Rep. Thomas Massie, Rep. Ro Khanna and more

[0:01] I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington, and this week on Face the Nation, the long-awaited [0:06] release of the Epstein files. And will that good news about inflation improve America's [0:11] views about President Trump's handling of the economy? [0:14] President Trump is wrapping up the year with a tighter focus on the economy and [0:19] affordability, both in the Oval Office and on the midterms campaign trail, boasting of [0:23] his 2025 accomplishments. [0:26] This is a far better term than it would have been had I done it the more traditional [0:31] way. It really is. It's a more powerful term. It's a more powerful term. And the [0:37] biggest news of all is yesterday it was announced that inflation is far lower than [0:42] anybody expected. I told you. [0:44] That's an exaggerated claim, but any sign of prices going lower is good news for [0:49] Americans. Our new CBS poll shows that half the country says Trump's policies are [0:54] making them financially worse off. We'll ask White House Chief Economic Advisor [0:58] Kevin Hassett about that and more. [1:01] Plus, a Biden-led poll. [1:02] A bipartisan conversation with the two members of Congress who pushed to pass the law [1:06] calling for the Epstein files to be made public. Has the Trump administration obeyed that [1:12] law? We'll talk with Kentucky Republican Thomas Massey and California Democrat Ro Khanna. [1:18] Finally, we'll talk with the head of UNICEF, Catherine Russell, about the children of [1:22] Sudan and Gaza. It's all just ahead on Face the Nation. [1:27] Good morning and welcome to Face the Nation. So far, there have been few surprises in the [1:47] last couple of weeks. We've had tens of thousands of documents related to the case against [1:50] convicted sex offender and accused sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein and his partner, convicted [1:56] child sex offender Ghislaine Maxwell. The Justice Department says that 1,200 names identified [2:01] as victims or their relatives were redacted, along with materials that could result in [2:06] their identification. Will the release of the documents satisfy Congress and the political [2:12] forces who lobbied for their disclosure? And much more importantly, will it satisfy the [2:16] survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and their families? [2:21] The two House members who pushed their colleagues into passing the bill to release these [2:26] documents, Republican Thomas Massey, who's in Garrison, Kentucky, and Democrat Ro Khanna, [2:30] who joins us this morning from Palo Alto, California. It's good to have both of you here. [2:36] I want to start with you, Congressman Massey, because in these past 48 hours, we have seen [2:41] the Justice Department acknowledge it's an incomplete release, but they have put out more [2:47] than 13,000 files. They say more will come. This isn't everything you asked for just [2:53] yet, but would you acknowledge that they are complying with the spirit, if not the intent [2:58] of your law? [3:01] No, they're flouting the spirit and the letter of the law. It's very troubling, the posture [3:06] that they've taken. And I won't be satisfied until the survivors are satisfied. You know, [3:11] I said in the hours leading up to this release that we will know if they are complying if [3:16] they implicate any of the other criminals. [3:19] How do you see the criminals that are involved and the suspects that are involved, the [3:22] witnesses, the victims themselves, have given to the FBI and they've never been mentioned? [3:30] Well, there are some disclosures in here that seem new. Congressman Khanna, the documents [3:36] confirm that the FBI received a complaint about Jeffrey Epstein back in 1996, but the [3:41] woman, whose name is Maria Farmer, who made that complaint, said federal officials failed [3:47] to follow up. She said the disclosure makes her feel redeemed. [3:51] And that this was one of the best days of her life to see these documents made public. [3:56] What action do you want taken around a case like this? [4:02] That was the single most important disclosure of what we got. I know Maria's sister. [4:07] She sounded the alarm in 1996. She complained to the FBI. The problem is that Epstein was [4:13] so connected with law enforcement and powerful politicians, the FBI did nothing for a decade. [4:18] Frankly, she deserves compensation. She deserves an explanation. [4:23] The other point is, Blanche was on this morning saying that Massey and I have a problem that [4:27] it's taking too long. [4:28] That's not the problem. [4:29] The problem is, this was a slap in the face of survivors. [4:33] What do they want? [4:34] They want to know who are the rich and powerful men who visited Epstein's rape island and [4:38] covered up the abuse. [4:39] And the key documents that our law basically said needed to be released, the 60-count indictment [4:45] that actually implicates a lot of these people and the prosecution memo were not released. [4:51] And it's not about the timeline. [4:53] It's about the selective concealment. [4:54] JUDY WOODRUFF Well, yet, right? [4:57] The deputy attorney general said there are more disclosures that will be made. [5:01] You believe that they will not release that particular part? [5:05] I mean, you did give them some leeway for redactions. [5:07] MARK SHIELDS Well, first of all, the redactions were excessive. [5:13] And even Harvard law professionals who have looked at that have said, you can't redact [5:17] internal communications. [5:19] You can't redact work force product. [5:21] And the courts are going to find that these were excessive. [5:23] But my point, and I'm sure Congressman Massey can elaborate, is that we want the files [5:30] out. [5:31] So, if our sounding the alarm on what is missing is going to help them get those files out, [5:37] fine. [5:38] But this shouldn't be a big document dump. [5:39] There's a pretty simple point. [5:41] Who raped these young girls? [5:42] Who covered it up? [5:43] And why are they getting away with it? [5:45] JUDY WOODRUFF So, you're saying specific things regarding the indictment. [5:48] Congressman Massey, I saw in a video that you posted, you had a very specific benchmark [5:53] of success here. [5:55] You said you know there are at least 20 men accused of sex crimes known to the FBI. [6:00] How do you know that number? [6:02] And do you know those names? [6:03] REP. [6:05] MARK SHIELDS Yeah, the survivors' lawyers have told me those numbers. [6:08] And they have described their professions in general. [6:11] But they have only given me one of those names. [6:13] And I mentioned that in a congressional hearing, Jess Staley. [6:16] So I searched these documents. [6:18] I didn't see Jess Staley's name, nor did I see 19 other names. [6:22] And here's why we shouldn't be optimistic. [6:24] That Blanche or Bondi are going to release these things. [6:28] They sent a six-page memo to Congress and said they cited preexisting laws as reasons [6:35] that they weren't going to follow our law. [6:37] For instance, our law requires them to release information regardless of embarrassment. [6:41] But they are trying to say that a previous law prevails when it doesn't. [6:45] Common sense says it doesn't. [6:47] The Privacy Act doesn't protect them from that. [6:49] And then, also, as Roe said, internal communications, those, they're using a FOIA system. [6:52] REP. [6:53] MARK SHIELDS Yes. [6:54] REP. [6:54] JENNIFER LORENZO That doesn't apply because our law already says they have to give us [6:58] internal communications. [6:59] REP. [7:00] JENNIFER LORENZO In terms of the gentleman there you referenced as accused, I mean, being [7:05] in the document doesn't necessarily prove criminal behavior, right? [7:10] And in terms of the redactions, what the deputy attorney general said is that they were abiding [7:17] by your law. [7:18] And also, a judge in New York had ordered them to listen to victims. [7:22] So they're claiming that information that they had intended to give us is not true. [7:23] REP. [7:24] MARK SHIELDS And the judge said that they had initially even published Friday they [7:26] had to pull down because they were trying to protect victims. [7:31] You don't sound convinced that they are abiding by this intent. [7:37] REP. [7:40] MARK SHIELDS No, they are not abiding. [7:41] And all three judges who released the grand jury material said that our law trumps the [7:47] prior law. [7:48] That's just common sense, law school 101. [7:50] Yet, Todd Blanch is using a different theory that wouldn't survive first contact with any [7:55] court. [7:56] Which is, he's trying to say that prior laws override our law. [7:59] That's not the way this works. [8:01] REP. [8:03] LISA DESJARDINS Okay. [8:04] What are you going to do about it to force them to comply? [8:06] Can you do anything? [8:07] REP. [8:10] MARK SHIELDS Oh, absolutely. [8:11] Look, people have talked about, and by the way, Todd Blanch is the face of this. [8:16] But it's really the attorney general's office, Pam Bondi, who is responsible. [8:20] And there are several ways to get at this. [8:23] Some take longer. [8:24] Some are shorter. [8:25] The quickest way, and I think the most expeditious way, to get justice in this case is to get [8:26] justice in this case. [8:27] REP. [8:28] MARK SHIELDS That's right. [8:28] REP. [8:29] REP. [8:29] MARK SHIELDS The easiest way to get justice for these victims is to bring inherent contempt [8:32] against Pam Bondi. [8:34] And that doesn't require going through the courts. [8:37] And give her, and basically Ro Khanna and I are talking about and drafting that right [8:43] now. [8:44] REP. [8:45] LISA DESJARDINS Okay. [8:46] Well, I mean, on another network this morning, Democratic Senator Tim Kaine said impeachment [8:49] or contempt, it is premature, Congressman Khanna. [8:54] And the deputy attorney general said bring it on. [8:57] They don't seem to be taking this very seriously. [8:59] If you just don't have the math in the Senate, including at least now this Democratic senator [9:04] not being convinced, doesn't that sort of show that you're at the limit of pressure? [9:08] REP. [9:11] TIM KAINE No. [9:12] We only need the House for inherent contempt. [9:13] And we're building a bipartisan coalition. [9:16] And it would fine Pam Bondi for every day that she's not releasing these documents. [9:20] I will tell you why I have talked to the survivors, why this is such a slap in the face. [9:25] One of the survivors said they released her name accidentally, but they still have not [9:29] released the FBI file. [9:31] They have not released the FBI file about the people who abused her at her request. [9:35] And the problem here is that there are rich and powerful people. [9:38] We all know this. [9:39] There are 1,200 victims. [9:40] There are rich and powerful people who either engaged in this abuse, covered it up, or were [9:44] on this island. [9:45] And what the American people want to know is, who are these people? [9:47] And instead of holding them accountable, Pam Bondi is breaking the law. [9:52] And this is the corrupt system, the Epstein class, that people are sick of. [9:55] So I believe we're going to get bipartisan support in holding her accountable, and a [10:00] committee of Congress should do it. [10:01] Congress should determine whether these redactions are justified or not. [10:04] It's sometime in January when you all come back, I assume, that that will happen. [10:09] I want to ask you, though, Congressman Khanna, there have been images released in the past [10:15] 48 hours. [10:16] Some of them include former President Bill Clinton. [10:19] There's at least one image of Donald Trump. [10:21] I should say neither man has been accused of any wrongdoing related to Epstein, though [10:26] they clearly knew him. [10:28] But since Friday's publication, we're showing the image here. [10:31] Now, one of the pictures was pulled down. [10:35] There were 15 images total that were then redacted from the DOJ website. [10:40] And it's kind of hard to see, but it's an open drawer with a photo of President Trump. [10:48] Why do you think that was pulled down? [10:51] Because the deputy attorney general says this was victims saying that their privacy or somehow [10:58] their integrity was being compromised by having that image published. [11:01] Well, I'm less concerned about that photo. [11:06] I don't know the facts. [11:07] My concern is the major documents that we know are out there that haven't been released. [11:12] The 60-count endowment that shows massive financial fraud and foreign interference, [11:18] the prosecution memo. [11:20] And look, they put out these Bill Clinton pictures. [11:23] Well, they're allegations that there are foreign governments that potentially were involved. [11:28] And that all needs to come out. [11:30] And it needs to come out in the indictments. [11:32] It needs to come out in the prosecution memos. [11:34] But the reality is they put out these pictures. [11:36] The pictures for Bill Clinton put it all out. [11:38] But don't distract from the fundamental issue, which is who are these powerful people who [11:43] would visited the rape island? [11:45] I mean, there are 1,200 victims. [11:46] It defies common sense that it was just Epstein and Maxwell. [11:50] And they're hiding something. [11:51] And you know why the American people are so upset? [11:52] My ex-account had MAGA supporters supporting me for the first time, saying, you know, [11:58] Pam Bondi whiffed, according to Susan Wiles. [12:01] She is breaking the law. [12:02] She needs to be held accountable. [12:03] You're referring to the Vanity Fair quote. [12:05] Yes. [12:06] That the chief of staff gave, saying, the whiffed. [12:09] And she said that Pam Bondi gave them binders full of nothingness. [12:14] And then when it came to the client list, she said it was on her desk. [12:17] There is no client list, quote, and it sure as hell wasn't on her desk. [12:21] Do you see that as an acknowledgment here, though, that the politics have overtaken the [12:25] substance? [12:28] No. [12:29] For us, it's about the survivors. [12:31] And if you look at Thomas Massey in my comments the morning of the release, we were giving [12:35] Blanche the benefit of the doubt. [12:37] We said... [12:38] It's not all they're fine. [12:40] Just get the information out. [12:42] It's when the survivors said that this is an insult, this is a slap in their face, that [12:47] we aren't getting the truth about who these men were on Rape Island, that we started sounding [12:52] the alarm. [12:53] And this is more documents of nothingness. [12:55] And I guess the question the American people have, even to me, is, is the system so corrupt? [13:01] Is the system so corrupt that Thomas Massey and you defy the odds, pass a bill through [13:06] a discharge petition? [13:07] Get the Senate. [13:08] Get the president to sign it. [13:10] And still, these rich and powerful people are being protected. [13:13] Who has this kind of hold on our government? [13:15] What are they hiding? [13:16] Why are they not releasing this? [13:19] Well, you want, what, people involved in those initial investigations down in Florida reexamined [13:25] and possibly prosecuted? [13:29] I want the information out, which was in that prosecution memo that Acosta disregarded, [13:35] that were in those indictments, that there were 60 counts against Epstein, only two counts [13:40] were prosecuted. [13:41] I want to know, who were these other people who were on the Epstein's Rape Island? [13:46] Who were the people who saw young girls being paraded around at parties, 13-, 14-, 15-year-olds, [13:51] and didn't say anything? [13:53] And why, why is it so hard when there's a law requiring these names to come out? [13:57] What we're seeing is survivors' names come out, but not the men who abused them. [14:01] And instead of, instead of holding elites accountable, Pam Bondi is breaking the law. [14:06] Well, we will see when you gentlemen come back to work sometime in January, what your [14:11] next measures are. [14:12] It sounds like you've made it clear you're moving action against the Attorney General. [14:17] Thank you both for your reaction today. [14:20] Face the Nation will be back in a minute. [14:21] Stay with us. [14:27] We turn now to the economy, and our Executive Director of Elections and Surveys, Anthony [14:31] Salvato. [14:32] Good morning. [14:33] Good to have you here. [14:34] Good morning. [14:35] So, the president was speaking throughout the past week about the economy, even in this [14:41] Oval Office address. [14:43] He's trying to reframe public perception of what's going on. [14:46] We know sentiment has been low for years now. [14:50] Do people really expect that a president can fix everything in the first year? [14:54] So let me start with that big context, because it's so important. [14:56] Yes, all through 2025, people have said they thought the economy was bad. [15:00] When you talk about going back years, this goes back to before the pandemic was the last [15:05] time that a majority of Americans said the economy was good. [15:09] So we are in this long, and a lot of people think, this structural change that the economy [15:13] has gone through. [15:14] Things got more expensive. [15:16] Things are coming out of the pandemic, and people still are trying to adjust to those [15:20] higher costs. [15:21] That's what underpins all those sentiments. [15:23] Now, the political part of this is, coming into 2025, more people did think that Donald [15:29] Trump would fix it. [15:31] The expectations were high. [15:32] We measured that back in January. [15:35] Right now, you have this less than one in five that feel like his policies have made [15:39] them financially better off, and even when you ask people then to look ahead to 2026, [15:44] it's a little bit better. [15:46] But it's not overwhelming that people think his policies will make them better off. [15:50] So there's this real disconnect there, and if you come back to the description of the [15:54] economy, people right now, I ask them to just grade it, and they give it a C, a D, or even [16:01] worse, which is different than a lot of the times the way the administration has described [16:05] the economy. [16:06] That sets up the fundamental challenge. [16:08] I think you saw that this week for him in the address. [16:11] So it's not a new tactic for a current president to blame the last one for all the [16:16] problems of today, but we checked, and in that primetime address, the president said [16:21] it was Biden's name, Biden's fault, about seven times. [16:26] Does the public buy that? [16:28] Well, when you pick up on what we just talked about, this long-term trend, the president [16:33] did inherit an economy where people thought, a majority of people thought it was bad. [16:37] At the same time, right now, more people say the current economy is Donald Trump's responsibility. [16:44] He's the one that's on his watch right now. [16:46] He said that. [16:47] He had been declining on his handling of the economy throughout the year. [16:51] That's leveled off now in recent weeks. [16:54] And one thing you do find is, yes, there's this disconnect. [16:58] People think he is describing it as better than it really is. [17:02] Maybe there's political credit to be gained by starting to address what people are feeling. [17:07] So one thing we know is that health care costs for both private insurance users and government [17:12] insurance users is going to be up. [17:15] Congress is still debating what to do. [17:16] Congress is still debating what to do about the Obamacare Act. [17:18] But how much public focus is there on this issue? [17:22] So if you look at the most immediate part of that argument, a big majority thinks that [17:26] Congress should extend those added subsidies. [17:30] But in the wider context of this, when we ask people, how do you feel about trying to [17:35] afford all these various aspects, these basics, cost of living, health care is one of the [17:40] ones that stands out, that a lot of people say they have trouble affording. [17:44] And I think you're picking that up in the general sense. [17:45] And I think you're picking that up in the general sense. [17:46] And I think you're picking that up in the general sentiment of how people process health [17:49] care, health insurance costs as well. [17:51] It's a very important part, obviously, of people's budgets, but also one that they tell [17:56] us that concerns them a whole lot. [17:59] So one of the structural changes you sort of alluded to earlier is the change coming [18:04] from artificial intelligence. [18:06] You were looking at this. [18:07] We've seen a lot of discussion about how it's reshaping things. [18:12] Are Americans sort of digesting that? [18:13] How do they understand it? [18:15] Yeah. [18:16] We've been following this all year because, right, it's driving stock market gains. [18:19] There's a lot of investment in it as well. [18:22] Right now, you see a lot of uncertainty from the public about it. [18:25] On one hand, when I ask people, what parts of the economic sectors are you most or least [18:30] optimistic about, technology stands out as people being optimistic about it in general. [18:35] But with regard to AI in particular, more people tell us they think it's going to decrease [18:40] jobs than increase them. [18:43] And the number of corporations forecasting a lot of spending on technology. [18:46] And the new year. [18:47] What do all these dynamics mean politically for the midterm races in 2026? [18:53] So let me start with the president, because one thing I asked heading into 2026, is there [18:58] anything that the president could do to change your mind about it? [19:01] And there are a substantial number of people that say yes. [19:04] Perhaps not surprisingly, when I follow and ask, well, what would that be about? [19:08] They say it's the economy. [19:09] The reason that's important is in the dynamic here, a president is always key. [19:14] He's not on the ballot, but he's always on people's minds. [19:15] He's always on people's minds. [19:16] He's always on people's minds. [19:17] And so I think that's the first thing, is to see if there's any real impact in the [19:18] future. [19:19] I think there is. [19:20] I think that's the first thing, is to see if there's any real impact in the future. [19:21] And so that's the first thing to watch. [19:22] But the other one, if you're at your holiday gathering and people are arguing about what's [19:23] going to happen, who's going to win, I think it's too far to know for certain. [19:26] But at the same time, we can already see the conditions and the playing field that people [19:31] will be fighting on. [19:33] And that's clearly cost of living. [19:35] It's clearly health care, among other things. [19:37] And it's the race to define how people evaluate it. [19:41] Anthony Salvato, thank you for this. [19:43] Thank you. [19:44] We'll be right back. [19:48] Now to the director of the White House National Economic Council, Kevin Hassek. [19:52] Good morning to you. [19:54] Good morning. [19:55] We took you literally. [19:56] You said last Sunday you'd come back and talk to us about that household survey, the jobs picture. [20:01] You said you really trust it. [20:03] That report came out. [20:04] It showed America added 64,000 jobs with unemployment ticking up to 4.6 percent. [20:10] But we've seen analysis, including from the top economist at U.S. Navy Federal, [20:15] saying the U.S. is in a, quote, hiring recession. [20:18] Very few jobs being added since the spring, and wage gains are slowing. [20:23] Are we in a hiring recession? [20:26] No, I don't think so. [20:27] I think that basically the number was about what the market expected. [20:32] It was a number that was less than 100, which is a little bit lower than you'd like. [20:38] But then after that, we got the consumer price index numbers, which were really amazing. [20:43] And so if you look at the three-month moving [20:45] average, we're at about 4.5 percent. [20:45] If you look at the moving average of core consumer prices, then they're running at an [20:48] annual rate of about 1.6 percent, way below the Fed's target. [20:52] And my old friend all the way back to grad school, Austin Goolsbee, is now one of the [20:56] Fed governors voting on interest rates, conceded that they should have cut rates [21:00] faster and that he's going to do so in the future because of this inflation number. [21:04] He was one of the dissenters when the Fed's decision came out. [21:07] But when it comes to inflation, as you just referred to, that number showed [21:12] there was still a rise in inflation. [21:14] It was just a number that was going up. [21:15] It was just at a slower pace than expected. [21:17] If you pull out energy and pull out food, it rose at the slowest pace since 2021, up [21:24] 2.6 percent in November from a year ago. [21:26] But then there are quirks in here because it looks like the prices weren't gathered [21:31] until Thanksgiving discounts kicked in. [21:33] There was no increase reflected in terms of housing costs. [21:38] Why do you trust the data now when you haven't in the past? [21:42] Oh, you know, I think that you're right to always be suspicious about data. [21:46] And it'll look a lot cleaner when we get a full survey, which we didn't have this time. [21:51] But, you know, two of the three numbers, if we go back to the three month moving average, [21:54] we're fine. And so I think that the error band around the 1.6 percent inflation, [22:01] about that's the pace that's running, is probably pretty tight. [22:05] Surely there'll be some revisions, but I think the numbers are about right. [22:09] And I usually, Margaret, don't like to go to year over year when we're talking about [22:14] what's going on with inflation, because that includes a lot. [22:16] High inflation, Biden months in the back and fewer and fewer as we get further into the year. [22:23] But I think that the trajectory right now is best seen by the three month moving average. [22:27] And that's below two, below the Fed target. [22:29] So it means the Fed, as Austin Goolsbee said, has plenty of room to cut rates. [22:34] But the president said inflation has stopped. [22:35] You'd acknowledge that's an exaggeration. [22:38] Well, I guess the inflation being above the target has stopped for sure. [22:43] And so but inflation is not zero also. [22:46] That's fair. [22:47] OK, he did not give those caveats. [22:48] He just said inflation has stopped. [22:50] Kevin Hassett, stay with us. [22:51] I've got to take a quick break and I want to talk about the rest of what we've learned. [22:54] Stay with us. [22:58] Welcome back to Face the Nation. [23:00] And we continue our conversation now with the director of the White House National Economic [23:04] Council, Kevin Hassett. [23:07] This past week, we saw the president announce further changes to immigration policy. [23:12] He halted diversity visas. [23:13] There are now 39 countries on this travel ban or restricted list. [23:17] This is in addition to all the deportations. [23:20] And we see the increase in the number of deportations and revocations of asylum. [23:25] The business community has made clear that the constant changes make it hard for them to plan, [23:32] particularly in the small business category. [23:34] They're concerned about a labor shortage. [23:36] And we've seen the U.S. [23:37] workforce lose more than 1 million foreign born workers in the past year. [23:42] Are you hearing those concerns from the business community? [23:46] Actually, it's the opposite. [23:47] So. [23:48] So in the sense that native born workers are up more than 2 million. [23:50] What we have seen is that, as foreign-born workers, and a lot of them, don't forget, [23:55] were illegal immigrants that have been deported, that, when foreign-born workers depart, then [24:01] it creates jobs for people who are native-born. [24:04] The interesting thing, too, which I would like to remind everybody, is that native-born [24:08] Americans aren't necessarily racially distinct at all. [24:12] And so the majority of the native-born jobs that have been created over the last year [24:16] are Hispanic-Americans. [24:18] It's just basically taking folks that are legally in the country and getting the jobs [24:23] to them, is what we see in the data. [24:24] LISA DESJARDINS Well, the Associated General Contractors of America didn't say they're [24:28] replacing those workers easily. [24:30] They're saying they're having a hard time doing that, and issued a statement saying [24:34] it's a significant challenge, urging the administration to look at ways to expand the construction [24:39] work force and allow more people to lawfully enter the country. [24:43] DAVID BROOKS Right. [24:45] Well, one of the things we're seeing, this is exactly how markets work, right? [24:48] So construction work. [24:49] So construction workers, their salaries this year have gone up by $3,300 on average, according [24:54] to the latest report. [24:55] LISA DESJARDINS Because of scarcity. [24:56] DAVID BROOKS Well, but when the price goes up, then people say, oh, I should go. [25:01] And I used to be a construction worker, but now I'm doing something else. [25:03] I should go back to construction work, because the salaries are so high. [25:06] And so we're seeing a lot of that go on. [25:08] And so we're very bullish on construction and really happy to see that wages are going [25:12] way back up. [25:13] And so instead of having, you know, basically illegal people come in and take jobs away [25:19] from native-born Americans at low wages, we're seeing people re-enter the labor force at [25:23] high wages. [25:24] LISA DESJARDINS But to be clear, from the business community, part of the question is, [25:28] what is legal? [25:29] Because you're changing the definition and pulling back asylum from some groups. [25:36] So there's confusion at the constant change in policy. [25:39] Will there be clarity in the new year? [25:41] DAVID BROOKS Oh, there will definitely be clarity in the new year. [25:44] And I think there's clarity now that what we have done is that we have made it so that [25:48] people who are legally residents of the country and legally allowed to work, that they're, [25:54] you know, basically top of the list when you're looking for somebody to hire. [25:57] LISA DESJARDINS Let me ask you a bit about tariffs. [26:02] Since as far back as July, we have heard the president refer to this idea of $2,000 checks [26:08] being given out to households. [26:10] The Treasury secretary said this would go to households making less than $100,000. [26:16] Should Americans plan to receive those checks in 2026? [26:18] DAVID BROOKS That's going to depend on what happens with Congress. [26:22] Congress is going to have to send those money to those peoples. [26:26] But the thing we can say is that, since July, we have had a lot of positive news about the [26:31] economy. [26:32] We have had a couple of quarters of almost 4 percent growth. [26:34] We have got a big government surplus actually running for a few months in a row. [26:39] The deficit relative to last year is down by $600 billion. [26:43] And so, in the summer, I wasn't so sure that there was space for a check like that. [26:47] But now I'm pretty sure that there is. [26:48] And so I would expect that, in the new year, the president will bring forth a proposal [26:52] to Congress to make that happen. [26:53] LISA DESJARDINS So a new proposal for these, it's not necessarily coming from existing [27:00] tariff revenue? [27:01] DAVID BROOKS Well, it could come from tariff revenue. [27:04] But in the end, we get taxes, we get tariffs, we get revenue from lots of places. [27:10] And then Congress decides how to spend those monies. [27:12] That's an appropriation. [27:13] And so this would have to be money that would be an appropriation. [27:16] LISA DESJARDINS So don't bank on it, in other words. [27:18] So are you projecting that, in the new year, certain tariffs will remain in place, or do [27:24] you see some of them going away? [27:26] DAVID BROOKS I think that most of the tariffs that we've [27:30] passed this year have proven their mettle. [27:33] We've got still high growth, which people said we couldn't if we had tariffs. [27:36] We have reduction in the deficit, reduction in the trade deficit. [27:41] Imports from China are the lowest they've been since China entered the WTO. [27:45] So there's a lot of success to crow about in the tariff space. [27:48] But there are also things that we're hearing when we talk to people like trading partners [27:54] and companies that trade a lot in the U.S. [27:56] There are also things that maybe could be adjusted. [27:58] You saw that we decided to exempt coffee, for example, because we don't make a lot of [28:04] coffee in the U.S. [28:05] LISA DESJARDINS And coffee prices are up. [28:06] DAVID BROOKS And I think that if there's something that's [28:09] not made in the U.S. at all, that there's an appetite, and Jameson Greer is leading [28:14] the effort to study these matters, that there's an appetite to exempt things. [28:18] LISA DESJARDINS Right. [28:18] DAVID BROOKS Right. [28:18] If they're really not meant to be made in the U.S. because of climate or things like [28:23] that. [28:24] LISA DESJARDINS You've also got the Supreme Court decision [28:27] pending in terms of the specific IEPA, as they're called. [28:30] These are tariffs where the justification was citing fentanyl, Canadian crude, some [28:36] Chinese imports. [28:38] If the Supreme Court doesn't find in your favor, who gets the refund? [28:42] Is it the companies or is it the consumers? [28:44] How does that work? [28:46] DAVID BROOKS Yeah, we really expect the Supreme [28:48] Court. [28:48] The Supreme Court is going to find with us. [28:50] And I also think that if they didn't find with us, that it's going to be pretty unlikely [28:54] that they're going to call for widespread refunds because it would be an administrative [28:59] problem to get those refunds out to there. [29:02] But basically, whoever paid the tariff, like actually cut the check to buy the thing, would [29:08] be the person who would be getting the refund if there were one. [29:11] LISA DESJARDINS Doesn't the administration claim it was the [29:12] country that paid that? [29:14] You're saying the company. [29:15] DAVID BROOKS It would be like I'm not talking about the [29:19] incidents, right? [29:20] Like, so the incidents of the tariff. [29:22] So in the end, who pays the tariff depends on elasticities of supply and demand. [29:26] We know that China cut the price a lot so that the post-tariff price from Chinese goods [29:32] is about what it was before the tariff. [29:35] But the people who pay the tariff, if there is a refund, the people who actually paid [29:41] for the good, the importer in most cases, they're the ones who would be the first line [29:45] of defense for refunding the tariff. [29:46] But I really, really don't think that's going to happen. [29:49] It would be very complicated. [29:50] And then that person would be responsible for allocating the tariff refund to the appropriate [29:55] folks. [29:56] LISA DESJARDINS That sounds like a mess. [29:57] DAVID BROOKS Yes, it is a mess. [29:59] And that's why I think the Supreme Court wouldn't do it. [30:02] LISA DESJARDINS Well, we'll wait and see. [30:04] I want to quickly ask you about the oil market. [30:06] I asked you last Sunday about that decision to seize a tanker off the coast of Venezuela. [30:12] We saw yet another one over the weekend. [30:16] You said last Sunday it probably won't affect oil prices to be taking this oil. [30:20] You said last Sunday it probably won't affect oil prices to be taking this oil off the [30:25] black market. [30:26] Do you stand by that? [30:28] And was all that oil going to China? [30:29] DAVID BROOKS Yes. [30:30] I haven't been briefed on the latest. [30:31] I did see that this is another ship that was basically operating in the black market. [30:35] And so there's been a little bit of black market activity in the oil sector to go to [30:40] sanctioned countries and to get them some oil. [30:43] And they're getting that oil in order to avoid the reforms that we think would make the countries [30:49] a better place. [30:50] DAVID BROOKS Yes. [30:51] There's not a lot of oil compared to world supply. [30:53] And so I don't think that people need to be worried here in the U.S. that the prices are [30:56] going to go up because of these seizures of these ships. [30:59] There's just a couple of them. [31:00] And they were black market ships. [31:01] AMNA NAWAZ Were these sanctioned ships going to China? [31:03] DAVID BROOKS I'm not sure where they were going. [31:06] AMNA NAWAZ All right. [31:07] Kevin Hassett, thank you for your time. [31:09] KEVIN HASSETT Thank you. [31:10] AMNA NAWAZ Have a great holiday. [31:11] We will be right back. [31:17] AMNA NAWAZ You too. [31:18] AMNA NAWAZ UNICEF warns that more than 200 million children will require humanitarian [31:22] assistance in the coming year. [31:24] The largest crisis right now is social security. [31:26] In Sudan, Catherine Russell, UNICEF's executive director, is just back from Sudan and South [31:32] Sudan. [31:33] Good morning to you. [31:35] CATHERINE RUSSELL Good morning, Margaret. [31:36] How are you? [31:37] AMNA NAWAZ I'm well. [31:38] But you are – we want to draw attention here to those in need. [31:42] And I know Secretary of State Marco Rubio just on Friday called for a cessation of hostilities. [31:48] He said the U.S. is pushing for a humanitarian truce to allow some of these aid organizations [31:54] to operate. [31:56] But aid convoys have been struck on their way in, he also acknowledged. [32:01] What kind of challenges are you facing? [32:03] CATHERINE RUSSELL Well, Sudan is at this moment the largest humanitarian crisis we're facing. [32:10] And there are many things happening there. [32:11] One is that children in particular, but people are on the move. [32:15] Millions of people are moving around the country. [32:18] We have hunger, extreme hunger, including famine, designated in certain parts of the [32:23] country. [32:24] Including just horrific levels of violence – excuse me – including rape, including [32:31] against children. [32:32] UNICEF did a report about that about a year ago. [32:35] Even children under the age of one, I mean, absolutely terrible stories. [32:38] And a woman I met in Chad who had fled Darfur told me about the effort to sort of rape women [32:46] in front of their families and their communities, really trying to terrorize them and videotaping [32:51] it to humiliate them. [32:53] So the levels of violence. [32:54] CATHERINE RUSSELL Yes. [32:54] AMNA NAWAZ Thank you. [32:54] CATHERINE RUSSELL We have children out of school. [32:57] So the bottom line here is that the needs are enormous, the challenges are just absolutely [33:03] staggering. [33:04] And I think the world needs to come together. [33:07] In the short term, for sure, we need better humanitarian access. [33:10] We need to reach all of these communities. [33:12] That's hard to do right now. [33:14] But the truth is, Margaret, that what I heard from children across Sudan was the same thing, [33:19] which is I would say to them, what do you think about? [33:21] What do you want? [33:22] And they all said the same thing, which is we want peace. [33:24] I think they understand that the only answer here really is to solve the political problems [33:29] so that people can get back to some sort of a decent life. [33:32] CATHERINE RUSSELL Well, I just I don't want to let go what you just mentioned in [33:36] terms of why something like that would be done to children and to women in front of [33:42] their families. [33:43] The term genocide is used in Sudan. [33:46] What you are describing there in terms of treatment of gender-based violence, it sounds [33:51] like you are saying that is an attempt to destroy a society. [33:54] CATHERINE RUSSELL I mean, there are definitely atrocities that are intended to terrorize [34:00] communities, to force them to move, to scare them. [34:04] And they're effective strategies, for sure. [34:06] And I think the world needs to take a look. [34:09] I mean, Sudan, I know it seems so far away, and it is in many ways, but it is also a place [34:15] where children are suffering so enormously. [34:17] And I think especially now we're in the holiday season, you want to think about people being [34:23] with their families and all the rest of it. [34:24] CATHERINE RUSSELL Yeah. [34:25] I mean, children in so many places are not having those sort of luxuries. [34:29] They are really suffering. [34:31] And I think the world needs to pay attention to that. [34:33] And I commend Senator Rubio, Secretary Rubio now for pointing this out, because I think [34:39] the key thing here is that we need attention to the problem. [34:41] STEPHANIE SY Well, the U.S. has historically been the largest donor to UNICEF. [34:47] But we've seen tremendous cuts by this administration, including a $142 million clawback of [34:52] congressionally approved funds. [34:55] Secretary Rubio said no one died from these aid cuts. [34:59] And on Friday, he said he's very proud of the changes that were made in foreign aid. [35:03] Tell us what the reality is of the funding cuts. [35:05] CATHERINE RUSSELL Yeah, the funding cuts are challenging. [35:08] And I think the issue to understand is, it's not just the United States. [35:12] It's almost every donor to, certainly to UNICEF, but to the U.N. system broadly and to the [35:19] humanitarian sector. [35:20] And so when you add all of those together, the impacts are really dramatic, because it [35:25] means that, you know, what... [35:26] Financial support we do get, we have to spread now over more places and with less support [35:32] from donor countries. [35:34] So I think, you know, there are certainly, you know, there have been and will probably [35:38] always be catastrophes that we're trying to deal with, and children are suffering. [35:42] The United States has always proudly led, I think, on humanitarian response and on helping [35:48] children. [35:49] And, you know, we're hopeful that some of the money that has been taken back will be [35:53] restored to us. [35:54] We continue to work with the State Department. [35:56] There are efforts to fund a lot of the humanitarian and sort of life-saving work that we do. [36:01] But really, you know, the needs around the world are just absolutely enormous. [36:05] And it's the United States and other donors who have to come in behind that, along with [36:08] the private sector, I have to add. [36:10] That is also important. [36:12] And I should point out that the U.S. is one of the largest foreign aid donors to South [36:16] Sudan, but that foreign aid is also under threat at this moment because of the government [36:22] not complying with what the U.S. is demanding. [36:25] Let me quickly... [36:26] That is a challenge. [36:27] I was just there, too. [36:28] And that is, you know, the government there needs to do a better job. [36:32] Quickly, before I let you go, Gaza, how are things improving? [36:35] Well, again, I would say thanks to the ceasefire, and the administration here was [36:41] critical on doing that, things have gotten a bit better. [36:44] We are able to move around better. [36:46] But, you know, there's tremendous misery. [36:48] The challenges remain. [36:50] We have a lot of work that needs to get done. [36:51] I mean, you've seen all of the images, the destruction. [36:54] You know, we still have serious levels of poverty. [36:56] You know, levels of malnutrition. [36:58] We are trying to get shelter in place. [37:00] You know, there's rain and just misery for children all around. [37:04] So I think, you know, I would say there definitely is progress with the ceasefire, God willing, [37:10] that holds. [37:11] And then we can continue to get more and more aid in there. [37:14] God willing, that holds, as you say. [37:17] Catherine Russell, thank you for your time today. [37:19] Thanks. [37:20] Thanks so much. [37:21] We'll be back in a moment. [37:25] One of the highlights for Catholics in the U.S. this year was the selection of an American [37:29] pope, Pope Leo. [37:30] We spoke Friday to the new head of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Archbishop [37:36] Paul Coakley. [37:37] Father, I want to ask you about this role you have at the head of the Conference of [37:42] Bishops. [37:43] Last month, there was this urgent message. [37:45] It was a very rare statement addressing concern for the evolving situation impacting migrants. [37:52] And the language was pretty sharp in it, quote, We oppose the indiscriminate mass deportation [37:58] of people. [37:59] We pray for an end to dehumanizing rhetoric. [38:00] And violence, whether directed at immigrants or at law enforcement. [38:06] What are bishops that you talk to seeing in parishes all around the country? [38:11] What triggered this? [38:12] I think it varies from place to place, for sure. [38:17] So in communities with a more dense migrant population, there's a great deal of fear and [38:22] uncertainty, anxiety, because of the level of rhetoric that is being used. [38:27] And I think that's a very important issue. [38:28] I think that's a very important issue. [38:29] I think that's a very important issue. [38:30] I think that's a very important issue. [38:31] I think that's a very important issue. [38:32] And I think that's a very important issue. [38:33] I think that's a very important issue. [38:34] I think that's a very important issue. [38:35] And I think that's a very important issue that is often employed when addressing issues [38:36] around migration and the threats of deportation. [38:41] So there's a lot of anxiety. [38:44] So our pastors are trying to accompany people, walk with people, reassure people. [38:50] And that's the message of the church, and that was the reason for our special message [38:55] in November, that we're with you, we hear you, we're aware of your suffering and your [39:00] fears. [39:01] And we fully intend to accompany you during this difficult time. [39:06] So, I know there have been bishops in places like Charlotte, in parts of California, who [39:13] have formally granted permission, or dispensation is the word used, for people to skip Sunday [39:19] Mass if they're afraid they could be targeted by ICE. [39:23] Are you actually seeing a decline in the number of people attending Mass because they're afraid [39:28] they'll be arrested? [39:28] We are not seeing that here in Oklahoma, and I haven't heard it reported widely from my [39:36] brother bishops, so I know that that is the case in some places, but I don't think it's [39:42] as common, at least here locally or in places that I have personal contact with. [39:49] There's an anxiety, there's a fear, but I don't think it's kept people away in great [39:54] numbers. [39:56] Well, this video that you released really got along. [39:59] It got a lot of attention. [40:00] It certainly got ours. [40:01] And it mentioned being troubled by threats against the sanctity of houses of worship, [40:06] as well as hospitals and schools. [40:07] You know, I spoke to the vice president, J.D. Vance, last year and asked him about this [40:12] change in policy that would allow for ICE to enter churches and schools, and he really [40:17] pushed back hard. [40:18] He says that the Catholic Church receives funds to help resettle immigrants, thus they [40:23] are motivated by financial and not humanitarian reasons. [40:27] Have you had any kind of conversation? [40:29] Have you had any kind of conversation with the Trump administration, with the vice president [40:32] to explain what it is you're trying to say? [40:35] I have not had any personal conversations at this point with either the president or [40:41] the vice president, so I look forward to engaging with them over matters of mutual concern. [40:47] And certainly, undoubtedly, the question of immigration is going to come up. [40:52] I think we have opportunities to work together. [40:57] We have opportunities to speak frankly with one another. [41:01] So, I will look forward to that in the near future. [41:05] Well, the vice president calls himself a devout Catholic, which is also why I ask. [41:10] I mean, what do you say to Catholics like him who argue that these hardline immigration [41:15] policies have had a result that they sought, that the end justifies the means? [41:21] I don't think we can ever say that the end justifies the means. [41:25] We have to treat everyone with respect, respecting the human dignity. [41:31] Every person, there's no conflict necessarily between advocating for safe and secure borders [41:38] and treating people with respect and dignity. [41:40] We always have to treat people with dignity, God-given dignity. [41:44] The state doesn't award it, and the state can't take it away. [41:49] So it's from the creator. [41:51] So I think as Christians, as believers, that's kind of a foundational bedrock thing for us, [42:00] that people are to be respected. [42:01] And people are to be respected and treated with dignity, whether they are documented [42:06] or undocumented, whether they are here legally or illegally, they don't forfeit their human [42:11] dignity. [42:12] Well, what is it that you think is causing that to be an issue right now? [42:17] Why do you think that there is a loss of dignity? [42:19] Are there specific policies that you are thinking of when you say that? [42:23] Well, not necessarily. [42:25] I mean, just to treat people with respect, to afford them due process. [42:31] Yeah. [42:33] I mean, the deportations that are happening around the country, it's instilling, as I [42:43] said, fear in a rather widespread manner. [42:47] So I think that's something that concerns us all, that people have a right to live in [42:54] security and without fear of random deportations. [43:00] Yeah. [43:01] Yeah. [43:02] Yeah. [43:03] Yeah. [43:03] We're believers, of course, in due process. [43:05] We have provisions in law that award due process to everyone. [43:12] So that's what we are wanting to emphasize. [43:17] What would you advise others, other people of faith, to do for these immigrants? [43:23] Well, we are a nation of immigrants ourselves. [43:26] So I think that's something that we as Americans need to always come back to. [43:30] We are founded upon the immigrant experience. [43:33] So I think that's something that we as Americans need to always come back to. [43:34] We are founded upon the immigrant experience. [43:35] So I think that's something that we as Americans need to always come back to. [43:36] We are founded upon the immigrant experience. [43:37] So I think that's something that we as Americans need to always come back to. [43:38] But I think we need to be generous in welcoming immigrants. [43:39] I think we need to be generous in welcoming immigrants. [43:40] We certainly have a right and a duty to respect borders of our nation, and I would say, remind [43:51] all of us that we have a right and a duty to respect sovereign borders of a state, but [43:57] we also have a responsibility to welcome migrants. [44:01] This is kind of a fundamental principle in Catholic social teaching. [44:05] Right? [44:05] Right. [44:05] Right. [44:05] regarding immigration and migration. [44:09] People have a right to remain in their homeland, but they also ought to be allowed to migrate [44:17] when conditions in their homeland are unsafe and necessitate moving to a place where they [44:24] can find peace and security. [44:26] LISA DESJARDINS Archbishop Paul Coakley of Oklahoma City, [44:30] thank you for your time today. [44:31] PAUL COAKLEY, Thank you. [44:32] Thank you very much. [44:34] LISA DESJARDINS And we will be right back. [44:38] LISA DESJARDINS That's it for us today. [44:40] We want to wish all our viewers a very happy holiday season and also want to give a big [44:45] thank you to Washington Bureau managing editor Arden Farhi and justice reporter Jake Rosen [44:50] for all their work and their team's help sorting through the Epstein files. [44:56] Until next week, for Face the Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan.