Sen.-elect Abdul El-Sayed joins Morning Joe for a wide-ranging interview

[0:00] Joining the conversation, we have Democratic Senator-elect Abdul El-Sayed of Michigan. [0:06] Also with us, opinion writer at The New York Times, Mara Gay. [0:10] Turns out they were in a class together. [0:11] Many. [0:12] Many classes together. [0:14] We were poli-sci majors together at Michigan. [0:16] And you say you learned everything you know from Mara. [0:19] I mean, everything I learned. [0:21] We've been extending that political science class now into about 20 years. [0:24] I'm going to hear about this from my boss this week. [0:25] Exactly. [0:26] By reading her work that she publishes so frequently. [0:30] Yes. [0:31] Congratulations. [0:32] There are a lot of reasons a lot of us are heartened by what happened the other night that have nothing to do with ideology or politics. [0:40] I'm a pretty conservative guy. [0:42] You and I probably don't agree on everything. [0:46] But your victory, to me at least, I think to a lot of people was so important because bigotry was just out in the open. [0:54] But the hatefulness, saying that you were, you know, member of Al-Qaeda, part of Al-Qaeda, ISIS. [1:02] And I said it the other day, a white man usually only has to answer a question one time. [1:06] Remember the Muslim Brotherhood? [1:08] No. [1:09] You'd answer it. [1:11] And then they'd ask you again. [1:12] Yeah. [1:12] And again. [1:14] And again. [1:15] Because you're a Muslim. [1:16] So you must be a member of Al-Qaeda or ISIS or the Muslim Brotherhood. [1:21] And it backfired, didn't it? [1:23] It did. [1:23] You know, I've been to me my whole life. [1:25] So I think for a lot of people, they saw this. [1:27] They said, why are they treating him this way? [1:29] I've been to me for 42 years. [1:31] I've had a name, Abdul, Abdur-Rahman, the whole name for 42 years. [1:35] And when you see the world from my vantage point, there are always a few small-minded people who speak very loudly and claim to speak on behalf of everybody else. [1:42] Right. [1:42] But they don't spend much time talking to everybody else because most everybody else sees them for who they are. [1:47] So they talk amongst each other and they get louder and louder and louder. [1:50] And so I took a bet on a big Michigan, that Michiganders were going to reject this kind of victory. [1:56] And your bet, you were like, Ali, I'll knock him out in seven. [2:00] But you predicted. [2:02] Tell everybody about this. [2:03] You predicted you were going to win by seven points a month ago. [2:08] I did. [2:08] Well, I'm grateful that that came true. [2:10] But more importantly for me, it's that there are a lot of kids who are watching this. [2:13] And everybody has the experience of being told they don't belong, told that they're less than, ostracized from their classmates, for some reason or another way. [2:20] How they pray, the name, color of their skin. [2:23] And I wanted, when I was getting calls from people like, how do I explain this to my kids? [2:27] I'd say, just remember that the story's not over yet. [2:29] We're in the middle of the movie. [2:30] And I'm just so grateful that Michiganders rejected what they had seen from that. [2:35] And they embraced a big Michigan. [2:36] That's who we've always been in Michigan. [2:38] People are earnest. [2:39] They're open hearted. [2:41] They're thoughtful. [2:42] They're gritty. [2:43] And they saw that for what it was and decided that they wanted to embrace that big Michigan that includes all of us. [2:48] And, you know, Willie, speaking of big Michigan, I thought something that he did is such a great message for other candidates. [2:55] You know, Barack Obama in 2008, he won Iowa because he went to all the counties. [3:00] Counties said he should have lost by 80 percent. [3:03] Obama said, well, I'll go there and I'll lose it by 60 percent. [3:05] And you add that up, you end up winning. [3:08] He went to the Upper Peninsula. [3:09] People are like, why is he going to the Upper Peninsula? [3:11] It made a difference. [3:12] And guess what? [3:13] When you go talk to those people, they realize you're not the cartoon version that's been presented of you by your opponent and by all this advertising. [3:20] Congratulations, Senator-elect, on winning. [3:23] I mean, we noted every time you were asked a question like that or some other cultural issue or something else, you would always say that has nothing to do with the price of gas. [3:33] That has nothing to do with the price of groceries. [3:35] You are not alone in that. [3:36] The message discipline of Democrats over this race. [3:38] So what do you believe at the end of the day was the primary key to victory for you in terms of the issue that was on everyone's mind in Michigan? [3:47] I think it's this combination between affordability and consistency. [3:50] You know, we have this buzzword in politics, authenticity. [3:53] I think we think authenticity is about delivery. [3:55] It's not. [3:55] Authenticity is about consistency. [3:57] And the thing that people saw with me is they could spend dollar after dollar after dollar. [4:00] I mean, we got outspent in our primary 11 to 1, $70 million. [4:04] It's a record for the amount of money spent in any primary anywhere. [4:06] And then in the general, we got outspent by about $110 million. [4:09] But it didn't knock me off my block. [4:11] I kept talking about the same things in the same ways, going everywhere, saying what I needed to say. [4:15] And I think there's two questions that folks are asking. [4:17] What do you say you're going to fight for? [4:18] And then the other one is, how do I know you're going to fight for it, right? [4:21] It's like economists call this a moral hazard. [4:23] Like, how do I know you're actually about what you say you're about? [4:25] And too often, you look at politicians on either side. [4:27] You're like, I don't know that that person really believes it. [4:30] In my case, I was going to go everywhere, say exactly the same thing. [4:33] It didn't matter what they were going to spend on us. [4:35] So you knew that, like, that man's going to show up and fight, right? [4:38] And they're going to say terrible things about him. [4:39] And he's still going to be talking about the issues that matter. [4:41] You spent a good amount of time on Fox News. [4:44] As I said, go everywhere, right? [4:46] And that's the thing. [4:47] On Fox, they expected me to soften what I had to say. [4:49] I was like, no, I actually believe in the idea that you can persuade people. [4:53] And I believe that if you take your argument out to the public, even in the most hostile of environments, [4:58] and you're willing to defend the issue, people are like, I didn't see it that way. [5:02] I mean, I remember an interaction with Jesse Waters about billionaires. [5:05] And he's like, well, they work hard for the money. [5:07] I'm like, do they? [5:08] Like, once you've got a billion dollars, you're not working hard for anything, right? [5:10] Your billion makes more billions. [5:12] That's the problem with the system. [5:13] And I'd rather a system where we're not maybe helping us a billionaire make a second billion, [5:17] but instead helping a kid get a good education and a good school. [5:19] So maybe they can make their first million someday. [5:21] Yeah. [5:22] So Mr. Senator-elect, the president, at least so far in the two days since the defeat, [5:26] has suggested he will be willing to work across the aisle. [5:29] My question to you is, do you believe him? [5:31] And if he is true to his word, what would be a common ground to be found? [5:35] It's funny what happens when you stand up to people and you beat them. [5:39] And I think people have always seen Donald Trump as this big monster that's unbeatable. [5:43] It turns out you just stand up to him and he can read the tea leaves. [5:47] I'm willing to work with anyone. [5:48] And I want to talk about something because I think people see our politics as this game [5:52] where you get retribution on the other side. [5:54] It's not about retribution. [5:55] It should never be about retribution. [5:56] It's about enforcing the rule of law and, most importantly, delivering for the American public. [6:00] So if he's interested in getting money out of politics, putting money in pockets and passing [6:04] Medicare for all, that's what I ran to do. [6:06] And I'm looking forward to working with anyone who is willing to do that. [6:09] He is the president of the United States. [6:10] He does have substantial power. [6:11] However, I'm going to be one United States senator. [6:13] And if he's interested in working on issues that I want to work on, getting more people [6:16] health care, ending the Medicare cuts, ending the stupid war, stopping these stupid tariffs [6:20] with Canada, then let's talk about doing that and go and deliver for the public. [6:23] Clearly, they went a different way for a reason. [6:26] Let's see if we can't learn from that and make sure we're delivering for folks. [6:28] You know, this was in so many ways an election about the economy. [6:32] Americans are suffering. [6:33] You've been talking about that with discipline on the trail. [6:36] Well, at the same time, we've seen historic turnout among black voters in the South, among [6:41] Arab voters, among young voters. [6:44] And I wonder how you square that. [6:47] I mean, how do you think about, obviously, those are voters who also live in this economy, [6:51] but it seems to be more than that. [6:53] This also seemed to be an election about a rejection of Trumpism and in some ways a statement [6:59] about, hey, we want to, we believe in multiracial democracy. [7:02] So how do you think about that and how should the Democrats think about that in terms of [7:06] the messaging with voters moving forward? [7:09] So I think two things. [7:10] Number one, who has Trump's policies hurt the most, right? [7:14] Racism still is a thing in the world, even if folks thought it was verboten to talk about. [7:18] It's real. [7:19] You look at who's lost jobs in Trump's economy, 300,000 jobs lost by black women. [7:24] And that's because structural racism still really does exist. [7:27] And when you have a bad economy, it hurts people whose access to the economy was worse [7:32] to begin with. [7:33] And so it makes sense that these folks are showing up and saying, actually, I want to [7:37] vote for an economy that includes me, too. [7:39] But it's also the way that Republicans decided to scapegoat communities for their own failure. [7:45] It's not just that they failed to manage the economy, took us to a war. [7:48] We had no business fighting, tried to do a tariff regime that has lost us jobs. [7:51] It's that they then turned around and blamed a whole bunch of people who didn't look like [7:55] J.D. Vance or Donald Trump. [7:57] And a lot of these voters were like, wait a second, wait a second. [7:59] So I'm losing my job. [8:01] And now you want to blame folks because they have different kinds of names or look different [8:05] than you do. [8:06] Right. [8:07] And I don't see a way forward. [8:08] And so I think you saw a lot of community step up and say, I'm not just voting for the [8:12] kind of economy that includes me. [8:14] I'm also voting for the kind of politics that doesn't scapegoat me for your failure. [8:19] Yeah, you know, but there's campaigning and then there's governing. [8:23] And I'm curious, you were king of the clapback in your campaign and you were aggressive in [8:29] your style at times with reporters or with those who were saying unspeakable things about [8:34] you, kind of ran, ran right through it and got your message out. [8:39] It was successful. [8:41] Is there a different style that you will bring to the Senate in terms of getting things done? [8:45] Will you work with Republicans, even some who have said unspeakable things about you? [8:49] And what's your top issue? [8:50] I'm not here to defend me. [8:53] Everything I've tried to do in the campaign is about defending a way forward to try to [8:57] serve the public. [8:58] I will govern how I campaigned. [9:00] But I think one of the key takeaways is it's not just the conversation I'm going to get [9:05] to share with 99 other senators with whom I intend to share a conversation. [9:09] Ted Cruz said some awful things. [9:11] I will sit down with Ted Cruz. [9:12] And if he's got a bill that makes sense to get money out of politics, put money in pockets, [9:14] pass Medicare for all. [9:15] I'll work with him on it so long as he's willing to do it in good faith. [9:18] The question, though, is also about the conversations we have with the 330 million people who elect [9:23] all of us. [9:24] The more powerful conversation I can have isn't just with another senator in a cloakroom. [9:29] It's with the public so that that public is having a conversation with their senator and [9:32] saying, hey, why don't you sign on to this bill? [9:34] Because this would really, really help me. [9:36] And I think sometimes we think about campaign mode versus governing mode. [9:39] And part of the problem as Democrats is that we're not very good at going out there and [9:43] showing our work. [9:44] In politics, you have to show your work. [9:46] It's not just enough to be like, trust me on the solution. [9:48] It's saying, hey, here's why. [9:49] Here's what. [9:50] We're going to keep campaigning on the issues we want to push and then get back to the cloak [9:54] room between Monday and Thursday and figure out how to hammer that into legislation. [9:58] But don't you forget on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday, I'm going to be out there [10:02] maybe in your community having a conversation about why I hope that you're going to sign [10:06] on to this bill. [10:06] So you talk to your constituents, not just me. [10:08] You know, you know, the past couple of years, not only in politics, but also in culture, [10:14] there's been this big belief that we had reentered the white male manosphere to the exclusion [10:23] of all others. [10:24] So much so you had a secretary of defense running around taking down portraits of black war heroes [10:33] who flew more combat missions than any other pilot. [10:37] And you can talk about all of the ways this administration and all of the ways American [10:46] pop culture has sort of overread that mandate. [10:51] And we wake up and the Democratic Party talk about a big tent. [10:58] You've got a Muslim senator from Michigan. [11:01] You have a minister from Kansas. [11:05] You have a Christian seminarian from from Texas, probably going to have the first black senator [11:13] from the state of Mississippi since Reconstruction. [11:18] You have the first black woman as governor in Georgia. [11:23] It's pretty extraordinary. [11:25] Talk about despite the fact there are certain people in Magaland wanted to talk about, oh, [11:32] the Democratic Party split and divided between the DSA and, you know, sort of more moderate [11:37] Democrats. [11:38] Talk about how you all somehow managed to work together in this campaign and exceed all expectations. [11:45] Yeah. [11:45] I mean, we look like America. [11:47] Yeah. [11:48] And as much as people like J.D. [11:50] Vance or Donald Trump want America to look specifically like that. [11:54] And in J.D.'s case, it's kind of confusing because it's confusing. [11:57] It's very confusing, but, you know, I think I think it's important to remember that, you [12:05] know, I think part of the problem that we've had in the past is that there's multiple ways [12:09] to organize your tent. [12:10] I think one of the mistakes that we made in the past talking about a big tent was we organized [12:14] in different groups in every edge of the tent. [12:16] And then people would go and pander at every edge of the tent. [12:19] Right. [12:19] And I remember being pandered to by perfectly well-meaning politicians being like, I fasted [12:23] with you in solidarity. [12:24] I'm like, look, I get it. [12:25] You didn't eat, you didn't drink like we don't not eat and drink because there's not [12:29] food. [12:29] There's delicious meal waiting for us. [12:31] Right. [12:31] But don't come here in solidarity with me when you're not willing to fight when the going [12:35] gets tough. [12:36] What we tried to do in our campaign was bring everybody to the center tentpole to talk about [12:41] no matter who you are, how you identify, what you look like, how you pray, the color [12:45] of your skin, where your family came from. [12:47] You need a good job. [12:48] That job should pay you a living wage. [12:49] You need to know that you're going to have a good retirement and health care. [12:52] You need to be able to afford a home. [12:54] You need to send your kids to good schools. [12:56] And if we're able to bring everybody together and say, and we're also going to tie each [13:00] other together when it comes to rights so that if they come for your rights, they're [13:04] coming for all of our rights because rights, our rights, our rights, our rights. [13:06] It's not about how you use your rights. [13:08] It's about whether or not you assent to government trying to take your rights. [13:11] If we're committed, that government should be about providing you the basic means of a [13:15] dignified life and protecting your rights. [13:17] Let's all come together around that center tentpole and fight together. [13:21] That's what I think this new iteration of the Democratic Party is doing. [13:24] That's why this party looks like America. [13:25] But that's also why we have a chance to actually govern on a real mandate that can solve problems [13:29] for people. [13:30] Mr. Senator-elect, as you know very well, Democrats, independents, in addition to some Republicans, [13:35] were very concerned around your approach to Israel and the way you talked about policy [13:39] there. [13:40] Jewish voters, by the way, including your former primary opponent, turned on you at [13:44] the end. [13:45] That didn't have the impact she thought it was going to have. [13:47] What is your message now that you've won this election to Jewish voters in the state of [13:53] Michigan and, frankly, national voters who've been watching you very closely and want to [13:58] know what you will do to protect them in this era of anti-Semitism? [14:02] Yeah. [14:03] You know, I grew up, I was really privileged to grow up in a community where about 40 percent [14:06] of my high school class was Jewish. [14:07] I grew up going to synagogue, going to Seder, going to bar and bat mitzvahs growing up. [14:14] I have so much respect for the Jewish faith and Jewish contributions to American life. [14:19] I also know what it's like to be discriminated against for how I pray. [14:22] And I want an America where nobody is discriminated against under our Constitution. [14:25] You can pray as you choose to pray or not pray at all. [14:27] The idea that anybody should feel unsafe in their synagogue or their day school to me is [14:30] anathema. [14:31] I know what it's like to drop off my kids to a mosque and wonder if they're going to be [14:35] safe and I'm going to be able to pick them up safely afterwards. [14:38] I think we are all united in the work of making sure that no matter who you are, you are safe [14:42] in this country. [14:43] And I'm committed to the safety of Jewish children like I'm committed to the safety [14:46] of my own children. [14:47] I think a lot of the issue was more about the government of Israel and our posture toward [14:52] that government. [14:52] But I want to ask us this. [14:54] We spend billions of dollars subsidizing a foreign government unconditionally, buying [14:59] bombs and tanks that have been used to do genocide and apartheid and make war. [15:02] We have no business fighting and we're told that if you want to stand up against the murder [15:06] of innocent Palestinian children, that that's somehow about hate for anybody. [15:10] It's not about hate for anybody. [15:11] It's about equal love for those Palestinian children as you would have for a Jewish child [15:14] growing up in the Holy Land. [15:15] And my approach to foreign policy is simple. [15:17] We should be the first among equals to uphold international law. [15:20] But we have ran roughshod over the notion of what was done to Gaza as if that's not the [15:27] central question. [15:28] But like we're not that far. [15:29] I mean, it's still ongoing. [15:30] You're still talking about apartheid policy in the West Bank. [15:33] You're still talking about the ongoing disruption of access to basic resources in Gaza. [15:37] You're still talking about a genocide. [15:39] But nobody wants to say that. [15:40] So if I stand up and say, hey, maybe we shouldn't be sending our money to do the worst things [15:43] to other people. [15:44] People like, well, it must be because you hate the people who are doing the worst things. [15:48] I'm like, that's insane. [15:49] What is Donald Trump talking about cutting off aid by January? [15:53] I agree with him on that. [15:54] I don't think that we should be continuing to subsidize a foreign military that has done the [15:58] worst things with our money. [15:59] I agree. [16:00] I'd love to work with him on doing that. [16:02] In fact, I don't know that we should be continuing to sell weapons to a country that is, again, [16:06] using our weapons to do awful things. [16:08] And I want to just step back on this. [16:10] We have to separate between Judaism and the Jewish people and Israel and its actions. [16:15] We have to. [16:16] And I've tried to do that consistently across my campaign. [16:19] But people keep saying, well, because of your positions on Israel, you must also feel a [16:23] certain way about Jewish people. [16:24] I say, well, no, actually, we have to differentiate between our foreign policy. [16:28] And by the way, I apply the same approach to the government of Egypt, where my family came [16:32] from. [16:32] And I would hate that somebody would assume that I would be OK with the human rights [16:36] abuses of the government of Egypt simply because I share the ethnicity of the majority [16:40] of people who are in Egypt. [16:41] So we just have to be governing on principle. [16:44] And we have broken our own principles when it comes to Israel time and again. [16:48] And I want to have a conversation. [16:49] I'll stop here. [16:49] Yeah. [16:50] Where a Palestinian child and a Jewish Israeli child growing up in the Holy Land can look [16:54] forward at their life and say, my life is not going to be curtailed by somebody's violence. [16:58] How do we get there? [16:59] Hey, it's Rachel. [17:00] I am so glad to see you at the end of that clip, because this is where I get to tell you [17:03] about a new way to watch all our clips and all of our shows and everything on MSNOW on your [17:10] phone or your tablet or your laptop. [17:12] You can watch things live or recorded. [17:14] Plus, you can ask me and all the other hosts and reporters questions in our weekly live [17:18] chats. [17:20] You can go to MSNOW slash membership or just click below. [17:26] Thanks.