NYT: Trump's erratic behavior revives concerns about his psychological fitness

[0:00] PETER BAKER JOINS ME NOW, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES AND AN MSNOW [0:04] CONTRIBUTOR, ALSO REPORTING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, JACKIE ALEMANY, CO-HOST OF MSNOW'S [0:09] THE WEEKEND. PETER, AS YOU PUT IT, KIND OF THE HEART OF THIS ARGUMENT IS WHETHER DONALD TRUMP, [0:14] AND NOT JUST ABOUT THE POPE, BUT THE WAR AND SO MANY OTHER THINGS, WHETHER HE'S CRAZY LIKE A FOX [0:20] OR JUST PLAIN CRAZY, PSYCHOSIS VERSUS STRATEGY AND THE THINGS THAT HE SAYS AND DOES. [0:26] WHAT ARE THE BEHAVIORS FUELING THIS DEBATE? [0:30] YEAH, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT TO POINT OUT THE ATTACK ON THE POPE. I THINK THAT SHOCKED A LOT OF [0:34] PEOPLE. I THINK THE TWEET LAST WEEK OR THE POST LAST WEEK THREATENING TO WIPE OUT IRAN AS A [0:40] CIVILIZATION CERTAINLY SPARKED A LOT OF CONCERN. AND THAT'S WHERE YOU HEARD IT A LOT, [0:46] PARTICULARLY ON THE RIGHT, FROM PEOPLE LIKE MARJORI TAYLOR GREEN, ALEX JONES, KANDACE OWEN, [0:50] PEOPLE WHO IN THE PAST AT LEAST HAVE BEEN PART OF THE MAGA MOVEMENT. [0:55] AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE EASTER POST WHERE HE WAS VERY PROFANE AND TALKING ABOUT [1:01] DESTROYING IRAN, AND I THINK IT'S ALSO JUST LIKE EVERYDAY, YOU KNOW, APPEARANCES. [1:07] HE WANDERS OFF INTO, YOU KNOW, AN EIGHT-MINUTE DIGRESSION ABOUT SNAKES IN PERU, OR HE CONFUSES [1:15] WHERE HIS FATHER WAS BORN, OR HE SUGGESTS THAT THE NEW PRESIDENT OF IRAN IS MORE REASONABLE [1:20] THAN THE LAST PRESIDENT OF IRAN, EVEN THOUGH THERE ISN'T A NEW PRESIDENT OF IRAN, [1:22] IT'S STILL THE SAME PRESIDENT OF IRAN. TALKS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ENDING THE WAR BETWEEN [1:26] CAMBODIA AND AZERBAIJAN, WHICH ARE, OF COURSE, 4,000 MILES AWAY, PROBABLY MEANS ARMENIA. [1:32] AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THIS HAS BEEN SOMETHING WE'VE SEEN WITH HIM GOING BACK A [1:37] DECADE. CERTAINLY DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN ACCUSING HIM OF BEING UNSTABLE FOR A DECADE, BUT IT'S [1:42] FASCINATING TO HEAR THAT CONCERN NOW VOICED IN NEW QUARTERS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN AS PROMINENT IN THAT REGARD. [1:47] AND, OF COURSE, PETER, QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN RAISED A LOT IN THE PAST ABOUT NIXON, RIGHT, [1:51] ABOUT REAGAN, OF COURSE, ABOUT JOE BIDEN. BUT IS THIS DIFFERENT TO THE EXTENT, AT LEAST IN PART, [1:57] BECAUSE WE ARE AT A WAR THAT HE DECIDED TO GO INTO, WHERE HE'S MAKING CONFLICTING AND [2:04] CONFUSING STATEMENTS, AND AMERICAN MILITARY LIVES ARE AT RISK. [2:09] YEAH, AND I THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JOE BIDEN, WHO WAS CLEARLY AGING IN FRONT OF OUR [2:12] EYES. HE WAS SLOWING DOWN PHYSICALLY. HE WAS SLOWING DOWN, YOU KNOW, COGNITIVELY. [2:17] I THINK PEOPLE WOULD AGREE HE WAS, YOU KNOW, LOST HIS TRAIN OF THOUGHT FROM TIME TO TIME, CONFUSED [2:22] NAMES AND SO FORTH. BUT HE WASN'T ACTING IN THE SAME VOLATILE WAY. THAT'S THE ISSUE HERE, [2:27] I THINK, THAT PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, IS NOT THAT HE IS NECESSARILY [2:32] SLOWER PHYSICALLY, BUT IS HE SO VOLATILE, SO ERRATIC, THAT IT'S DANGEROUS FOR THE COUNTRY? [2:38] AND YOU'RE RIGHT, THE TIME OF WAR IS WHEN THAT BECOMES MOST IMPORTANT. IF HE LASHES OUT AT [2:42] POLITICAL FIGURES, YOU KNOW, IN AN INTEMPERATE POST, THAT'S ONE THING. [2:47] BUT TALKING ABOUT WIPING OUT A CIVILIZATION, WHICH WOULD BE, OF COURSE, [2:51] A WAR CRIME, NOT TO SAY THE LEAST, IS ANOTHER THING. [2:54] AND NOW WHAT HIS DEFENDERS WOULD SAY, THE WHITE HOUSE WOULD SAY, OKAY, [2:57] THIS IS JUST STRATEGY, GUYS. YOU'RE GETTING WAY TOO WORKED UP. [3:00] WE KNOW HE LIKES TO BE PROVOCATIVE. HE LIKES TO GET PEOPLE'S ATTENTION. [3:03] HE LIKES TO SAY THINGS TO GET PEOPLE STIRRED UP. [3:05] BUT IT'S REALLY ALL STRATEGY. IT'S NIXON'S MADMAN THEORY. [3:08] YOU KNOW, YOU TELL THEM THAT YOU'RE CRAZY. [3:10] THEREFORE, THEY WILL GIVE YOU A BETTER BARGAIN, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO TAKE A CHANCE. [3:15] AND SOME PEOPLE SAID, LOOK, HE GOT THE CEASE-FIRE BECAUSE HE THREATENED TO WIPE OUT IRAN. [3:20] BUT THERE ARE SOME WHO SAY, LOOK, THAT'S JUST TAKING IT TOO FAR. [3:24] WELL, THERE WAS, JACKIE, THE RESPONSE FROM THE POPE AFTER TRUMP THREATENED TO WIPE OUT A [3:30] CIVILIZATION, AND THAT KIND OF FUELED THIS ESCALATING DUAL BETWEEN THEM. [3:36] AND IN A NEW INTERVIEW, TRUMP REFUSED TO BACK DOWN, INCLUDING BACK DOWN FROM HIS WIDELY QUESTIONED [3:43] EXPLANATION FOR THAT AI-GENERATED MEME DEPICTING HIM AS A CHRIST-LIKE FIGURE. [3:48] TELL US MORE ABOUT THAT. [3:49] YEAH, CHRIS, IN AN INTERVIEW WITH CBS NEWS'S NORAH O'DONNELL, SHE'S THE REPORTER WHO ACTUALLY [3:54] CONDUCTED THE INTERVIEW WITH THE POPE THAT AIRD ON 60 MINUTES ON SUNDAY EVENING, [4:00] HE ADMITTED THAT HE WAS SURPRISED BY THE BACKLASH THAT HE RECEIVED FROM THE RELIGIOUS [4:04] RIGHT AND FROM INFLUENTIAL CONSERVATIVE RELIGIOUS FIGURES, WHO ARE NORMALLY MAGA ADHERENTS, [4:11] AND VERY RETICENT IN GENERAL TO PRETICIZE THE PRESIDENT. [4:15] BUT THIS DID MARK A VERY RARE RETREAT FOR THE PRESIDENT TO ALTOGETHER DELETE THE POST. [4:20] THE LAST TIME SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENED WAS IN FEBRUARY. [4:23] THAT WAS AT LEAST DURING THE PRESIDENT'S SECOND TERM, WHEN HE POSTED A, [4:28] RETWEETED A PICTURE OF A RACIST IMAGE OF PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA AND MICHELLE OBAMA, [4:34] AND THEN BLAMED IT ON A STAFFER GONE ROGUE. [4:36] BUT LAST NIGHT, EVEN AFTER DELEATING THIS TWEET, DECIDED TO DOUBLE DOWN ON HIS [4:42] COMMENTS AND HIS CRITICISMS OF THE POPE. I'M GOING TO READ YOU SOME QUOTES HERE FROM THAT [4:45] INTERVIEW. BUT TRUMP SAID THAT HE'S WRONG ON THE ISSUES. I DON'T THINK HE SHOULD BE GETTING [4:50] INTO POLITICS. I THINK HE PROBABLY LEARNED THAT FROM THIS. I PULLED THAT AS A PICTURE OF ME [4:57] BEING A DOCTOR AND FIXING. THIS IS, AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT REITERATING THIS [5:03] RESPONSE THAT HE'S GIVEN FOR WHY HE POSTED THIS PICTURE TO BEGIN WITH. [5:06] YOU HAD THE RED CROSS RIGHT THERE. YOU HAD, YOU KNOW, MEDICAL PEOPLE SURROUNDING ME. [5:10] AND I WAS LIKE THE DOCTOR, YOU KNOW, AS A LITTLE FUN PLAYING THE DOCTOR AND MAKING PEOPLE BETTER. [5:18] NOW, WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE DECIDED TO BELIEVE THIS, THE PRESIDENT CONTINUED [5:22] TO CRITICIZE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, WHICH WAS THE REASON FOR THE BACKLASH TO BEGIN WITH. [5:28] HE ALSO WENT ON TO SAY THAT HE HAD DONE MORE FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH [5:32] THAN ANY OTHER PRESIDENT IN THE LAST 100 YEARS. AND HE SAID THAT DURING COVID HE GAVE THE CHURCH [5:37] BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND THAT THAT WAS FOR EDUCATION AND THAT IT'S NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO TREAT [5:43] SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN SO GOOD TO THEM. SO, PETER, I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF [5:48] WHAT WE'VE HEARD IN REACTION TO ALL OF THIS FROM SOME MEMBERS OF CONGRESS. [5:52] THE PRESIDENT'S BEHAVIOR OVER THE LAST SEVERAL HOURS AND DAYS IS DELUSIONAL. [6:02] YOU KNOW, TO POST A FIGURE OF HIMSELF DRESSED AS JESUS CHRIST, THAT SUGGESTS THAT HE WANTS [6:11] PEOPLE TO THINK HE'S GOD. THIS IS A SERIOUS ISSUE, WHETHER HE HAS THE CAPACITY TO CONTINUE TO LEAD. [6:16] WHAT IS GOING ON? [6:18] YOU'D HAVE TO ASK A PSYCHIATRIST. [6:23] IT ISN'T EVEN WORTHY OF A CONVERSATION. [6:27] IT'S REALLY WORTH OF A DIAGNOSIS. [6:28] THE WHITE HOUSE DENIES ANY SUGGESTION OF MENTAL DECLINE, AS YOU KNOW, PETER, [6:35] TELLING YOU THAT THE PRESIDENT IS, QUOTE, SHARP AND KEEPING HIS OPPONENTS ON EDGE. [6:40] BUT THEN THERE WAS THE POPE AGAIN WARNING OF THE, WITHOUT MENTIONING DONALD TRUMP BY NAME, [6:46] DELUSION OF OMNIPOTENCE THAT SURROUNDS US AND IS BECOMING INCREASINGLY UNPREDICTABLE AND AGGRESSIVE. [6:53] SO, LOTS OF QUESTIONS BEING RAISED, LOTS OF CRITICISMS [6:57] OUT THERE, BUT DOES IT LEAD TO ANYTHING, PETER? [7:02] WELL, LOOK, YOU'RE HEARING DEMOCRATS TALK ABOUT THE 25TH AMENDMENT. [7:06] AND EVEN NOW, SOME OF THESE FIGURES ON THE RIGHT, WE TALKED ABOUT, [7:08] MARJORI TAYLOR GREEN AND SOME OF THE OTHERS AS WELL ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT. [7:11] THE 25TH AMENDMENT, OF COURSE, PEOPLE PROBABLY REMEMBER, [7:14] IS THE ONE THAT'S MEANT TO PROVIDE FOR REMOVING A PRESIDENT BECAUSE OF DISABILITY. [7:18] IT REALLY WASN'T MEANT FOR THIS KIND OF A CIRCUMSTANCE. [7:21] IT'S NOT SUCH AN EASILY ACHIEVED THING. [7:24] IT REQUIRES A MAJORITY OF THE CABINET, PLUS THE VICE PRESIDENT, TO DECLARE THAT THE [7:28] PRESIDENT IS NOT ABLE TO DISCHARGE HIS DUTIES. [7:31] AND EVEN THEN, BY THE WAY, THE PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE [7:33] THE ABILITY TO APPEAL THAT TO CONGRESS. [7:35] AND CONGRESS WOULD THEN HAVE TO DECIDE, BY TWO-THIRDS VOTE, [7:39] THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT AND THE CABINET ARE WRONG. [7:41] SO IT'S NOT REALLY A MECHANISM THAT IS PLAUSABLE HERE. [7:45] IT'S JUST A WAY OF PEOPLE MAKING A POLITICAL POINT, I THINK, BECAUSE THERE IS NOT [7:49] REALLY A WAY TO ADDRESS A SITUATION IF THE PRESIDENT IS SEEN TO BE ERRATIC AND VOLATILE. [7:58] THIS IS SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY, LOOK, YOU KNOW, HE'S ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY. [8:01] YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE MAKING TOO MUCH OUT OF THIS. [8:04] BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU RIGHTLY POINT OUT, THIS IS A TIME OF WAR, [8:08] AND THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES THAT GO BEYOND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE'S FEATHERS BEING RUFFLED.