Rachel Maddow’s full interview with Kamala Harris I MSNBC EXCLUSIVE

[0:00] And thanks to you at home for joining us tonight. We do have Vice President Kamala Harris here [0:03] tonight for her first news interview since leaving office, her first news interview [0:08] since the election. I'm very excited to speak with her. I'm a little nervous about this interview [0:14] because it's a big deal, I'll tell you. I do have one thing to tell you, though, separate and apart [0:18] from that before we get started. MSNBC has just today announced that my new documentary is going [0:23] to be airing here on Friday, October 17th. This is a brand new documentary I've made. It's called [0:29] Andrew Young, The Dirty Work. We're going to have a special Rachel Maddow show here on MSNBC that [0:35] night at 8 p.m. Eastern. It's Friday, October 17th, and then the doc is going to air right after [0:41] the show. So if you just pop that in your calendar for me, if you don't mind, Friday, October 17th, [0:46] I will have more to tell you about it in the days ahead. But it was just announced today, [0:50] so I wanted to let you know. That said, tonight we are going to be speaking with Vice President [0:56] Harris. You may remember there was a sort of mantra in her campaign, a call and response that [1:02] she used in her rallies. She would say, when we fight, we win. She'd say, when we fight, [1:11] and then everybody would say back with her, we win. And of course, what everybody knows now very [1:16] much all too well is that she did not win the election. And her new book is about that. The new [1:23] book is called 107 Days. It comes out tomorrow. It is the story of her 107-day-long campaign for the [1:30] presidency, the shortest presidential campaign in modern history. She describes in the book on page [1:36] one how she learned from President Biden that he would end his campaign and hand the reins to her. [1:43] She learned that news less than half an hour before the whole rest of the world learned it as well. [1:49] She writes about how everybody in Democratic politics responded when she made all her first [1:53] phone calls to tell everybody the news, to ask them for their support. She took notes from those [2:00] calls and she prints the notes in her book, page 17. Bill Clinton says, oh my God, I'm so relieved. [2:07] Send me anywhere. Make this your own campaign. Hillary Clinton, we'll do whatever we can. We'll jump on a [2:12] plane. We'll get on Amtrak. Jim Clyburn says, let's go. I'm all in. Roy Cooper, governor of North [2:18] Carolina says, before you say anything, I'm all in. Pete Buttigieg says, you are going to be a [2:24] fantastic president. Mark Kelly, the senator from Arizona, Vice President Harris writes, quote, he [2:30] tweeted his endorsement even before I reached him. So far, so good, right? But not all the calls went [2:38] like that. And this is the kind of campaign book you might diplomatically call candid, which means it is [2:44] not all nice. And so we also get Vice President Harris's notes on the other responses she got. [2:51] Gretchen Whitmer, I believe you will win, but I need to let the dust settle. Talk to my colleagues [2:56] before I make a public statement. President Obama says in part, quote, Michelle and I are supportive, [3:02] but not going to put a finger on the scale right now. Let Joe have his moment. Think through timing. [3:07] Nancy Pelosi says in part, it's important that there's a process. We have a great bench. We should have [3:13] some kind of primary, not an anointment. Bernie Sanders says in part, quote, please focus on the [3:20] working class, not just on abortion. J.B. Pritzker says, as governor of Illinois, I'm the convention [3:27] host. I can't commit. And then Gavin Newsom, she writes, hiking, we'll call back. And then she puts [3:36] in parentheses, he never did. In 107 days, you get Kamala Harris's thoughts on picking her vice [3:45] president, interviewing Mark Kelly and Josh Shapiro, and then ultimately choosing Tim [3:50] Walls and all the great things that were great about Tim Walls, how much in particular she loved [3:55] Tim Walls's wife, Gwen. But she also writes about why Pete Buttigieg was her personal first choice [4:01] for her running mate. You get her detailed thoughts on how President Biden's age showed when he was [4:07] tired and her view that the White House basically mismanaged that. She says President Biden was not [4:15] incapacitated. He was absolutely capable of governing. And he was, in fact, very good at it [4:20] throughout the entirety of his term. But she also writes that he was not up to the task of campaigning [4:26] well for another term. And she writes about her regret and her frustrations for how that was handled [4:32] by the president's senior staff. I will tell you, this book is going to sell a gazillion, [4:39] bazillion copies. And Vice President Harris's bluntness and clarity on those still very painful [4:45] matters is going to be a big part of why. The book, as I said, goes on sale tomorrow. [4:50] You will read it in one sitting. It is an unputdownable book. You should buy it. But here's [4:57] the other thing about this book and about Kamala Harris in this moment. When we fight, we win. [5:03] I mean, this is where we are right now. These were protests on Thursday and on Friday and on Saturday [5:12] and on Sunday and today, all about ABC taking comedian Jimmy Kimmel off the air after threats [5:20] from the Trump administration, effectively directing them to do so. And those protests were in New York [5:26] and in Los Angeles, yes, but also in places like central Washington state, Yakima, Wisconsin and in [5:34] Mount Kisco, New York. We saw Vice President Harris herself join the calls condemning the Trump [5:41] administration and ABC for doing that. She put out a statement last week calling it an outright [5:45] abuse of power. We saw statements of protests from her, from President Obama, from the former [5:52] president of Disney, ABC's parent company, Michael Eisner. We saw pushback from every other comedian [5:58] in TV who Trump has pushed to get rid of, including Stephen Colbert, who CBS should maybe uncancel now that [6:06] everybody can agree what cowards they were, too. We saw statements of protests from basically all of [6:13] Hollywood and the music business and the unions and the ACLU and every celebrity you've ever heard [6:18] of and people canceling their Disney Plus subscriptions and people who make shows and movies for ABC and [6:23] Disney saying they would never make shows and movies for that company again as long as this decision [6:28] stood. And what do you know? When we fight, we win. ABC this afternoon decided, okay, let's throw this [6:37] in reverse. Jimmy Kimmel will be back on the air tomorrow night. And as for Stephen Colbert on CBS, [6:43] stay tuned. Because of course, his firing is just as indefensible, if not more so. In this new book, [6:52] In 107 Days, Vice President Kamala Harris writes about predicting how bad Donald Trump would be in [6:58] his second term as president. She says, quote, I predicted all that. I warned of it. What I did not [7:04] predict was the capitulation. About the groveling, scared, rich owners of the LA Times and then the [7:12] Washington Post pulling their paper's endorsements of her just before the election. She says, [7:17] the pre-capitulation of these powerful billionaires alarmed and dispirited me. As it turned out, [7:23] they were early adopters. As it turned out, they were early adopters of the feckless posture that [7:30] would be embraced by a raft of business leaders and institutions once Trump was elected. They had just [7:36] been the first in line to grovel. And then she says this about what she'll do next. She writes, [7:43] quote, I wanted a seat at the table. I wanted to make change from inside the system. Today, [7:49] I'm no longer sure about that because the system is failing us. At every level, executive, judicial, [7:55] legislative, corporate, institutional, media, every single guardrail that is supposed to protect our [8:01] democracy is buckling. I thought those guardrails would be stronger. I was wrong. But now, of course, [8:10] the election is over. And with the election now over, the fight that we're in now is to shore up [8:18] those guardrails, to rebuild them where they have fallen, to make powerful people less cowardly [8:24] somehow, to stop people and institutions from capitulating. And if they do capitulate, the job [8:30] now, the fight now is to get them to see they were wrong to do so and to get them to reverse [8:34] themselves. That is the fight now. Kamala Harris says, when we fight, we win. Turns out that may be [8:43] more important than ever after an election that you did not win. Joining us now for her first news [8:49] interview since the election is former Vice President Kamala Harris. Madam Vice President, [8:53] thank you. Thank you, Rachel. It's good to see you. Thank you. It's good to be here. It's weird to [8:56] talk about you with you sitting here and me pretending you're not here. Oh, it was awkward for me, too. [9:00] Okay. How have you been? I am well, all things considered. I am well. How have you been taking [9:07] care of yourself since the election? You know, I have an incredible family. I've been spending more [9:14] time with them than I had for quite some time cooking and writing and reflecting and, you know, [9:21] talking to a lot of people, making a lot of calls, receiving a lot of calls. So I've been busy. [9:26] Let me talk to you about this capitulation thing. It's really landed with me. I feel like we're all [9:31] in the middle of it, but you articulating it in the way that you do. You've become the patron saint [9:35] of I told you so in terms of people understanding the sort of warnings and predictions that you made [9:40] about what Trump would be like. But you say, I predicted all of that. I warned of it. What I [9:45] didn't predict was the capitulation, the billionaires lining up to grovel, the big media [9:49] companies, universities, so many major law firms, I will note, including your husband's. [9:54] Yeah. And he spoke out about it. He's been very vocal in criticizing it. He said they've all been [9:58] bending to blackmail and outrageous demands. Why did you not predict the capitulation? And what do you [10:08] make of the effort to try to put some steel in the spine of those institutions? [10:15] So, as you know, I am a lifelong public servant. But I've worked closely with the private sector [10:23] over many years. And I always believed that if push came to shove, those titans of industry [10:32] would be guardrails for our democracy, for the importance of sustaining democratic institutions. [10:43] And one by one by one, they have been silent. They have been, you know, yes, I use the word [10:55] feckless. It's not like they're going to lose their yacht or their house in the Hamptons. [11:03] And here's the thing. Democracy sustains capitalism. Capitalism thrives in a democracy. And right now, [11:14] we are dealing with, as I called him at my speech on the ellipse, a tyrant. We used to compare the [11:24] strength of our democracy to communist dictators. That's what we're dealing with right now in Donald [11:29] Trump. And these titans of industry are not speaking up. And perhaps it is because his threats [11:41] and the way he has used the weight of the federal government to take out vengeance on his critics [11:49] is something that they fear. And I get that. I understand why they do. We've seen the demonstration [11:54] of it. Perhaps it is because they want to please him and nominate him for a Nobel Prize. Perhaps it's [12:04] because they want a merger approved or they want to avoid an investigation. But at some point, [12:12] they've got to stand up for the sake of the people who rely on all of these institutions [12:20] to have integrity and to at some point be the guardrails against a tyrant who is using the federal [12:34] government to execute his whim and fancy because of a fragile ego. [12:43] I know that your parents took you to protests in a stroller when you were a little kid before you [12:51] were literally able to be there to walk and that you've talked about the civil rights movement and [12:54] its moral legacy being part of your moral core. Yes. [12:59] Um, I feel like a lot of the, um, defenses that we tried to build up in advance of this type of a [13:09] sort of would-be authoritarian takeover were about warning people about how serious the threat was and [13:13] warning people about what this could mean and what we were in danger of. Now that we're up against it, [13:18] though, I'm not sure that we have great skills to actually not warn about it, but fight it. [13:22] And if the problem is the system collapsing and the guardrails, as you say, collapsing and people [13:28] be, people who have power, who ought to be titans, not acting in any sort of titanic way. [13:33] And standing together because there is safety in numbers as the saying goes. [13:37] Yes. I wonder if the American people who are repulsed by what Trump is doing and who are, [13:45] um, in public opinion polling very much against what he's doing, as you note in the book, [13:49] um, are going to be turning their ire and their protest movement and their organizational capacity [13:57] against these institutions that are failing as much as they are against Donald Trump himself [14:02] and the administration. If that's the way the sort of resistance is headed. [14:08] So one back to how you open the show. I mean, talk about the power being with the people and the [14:14] people making that clear with their checkbooks as it relates to the suspension of Jimmy Kimmel. [14:21] We saw the power of the people over the last few days and it spoke volumes and it moved [14:27] a decision in the right direction. I think that part of where we are now in terms of thinking [14:35] about what the fight is, it requires us, yes, to understand that we've got this administration [14:40] and this president in front of us abusing the power that the people vested him with. But we also [14:47] need to understand that this is bigger than Donald Trump. You know, part of what I write about, [14:52] this stuff is decades in the making, Rachel. It didn't just happen overnight. You know, [14:57] so much of what has indeed overwhelmed people, not to mention just scared the stuff out of people, [15:05] is what we are witnessing is a high velocity event. Yeah. We are witnessing something that has been [15:15] happening so rapidly and it feels chaotic. But what I would offer you is what we are witnessing [15:24] is the swift implementation of a plan that was decades in the making, decades in the making. [15:32] Project 2025 didn't just drop out of thin air. That's a product of decades of work. Federalist [15:39] Society, Heritage Foundation. Understand that the implementation of a plan that's about trying [15:46] to get rid of the Department of Education, deregulate industries, weaken the rule of law by over a period of [15:55] time, creating a system and through gerrymandering states so that we would now have the Supreme Court [16:04] that we have. This stuff didn't happen overnight and it did not happen just because of an election in 2024 [16:11] or even 2016. So when we talk about where the fight must go, there is the aspect of it that is about the [16:21] immediate moment, such as the weight of the federal government being used to silence critics, citizens. [16:29] And it must be about understanding that this did not just happen overnight and we have to pay [16:35] attention to an agenda that is not going to necessarily go away when this guy is finally [16:40] turned out of office. Well, let me ask you on that gerrymandering front, the White House has been [16:46] very aggressive, pushing Republican-led states to gerrymander their maps to effectively give [16:52] Republicans a major edge heading into the midterms next year. That has led to related [16:58] Democrat, responsive Democratic efforts, including in your home state of California. [17:02] Do you support Democrats' effort to kind of fight fire with fire there? Will you be involved in that [17:09] California measure, for example? I absolutely support it. You mentioned Gavin earlier. By the way, [17:13] Gavin has a great sense of humor. So, you know, he's going to be fine. Did you warn him about the [17:19] hiking thing? You did. I've known Gavin forever. He literally has a great sense of humor. But let me [17:24] say about what he is doing with redistricting, it is absolutely the right way to go. Part of what we've [17:31] got to, I think, challenge ourselves to accept is that we tend to play by the rules. But I think this is [17:41] a moment where you've got to fight fire with fire. And so what Gavin is doing, what the California [17:47] legislature is doing, what those who are supporting it are doing to say, you know what, you want to [17:54] play? Then let's get in the field, let's get in the arena, and let's do this. And I support that. [18:01] Speaking of a sense of humor, your book is very funny, which I think helps a lot, given that there's a [18:07] lot of this difficult material. I'm going to read something where I have to bleep myself in the [18:12] middle of reading it out loud, sort of. This is the part when Trump told an audience, National [18:17] Association of Black Journalists, told them that you happened to turn black and that you now wanted [18:22] to be known as black. You say, on the plane that day, when I first heard about Trump's remark, [18:27] we patched in Brian Fallon, your senior advisor, communications advisor, on a call to strategize [18:33] a response. Brian wanted me to punch back with a big speech about my racial identity, like the one [18:38] Obama had given. I was so, I'll just say, I was so pissed that I didn't hold back. Are you effing [18:45] kidding me? I was not about to take Trump's bait. He lies all the time, I told Brian. He throws out [18:50] outrageous statements to distract from the real issues. Quote, today he wants me to prove my race. [18:56] What next? He'll say I'm not a woman and I need to show my vagina? I don't even know if I can say [19:02] that. Brian, on the other end of the phone, fell silent. I imagined the deep crimson of his blush. [19:07] All right. So first of all, you made me say it. That really happened. Yes, but [19:12] how do you decide, I mean, in the moment, particularly when it's so ridiculous, it's funny, [19:21] how do you decide when to not take the bait and stay off the terms that he's trying to set for [19:26] the debate and when to punch back? What did you learn about that in the process of going up against [19:31] him? So, you know, Earl, I also talk about, you know, the first two weeks that I was the top of the [19:37] ticket, we had no polling because no polling had been done on me. So it was my gut. Yeah. And [19:42] and so I came up with this speech that actually was about, you know, I was a prosecutor. I dealt with [19:48] people who engaged in sexual abuse. I was attorney general. I took on people who who engaged in fraud [19:55] on and on and on. And so I know his type. I remember this line. Yeah. And because there is, [20:02] you know, there's something about in the English language that that phrase, I know his type that [20:07] does a lot of work for you because it's something we all relate to, whether it was that boss, it was [20:12] that person, whatever. I know his type. And so the character that I knew I was running against is [20:23] someone because he has shown it also. I mean, he did it with President Obama. He did it with Secretary [20:30] Clinton. He throws this stuff out that he thinks will be an individual's weakness or Achilles heel [20:38] with the intent to distract from the fact that, as it was in this campaign, he had no plan for [20:46] actually bringing down costs and prices for the American people. He had very few plans for what he [20:53] would actually do that was about the American people and not about an execution of his vengeance on [20:58] his enemies. And I wasn't about to fall for that bait. And the stakes were too high. The stakes [21:05] were too high. You can't get in the gutter with that guy because that is the way that he distracts [21:12] from the fact that, for example, right now he promised the people who voted for him that on day one he'd [21:21] bring down prices. And I do believe, Rachel, that's one of the main reasons that the people who voted for [21:28] him elected him because they believed he would do it. He lied. We're now in a position where [21:37] unemployment is up. Inflation is up. The cost of groceries is up. So, you know, as the folks used [21:47] to say, don't fall for the okey-doke. Just don't. All right. Lots more to ask you. We'll be right [21:55] back with Vice President Kamala Harris. Her new book is called 107 Days. It comes out tomorrow. [22:02] It's going to be a massive bestseller. We've got more with Vice President Harris. Just ahead. Stay [22:06] with us. We're here live with former Vice President Kamala Harris. Her new book about her 2024 run for [22:15] the presidency is called 107 Days. It's out tomorrow. Madam Vice President, I have to ask you [22:22] about the, I think, the point, the part of your book that has people most upset thus far, [22:31] which is some of your writing about the decision around the president abandoning his re-election [22:38] campaign, the timing there and how it's handled. You say, in part, page 46, it's Joe and Jill's [22:44] decision. We all said that like a mantra as if we'd all been hypnotized. Was it grace or was it [22:49] recklessness? In retrospect, I think it was recklessness. The stakes were simply too high. [22:55] This wasn't a choice that should have been left to an individual's ego, an individual's ambition. [22:59] It should have been more than a personal decision. Whose decision should that have been? How should that [23:07] decision have been made? So when I write this, it's because I realize that I have and had a certain [23:18] responsibility that I should have followed through on, which is, and so when I talk about the [23:25] recklessness, as much as anything I'm talking about myself, there was so much, as we know, [23:33] at stake. And as I write, you know, the, the, where my head was at at the time is that it would [23:42] be completely, it would come off as being completely self-serving. If you said to President [23:46] Biden that you did not think he should run again. Yeah. Or even that he should question whether [23:51] it's a good idea. But I think that, you know, one of the reasons I wrote this book, Rachel, [23:59] is there are actually a number of reasons. One is one that it is unprecedented, right? To your point [24:07] of what you said in your opening, we had a president of the United States running for re-election three [24:15] and a half months from the election, decides not to run. The sitting vice president enters the race [24:21] against a former president of the United States who's been running for 10 years with 107 days to [24:27] go. And it ended up being the closest presidential election in the 21st century. And there was so much [24:35] about those 107 days that for me, and this is really a behind the scenes look at those 107 days, [24:43] was about seeing people who seemingly had nothing in common coming together by the thousands [24:49] with a level of optimism and, dare I say, joy about the possibilities for America. And I hope to [24:59] remind people about that light that people brought to it and to remind people that that light is still [25:07] there. And we can't let that be extinguished by an election or the individual who's in the office [25:14] right now. Because to the point of all those folks who got out in protest about the Kimmel suspension. [25:21] And about everything else that people have protested. [25:23] Right. In the variety of ways, whether it be going to a protest or being, you know, with their pocketbook [25:30] or getting engaged in local and state and federal elections, they'll make a difference. And they've made [25:36] a difference. And I guess the last point is that we've got to really remember that this person who's [25:45] in the White House promised a whole lot of people who supported him and voted for him, that he would [25:52] do one thing, which is bring down costs and prices. And he lied to them. And we need to remember that [26:00] as we move forward with the next series of elections, the midterms are around the corner, that it's not [26:06] just about him by himself. There were others around him who perpetuated that same promise and have not [26:15] followed through. They're about to go into negotiations around the continuing resolution, [26:19] the budget. And I know that that leaders Schumer and Jeffries are going to meet with the president, [26:25] I think, in the Oval Office. And good for them to go there and ask Donald Trump, the president of [26:31] the United States, to justify why he is proposing to cut Medicaid, why he is willing to shut down the [26:40] government for the sake of putting on the backs of working people the tax cut he gave to the richest [26:47] people in America. Do you think that Democrats should vote to allow the government to shut down [26:52] in order to try to extract concessions from Trump on these matters? It won't be the Democrats who are [26:57] shutting it down. It will be the Republicans. The Democrats are doing the job that any elected [27:01] leader should do, which is to say, we're not going to do the bidding of the president of the United States [27:08] at the sacrifice of our constituents' health care. Negotiate. [27:19] You describe in the book something that you called a secret project that you ran as vice [27:24] president that you called the STARS project, identifying up and coming talent in the Democratic [27:28] Party. You'd meet with them, ask them about their interests. You say that more than one of them said [27:33] they felt like they were being called to the principal's office when you asked them to come in. [27:36] But the folks who you met with in this way include some of the people who you see very frequently now [27:43] on MSNBC. Jasmine Crockett, Angela Also Brooks, Maxwell Frost, Robert Garcia Moore. Arguably the fastest [27:51] rising star right now in Democratic politics is Zoran Mamdani, who is going to be elected mayor of New York [27:59] City and probably in a landslide if the polls are anything to go by. Lots of mainline Democrats [28:06] have been very shy about his candidacy. They seem somewhat flummoxed by his success. [28:13] As a sort of talent spotter in the Democratic Party, what do you think of him and his candidacy? [28:20] And what do you think of mainline Democratic shyness and agitation about the prospect that he's going to [28:25] win? Look, as far as I'm concerned, he's the Democratic nominee and he should be supported. [28:32] Do you endorse his candidacy? I support the Democrat in the race. Sure. But let me just say this. [28:40] He's not the only star. I know that he's in New York and I know New Yorkers think they're the [28:45] center of the world. And here we are in New York having this interview. It is the biggest city in [28:49] the country. And I love New York as the saying goes. I really do. But I mean, there are people like [28:53] Barbara Drummond in Mobile, Alabama, Helena Moreno in New Orleans. They're all running for mayor too. [29:00] And they are stars. So I hope that we don't so over index on New York City that we lose sight of the [29:09] stars throughout our country who are right now running for mayor and many other offices, governor [29:13] and and so on. So that's where I am. We've got a big tent and we've got a lot of stars. [29:22] 2026 is shaping up to be an election that is going to be filled with Democratic primaries, though. [29:28] A lot of mainline Democrats in their 70s and 80s are going to be facing challengers in their 30s. [29:35] Yeah. Do you think Democrats are at all justified in their frustration with there being so many [29:43] older Democrats in elected office? Do you think it is time for the oldest Democrats in elected [29:50] office to be thinking kind of wholesale as a category about the need to retire and move on from office? [29:57] You know, I wouldn't overgeneralize on that, meaning that there are some Democrats who are, [30:03] you know, older in age, but very young in terms of how they are thinking and very bold in terms of [30:08] how they're thinking. I think that every one of the candidates is going to be judged based on [30:14] whether they actually have a plan, whether they see the people, whether they're listening to them, [30:18] whether they they offer something that feels dynamic and bold, especially at this moment, [30:23] whether they have the fight in them to fight what we know to be wrong, but also the fight to fight [30:28] for something. I think that's how they're going to be judged. I don't know that the voters are going to [30:32] judge strictly on somebody's age. I have much more to ask you. OK, I'm here. That's Madam Vice [30:37] President. The book is called 107 Days. It comes out at midnight. More with Vice President Harris [30:43] right after the break. We're back with former Vice President Kamala Harris, her new book about her 107 [30:52] day presidential campaign, the shortest presidential campaign in modern history. For all the obvious [30:57] reasons, that book comes out tonight at midnight. Vice President Harris, I want to ask you about [31:03] something that's going on right now in the news. We've had in the last few days two developments [31:08] from the president that are the sorts of things that you were warning about, but now we've got [31:11] them and we have to decide how to contend with them. One is the president directly ordering the [31:16] Justice Department to bring criminal charges against people he perceives to be his political enemies, [31:21] including firing prosecutors who told the administration there was not an evidentiary predicate to bring [31:28] those charges. We've also now in an executive order today, having we've got the president [31:33] describing Antifa, the anti-fascist, it's not even really a movement, the anti-fascist tactics of a [31:42] portion of the protest movement as a domestic terrorist organization. What is your reaction to those things? [31:49] What do you think the appropriate response is to things like that? Well, in normal times, we [31:55] should and could expect that our courts would step in when asked to declare the legality [32:08] or illegality of what the president is doing, because, you know, Civics 101, we all know, [32:17] we designed our democracy through three co-equal branches of government, the executive, legislative, [32:21] and the courts, the judicial. And I would like to believe that that is still something that is [32:30] standing, certainly at the local level. You can see where the various courts have actually provided [32:38] the guardrails against his abuse of power, against President Trump's abuse of power. [32:43] The lower courts have been more inclined to step up. But my fear is that as some of those cases reach [32:49] the United States Supreme Court, that we can't necessarily count on precedent to dictate how [32:56] they will rule on the president's power. And again, Rachel, we talked about this during those 107 days, [33:03] because remember, the court before the election basically said that the president of the United [33:10] States would be immune from whatever he did in office. So he walked in to the White House with what [33:16] he thinks is a blank check. And specifically in the Justice Department, that immunity ruling [33:23] effectively told him he can direct the Justice Department to do whatever he wants, which he is [33:27] now doing on online, telling them to bring baseless prosecutions. But, you know, there are a couple of [33:34] things that have happened this week and every week we should take note when they do. But one, again, [33:38] we've talked about the response to the Kimmel suspension. But the other is that U.S. [33:43] attorney who was appointed by the president is a Republican and said, I'm not doing it. And as a [33:53] former prosecutor, you know, one of the things I know, whether people like it or not, is prosecutors [33:58] for the most part, especially if they've been doing it for a while, are apolitical and take seriously [34:04] their oath to to do justice without fear or favor and to do what they believe is the right thing to do [34:12] based on the facts and the law. And we have seen this week evidence of someone who I'm sure didn't [34:20] vote for me. And we may disagree on a whole lot of other stuff, but he had the courage to stand up [34:27] and say he's going to follow his oath and do what is ethically right. So let's take heart and hope that [34:35] others within the Department of Justice will see that that is, you know, have a have a something that [34:43] steers their conscience. But, you know, I mean, let's not also be distracted by the fact that there are going to [34:49] be the career people who understand that. But then Trump is appointing people to these positions who have no [34:54] experience as a prosecutor. And the closest they have to it is their experience defending him against crimes [35:01] and are now sitting behind the desk making decisions about who should be charged with what. So it is a scary time. [35:10] I don't mean to suggest otherwise, but there are these moments that we should also take note of. [35:16] Yes. And there have been to that point, there have been multiple Trump appointed U.S. [35:20] attorneys who have resigned or left office. Yes, they have. Yes, they have. Yes, they have. [35:25] Let me ask you a politics question. I mentioned in the intro tonight that you say in the book really [35:31] bluntly that your personal first choice for your running mate would have been Pete Buttigieg. And you praise [35:36] him effusively. You say he would have been an ideal partner if I were a straight man. And you say [35:43] effectively that demographically it was it was too much to ask of the American people to ask them [35:48] to elect you with him as your running mate. I wonder if his reaction to that since this part of the book [35:55] has come out, if you've had any reflection on that or I guess I guess I'd ask you to just elaborate [36:04] on that a little bit. It's hard to hear. Yeah. With you running as you know, you're the first [36:09] woman elected vice president. You're a black woman and a South Asian woman elected that high office, [36:14] very nearly elected president to say that he couldn't be on the ticket effectively because [36:18] he was gay. It's hard to hear. No, no, no. That's not what I said, that that's that he couldn't be on [36:24] the ticket because he is gay. My point as I write in the book is that I was clear that in 107 days [36:35] in one of the most hotly contested elections for president United States against someone like [36:43] Donald Trump, who knows no floor to be a black woman running for president United States and as [36:52] a vice presidential running mate, a gay man with the stakes being so high, it made me very sad. But I [37:02] also realized it would be a real risk no matter how, you know, I've been an advocate and an ally [37:11] of the LGBT community my entire life. So it wasn't about, it wasn't about, yeah, right. So it wasn't [37:17] about any, any prejudice on my part, but we had such a short, we had such a short period of time [37:25] and the stakes were so high. I think Pete is a phenomenal, phenomenal public servant. And I think [37:37] America is and would be ready for that. But at, when I had to make that decision with two weeks to go, [37:47] you know, and, and maybe I was being too cautious, you know, I'll let our friends, we should all talk [37:55] about that. Maybe I was. But that's the decision I made. And I'm, and I, as with everything else in [38:03] the book, I'm being very candid about that. Yeah. With a great deal of sadness about also the fact [38:11] that it might have been a risk. Will you consider running in 2028? That's not my focus right now. [38:18] I know it's not my focus at all. I know it really isn't. I'm, you know, I'm just going to, yeah. [38:23] Well, will, let me, I know you're not considering it now, but are you, are you saying when you [38:28] decided you're not going to run for governor of California? Correct. Were you saying you are never [38:33] going to run for anything ever again? Or were you just saying, I'm not going to run for that office [38:37] right now? That was the decision before me. And I made the decision not to run for governor of [38:41] California. By the way, there are a lot of great candidates running and, and I love my state and we [38:48] want somebody to definitely follow in the footsteps of Gavin in terms of standing up and understanding [38:54] the power that California has to, to stand up to what we're saying in DC. [39:00] As politic as you are being in those remarks, you are, um, beautifully impolitic in this book [39:07] in a way that makes it, um, honest. And, um, as I said, candid, um, fun to read. And I think [39:15] really important. I think it is blunt and true. And, um, I commend you for writing it and for [39:21] being willing to go out there and defend it and talk about it in these blunt terms at a time [39:24] we need some real straight talk. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you. I appreciate [39:28] that. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you. Thank you. The book is called 107 Days. It is, uh, compelling [39:33] and funny and a little dishy and it comes out tomorrow. Uh, former vice president Kamala [39:39] Harris is going to be doing 15 city book tour. Uh, if you don't have tickets yet already, [39:43] you should make sure to get tickets to go see her on this journey. All right. We'll be right [39:48] back, uh, after this. Stay with us. All right. That's going to do it for me for now. Now it's [39:56] time for the last word with the great Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence. [40:00] Good evening, Rachel. And that's not going to do it for you right now. You just had the [40:05] biggest interview of the year so far, uh, on MSNBC. So, okay. Tell us everything that you [40:13] discussed during the commercial breaks. I will say I, um, I, I am an awkward person who [40:22] doesn't get along with people very well writ large, just as a general thing about me. I'm a [40:27] permit. I'm a, I'm a, I'm a pineapple who lives under the sea. Um, but I, uh, I get along really [40:33] well with vice president Harris in the sense that I find her easy to talk to. And what that [40:38] means is that when we're off camera, like when we were in the commercial breaks, the conversation [40:43] kind of just kept going the way that it was on camera. We were talking about, um, the, [40:49] what she was saying about Trump, not bringing down prices and the issue about health premiums [40:54] about to go up and Republicans not having any plans to go along with Trump, not having [40:59] any plans and Democrats needing to be able to articulate that and build up their stars [41:03] more than they do. And that there's so much good talent in the democratic party. So it [41:06] wasn't, it wasn't anything juicier than what you got on the air, but she's really fired up [41:11] and ready to go. I will say that. [41:13] So I haven't read the book. Uh, and, and so that passage that you mentioned, uh, that has [41:20] gotten a lot of, uh, controversial coverage, uh, where she talks about, uh, Joe Biden making [41:26] the decision to, to run for, uh, a second term and then it being up to him in the end to decide [41:32] not to. And she uses the word recklessness in that passage. And, and, and tonight in discussions [41:39] with you, she includes herself in that recklessness that she's describing. Does that track with the [41:46] text of the book? Yes, it does. I mean, what she says is she expresses regret for not having [41:54] done more, I think, to help the white house arrive at the right decision about president [41:59] Biden's reelection campaign. Um, but she also explains why in the moment and in situ, she [42:06] didn't feel like she could, she, she kind of makes the case like me of all people. I'm the one person [42:11] who couldn't say step aside, old guy. I'm, I need to be the one running instead of you. Um, but she's [42:18] definitely frustrated with the way that the president's way, the ways decisions were made [42:23] around the president. She doesn't really criticize president Biden himself. She definitely criticizes, [42:28] um, the team around him. But Lawrence, now that I know that you have not read the book, [42:33] do you, have you read the part that's about you? Uh, no, I have not. Do you, do you know this one [42:38] part? Can I read it to you? I, uh, go ahead. Okay. It's page 22. The mythology of America says [42:46] anyone can grow up to be president, but most people don't think that's really possible for them. [42:50] Did I grow up as a kid with a dream to be president? No. My mother told me I could be anything [42:55] and I believed her, but president wasn't on my list. I was in my first year as a senator before it [43:00] crossed my mind. Oddly, as a result of a throwaway remark, Doug and I were home in Los Angeles for [43:07] the weekend, having breakfast at a popular hangout in our neighborhood. When Lawrence O'Donnell walked [43:13] in, he wandered up to our table to talk about the dire consequences of a second Trump term [43:20] quote, you should run for president. He said, I honestly had not thought about it until that moment. [43:26] The idea took root in my imagination. And as a result of running against Joe for the nomination [43:32] in 2019, I wound up as his VP. You did it. You were the one who first put the thought in her mind [43:40] to run for president. So, uh, she reminded me of this, uh, in the middle of her presidential campaign, [43:47] uh, her, her first campaign, uh, when, when she was running against that, uh, democratic primary [43:53] field. Uh, and she's reminded me of it a couple of times since then. Uh, so here's, uh, now that it's [44:01] the public information. Um, it was really, really, really early, really early, really early. [44:07] Okay. Because, um, because, um, she was first elected in 2016, so this would have been in 2017. [44:13] So Trump just having been swearing up. Yeah. Well, so, remember, so, [44:17] so, Kamala Harris is elected to the United States Senate on the same night that Donald Trump was elected [44:23] president. So all Democrats going into that election day who might think about running for [44:30] president all thought that was eight years away because Hillary Clinton is going to be president [44:36] for the next four years. She's going to run free election. No Democrat has a decision to make [44:40] for another six, seven years, uh, at least. That was, that's the way it was before they started [44:48] counting votes on election day. So I actually saw her very, very soon after election day, [44:55] uh, on a Saturday morning at that restaurant that she's talking about. And I didn't just barge in [45:01] to her breakfast. She waved me over, Rachel. I wouldn't, you know me. [45:07] She didn't make it sound like a creep. She didn't make it sound like, you know, [45:10] Lawrence O'Donor slinked over to us. [45:13] Here's the really, here's the really cool thing in that room, okay? And this is Los Angeles and [45:18] she's just been elected to the Senate. She has sunglasses on and she's at the community table [45:24] because she couldn't get a table for two the way like I could, right? Because they know me. And, [45:33] um, and I really have the feeling, by the way, that in that room, even though she's just been [45:38] elected a senator and everybody in that room voted for her, very few people in that room had any idea [45:43] who she was, like maybe nobody. And, and it might've been the sunglasses, but it's also California [45:49] and their kind of distant relationship to politics, even though they vote for people. [45:55] And, and so what I knew was she was going to be under very, very intense pressure very quickly [46:01] about, are you a candidate for president? And she's in a really weird position. And so, uh, [46:07] what I said to her was, um, you have to run and you have to run because the Obama lesson is it's never [46:21] too early. Yeah. And the Biden lesson is there is a second place you have to run. And I left it at [46:30] that and left them to their, to their breakfast. Uh, you know, Joe Biden became, uh, vice president [46:38] by running against Barack Obama for president. Uh, that is how people have, the Democrats especially [46:44] had been picking their running mates, was, was someone who ran against them. And so, uh, you know, [46:50] there, there is a second place in presidential campaigns and that is the vice presidency. And so, [46:57] that I think was based on the calendar when that happened, I'm pretty sure that was the very first [47:02] time anyone, uh, had said anything to her, uh, about that. That's the way that she describes it [47:08] as you being the first person to actually articulate it to her. So, I mean, she was a two-term attorney [47:14] general at that point. She, the campaign that she ran to become the elected DA in San Francisco was [47:20] the most cinematic freaking thing you could possibly imagine. I mean, she'd been through some really [47:24] interesting California political wars, but the idea of not just joining the Senate, but then you [47:30] telling her immediately, no, now you're on the national stage, keep going, don't stop rising. [47:35] Turned out to be a formative thing for her. Well, listen, if I didn't say it, other people were [47:41] going to say it, uh, down, down the line. I mean, I, I knew that it wasn't, it wasn't something that, [47:45] oh, I only heard it in one place. Uh, and it's just, um, it's just because of the calendar that I was [47:50] literally the first person to say it to her, I'm sure. And, and, uh, what I was, was struck by [47:56] in all those campaigns that you mentioned, Rachel, is, you know, here's somebody who won [48:00] every campaign, uh, that she ran in, uh, right up to the United States Senate, you know, and her [48:05] first setback was in that primary, uh, running for president. And so, uh, this, she was a winner [48:12] in California politics, as you know. She was on this program for the first time when she was San [48:16] Francisco district attorney, uh, again, when she was attorney general. And, uh, and, uh, and I [48:22] remember someone, uh, telling me, you know, before I ever knew anything about her, you know, [48:27] someone in Hollywood telling me about her and talking about her, this was, uh, the, basically [48:33] black political Hollywood already knew about her. And they were talking about her as, uh, the term [48:40] they were using was the, the female Obama, meaning a black woman who could go all the way, who could go [48:46] as far as Barack Obama. And then the first time, uh, someone brought me, uh, to see her speak [48:51] somewhere, I saw that and I thought, well, yeah, uh, she could absolutely go all the way. [48:56] Lawrence, what did you make of, I don't know if you saw it as you were sitting down, but I asked her [48:59] at the very end, um, are you going to run for president in 2028? Yeah. What did, what did you [49:03] make of her response? Well, that was the standard, uh, you know, a computer could have done that [49:09] response. That's somebody who has not, certainly someone who's not. But she's not a computer. She has body [49:13] language and, you know, I don't know, but that's, that's, um, that's the answer you give when you [49:20] might and you might not, you know, I, she absolutely might. That's the answer that says in effect, [49:25] I guess the translation for that is I might, that would be the fair translation of that in American [49:30] politics. And I'm so glad you asked it. It was one, it was one of the things as I was sitting there. [49:35] And it's the only thing by the way, cause I never, in your interviews, I'm always just living in the [49:39] interview. And as I was noticing the minutes though, and I thought, I, is Rachel going to ask [49:44] her if she's going to run? And you did. And so, so thanks for that. And I'm sure there's going to be, [49:48] that's going to be one of the headlines that you create, uh, create by that. But, uh, Rachel, [49:54] and by the way, this was, I don't know if it felt this way to you, but certainly for me watching it, [50:00] this was vice president Harris at her best. You, you brought out the best, uh, about her, I think, [50:06] in the way that she, uh, took on every one of these questions that you asked, the way she gave [50:12] each one of your questions a fair response. She wasn't avoiding anything except possibly that last [50:18] one about, are you going to run for president? Uh, it seems very unlikely that at this point, [50:23] her mind would be made up about that. I mean, you, how do you make your mind up about that without [50:27] having some infrastructure to base it on? And we know she doesn't have any campaign infrastructure [50:32] right now. It is interesting. She's doing this very big book tour. She's doing this 15 city book [50:36] tour. She's doing, she says she's structuring it basically to do a lot of listening. Like I think, [50:42] I think she's, she's eager to get back out into the country and start talking to people and listening [50:46] to people again to figure out if it's the right thing to do in part to figure out if it's the right [50:52] thing to do. Yeah. And yeah, this is, this is the way to do it. I think, uh, you know, we can [50:56] remember the Colin Powell book tour, which literally, uh, in the 1990s had people lined up [51:02] around corners and everyone thought this is the biggest book tour we've ever seen. And it was by [51:07] far. Everyone thought he is going to run for president and he didn't, uh, in the end. And so [51:16] I think we'll know, uh, when and if she announces, I think it might be hard to tell, uh, at any point [51:23] before that, but, uh, Rachel, what, what, what else besides page, what is it? 22, uh, about me? [51:31] What else did you discover in the book that I haven't read that you didn't have time for [51:36] in the hour? Oh, there's a lot in it. I mean, the stuff that I'm really focused on, as you know, [51:43] like I'm not, I'm not the world's greatest authority on democratic party politics. There's [51:47] definitely a lot on what's what, how, how things work inside the democratic party, [51:53] different democratic party, um, sort of, uh, capabilities and incapacities, I would say. [52:01] Um, certainly she is bordering on caustic when it comes to describing the political operation [52:07] around president Biden. When president Biden was still running for reelection, she says that the [52:13] political briefings that were run for the campaign, um, I think the actual phrase she uses is made no [52:18] sense to me. Um, she quotes one of her own staffers describing them as a dog and pony show. Um, she's [52:25] just caustic in terms of whether or not the political operation around president Biden was serving him [52:30] well. And so that's interesting stuff. And it's important. I think it's important in terms of [52:35] reckoning, uh, with what went wrong and the timing on everything. Um, but I'm, I'm really also very [52:40] interested. Um, I mean, she's, like you said, she was very successful in California politics, brought a [52:46] really interesting and accomplished resume and history in politics. And as a public servant to [52:53] being a United States Senator, which is what she brought to being a vice president. And therefore [52:56] I'm kind of interested, not just in what she did before, but what her leadership prescription is now. [53:02] And the other thing about which she is utterly caustic is the way institutions and powerful people [53:11] have failed the country. Not just, she says Trump's doing what we knew he was going to do and what she [53:16] told us he was going to do. And she's right about that. What has failed and what has been a surprise [53:20] are the institutions in our country that we expected more from. And that diagnosis, I think, [53:26] is really important. And it's important, not just as like a caption for what's going on. [53:31] It's the, it's, it's the, the prescription for what needs to be done to get us out of this mess. [53:37] We need better institutions. We need better elites. We need better powerful people. And even [53:42] if the Trump administration reacts to protests by sending in the Marines, Disney doesn't. And [53:49] the other institutions that we've got that are failing, the law firms don't, right? The universities [53:54] don't. The other institutions that we've got that are failing are susceptible to public pressure [54:00] and political pressure. And they ought to be, they ought to be being subjected to more of it [54:06] because we need them. You can't just do it without them. We need our institutions and our elites [54:10] to be not capitulating. And so that's the project of the American people who are trying to stand up [54:16] for our country right now. And her articulating it that way is to me just really helpful and [54:22] clarifying and kind of cuts through a lot of the dross that we're otherwise talking about too much. [54:27] Hey, Rachel, you know how we have those digital cameras, uh, the digital, digital, uh, clocks right [54:33] under our camera. I normally look down and it says four minutes after the hour when we've had a long [54:39] chat. It now says 14. So, uh, that's a, that's a record. Uh, but, but before you go, before you go, [54:46] because I, I know you have to go. I want to go back to the very first thing you mentioned in your hour, [54:51] which is your new documentary about Andrew Young. I didn't know you were working on that. I'm [54:56] fascinated by Andrew Young. He's one of the real political pioneers and he had a pretty big career [55:01] before he ever got into politics. Uh, when, when will we see it's on this network on a Friday night? [55:07] I think you said it is. It's going to be, thank you for asking. It's Friday, October 17th. So I have [55:12] this production company, which is called surprise inside. Our first documentary was the one about [55:16] Lev Parnas from Russia with Lev that premiered to a huge audience, uh, here on MSNBC, got nominated [55:23] for an Emmy. It was something I'm really proud of. This is our second documentary project. Um, [55:28] and it's the first of a couple of projects I'm going to be rolling up before the end of the year, [55:32] which are both, I think, um, I think of them as like my homework for what I need to get smarter [55:40] about and what I want to learn more about, what I want to understand more deeply about what we need [55:44] to do next as a country. And one of the things that we've got as a country in this time of need [55:48] is we've got an inheritance from morally upstanding and successful movements, like the civil rights [55:56] movement. And we need to learn from them, not just as inspirations. We need to learn from them in terms [56:00] of how they actually did the work to get done what they got done. We need to know what it means, [56:05] not just to be impressed by their accomplishments, but to actually be in the middle of it, doing it and [56:10] for all, for all of its difficulties and the story of Andrew Young, the reason it's called Andrew [56:15] Young, the dirty work is it's about the fricking day to day dirty work and how hard it is, um, to [56:22] make these things work. And so it's the nuts and bolts, the nitty gritty side of the civil rights [56:27] movement. As I said, it's the first of a couple of projects along these lines that I'm going to have [56:31] coming out this year. But the first one is this documentary that comes out Friday, October 17th [56:36] here on MSNBC. The only way to get a sneak preview of it is to go to the MSNBC live event [56:40] on Saturday, October 11th. We'll be showing some scenes for it. But then the premiere is here on [56:45] October 17th. Rachel, I love that shot of the young Andrew Young that we just had up on the screen [56:51] there. Rachel, thank you very much for chatting with me longer than usual tonight. Really appreciate [56:58] it. Thanks for having me, Lawrence.