Rep. Mike Turner, Sen. Mark Kelly, more — Face the Nation Full Broadcast - August 2, 2026

[0:01] I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington and this week on Face the Nation, Iran apparently blinks after [0:08] threats from President Trump for a major joint U.S. and Israel attack on Iranian soil. Heading [0:15] into a sixth month of conflict with Iran, President Trump told reporters Friday he had plans to go [0:21] full throttle on his threat for military action in Iran. We'll be hitting him. We'll be hitting [0:27] him very hard. At some point they're going to say we just can't take him anymore. His vows [0:32] for going big caused a flurry of diplomatic scrambling and yet another announcement of [0:37] quote perimeters of a deal. But is this the one that's for real? We'll have the latest. Plus [0:44] after an alarming incident of open AI going rogue and hacking into at least one company's [0:50] computer system, we'll talk to the CEO of Hugging Face, Clem DeLange. Finally with polls showing [0:57] Americans souring on both political parties, we'll talk with former Senator Joe Manchin [1:03] about his latest effort to encourage independence to join the process. It's all just ahead on Face [1:10] the Nation. Good morning and welcome to Face the Nation. President Trump's threat to massively [1:29] escalate attacks on Iran set off a diplomatic scramble on Saturday. American allies, including [1:35] the Saudi crown prince, urged the president to back off plans to bomb Iran's energy infrastructure. [1:42] Late last night, Trump said military action at levels unseen since World War II remained an option. [1:49] But he's holding off for now at the request of allies as well as Iran because he claimed there [1:55] was a diplomatic opportunity or as he put it, quote, the perimeters of a deal has been agreed to. [2:01] This morning, diplomatic sources tell me that there is no deal yet, but rather signs of progress towards [2:07] an arrangement with Iran to reopen the strait. The challenge remains just how much leverage Iran [2:14] will maintain over it. We turn now to Arizona Democratic Senator Mark Kelly, who joins us from [2:20] Columbus, Ohio this morning. Good morning to you, Senator. [2:24] Good morning, Margaret. [2:25] We're now in the sixth month of this war we had been told would last four to five weeks. In the past [2:31] week, the targets have widened. Iran hit Egypt. We saw Saudi Arabia join the U.S. in bombing [2:37] Iranian-backed militias there. And then late last night, President Trump used the term that he had [2:44] been considering military action on levels unseen since World War II. You sit on intelligence, you sit [2:51] on armed services. Has the administration shared anything in regard to its plans on Iran? [2:56] I mean, not these latest plans. And I think what we're seeing here is a president who has an [3:04] approach to this that's just rather erratic. He says one thing, he does another thing. It's escalatory [3:11] at this point. He's trying to get us back to February. And I think if he could, he would, [3:16] if he had a big reset button he could hit, he would certainly take that option. Hey, we've got 18 [3:22] dead Americans. Prices have skyrocketed across the country for the American people. I was here in [3:28] Ohio. I'm here in Ohio now, but I met with some veterans the other day. And they're struggling. I [3:34] mean, these are a lot of retired service members that can't afford to put gas in their car, can't [3:39] afford groceries. Rent is going up. And this president is not dealing with the issues that the American [3:46] people need him to deal with. Well, you know, in our polling, we see that this is a very unpopular [3:52] war and it's weighing on the president's own approval ratings. But Democrats are faring slightly [3:56] worse, according to CBS polling. When asked who has the better approach to Iran, 32% say Trump and [4:02] the GOP. Only 30% say the Democrats. So we are in this thing. Do Democrats need to offer an affirmative [4:09] vision for ending it? Well, I don't think it's the president's vision. Here's a guy who got us into [4:16] this without a strategic goal, without a plan, without a timeline. He's got a secretary of defense [4:21] that doesn't know how to manage this war, who decided a good metric at the beginning was just [4:29] to drop as many munitions as he could on as many targets. And now we've got a munitions shortage. [4:34] Big surprise. So they're flailing. They're stuck. They're responsible for this. And the president [4:42] is the one that has to try to figure out a way out of this. I would suggest to him, though, [4:47] that the solution is not to do the same thing that he's been doing, not to have his real estate buddy [4:53] and his son-in-law in charge of a negotiation, to put some people in here that know how to do this, [5:00] how to talk to the Iranians and put a coalition together, bring our allies back together. He's [5:06] alienated not only our GCC allies, but our European allies as well. And it's just making this much [5:13] harder for him to figure out a way out. The Washington Post is reporting that the top [5:18] U.S. general in Europe, General Grinkowicz, warned the Pentagon that he lacks resources to protect [5:24] Israel from incoming ballistic missiles. And if he's without another Navy destroyer, [5:29] he will be forced to choose between defense of the homeland versus that of Israel. [5:36] It sounds like for the moment, Israel's not rejoining combat operations. But [5:40] what does that say to you? Have you heard these concerns from this top commander yourself? [5:47] I haven't heard this specifically from Grinkowicz on this issue. But we, it's not, Margaret, [5:55] it's not, this isn't rocket science. It's not hard to figure out. I mean, we struck over 14,000 targets [6:02] with multiple munitions. That, that is, puts a lot of stress on the magazine depth. So of course, [6:11] our commanders, probably not only in Europe, but in other places are starting to feel some stress on, [6:18] can they meet the need if they need to defend the homeland or our allies. You can, you can see [6:26] why this is an issue for him. And that's because at the beginning of this thing, there was no strategic [6:33] goal. And without the goal, it's hard to figure out what to do next. And I think that's why that, [6:41] you know, that's why Hegseth went just to try to set records on the number of targets hit. [6:45] Yeah. I should say for the record that the Pentagon says it's media speculation and they don't comment [6:51] on operational capabilities. We did ask them to clarify that. But on the point about restocking, [6:58] Secretary Hegseth says he needs money from Congress to do that, to replenish munitions. He needs money [7:03] from Congress to pay salaries. He needs $67 billion. You recently were asked, and you said you were [7:09] undecided on how you would vote on additional funding. How do you deny that needed funding? [7:16] Well, Margaret, last year we passed a defense budget that was over a trillion dollars. That [7:21] was the first time ever. It was sold to us as a one-time generational investment in the department. [7:30] And in my view, they squandered that. Now they're coming and they're asking for $1.5 trillion plus a [7:38] supplemental. We're approaching the amount of money that every other country on the planet spends on [7:44] defense in a year. This is irresponsible. And now they want a blank check. Hey, I'm going to make [7:52] sure the troops have what they need to defend themselves and defend the United States. [7:57] So you would vote for the 67? But they need to come to us. No, not no, [8:02] not necessarily. They need to come to us with a region reasonable approach here. The $1.5 trillion, [8:09] you know, that has systems that I am very confident aren't going to work. [8:15] They're still working on space-based interceptors for ICBMs. The physics on this is really very, [8:21] very challenging. It's not going to make us safer. There are other systems that we don't need. [8:26] They need to understand that we do not have unlimited resources in this country. [8:33] We've got $39.5 trillion in debt. And the defense budget that they're requesting is twice [8:42] what it was when I got to the United States Senate in 2021. It's twice that budget. [8:47] Well, you mentioned that you're in Ohio right now, and you were campaigning for [8:52] fellow Democrats there. We're about 90 days out from the midterms. We looked at some recent [8:57] Quinnipiac polling. It showed Democrats have a 23, 2-3 percent approval rating, [9:03] worse than President Trump's approval. You've got a lot of headwinds. Republicans have an advantage [9:08] over Democrats in terms of funding. There's redistricting that I know Democrats say disadvantages [9:15] them, though they've also gerrymandered. We see inter-party fighting in Minnesota and in Michigan [9:21] with no real promise to unify Democrats over a common candidate here. How concerned are you [9:28] that Democrats are going to lose this thing or end up with this very, very tight race? [9:34] Well, I think we have an opportunity here, [9:36] despite the Republican gerrymandering that started in the state of Texas [9:43] to try to, you know, rig the deck, so to say here, and make it more challenging, [9:53] that provides an advantage to them. But this president is historically [9:58] unpopular for a midterm president, and he's not meeting the needs of the American people. [10:04] You know, gas is up over $4 a gallon. Half of Americans are having a hard time affording food. [10:10] Rent, home ownership is down. Rent is up. The American people are really struggling. [10:17] So we have an opportunity to win back the House, and I am confident we will. [10:21] On the Senate side, it's challenging. I'm not going to paint this as a rosy picture. [10:28] But we've got 90 days to go. We have opportunities in a lot of different places, [10:33] more than we thought we had six months ago. And a year and a half ago, I would say we had no [10:38] opportunity to win back the Senate, but because of the horrible job that Donald Trump has done for [10:44] the American people. I think we have a chance we could win back control of the Senate. And that's [10:49] why I'm here supporting Sherrod Brown. You know, he wasn't successful in 2024. He could definitely win [10:57] here in 2026, but it's going to take some effort. Let me ask you about what may happen tomorrow. [11:03] Bill Pulte, who is the acting director of national intelligence, has said that he is going to hand [11:09] over the top job to the man who was just confirmed by the Senate, Jay Clayton. Democratic objection had [11:15] been one of the holdups as well in getting that FISA authority passed. I'm wondering, once you see [11:22] this change of command, are those Democratic objections going to melt away? [11:26] I can't speak for everybody, but for me, they will. Bill Pulte was not qualified in any way for this [11:34] job. Should have never had it. He fired, according to him, about half of the director's office. And, [11:43] hey, I thought there were too many people over there anyway, but this guy was not qualified, [11:47] didn't even really understand what the Office of National Intelligence did. [11:52] So I can't imagine he did a very good job at figuring out who to let go and who to keep. [12:01] And because we're also in the middle of a war right now. So I suspect when we sort this out, [12:08] we're going to probably realize that he fired a bunch of the wrong people. So hopefully on Monday, [12:15] he is out of the office and we could talk about FISA renewal. [12:19] All right. Senator Mark Kelly, thank you for your time this morning. [12:22] Thanks for having me on. FISA Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us. [12:27] And we're back with Ohio Republican Congressman Mike Turner. He joins us this morning from Dayton. [12:36] Good morning to you. Good morning, Margaret. [12:39] You served on the Armed Services Committee. Back in March, the Republican chair of it said [12:43] the administration has not given enough detail. That was March. It's now July. [12:47] Are you satisfied with what you're being told? Excuse me, it's August. [12:50] Well, I mean, yes. You know, still the administration could be sharing more with Congress. [12:58] I don't think anybody is satisfied with the level of information that we're receiving, [13:01] although it is a dynamic conflict. I think also that that's true, even as the administration is [13:07] looking to its review, both in Europe, the conflict in Iran, the issues with Ukraine. Across the board, [13:15] both the House and the Senate have registered that the Pentagon needs to be sharing more information [13:21] with Congress. Well, on Friday, out at Camp David, it was all on camera. The president's [13:27] team gathered. They talked about initiatives they're working on. They all praised him. [13:32] And Secretary Hague said Iran has shown no willingness to honestly negotiate. [13:37] Here's what President Trump said. Listen. [13:40] I'm losing faith in them because they do lie and they do misrepresent. Well, the other day, [13:48] the five missiles were shot. We knocked them down, but we were in the midst of a negotiation. [13:52] Well, they always want to talk, but they break their words so often. They've been very dishonest. [13:56] They've been very dishonorable to deal with, but that makes no difference. [14:00] So that was the president laying out why he doesn't trust diplomacy with Iran. [14:07] Last night, he said there's a diplomatic opening and a deal may be within reach. Will you support [14:13] it sight unseen? Are we at risk of the president cutting a flawed deal just to end this unpopular [14:19] conflict? Well, I don't think it's cutting a flawed deal. I mean, this is part of a process, [14:25] obviously, of where Iran has to be in a position where, as the president has set out the two goals, [14:31] and that is, one, that they have abandoned their nuclear ambitions and certainly restarting their [14:38] nuclear enrichment programs, and certainly the issues of an open Straits of Hormuz, and so that [14:45] we return back to an open straits where commerce and the flow of oil and natural gas can resume. [14:54] So the war should continue until there is some diplomatic deal regarding the nuclear program? [14:59] Because right now, they're just talking about the strait. [15:01] Well, it's not really. As you know, this began with Epic Fury, where the president went in, [15:08] which we've described as an inevitable conflict as a result of where Obama left us with the watching [15:16] until Iran began to get closer and closer to enough nuclear material to have an opportunity [15:23] for a nuclear weapon. The International Atomic Energy Agency said that they were weeks away [15:27] as a result of where they were left before Epic Fury. Then we have- [15:31] In terms of enrichment capacity, not weaponization. [15:35] Yes. Well, they would have the opportunity to be able to do so. And then with the straits, [15:41] and they're closing the straits, and then we had the memorandum of understanding where [15:47] it looked as if they were going to come to a deal. And then now the president has been trying to [15:53] enforce the opening of the straits. Now, if Iran, where all metrics would show that Iran is in a [16:01] position where they're going to have to come to a table, whether it's economics, where it's energy [16:05] production, whether it's the loss of critical infrastructure, military infrastructure, [16:11] the loss of their military capabilities, all metrics would show a declining capability to continue. [16:18] They're going to have to be in a position where ultimately they're going to have to concede to the [16:23] opening of the straits and returning to commerce. Well, we'll see. The president said they're [16:29] perimeters. I think he meant parameters of possible deal. But we'll track that diplomacy. Let me ask [16:36] you, though, about what's happening on U.S. soil. The FBI warned cyber actors are attacking water [16:41] utilities in at least seven states. CBS is reporting that U.S. officials are probing to determine [16:47] whether it's Iranian hackers behind it. They've done something similar back in 2023. President Trump [16:53] was asked, and here's what he said. You know who's behind it? Minnesota, because they're grossly [17:00] incompetent. I think the governor's behind it. I don't think there was an Iranian cyber attack. [17:05] I know it takes a while to officially attribute an attack, but has Congress at least been told which [17:11] states are impacted? Is Ohio? And is this an attack on U.S. soil amid a war? [17:17] Well, we certainly have not been informed at this time, but I think you've [17:21] correctly pointed out, Margaret, that Iran has attacked our critical infrastructure previously. [17:27] There have been reports, obviously, of China hacking and Russia hacking. Well, one thing that we have to [17:32] acknowledge is that our adversaries, Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, look at the critical [17:37] infrastructure that support our civilian infrastructure like water, are seen as valid military [17:45] targets by our adversaries. And so these need to be monitored. They need to be hardened. These are [17:51] things that we do not do, we would not do. And Iran certainly has been doing this well before this [17:57] conflict. And this is something we certainly need to be aware of and we need to be diligent. [18:01] Well, we're certainly in a conflict where we would expect that they would continue that [18:06] which they were doing to us before. I want to get to a bit of politics. [18:10] Out in Ohio, your colleague, Max Miller, according to the latest court filing, [18:16] he's been accused of domestic abuse. The court filing says he shoved his then wife, held a gun to her [18:22] head, poured hot water on her and had concerns he may have broken their two-year-old daughter's [18:27] collarbone, according to both police reports and court documents that were filed. He just went live [18:33] in a social media stream and denied these allegations within the past hour. My question is not about his [18:40] marriage or his personal life, but I'm asking about the politics here and the party. Should there be [18:47] an ethics probe to look into this? Well, Margaret, what you just said when you began this question is [18:52] that this is a matter of litigation. This is best handled in a courtroom and not in a TV studio. And this [18:59] is, you know, that type of speculation is better for TMZ than CBS. Well, we've covered with other [19:05] lawmakers, including in the other party, the Democratic Party, credible allegations against people [19:11] running for office. We take those allegations seriously. When it comes to Mr. Miller, he was [19:16] previously accused in 2021 by President Trump's former spokesperson of abusing her when they dated. [19:21] So given these two instances, is it at least something Republican leadership should look into? [19:28] Well, again, this is this is an issue that is currently part of a divorce and part of litigation [19:33] that's in a courtroom. And the court should be handling this, which is clearly ongoing. And that's where [19:40] this needs to be, not in a television studio. So it doesn't matter to you? [19:45] It's not that it doesn't matter to me. This is this this is where the court needs to handle this. [19:49] The court has filings, which is what you just said. You were reading that there were court filings. [19:54] There's also an election. Court needs to handle this issue as to whether or not it's the truth and [19:59] where truth will then be resolved, which is where things belong in a court where people file papers [20:05] in a court, as you just read. So you want the court to handle it before [20:09] Republican leadership looks into it. This is litigation. This is this is a [20:13] court matter, not a television matter. Right. And not one for Republican leadership [20:18] is what I hear you saying. I've said to you that this is not one for [20:23] you and I to handle in a television studio. This is one that's in court. [20:26] OK, we handle these allegations seriously, regardless of the political party. [20:30] And these are not media allegations. As you said, they're court documents. Congressman [20:34] Miller claimed it was a media construct. And it's being handled in court, [20:37] which is where it belongs. I got it. You don't want to comment. I understand. [20:42] In terms of your portfolio on armed services, I do want to ask you about what has happened [20:48] within the past few days. Russia fired a barrage of ballistic missiles at Kyiv. [20:54] Only one of them was intercepted. President Zelensky said that's because there are no interceptors [20:59] left. I know you've asked the president to allow for him to be able to produce patriots. [21:05] We had thought there was a breakthrough. However, President Trump seemed to backtrack [21:10] on that Friday. He said, quote, we're talking about it, but it's a hard thing to do to give [21:15] away that kind of technology. Is it on track or is it not? Are we letting Ukraine license Patriot [21:22] interceptor production? Right. Well, the actual quote that he said, [21:27] he was talking in that in that paragraph, he was talking about tomahawks and Patriots. [21:31] They also went on to say that the negotiations were ongoing. It is very, very difficult on Patriots, [21:37] which are defensive. In the quote, actually, it included tomahawks, which are also offensive. [21:43] I do think that there are ongoing negotiations concerning providing a broader opportunity for [21:49] Ukraine to have access to Patriot technology, to be able to have production and defensive technology. [21:58] This is going to be very important both for allies and for Ukraine. [22:02] This technology, because it has become so central around the world, because missile technology [22:08] is proliferating, so defensive technology needs to proliferate. We have the most advanced technology [22:14] and there is high demand for it. And the president stepping up and saying that we need to look [22:19] to be able to be able to license this technology is really going to be important both for Ukraine, [22:25] our allies, and really, I think, for the United States. But you think it's still in process? [22:28] I think it's still in process. I think it's incredibly important. [22:31] And I encourage the president and the Pentagon to move as swiftly as possible to ensure that Ukraine [22:36] can, you know, every night there are people who die in Ukraine because Russia is sending missiles [22:42] into Ukraine and hitting defenseless civilians, not military targets, but defenseless civilians. [22:50] There was outcry because a missile landed in a field in Poland. [22:53] Yes. [22:54] Every night there are missiles that land on people and kill them in Ukraine. We need to help them. [23:00] Yes. Understood. And NATO did call out those instances. We have to leave it there, [23:05] Congressman Turner. We'll be right back. We turn to the Trump administration's [23:13] latest beautification project in Washington. The statues that greet people entering D.C. [23:18] as they cross the Memorial Bridge over the Potomac have been re-guilded bright gold from their previous [23:24] bronze. Welcome back to Face the Nation. 50,000 troops are deployed to the Mideast for a war with [23:38] Iran, a war the American public was told would last four to five weeks when it began at the end of [23:43] February. American diplomats in the region are also in limbo. They're not the only ones struggling to [23:50] obtain clear information about the war and its goals. America's far-flung conflicts in Vietnam. [23:58] We're going into what the first Cav calls a hot LZ. Afghanistan and both wars in Iraq were beamed [24:06] home by reporters embedded with ground troops. They're returning fire with heavy machine guns and [24:12] that mortar round you just heard went off. But in this military campaign dominated by air and long-range [24:20] missile strikes, there is no such reporting. Government-produced social media videos are [24:26] our only snapshot of what is happening. There is no free press in Iran. And after that deadly school [24:34] bombing, the U.S. government restricted commercial satellite imagery from being made public. [24:40] Last fall, the Pentagon barred military commanders from talking to Congress without prior approval. [24:46] There is no longer a traditional Pentagon press corps since Secretary Hegseth put reporting [24:52] restrictions on them. [24:53] Secretary Hegseth, Deputy Secretary of Journal, Secretary of the United States for United States for United, [24:53] to the American media, as I just can't help but notice the endless stream of garbage. [25:00] JUDY WOODRUFF, Secretary of State for United States for United States for United States for United States for United States. [25:00] He has not held a press briefing since May 5. Past administrations gave regular, though at times, [25:08] factually flawed briefings. [25:10] we also know that they have a very active weapon of mass destruction program. [25:13] Today, Americans are getting snippets of the president's thinking, but few details. [25:19] We are the party of transparency and we believe in transparency. [25:23] The public first learned of the surprise U.S.-Israeli strike on Iran from an eight-minute-long video posted at 3 a.m. on social media. [25:32] The United States military is undertaking a massive and ongoing operation. [25:37] Trump estimated combat would last four to five weeks. [25:42] Seven days in, he declared victory. [25:45] We're winning the war by a lot. We've decimated their whole evil empire. [25:52] Four weeks later, he gave the first and so far only primetime address about Iran. [25:56] I can say tonight that we are on track to complete all of America's military objectives shortly, very shortly. [26:03] Days later, he launched diplomatic talks. [26:06] The bad news is that we have not reached an agreement. [26:08] And it should be ending pretty soon. It was perfect. [26:13] And declared a ceasefire. [26:15] We'll see whether or not they can make a deal that's satisfactory to us. [26:19] We have it very much under control. [26:21] Trump said he feared the energy crisis would trigger a depression. [26:25] We run out of reserves in about four weeks. [26:27] You know, there are reserves all over the world and we would really run out. [26:31] And there'll be a time when you wouldn't be able to get it. [26:33] And you want to see bedlam? [26:34] With peace and a decisive military victory elusive, he declared a truce. [26:39] We're winning militarily. It's almost won militarily, I would say. [26:45] And now America has returned to the war we were told we had won. [26:49] They've got no Navy. They've got no Air Force. [26:51] Most people would have given up. They haven't. [26:53] So I give them credit for that. I mean, they're known as being tough. They're tough. [26:56] The lack of information sharing is frustrating Congress. [27:00] Republican Senator John Kennedy. [27:02] I would put Rubio and Cain and Radcliffe and Hedgeseth out there, [27:07] either in a speech or in a long press conference, [27:10] to explain what's going on in Iran, why we went in, why we're still there. [27:16] You deny me that information, and I'm going to be frustrated. [27:19] Senator Bill Cassidy told us it took a yelling match with the president himself [27:24] to pry out any information. [27:27] I need to know to serve my people and my state and my country. [27:30] As it turns out, I got a briefing afterwards. [27:33] The Pentagon touts its highly produced video posts as direct-to-consumer updates. [27:38] But the American public has lost faith. [27:42] 63% of Americans tell CBS that the conflict is not going well. [27:47] 67% say end it now. [27:50] And 69% say they are not getting a clear understanding of what's happening on a day-to-day basis. [27:57] Perhaps informing the American people of what their government is doing in their name might change that. [28:08] We turn now to artificial intelligence and a question that has emerged after a series of alarming hacking incidents. [28:15] Is it safe? [28:16] To discuss, we're joined by Clem DeLang. [28:19] He is CEO of AI platform Hugging Face, whose company detailed one of the attacks last week. [28:25] Clem, good morning to you. [28:27] Good morning. [28:27] Thanks for having me. [28:29] Well, your company disclosed it was attacked earlier this month by an autonomous AI cyber actor, [28:36] which jumped on its own from another company's testing system to hack into your company. [28:44] Open AI later disclosed it was their technology that went rogue. [28:49] They lost control of it. [28:52] Tell me, why did your company alert the public and alert the FBI? [28:58] Do you think this is a crime? [29:00] Well, I think it felt very weird and unprecedented to us, right? [29:06] Because I think it's the first instance of something quite autonomous doing something like that. [29:12] So the volume of the actions taken and the speed of them, I think it was 17,000 actions taken in four and a half days, was very new. [29:25] Obviously, the attacker, when we talk about cyber attack, we think about nation states, we think about hacker groups. [29:32] We don't think about a company like Open AI, right, a very prominent, popular American company. [29:39] And then the way we responded using an open model, so using AI ourselves to defend ourselves against that was also pretty new and pretty newsworthy in our opinion. [29:52] Mm-hmm. You defended yourselves. You found the solution yourselves. [29:56] But you went to the FBI. [29:58] I think for a lot of people, when they think of someone committing a crime, they think of a human. [30:03] They don't think of a program, a computer program, as something you can prosecute, as committing a crime. [30:11] What is the FBI doing? [30:13] Well, I mean, we reported to the authorities as we have to in such instances, right? [30:22] It's kind of like a mandatory disclosure, both with the authorities and the public, when you face something like that, which is basically what we did. [30:34] Now, when we think about the future, right, now we've heard that it's not only Open AI, but also entropic that has faced similar conflict issues. [30:44] I think it's really important that we keep in mind that cyber attacks need to be contained in the legal framework in the U.S. [30:53] and need to stay illegal to prevent an explosion of them in the future, right? [30:59] Like, we don't want to end up in a world where everyone is facing cyber attacks all the time because of agents, and companies that are creating these agents are not kind of, like, accountable for them. [31:11] So I think it's important for regulators, for policymakers to think about the legal framework of this new kind of technology risk. [31:20] You described more than 17,000 hacking actions on the Internet before this was even discovered by your company. [31:27] That sounds like the developers have lost control. [31:32] Have they? [31:34] Well, you have to remember it's a technology system, but built by engineers, and engineers can make mistakes sometimes. [31:42] And I think that's what happens here. [31:45] That's what happened here. [31:48] You know, we already in our society accept some level of autonomy, and I think they built kind of like an autonomous system and made some mistakes. [31:57] And as a result, we're facing this issue. [32:01] So you said you think there should be some legal parameters put around this. [32:08] The Trump administration has taken a very light touch in regulation because they want to keep America competitive in this space. [32:16] They have this policy where they can review technology for 30 days to judge basically how dangerous something is before a company releases it to market. [32:26] But as I understand what you described, this attack happened before technology was at market. [32:34] It happened during the development stage. [32:37] It was unreleased. [32:38] So what you're saying, I think, is there is no regulation at this point that would prevent something like this from happening again. [32:46] Yeah, that's a really clear example that just kind of like preventing releases of AI models doesn't really work. [32:55] Concentrating everything behind closed doors in just a few organizations doesn't work. [33:00] One thing that does work, that worked in this case, is kind of like promoting more open models, right? [33:08] Because we defended ourselves with an open model, right? [33:12] Like we couldn't have done it with an API because they had these guardrails that's preventing activity for cybersecurity. [33:20] And we needed to run a model on our own infrastructure. [33:24] So we needed an open model. [33:26] When you say open model, just for our audience, as I understand it, it's an AI model whose core components are publicly released. [33:34] So anyone can download it. [33:36] It's not closed off like a company can do to their proprietary information. [33:43] So you want more of this essentially out there and accessible to the public. [33:48] Yeah. [33:48] Yeah, because there's the only way for defenders to defend themselves on topics like that. [33:54] They remove the asymmetry of power and capabilities, right, in these kinds of risks. [34:00] If you have very powerful systems and very weak systems that are defending, then that's when you have the right problem. [34:08] But if you balance, if you make it more kind of like symmetric in terms of attackers and defenders, that's usually when you end up in a safer world. [34:17] And I actually do think that we're talking a lot about the risks for cybersecurity right now. [34:22] But AI is actually an opportunity to fix a lot of the cybersecurity problems. [34:27] We're defending ourselves with AI. [34:30] We're going to use AI to fix a lot of our bugs. [34:33] So hopefully AI is going to make the world safer ultimately thanks to that. [34:38] And you used a Chinese AI model to defend yourselves. [34:42] There's a lot of concern about inviting China into this space. [34:47] Yeah. [34:47] I mean, the interesting thing is that we used the American version of a Chinese model. [34:52] We used a version from NVIDIA that kind of like made a Chinese model better. [35:01] So that's the beauty of kind of like open models. [35:03] Once they are shared, wherever they come from, from China or from anywhere, American companies can modify them, remix them, host them, run them themselves. [35:14] So that's one of the things that actually make them safe wherever they come from. [35:19] So I want to ask you about a specific piece of legislation. [35:23] And I will say up front, there isn't a lot of work that's getting done in Congress right now. [35:29] But there is this bipartisan bill that would give Homeland Security the authority to order AI firms to shut down or to slow down their artificial intelligence models if they're too dangerous. [35:40] It's called the kill switch bill. [35:42] Is that something you want? [35:46] Well, I mean, I think something we're realizing with these events is that concentrating power capabilities behind closed doors, even preventing their releases to the public, isn't really a solution. [36:01] You know, like these problems happened on unreleased models. [36:04] So I think the problem is not so much kind of like limiting the progress or kind of like preventing companies from releasing these models. [36:19] It's actually the opposite. [36:22] It's giving access to more people so that they can defend themselves, democratizing the technology, making it more transparent. [36:30] Clem, thank you so much for explaining all this to the public. [36:34] We appreciate your time today. [36:37] We'll be back in a moment. [36:42] And we're joined now by former West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin and his daughter Heather Manchin. [36:47] They are the heads of a new effort which aims to elect independent candidates to public office. [36:52] It's good to have you both here. [36:53] Good to be with you, Margaret. [36:54] Thank you. [36:55] Well, let's talk about this. [36:56] Senator, let's start with you. [36:58] There's a market for what you're selling. [37:00] According to CNN's polling, 47 percent of American adults identified as political independence. [37:06] That's the highest level in a decade. [37:08] But over time, we have seen these attempts to break through the two-party system just haven't really panned out. [37:15] So what do you think is going to happen with that 47 percent now? [37:19] Well, everyone depends on the independents to get elected now. [37:21] That's all you hear. [37:21] All the polls that are taken. [37:22] To swing one way or the other. [37:24] You know, in the last presidential election, it came down to seven battleground states. [37:28] That means 43 were predetermined. [37:31] 435 congressional seats, 395 were predetermined. [37:34] There's no competition whatsoever in the system because the party, the strength of the two-party system, [37:39] the Democrat and Republican, prevents that from happening. [37:42] They have total control of how the primaries are put up. [37:46] You know, put up, and when I said this, if you look at the last election of all the primaries across the country, [37:52] only about 21 percent of the people showed up. [37:55] 21 percent, the lowest ever. [37:57] So they're controlling it. [37:58] And guess what? [37:59] MAGA's taken over the Republican, and now you have the DSA. [38:04] Seems to be having a lot of energy on the Democrat side. [38:08] What happened to the people that live their lives in the middle, [38:10] that make decisions, that make things work in America? [38:13] They got nobody speaking for them. [38:14] Do you think they stay home? [38:15] In 90 days? [38:16] I think they do give up. [38:17] They just said this doesn't matter because the parties have control. [38:20] They're going to do what they want to do. [38:22] There's no openness at all. [38:23] If you're an independent, try to get on the ballot. [38:26] They make you jump through every hoop in the world and go out and get thousands of signatures. [38:30] Where if you're a Democrat or Republican, you want to run, you pay a fee. [38:34] You pay a fee, just get on the ballot. [38:35] That's it. [38:36] But they make it almost impossible for anyone else to compete against them. [38:39] You know who says it's a rigged system? [38:40] Bernie Sanders. [38:41] He's an independent. [38:43] Bernie is a socialist now. [38:45] And I respect Bernie. [38:46] I respect where he's coming from. [38:47] Bernie's always been who he is. [38:48] But he's had to use the Democratic Party to get on the ticket. [38:51] Yes. [38:52] He took that path. [38:53] We're saying be an independent. [38:55] Be a pure independent. [38:57] Run as an independent. [38:58] Come to Washington. [38:59] Do not caucus with either side. [39:01] Be an independent. [39:01] And I'll guarantee you, maybe you're going to make a difference of how they make their decisions. [39:06] Because they're going to need you. [39:07] They need you to get elected. [39:08] They're going to need you also to make law. [39:10] Heather, is there anyone in Congress right now who you think is truly an independent? [39:14] Because there are only three with an eye next to their name. [39:16] No. [39:17] And as Dad pointed out, they're caucusing with one side or the other. [39:21] So, you know, I think we have seen, and just in stories today, that the parties have literally [39:27] sucked out any independent thinking, any political courage. [39:32] And so, unfortunately, we believe that perhaps all of that gives an opportunity to say, can [39:39] we get someone elected outside the two-party system and go to Congress and stay independent? [39:45] That really to have that independent thinking and bring some negotiation conversation to the [39:50] bills that, unfortunately, it's a party-line vote. [39:52] It doesn't matter what could be negotiated to get anything done. [39:57] It's a stalemate and everyone picking a side. [40:00] So, for you to back a certain candidate, you are not requiring any kind of policy platform. [40:05] You would support anyone. [40:07] Right. [40:07] Well, we did. [40:09] We actually put a declaration of independence together that asked for three things. [40:13] That you're for opening competition, opening primaries, things that would restore competition [40:18] to the system, not the gerrymandering of districts and so forth, to be for solutions, that you [40:25] want to work with anyone. [40:26] You want to take good ideas from both sides of the aisle and make something happen and [40:30] get your s*** done. [40:31] And the last one is accountability, that you'll explain your vote. [40:35] Just simply explain your vote when you take it and why you took it. [40:38] And we think that's pretty low table stakes. [40:41] Well, I want to say one thing. [40:42] There's only one pure independent that basically ran as an independent, governed as an independent [40:46] as governor, and that's Angus King. [40:48] Yeah. [40:48] But there's no support. [40:49] When Angus comes there, you know, he has to pick, well, he picked the Democrat side [40:52] because there was more things that he believed in that would be good for Maine. [40:56] So, we worked together. [40:57] But Angus, you know, if he had a little bit more support, I'm telling you, he's as independent [41:01] as it becomes. [41:02] You can work with him on any issue. [41:03] We just found that there's no structured support for somebody just remaining independent. [41:09] Can you imagine if they don't caucus with either one, what's going to happen? [41:13] They wouldn't get any committee positions. [41:15] Is the committee doing anything anyway? [41:17] No. [41:17] You liked your committee position. [41:19] I liked my committee position. [41:21] I'm allowed you to do it a lot for West Virginia. [41:22] Yeah, but the bottom line is that bills didn't come to the floor. [41:25] We passed things in a bipartisan way, and it was always controlled by the majority leader. [41:29] But they're going to have to vote. [41:30] They can't deny them to vote, and I'll guarantee you, they can go to any committee meeting. [41:33] They want to, and there's going to be times they'll say, boy, if you were just caucus with [41:38] us today, we'd get this passed or that. [41:39] Right. [41:40] They can moderate an awful lot. [41:41] We think it's a way to start bringing the parties. [41:44] I believe the Republican Party wants to be the grand old party again, and I believe GOP, [41:50] but I believe the Democrats would like to be responsible. [41:52] They've got nowhere to go, and they've been pulled to the left and the right. [41:55] Something's got to change. [41:57] They opened the primaries up. [41:58] Let's have competition. [42:00] But now what we can do is get a couple people elected that can sit there and say, [42:04] listen, this doesn't make any sense at all. [42:06] It's not the oath that I took to defend and protect the Constitution. [42:08] It doesn't make sense for my country, and it's not a way to get things done for my state. [42:13] We give them the support once they get there, and we'll change things. [42:16] Heather, could you ever support a self-described socialist candidate? [42:20] No. [42:20] No way. [42:22] My God, no. [42:23] Even if they have some good ideas? [42:24] I support the good ideas, but how could you support some of the crazy stuff they're for? [42:28] Have you seen their platform? [42:30] They're for dismantling everything that we know, whether it be the structure of government, [42:36] Congress itself, or the Senate they want to get rid of, and then they start talking [42:39] about all the crazy things. [42:40] No police, no this, no this, no that. [42:43] Are you crazy? [42:44] We want a crime-free area. [42:47] We have to have police for that. [42:49] We want a strong defense. [42:50] We want a strong border. [42:51] But if Democrats can't say that, and they start lining up with the socialist demands [42:55] about what you are to be a socialist, energy will be gone. [42:59] There will be no energy, okay? [43:00] We have right now a tremendous amount of energy we're producing, and the world depends more [43:04] on us than ever before. [43:06] We can do more. [43:07] I'm sorry. [43:08] Doesn't it surprise you that even leadership in the Democrat Party can't just say no? [43:12] They can't say no? [43:15] Well, they're seeing an appeal, apparently. [43:18] An appeal to the far left. [43:19] But control has now completely outweighed character. [43:24] If you're more interested in control, and that's all that it matters, your vote count, [43:29] versus the character of the person and what the platform they're running on, [43:33] I think we're living with the consequences of that. [43:35] Margaret, the Democrat Party has lost more registration, more people identifying as Democrats [43:39] than ever before. [43:40] So if that was going to be the case, what would be the hope? [43:42] Right now, you have high polls, right? [43:44] Yeah. [43:44] Democrats should be 20, 30 points ahead if that's where the country's going. [43:47] They're not. [43:48] They're still behind. [43:49] The bottom line is we're not getting anything accomplished because the two-party system [43:53] has drowned out everything. [43:54] They have just choked it out. [43:55] Well, when you were talking about why you did not run in 2024 for president, you said you [44:01] didn't want to be a spoiler. [44:03] I couldn't get on all 50 ballots. [44:04] You put me on 50 ballots, and I have a platform. [44:06] I can speak. [44:07] But if I have no chance of winning because I'm only on 16 ballots or 20 ballots statewide, [44:12] national-wide. [44:12] So it was really ballot access versus polling support that would have benefited Trump. [44:17] That's exactly right. [44:17] I would have loved to have been able to sit and say, come on, Donald, do you really believe [44:21] that? [44:21] Is that true? [44:22] Or Joe or Kamala or whatever. [44:24] We had so many differences. [44:26] But there's a way that basically people just want some normality. [44:29] The chaos is just running people's lives today. [44:32] And when you look back in West Virginia and all other rural areas, I mean, the cost of living, [44:36] the cost of groceries, the cost of doing everything, the energy, how you live your life is too high. [44:42] I mean, who are you getting financial support from? [44:46] You have a background in the business community. [44:48] Do you want more sort of small-dollar donations? [44:50] Like, how do you counter some of these? [44:52] No, you're right. [44:53] It's David and Goliath's story for sure. [44:55] But we think, being strategic, we're not trying to get behind 20, 30 candidates. [44:59] We're getting behind a handful. [45:02] A few in Congress, if we could get two or three elected, think of what the difference that [45:06] independent bloc can make, one or two in the Senate. [45:09] So, and yeah, we've seen tremendous support, actually. [45:13] We'd like there to be more. [45:14] I think the business community needs to lean in and not try to put their head in the sand [45:19] and say, well, we hope this passes. [45:21] We need people to get engaged and participate and think it's going to be great for the country. [45:26] Thank you for sharing the initiative with both of us. [45:28] We'll track how it does. [45:29] We'll be right back. [45:30] Thank you. [45:34] That's it for today. [45:35] Thank you for watching. [45:36] Until next week, for Face the Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan.