MS NOW Highlights - July 30

[0:01] As you know, the Trump administration significantly cut the staff at CP3, which you worked with, which led to your resignation. [0:08] Is that true? [0:10] Senator, there is no more office at all. [0:12] The entire thing was dismantled on the final two people left on September 11th and 12th. [0:16] So the prevention effort you're describing to us is now no longer funded. [0:21] That is correct. [0:22] Are you concerned about the potential rise in attacks that we may see without similar level of inquiries taking place under this administration? [0:29] Senator, I've given my life to protecting American people. [0:33] I'm incredibly worried about the rise of targeted violence and terrorism across the ideological spectrum at the same time that we've dismantled the very apparatus that can prevent it. [0:43] Hi again, everyone. [0:46] It's now five o'clock in the East. [0:48] That man is William Braniff. [0:49] He is a counterterrorism scholar who directed that he was the director of the Center for Prevention Programs and Partnerships or CP3. [0:57] It was a division of DHS established by the Biden administration and then gutted by Donald Trump soon after he became president for a second term, leading to Braniff's resignation in protest. [1:10] The cutting of CP3 is among the many actions this administration has taken that are the focus of a new report by Democrats on the Senate Homeland Security Committee, [1:19] which calls out the undoing of critical counterterrorism infrastructure, leaving this country more vulnerable to threats. [1:26] From that report released by Michigan Senator Gary Peters, quote, [1:30] Since the first day of his second term, President Trump and his administration have dismantled critical national security agencies and programs [1:39] and diverted significant resources and attention away from the fight against terrorism. [1:43] These actions are the result of a combination of ideologically motivated firings and realignment of personnel and the wielding of government resources [1:52] from grants to counterterrorism authorities as a weapon against political opponents. [1:58] The administration's actions have left Americans far more vulnerable to a potential terrorist attack [2:03] and left law enforcement officers and agents without the tools to protect our nation. [2:09] MSNOW's reporting of the senator's examination makes note of this, quote, [2:13] The report says the Justice Department and the FBI have lost more than 15,000 employees, [2:19] including many experienced national security professionals. [2:23] Others have been reassigned, including the entire staff of the FBI's domestic terrorism operations section, [2:29] which provided operational support to all 55 FBI field offices in investigating domestic terrorism threats. [2:37] MSNOW has reached out to the White House, the Justice Department, the FBI and DHS for comment. [2:42] Meanwhile, this week saw the confirmation of Jay Clayton as the director of national intelligence, [2:48] a man we already know from his congressional testimony will go to great lengths to tell Donald Trump what he wants to hear. [2:54] And the current DHS Secretary, Mark Wayne Mullen, has a history of comments encouraging violence. [3:00] During his confirmation hearing in March, he said dueling was still allowed in the Senate, [3:05] to which Senator Rand Paul quickly corrected, saying it has been illegal for 170 years, [3:12] all fitting into a portrait of an administration that does not prioritize safety or American security much at all. [3:20] As the report summarizes, quote, [3:22] That is where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. [3:47] MSNOW justice and intelligence reporter, Ken Delanian, is with us. [3:51] Also joining us, senior political analyst, host of the Runaway Country podcast, [3:56] and the author of the substack, How the Hell with Alex Wagner. [4:01] Alex Wagner is here, and former deputy national security advisor to President Obama, [4:06] now co-host of Pod Save the World. [4:09] Contributor Ben Rhodes is back. [4:10] Ken Delanian, take us through your reporting. [4:13] Nicole, you know, as everyone knows, the U.S. government remade itself after the 9-11 attacks [4:19] and just completely reoriented priorities. [4:22] The FBI was reimagined, put tons of resources into the fight against terrorism. [4:27] We made a lot of mistakes. [4:28] A lot of things we did were imperfect. [4:31] But 25 years after 9-11, when you look back on what the U.S. government did, [4:37] there were many successes. [4:39] The U.S. government essentially defeated al-Qaeda and prevented another catastrophic terror attack [4:44] and unraveled plot after plot. [4:46] And the FBI, in particular, got very good at getting inside terror plots [4:50] and stopping them before they metastasized into something that was very dangerous. [4:55] And what this report says and compiles is what we've been covering as a slow-rolling disaster. [5:01] But this report puts it all together, [5:02] is that the Trump administration has been systematically dismantling a lot of the counterterrorism tools [5:10] that we've relied on. [5:11] And it's not even clear that they're doing this intentionally. [5:14] It's a collection of policies that is resulting in making, as Senator Peters, the author of the report, [5:21] said, making Americans less safe. [5:23] And it starts with the hemorrhaging of experienced counterterrorism professionals [5:28] from places like the FBI and DHS and the Justice Department. [5:33] 38% of the lawyers in the National Security Division are gone. [5:37] These are the people who presided over the war on terror, [5:40] who learned how to prosecute these cases and how to handle FISA warrants [5:45] and do all of the legal intricacies of prosecuting the war on terror [5:49] while maintaining Americans' rights. [5:52] And then the other part of this report is it describes the way that the administration [5:57] is focusing almost entirely in a domestic context on left-wing extremism [6:02] while completely ignoring and not even mentioning in its latest counterterrorism strategy [6:07] the very real problem of right-wing extremism. [6:10] And that actually has been the more acute terror threat in recent years [6:15] is homegrown domestic violent extremists. [6:18] And it really feels like we are leaving ourselves essentially much less prepared [6:24] for potential threats. [6:26] And we won't know it until it happens. [6:28] That's the really scary part about this. [6:30] We don't really know how bad this is and how unprepared we are as a government [6:33] for the threats that exist, Nicole. [6:37] Kendallini, and it was Christopher Wray who testified before Congress [6:40] in September or October of 2020 [6:42] that by far the greatest threat to the homeland [6:44] was domestic violent extremism and within that bucket [6:48] the largest group was racially motivated white supremacists. [6:52] So did they go away or are we just not tracking them anymore? [6:56] They're not even mentioned. [6:58] The white supremacists are not even mentioned in the latest [7:01] Trump administration counterterrorism strategy. [7:04] And that just shows that this is more about ideology than anything else. [7:09] And again, look, we all know it's not in Donald Trump's interest as the president [7:12] for a catastrophic, horrific terrorist attack to happen on his watch. [7:16] But the sum total of the policies that his administration is implementing [7:20] is making that more of a risk. [7:23] Professionals across the spectrum will say that. [7:27] And in part, it's a blinkered ideology, [7:30] the idea that government is always bad. [7:33] And it started with Doge and coming in and just taking a meat axe [7:36] to these agencies without regard for the kind of people that they were driving out. [7:41] And then, of course, the ideologically motivated firings. [7:43] A lot of the FBI agents who worked the cases against Donald Trump [7:46] happen to be some of the most experienced counterterrorism [7:49] and counterintelligence agents, and they're gone now. [7:51] And you can't replace that kind of expertise. [7:54] So it's a really bleak picture, Nicole. [7:58] Alex, you've done some incredible reporting yourself [8:01] through the militia movements. [8:04] Let me show you a little bit more of what William Braniff said [8:08] about our vulnerabilities on the extremism front. [8:13] All of us have vulnerabilities. [8:15] And if those vulnerabilities go unaddressed, [8:17] we could wind up being manipulated into engaging in violent extremism. [8:21] We did 1,172 interventions. [8:24] Think about that. [8:24] 1,172 interventions for individuals who are exhibiting risks of violence. [8:29] They were making veiled threats of violence. [8:32] They were socially isolated. [8:33] And those interventions were across the ideological spectrum. [8:39] Some people were flirting with white supremacy. [8:41] Some people were flirting with anti-government extremism. [8:44] Some people were just flirting with violence for violence's sake. [8:46] The point is, we didn't wait until something terrible happened [8:49] and then blame the ideology behind it. [8:52] We actually did a therapeutic intervention. [8:55] And in 94% of those interventions, the individual got help. [8:58] And there was no violence. [9:00] In 6%, they had made a threat to public safety that was imminent [9:03] or they had crossed a criminal threshold, [9:05] and they were referred to law enforcement. [9:07] So we supported those individuals, [9:09] averted nearly 1,200 potential acts of violence, [9:13] and never sacrificed public safety. [9:15] I think they described that as staying left of boom. [9:20] I mean, this suggests that we're all far, far away from any sort of environment [9:28] where that's even the government's aim. [9:31] Yeah. [9:32] I mean, in the report from Mike Rogers today is not bedtime reading [9:36] because it will leave you a freaked out, to say the least. [9:39] In addition to the hemorrhaging of qualified and, I think, key rules [9:43] inside the institutions themselves, they've canceled or otherwise politicized [9:49] a billion dollars of federal money that's meant to shore up public safety [9:54] and national security at the state level, which is often, I mean, that's almost, [9:59] in terms of targeting and really zeroing in on homegrown terror and terror threats, [10:05] state-level monitoring is essential in all of that. [10:08] And instead, as you just discussed a second ago, they're focused on Antifa and cartel organizations. [10:15] Antifa, as a domestic terror organization, does not exist in law, [10:19] something the report points out. [10:21] And their war against the drug cartels, which basically amounts to public executions [10:26] of fishermen in the Caribbean, according to Trump's own DEA, [10:31] has had no measurable impact on the cocaine trade. [10:34] They've just killed 226 people in boats since last September and called it a win. [10:40] I mean, not only are they destroying the institutions from within, [10:44] those foolish, idiotic, and misguided efforts that they do engage in are also failures. [10:50] I mean, it's just like a catastrophic level of failure on every front. [10:54] With the future of the Justice Department on the line, [10:58] let's bring in senior investigative reporter Carol Leninck, [11:01] MSNOW senior White House reporter Vaughn Hilliard, [11:03] MSNOW senior congressional reporter Ali Vitalei is on Capitol Hill, [11:08] and MSNOW legal analyst and former acting assistant AG for national security, [11:13] Mary McCord. [11:14] What a power panel. [11:15] Vaughn, I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. [11:18] The president would rather torpedo his own nominee's confirmation [11:22] than put in writing that the so-called anti-weaponization fund is dead. [11:27] That's accurate. [11:28] That's what's just happened. [11:29] Those were the demands of John Cornyn and Tom Tillis and the president of the United States [11:33] and the Department of Justice were unwilling to affirm to them that they were willing to [11:38] make that concession. [11:39] We're talking about a $1.76 billion slush fund. [11:43] They call it anti-weaponization fund, but essentially $1.76 billion that they would be able [11:48] to dole out to people that they claim were unfairly treated by past Department of Justices [11:54] and by past, you could even say, attorneys general, or, you know, you could go down to Fulton County. [12:00] You could talk about folks that were involved in the J-6 insurrection. [12:05] The list goes on. [12:06] And the president of the United States wanted that slush fund. [12:09] And back in May, the Department of Justice announced as part of its settlement with the IRS [12:13] that they were going to get it. [12:14] But the second part of it is that acting capacity, too. [12:17] And I know everybody can go more into the technicalities of the law, but it actually, [12:22] I was going back to some old notes here, Alicia, back in 2024, when he was running for president, [12:27] Donald Trump Jr. was urging his dad to go the route of acting attorney general. [12:32] He was very specific, saying that, quote, it would send that shot across the bow or the swamp. [12:37] But also people like Mike Davis and Jeffrey Clark, they promoted the concept of using acting attorney generals, [12:42] saying that it would be more efficient. [12:45] And Trump himself, he said, as you know, I like acting. [12:47] It gives you greater flexibility. [12:49] Back in 2019, Chad Wolf was his acting DHS secretary, ended up serving into 2021, despite the GAO, [12:56] in a court having found him to be serving unconstitutionally. [12:59] And so we actually thought this was going to be happening sooner than later. [13:01] But Donald Trump seemingly now with Republican opposition up on Capitol Hill, he's turning to the exact tactic using somebody in acting capacity that he was he and his team and his legal allies around him during the 2024 campaign were setting him up to do. [13:16] And it seems like he's just sort of saying, you know, go out with normal standard form of governance. [13:21] We're going to do this our own way. [13:22] OK, so let's put a pin in that because I want to game out what that might actually look like. [13:26] But I am not done yet, Ali Vitale, with the fact that just a few hours ago you had senators on the Hill, Senator Cornyn in particular, [13:33] trying almost to shield the president from being the one who had to take responsibility for this. [13:38] Let's listen to what the senator told you and then talk about it on the other side. [13:44] Every time I think we're getting close to a resolution, somebody throws a wrench into the work into the work. [13:50] So we this morning, it looks like we're no closer than we were before. [13:57] If they're not able to give you the narrower look at that IRS immunity deal, does that mean you're willing to vote no? [14:04] I think I'm prepared. I am prepared to vote no. [14:07] But I do. I do think I owe it to my constituents and to Mr. Blanche to try to negotiate in good faith. [14:19] Have you talked to the president? [14:20] No. [14:21] Would a call from him help? [14:24] Yeah, he could fix this in a minute. [14:27] But I don't know whether who he's listening to or whether he's motivated to do that. [14:32] OK, one, I just got to say, Ali Vitale, I love seeing you in your natural habitat. [14:36] Two, amazing to me that the senator says someone keeps throwing a wrench into this, tries to not point fingers at the president. [14:43] Trump then goes on his own social media platforms and says, let them know it was me. [14:48] What do you make of what's happening right now? [14:51] I actually thought it was interesting the way that Tillis began that interview saying, well, it's someone. [14:57] And then he actually directly said the president is the person who could fix this. [15:01] And so whether or not he thinks that it's Trump's lack of motivation to fix it or that he's listening to the wrong people, he did directly lay it at the feet of President Trump in a way that I had not heard previously, either from Cornyn or from Tillis. [15:14] And so I do think that's notable because it directly draws the line for folks between the idea that this is a negotiation for Todd Blanch to ultimately shut down this settlement and then get the job of full time attorney general. [15:26] But it is very much something where Trump was always indirectly looming over it. [15:30] And now Cornyn has directly attached him. [15:32] And so I think that that's notable and instructive. [15:34] A few minutes after talking to Senator Cornyn, I talked to Senator Tillis. [15:38] And what both of them say is that the hang up right now is that apparently DOJ, whether it's Blanch or others negotiating around him, don't want to actually put this in writing. [15:47] And, of course, putting it in writing is the whole point. [15:50] And it's so that someone else can't come back and revive it. [15:52] Now, what Trump is doing is he's banking on partly what Vaughn is talking about, which is this idea that he can put people well outside the Senate confirmable mainstream into some of these cabinet positions if he just skips the process altogether. [16:05] And certainly, given the ways that he's treated the Senate and the House over the course of the last year and a half, I could see us getting there pretty soon. [16:11] At the same time, though, he's also banking on using the Senate calendar and saying, OK, if Cornyn and Tillis want to have a problem with this right now, I can keep Todd Blanch exactly where he is. [16:20] I'll just keep him as acting. And when they're gone at the start of the next Congress, I will bring back Todd Blanch's nomination. [16:26] He could do that. And that is him using the calendar to his advantage. [16:29] And I think the question that it all begs is, why is he so loathe to give up on this fund, which is not just the 1776 slush fund, but also that IRS immunity deal that basically means he and his family won't have to worry about audits or anything from the IRS? [16:45] And I think that is really the central pinpoint as someone who's covered him for the last 10 years. [16:49] The tax returns were always central to this, not giving them up, not showing them. [16:53] And then, of course, talking about how not paying taxes made him smart. That's something he always used to say. [16:58] You know, one of the things that you are missing, Ali, as you stand in the rotunda and I get to be here on set with Carol and with Vaughn is that Carol treated all of your commentary like pop of video, whereas you were speaking. [17:08] She's like, that's exactly right. That is the question. Answer Ali's question for me. Why is he so loathe to give this up? [17:14] Well, again, I got props to Ali when I saw her interview Cornyn and get that information like in real time. Amazing. Great reporting. So proud of you. [17:24] But you're also right, Ali. It's definitely the taxes. That is the obsession. [17:32] I have to say something that I know is going to ring in Mary's ears in a different way than for everybody else. [17:37] But like the whole point of the Department of Justice is to put things in writing and the fact that they don't want to put in writing what Todd Blanche has said before Congress. [17:48] One, this deal is dead. We have no more weaponization fund. Nobody can claim any money from it. [17:54] The fact they don't want to put that in writing tells me Donald Trump still wants to play with that idea or wants to offer it or wants to tease it. [18:02] And that's what senior administration officials have been saying to us. Two, why doesn't he want to put in writing and answer Cornyn and tell us his questions about paring down the incredibly broad immunity that a federal judge has already questioned the legality of as part of this settlement? [18:19] Why doesn't he want to put in writing paring it down? Because Donald Trump is obsessed and has been in the 10 years I've been covering him, too, with ensuring that the evidence that investigators have already gathered of what they have described as a 20 year conspiracy to defraud the IRS and to downplay his ultimate liability does not rise back and bite him or members of his family. [18:44] Mary, your name was evoked. So I want to go to you next. I think one of the things that is easy to get lost in all of this is the extent to which DOJ is coordinating with the executive. [18:54] Talk to us about how usual, unusual that is. And then I'm going to ask you to be the one to talk us through the timeline of what it could look like, what how long Todd Blanche could actually serve as acting AG. [19:07] Yeah. Yeah. So Carol's right. I mean, DOJ, of course, when I was there, we put everything in writing there. It's a bunch of lawyers. Right. No other place has that many lawyers in one place. [19:18] And what do lawyers do? They put things in writing. And I think it's notable also the line of questioning from Senator Cornyn and others during the confirmation hearing that talked about, isn't this settlement agreement a binding agreement? [19:32] Right. And that would mean and Todd Blanche had to admit, well, yes, it is. So that would mean that a party, say, the plaintiff, Donald Trump, Donald Trump Jr., his other kids, his organization could sue for a breach of that settlement agreement. [19:47] If, you know, they say, where is this fund that was supposed to be created? Now I'm being investigated, you know, for an IRS audit. Right. Like there could be litigation over that. [20:01] So you've got to wonder, is part of the not changing this in writing in order to keep an agreement out there that would provide a basis at some future point for Donald Trump to actually sue, to actually have that agreement be enforced. [20:16] Now, this is in front of a judge who's already said the settlement was a collusive scam. Right. [20:22] Because of the coordination between the Department of Justice and and the president, who himself was on both sides of the case. [20:30] So I'm not sure that a breach of settlement agreement would go very far in front of this judge. [20:35] But it has to be it's something we have to consider, because what is the reluctance here to put things in writing? [20:40] And to your question about how long could Todd Blanchard serve a long time, I mean, for starters, two hundred and ten days. [20:51] But when a nomination is rejected or pulled, that restarts the clock and another acting can go another acting appointment can go for two hundred and ten more days. [21:01] Besides that, he is somebody who has been Senate confirmed before. [21:05] So there are additional rules that apply. [21:07] So the bottom line is a very, very long time. [21:11] Ali Vitali, I'm told you have an update for us from Senator Cornyn. [21:14] Well, in response to the Trump Truth Social post that we started talking about, where Trump is hanging this squarely on Tillis and Cornyn, [21:23] Cornyn responded on X in just the last few minutes saying POTUS is mistaken. [21:26] If he believes concerns about the provisions in his tax lawsuit settlement are limited to me and Senator Tillis. [21:32] And I think what's notable about this is that we talk about Tillis and Cornyn and to a slightly lesser extent, Bill Cassidy and others who are part of this. [21:40] We call them the YOLO caucus. [21:43] YOLO live once. [21:44] But really, I think lately it's been YOLO leverage once. [21:46] They've ultimately gotten to yes, but they've extracted some things that they want out of whatever the negotiation at hand has been. [21:52] These are the folks that aren't coming back. [21:54] And so I think it's important for us as we talk about not just Blanche, but why they might not have the votes on the so-called SAVE Act, [22:00] that these are the folks that are out front kind of taking the political arrows because they're not coming back. [22:05] Their political calculus is different. [22:07] But they might be doing that on behalf of other quieter members in more difficult races than they have that have their own reservations, [22:15] but can't be as vocal about it because of politics back home. [22:19] Elon Musk says he's going to try to buy another election. [22:21] The former trillionaire will reportedly spend another nine figures trying to elect Republicans in November, per The New York Times. [22:28] That's on top of the $260 million he spent getting Trump reelected in 2024. [22:33] Of course, he can't go and say that the world's richest man is also one of the world's most vociferous and vocal bigots. [22:39] And if you're not paying attention, maybe it doesn't look like he's spouting off absolutely vile, hateful stuff all the time. [22:44] Lots of the tweets on the social media platform he owns are like this. [22:48] You have said the actual truth. [22:50] True. [22:51] Or simply yes. [22:52] You get a lot of that. [22:53] But what's he posting that on? [22:55] When he says you have said the actual truth, he's responding to the claim, quote, [22:58] Jewish communities have been pushing dialectical hatred against whites. [23:03] When he says true, he's promoting a post comparing the woke left to Adolf Hitler. [23:07] When he says yes in its response to a meme from a racist movie with the text, first the traitors, then the invaders, [23:13] an apparent nod to themes found in the neo-Nazi screed The Turner Diaries. [23:19] Jamel Bowie is an opinion columnist from The New York Times, where this week he asks, [23:22] why do we tolerate Elon Musk's racist commentary? [23:24] Good question. [23:25] And gee, he joins me now. [23:27] Jamel, I loved your column. [23:28] And it asked a question that I'm wrestling with. [23:30] What do you make of the strangeness of how explicitly racist he is? [23:37] How extreme he is? [23:38] And sometimes, you know, sort of toying with approval of violence and the sort of lack of a response to it. [23:48] I asked the question in the column, but I myself am not entirely sure that I have a satisfactory answer. [23:55] It's very strange. [23:57] As you point out, if you just scroll through his replies and see what he is replying to, it is truly vile stuff. [24:06] You mentioned The Turner Diaries. [24:08] I talked about it a bit in my column. [24:10] The ideological, you know, miasma that Musk has plugged into is very much from the same corners of the far right as The Turner Diaries. [24:21] And it's just right there. [24:22] It's like it's not hidden. [24:24] It's right in front of you. [24:25] And so why is it that so many commentators and politicians and such just don't treat it as if it's a thing? [24:33] Perhaps it's because people think it's, you know, not appropriate to call this stuff out. [24:40] Perhaps because they think it sounds like you're being hysterical if you call this stuff out. [24:46] But as I note in the column, you can make a good case that these views aren't just a quirk that Musk has, but have like material effects in the world. [24:58] The destruction of the United States Agency for International Development last year by Musk, he bragged on his ex-accounts about putting it in the wood chipper by Musk, is estimated at this point to have claimed over up to 700,000 lives, largely in places like sub-Saharan Africa. [25:17] And to my mind, it's hard not to see a connection between his enthusiasm for destroying programs like USAID and his views. [25:26] Yeah, let's let's play it. I mean, he is this is something that's been interesting. [25:31] He has been kind of very defensive about those estimates about what is done and not just estimates reporting. [25:38] I mean, multiple outlets, including New York Times, has done great work on this of actually going to places and like talking to a mom who lost her child because the maternal care she had funded through AID was cut off, as an example. [25:51] He was recently interviewed by the editor-in-chief of The Economist, who he later called an enemy of the West. [25:57] And she they have this exchange. Take a listen. [26:01] So you don't buy the idea that anybody and to put it really crudely and simply any kid in Africa died because of the suddenness with which zero. [26:09] I just don't think that's right. There were huge numbers of things shut down in Africa that were that were health related of this. [26:16] These claims are false. Zero died because of that. [26:21] You see this sort of reality distortion field there, too. Right. [26:26] He's got his platform. He's got a trillion dollars and he he's just going to bully his way through what the facts are. [26:33] Right. Right. He refuses to take responsibility for anything. [26:37] I mean, it's it's interesting. Right. [26:40] It's clear that according to his ideology, he shouldn't be upset if all these people died. [26:48] And yet he seems to know that if it is the case that all these people died, it does reflect, to put it lightly, incredibly poorly on him and his legacy. [26:58] And it may even be the kind of thing that overshadows the legacy he wants to have, which is of industrialist technologist person who's bringing humanity to the future. [27:09] If, in fact, what his legacy is, is the needless deaths of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people, then it erases everything he's done prior and everything he does after. [27:22] That's it. That's what he's known for. [27:24] There's a strange asymmetry happening where you're watching this situation happen in which every Democrat in the country has to answer for the views of the Democratic Social of America platform created by a bunch of people whose names I don't even know that that produce some documents on a Web site and everyone has to respond to it. [27:46] Elon Musk is the single biggest Republican donor, I think, at this point. [27:50] I mean, he was he backed Donald Trump for two hundred sixty million dollars is going to be tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars again. [27:56] And somehow no one has to answer for that. [27:59] There's no like that. [28:00] But that the most powerful person, the richest person in the world spouting off things like first the traitors and the invaders was an image of a gun, meaning first you shoot the leftists and then the immigrants. [28:11] No, no one's got to know. [28:12] No Republican has got to answer that, apparently. [28:15] Part of me wonders if this isn't part of maybe a larger pathology in political media, which is that Democrats haven't made hay of this. [28:25] Right. And so if Democrats don't make hay of it, there's sort of this thing where, oh, well, we're not going to make hay of it on their behalf. [28:31] People have to make hay of it. [28:32] And then Republicans will answer and you'll cover the back and forth. [28:36] You'll cover the controversy. [28:38] Now, as I say this, I don't even find it that persuasive, because, again, I think you're right. [28:42] If there were a DSA member who said anything, even remotely as as as as reprehensible, as Musk says on the regular, every Democrat in the country would have to answer whether or not they agree with it. [28:58] So I'm with you. [28:59] I find I find this so strange. [29:04] And I don't have an adequate explanation for it beyond sort of idle speculation. [29:10] Right. Like in terms of evidence for something, I don't have a good explanation for it, but it is a phenomena. [29:17] Yeah. And to come back to where we started, I do think part of it is the weirdness of the replies in the context of sometimes very sort of a little bit of strange, like impenetrable memes. [29:29] So like that image of Armie Hatter, like you have to know the movie and the movie's context is created by like conservatives. [29:34] And it was his sort of his post cancellation thing. [29:36] And it's about an invasion, the immigrants and a sort of vigilante fantasy. [29:40] And a lot. I will say that a lot of his stuff is, yes, exactly. [29:44] So you've said the truth in response to like fairly convoluted right wing memes. [29:50] And I do think that's a little bit what we're showing right now. [29:52] That's a little bit of what is is insulating them. [29:55] But your column, everyone should go check that out. [29:57] Jamel Bowie, as always, a pleasure, sir. [29:59] Thank you. Thank you. [30:01] Here's how badly Donald Trump's week is going in Washington, just through facts. [30:07] One, Trump cares more about the attorney general position than just about anything else in government. [30:12] It is the fulcrum of his efforts to break the rule of law, to punish and indict enemies and to have sort of favorable treatment of what he perceives to be his vulnerabilities, tax audits and the like. [30:23] You've probably heard about that in the news. [30:25] That's number one. Number two, today was a scheduled vote in a Republican controlled Senate to confirm his attorney general nominee. [30:36] And as a reminder, most of Trump's cabinet has been pretty straightforward, pretty easily confirmed by this Republican Senate. [30:41] And yet, if you've been watching the news, the top of this broadcast or really any news lately, you might have heard that Trump is crashing in approval. [30:48] Republicans less afraid of him, don't need to work with him as much, depending on the issue. [30:51] And that brings us to point number three, the plan to install controversially his former personal criminal defense lawyer as attorney general is derailed. [31:01] That scheduled vote off. So that right there is a loss or a setback in the plan. [31:08] If they had the votes, we know how Congress works. They would have voted today. [31:11] Translation, they don't have the votes and we have more evidence on that. [31:14] But this has been derailed. Donald Trump's plans not going the way he wanted. [31:18] And the fear of crossing him is fading. [31:24] Trump says in response to this setback that maybe he would just pull the whole nomination, [31:29] which is a kind of ploy to leave Todd Blanchett in his acting AG. [31:34] Then the midterms would come. Trump is hoping they hold the Senate. [31:38] And then the two senators causing the most problems who he primaried would be gone. [31:41] And he hopes replaced by more loyal Republicans. [31:45] But that itself is a gamble that requires them winning the midterms, which is really up in the air, [31:51] especially when you look at the polling and the war. [31:54] Cornyn responding that there are other senators that have similar concerns. [31:57] They just haven't been flushed out in public, which is an interesting point we will discuss tonight. [32:01] What he's basically saying is he's the heat shield. [32:04] Other people oppose this, but they don't need to get into a party civil war if the nomination is already stalled. [32:11] And that came hours after Cornyn sent the DOJ a new proposal to try to resolve this sort of fake made up settlement deal [32:19] that Trump claims would immunize him and his family from future audits. [32:23] All of this tied up as well in the plan to try to give out money to Magi allied convicts. [32:29] Now, Cornyn told reporters already that the way things are going, meaning as of that moment, [32:35] he was just going to vote no on the AG nominee. [32:37] Every time I think we're getting close to a resolution, somebody throws a wrench into the work. [32:46] So we, this morning, it looks like we're no closer than we were before. [32:53] I am prepared to vote no, but I do think I owe it to my constituents and to Mr. Blanche to try to negotiate in good faith. [33:07] And that's what we've been doing. [33:08] The sound you hear is of a Republican actually using a little bit of their power as a co-equal branch to govern and regulate the executive branch [33:21] and one that many people say has become a runaway executive branch. [33:25] Now, we'll leave it to the side for now, whether Cornyn could have done this. [33:28] I don't know. [33:29] Any time in the last six years, he lost his seat anyway. [33:32] But that's where we stand. [33:34] Now, the Republican majority leader, Thune, is still trying to work with Trump to come up with some resolution before this long summer recess begins, [33:41] which sort of would put a fork in the whole plan. [33:44] Here's how Politico, a nonpartisan outlet, puts it. [33:47] Thune, leaving the door open to getting Blanche confirmed next week if the senators are able to come to a deal with the DOJ. [33:53] But, and this is crucial, Politico writes, Cornyn and Tillis have yet to blink. [33:58] Trump is threatening to take his ball and go home. [34:03] That would be, obviously, a very public loss in a very key agency, the Department of Justice, [34:09] all because these senators decided to stand up for something. [34:13] So, not your normal narrative. [34:15] A little bit different. [34:15] I want to bring in Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel, former Mueller prosecutor. [34:19] He has lived the intersection of the DOJ and Congress. [34:23] When Congress is doing its job, it can exercise a productive type of oversight. [34:27] That's why we see people, including the attorney general, testify. [34:30] Lately, I think a lot of folks are skeptical or cynical about the whole thing. [34:35] We'll put to the side Cornyn's newfound constitutional responsibility. [34:40] We can do it in three minutes. [34:41] But for now, what's happening here? [34:44] And do you see this as a type of progress? [34:48] Look, it is, as you said, it is a loss. [34:51] Even if ultimately he is confirmed in short order or upon a new Senate, if the Senate is [35:03] still controlled by Republicans, it is still a loss. [35:07] But having said that, the idea that you have Senator Thune and others willing to confirm [35:15] somebody, where the hill that two senators have chosen to die on, where they have drawn [35:23] the line, is such small potatoes. [35:27] This is somebody who has subpoenaed the New York Times and his own lawyers have had to go [35:35] to court and say, we made mistake after mistake and we didn't even read the leading case on point [35:42] and so we're in violation of law. [35:44] And then the Department of Justice issues a press statement saying that the judge is wrong. [35:50] After a court appearance where they had to admit over and over again how it was the Department [35:56] that violated the law, you have Todd Blanche, Department of Justice, trying to indict six [36:02] sitting members of Congress. [36:04] You have them in trying to open a criminal investigation into Jerome Powell and the Federal Reserve. [36:09] You have them in violation of the Epstein Transparency Act. [36:14] You have a federal judge who said that Mr. Abrego Garcia was vindictively prosecuted and laying [36:20] the blame clearly over and over again at the feet of Todd Blanche. [36:25] And you have a federal judge who has referred Todd Blanche and what the bad faith conduct in [36:31] connection with this so-called settlement slush fund to the Bar Association for the nominee [36:37] to be the head of the Justice Department. [36:40] And yet you have just two Republican senators saying that there is a problem. [36:48] Well, paraphrase Tucker Carlson, as I am wont to do. [36:51] We had a big pun earlier quoted in the show, but Tucker said about this moment in the Trump [36:55] era very accurately, and we're supposed to pretend this is normal? [37:00] I mean, there is nothing normal or in bounds about this kind of attorney general. [37:06] And whether people like to hear it or not, the president is fully entitled to nominate [37:11] a qualified attorney general who has strong conservative policy views. [37:15] Absolutely. [37:15] Jeff Sessions was, at the time, one of the most right-wing voting members of the Senate, [37:20] but he did, by all accounts, follow the DOJ rules, went through a confirmation process. [37:26] Here you have someone who, as you're pointing out, is already on a rampage against the rule [37:30] of law against the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, probably, depending on how you view [37:35] the subpoena abuse, and a heck of a lot of other rights and rules. [37:40] And so you kind of say, yeah, to get back to the Cornyn of it, if I can nerd out with you. [37:46] Yeah. [37:48] Yeah. [37:49] If this flies, then what the heck? [37:52] I want to play a little bit of this was Trump and Cornyn, because this has become their [37:56] standoff. [38:01] Maybe you have said that the weaponization fund is a moot issue. [38:06] Is that your position? [38:08] At the time, that has nothing to do with it. [38:14] This is about making sure that even if you're the president of the United States, you don't [38:21] get favorable terms from the government in a settlement of a lawsuit that ordinary citizens [38:28] would not get. [38:28] You know, it's a combination of lawyerese and Washingtonese. [38:33] The way he says that, I mean, I have it written here. [38:35] You don't get favorable terms from the government in a settlement of a lawsuit that ordinary [38:37] citizens would not get. [38:39] It's all. [38:40] No, you don't get to corrupt the entire Justice Department to do self-enrichment that can [38:45] endanger the public good. [38:48] Yeah, absolutely. [38:48] Remember, the general release that is at issue here was signed by one and only one person, [38:56] Todd Blanche. [38:56] And Todd Blanche, at his confirmation hearing, made it absolutely clear, and frankly, to his [39:02] credit, that he is no Elliot Richardson, that the way he is going to run this Justice Department [39:08] is, if the president says I should do it, I'm going to do it, period, the end. [39:13] You know, Elliot Richardson famously was the attorney general who said, when Richard Nixon [39:19] said, fire the special counsel, Archibald Cox, he said, no, I'm not going to do it. [39:24] Find yourself another patsy to do that. [39:26] Todd Blanche made it very clear. [39:28] And frankly, now the reporting on what we're seeing in connection with this new James Comey [39:33] indictment, that's exactly what happened, where the White House was behind all of it. [39:37] And he is saying, that is the new model. [39:40] I am throwing out the sort of traditional Republican and Democratic model post-Watergate [39:46] is not how Todd Blanche is going to run this. [39:49] And again, that should be, just to get back to sort of this idea of normalization of it, [39:54] that should be something that Republican and Democratic senators should be saying no to, [40:01] because, you know, the next president can be a Democrat and it will be just as bad if the [40:06] Department of Justice is just doing what the White House is saying that you should do in terms of [40:12] who to prosecute and who not to prosecute. [40:14] It's like, that should be something that people should be able to coalesce around. [40:19] The president's vote for his attorney general nominee, Todd Blanche, was scheduled for today [40:24] and canceled, derailing a process that has sort of taken on a life of its own. [40:29] Andrew Weissman is back with us. [40:30] So Trump says, all right, if I can't win back these Republicans who have these low [40:35] standards you already discussed, they won't even meet them. [40:38] He says, oh, we'll just leave Blanche's acting AG and next year I'll get new Republican senators [40:45] he expects to replace these ones to vote with him. [40:48] That means they would hold the Senate. [40:50] What do you view as Trump's calculation here and how would this actually work? [40:53] So there are a couple of things. [40:55] One, he can bet on the fact that the Republicans will hold the Senate. [40:59] But, you know, that's a risk. [41:02] It may not happen. [41:03] In which case, you could easily imagine the Democratic majority saying no and saying, [41:12] you know what, you have to have somebody who is more moderate. [41:16] For instance, somebody who believes in the post-Watergate norm of being independent or who [41:21] doesn't seek to indict six members of Congress for asserting something that's protected by [41:28] the First Amendment. [41:29] I mean, I could go on and on. [41:31] So that's one. [41:33] Two, he could, even if the Republicans lose the Senate, he can keep the acting attorney general [41:44] as acting for as long as possible. [41:47] And there is a lot of complication about the law when we could really nerd out on that issue. [41:52] The United States has launched major strikes against Iran after the country fired ballistic [41:58] missiles at U.S. forces in Jordan. [42:01] President Trump had promised retaliation after the attack by Tehran, saying, quote, [42:07] we're going to be hitting them very hard because it's our turn. [42:11] The strikes come as the war enters its sixth month. [42:16] And amid reports of growing frustration inside the White House, NBC News reports Trump has [42:21] become increasingly exasperated by the length of the conflict and Iran's refusal to reach [42:29] a deal. According to the report, Trump recently erupted at top national security officials over [42:36] his frustrations with one official saying there is no unity within the Trump administration on Iran. [42:42] The White House denies the president lost his temper, but says he remains committed to punishing [42:48] Iran until its attacks stop. Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia has joined U.S. operations with strikes on [42:56] Iran-backed groups in Iraq. Saudi Arabia accused Iranian-backed militias of attacking Saudi oil [43:03] facilities. But so far, no group has claimed responsibility. And in Egypt, two ships caught fire in an [43:11] explosion at a port in an incident. One maritime security firm says may have been a drone [43:17] attack, though that has not been confirmed. [43:20] So, Katie Kay, you know, Henry Kissinger's insight that when you're in the White House and making [43:28] decisions on war and peace, the choice is never between a good decision and a bad decision. [43:34] It's between two bad decisions and you have to pick the poison. Boy, that has never applied more, [43:41] I think, than to where President Trump is right now. We're in a war. We can't cut and run as much as [43:48] Republicans want him to cut and run because then that defines that region for maybe a generation [43:53] and Iran becomes the dominant player. But there doesn't seem to be a military solution as well. [44:01] And now it's really expanding out into regional warfare. Talk about our allies, how concerned they [44:08] are that now Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region have been pulled into this war. [44:14] Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Yemen. This was the fear when I was speaking to people who were experts [44:22] on proliferation in that region about a month or so ago. They said the problem is that this has left [44:27] it far more vulnerable because you have these tensions. Now you've got tensions not just between [44:32] the Iranians and the Gulf states. You also got tensions within the Gulf states between the Kingdom [44:36] of Saudi Arabia and the UAE. It's surfaced all of these long running economic and security tensions. [44:43] The Saudis don't want the Israelis to be helping the Gulf states with any kind of defensive measures, [44:48] which they were doing early on in the war. So I think we really do have a situation now where [44:53] if this does not get resolved diplomatically with serious negotiators, with experts who understand [44:59] what proliferation is in the region, then we are in a position where this could expand beyond what was [45:06] initially seen as just a strike by the Americans and the Israelis against Iran. And you've got the [45:11] prospect longer term of nuclear proliferation in the region as well. It's very you're right. Kissinger [45:17] was right. If it gets the president's desk, it's probably because there's no easy solution anyway. [45:22] But the easiest solution would have been just not to go in. And now that they are in, [45:26] they've got to find a way diplomatically to get out of this. [45:28] No doubt that was the original sin going in. But we are there now. And, you know, [45:36] the fact that Egypt has now been brought into it, the fact that the Saudis have reluctantly decided [45:41] they're going to have to engage aggressively, it expands into a regional war. Let's bring in right [45:48] now a decorated combat veteran and former commander of the U.S. Army Europe, retired Army Lieutenant [45:53] General Mark Hurdling. He's an MS now military analyst general. Of course, the decision was made [45:59] to go into Iran. And people on this show, I'm sure you, everybody else said the president shouldn't [46:09] do it. The president did it. So we aren't here now. If the president calls you into the Oval Office [46:16] today and says, General, what the hell do I do? I've got Vance and others telling me I need to cut [46:23] and run. I've got Marco. I don't know if Marco is telling him this or not. And others on his side [46:29] telling me I need to double down, that we can't be weak. We can't leave an empowered Iran. [46:35] What what direction should I go in? What do you tell President Trump this morning? [46:41] Well, the first thing I would say, Joe, is to be careful of your your language. I'm going to go to [46:47] what Mika said a minute ago. His his comment in the Oval Office yesterday, which struck me, was [46:52] we're going to be hitting them very hard because it's our turn to hit them. We are stuck in a back [46:59] and forth. It's tactical, proportional responses. And let's talk about the target list of what they [47:05] hit. Let's all take our hymnal out and say military command centers, missiles and drone facilities [47:11] and surveillance sites along the coast. That's what they've been hitting now for five months. [47:16] So my advice to the president is you can't keep doing the same things you're doing. And you've got [47:24] to be very careful with our allies like Saudi Arabia, striking targets outside the area of [47:30] operation. You know, one of the things I would share with them, first of all, is because of my [47:35] experiences in Iraq. When you have Saudi Arabia striking popular mobilization front proxies inside [47:43] of Iraq, you're further disrupting that government. And when you say that that word PMF or those those [47:50] three letters PMF, the popular mobilization front, there's about 60 of those groups inside of Iraq, [47:57] from the Badr Kor, Al Haqq, Katab, Hezbollah. You know, it is a Star Wars bar scene of fighters. [48:05] And when you start fighting them, then the Iraqi government, which would like to stay out of this, [48:11] has to get involved inside their own territory. So you now have Egypt, as Kadi just said, Jordan, [48:18] Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Iraq, all of them are joining into this fight. So you got to find a [48:27] way to narrow it down. And the only thing I can tell the president is you've got to get away from [48:32] the bombing. You're not going to kill your way out of this. You've got to get some good negotiators in [48:38] there and basically show a little humility to Iraq, even if or excuse me, Iran, even if you lose some [48:45] things in the process. So general, so military, obviously, giving them half a trillion dollars, [48:54] making them the strongest country in the region is not the answer. The MOU, I think, was a disaster. [49:00] But also, you're saying you can't, there's no military victory here, ultimately, certainly not [49:06] from the air. So is the middle ground possibly squeezing them economically and continuing to [49:15] squeeze them economically until they come to the table? Yeah, I think it's the use of all elements [49:21] of national power, Joe. It's not just the military. You can use that as a stick, but you have to also [49:27] use, to a degree, the economic power of the United States against them. But you also have to help the [49:34] world get involved in this, too, with sanctions. It isn't going to just be the United States. [49:39] We had an indicator that the UK last weekend was going to start a council of discussion with us. [49:45] That seems to have dissipated. I'm not sure where that is or where it went. But it's going to take [49:51] not only the economic and the diplomatic, but the informational piece as well. The president can't [49:58] he can't stop talking about this on Twitter and what he's going to do or true social and what he's [50:04] going to do next. That's part of the informational power. You can't keep threatening a regime that [50:10] doesn't seem to want to believe your threats. And by the way, you have to understand, too, [50:15] the way Iran is coming at this. They have multiple sources of their nexus of power. You're not just [50:23] dealing with their negotiators. You're dealing with a rabid IRGC. You're dealing with a population [50:29] that now thinks we are the great Satan because we've been bombing them for four months. And we [50:35] have no economic leverage at all whatsoever and no alliances to help us. So from the beginning, [50:40] this has been disruptive. But now it's even getting worse because the president continues to do [50:46] the same thing he's been doing for five months and expecting different outcomes. And we're showing [50:51] right now on the screen the things that the Defense Department wants us to see, which I continue [50:57] to call war porn. I don't care if a truck is blowing up like it just did just now. What is the effect? [51:03] What is the political outcome of all those explosions? And right now there is none and there hasn't been [51:10] for a very long time.