to the language in the compact [35:17] that talks about the need to foster [35:19] a vibrant marketplace of ideas. [35:21] But in these terms, [35:23] it's suggesting that that doesn't exist. [35:25] That the overwhelming [35:27] persuasion [35:29] of the professors on campus are liberal. [35:31] That seems to be the accusation here. [35:33] Do you deny that that is an issue? [35:36] Well, I don't think it's an issue [35:38] that the federal government needs [35:40] to weigh in on, or any other [35:42] level of government. [35:44] Indeed, we have traditions, [35:46] we have understandings, [35:48] we have an ironclad [35:50] commitment to the principles [35:52] of free speech that mean [35:54] that any systematic or [35:56] chronic silencing of [35:58] any [36:00] individual's voice [36:02] or perspective [36:04] would immediately be [36:07] identified [36:09] and rectified by more [36:11] speech, not by [36:13] government intervention. [36:15] So I'm very comfortable that we can continue [36:17] to improve climate on campus, [36:19] but the act [36:21] of introducing government regulation [36:23] into that absolutely [36:25] undermines and sabotages [36:27] that project. [36:29] Professor Seidman, in terms of [36:31] where the Trump administration's [36:33] compact came from, there were [36:35] a lot of influences, but one of them, [36:37] according to the man himself, [36:39] is billionaire [36:41] Mark Rowan, the CEO of [36:43] Apollo Global Management. And he said [36:45] he helped write the compact [36:47] because without government involvement, [36:49] reform at universities will be difficult, [36:51] he argues. He says [36:53] there have been government mandates [36:55] on things like diversity, on discrimination, [36:57] and student discipline, [36:59] so why view these as any different? [37:01] Why is he wrong? [37:03] We were talking about academic freedom, [37:05] and I think in our ability [37:07] to search for the truth in research, [37:09] we also have responsibilities [37:11] in the classroom that are [37:13] different than you would experience [37:15] in a corporate setting. [37:17] And so I read [37:19] the compact differently than he does. [37:21] I think the thing that [37:23] I struggle with the most about the compact [37:25] is the idea that [37:27] it rewards loyalty [37:29] as opposed to [37:31] focusing on advancement of the truth. [37:33] As a cancer survivor, I want [37:35] federal research funds [37:37] to go to the universities [37:39] and the professors [37:41] who have the best ideas to [37:43] cure cancer. That's the [37:45] way to advance knowledge. And academics, [37:47] that's really, we are truth seekers. [37:49] The compact says truth seeking [37:51] is a core foundation [37:53] of institutions of higher education, [37:55] and I completely agree with that [37:57] portion of the compact. [37:59] It's just the implementation of that [38:01] truth seeking that I think we differ on. [38:03] So the compact says that [38:05] if this proposal is not [38:07] signed onto by the university, [38:09] they may choose to forgo [38:11] federal benefits. If you do [38:13] sign on, there's a chance of increased [38:15] funding and federal partnerships. [38:17] So it's not explicitly threatened, [38:19] but it's strongly [38:21] suggested that that would be [38:23] the consequence. That's how [38:25] the university understands it? [38:28] That's how I believe most faculty [38:30] understand it that I have heard from. [38:32] Something interesting [38:34] is that even faculty who [38:36] have grants have [38:38] reached out to me and said [38:40] we want the grants [38:42] to go to the places [38:44] that have the best ideas. [38:46] We don't want to have special treatment. [38:48] Faculty are truth seekers [38:50] and so we don't want [38:52] special benefits. Even if that means [38:54] that our university [38:56] is not favored because others [38:58] do sign on, we all want [39:00] the best ideas to be advanced. [39:02] On the state government [39:04] front, there's also pressure. [39:06] In Virginia and in California. [39:08] In Virginia, Democrats [39:10] in the state senate wrote if UVA [39:12] signs this thing, there will be significant [39:14] consequences in future budget cycles. [39:16] Out in California, [39:18] Professor Turner, [39:20] Governor Newsom vowed to cut off billions [39:22] in state funding if anyone [39:24] signs this thing. [39:26] And the White House says that's like [39:28] California endorsing discrimination, [39:30] tuition hikes, and confronting speech [39:32] with violence. If you're [39:34] between those two pressure points, [39:36] what do you do? [39:38] That's a great question because [39:40] I really have complete [39:42] empathy for our [39:44] college presidents who have to deal with [39:46] the situation right now because they are kind of [39:48] stuck between a rock and a hard place [39:50] because of all this [39:52] political ping pong. [39:54] Professor Seidman, [39:56] on the pressure from the Democrats [39:58] in the state of Virginia, [40:00] is that helping or is that hurting? [40:02] Pressure from both sides [40:05] definitely feels like [40:07] it. I think the difference [40:09] between the pressure from the state level [40:11] and the pressure from the federal level [40:13] is the state funds that come from the university [40:15] are the universities [40:17] to determine how they use. [40:19] The federal funds that we get [40:21] are either for students [40:23] for financial aid or [40:25] are for specific grants. [40:27] So the threats to remove funding [40:29] are a little bit different [40:31] in that regard. [40:33] Professor Turner, one of the [40:35] things that got a lot of attention [40:37] from both parties during [40:39] the campaign was also just the high cost [40:41] of college and university tuition right now. [40:43] USC is the [40:45] highest tuition of any private [40:47] university in this country. [40:49] We were looking at it before and I was [40:51] floored. It costs $75,000 a year [40:53] in tuition, gets close to [40:55] $99,000 a year, inclusive [40:57] of expenses. There are a lot [40:59] of parents who would hear, oh, [41:01] a five-year freeze in tuition and be glad [41:03] that it went into effect. [41:06] Exactly. That's one of the [41:08] components I'm in agreement with [41:10] about the [41:12] freeze on tuition. [41:14] But it also wants to cap the number of international [41:16] students that you have, which would impact [41:18] USC because you're above that 15% [41:20] threshold. [41:22] Does one premise fight the other? [41:24] Absolutely. Can you bring the cost down [41:26] if you cut out the university students who are [41:28] paying full boat coming from [41:30] overseas? Not at all. [41:33] Not at all. We would not be able [41:35] to do that because [41:37] they [41:39] essentially come with cash in hand. [41:41] And not only that do they [41:43] add to the financial pot, but [41:45] they also add to the collective [41:47] perspective. And so we want [41:49] those students there from [41:51] every country. I also want to bring [41:54] up one of the things that was raised here [41:56] and that is we know the [41:58] Supreme Court struck down race-based admissions. [42:00] One of the first points in this compact [42:02] addresses the issue of preferential [42:04] treatment as they refer to it [42:06] based on identity. They list [42:08] sex, nationality, gender, religion, race, [42:10] or political views. Professor Turner, [42:12] you work on recruitment, I understand. [42:14] How does this impact [42:16] recruiting students? [42:18] If that goes into effect, that's going to [42:20] affect the way I do things, but [42:22] I don't think that [42:24] it's going to have a huge [42:26] impact on the way [42:28] USC really does things. [42:30] We [42:32] actively recruit [42:35] students from all walks of life, [42:37] of all races. [42:39] I don't think that we [42:41] should stop that because again, [42:43] we're thinking about these students, [42:45] we're thinking about their growth [42:47] and how they're going to go out [42:49] into the world and change this world [42:51] for the better. And in order [42:53] to do that, they need to [42:55] engage with different types of people [42:57] with different cultures. And so [42:59] hopefully this won't [43:01] have that impact [43:03] on our school because [43:05] we really can't [43:07] afford to have that happen. [43:09] Professor Seidman, the University of Virginia's [43:11] is forced to resign because of a [43:13] Department of Justice investigation [43:15] related to DEI [43:17] commitments. Do you get any [43:19] indication that the [43:21] federal pressure on UVA is [43:23] going to go away? [43:26] Two of our open investigations [43:28] with the Department of Justice that related [43:30] to admissions around [43:32] DEI have been closed, so [43:34] that is good news. [43:36] And those were closed [43:38] based on information we provided [43:40] that apparently satisfied [43:42] the concerns about race [43:44] being used in admission. I think [43:46] this particular item of the compact [43:48] would impact UVA. [43:50] UVA has always had a very [43:52] holistic approach to admissions. [43:54] We find talent to be [43:56] much broader than just test scores [43:58] and grades. [44:00] Since we spoke with the three professors, [44:03] USC and the University of [44:05] Virginia have rejected the compact. [44:07] No word yet from the University [44:09] of Arizona. We'll be right back. [44:11] For the first time in decades, [44:16] CBS News is no longer reporting [44:18] from inside the Pentagon. [44:20] Our reporters, alongside those [44:22] from dozens of networks, newspapers [44:24] and wire services, emptied out [44:26] their booths and workspaces [44:28] this past week. [44:30] The journalists exited, rather [44:33] than agree, to a 21-page list [44:35] of new restrictions which would [44:37] prevent them from soliciting [44:39] information that has not been [44:41] pre-approved by the government. [44:43] The Department of War, as the [44:45] current administration calls it, [44:47] has a $1 trillion budget and [44:49] employs 3 million military and [44:51] civilian employees. [44:53] CBS will continue to report from [44:55] outside the building, but journalists [44:57] will no longer have the day-to-day, [44:59] face-to-face contact with the [45:01] military that helps the public [45:03] understand what U.S. troops [45:05] are facing. Secretary Hegseth [45:08] once promised the most transparent [45:10] administration ever. [45:12] But as one former defense official [45:14] told us, the American [45:16] people are going to know a lot less. [45:18] About what their Department of [45:20] War is doing. [45:23] That's it for us today. Thank you [45:25] for watching. Until next week. [45:27] For Face the Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan.