Mother Testifies in Court Over Alleged Conspiracy to Kill Son-in-Law — Full Testimony

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Mr. Frasemart, please proceed. [00:00:02] Speaker 2: Thank you, Your Honor. Tracy, you've heard the testimony of this trial, is that right? Yes. You've been here throughout all the proceedings. [00:00:17] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:00:18] Speaker 2: And you've heard the testimony of each and every witness. [00:00:22] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:00:24] Speaker 2: And in your trial, this is your opportunity, in your case, this is your opportunity to tell your story, isn't that right? Yes. Have you had your opportunity to say that to anyone but your attorney prior to that? [00:00:37] Speaker 3: No. [00:00:39] Speaker 2: So let's start then, Tracy, with June 20th, 2024. Do you remember that day? [00:00:48] Speaker 3: I do. [00:00:49] Speaker 2: And what happened on that day? [00:00:51] Speaker 3: My daughter, Kate, Alice, Kate, Kate Rosalie, my daughter Kate, came to my home with her two little ones. They were three and seven at the time. And she was going to stay with me for a week, two weeks, three weeks. It was not really clear exactly how long. And she was having marital struggles, and I offered her a safe space to think things through. [00:01:24] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:01:26] Speaker 2: This came as a surprise to you, didn't it? [00:01:28] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:01:29] Speaker 2: You didn't know that she was coming out to Utah before June 20th? [00:01:32] Speaker 3: No, I knew she was coming about probably three weeks she was really planning. [00:01:41] Speaker 2: Okay. [00:01:41] Speaker 3: So about three weeks-ish, maybe a little more. [00:01:46] Speaker 2: And so during those three weeks before June 20th, was there a plan formulated on how to get her to Utah? [00:01:53] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:01:54] Speaker 2: And what was that plan? [00:01:58] Speaker 3: She had put some things into a storage unit that my daughter, Tara Lynn, had secured. In that storage unit were two types of things. The first were things that she would need to come and stay with me for a couple of weeks. So favorite blankets, kids' favorite things, and clothing to wear while she was in puddle jumpers, things that she would use for a couple of weeks in the summer. The other type of things she put in the storage unit were things that she perceived might be in physical jeopardy if she were to leave them at home with her husband. She was leaving Matt and coming to stay with me without telling him beforehand. [00:02:53] Speaker 2: Did you know that? [00:02:54] Speaker 3: I did know that. [00:02:56] Speaker 2: And so she had moved some stuff to the storage unit for things she was going to bring with her to Utah, and she had also moved some stuff to the storage unit that she was afraid might be damaged if she left. [00:03:09] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:03:09] Speaker 2: Were you aware that her leaving in the way she did could create volatility between her and Matt? [00:03:15] Speaker 3: One hundred percent, yes. [00:03:17] Speaker 2: Were you aware that she was not telling Matt she was going to Utah? [00:03:22] Speaker 3: Yes, I was aware. [00:03:23] Speaker 2: Were you aware when she told Matt she was going to Utah? [00:03:26] Speaker 4: Judging leading, you're all leading. [00:03:30] Speaker 2: Was she aware when, I didn't ask what was said. Was she aware when she was- [00:03:36] Speaker 1: I think you've been leading up to it, yes. Some of your questions before that have been leading as well, so let's just watch it more carefully. [00:03:45] Speaker 2: Were you aware Kate told Matt she went to Utah? [00:03:50] Speaker 3: I knew when Teralyn had created a text for Kate to send to Matt. Kate had left her home, I think it was about 10 a.m. in the morning, and she was due home about 5 p.m. because she had said that she was going to go to her friend's house to do some work and to socialize both. So about the time she would be due home is when she sent the text to Matt that said something to the effect of, I'm going to Utah to stay with my mom for a few weeks. I don't remember what else it said, but it was like a paragraph text. [00:04:37] Speaker 2: It was a text sent to Matt, right? [00:04:39] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:04:39] Speaker 2: And that text is actually included in the exhibits the state has offered to the jury, isn't that right? [00:04:44] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:04:45] Speaker 2: And so on June 20th, around 5 p.m. California time, is when you understood that text went out. [00:04:54] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:04:56] Speaker 2: And did you have an occasion to talk to Kate during her trip from California to Utah? [00:05:05] Speaker 3: Yeah, a little bit, not tons. [00:05:08] Speaker 2: Did you have an opportunity to talk to Kate during the weeks before her leaving about her plans? [00:05:14] Speaker 3: Yes. Because I had to, she didn't have a credit card to rent a car. And so I had to add her as an authorized user and then mail her the card so that she could rent a car to drive out safely to my house. Okay. [00:05:29] Speaker 2: So you had actually sent her a credit card? [00:05:32] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:33] Speaker 2: And how long after she received the credit card did she leave to come to Utah? [00:05:39] Speaker 3: One day, two max. [00:05:41] Speaker 2: And how long did it take for you to send the credit card to where she actually got it? [00:05:46] Speaker 3: It took probably a week all told that by the time I called the credit card company, added her, and then they sent it to me and I sent it to her. So probably it took a little over a week maybe. [00:06:00] Speaker 2: So my question was, how long did it take for you to send Kate the credit card before she received it? [00:06:07] Speaker 3: Oh, probably a day and a half, two days, because I sent it to FedEx. [00:06:12] Speaker 2: Okay. So the credit card company sent you the credit card, even though it was in the name of Kate. [00:06:18] Speaker 5: Right. [00:06:18] Speaker 2: And then you FedExed it to Kate in California. [00:06:21] Speaker 5: Correct. [00:06:21] Speaker 2: Okay. And so did you ever have an occasion to talk about Kate and Matt divorce? [00:06:32] Speaker 3: Yes. I talked with Kate about getting a divorce. Yes. [00:06:36] Speaker 2: Was that before she came to Utah? [00:06:39] Speaker 3: Yes. Definitely before she came to Utah. [00:06:41] Speaker 2: And after she came to Utah? [00:06:42] Speaker 3: And after she came to Utah. [00:06:44] Speaker 2: Was it your understanding that Kate was going to live in Utah for the rest of her life when she came? [00:06:51] Speaker 3: It was my understanding that she was going to stay with me for a few weeks to figure out step one, step two, step three on the process of a divorce. And she did say that she would prefer to move to Utah. And to my mind, that would happen in about a year, because she had to go through the steps of getting a divorce. [00:07:23] Speaker 2: So when she arrived at your home on June 20th, do you remember when she arrived? [00:07:29] Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like one in the morning. [00:07:31] Speaker 2: Okay. So early, early in the morning. And what was her accommodations? She stayed at your home. [00:07:37] Speaker 3: She stayed at my home. [00:07:39] Speaker 2: What were her accommodations? [00:07:40] Speaker 3: I gave her my bedroom. Her and Steele slept in my queen-size bed. And then I put a mattress on the floor for Cheyenne, who is seven. And I slept downstairs in the basement on a mattress, an air mattress on the ground, because it made more sense for Kate to have access to the bathtub and the larger bathroom for the kids' sake and to be able to be comfortable for them to sleep. [00:08:09] Speaker 2: Is it fair to say that you gave Kate and the two kids the master bedroom suite, which had a bathroom, and then you moved downstairs? [00:08:18] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:08:19] Speaker 2: Okay. So that master bedroom had its own bathroom. [00:08:22] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:08:23] Speaker 2: Upstairs, who lived upstairs? [00:08:25] Speaker 3: Upstairs was my primary bedroom, and then that was Kate. Kate was occupying a guest room that Kevin was still staying in, because he had been with us for two and a half years. And then Rory's bedroom, Aurora, and then another bathroom for Aurora and Kevin to use. [00:08:50] Speaker 2: So upstairs, three bedrooms, two baths. [00:08:53] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:08:54] Speaker 2: Master bedroom had its own bath. [00:08:55] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:08:56] Speaker 2: And then Kevin and Rory would share the hallway bathroom? [00:08:59] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:09:00] Speaker 2: Okay. And you said you slept down in the basement? [00:09:03] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:09:03] Speaker 2: And who slept downstairs? [00:09:05] Speaker 3: Jacob had a bedroom downstairs, and down the downstairs basement there was a TV area with a couch and Xbox TV, and a place where we had a pool table, and then it was Jake's bedroom. And so I was sleeping next to the pool table. [00:09:24] Speaker 2: On an air mattress. [00:09:25] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. [00:09:26] Speaker 2: Did you consider this to be a long-term arrangement? [00:09:28] Speaker 3: No. [00:09:30] Speaker 2: And when Kate got there at one in the morning, did she move her stuff upstairs? [00:09:38] Speaker 3: Yeah. She just unpacked her stuff and put it upstairs. And I bought the next day, I think I bought little plastic drawer things so that she could have the kids' clothes in there so she could get it out of the little plastic drawer organizers instead of having them in a suitcase. [00:09:58] Speaker 2: Was there something else in your bedroom that you had to move? [00:10:02] Speaker 3: Oh, to make it safe for the children, I did have a gun safe underneath my bed that had a gun in it, as well as passports and birth certificates, immunization records, a little bit of cash. And I moved that from underneath the bed to the shelf in the garage. Actually, I asked Kevin to move it because I wanted it at especially high so that it would be out of reach. Because even though it had a coat on it, it worried me. [00:10:35] Speaker 2: So this is a safe, is that right? [00:10:38] Speaker 3: This safe, it's about this big. [00:10:41] Speaker 2: Maybe a foot and a half by five inches high? [00:10:46] Speaker 3: The safe, it was of the size of a legal pad, but it was only about that deep. It was only a couple inches deep. Okay. [00:10:55] Speaker 2: And it had a keypad on it? [00:10:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:10:57] Speaker 2: And that keypad had to have a code? [00:10:59] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:11:00] Speaker 2: You've heard the testimony of Tim today? [00:11:02] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:11:03] Speaker 2: Tim has advised he access the gun safe? [00:11:07] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:11:08] Speaker 2: Are you surprised by that testimony today? [00:11:10] Speaker 3: No. [00:11:11] Speaker 2: Why not? [00:11:13] Speaker 3: The only person that didn't have access to the gun safe was Rory, my daughter Aurora. She, 18, 19 years old, I was just being cautious. [00:11:24] Speaker 2: Did Kevin have access to the gun safe? [00:11:26] Speaker 3: Yes, he did. [00:11:27] Speaker 2: What was in the gun safe besides a gun? Well, I guess you've testified. If you could remind me, I'm sorry. [00:11:33] Speaker 3: Passports, some cash, birth certificates, immunization records, and some social security cards. I think there were some divorce papers in there as well. [00:11:46] Speaker 2: From your divorce? [00:11:46] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:11:50] Speaker 2: And so, if we go back, in time now, there was a trip planned in early 2024 to Disneyland. [00:12:02] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:12:03] Speaker 2: Did you instigate that, or did others instigate that? [00:12:08] Speaker 3: Kevin and I came up with the idea together. [00:12:12] Speaker 2: And why did you do that? [00:12:15] Speaker 3: Because Kevin had come to stay with me from Chicago, and so he was close by. And I wanted to give him something to look forward to. And I had all these kids who were in a place where we could transport them from Utah to California with relative ease, as opposed to as they got older and maybe kids were getting spread out more. So, we chose, I chose to give it to them. I think we started planning it back in January, the prior year, maybe October, November. So, the prior year. And then, and it was supposed to be a Christmas gift for 2024. But the trip wasn't going to happen at Christmas. It would happen in February because crowds were less in Disney in February. [00:13:13] Speaker 2: Did all the family know about this Disney trip? [00:13:16] Speaker 3: A hundred percent. I wasn't, I didn't want to make it a surprise because it took too much planning. And part of the fun and part of the gift is planning for it. Buying custom t-shirts. [00:13:33] Speaker 2: Do you do custom t-shirts for the whole family? [00:13:36] Speaker 3: Yes, we did. [00:13:36] Speaker 2: You heard Tara Lynn talk about having t-shirts for all the kids? [00:13:39] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:40] Speaker 2: Including Lucas, Matt's oldest son? [00:13:42] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:43] Speaker 2: How old is Lucas at that time, do you think? [00:13:45] Speaker 3: Lucas was 18 or 19. And I'm not sure, I think, I do not believe he was living with Matt and Katie at that time. I think he had moved out. [00:13:57] Speaker 2: So, how old was he? [00:13:59] Speaker 3: He was probably 19. [00:14:00] Speaker 2: Okay, thank you. And did you have an occasion as the Disney trip came closer to have a dispute with Matt? [00:14:12] Speaker 3: Katie was having a, yes. [00:14:15] Speaker 2: And tell me, how did that dispute originate? [00:14:18] Speaker 3: So, I don't know what Kate and Matt were arguing about specifically until a day or so later, but Matt was mad at her because he was suspicious of her cheating on him. [00:14:31] Speaker 2: Had you heard of Matt? Had you heard of that before? Yes. And how did you hear of that before? [00:14:35] Speaker 3: Katie told me. [00:14:36] Speaker 2: She told you she cheated on him? [00:14:38] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:14:40] Speaker 2: Had you ever heard of Matt and Katie arguing about that prior to this time? [00:14:45] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:14:46] Speaker 2: So, was that sort of a theme for a short time? [00:14:48] Speaker 3: It was. And from what I understood, it was a one-time thing. It wasn't what I would have considered. [00:14:57] Speaker 2: Remember my question? [00:14:58] Speaker 3: Tell me again. [00:14:59] Speaker 2: Was that a theme that you have heard prior to that day of her telling you? [00:15:04] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:05] Speaker 2: And so, had she expressed to you their disputes about that issue previously? [00:15:10] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:13] Speaker 2: During that time, what did Kate tell you was going to happen because of this dispute? [00:15:18] Speaker 3: He said, she's told me that Matt was not going to go to Disneyland. [00:15:24] Speaker 2: Did that surprise you? [00:15:25] Speaker 3: Shocked me, yes. Surprised me, yes. [00:15:27] Speaker 2: Were things already paid for at this time? [00:15:29] Speaker 3: Everything was paid for. Everything, the tickets, the Airbnb on the beach, the Disneyland Hotel, the tickets to go into the park, and the car rentals, the flights to go out there. [00:15:44] Speaker 2: So, everything was paid for before this announcement that Matt was not going to come? [00:15:50] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:51] Speaker 2: Was Kate still going to come? [00:15:53] Speaker 3: Kate said that she told me that she's the goal. If he doesn't go, then I'll just go. And then she called me back and said, Matt said that if he doesn't go, the kids are not going. [00:16:09] Speaker 2: Did you have an opportunity to send a text about your frustration about Matt? [00:16:14] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:16:14] Speaker 2: Did you say, I want to strangle him? [00:16:17] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. It, may I? [00:16:20] Speaker 2: Yeah. [00:16:21] Speaker 3: So. [00:16:22] Speaker 2: Why did you say that? [00:16:23] Speaker 3: Because I was frustrated with him. But it was more, I couldn't do anything about calming that down. And the only, I knew that I couldn't be there to support Kate physically, but I could just kind of say, hey, I'll just drive nine hours and strangle him. It was so ridiculous. That's why I could say it like that. Because it was ridiculous. I would never do that. [00:16:52] Speaker 2: Did you have an occasion to talk to him on the phone around that? [00:16:57] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. [00:16:58] Speaker 2: And what did you say to him? [00:16:59] Speaker 3: I called him on the phone and it was a very short call and I told him, don't mess with my child. And I think he just said one or two words. He hung up and Kate let me know. [00:17:16] Speaker 2: How did Kate let you know? [00:17:17] Speaker 3: She called me and texted me. [00:17:19] Speaker 2: What did she say? [00:17:20] Speaker 3: She said that I made it, she was essentially saying I made it worse. [00:17:23] Speaker 2: So you contacting Matt personally made their relationship and the dispute. [00:17:29] Speaker 3: Their fight worse. [00:17:31] Speaker 2: And so what did you say? Do you remember? [00:17:34] Speaker 3: I said, do you want me to call? I can call him and backpedal. I just, I said, I told her I was frustrated and it wasn't like any kind of, she told me that he perceived it as a threat. And I said, that's ridiculous. I'm, that wasn't a threat. I'm just frustrated and didn't know what to say. [00:17:52] Speaker 2: Okay. Did you have an occasion to go out to California after the Disney trip? [00:17:58] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. [00:17:59] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:17:59] Speaker 2: At the Disney trip, it all ended up just fine, didn't it? [00:18:03] Speaker 3: It was great. We had, Matt was fantastic. We, Matt, Katie and the kids and I had a couple meals alone together. Matt and I. [00:18:13] Speaker 2: I'm sorry. How was the trip? [00:18:15] Speaker 3: Great. [00:18:16] Speaker 2: Everyone participated? [00:18:17] Speaker 3: Everyone was there. Except for Lucas. [00:18:20] Speaker 2: Except for Lucas. Even though he had a shirt. [00:18:22] Speaker 3: Even though he was invited in, had a shirt, yeah. Okay. [00:18:25] Speaker 2: And, um, sorry, one moment. And then you had an occasion to go out to California after the Disney trip, is that right? [00:18:51] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. [00:18:52] Speaker 2: At the Disney trip, were you aware of the AirTags being used? [00:18:56] Speaker 3: Oh, I bought them, yes. [00:18:57] Speaker 2: And what were they used for? [00:18:59] Speaker 3: For putting into the kids' backpacks or we bought little pins to put on them so that if the kids got separated from us, we could get, we would know exactly where they are three seconds later. [00:19:11] Speaker 2: Isn't it true? Isn't it true that you actually bought the AirTags so that you could follow Matt? [00:19:16] Speaker 3: No. No. [00:19:17] Speaker 2: You've heard that in prior hearings, though, haven't you? [00:19:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:19:20] Speaker 2: The argument that those AirTags were purchased for the specific purpose of following Matt. [00:19:26] Speaker 3: Absolutely, that is not true. [00:19:29] Speaker 2: You had an occasion to go to California. What month after Disney did you go to California? [00:19:34] Speaker 3: I went three times to California. I went in... [00:19:38] Speaker 2: Do you remember the question? [00:19:39] Speaker 3: Sorry. [00:19:40] Speaker 1: All right, so I'm going to just instruct you. I'll be better. I want you to pay attention to the questions that's asked and only answer to the questions that's asked. You'll follow up, okay? Yes, Your Honor. Thank you, Mr. Facevart. Please continue. [00:19:51] Speaker 2: So did you have an occasion to go to California after Disney? Yes. And what was the reason? [00:19:57] Speaker 3: My friend, Amy Johnson, was very sick. She could use a walker to get around, but for the most part, she was bedridden. And her husband had passed away in December, three months prior. [00:20:12] Speaker 2: So what was the reason you went to California? [00:20:14] Speaker 3: To help my friend. [00:20:15] Speaker 2: And who was your friend? [00:20:16] Speaker 3: Amy Johnson. [00:20:17] Speaker 2: Thank you. And where does Amy Johnson live? [00:20:20] Speaker 3: In Ramona, California. [00:20:22] Speaker 2: And how far is Ramona from Temecula or the area in which Matt and Kate lived? [00:20:28] Speaker 3: From Temecula, it's about an hour, maybe a little less. [00:20:31] Speaker 2: Were you familiar with that part of California? [00:20:33] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:20:34] Speaker 2: Why were you familiar with that part of California? [00:20:36] Speaker 3: I lived in Ramona, California, and I've also lived in Temecula, California. [00:20:40] Speaker 2: Okay. And your testimony is that Amy's husband had passed away? [00:20:46] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:20:47] Speaker 2: And you went out for what purpose for Amy? [00:20:50] Speaker 3: She was needing help to move into an assisted living situation. And she had a large house. And she needed a lot of help to arrange for real estate brokers, estate sales. [00:21:05] Speaker 2: Did she ask you for this help? [00:21:07] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:21:08] Speaker 2: And how long had you known Amy? [00:21:13] Speaker 3: 38 years. [00:21:14] Speaker 2: Is it fair to say that all your children knew Amy? [00:21:17] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:21:18] Speaker 2: And when you went to California, did Kate go with you to Amy's house? [00:21:23] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:21:24] Speaker 2: And what was your purpose there? [00:21:26] Speaker 3: On the day or two that Kate was there for two separate days. On the one of the days, we did the same thing on both days. We cleaned the chest freezer out of the garage. We cleaned the stand-up refrigerator, freezer, organized some things in the garage, and cleaning the office in her house, and going through her closets. [00:21:53] Speaker 2: Was Amy asking for this assistance? Yes. And did Amy get better? [00:22:00] Speaker 3: No. [00:22:01] Speaker 2: What happened to Amy? [00:22:04] Speaker 3: Amy passed away the middle of April. [00:22:07] Speaker 2: Of 2024? Yes. Did you go out there after she passed away? [00:22:11] Speaker 3: After she passed away, there was a celebration of life at the end of May, like the 20th. I went, I think it was on May 28th that the celebration of life was. But I was out there from like the 23rd to the 30th. [00:22:26] Speaker 2: Okay. And did Kate come out with you to? [00:22:29] Speaker 3: Yeah. She came out to the celebration. [00:22:30] Speaker 2: To Pomona or Ramona? [00:22:31] Speaker 3: Ramona. And she came out to the celebration of life with me. [00:22:35] Speaker 2: Did you visit Amy's house? Yes. And what did you do then? [00:22:39] Speaker 3: That mostly was the celebration of life was me visiting with Amy's family and friends. While Katie, even though she was very close to Amy, she was playing more. She was cleaning up glasses and taking care of things, trying to make it so that the people who are grieving, could focus on connection. [00:23:07] Speaker 2: And you were one grieving, right? [00:23:08] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:23:09] Speaker 2: And I would imagine Amy was one grieving. It was her, not Amy, I'm sorry. Kate was grieving. Yes. Kate's friend. And did you have an occasion during that trip to go to Kate and Matt's house? [00:23:27] Speaker 3: I did. [00:23:28] Speaker 2: And did you get in a tiff with Matt during that time? [00:23:32] Speaker 3: I did. [00:23:33] Speaker 2: Did you spend the night at their home or did you stay at some other place during that trip? [00:23:38] Speaker 3: I stayed the night at her home several nights. [00:23:41] Speaker 2: And what was the tiff about? [00:23:44] Speaker 3: During, it was the end of May and I asked Matt if Kate could come out and stay with me for a week or so when the kids got out of school. And he said no. And so I, and we were alone in the kitchen and I said, please, I would, you would be, I said, it won't, I'll pay for their, their gas, I'll pay for, I'll rent the car for them to get there. And he said, no, he, and he got mad at me and he was really irritated that I pressed the issue. And he said that Katie needs to stay in work and get a, she didn't have a job, but he was saying that he, his implication was that he, she should get a job. [00:24:31] Speaker 2: Was Matt working at that time? Did you know? [00:24:32] Speaker 3: No, he wasn't working at that time, but I know. [00:24:35] Speaker 2: Was Kate working at that time? Did you know? [00:24:38] Speaker 3: No. [00:24:38] Speaker 2: Okay. So neither were working. [00:24:40] Speaker 3: No. [00:24:42] Speaker 2: Sorry. I'm going to sneeze. There. I beat it. So did you, was Matt annoyed with your request? [00:24:52] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:24:54] Speaker 2: At that time, had you been under the impression that Matt and Kate were disputing about other issues? [00:25:03] Speaker 3: Kate and Matt were often disputing about other issues. So was that a yes? That's a yes. [00:25:09] Speaker 2: Thank you. Do you recall Kate testifying about the Las Vegas trip with Matt's mom and her? [00:25:16] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:25:16] Speaker 2: And Matt? [00:25:17] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:25:18] Speaker 2: And was this in and around that time? [00:25:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:25:21] Speaker 2: And what was your understanding of that annual event? [00:25:26] Speaker 3: I knew that Diane and her, Diane's family would invite Katie and Matt to go to Las Vegas with her, with their kids and spend, I think it's just shy of a week there in Las Vegas, enjoying a timeshare that the Rustelli family had. And when Kate, so they're planning to go this year, as they had gone every year for a while. And Diane, Kate told me that Diane had canceled the going to Las Vegas. And I don't know if that was just Matt and Kate's canceling or everybody's being canceled going to Las Vegas. I'm still unclear on that. [00:26:17] Speaker 2: Did you understand why Kate was uninvited and Matt were uninvited? [00:26:21] Speaker 3: I understood that it was because Kate and Matt were very, very broke. And to spend money, gas, wear and tear on the car, spending money was something that Kate told me that Diane didn't want to put that burden on them. And also, Diane was aware that Matt and Katie were fighting, argumentative. [00:26:55] Speaker 2: And now let's move into the time Kate's in Utah. So when Kate moved to Utah to be with you, did she bring enough items that she would then be living in Utah? [00:27:10] Speaker 3: Living in Utah permanently? [00:27:12] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:27:13] Speaker 3: No. [00:27:14] Speaker 2: So was it your understanding at one point in time she would have to go to California to get other stuff? [00:27:19] Speaker 3: A hundred percent, yes. [00:27:20] Speaker 2: And on or about, well, during that time she was living there, was Kate acting as if Matt was demonstrating a desire to reestablish or to improve the relationship? [00:27:39] Speaker 3: Yes, Kate told me that Matt was trying to convince Kate to come back and that he was trying to be a better person. He had stopped drinking. He had, he was trying to get them to come back home sooner rather than later. He was trying. Yes. [00:28:07] Speaker 2: And did Kate believe him to your understanding? [00:28:12] Speaker 3: No, no, no, she didn't. [00:28:14] Speaker 2: Not at all? [00:28:15] Speaker 3: A little, but no, no, not really. A little, but not really. [00:28:21] Speaker 2: So when you were in California in May or April, I don't recall, but when you were in California, there was a text message between you and Kate about the smoking trailer. [00:28:33] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:28:34] Speaker 2: And Kate was angry about you talking about the smoking trailer with Matt. [00:28:38] Speaker 3: That is correct. [00:28:39] Speaker 2: And what's your understanding of that? [00:28:42] Speaker 3: This, so Kate, after I got back home to Utah, Kate told me that Matt had said that I was judging her in a negative way for being out in the smoking trailer so much. And I told Kate that I had never brought that up, never said anything like that I don't know what he's trying to do, but he is lying. I'd never brought that up. [00:29:12] Speaker 2: Had you known about this smoking trailer? [00:29:14] Speaker 3: Oh yeah, of course. [00:29:15] Speaker 2: How long have you known about this smoking trailer? [00:29:17] Speaker 3: As long as she's lived on that property, so probably a decade, maybe eight years, however long it's been there, that's how long they use it for. [00:29:28] Speaker 2: To smoke their weed. [00:29:29] Speaker 3: To smoke marijuana, yeah. [00:29:31] Speaker 2: You heard the testimony of Tara Lynn, correct? [00:29:33] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:29:34] Speaker 2: She said if you're around Kate, she's on weed. [00:29:38] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:29:38] Speaker 2: Is that your opinion as well, or do you have a different opinion? [00:29:40] Speaker 3: No, she smoked every day. [00:29:42] Speaker 2: Did she smoke at your house? [00:29:45] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:29:45] Speaker 2: When she was in Utah in June? [00:29:47] Speaker 3: Yes, every day. [00:29:48] Speaker 2: And did she hide it, or did she try to keep it from people? [00:29:54] Speaker 3: She didn't hide it from anyone except for she didn't do it in front of the kids. She would go downstairs in the basement and have the window open and try to have the smell go outside. [00:30:07] Speaker 2: You've seen texts that the state offered as exhibits, right? Yes. And you saw a text where Kevin had said to her, I smell it, right? [00:30:15] Speaker 3: Right. It really... [00:30:16] Speaker 2: Is that referring to something specific? [00:30:19] Speaker 3: Yeah, the smell of the marijuana when she was smoking it just smelled gross. [00:30:26] Speaker 2: And so he smelled it in the house. [00:30:28] Speaker 3: Yeah, and it bothered Aurora really badly. It made her so frustrated. [00:30:33] Speaker 2: So amongst the adult kids of your family, it was a well-known issue involving Kate and her marijuana use. Yes. Did Kate act while she was in Utah as if she was still a married woman to Matt? [00:30:50] Speaker 3: No, she didn't. [00:30:52] Speaker 2: And what did Kate do that did not demonstrate that? [00:30:55] Speaker 3: Kate was on dating apps, several, much to my chagrin. She would ask if I would watch the kids a couple of times so she could go on a date. [00:31:11] Speaker 2: Would she ask the other siblings to watch the kids during these times? [00:31:14] Speaker 3: She probably... She asked Kevin. [00:31:16] Speaker 2: Yeah. [00:31:17] Speaker 3: She... I don't know if she asked Aurora or not, but... [00:31:22] Speaker 2: Had she been on these apps previous to coming to Utah? [00:31:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, it didn't seem like it was new. [00:31:28] Speaker 2: Okay. You're not sure, but it didn't seem like it was new. [00:31:31] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:31:32] Speaker 2: And she actually went out on dates? [00:31:34] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:31:35] Speaker 2: Did she talk to you about what happened on these dates? [00:31:37] Speaker 3: No. I would not enjoy that conversation. [00:31:42] Speaker 2: Okay. On July 11th, 2024... Yes. This was the day that the issue of a rental car being provided. [00:31:56] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:31:57] Speaker 2: Were you going to provide Kate a rental car? [00:32:00] Speaker 3: No. [00:32:01] Speaker 2: Do you recall seeing texts that talk about you providing Kate a rental car? [00:32:07] Speaker 3: I remember seeing texts. [00:32:09] Speaker 2: What do you recall of that situation? [00:32:13] Speaker 3: Matt wanted Kate to rent a car. And at that time, we were trying to let her be able to stay and postpone her going back to California by maybe a week or so more. And I knew that Matt's truck couldn't make it to California. Could? [00:32:40] Speaker ?: Could? [00:32:40] Speaker 3: Could not make it to California. What truck? The truck he drove, so he couldn't come pick them up. [00:32:45] Speaker 2: Where was the truck? [00:32:46] Speaker 3: California. [00:32:47] Speaker ?: California. [00:32:47] Speaker 2: So you said the truck couldn't make it to California. [00:32:49] Speaker 3: So the car rental, if Kate stayed in Utah, Matt and Kate would be separate for another week or so if she couldn't rent a car. I knew she could rent a car. [00:33:05] Speaker 2: You knew what? [00:33:07] Speaker 3: I knew she could rent a car. But we... [00:33:11] Speaker 2: Because she had a credit card. [00:33:12] Speaker 3: Yes. And Matt was unaware of this credit card. We were just wanting to extend her time so she could make a plan. [00:33:26] Speaker 2: And did she ever make a plan? [00:33:29] Speaker 3: I know that she spoke to at least one attorney. [00:33:34] Speaker 2: So the day before Matt was killed, she spoke to an attorney. [00:33:37] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:33:38] Speaker 2: So is it your understanding at that time, she's delving into what it's going to take to get a divorce? [00:33:43] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:33:44] Speaker 2: And at that time, was there some idea of killing Matt? [00:33:47] Speaker 3: No, I, no. [00:33:49] Speaker 2: Well, you had said it in February to strangle him. Wasn't that part of the plan? [00:33:54] Speaker 3: No. [00:33:55] Speaker 2: Well, you had said it in April or May. [00:33:59] Speaker 4: Leading argumentative. Let's rephrase our questions. [00:34:04] Speaker 2: In April or May, did you say you would just drive to kill him? [00:34:08] Speaker 3: I said I would drive and strangle him, drive 10 hours and strangle him. And I said about when he lied trying to make Kate mad at me, I said I'm going to kill him. And that was a harmless expression of my frustration. [00:34:33] Speaker 2: So on July 11th, when Kate had spoken to the lawyer, did she advise you of that conversation? [00:34:41] Speaker 3: Ask again, please. [00:34:42] Speaker 2: On July 11th, when Kate had spoken to that lawyer, had she advised you of that conversation? [00:34:48] Speaker 3: She sent me the conversation with her attorney and the attorney she was consulting. But I... [00:34:55] Speaker 2: Was that a yes? [00:34:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:34:56] Speaker 2: Thank you. Did you listen to what she sent you? [00:35:00] Speaker 3: Not. If I did, I listened to maybe two minutes of it because I was too busy. And I believe the recording was more for her purposes than she can just tell me and give me the shorthand of what was said. [00:35:14] Speaker 2: You've heard the conversation as an exhibit here in court. Is that right? [00:35:19] Speaker 3: Ask me... [00:35:20] Speaker 2: Between the lawyer and Kate? [00:35:22] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:35:23] Speaker 2: Okay. And is that, to your recollection, the recording that was sent to you? [00:35:28] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:35:29] Speaker 2: And that was July 11th, right? [00:35:32] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:35:33] Speaker 2: And there was some conversation in and around that time, on that day, about the rental car. Is that correct? [00:35:40] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:35:40] Speaker 2: And did you come up with a plan about Kate not being able to drive the car? [00:35:47] Speaker 3: It was Tara Lynn's idea to suggest that Kate's brain hurt, pretend like she has a sprained ankle, so she couldn't drive the rental car back. And also, it worked out that we could show Matt that the car rental agency wouldn't rent a car to her unless she had a credit card in her name. [00:36:18] Speaker 2: Was Kate trying to get Matt to come to Utah at that point? [00:36:21] Speaker 3: No. [00:36:23] Speaker 2: What was your understanding of Kate's desire at that point as far as Matt coming to Utah? [00:36:30] Speaker 3: So, she wanted to stay, I'm not answering the question again. [00:36:36] Speaker 2: Did Kate want Matt to come to Utah? No. When did you find out Matt was coming to Utah? [00:36:43] Speaker 3: It was the 12th. [00:36:47] Speaker 2: How did you find out? [00:36:49] Speaker 3: Kate texted me. [00:36:51] Speaker 2: So, she texted you, Matt's coming? [00:36:53] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:36:54] Speaker 2: Is that the first time you knew that Matt was coming? [00:36:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:36:58] Speaker 2: The day before, you joked about her having a sprained ankle, you recall that? [00:37:03] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:37:04] Speaker 2: And you recall that there was the question of being able to get a debit card or credit card or something to rent, you recall that? Yes. And did you know Kate went to the rental car agency before she left to go there? Yes. You knew she was going to do that? [00:37:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:37:21] Speaker 2: And what was your understanding was the purpose of that? [00:37:25] Speaker 3: Because she wanted to go because she knows that, we had this conversation, she knew that Matt had made the arrangements for the rental car. And so, she wanted to go and physically say to the people, so if I have just this ID and this debit card, can I rent a car? And for them to say no, so that way, if Matt called them and said, why aren't you renting her the car, they wouldn't be, they would be able to give him a response. [00:38:00] Speaker 2: To your understanding at this time, had Kate and Matt had a conversation about divorce? [00:38:06] Speaker 3: I am, yes, yes, yes. Let me limit that a little bit. [00:38:12] Speaker 2: To your understanding, during the time that Kate was in Utah, up to that day, July 11th, so June 20th or 21st, she got there at 1 a.m., June 21st to July 11th, had Kate and Matt had a conversation about divorce? [00:38:29] Speaker 3: I don't believe so. [00:38:31] Speaker 2: But they had previously to your understanding? [00:38:33] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:38:36] Speaker 2: And so, on July 12th, you were notified by text that Matt is coming. [00:38:47] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:38:48] Speaker 2: And do you recall what your text response was? [00:38:51] Speaker 3: I'll call you in a few minutes. [00:38:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll call you. And did you end up having a telephone conversation with Kate? [00:38:58] Speaker 3: Yes, I called her. [00:38:59] Speaker 2: And what was said? [00:39:01] Speaker 3: I asked her, what's going on? How is he coming out? Did he borrow a car? What's going on? And she said that he was going to drive out. And I said, okay, well, did he already leave? And she said, I don't remember what she said. And I said, well, if he's coming out, I want you to just have a, when you come, when he comes out, just have a conversation with him. And in some ways, maybe it's better because you won't be going home to Temecula, having a conversation with him where you're alone in the house and he can yell. If he's coming out here, then he can have a conversation with you. And there's adults in the house. He will be able to be more civil in a conversation. [00:39:53] Speaker 2: And did you have an occasion to talk to Kevin that day? [00:39:59] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. [00:40:00] Speaker 2: And where was that? [00:40:03] Speaker 3: I asked Kevin if he wanted to go for sushi because no one else in my house likes sushi and Kevin does. And so it's one of the things that we do just to connect. And so I said, you want to meet me for sushi? And we did. We met at about two-ish, three-ish, somewhere around there. [00:40:23] Speaker 2: Okay. So you received a text earlier in the day that Matt's not coming. [00:40:28] Speaker 3: Matt is coming. [00:40:29] Speaker 2: Matt is coming. Thank you. Were you home when you received that text? [00:40:32] Speaker 3: No, I was in Salt Lake. [00:40:34] Speaker 2: Okay. And when you met for sushi, Matt's living at the house, right? Or not Matt. [00:40:39] Speaker 6: Kevin. [00:40:39] Speaker 2: Kevin's living at the house, right? [00:40:41] Speaker 6: Yes. [00:40:42] Speaker 2: And did you communicate with Kevin to meet for sushi? [00:40:46] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:40:46] Speaker 2: And how far is sushi from your house? [00:40:49] Speaker 3: Two minutes, a couple blocks. [00:40:51] Speaker 2: And had you been there before? [00:40:52] Speaker 3: Several times. [00:40:53] Speaker 2: And you and Kevin met there? [00:40:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:40:57] Speaker 2: And when you met there, what did you talk about? [00:41:01] Speaker 3: We talked about, I told him, I said, I can't believe Matt's coming out. And I, we went, we were talking about, you know, I said, how, do you know how that came about? And he said, no. I asked him if he would please not go out that night so he could just be around the house when Matt showed up. We talked about, we talked about, um, Kate's options, like, um, well, if he comes out so they can have a conversation in the living room. And if he got there and he was really too tired, I, I let Kevin know that, I guess, excuse me. I let Kevin know that I had invited Matt to stay at our, at our house if he wanted to, because he would have gotten there after a long day of driving. And I know that drive, it's a long drive. I let him know that I had offered Matt, Matt or Matt and Kate, money to stay in the Haldane Express, um, to, so they could sleep and talk. I, um, and I said that, you know, the, um, they could just, I said, I, I remember saying this and thinking, oh, this is never going to happen. I said, you know, maybe he'll come out and she wants, says, I want to stay an extra week. And I said, I don't think that'll happen because he won't want to turn around and go back home. [00:42:38] Speaker 2: What did Kate tell you, uh, Matt's plan was when he came to Utah? [00:42:42] Speaker 3: To pick them up and bring them home. [00:42:45] Speaker 2: And so what did you do in preparation of that? [00:42:49] Speaker 3: I cleaned my house because it was a disaster. [00:42:54] Speaker 2: So after sushi, you went home? [00:42:56] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:42:57] Speaker 2: And you cleaned your house? [00:42:58] Speaker 3: Yeah, I did laundry. I did Kate's laundry because she can't go home with dirty clothes. So I did Kate's laundry, normal, putting away laundry. [00:43:07] Speaker 2: So at the time, you've been in Salt Lake, right? [00:43:10] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:43:11] Speaker 2: You come home, uh, and you start cleaning the house. [00:43:14] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:43:15] Speaker 2: Living at the house is Cheyenne, Steele, Kate, Kevin. [00:43:20] Speaker 3: Aurora. [00:43:20] Speaker 2: Aurora. [00:43:22] Speaker ?: Me. [00:43:22] Speaker 2: And you. And you. Uh, is the house, uh, well-kept when you get there? [00:43:27] Speaker 3: No. [00:43:28] Speaker 2: Was it sort of common for it not to be like that when you got home? [00:43:32] Speaker 3: Uh, well, yes, because I had company, and company is messy. [00:43:39] Speaker 2: And so, uh, how did you, how did you prepare or clean the house? [00:43:44] Speaker 3: Well, Matt was coming, and I wanted it to look nice when he came. [00:43:49] Speaker 2: So what'd you do? [00:43:49] Speaker 3: I did the dishes, I cleaned the, I vacuumed the house, which is a big house. It's like 3,200 square feet. Um, I knew that Kate would be, they would be carrying, um, uh, suitcases and blankets and things out to the truck if, if they, if Kate left, which that's why I thought she was going, he was coming out to pick her up. So Kate was going to leave. And so I have a screen door that hangs from the door frame. [00:44:25] Speaker 2: You've seen the picture as an exhibit. [00:44:26] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:44:27] Speaker 2: It's a screen door with magnets in the middle. [00:44:29] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:44:30] Speaker 2: And so how do you get through that screen door? [00:44:32] Speaker 3: You have to like part it like a curtain, but it's kind of stiff and you have to kind of duck. And so I just took it down so that A, the screen didn't get damaged and B, if they're carrying kids, blankets and suitcases in and out or out, it would make it very much a hindrance to go through the screen. [00:44:52] Speaker 2: And did you take the screen down to make it easier for Matt to get in the house? [00:44:57] Speaker 3: In the house? No, we, we went in the house all the time. It was just getting in the house. It's more carrying the items. [00:45:05] Speaker 2: How hard is it to take down that screen? [00:45:08] Speaker 3: It's nothing. It's Velcroed on. It takes three seconds. [00:45:12] Speaker 2: And what else did you do to get the house clean? [00:45:15] Speaker 3: Well, when I was taking the screen off, I also noticed that there was the sidewalk chalk all over the patio, the front porch. And I hosed it off to, again, to make it, I wanted to make it look nice. [00:45:29] Speaker 2: So who did the chalk? [00:45:31] Speaker 3: The kids, the kids put sidewalk chalk, so I hosed it off, watered my tomato plants, squirted it off the chairs from dust and spiders. [00:45:47] Speaker 2: And did you have a conversation with Kate when you got home from sushi? [00:45:55] Speaker 3: Yeah, I asked her what she was going to. [00:45:58] Speaker 2: Is that a yes? Yes. Okay. And you got home from sushi and where did you have that conversation? [00:46:06] Speaker 3: It was probably when I, when I was doing the dishes and cleaning the kitchen and she was sitting at the dining room table. [00:46:12] Speaker 2: So do you really remember or are you just trying your best to remember? [00:46:14] Speaker 3: No, no, I'm trying my best to remember. [00:46:16] Speaker 2: Okay. Thank you. You've heard the testimony of Kate, right? [00:46:21] Speaker 3: I've heard the testimony of Kate, yes. You were here? Yes. [00:46:25] Speaker 2: Kate says that when you got back, you had a meeting with you and Kevin and her on the yard. Do you remember that testimony? [00:46:31] Speaker 3: I remember that testimony. [00:46:33] Speaker 2: And when did Kevin get back from sushi? [00:46:37] Speaker 3: I think he went and did an errand before he came home because I don't think he was right behind me. [00:46:43] Speaker 2: So you didn't drive together to sushi, did you? [00:46:45] Speaker 3: No. [00:46:47] Speaker 2: And so Kevin didn't arrive at the same time that you arrived? [00:46:50] Speaker 3: No. [00:46:52] Speaker 2: And so you had a conversation with Kate. Was there a conversation about how she was going to handle her meeting with Matt? [00:46:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, she was just going to talk to him and see how things were going and hopefully that they would be peaceful. And I told her in that conversation, I know I had said, don't rile him up on the drive. Just have him be calm. He's welcome. Don't let him think that he's anything else besides welcome. [00:47:21] Speaker 2: Did Kate indicate that she wanted to call off the divorce? [00:47:27] Speaker 3: No. [00:47:28] Speaker 2: Did Kate indicate that she wanted to follow through with the divorce? [00:47:30] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:47:32] Speaker 2: Was it your understanding that that conversation was going to be about getting a divorce? [00:47:36] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:47:39] Speaker 2: One moment. Did Kate help you clean the house? [00:48:08] Speaker 3: Yeah, she picked up toys, yes. [00:48:10] Speaker 2: Where were the kids? [00:48:11] Speaker 3: Running around the house, playing, just on their iPads. Well, probably about four-ish because we went to sushi at three, and so maybe it took us an hour to get back. And so between four and say six. [00:48:28] Speaker 2: So it's not bedtime for the kids? [00:48:30] Speaker 3: No, not yet. [00:48:31] Speaker 2: And what time do the kids usually go to bed? [00:48:33] Speaker 3: Eight-thirty-ish. [00:48:35] Speaker 2: You've heard telephone conversations between Kate and Kevin on that day, haven't you? [00:48:42] Speaker 3: Kate and Kevin. [00:48:44] Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Kate and Matt on July 12th. [00:48:48] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:48:48] Speaker 2: Those are telephone conversations when Matt was getting ready to leave from California, and then while he was on the road to Utah. [00:48:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:48:59] Speaker 2: And did Kate tell you about those conversations? [00:49:03] Speaker 3: No. [00:49:04] Speaker 2: What did you understand? Was there communication during that day? [00:49:09] Speaker 3: I thought that she was surprised that Matt was coming out. I heard on those phone calls that... [00:49:17] Speaker 2: But just to clarify, surprised that he's coming out and immediately arriving, or what do you mean by that? [00:49:23] Speaker 3: I didn't think he was able to come to Utah. [00:49:30] Speaker 2: But you said you thought she was surprised he was coming out. [00:49:32] Speaker 3: Oh. [00:49:35] Speaker 2: Did you think Kate was surprised Matt was coming out? [00:49:38] Speaker 3: I think she was, because he didn't have a reliable vehicle. Yeah, I perceived her to be surprised, like, he's coming out. Like, oh my gosh, he's coming out. [00:49:48] Speaker 2: Was it your understanding that she was trying to delay him from coming out or have him not come out at all? Yes. Because you had talked about the rental car? [00:49:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:49:56] Speaker 2: Because you had talked about spraining an ankle so she couldn't drive? Yes. And so this plan was to just have her stay in Utah and Matt not come out to Utah. Yes. And when you, on these telephone conversations, you heard telephone conversations before Matt even left Utah, right? Yes. I'm sorry, I said that wrong. [00:50:14] Speaker 3: California. [00:50:14] Speaker 2: Before Matt even left California. [00:50:16] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:17] Speaker 2: He was talking about, I have to whack the starter with a tool to get it to work on the truck. You remember that conversation? [00:50:23] Speaker 3: I do. [00:50:24] Speaker 2: You remember the conversations while he's on the road coming to Utah, is that right? [00:50:29] Speaker 3: I do. [00:50:30] Speaker 2: When's the first time you ever heard those telephone conversations? [00:50:34] Speaker 3: Here in court. And if, I read them on transcripts that you gave me. [00:50:43] Speaker 2: Isn't it true that the first time you heard those was at the hearing May 20th and May 22nd of 2025? [00:50:51] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:51] Speaker 2: And that was at a preliminary hearing, correct? Yes. Where witnesses were taking the stand, correct? [00:50:58] Speaker 4: Your Honor, he's leading. [00:51:01] Speaker 2: Did witnesses take the stand at the preliminary hearing? [00:51:04] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:05] Speaker 2: And did you hear what they said? [00:51:07] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:07] Speaker 2: Did you hear any telephone conversations during that preliminary hearing? [00:51:11] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:12] Speaker 2: Did you hear telephone conversations between Matt and Kate during that preliminary hearing? [00:51:16] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:17] Speaker 2: On May 20th and May 22nd, 2025? [00:51:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:21] Speaker 2: And is that the first time you had heard or read anything about those telephone conversations? [00:51:26] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:27] Speaker 2: Were you surprised? [00:51:29] Speaker 3: You could have knocked me over with a feather. I was shocked. [00:51:32] Speaker 2: Why? [00:51:33] Speaker 3: Because that's not what she said to me. That's not what she represented. That's not what Kate represented to me in any way, shape, or form. [00:51:43] Speaker 2: What was she representing to you? [00:51:45] Speaker 3: That she was more surprised that Matt was coming. [00:51:49] Speaker 2: What did she represent to you was the relationship between them at that time? It sounded pretty lovey-dovey on the telephone calls. [00:51:57] Speaker 3: That was surprising to me. I couldn't believe it. It was like it was two different people. [00:52:05] Speaker 2: You were aware that she had been on dates while in Utah during this time? [00:52:08] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:52:09] Speaker 2: Yet there were lovey-dovey calls between her and Matt at that time. [00:52:12] Speaker 3: Yes, and that's not the same thing as keeping him calm. [00:52:18] Speaker 2: Do you recall making searches on your internet? [00:52:23] Speaker 3: Lots of searches for whatever's in my head. [00:52:26] Speaker 2: Do you recall searching the Adelson case? [00:52:29] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:52:30] Speaker 2: And how do you know about that case? [00:52:31] Speaker 3: It was a popular true crime story, and there was no movies out. [00:52:39] Speaker 2: And you searched it? [00:52:41] Speaker 3: Well, I would listen to the podcast. Is that a yes? Yes. [00:52:43] Speaker 2: Okay. And you listened to a podcast about it? [00:52:46] Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd listen to the podcast, and then I would go down a rabbit hole and look at things, look at a picture of a person that's being talked about. [00:52:54] Speaker 2: So is this a hobby of yours? [00:52:56] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:52:57] Speaker 2: True crime? [00:52:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:52:58] Speaker 2: Is it a hobby of Tara Lynn's? [00:53:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:53:00] Speaker 2: I mean, you heard Tara Lynn testify to that, haven't you? [00:53:03] Speaker 3: I know. Yes. [00:53:12] Speaker 2: Did you ever search on your history anything about gun licensing? [00:53:17] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:53:18] Speaker 2: Why did you do that? [00:53:19] Speaker 3: It was at a very specific time. I was talking to Tara Lynn, and Tara Lynn had me on speakerphone. And this was a few days before Kate came out. It was after the storage unit was rented and before Kate actually came to Utah. And Tara Lynn was talking to me about Kate coming out. And her husband, David, was in the background on the speakerphone call and said, well, what's your mom going to do if, or maybe she even said, what are you going to do? Because it was speaker. What are you going to do if Matt shows up at your house? And because David is the one who was so encouraging for me to have a gun in the house, I was almost flipping to bat and said, well, I've got a gun. I can protect myself. Because that's what he advocated, is having a gun for protection. David? [00:54:24] Speaker 2: Yes. Tara Lynn's husband? Yes. And did you search gun issues on the internet? [00:54:31] Speaker 3: Because then his follow-up question was, did you register the gun? And I remember when I bought it from my friend, I asked him, I said, is there anything I need to do to file paperwork for this purchase? And he said, no, you don't have to. But then in that moment when I was talking to Tara Lynn and David was saying, did you register it? I went and researched the law because I didn't know what the law was. And if I might have missed a huge step and I wanted, it came up during conversation. So I looked it up. [00:55:07] Speaker 2: That was before Matt even came out, isn't it? [00:55:09] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:55:09] Speaker 2: Do you remember searching American Fork Cemetery and Alpine Cemetery on June 27th? [00:55:15] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:55:16] Speaker 2: Was that in preparation for the death of Matt? [00:55:18] Speaker 3: No, that was in preparation for a hike that I wanted to take Cheyenne and Steele on. There's a, may I? [00:55:27] Speaker 2: Yeah. Why did you search Alpine Cemetery and American Fork Cemetery? [00:55:32] Speaker 3: Because one of those cemeteries has a lookout point where you can, there's a plaque that has a brass picture of the mountain range and it labels the tops of the mountains. And I didn't know if it was, it's like this little lookout point inside the cemetery and I didn't know if it was Alpine or American Fork. So I looked it up and it turns out it's Alpine and you just go into the cemetery and you drive up this whole road and it's a little, it's a spot that you can enjoy the view and see the labeled mountains. And I thought that Cheyenne might enjoy that. I've been up there many times because it's pretty. But I forgot, I'm not very good at directions. [00:56:22] Speaker 2: What was your understanding of the items in the front room, the toys and things? Were those moved from the front room? Yes. Why? [00:56:34] Speaker 3: There was two laundry baskets in the front room by the fireplace and I put them into the office, which is just inside the front door. I put them in the office so that when Matt came in, he would be able to have a conversation with Kate and not be frustrated and say, why aren't you all packed and ready to go? Why isn't all this stuff ready to be here? And so I moved them into the office. But I already told Kate that she's, all you have to do is take and slide them into a lawn and leaf bag, tie it up and you can have the laundry baskets. [00:57:13] Speaker 2: So you have bought the laundry baskets? [00:57:15] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:57:16] Speaker 2: And you talked about these drawers things up in the bedroom? [00:57:19] Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like Sterilite brand three drawer things that I thought it would be easier for her to work with for the week or two weeks or three weeks that she was there at my house. [00:57:30] Speaker 2: Did you think it was possible Kate was going to go with Matt back to California? [00:57:33] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:57:34] Speaker 2: Do you think it was possible Kate was not going to go back to Matt to California? He's leading? [00:57:39] Speaker 3: No. No, I didn't. You can't answer. Oh, sorry. [00:57:44] Speaker 2: He made his ruling. [00:57:45] Speaker 1: Oops. Let's rephrase it. [00:57:46] Speaker 2: Did you know Kevin used cocaine? [00:58:04] Speaker 3: No. [00:58:06] Speaker 2: Did you know Kevin was depressed? [00:58:09] Speaker 3: I knew he had a bout of suicidal ideation. A year and a half before. [00:58:19] Speaker 2: What was your understanding of that? [00:58:21] Speaker 3: He just told me he was contemplating suicide and so I got him some counseling. [00:58:28] Speaker 2: Did you get him counseling? [00:58:29] Speaker 3: I got him counseling and he went on a prescription. [00:58:33] Speaker 2: And do you know what precipitated his depression and suicidal ideation? [00:58:40] Speaker 3: Yeah, he was engaged to be married and she broke up with him and he was just heartbroken. [00:58:49] Speaker 2: And when he was engaged to be married, where did he live? [00:58:53] Speaker 3: He lived in Chicago. [00:58:54] Speaker 2: And while he lived in Chicago, did he prepare for a wedding? To your understanding? [00:59:02] Speaker 3: Yeah. They were in the process of starting to prepare for a wedding. [00:59:07] Speaker 2: So it was very serious. [00:59:08] Speaker 3: Yes, it was. This wasn't just a... No, it was a ring. It was real. [00:59:12] Speaker 2: And when that relationship terminated between him and his girlfriend, was it amicable? Was it kind? And I think we just don't fit? Is that your understanding? [00:59:24] Speaker 3: It was my understanding that it was amicable. However, she was the one ending it. And so he was calling her a lot. [00:59:40] Speaker 2: Did that cause problems? [00:59:41] Speaker 3: For her, yeah. [00:59:42] Speaker 2: Did that cause problems for him? [00:59:45] Speaker 3: It caused problems because when he didn't stop, he was... He'd only been in Utah probably a couple weeks when he was served with protective order papers because she wanted him to stop calling, texting, reaching out by any other social media means. And so her dad was an attorney, was able to help her with that. [01:00:13] Speaker 2: And did Kevin indicate to you that that made him sadder, that he had a protective order? [01:00:18] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:00:21] Speaker 2: And how long after that did you get him involved in some therapeutic help? [01:00:28] Speaker 3: Immediately, within a day. So when he got here, I didn't get him any help because I just thought he was licking his wounds and being... Broken heart? Yeah, broken hearted. And it was months after that, maybe six months, because he was with us for two and a half years. It was months after that where he still couldn't gain his footing and he was not feeling productive or... He wasn't feeling better. It got worse. [01:01:07] Speaker 2: So on July 12th, at around 10 o'clock, Matt came to the house. Is that right? [01:01:13] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:01:15] Speaker 2: And where were you when Matt came to the house? [01:01:18] Speaker 3: I was in the kitchen. [01:01:20] Speaker 2: And so, if we could pull up the exhibit. [01:01:32] Speaker 7: It's going to take me a second. [01:01:33] Speaker ?: It's going to take me a second. [01:01:43] Speaker 1: Fifty-two. Fifty-two. [01:02:10] Speaker 2: Does this look like your home? [01:02:23] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:02:25] Speaker 2: And where were you when Matt arrived, according to this picture? [01:02:30] Speaker 3: I'm on the other side of the fireplace, the other side of that wall. [01:02:34] Speaker 2: So you can't see where you are at this point? [01:02:37] Speaker 3: No. [01:02:38] Speaker 2: We can pick up, pull up picture 57. Where are you in this picture when Matt arrived? [01:02:53] Speaker 3: I was sitting on the corner of the counter. [01:02:57] Speaker 2: Okay. So there's a water bottle? [01:02:59] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:02:59] Speaker 2: Is that your water bottle? [01:03:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:03:01] Speaker 2: Is that your computer? [01:03:03] Speaker 3: It looks like it, yes. [01:03:05] Speaker 2: And there's one chair that's out a little bit? [01:03:08] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:03:08] Speaker 2: Is that your chair? [01:03:09] Speaker 3: I probably was sitting there, yeah. [01:03:11] Speaker 2: Were you sitting there when Matt came into the home? [01:03:14] Speaker 3: I was sitting on the other side of the counter. [01:03:17] Speaker 2: So does this picture show where you were sitting? [01:03:21] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:03:22] Speaker 2: Okay. Do we have the pointer thing? [01:03:29] Speaker 1: It's the state's. It's working. [01:03:33] Speaker 2: It's the taxpayers, your honor. [01:03:35] Speaker 1: That's true. It's yours. It's yours. [01:03:51] Speaker ?: It's yours. It's yours. It's yours. It's yours. [01:04:21] Speaker 2: So if you can push the top button of that pointer and please put that red dot where you were sitting when you first saw Matt. [01:04:42] Speaker 3: When I first saw Matt, I was right there. Right about there. [01:04:51] Speaker 2: So were you sitting on the gray covered chair? [01:04:56] Speaker 3: No, I had been sitting there prior to earlier, but I was sitting. [01:05:03] Speaker 2: And where were your feet? [01:05:06] Speaker 3: Hanging down in front of the, between the oven and the sink. [01:05:10] Speaker 2: Okay. So you were actually facing toward the, the, uh, the oven? [01:05:17] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:05:18] Speaker 2: Okay. Did you hear Matt come in? [01:05:19] Speaker 3: No. [01:05:21] Speaker 2: Uh, did you see Matt? [01:05:22] Speaker 3: I saw Matt. I didn't hear him come in at all. [01:05:26] Speaker 2: Did you? [01:05:28] Speaker 3: I saw him. Hear Matt? No. Okay. Sorry. [01:05:33] Speaker 2: Thank you. [01:05:41] Speaker 7: We can go back to 52. [01:05:49] Speaker 2: Can you use the pointer on where Matt was standing when you first saw him? [01:05:53] Speaker 3: You still can't see it. It's on the other side of the wall right here. [01:05:59] Speaker 2: Okay. Is it fair to say that he was standing on the tile portion of your house? Yes. Is it on the carpet portion? Yes. [01:06:06] Speaker 6: And can you point out the tile? [01:06:08] Speaker 3: The tile's right there. [01:06:11] Speaker 2: Can you align with the tile if you can? And so he came around that corner? Yes. And what did he say? [01:06:21] Speaker 3: He said, hey, so where's Kate? [01:06:24] Speaker 2: And what, were you surprised to see him? [01:06:29] Speaker 3: I was extremely surprised. I was, didn't expect him to be standing in my dining room. Why? Because I knew he was coming, but I didn't hear the doorbell. I didn't hear a knock, and I didn't expect him to walk into the house. I was, can I say? [01:06:53] Speaker 2: What were you expecting? [01:06:54] Speaker 3: I was expecting for Kate to answer the door so that he could come in and they could talk. And then, may I? May you what? Talk. [01:07:06] Speaker 2: No. So you were expecting Kate to answer the door? [01:07:10] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:07:10] Speaker 2: And have you had a conversation with Kate about that? [01:07:13] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:07:14] Speaker 2: And when did you have that conversation? [01:07:16] Speaker 3: During the day when I was tidying up the house, trying to make it look nice for when her husband got there. [01:07:20] Speaker 2: And what was your understanding of what Kate was going to do? [01:07:23] Speaker 3: Kate was going to talk with him, knowing that Kevin was probably in his bedroom upstairs, which the stairwell goes up. [01:07:36] Speaker 2: Do you remember the question? [01:07:37] Speaker 3: Sorry. [01:07:39] Speaker 2: The question was, what was your understanding of what Kate was going to do? [01:07:43] Speaker 3: Talk to Matt. [01:07:45] Speaker 2: And when Matt appeared around the corner, was he threatening towards you? [01:07:51] Speaker 3: No, he was just kind of jerky. He was like, so, where's Kate? And I was like, and I was, in that moment, I'm guessing, since he didn't see Kate in the living room, that Kate must not have been in the living room, because otherwise he wouldn't ask me that. [01:08:06] Speaker 2: Did you know Kate wasn't in the living room? [01:08:08] Speaker 3: I guessed, but I didn't know. [01:08:10] Speaker 2: Well, from your position in the other photo, you could see the stairway, couldn't you? [01:08:15] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:08:15] Speaker 2: So, did you see Kate come downstairs? [01:08:17] Speaker 3: No, no, I didn't. [01:08:17] Speaker 2: So, did you know Kate wasn't in the living room? [01:08:21] Speaker 3: I know Kate wasn't in the living room, but I... [01:08:25] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, is that... Did you say, I know Kate wasn't in the living room? I was confused by your reply. [01:08:30] Speaker 3: Okay. [01:08:31] Speaker 2: Did you know Kate was or was not in the living room? [01:08:36] Speaker 3: Kate could have walked past me while I was looking at my phone scrolling. I don't think she did, but I didn't think that... I thought Kate was going to be in the living room, but she was not in the living room. [01:08:50] Speaker 2: Did you know what time Matt was going to get to the house? [01:08:54] Speaker 3: Ten-ish. [01:08:55] Speaker 2: Did you have a, like, a forecast of closer than ten-ish? [01:09:00] Speaker 3: No, I didn't, no. [01:09:02] Speaker 2: Did Kate tell you, like, he's ten minutes out, or did Kevin tell you, or did Tara Lynn... I'm not done, this is a long question. Or did Rory, or did... I'm missing one. Anyone do that to you? [01:09:18] Speaker 3: No. [01:09:19] Speaker 2: Were you aware of anyone having that kind of instant kind of understanding of when Matt was going to get there? [01:09:24] Speaker 3: No. [01:09:25] Speaker 2: Okay, but you knew about ten? [01:09:27] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:09:29] Speaker 2: Where were the kids at that time? [01:09:31] Speaker 3: They were upstairs. Katie had put them to bed. And since it was... She had put them to bed an hour or so before, I assume they were asleep. [01:09:42] Speaker 2: Did you have a conversation with Kate after she put the kids to bed? [01:09:47] Speaker 3: Yeah, probably in passing. Just, are you okay? How are you feeling? [01:09:52] Speaker 2: Where was that conversation? [01:09:53] Speaker 3: Downstairs, on the main floor. [01:09:56] Speaker 2: Okay. So is she downstairs and upstairs? [01:09:58] Speaker 3: She is going to... Yes. To my... [01:10:01] Speaker 2: Thank you. [01:10:03] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [01:10:25] Speaker 2: And so after Kevin said to you, "Where's Kate?" and you said what you said, then what happened? Matt said... Oh, I said Kevin. I'm sorry. [01:10:32] Speaker ?: No, I said Kevin. [01:10:32] Speaker 2: Sorry. [01:10:33] Speaker ?: No, I said Kevin. Sorry. I said Kevin. No, I said Kevin. [01:10:35] Speaker 2: Sorry. After Matt said to you, "Where's Kate?" and you said what you said, then what happened? [01:10:41] Speaker 3: What I replied was that she's upstairs and I'll have her come down. [01:10:48] Speaker 2: And then what happened? [01:10:49] Speaker 3: Then I glanced over to look at the stairs to see if she was on her way down. [01:10:54] Speaker 2: And then what happened? [01:10:55] Speaker 3: And then Matt turned the corner and went back into the living room. [01:10:58] Speaker 2: So, he went back on this ruggy area? [01:11:02] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:11:03] Speaker 2: And then what happened? [01:11:05] Speaker 3: Within a few, short period of few moments, I heard gunfire. [01:11:13] Speaker 2: And then what happened? [01:11:15] Speaker 3: Then I went and went through the kitchen onto the other side. You can't see it on this picture, but I went to the, going to the foot of the stairs because the stairs are on the other, you still can't see him. I went to the foot of the stairs and that's where I saw Matt laying down where he had fallen down. And I saw Kevin and I said, "Kevin, what happened? What happened?" [01:11:52] Speaker 2: What did Kevin say? [01:11:54] Speaker 3: He said he had a knife. [01:11:56] Speaker 2: Did he say anything else? [01:12:00] Speaker 3: He said he had a knife. And I said, "Are you okay? Where's Kate?" He said, "I'm okay." And so I then went upstairs. Thank you. [01:12:15] Speaker 2: Sorry. Let me pull up the exhibit 44. So this picture shows Matt on the floor. Correct? Yes. And it shows a carpeted stairway. Yes. Going up. Correct? Yes. And this is obviously not a photo by you. Correct? Yes. And this is after you have left the property under order of law enforcement. Yes. And when you saw Kevin and Matt, did you go this way through this hallway or did you go around the ruggy living room way? [01:13:00] Speaker 3: I went from the kitchen right there, this way. [01:13:05] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:13:06] Speaker 2: And where was Kevin when you saw him? [01:13:07] Speaker 3: Kevin at that point was over here and then he walked over this way. [01:13:11] Speaker 2: Right. So when you say over here, you're referring to the feet of Matt. Yes. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Okay. [01:13:18] Speaker ?: And then he walked where? [01:13:19] Speaker 3: Then he... He was there. [01:13:24] Speaker 2: Where you're showing? [01:13:25] Speaker 3: Yes. Because right... [01:13:27] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:13:28] Speaker 2: Where's his feet? [01:13:32] Speaker ?: I'm sorry. [01:13:33] Speaker 2: My error, Judge, is that there's a little red mark, but that seems to be part of his shirt. And I thought that was the marker. But can you move the marker a little bit just so I can see it? Thank you. So if you can put the marker where Kevin was again. [01:13:47] Speaker 3: So he was here and here. [01:13:49] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:13:50] Speaker 3: And then I was in the kitchen and talking to him across over Matt's laying down body. And then I went upstairs and the stairs aren't straight up. There's like seven stairs of landing and then seven stairs jigging back the other way. [01:14:13] Speaker 2: And what did you do at that point? [01:14:15] Speaker 3: I went upstairs to talk to Katie and it's just because I was scared. [01:14:23] Speaker 2: Is this picture the picture you saw of Matt when you first saw him on the ground? [01:14:30] Speaker 3: That... I don't remember exactly because I've seen this picture. And I remember the first time I saw it, it was as an evidence picture. And I didn't remember because I didn't, I think I averted my eyes a lot initially. I don't know from my own memory exactly what he looked like. So I know that I went upstairs. [01:15:04] Speaker 2: But you've seen this photo a lot of times. [01:15:06] Speaker 3: I have seen the photo a lot of times. [01:15:08] Speaker 2: And when the police came, is this how Matt was when the police came? Yes. So when you went upstairs, what did you do? [01:15:15] Speaker 3: I said, I took Katie's face in my hands. And I said, Kevin shot Matt. And... She started... Go ahead, I'm sorry. She started crying. And I said, please, please, please, stay up here. And after, she said, you need to call 9-1-1. And I said, I will. I checked my pocket for a phone. I didn't have my phone in my pocket. So I went back downstairs. [01:15:48] Speaker 2: And when you went back downstairs, did you have an occasion... Well, let's go back. When you first saw Matt on the ground right here, was it your impression that he was dead? [01:15:58] Speaker 3: He looked lifeless when I stepped over him to go upstairs. [01:16:05] Speaker 2: Okay. Was it your impression that he could be revived when you saw him your first time? [01:16:13] Speaker 3: I thought possibly. Why? Because I didn't see... [01:16:20] Speaker 2: Did you see any breathing? No. Did you see any movement? No. Did you see anything that indicated that Matt's body had life? [01:16:30] Speaker 3: No. [01:16:32] Speaker 2: When you came back downstairs after talking to Kate, what did you do? [01:16:38] Speaker 3: I first wanted to check to see if my assessment of not having any kind of heartbeat or anything, I checked his... I wanted to check his pulse on his wrist. And Kevin... Which wrist? The one with the knife in it. [01:16:57] Speaker 2: Did you see the knife? [01:16:59] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. Because then I... I didn't look hard at the body at all. [01:17:04] Speaker 2: My question was, did you see the knife? [01:17:06] Speaker 3: Right then, yes. [01:17:07] Speaker 2: Okay. And which wrist did you check? [01:17:10] Speaker 3: The one that the knife was in. [01:17:11] Speaker 2: Okay. [01:17:12] Speaker 3: And I went to... I was going to move the knife out of his hand. And Kevin said to me, "Leave it. Be careful. I think he might still be kicking." [01:17:24] Speaker 2: Did you see him kicking? [01:17:25] Speaker 3: No. [01:17:26] Speaker 2: Did you check anything else on his body? [01:17:28] Speaker 3: I checked his wrist, didn't feel anything. Then I checked for his carotid artery on his neck. I didn't feel anything and I checked his wrist again. [01:17:38] Speaker 2: And the wrist with the knife or the other wrist? [01:17:40] Speaker 3: The one with the knife. [01:17:42] Speaker 2: Did you know at that point that he had been shot? [01:17:44] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:17:46] Speaker 2: Did you know that he had been shot in the wrist? [01:17:48] Speaker 3: No. [01:17:49] Speaker 2: When did you know he had been shot in the wrist? [01:17:52] Speaker 3: Months and months later after I saw the autopsy report. [01:17:58] Speaker 2: So you don't have to offer this information today, do you? [01:18:04] Speaker 3: My testimony? Yeah. As far as I'm aware, no. [01:18:11] Speaker 2: After... We can take that down. After you checked his wrist, what did you do? [01:18:19] Speaker 3: I had kneeled down to check him and I stood up to go get my phone, but I had gotten lightheaded and I felt nauseous. And I went to the kitchen and I had to steady myself on the counter because I was worried that I was going to pass out. Then I looked for my phone. Where was your phone? On the counter by the fridge behind me. It just took me a moment to locate it. [01:18:51] Speaker 2: You're aware that it was about six or seven minutes between the 2911 calls, right? [01:18:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:18:57] Speaker 2: What were you doing during those six or seven minutes? [01:19:05] Speaker 3: Operating slowly because on the fight, flight or freeze spectrum, I freeze. But I was so stunned by everything that happened. I was not moving fast at all. [01:19:25] Speaker 2: Did you see Kevin provide aid to Matt? [01:19:30] Speaker 3: I saw him check his pulse. [01:19:33] Speaker 2: Is that all you saw? [01:19:34] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:19:36] Speaker 2: Did you see Kate provide aid to Matt? [01:19:39] Speaker 3: No. [01:19:46] Speaker 2: How long after you called 911 did police get there? [01:19:51] Speaker 3: I was on the phone with 911 until police got there by their instructions. [01:19:57] Speaker 2: How long after you called 911 did the police get there? [01:20:04] Speaker 3: Five minutes, six minutes. [01:20:06] Speaker 2: And when you first started your 911 call, were you confused at the questions the operator was asking? [01:20:14] Speaker 3: Yeah, I called 911 and they said, is this Caitlin? [01:20:19] Speaker 2: What's your daughter's name? [01:20:21] Speaker ?: Catherine. Catherine. [01:20:23] Speaker 3: And so I was just really confused by that. [01:20:27] Speaker 2: Did you know that Caitlin, your neighbor, had called 911? [01:20:31] Speaker ?: No. [01:20:32] Speaker 3: No, but I figured it out later. [01:20:35] Speaker 2: But you were confused. They asked you if you were Caitlin? Yes. You informed them what? [01:20:43] Speaker 3: No, this is, and I gave them my name and then they started asking questions and I answered them to the best of my ability. [01:20:50] Speaker 2: Do you recall when the police had you leave the property? [01:20:55] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:20:57] Speaker 2: From the inside of the home? [01:20:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:21:00] Speaker 2: Do you recall, did you have any conversations with Kevin before the police got there about the knife or Matt or anything of that nature? Did you hear any dispute between Kevin and Matt? [01:21:14] Speaker 3: No. [01:21:15] Speaker 2: Did you hear any argument between Kevin and Matt? No, I didn't. Did you hear anything after Matt said where's Caitlin and you responded? Did you hear anything prior to the gunshots? No. So, is it your understanding that there was no real communication between Matt and Kevin before the gunshots? [01:21:35] Speaker 3: That is my understanding. [01:21:38] Speaker 2: But you did see Matt with a knife? Yes, after. [01:21:41] Speaker 3: In the picture that we saw? [01:21:42] Speaker 2: Yes. After you left the building, and I keep saying that, I apologize, Judge. After you left the inside of your home, you then went into the yard? [01:21:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:21:57] Speaker 2: And when you went into the yard, did you have an occasion to see Kevin? [01:22:01] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:22:02] Speaker 2: And where was he? [01:22:03] Speaker 3: He was sitting on the steps of the walkway to my house. [01:22:08] Speaker 2: Do you recall the body cam that we watched in this trial? Yes. Is that an accurate representation of how you and Kevin and Kate were exited out of the property? [01:22:19] Speaker 3: Precisely. [01:22:20] Speaker 2: Do you remember saying something to Kevin when you were in the grass? [01:22:23] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:22:24] Speaker 2: What did you say? [01:22:26] Speaker 3: I just, I shouted to him, don't say anything, don't talk, just, I forget what else I said. I just said. [01:22:36] Speaker 2: Why did you say that? [01:22:38] Speaker 3: Because I've, it was a terrible situation and Kevin had fired a weapon. I've seen it on True Crime and Law and Order and TikTok that you should always call for an attorney. [01:22:55] Speaker 2: Have you searched before self-defense on your web browsing? [01:23:02] Speaker 3: Not before this happened. Did you do it after? After, yes. [01:23:07] Speaker 2: After Kevin was sitting in front of that truck, did you ever talk to Kevin again? [01:23:13] Speaker 3: Never. [01:23:15] Speaker 2: He was arrested, is that right? Yes. Did you get transported to the American Fork police station? Yes. Did you get transported together? No. Did you get transported separately? Yes. Were you taken into separate rooms? [01:23:30] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:23:32] Speaker 2: You called an attorney while you were in the yard, is that right? Yes. And who is that attorney? [01:23:37] Speaker 3: His name is Richard Bednar and he's a friend of mine. He had been a friend for six or seven years. [01:23:44] Speaker 2: And did you have Richard, or did you ask Richard to meet you at the police department? [01:23:49] Speaker 3: No. [01:23:50] Speaker 2: What did you ask Richard to do? [01:23:52] Speaker 3: It was late at night and I called him and asked him, I said, "My son just shot my son-in-law. What do I do?" [01:23:59] Speaker 2: And what did he say? [01:24:00] Speaker 3: He said, "Call the police." He said, "Call the police." And I said, "Richard, you're my second call. What do I do?" And I don't remember what he said because the police officer said that I needed to get off the phone and so I hung up. That was the last I talked to Richard until he got to the police station. [01:24:21] Speaker 2: You recall that video of you at the police station? Yes. And when Richard is walking in to see you, is that the first time you saw or spoke to Richard after that phone call? [01:24:32] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:24:33] Speaker 2: And what did you tell Richard to do? [01:24:35] Speaker 3: I said, "Go be with my son." [01:24:37] Speaker 2: Go to Kevin. [01:24:38] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:24:39] Speaker 2: You didn't ask him to sit with you, did you? [01:24:41] Speaker 3: No. [01:24:42] Speaker 2: And he could have, couldn't he? [01:24:44] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:24:45] Speaker 2: Outside the presence of law enforcement, you could have had an attorney-client conversation. Yes. [01:24:50] Speaker ?: Is that right? [01:24:51] Speaker 2: And while you were in the police station, did you offer your information to law enforcement? Yes. Did you answer them honestly? Yes. Did you assert your fifth amendment right to remain silent? No. And did you know what Kevin was saying to law enforcement? [01:25:10] Speaker 3: I had no idea. [01:25:11] Speaker 2: Did you know whether Kevin was assisting law enforcement? [01:25:15] Speaker 3: I didn't know what Kevin was saying. [01:25:18] Speaker 2: Did Kevin ever use the word self-defense when you were in the house together? No. You've heard the video of, I'm sorry. You've heard the audio of Kevin and Tara Lynn that's been provided as an exhibit. Is that correct? [01:25:47] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:25:48] Speaker 2: And are you familiar approximately when that audio phone call took place? [01:25:54] Speaker 3: Yes. Right after Kevin was convicted of murder. Okay. [01:25:58] Speaker 2: Thank you. So, it was after his trial. Yes. And in that audio, Kevin has advised, or is talking to Tara Lynn. Is that right? [01:26:10] Speaker 4: Yes. Yes. Is there any more open-ended questions? Yes. That's more open-ended questions. [01:26:15] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:26:16] Speaker 2: Where does Tara Lynn live? [01:26:17] Speaker 3: Tara lives in Carlsbad, California, which is in San Diego County, California. [01:26:22] Speaker 2: And where does Kevin live? [01:26:25] Speaker 3: Kevin lives in the- I don't mean now, I mean back then. Oh, in American Fort, Utah. [01:26:33] Speaker 2: And how long had Tara Lynn lived there? [01:26:37] Speaker 3: Her whole married life, so it was 15, 16 years. [01:26:41] Speaker 2: And in the conversation of this audio we heard, to your understanding, where was Tara Lynn living then? [01:26:49] Speaker 3: Still in California. [01:26:51] Speaker 2: And where was Kevin living at the time of that telephone conversation? [01:26:56] Speaker 3: Utah. [01:26:57] Speaker 2: And where specifically in Utah? [01:27:00] Speaker 3: American Fork, Utah. Oh, where he was living when the conversation took place? [01:27:05] Speaker 2: That telephone conversation took place. [01:27:08] Speaker 3: The Utah County Jail. [01:27:10] Speaker 2: And so that was a jail call between- Yes. Is it your understanding that that was a jail call between Tara Lynn and Kevin? [01:27:17] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:27:18] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:27:19] Speaker 2: And you've heard that phone call before, haven't you? Yes. First time you heard that phone call was about how long ago? [01:27:27] Speaker 3: A few weeks ago. You played it for me? [01:27:31] Speaker 2: Yeah. I played- Once you played- Not in this trial, right? [01:27:35] Speaker 3: No. No, privately. [01:27:37] Speaker 2: And in that audio, Kevin says that he had talked to you about planning this murder of Matt, doesn't he? [01:27:49] Speaker 3: I heard him say that. [01:27:50] Speaker 2: He never said murder though, did he? [01:27:52] Speaker 3: No. [01:27:53] Speaker 2: And what is your best understanding of why Kevin would say that? [01:27:59] Speaker 4: Well, firstly- In speculation, Your Honor. [01:28:02] Speaker 1: In speculation- [01:28:04] Speaker 2: I can ask her understanding. [01:28:06] Speaker 1: I understand why Kevin would say that she hasn't talked with Kevin since the day of his arrest and she would have no idea. [01:28:12] Speaker 2: Well, she can have an opinion. Excuse me. [01:28:14] Speaker ?: Mr. McCabe. [01:28:15] Speaker 1: You're asking her to speculate, right? [01:28:16] Speaker 2: I'm asking her opinion on why Kevin would say that. [01:28:29] Speaker 1: I'll allow it, but just that one question. [01:28:33] Speaker 2: Thank you. What's your opinion on why Kevin would say that? [01:28:38] Speaker 3: My opinion is that Kevin was trying to shift some of the blame for what he had done off of him. Because Tyrolyn and his brothers and sisters are his loving support system while he has been incarcerated in jail. And he doesn't want to lose that while he's in prison. He- It is completely not true. It's not true what he said on that call. [01:29:21] Speaker 1: We don't have a question pending on that. [01:29:23] Speaker 3: Sorry. I apologize. [01:29:25] Speaker 2: Did you have a plan for Kevin to shoot Matt? [01:29:32] Speaker 3: No. [01:29:33] Speaker 2: Do you know how Kevin got the gun? [01:29:36] Speaker 3: I know that he took the gun from my safe. I did not know. [01:29:44] Speaker 2: That's a different question. [01:29:45] Speaker 3: I didn't know. [01:29:46] Speaker 2: I'm trying to ask a question. If you can let me ask a question. [01:29:48] Speaker 3: Please. [01:29:49] Speaker 2: Do you know where the gun was before Kevin shot Matt? [01:29:52] Speaker 3: Yes. Where? In the gun safe. [01:29:55] Speaker 2: Thank you. Did you know how Kevin got the gun? No. Has Kevin ever been in the gun safe before? [01:30:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:30:01] Speaker 2: How many times? [01:30:02] Speaker 3: Countless. [01:30:03] Speaker 2: And was it a common known keyboard? Very simple. How old is Kevin? [01:30:10] Speaker 3: Kevin was 36, 37, 38, somewhere there. [01:30:17] Speaker 2: When Kevin was suffering from depression, was this in and around the time of the shooting? [01:30:22] Speaker 3: No. [01:30:23] Speaker 2: Was it in and around the time of Disney? [01:30:25] Speaker 3: No. No. I mean it went Disney and it was in February and this was in July. So months later. Seven, six months later. I don't know that. [01:30:38] Speaker 2: You've heard the testimony of Kate? I have. You know that Kate has pled to certain charges? [01:30:49] Speaker 3: I do. [01:30:50] Speaker 2: Do you have an opinion on why Kate has pled? [01:30:56] Speaker 3: I do have an opinion. [01:30:59] Speaker 2: What's that? [01:31:00] Speaker 3: Kate realized the evidence supporting her plan to kill Matt was great. And she wanted to make a plea bargain with the state, with the government, so that she could spend the least amount of time in jail or prison that she could. She, I suspect she was intimidated by the government and by the evidence, which I don't blame her for being intimidated because it sounds like there was a lot. But I believe that she was making a deal, saying what she needed to, to have the least amount of time in jail as possible or prison as possible. [01:32:07] Speaker 2: Did you have a plan with Kate to shoot Matt? No. Did you have a plan with Rachel to shoot Matt? No. No. You know, Rachel had a text that we just saw yesterday, or Monday, or Friday, where she talked about shooting Matt. [01:32:25] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:32:26] Speaker 2: And what was your understanding? [01:32:28] Speaker 3: Saying she was going to shoot Matt? Yeah. [01:32:31] Speaker 2: Didn't you have a plan for that? [01:32:32] Speaker 3: No. [01:32:33] Speaker 2: Why would she say it? [01:32:35] Speaker 3: If she said that, then it was, again, a figure of speech, not intended to be executed in any way, shape, or form. [01:32:46] Speaker 2: Did you intend for Rory to go spend the night with Rachel on July 12th? [01:32:53] Speaker 3: I became aware of that plan after it was already in place. [01:32:58] Speaker 2: And you've heard a testimony of Rachel regarding that? [01:33:01] Speaker 3: Yeah. Rachel extended her an invitation. I knew that I had nothing to do with it. I didn't know if Tara suggested it or Rachel. I didn't know until yesterday, it was yesterday, Friday, who had invited her, where she got the idea. I heard myself. I didn't ask Tara Lynn. I didn't ask Rachel. I just know it wasn't me. [01:33:25] Speaker 2: You're aware that Kate offered a proffer letter to the prosecution in June of 2025, right? [01:33:37] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:33:38] Speaker 2: And in that letter, you are, one moment, I'm sorry. I need to get my wits about me. [01:34:08] Speaker ?: In that proffer, under paragraph 10, we can pull up that exhibit. What exhibit number? [01:34:17] Speaker 2: in that proffer in paragraph 10 we can pull up that exhibit defense exhibit number one page 2 paragraph 10 it reads Catherine and Kevin never discussed any criminal actions towards Matt do you see that I do see that are you aware of any criminal discussions between Catherine and Kevin are you aware of any discussions Kevin and Catherine had regarding criminal actions toward Matt no have you ever heard of any no now you have heard of Kate's testimony of that right yes and she testified that there was a meeting after sushi where you all three were present I heard her say that and then this letter says that that didn't happen didn't it yes you can take that down your honor I'm just going to take a moment I'm going to review my notes and see that that's appropriate [01:36:37] Speaker 7: we can pull up exhibit number 24 24 yes thank you [01:36:44] Speaker ?: so so this one [01:37:01] Speaker 7: this one [01:37:14] Speaker 2: this is state's exhibit number 24 do you see this text I do do you see the date of this text this text it's the 8th of June would you say that this expression by Kate was the worst time of her marriage with Matt [01:37:51] Speaker 3: it seemed like that was the normal theme that had been going on for a while that's a succinct expression [01:38:03] Speaker 7: and on page two [01:38:07] Speaker 2: she says that Matt just forced us for Matt just told me I forced us into poverty do you see that I do see that do you have any idea why she would send that to you or what was said regarding that [01:38:23] Speaker 3: she had told me that Matt had said that they were so broke because he was distracted because of he was suspicious of her affair because she would use a truck a lot she wasn't getting a job so [01:38:42] Speaker 2: and then the very next text says what [01:38:48] Speaker 3: I hate him [01:38:49] Speaker 2: and then the very next text says what [01:38:51] Speaker 3: how do I get out [01:38:53] Speaker 2: did you plan and conspire with Kevin to shoot Matt [01:38:59] Speaker 3: no [01:39:00] Speaker 2: did you ever ask Kevin to shoot Matt [01:39:02] Speaker 3: no [01:39:03] Speaker 2: did you ever plan and conspire with Kate to shoot Matt [01:39:08] Speaker 3: no [01:39:09] Speaker 2: did you ever ask Kate to shoot Matt [01:39:13] Speaker 3: no [01:39:13] Speaker 2: further did you ever ask Kevin to kill Matt [01:39:17] Speaker 3: no [01:39:18] Speaker 2: did you ever ask Kate to kill Matt [01:39:20] Speaker 3: no [01:39:20] Speaker 2: did you ever make a plan to kill Matt [01:39:23] Speaker 1: never [01:39:25] Speaker 2: no further questions your honor [01:39:27] Speaker 1: that's my see up thank you please be seated let's go back to the record a matter of state versus grist case two four one one zero one one seven zero I bring up the jury now council yes your honor space where are any objections no your honor let's bring them out [01:39:50] Speaker ?: let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state let's go back to the record a matter of state [01:40:30] Speaker 4: all right for the jury [01:40:32] Speaker 1: thank you please be seated ladies and gentlemen of the jury thanks for being patient we've been here the whole lunch hour so the attorneys just had some starts and stops as we go as we're working through some of the procedural matters as we get further into the trial this unfortunately happens more and more often so the attorneys aren't prepared or working diligently they are that in mind, Ms. Grist if you have a seat back up here please we'll remind you you're still under oath thank you [01:41:41] Speaker ?: thank you good afternoon, Ms. Grist [01:41:42] Speaker 3: I'm as good as can be expected but thank you for asking [01:41:47] Speaker 4: would you like me to refer to you as Ms. Grist or would you prefer something else? [01:41:51] Speaker 3: Tracy is fine Tracy [01:41:52] Speaker 4: Tracy I guess let's start with I was a little bit confused when you were testifying about where you were at in the house when Matt first came into the house on July 12th I'd like to show you it's marked as States Exhibit 86 if we could publish that for witness and the jury I can pause it right there so are those the stairs that go upstairs on the left? yes and you testified earlier that you could see those stairs from where you were sitting on the counter, correct? [01:42:56] Speaker 3: no I could see a part of them [01:43:00] Speaker 4: you could see a part of the stairs [01:43:02] Speaker 3: yeah I'm a part [01:43:04] Speaker 4: like the bottom part of the stairs? [01:43:06] Speaker 3: more the top [01:43:07] Speaker 4: and what's next to the stairs? [01:43:11] Speaker 3: it's a hallway [01:43:11] Speaker 4: and where does that hallway go? [01:43:13] Speaker 3: to the garage [01:43:14] Speaker 4: and you said after you heard the shots did you see you weren't able to see Matt when he got shot or you were able to see him? [01:43:23] Speaker 3: no I never saw him get shot [01:43:25] Speaker 4: okay so you couldn't see the carpet there where his body was laying [01:43:31] Speaker 3: no no [01:43:33] Speaker 4: and then you said you went where did you go after that? [01:43:37] Speaker 3: I went from the corner of the kitchen where I was it's not working this isn't working [01:43:52] Speaker 4: it won't work right now oh okay [01:43:54] Speaker 3: from the corner by the to the right of the stove if you're looking at it I went to the bottom of the stairs like to the head just where the carpet starts and then I went upstairs okay [01:44:11] Speaker 4: and you didn't see a knife at that time? [01:44:13] Speaker 3: I don't remember looking at his body and I don't want to say something that's inaccurate okay [01:44:26] Speaker 4: but you didn't see a knife no when you went up the stairs [01:44:29] Speaker 3: I don't recall seeing a knife I also wasn't looking really hard at him at all [01:44:40] Speaker 4: okay but you testified that you saw Kevin as you came to the corner right? [01:44:44] Speaker 3: yes [01:44:45] Speaker 4: and Kevin was holding a gun? [01:44:48] Speaker 3: Kevin had his hands behind his head so I don't know I don't know when he put the gun on the counter I think he put the I mean the gun was on the counter when I came back downstairs okay [01:45:02] Speaker 4: and you also said when you came downstairs you noticed a knife in his hand I believe you testified to that? [01:45:06] Speaker 3: yes [01:45:07] Speaker 4: and how long did you look at that knife for? [01:45:12] Speaker 3: milliseconds not like not very long but I leaned down to take his pulse and I was going to move the knife out of his hand okay [01:45:23] Speaker 4: was that the first time you'd ever seen that knife? [01:45:26] Speaker 3: yes [01:45:27] Speaker 4: okay okay and you said the garage is right there to the left of the stairs is that correct? [01:45:36] Speaker 3: yes it's down the hallway [01:45:38] Speaker 4: you testified a little bit earlier that well let me talk about this you have seven kids is that right? that is correct and you take care of them a lot you provide them financial support? [01:45:52] Speaker 3: when I can yes [01:45:54] Speaker 4: you provide them vehicles? [01:45:56] Speaker 3: not all of them no [01:45:58] Speaker 4: but some of them [01:45:59] Speaker 3: two two [01:46:02] Speaker 4: you have you are the one that hosts a lot of the parties and holidays right? [01:46:08] Speaker 3: when they're in Utah yes if I'm not in Utah then no [01:46:13] Speaker 4: okay and sometimes you buy them groceries? yes you plan Disneyland trips and pay for some of that right? [01:46:22] Speaker 3: one Disneyland trip and yes I paid for it in its entirety [01:46:27] Speaker 4: isn't it it's fair to say that you are very involved in your children's lives? yes you know what's going on with them? [01:46:36] Speaker 3: I try [01:46:36] Speaker 4: you know their issues? [01:46:39] Speaker 3: yes [01:46:39] Speaker 4: you offer support and guidance? [01:46:41] Speaker 3: yes [01:46:42] Speaker 4: you give advice? [01:46:44] Speaker 3: not so much advice sometimes I express my opinion but I try to mind my own business okay as far as like telling them what to do [01:46:55] Speaker 4: and wasn't it your idea to get Katie out to Utah to bring her and the kids? [01:47:01] Speaker 3: no [01:47:02] Speaker 4: wasn't it your idea to get a storage unit to help put supplies in? [01:47:08] Speaker 3: no [01:47:08] Speaker 4: aren't you the one that rented the car so she could come out? [01:47:12] Speaker 3: I paid for the car rental yes [01:47:14] Speaker 4: you got her a credit card so she could rent the credit yes rental car? [01:47:18] Speaker 3: yes [01:47:19] Speaker 4: aren't you the one that helped to write the note to leave that she could leave Matt? [01:47:24] Speaker 3: no I did not Tara Lynn did that [01:47:27] Speaker 4: okay what was your understanding of what Katie was coming out to do? just a breather? yes okay I can show you what's been marked as State's Exhibit 148 [01:47:37] Speaker 1: you said 148? yes thank you [01:47:52] Speaker 4: do you recognize what this is? [01:48:00] Speaker 3: could you make it a little bigger? do you recognize the text messages between yourself and Tara Lynn? that's between Tara Lynn and I yes [01:48:22] Speaker 4: and they start on June 20th 2024 right? [01:48:26] Speaker 3: yes oh yes I was sending Tara Lynn a picture of how I was welcoming the kids or the toys I opened up or whatever it was [01:48:38] Speaker 4: okay does it fairly naturally represent the conversation you had with Tara Lynn on your phone on the 20th of June? [01:48:46] Speaker 1: yeah I sent her a picture [01:48:47] Speaker 4: State would move to admit and publish State's Exhibit 148 [01:48:50] Speaker 1: any objection? no so admitted thank you [01:48:53] Speaker 4: now I can show you what's marked on page 2 if you start the next page if you could read what does Tara Lynn text you at the top? [01:49:01] Speaker 3: she says can you see the apple tag that I have labeled truck? it was Tabitha's and I switched the name on it and I said I'll look [01:49:12] Speaker 4: and I turn your attention to page 6 [01:49:18] Speaker 3: I said [01:49:23] Speaker 4: on the second if you read the second text what do you tell Tara Lynn? [01:49:29] Speaker 3: and we are just telling the kids it's a vacation to Grammys right? [01:49:35] Speaker 4: right and it wasn't a vacation to Grammys right? [01:49:39] Speaker 3: it was a vacation to my house yes it was a couple of weeks and the children don't need to know that mom needs time to think through their marital situation [01:49:52] Speaker 4: if I could just ask you to answer yes or no if this is what the text says is that okay? [01:49:57] Speaker 3: yes [01:49:58] Speaker 4: okay and then what is the next text that you say to Kate? [01:50:03] Speaker 3: and I told Kate to put Dab in where the spare is located so she doesn't get in trouble [01:50:09] Speaker 4: and what is Dab? [01:50:10] Speaker 3: Dab is marijuana [01:50:11] Speaker 4: what kind of marijuana? [01:50:14] Speaker 3: I don't know I don't use Dab I know they buy it in a form that looks like lip gloss [01:50:18] Speaker 4: so are you telling Kate how to put Dab how to sneak Dab into the state is that what you're telling her? [01:50:23] Speaker 3: I am telling her a way to use her marijuana and bring it so that she doesn't get arrested yes I am [01:50:31] Speaker 4: okay so you're giving her advice [01:50:32] Speaker 3: I was [01:50:33] Speaker 4: okay and you're at least aware of the storage unit at this time right? [01:50:40] Speaker 3: yes [01:50:40] Speaker 4: and if I turn your page to text next page page seven what does Tara Lynn tell you? [01:50:53] Speaker 3: so far so good just got the kids into the excursion and now we're going to the storage unit [01:50:58] Speaker 4: and the next state sent the next line [01:51:01] Speaker 3: I will relate all that information to her [01:51:05] Speaker 4: that's okay to Katie if I can turn your attention to page nine green square at the bottom on the right what do you text Tara Lynn? [01:51:18] Speaker 3: text ready [01:51:19] Speaker 4: do you remember what that meant? [01:51:21] Speaker 3: no [01:51:22] Speaker 4: okay if I can have you read the next page what does Tara Lynn say? she says ready and what does she text you? [01:51:29] Speaker 3: oh yeah yeah that was the that was the text that Tara Lynn had fashioned for Kate to send to Matt when whenever Kate decided to send it [01:51:42] Speaker 4: but you asked her if she was ready to send that text correct? isn't that why you asked her text ready? [01:51:47] Speaker 3: no I meant is the text ready for Kate to have [01:51:51] Speaker 4: right why are you asking that if you're not a part of it [01:51:55] Speaker 3: I didn't say I wasn't I was aware of it it was not my text it didn't need my approval I didn't send it Tara Lynn Kate had asked Tara Lynn to help her so that when she sent her first text to Matt that it was something that would be received okay [01:52:19] Speaker 4: okay on page 12 you could go down Tara Lynn sends you the text that she sent she prepared for Kate right? yes and then what do you say on the next text below? [01:52:35] Speaker 3: I said oh no tweaks needed [01:52:38] Speaker 4: and I can turn your page attention to page 15 whose idea go ahead and read the second text [01:52:53] Speaker 3: who also who is the admin for a fan damn chat [01:52:59] Speaker 4: what do you say in the next text [01:53:01] Speaker 3: we just need to drop him off of it [01:53:04] Speaker 4: who are you talking about there [01:53:06] Speaker 3: we're talking I'm talking about Matt being dropped off of the family chat so that we could communicate in a way that had more privacy okay [01:53:18] Speaker 4: so what's your idea to drop Matt from the family chat correct? [01:53:23] Speaker 3: I think it was both it was for sure mine but also Terrell ends in Kate it [01:53:32] Speaker 4: wasn't you're the one that brings it up here right at least we've been [01:53:36] Speaker 3: talking about it prior to that [01:53:37] Speaker 4: okay but in this text chain you're the one that brings it up [01:53:40] Speaker 3: yeah [01:53:40] Speaker 4: and you had testified earlier that you were not happy that Kate was dating when she was in Utah right [01:53:57] Speaker 3: I saw her need to get out and have space and be distracted and I disapproved I disapproved also [01:54:14] Speaker 4: I had [01:54:15] Speaker 3: mixed feelings about it [01:54:16] Speaker 4: you disapproved about her dating [01:54:17] Speaker 3: I had mixed feelings about it okay [01:54:20] Speaker 4: if I could show you what's been marked as state exhibit 149 if you publish that witness do you recognize what that is yes and what is this [01:54:41] Speaker 3: that's a text from me [01:54:43] Speaker 4: to who [01:54:44] Speaker 3: probably Kate okay yes it's Kate because Kate calls me mama on text [01:54:53] Speaker 4: and what date is from [01:54:54] Speaker 3: the 6th of July [01:54:57] Speaker 4: okay do they fairly accurately represent the text that you and Kate gave to each other on July 6 yes state would move to admit and publish state's exhibit 149 [01:55:07] Speaker 1: any objection no objection so order thank you [01:55:10] Speaker 4: if I could have you start reading on the bottom on the bottom left far a little farther there we go blast blue square rectangle what do you tell what do you tell Kate [01:55:24] Speaker 3: FYI totally aside I'm super happy you're getting out on Monday [01:55:28] Speaker 4: and if you could read the next few texts on the next page [01:55:31] Speaker 3: I love you going to bed and Kate and Kate says I'm looking forward to it [01:55:38] Speaker 4: and the next one [01:55:42] Speaker 3: I say I she says I love you too [01:55:48] Speaker 4: okay and do you know what you're talking about here [01:55:50] Speaker 3: her getting out on Monday yeah I think she was going out probably to have lunch or dinner with somebody she had met online [01:55:59] Speaker 4: okay if I could turn your attention to the next page you go ahead and read what text you sent next [01:56:07] Speaker 3: and please don't be worried about Matt's sadness because he literally chose this if he would have put in 20% effort worked and been kind this would not have been his life [01:56:21] Speaker 4: and the next few texts [01:56:22] Speaker 3: she says okay and I say I'm excited for Monday for you and I say I hope that every part of you understands how much I'm rooting for your joy and happiness [01:56:36] Speaker 4: so isn't it fair to say that you're the one that brought this up with Kate [01:56:39] Speaker 3: then I brought what up with Kate [01:56:42] Speaker 4: you're excited for her date on Monday [01:56:44] Speaker 3: I was happy she was having a moment to get out although I was trying to play both sides I did not approve of her dating but also she's hard to she'll flare up [01:57:01] Speaker 4: and I can I just have you answer yes or no to some of these questions [01:57:04] Speaker 1: I think it's a non-responsive answer so I'll remind you again you're not here to give a narrative response if it's yes or no answer it's yes or no answer got it each job to follow up both Mr. Tavi and Mr. Facemar will follow up don't you [01:57:19] Speaker 3: yes sir [01:57:20] Speaker 4: okay so you were supportive of Kate and dating correct [01:57:24] Speaker 3: sometimes not entirely [01:57:30] Speaker 4: you were in these text messages at least you were very supportive and excited for her right [01:57:34] Speaker 3: that's what I texted and you [01:57:36] Speaker 4: told her not even to worry about Matt's feelings correct [01:57:38] Speaker 3: that's what I texted [01:57:41] Speaker 4: let's talk a little bit about Amy Johnson does she have any other names I'm sorry who Amy Johnson [01:57:55] Speaker 3: Amy Johnson is also Amy McClellan [01:57:59] Speaker 4: okay and how many times since February of 2024 to July of 2024 did you visit her in California [01:58:07] Speaker 3: two times [01:58:09] Speaker 4: what days were those [01:58:10] Speaker 3: sometime in March there was a four day weekend in March when she asked me to come out and then there was I was going to be there for the entire month of April but I was only there for two weeks [01:58:29] Speaker 4: okay and you were there to help her move I think that's what you testified to yes and she her husband had died in December right that is correct and she was you're going to help her move to like an assisted living yes and so when you got there you were helping her clean up things around the house right yes cleaning out the freezer and things yes helping her cancel subscriptions and things like that yes and who else was staying at the house when you were there [01:58:57] Speaker 3: staying at the house yes no one just me [01:59:01] Speaker 4: so you were staying with Amy was just you two there yes and some point you actually put a keybox on her house correct yes because you were going to help her maybe try to show it or sell it to other people was that why you did that [01:59:16] Speaker 3: it was because her health was so her health was so compromised that when I was leaving if the fire department needed to get in they would have to break the door down and so we got the keybox I ordered the keybox and put the key in there so the fire department could have access quickly if she needed help [01:59:45] Speaker 4: okay and on April 10th 2024 you emailed my tactical promos you remember that [01:59:51] Speaker 3: I do now yeah I remember because I've seen the the emails yes [01:59:58] Speaker 4: and you stay specifically stop sending text tactical mystery boxes correct yes did you ever see a tactical knife when you were at Amy's house [02:00:06] Speaker 3: no [02:00:07] Speaker 4: did you ever take anything from Amy's house without her remission no I'd like to what mark show you what's been marked as state's exhibit [02:00:16] Speaker 1: 147 147 [02:00:22] Speaker 4: you recognize what these are [02:00:30] Speaker 3: they're texts between myself and my daughter Tara Lynn [02:00:34] Speaker 4: on what date [02:00:35] Speaker 3: March 18th [02:00:38] Speaker 4: okay do you remember this conversation [02:00:40] Speaker 3: yes do they [02:00:43] Speaker 4: fairly inoculately represent your text messages with Tara Lynn on March 18th 2024 yes statement to admit and publish to the jury [02:00:49] Speaker 1: any objection so admit it [02:00:53] Speaker 4: okay this is a little lengthier so if I could just start having you read some of these text messages until we get to about page 10 are you okay to start reading and I stop you if I want to ask you some questions on that is that okay yes okay if we could start talk in five if you just say who's saying what so is that Tara Lynn that's saying [02:01:26] Speaker 3: Tara Lynn said in five [02:01:28] Speaker 4: okay [02:01:28] Speaker 3: I said call and and I was giving her the address 20385 Rancho Via Road Ramona [02:01:41] Speaker 4: isn't that to you that's a text to you [02:01:44] Speaker 3: oh that's from Tara Lynn to me yes [02:01:45] Speaker 4: do you recognize that address [02:01:47] Speaker 3: yes that's Amy's address [02:01:48] Speaker 4: okay send [02:01:52] Speaker 3: to Amy just now I misplaced my work phone the battery isn't charged so I can't call or ping it no biggie I can forward my work calls my personal phone I'll let you know when I find it I love you [02:02:06] Speaker 4: okay stop you right there you texted that to Amy McQuillan right then [02:02:10] Speaker 3: yes I did [02:02:11] Speaker 4: and what why did you text her that [02:02:12] Speaker 3: because I was saying that I lost my work phone [02:02:15] Speaker 4: okay you keep reading [02:02:17] Speaker 3: so she next next one my phone will show its last location so you can say that it was last spotted at her house 24 hours ago or something like that [02:02:31] Speaker 4: okay are you talking with Tara Lynn at this point about making the plan to tell Amy that you lost your work phone when you in fact did not lose your work phone that [02:02:38] Speaker 3: is correct [02:02:39] Speaker 4: okay and you're doing this so you Tara Lynn has an excuse to go over to Amy Nicole in's house correct she [02:02:44] Speaker 3: was yes [02:02:45] Speaker 4: okay if you could keep reading [02:02:47] Speaker 3: okay so if anyone finds a random cell phone let me know just let me know and then after a few minutes this my work phone shows its last location in your house but then maybe the last place the battery was charged at all first bathroom on the left is where the cat food is walk through that little closet area and that is the office when you're in the office turn left bottom drawer all the way to the front of the drawer it's in a flip file labeled Ford F-150 you may as well just take both titles as well as the entire folder just so you know no one ever uses that bathroom so it's not really a bathroom to use because there's no toilet paper because the cat plays with it [02:03:44] Speaker 4: what does Tara Lynn say [02:03:45] Speaker 3: Tara Lynn says this feels so crazy lol call me I'm getting ready to go in like half an hour I will regret if we don't make sure that Amy is totally safe even using means that are a little bit coloring outside the lines [02:04:05] Speaker 4: next text [02:04:06] Speaker 3: besides Amy really loves you take a picture of your marriage picture so you can show her on your phone and ask her if she still has that because if she didn't know what I was talking about when I mentioned it [02:04:23] Speaker 4: we could we could just skip to page 16 what does Tara Lynn send you a picture of [02:04:30] Speaker 3: oh that's a picture of I think that's a picture of a title for a airstream [02:04:40] Speaker 4: isn't that a picture of a title that you just had her take from Amy McColland's house no without her knowledge [02:04:46] Speaker 3: no [02:04:47] Speaker 4: no [02:04:48] Speaker 3: I never had that title [02:04:49] Speaker 4: but Tara Lynn went into her house without her permission without her and took the title on your direction didn't she [02:04:57] Speaker 3: not that title [02:04:58] Speaker 4: she took a title [02:05:00] Speaker 3: she took she did and I brought them back in April [02:05:03] Speaker 4: right I'm asking did you ever take anything from I asked you earlier if you took anything from Amy McColland's house without her permission [02:05:10] Speaker 3: I directed Tara Lynn to take two titles and it was they were brought back in the following month or three weeks later because the home health care provider I just [02:05:28] Speaker 4: asked did you have Tara Lynn take title from Amy McColland's house without her permission [02:05:36] Speaker 3: yes [02:05:37] Speaker 4: okay and then you go back to her house in April right yes and you are working on April 10th you send an email to my tactical promos asking them to stop sending tactical boxes right [02:05:49] Speaker 3: yes [02:05:50] Speaker 4: and Amy died two days later right [02:05:53] Speaker 3: I don't know exactly what day I texted the tactical one I don't know [02:06:00] Speaker 4: did Amy die when you were there [02:06:02] Speaker 3: she did [02:06:03] Speaker 4: and you were the only one there with her right I was and you had access to the house right yes and you were staying there so you were at the house after Amy died correct [02:06:17] Speaker 3: no I left the house after when I went to the hospital whether the only thing I did was [02:06:24] Speaker 4: yes or no [02:06:25] Speaker 3: no I didn't stay at the house after Amy passed away [02:06:28] Speaker 4: okay you didn't have your stuff there at the house that you need to go collect [02:06:31] Speaker 3: I collected it immediately after I left the hospital and went straight to Tara Lynn's [02:06:37] Speaker 4: okay [02:06:37] Speaker 3: and her the gardener was there [02:06:43] Speaker 1: there's no opinion question [02:06:45] Speaker 3: sorry [02:06:45] Speaker 1: and tell me [02:06:48] Speaker 4: tell me your feelings on Matt how do you feel about Matt [02:06:50] Speaker 3: Matt loved Kate and he was hard on Kate Matt loved his kids and he was hard on the kids it was hard for me to watch [02:07:02] Speaker 4: did you want Kate to get a divorce [02:07:04] Speaker 3: that's Kate's decision did [02:07:07] Speaker 4: you want her to that's your opinion [02:07:09] Speaker 3: my opinion no I didn't want her to get a divorce I would have rather that she work out her marriage and live on the property and have a good life it's her decision [02:07:31] Speaker 4: and you and Matt fought a lot right [02:07:36] Speaker 3: we didn't fight [02:07:38] Speaker 4: there was times he told you you're not even welcome back at the house is that a fight [02:07:42] Speaker 3: that was when Kate came to my home in July that he said I wasn't welcome [02:07:51] Speaker 4: okay did you did you go to Kate and Matt's house in May of 20 May 23rd of 2024 yes okay you went there right you not remember having a text conversation with Kate that says Matt takes back what he said you can stay at the house now I can refresh your recollection if you like [02:08:15] Speaker 3: yeah I remember having that [02:08:21] Speaker 1: I remember [02:08:28] Speaker 3: that but I don't remember why he was mad at me [02:08:34] Speaker 4: is that because you he's mad at you so much of the time [02:08:39] Speaker 3: no you [02:08:43] Speaker 4: just don't remember I [02:08:44] Speaker 3: don't I could probably have my memory refreshed but I don't remember right this second even though I'm trying [02:08:51] Speaker 4: okay I could show you what's been marked as state exhibit 117 oh I'm sorry it's exhibit [02:09:21] Speaker ?: 31 31 [02:09:21] Speaker 4: and if you could scroll to the last page [02:09:41] Speaker 1: yes [02:10:00] Speaker 4: and you recognize this as a text message chain between you and Kate [02:10:08] Speaker 3: yes [02:10:09] Speaker 4: okay if I could scroll the last page okay scroll up to the top one more up right there what does Kate tell you on May 23rd 2024 Matt [02:10:28] Speaker 3: redacted all he said about you not being able to stay here you are more than welcome here [02:10:33] Speaker 4: and what did you say [02:10:34] Speaker 3: okay [02:10:36] Speaker 4: and again [02:10:37] Speaker 3: I'm glad [02:10:39] Speaker 4: and what did you say again [02:10:41] Speaker 3: I wanted to be able to see your babies and hang out and see you [02:10:44] Speaker 4: okay so is it fair to say that on May 22nd or May 23rd things had gotten so bad with Matt that he had banned you from the house or at least you couldn't stay with them at the house [02:10:55] Speaker 3: I would say that's not fair to say [02:10:58] Speaker 4: did you not say that I wanted to be able to see your babies and hang out and see you did you say that yes so doesn't that imply that you weren't allowed to come to the house [02:11:10] Speaker 3: he was mad at me and then he got over it I don't know I can't you're not helping me remember what he was frustrated at me for I don't know [02:11:20] Speaker 4: okay but I'm asking you is that what you said did you say that on May 23rd 2024 at 946 a.m. that you wanted to be able to see your babies and hang out and see you [02:11:31] Speaker 3: yes [02:11:31] Speaker 4: and the reason you said that you were glad is because Matt had retracted being mad at you [02:11:36] Speaker 3: yes [02:11:37] Speaker 4: which implies that he had told you that you were not welcome [02:11:40] Speaker 3: I think he told Kate [02:11:42] Speaker 4: okay but you were aware that you were not welcome [02:11:44] Speaker 3: yes [02:11:44] Speaker 4: and then if I could turn your attention to page 109 or exhibit 109 if you could scroll down to your text on May 23rd [02:12:05] Speaker ?: farther [02:12:07] Speaker 4: down okay what do you search on May 23rd at 12 10 p.m. [02:12:33] Speaker 3: what scent attracts mountain lions [02:12:36] Speaker 4: and the search above it [02:12:37] Speaker 3: the same thing [02:12:38] Speaker 4: no it's not the same thing what does it say number 287 [02:12:42] Speaker 3: what scent attracts mountain lions to humans [02:12:47] Speaker 4: okay and you're aware that there's mountain lions on the property right [02:12:52] Speaker 3: I'm aware that Matt said he saw mountain lions [02:12:57] Speaker 4: okay you were aware that Matt had told you there had been mountain lions on the property right [02:13:01] Speaker 3: I didn't believe him [02:13:02] Speaker 4: okay but the day after or the day that you've been fighting with with Matt you're searching what scent attracts mountain lions to humans correct [02:13:12] Speaker 3: yeah it was a joke okay [02:13:15] Speaker 4: and then if I could turn your attention to exhibit 117 recognize what these are [02:13:33] Speaker 3: texts [02:13:34] Speaker 4: between who [02:13:35] Speaker 3: between Kate oh between Matt and myself [02:13:39] Speaker 4: okay and this is the do you recognize what date this is and why it's important [02:13:45] Speaker 3: yes this is the day that Kate was to arrive in Utah to my home and [02:13:53] Speaker ?: and [02:13:53] Speaker 3: three [02:13:54] Speaker ?: and three [02:13:54] Speaker 3: hours so yeah I recognize it [02:13:56] Speaker 4: okay if I could turn your attention to page seven scroll down what does Matt tell you at 103 a.m [02:14:09] Speaker 3: enjoy your short time with them you will not be welcome in our house again [02:14:14] Speaker 4: okay is that the first time that's ever told you that [02:14:16] Speaker 3: it's the second time well the second time that I'm aware he didn't tell me directly [02:14:23] Speaker 4: it's just a yes or no [02:14:24] Speaker 3: it's the second time I'm aware [02:14:27] Speaker 4: okay and then on page eight go down what does Matt tell you again [02:14:36] Speaker 3: again you will not be welcome in this empty house I told you to back off how dare you lure her and take the kids and split out of state what crap tampering with my kids and their future [02:14:49] Speaker 4: and if we could go to page nine what does Matt tell you [02:15:03] Speaker 3: my life is none of your business it was not vacation time [02:15:07] Speaker 4: and finally page 17 what does Matt tell you on June 22nd 2024 [02:15:15] Speaker 3: I will read your text but I will not reply to you anymore [02:15:19] Speaker 4: and in fact that's the very last text you ever or communication you ever received from that isn't that right [02:15:25] Speaker 3: I guess it is I'm not sure [02:15:29] Speaker 4: I'm really not sure that's fine but it could be the last text that you ever received you don't recall any other texts or phone calls with Matt right [02:15:38] Speaker 3: no I don't think so [02:15:42] Speaker 4: okay I'd like to turn your attention to and also in these texts he threatens to call the police on you right yes he tells you that you kidnapped the kids [02:15:52] Speaker 3: I heard [02:15:53] Speaker 4: I read that text and you sent those some of those texts to Kevin right yes and in fact you go when you start searching up things on the internet right recall that on June 22nd [02:16:08] Speaker 3: searching for things about [02:16:10] Speaker 4: about a person taking the kids without telling the other parent [02:16:14] Speaker 3: yeah I probably was I was wondering about the legality that the legal position that Kate has because he was threatening to call the police and I had no idea [02:16:25] Speaker 4: he was threatening to never let you see the grandkids again right [02:16:27] Speaker 3: no [02:16:28] Speaker 4: did he not just tell you that you were no longer welcome in that house again [02:16:32] Speaker 3: the kids leave the house I could see them at Tara Lynn's house or other places and I didn't think it would step last [02:16:40] Speaker 4: you testified earlier that if Matt wasn't going to Disneyland neither were the kids do you remember that yes so you had made Matt really mad this time right [02:16:50] Speaker 3: that when Kate came to Utah yes I'm sure he was the most mad he's ever been at me [02:16:57] Speaker 4: and he told you that you are no longer allowed in his life did he not [02:17:01] Speaker 3: yes [02:17:03] Speaker 4: okay and so when you look up stuff about parental kidnapping and things you're looking on the internet right you're finding information about how serious of a problem this could be right [02:17:13] Speaker 3: I'm looking because I don't know the case right [02:17:17] Speaker 4: but you're finding stuff out right [02:17:18] Speaker 3: I'm looking yes [02:17:20] Speaker 4: and you've been married four times yes you know how custody works yes and you've been successful in your custody battles right [02:17:26] Speaker 3: yes [02:17:27] Speaker 4: your kids aren't seeing their dads right [02:17:29] Speaker 3: my kids dads chose not to see them [02:17:33] Speaker 4: okay but they're not seeing their dads right [02:17:34] Speaker 3: you mean currently [02:17:38] Speaker 4: no [02:17:39] Speaker ?: no no no [02:17:39] Speaker 4: when you went through the custody battles and went through the divorces [02:17:42] Speaker 3: every time that the dads wanted to be able to have any kind of [02:17:48] Speaker 4: yes or no question [02:17:49] Speaker 3: ask me again then [02:17:50] Speaker 4: you had won the custody of your children in your divorces [02:17:54] Speaker 3: I had primary physical custody yes and your [02:17:58] Speaker 4: children rarely ever saw their biological fathers correct whether that's on their own doing or not that's correct right [02:18:07] Speaker 3: rarely it's a [02:18:14] Speaker 4: yes or no [02:18:15] Speaker 3: yes [02:18:15] Speaker 4: and in fact you knew that Kate's situation is different right [02:18:24] Speaker 3: of course [02:18:26] Speaker 4: and Kate had been charged with domestic violence right [02:18:28] Speaker 3: yes [02:18:30] Speaker 4: and Kate was a heavily user of dab right concentrated marijuana [02:18:35] Speaker 3: yes [02:18:36] Speaker 4: and if there was a custody battle and she had already taken the kids out of state without her permission without Matt's permission she was not going to be in a good place for custody right [02:18:48] Speaker 6: I'm asking [02:18:54] Speaker 4: her based on her experience you knew that Kate was not in a good position for custody correct [02:19:01] Speaker 3: I'm sure if she had an attorney they would help her navigate that I don't [02:19:06] Speaker 4: know but you know she talked to an attorney right [02:19:09] Speaker 3: as far as I I was trying to get her to talk to attorneys since the beginning of July she as far as I know she spoke to one and I was it's a yes [02:19:19] Speaker 4: or no question you know she talked to an attorney right [02:19:21] Speaker 3: one attorney yes [02:19:22] Speaker 4: okay on July 11th right [02:19:23] Speaker 3: yes [02:19:25] Speaker 4: you listened to those calls [02:19:26] Speaker 3: no [02:19:27] Speaker 4: you listened to the call you testified you listened to the first few minutes [02:19:29] Speaker 3: yes [02:19:30] Speaker 4: and then you said you asked Kate about it she just told you what they said [02:19:32] Speaker 3: no I said that I would she could just easily regurgitate to me what the attorney said I [02:19:40] Speaker 4: okay but you knew it wasn't good right the attorney said that it wasn't she didn't have a good chance of having staying in Utah having a divorce that [02:19:47] Speaker 1: misstates the evidence I think it's such a confusing statement we're all okay rephrase it did you [02:19:54] Speaker 4: ever hear the attorney say that Kate could not stay in Utah with the kids and have a divorce [02:20:00] Speaker 3: no [02:20:01] Speaker 4: okay so I want to take your attention to well first you testified earlier you wanted Kate to stay out there right [02:20:18] Speaker 3: to stay in Utah [02:20:20] Speaker 4: permanently in Utah not permanently but you testified that you wanted her to stay for a while [02:20:24] Speaker 3: maybe another week or two after what she did stay [02:20:30] Speaker 4: right and isn't that the whole reason that you came up with the plan that she would sprain her ankle is forced not to drive the truck out [02:20:37] Speaker 3: that's a two-part question [02:20:40] Speaker 4: okay do you remember the plan to sprain the ankle [02:20:42] Speaker 3: I do it was Tara Lynn's idea [02:20:45] Speaker 4: okay and you testified that the purpose of that plan was so that Matt would have to drive the truck out [02:20:52] Speaker 3: incorrect [02:20:54] Speaker 4: and that the reason that the truck she wanted to ride the truck out is because it couldn't make it out to Utah so then it wouldn't be an option right [02:21:02] Speaker 3: that was confusing the [02:21:05] Speaker 4: reason that you wanted Matt to drive the truck out is because it wasn't in condition that it could make it to you didn't [02:21:14] Speaker 3: no [02:21:15] Speaker 4: okay but you did not did you want Matt to come out [02:21:23] Speaker 3: no [02:21:23] Speaker 4: ever [02:21:24] Speaker 3: no [02:21:25] Speaker 4: okay I'd like to turn your attention to what's marked as states exhibit 119 do you recognize what that is [02:21:37] Speaker 3: this is a text between my brother my sister and myself [02:21:41] Speaker 4: okay you can move up down to the next page further up down okay what is your what is who's talking to you on June 29 2024 [02:21:55] Speaker 3: that's my brother Christopher [02:22:01] Speaker 4: okay and what does he say [02:22:03] Speaker 3: he said how's Matt taking it [02:22:05] Speaker 4: and then what does he say [02:22:07] Speaker 3: he says not that you care [02:22:08] Speaker 4: that seemed to suggest that you don't really talk kindly about Matt to your brother and sister [02:22:13] Speaker 3: yes [02:22:14] Speaker 4: okay let me go to the next one what do you say [02:22:17] Speaker 3: I want him to show up [02:22:19] Speaker 4: okay so you did want him to show up [02:22:21] Speaker 3: I wanted him to talk to Kate but no it's like I did say it in there yes I did okay so you did want him to come out I didn't want him to show you said it [02:22:32] Speaker 4: you said it [02:22:32] Speaker 3: I said it it doesn't mean that I meant it [02:22:35] Speaker 4: on June 29th you said it [02:22:36] Speaker 3: yes yes she had been at my house for nine days and [02:22:42] Speaker 4: okay let's turn your attention to June 16th [02:22:53] Speaker 3: okay [02:22:54] Speaker 4: you found out the day before that Diana canceled the Vegas trip with Kate and Matt right [02:23:03] Speaker 3: is that the right date I don't remember the date okay [02:23:09] Speaker 4: do you remember a time in June where [02:23:11] Speaker 3: I do remember sometime in June when Kate said the Vegas trip had been canceled [02:23:17] Speaker 4: okay and Kate comes out on June 20th right [02:23:20] Speaker 3: yes [02:23:20] Speaker 4: okay and I'd like to show your car log from June 16th if we could move to Met States exhibit 114 that looks [02:24:02] Speaker 3: to be correct yes [02:24:03] Speaker 4: okay if I can turn your attention and move to the very bottom okay and the very first person you call that morning is who [02:24:18] Speaker 3: number 19 [02:24:22] Speaker 4: yes [02:24:23] Speaker 3: that would be Tara Lynn [02:24:24] Speaker 4: okay and you remember what you talked about 616 [02:24:30] Speaker 3: yes I remember some of the conversation yes [02:24:33] Speaker 4: what was the conversation about [02:24:34] Speaker 3: about Katie coming out to Utah that's when I was talking on speakerphone at least part of the time and David was saying like in a half joking half serious manner what are you going to do if Matt shows up and I go ahead and you're [02:24:59] Speaker 2: talking your honor he asked what was the conversation I think she gave the continue is that [02:25:05] Speaker 1: the conversation or is there more to it I don't [02:25:07] Speaker 4: that's how she was done [02:25:08] Speaker 1: okay why don't you find out there okay [02:25:12] Speaker 4: you talked about Matt correct yes you talked about Katie coming out [02:25:16] Speaker 3: I'm sure we did [02:25:17] Speaker 4: okay and then your next phone call that you have if you could scroll up a little bit is to Costco credit card right yes and that's the call to go and get Kate a Costco credit card right [02:25:29] Speaker 3: yes to add her as an authorized user [02:25:32] Speaker 4: okay before you testified that you had called like a week and a half before but clearly this call occurred on June 16th right [02:25:39] Speaker 3: yeah I guess I was just mistaken on the on when I made the arrangements it was not [02:25:51] Speaker 4: oh that's okay but but just so we can get it clear if if Diane canceled the Vegas trip on June 6 15th right [02:25:59] Speaker 3: on June 15th [02:26:02] Speaker 4: correct [02:26:02] Speaker 3: there would [02:26:03] Speaker 4: be no reason for Kate to get a rental car until June 15th or later correct [02:26:08] Speaker 3: I don't understand what you're saying [02:26:10] Speaker 4: if Kate was going to drive or go on a Vegas trip with Diane before she canceled on June 15th you wouldn't have called to get a credit card to rent a car before then right [02:26:24] Speaker 3: that sounds right [02:26:26] Speaker 4: okay so this would be the time where you are making these plans for Matt and Katie correct yes and this is the time that you call and get the Costco credit card yes okay [02:26:35] Speaker 3: I wasn't trying to be challenging [02:26:38] Speaker 4: to you okay and if we could go to states exhibit 109 if we could go to page I believe it's 20 we could go to page 20 maybe 16 sorry page 16 [02:26:57] Speaker 1: 16 [02:26:58] Speaker 4: okay so while you're on the phone and you've already testified to this with Tara Lynn you search Utah gun legend Utah gun law registration right yes and while you're also on the phone you search Utah shoyt break-in [02:27:14] Speaker 3: I think just came up like you know how things pop up I don't think that I searched [02:27:21] Speaker 4: that does your phone say google search Utah shoyt break-in [02:27:25] Speaker 3: I don't remember making that search [02:27:29] Speaker 4: okay so the computer made of typo and made a search for you is that right is that what your testimony is [02:27:36] Speaker 3: I'm saying I don't remember making that google search and I don't know how these come up if if you when you click on something I don't know how it shows up because I don't [02:27:51] Speaker 4: remember making that search okay we go up to the next page and then you start clicking on some websites including Utah State gun laws and registration explained [02:28:02] Speaker 3: yes [02:28:04] Speaker 4: do you remember searching that I do [02:28:06] Speaker 3: I mean not specifically but I remember you know vaguely the conversation and searching [02:28:13] Speaker 4: okay and you're also searching out you know divorce stuff correct [02:28:18] Speaker 3: yes I am [02:28:20] Speaker 4: okay if I go up the next page [02:28:22] Speaker 3: am I on the phone with her at that same time I don't know [02:28:24] Speaker 1: okay there's not a question so stop oops oops [02:28:27] Speaker 4: if we could go up a little farther and then on June 17 2024 you deleted your search history all right [02:28:37] Speaker 3: I don't remember deleting my search history [02:28:40] Speaker 4: okay but if the phone came back with the metadata showing that those website web histories and searches had been deleted and it appears that occurred on June 17th at 9 51 p.m. would you agree that's what your phone showed [02:28:53] Speaker 3: yes [02:28:54] Speaker 4: and this is also the same day June 16th that Rachel asks you say say hey what's up dude or something like you got to tell me more about that do you remember that conversation with Rachel [02:29:22] Speaker 3: I don't but I remember that one text because I remember seeing the word dude [02:29:27] Speaker 4: okay do you remember her you also texting her back you have a plan for Rory too [02:29:33] Speaker 3: I don't have no idea what that's referring to I was I don't know what that's referring to [02:29:39] Speaker 4: you remember texting her Kaitlyn Johnson the next this a minute a minute before saying hey can Rory come [02:29:48] Speaker 3: stay with you or come visit you visit you stop and see her yeah remember that yes okay those [02:29:53] Speaker 4: happened within minutes of each other you remember that I don't remember but I remember seeing it on the text yes okay so you don't remember what the plan was you were talking to Rachel about [02:30:03] Speaker 3: okay no I don't remember the plan about what for Rory doing anything and I do remember that my daughter Rory said she wanted to go on a road trip to Seattle and I texted Kaitlyn and asked her if she could stop [02:30:20] Speaker 4: by and see her okay and your daughters Carolyn and Rachel again later that day started texting about shooting Matt getting going out and practice shooting before Matt had a chance to come out do you remember that text in this in this trial would you pull it up please sure you remember Rachel's text on June 16th yes now I'm seeing it [02:31:20] Speaker 3: and what does Rachel say that's between Rachel and Tara and when it said he wanted to know I'm thinking it was David you just showed that to me [02:31:32] Speaker 4: I'm just asking you about the text on the top three it says no unfortunately because make it hard [02:31:37] Speaker 3: to get out and go shooting haha we need to coordinate with mom and take it up before any chance of Matt coming lol she needed me to babysit okay I just did how'd you read that but [02:31:52] Speaker 4: is is Rachel not talking about shooting Matt in this text I do not believe so okay is she talking about getting her gun ready before Matt comes out I don't know what she's talking about I mean that's what it looks like but okay but this is also four days before Katie even leaves right it is four days before Kate leaves okay so you don't ever remember joking about shooting Matt no that was not between me and that was between Rachel and Tara Lynn and no Rachel said it was Rachel testified that you would joke about shooting [02:32:28] Speaker 3: Matt I don't remember joking about shooting Matt [02:32:44] Speaker 4: okay on the day of July 12th 2024 say that date again July 12 2024 okay that's the day that Matt comes out to Utah okay and you testified that you were surprised that Matt was driving out right yeah and that was that's the biggest concern you had is like I can't believe he's driving out is that what you testified to yes because you didn't think you could make it in the truck right yes okay I'd like to I'd like to show you what's been marked as states exhibit uh 10. 10. 10. yes if I can go up to page 22 go down is this when Kate first tells you that Matt's going to drive out [02:33:48] Speaker 3: I believe that's the very first moment I heard that he was going to drive out [02:33:53] Speaker 4: let's go down let's go down okay stop right there not once in those text messages you mentioned any surprise about Matt [02:34:10] Speaker 3: driving out do you I called her and expressed surprise but I already knew that my surprise came from the fact that his truck was not insured not registered and not long-term trip worthy I know so I thought that he was going to be essentially stuck in California until Kate went back home okay Kate did not want to go back home [02:34:39] Speaker 4: right she didn't want to but she knew she had to she was dating right yes and dating to the point that she even tried to bring someone to the hotel the next day right yes so you knew she wasn't going back [02:34:56] Speaker 3: no I did not know she was not going back I believed with all my heart she was going to have to she was definitely going back I didn't know when there wasn't any bags packed I thought she was had bags packed there was no suitcases there she just was going to put all the the the sterile light drawers into the bed of the truck and take and put whatever else she whatever she wasn't packed it was going to be either easily done or [02:35:31] Speaker 4: you didn't see her any bags ever in the front room right or any clothing or anything no but I didn't go upstairs at all and now you have a conversation with her right on the this next stream okay yes [02:35:48] Speaker 3: and what do you say there well I just got enough the oh I say sorry honey bunch I'm really happy that Matt's going to try I'm a little nervous about it but I hope that it works out because you have a sweet little family okay you can keep reading and I'm super happy that he stopped drinking and then she likes that one and then she responds me too I want us to be happy all to be happy together I put to Katie this is literally the only thing I care about I've just always appreciated that your husband loves you and loves your kiddos you just have to do your best too I'm coming home so we can talk about it later you really need to be invested in doing the best you can I know you have been I just love you so much and she liked that okay keep reading hey there please let Matt know that he's welcome to spend the night if he's too tired after driving all day I promise I'll stay away and I'll be sweet as candy she says okay and then I say to her or else if you guys want I can give you a hundred dollars or so towards a hotel so you can stop if you need to and she says okay I'll tell him and I say I'm not trying to get in your business at all I just want him to know that if he needs to rest he can rest at the house or we can get a hotel room for you guys or maybe you could start driving just start driving and go back home because driving to go back home because you will not have driven all day the way he did and then I said even a hotel room in st george might be okay and then I put 200 for a hotel room I can handle as opposed to the rental car on the way back and she says on the phone okay on the phone with him now I said very good that's the last text messages you have with Kate that day is that right um probably if you're telling me that's the case then [02:38:15] Speaker 4: I'll say yes I can't sounds right and these text messages were intended for Matt right no they were intended for Kate these were text messages you were having just a conversation with Kate and this is what you were telling her and how you feel yes okay so if I could go up one when you say 200 for a hotel room I can handle as opposed to the rental car on the way back [02:38:44] Speaker 3: because she would have to explain to him why I could afford a 200 hotel room when I was acting like I couldn't afford a car rental she'd have to explain that to him right and again I'm asking you yes or no [02:38:58] Speaker 4: questions okay if we can just stay with that so Kate wasn't there was no rental car Kate knew that there was no rental car going back Matt had already paid for a rental car right objection and Matt already paid for a rental car [02:39:15] Speaker 6: are you aware that Matt gave Kate money he put money in her account for a rental car yes okay and [02:39:30] Speaker 4: so you are also aware you also know that Kate was never going to go back in a rental car to California [02:39:37] Speaker 3: Kate wasn't going to go back on that day in a rental car to California okay so you say 200 [02:39:43] Speaker 4: dollars for a hotel room I can handle you said that right yes and you also said as opposed to a rental car on the way back yes okay and these are things that she ended up telling that right I don't know if she told him or not but you these are things you wanted her to tell Matt yes okay I could have your I would like to play for you what's been marked as state's exhibit [02:40:10] Speaker 1: 117. [02:40:32] Speaker 8: good how are you pretty good what's going on I just called to see how your drive is going I'm just passing that abandoned water park oh fun cool yeah I just like like right now yeah my mom said my mom said if you're too tired um when you get here that we can always you can always sleep here she said she'll keep her distance she'll actually be asleep um okay or or if we want we can get a hotel um she she said she she'll give us 100 bucks towards it no no no no it's not like that I guess I just want to [02:41:28] Speaker 9: I just want to see my baby to you just I brought my pillow and everything else right so I'm really worried about it so what did you want what do you want to do I want you to be comfortable I will be I just be [02:41:47] Speaker 4: okay okay okay and you heard kate testify right yes and kate testified that her part of the murder plan was to make sure that matt went into the house right [02:42:15] Speaker 3: I don't remember her saying it quite like that [02:42:22] Speaker 4: okay was kate's part of the murder plan that she testified to to make matt feel comfortable so he would come into the house there was no murder plan that I was a participant was that kate testified to I'm not saying you were part of it I'm saying did kate testify to that [02:42:38] Speaker 2: I'll object at this point your honor kate has testified to what she testified to [02:42:43] Speaker 1: that was the question and she's not responsive for the question so ask the question and respond to [02:42:47] Speaker 4: the question did you hear kate testify as to what her part in what she believed the murder plan to be [02:43:01] Speaker 3: I don't remember I'm trying to remember what her words were that's okay [02:43:09] Speaker 4: and if I could turn your attention to the call log on 117 is that right page 12. page 12. i'm sorry or exhibit 12. it's paper or is this an audio it's paper you could go to the two the two minute and 20 second call that phone call i believe detective nordine testified to was at 2 20 pm correct if you do you remember that hi can you explain to me i know at this point i would just ask for some [02:44:20] Speaker 6: foundation of what i'm looking at because i don't know what he's referring to it might be helpful [02:44:26] Speaker 4: it's okay i'll strike that you all right thank you okay does it make sense to you that matt would have come into the house with a knife no it doesn't in fact matt pulled up in front of the house and parked over cardboard yes he did he did that so he wouldn't leak any oil on the street yes and did you see kate go and put the cardboard out front no weren't you washing off the porch earlier that night yes i was you didn't see the cardboard at that [02:45:02] Speaker 3: time i wasn't no i don't think so no no i would have noticed so no okay and [02:45:10] Speaker 4: matt came into the house right yes didn't knock he didn't ring the doorbell correct he took off his sandals and put them nicely in front of the carpet right that's what i saw in the photos yes so you believe that to be true i do and you heard kate testify and you heard those phone calls right of kate's phone calls to him yes and there's nothing that matt believed other than he was coming to pick up his family right yes so there would be no reason for him to even be angry or worried at all right no and your testimony is um he came in and he walked back through the back behind you right he came in through the kitchen living room into the kitchen yes dining room dining room and then he turned the corner into the hall is that what you testified to no he came into the dining room and [02:46:08] Speaker 3: then he went back the same way he came so he never went into past the kitchen no okay and then you heard gunshots yes and did you go over immediately no how long did you take it's hard to say exactly but i was kind of in shock that and i was um confused okay and you go up to the you go upstairs first is that the first thing you did after i had a few words exchanged with kevin yes and i went upstairs are [02:46:53] Speaker 4: you looking for your phone at this point no and you go upstairs you talk to kate right yes and then you come back downstairs you can't find your phone right yes and at that point you decide to check his pulse [02:47:08] Speaker 3: before i looked for my phone is when i checked for his phone and you checked on his wrist right wrist [02:47:14] Speaker 4: first and the wrist that he'd been shot on yes and you didn't notice any i didn't notice any injuries whatsoever and you already believed him to be dead at that point right i was trying to determine [02:47:29] Speaker 3: if he was alive or not and how did you determine that i was trying to look at his breathing look at his chest and to feel for a pulse and you checked twice on that wrist right yes wrist that had the [02:47:44] Speaker 4: knife in it right yes and the knife stayed in his hand while you're doing that i was gonna take the [02:47:49] Speaker 3: knife out but you didn't i didn't okay and then you find your phone over by the counter where you've been sitting right on the next counter on the other side of the stove but yes and then you call the police [02:48:05] Speaker 4: yes and as soon as you call the police you realize that the neighbor caitlyn is called [02:48:10] Speaker 3: no i was i didn't know that the neighbor called so but so when she said caitlyn i was confused because i was trying to figure out if i why would i be called by a name and it was wrong i was [02:48:27] Speaker 4: just confused okay and then you tell the police that you need an ambulance right yes these are just yes or no questions okay and you told the police that you thought he was breathing right i think i asked so yes or no if you don't remember you can just say you don't remember i [02:48:48] Speaker 3: i asked kevin to check to see if he was breathing [02:48:55] Speaker 4: and the police show up right then right yes i'd like to play what's marked the states exhibit 104 [02:49:12] Speaker 5: uh fly 12 20 24 22 15 45 [02:49:27] Speaker 10: 9-1-1 what's the address of the emergency 114 south 920 east american fork okay tell me that one more time to make sure that i got it correct 114 south 920 east [02:49:46] Speaker ?: okay and is this caitlyn no [02:49:54] Speaker 10: okay what's going to make you to get disconnected 801 651 2695 and my daughter my tracy okay my daughter my daughter's husband came here they're going through a separation and he brought a knife and my son shot him okay i i need an ambulance okay i understand and it's at this home yes and who is it to you your husband my daughter's husband okay is he conscious of breathing i think he's breathing okay i've got an ambulance that way i've also got an officer that's coming into the area do you think he's beyond help or are we do you think you may be okay are you comfortable checking on him [02:50:53] Speaker ?: i have an officer um [02:51:01] Speaker 10: where is the gun at where is he at in the hallway are you comfortable looking to see if he's breathing kevin kevin kevin check it check if he's breathing check if he's a pole check okay [02:51:32] Speaker 4: okay so the police come right then right yes and you're standing we're pretty close to where you were when the shooting occurred right yes kevin's where he was when the shooting occurred right [02:51:47] Speaker 3: no kevin was at that point he had he was on the other side by the well he had moved back twice he had he was at his feet then his head and then yes or no well he had to open the door okay so he had to move from by matt's head where he was kind of checking for his vitals to go open the door okay and [02:52:15] Speaker 4: when they show up all the pleat all the lights were on and off in the house except for the lamp that was [02:52:20] Speaker 3: by the counter right the porch light was on and the lamp in the kitchen was on okay but none of [02:52:26] Speaker 4: the lights were on were in the hallway right no okay none of the lights were on in the kitchen or the living room right the kitchen light was on it [02:52:34] Speaker 3: was the living room it was a little lamp right yeah but not any other lights right i don't remember i'm sure there's lights on upstairs [02:52:44] Speaker 4: and then you get taken outside right yes and you've never seen that knife before right no it was the first time you've seen the knife yes and you were looking at it in the dark mostly for eight minutes right [02:53:02] Speaker 3: i probably wasn't staring at the knife for eight minutes i was looking more at matt and then kate and kevin okay and but when you talk to diane rustelli on the phone [02:53:17] Speaker 4: and she asked you tell her what kind of knife it is right yes you tell her it's a tactical knife right yeah yes okay and you heard the body cam of officer laycock right i heard what do you what are you trying to hear kate tell officer laycock that she heard yelling [02:53:40] Speaker 3: before the shooting i don't remember hearing her say that to an officer okay but i believe you okay [02:53:46] Speaker 4: is yes or no do do you remember hearing that no okay and do you remember seeing the officer take kate out into the yard and put her a little bit away from you yes yes and you remember that you wanted to go and try to talk to her and try to go and sit by her yes and you were even told by officer neil that you weren't allowed to right yes and then you talked to officer stimson and then you kind of tried to again do you remember that you tried to talk go and sit and talk to her again [02:54:14] Speaker 3: i probably i don't remember doing that but i probably did because i was wanting to hold her hand or [02:54:23] Speaker 4: something okay and you yell over to kevin you say i don't know what's going on or i don't know what to do is what you said do you remember that i don't know what to do so don't [02:54:35] Speaker 3: say anything if is that what the quote is that on the body cam i'm asking if you remember i remember telling him i remember calling to him something but i don't remember word for word what i said okay and [02:54:56] Speaker 4: and while while this is going on you're thinking about who caitlin is on the number one call or do [02:55:02] Speaker 3: you know already i think that's the furthest thing from my mind i'm not thinking about that [02:55:08] Speaker 4: i don't phone call anymore no you don't you didn't you knew who it was right you called it wasn't [02:55:15] Speaker 3: registering until later when i had time to think so no you knew did you know any other caitlins in [02:55:22] Speaker 4: the area no did you know your neighbor was caitlin yes and the reason that you were worried about what time caitlin called is because you couldn't come up with a story isn't that right no and that's why you try to talk to kate to tell her not to so you could tell her that the plan was over right that the where there's a new plan i have no idea what you just said you were calling an audible from the plan that's why you needed to talk to kate right no what say that again please you would have a plan with kevin and kate to kill matt no okay and you went and kate didn't know that when you guys were out in the hall went out went out to the lawn right kate wouldn't have known the plan changed right after your phone call with 9-1-1 no i no and so kate tells the officer that she heard yelling right i don't remember hearing that [02:56:26] Speaker 3: at all i don't know what she talked to the officers about and initially on your 911 call you told the [02:56:32] Speaker 4: police that matt came in with a knife right yes and then you said later that you never saw a knife [02:56:40] Speaker 3: i was reporting on the phone call what kevin had said to me because because i asked him what happened and he said matt had a knife yes sir no ask the question again did you tell the police that you [02:56:57] Speaker 4: never saw a knife after the phone call with 9-1-1 [02:57:04] Speaker 3: i told the police that when i saw him in the dining room that i don't remember seeing a knife [02:57:11] Speaker 4: okay and then you needed to find out what time that your neighbor called 9-1-1 so you could make a plausible story isn't that correct absolutely not okay so that night you go to the police station right yes you start calling a bunch of people some attorneys right my friend who's an attorney yes okay and you're there and you're tired right i didn't feel tired you didn't go to sleep that night right no i didn't and when you get home or wherever you get to the hotel who's the first person you talk to do you know i do know i don't know okay i'd like to show you what's been marked the states exhibit 37. [02:57:54] Speaker 3: okay and who is this conversation oh it's with caitlin i this isn't talking this is texting that's texting okay first person you had communication i hadn't looked at my phone um okay is it yes or no [02:58:14] Speaker 2: just a yes or no i just want a yes or no question so i'm going to object your honor i think the line of questioning is intentionally trying to confuse my client first saying that he called her and then bringing up a text exhibit and then saying he's texting and he's asking for this defendant to keep him on track of his questions it's impermissible to intentionally confuse a defendant trying to get some [02:58:41] Speaker 4: reported answer i'm not trying to confuse her i could be more specific i don't think he's trying to [02:58:46] Speaker 1: confuse her mr mr on face but i do say let me finish let me finish but i do think that we have changed some semantics texts aren't calls and so i can see where that can unintentionally confuse somebody but i don't see that as deliberately confusing something mr facebar so let's just be a a little more precise okay i tell my witnesses to be precise let's be a little more precise okay if i [02:59:09] Speaker 4: could just draw your attention scroll down a little bit okay what time does your neighbor text you well it was up higher or the last one what's the bottom one there last ones that when is she what [02:59:24] Speaker 3: does she say uh she says lady i don't know what's going on but i'm praying and hugging you hard okay what [02:59:32] Speaker 4: time do you text her back at we go to the next one five in the morning 5 17 a.m what do you say [02:59:39] Speaker 3: i said thank you okay and she doesn't text you back right it was five in the morning no i guess i [02:59:45] Speaker 4: don't i guess not and then you text her again right what time do you text her again uh about an hour and 20 minutes later what do you say long long night okay and if i can continue having read the conversation [02:59:59] Speaker 3: what time does she text you finally and she texts back at almost a half hour later and says was it your son-in-law [03:00:11] Speaker 4: you keep reading [03:00:14] Speaker 3: and i said yes and she tells me that a bullet went into our garage and i said omg and she says oh man just him question mark and i said yes i said he had a knife and my son kevin shot him and she says oh man i'm so sorry and she says i'm glad you guys are okay i said me too and i said kevin is still being held at the police station because it's being investigated and she asks do you guys need anything and i said maybe later and she says oh man i'm sure that's normal are you home or did you guys have to leave and i let her know we're at the now i'm at the holiday and express in american fork we can't be there yet right now i'm just grateful my kids and grandkids didn't get hurt i'm probably going to rest probably not sleep until kevin is out and she says me too i saw them going into your to your garage when the cops asked me to go outside i was like oh thank god we were praying and i asked her what time did you call 9-1-1 yes huge huge hugs get some rest please let me know if we can help and i said did you call 9-1-1 or did another neighbor [03:02:10] Speaker 4: okay we can stop there and you heard the jail phone call between kevin and tara right i did and i could play that for you one more time we can move to publish state's exhibit 132 [03:03:01] Speaker 11: she ruined so many lives and i'm worried to hurt her feelings [03:03:08] Speaker 12: yeah and i asked if she was sure she was sure because she was like to tell me anything about all this stuff got to happen and i was like are you sure this is exactly what happened and i'm like she's scheming and doing all this and she said yes and she beat cheyenne that was her response or he beat cheyenne [03:03:57] Speaker 13: oh my god [03:04:00] Speaker 12: i don't know where to hear i'm sorry that but i i i want to tell you that for so long [03:04:06] Speaker 13: no i know i can't even imagine i can't even imagine [03:04:13] Speaker 12: i still bear so much of a blame too for all this [03:04:20] Speaker 13: and that makes me so mad that she's caused you to have to live with it [03:04:26] Speaker 12: i mean i could i could have thought something different i i should have started off and i should have said no [03:04:33] Speaker 13: yeah yeah but your mom should have never asked you that you should have never had to have to say no [03:04:49] Speaker 14: the same person who planned this is the same person who baked cookies it's the same like [03:04:59] Speaker 12: that's that's wild like she's the one who made me my chocolate chip cookies without chocolate chips [03:05:05] Speaker 14: i know yeah and blueberry muffin cake for your birthday [03:05:10] Speaker 12: but this is what she wanted to do this is i mean she had it there's consequences she had it too [03:05:19] Speaker 14: i just don't think she just doesn't think far enough ahead she never has and i think she just is so used to getting more of everything she just [03:05:30] Speaker 12: i literally warned her i said this will change so many lives you don't even know how many lives [03:05:35] Speaker 14: it's going to change oh my god you said that wow yes [03:05:43] Speaker 12: i said this is this is this is something you can't think back i said that to her [03:05:50] Speaker 14: wow kevin [03:05:56] Speaker 12: yeah so there's that [03:05:59] Speaker 14: the reason that we all wish we could like seriously that's what rachel and i were talking like the reason she didn't want to tell us is because she didn't want to hear our opinion but you gave her the opinion that we would have given her like what the are you saying this is insane this is gonna you can't do this kind of thing [03:06:19] Speaker 12: i literally warned her i was like this is going to have long like i said i don't remember exactly what i said but i know i got the cross very eloquently and very efficiently of like this is not the best idea you're having like think about it for a second [03:06:43] Speaker ?: oh my god [03:06:45] Speaker 12: but and then i that's why i feel so much blank because i would step up at that point and be like you know i need to take my own advice [03:06:55] Speaker 4: and that was your son kevin ellis right that was kevin he was saying that you were the one that made this plan right that's what he said and you believe that's because he's trying to save face with the rest of your family right yes but kevin has been mad at you since the beginning right since july 12th [03:07:27] Speaker 3: i don't know if he's been mad at me or not i could show you you said you have not talked to kevin [03:07:32] Speaker 4: since the incident correct i could show you it's martin stakes exhibit 131 do you know who these text messages are between no are these not text messages between you and tara lynn from august 6 2024 oh that sounds right so less than a month after the incident right uh-huh you tell tara lynn please tell kevin that if he is mad at me and doesn't want to talk to me that he doesn't he doesn't have to and later you say i am mad at me too and i will love him no matter what yes [03:08:19] Speaker 1: thank you redirect [03:08:49] Speaker 2: you're very involved in your kid's life is that right yes when you sent a text to kate offering for a hotel room is that you being involved in your kid's life it's me offering to help and be involved yes how old is kate 36 or 37 and have you found that kate always does what you tell her to do no have you found that kate most of the time does what you tell her to do no have you found that kate rarely does what you tell her to do yes and has that been the kate who's been your daughter yes and so as you have given advice to kate and words of encouragement to kate on all circumstances has she heeded your advice [03:09:58] Speaker 3: sometimes yes mostly she chooses and does what she thinks is best on exhibit 148 you advised her [03:10:08] Speaker 2: uh to put a dab in the spare tire do you remember that text we saw i do and uh you were basically telling her where to put marijuana is that right yes are you a marijuana smoker no and why did you [03:10:24] Speaker 3: advise her to do that to avoid getting in trouble because i was trying to protect her from being arrested while she's traveling across state lines with something that's illegal in one state and sometimes legal or not [03:10:39] Speaker 2: legal in another state okay is it your understanding marijuana is legal in california yes is it your understanding marijuana is not legal in the state of utah i thought if you have a green card you [03:10:52] Speaker 3: it's sometimes legal a green card it's um a card medical marijuana use card okay so there's some [03:11:01] Speaker 2: times here in the state of utah to your understanding you can use marijuana is that right yes with a proper card yes but in california is it your understanding that's not needed yes and did you know that she was driving about 275 miles in the state of utah yes who was in the car with her her two children and what would happen in your estimation if she got pulled over for law by law enforcement during that drive on june 20th [03:11:37] Speaker 3: she would either get a ticket or get arrested yeah and were you trying to avoid that worse option yes [03:11:44] Speaker 2: did it cross your mind that if she got ticketed and arrested 200 miles from home that the two babies would be alone and in custody of someone else yes were you trying to protect that situation did you approve of her smoking no did you want matt dropped off the fandam chat account yes why so for privacy so that [03:12:11] Speaker 3: kate could kate could say things about where she is or what she's doing and choose to tell matt what [03:12:17] Speaker 2: she'd like not have him just read what was going on is this is this account uh open to all family members [03:12:26] Speaker 3: who have phones yeah i don't think everyone's on yes yes is it open to tara lynn yes is it open to rachel [03:12:34] Speaker 2: yes is it open to kevin yes can you just text silly things to each other on yes on this text yes is it open to david who is tara lynn's husband yes is it open to matt who is kate's husband yes is it open to rachel's husband whose name i don't know michael yes okay so it's open to lots of family and on june 20th a major event took place didn't it yes tara lynn excuse me kate left her husband yes and so is that the reason you asked that he be removed from the fandam account yes [03:13:11] Speaker 3: did you disapprove of her dating kate i had mixed feelings about it i disapproved but was trying to [03:13:20] Speaker 2: not rile her up so what what what in your estimation would have happened if you said to your daughter who's 36 37 years old you shouldn't date how do you think she would have responded [03:13:34] Speaker 3: she did respond i said no a couple of times she pouted she got mad [03:13:42] Speaker 2: nothing major but she didn't heed to your advice no so when you texted her saying going out on monday remember that text you saw earlier yeah was that going out on monday an opportunity for you to [03:13:57] Speaker 3: disapprove of her dating i was no i was trying to be nice [03:14:08] Speaker 2: trying to keep the peace with your daughter kate yes but it was always peaceful with kate wasn't it no that text you also stated that matt chose this yes how did you say matt chose this she was expressing [03:14:27] Speaker 3: to me that it was hard to hear matt be sad and i was telling her don't worry about it he created the situation of arguing and he at least participated in the marital discord [03:14:43] Speaker 2: do you think the alcoholism had a lot to do with matt's choice yes in relationship to the relationship [03:14:48] Speaker 3: absolutely yes [03:14:54] Speaker 2: amy johnson's a friend of yours she is did you uh take stuff from amy johnson without her knowing or did you have someone assist in that i had tara lynn help yes uh did you uh that that screenshot of a title did that title get taken from no no isn't it true that in that text you asked her to take a picture [03:15:14] Speaker 3: of the title it was there was several titles that picture of the title was never never left amy's house [03:15:23] Speaker 2: did you handle uh amy's properties with appropriate care yes did you defend amy during times of her end of life yes did you have to defend amy and the times of the end of life yes and why is that [03:15:41] Speaker 3: she had a home health care provider who was coming in at nine to five nine to nine to five ish every week every day and i could tell she was taking advantage of amy she had already taken a tiny home and moved it to her property the home health care person yes took a tiny home yes with amy's verbal permission is what she said um and it wasn't purchased it was a gift that amy had given her and she was trying to get the an airstream also onto her property and so i was feeling like the home health care person was not the person who should be accepting gifts of that magnitude and i was really worried about amy's condition was amy frail she's vulnerable yes she's very vulnerable was amy frail yes [03:16:46] Speaker 2: okay do you recall uh on page 87 of exhibit 108 the discussion about mountain lions yes were you trying to get mountain lions to eat matt no thank you isn't it true that you and kate and rachel and tara lynn and kevin all participated in a conspiracy to lure matt to utah and kill him no uh you've heard the testimony of rachel is that right yes you've heard the testimony of tara lynn is that right yes did you find the questioning toward them by prosecution indicated they feel that they participated in the conspiracy i need to finish the question [03:17:40] Speaker 6: i did with the word of conspiracy all right what was your objective mr [03:17:45] Speaker 4: just having to speculate about sorry he was having to speculate about other people's feelings [03:17:51] Speaker 1: well i think it is speculation to talk about other people's feelings you want to rephrase it go ahead [03:17:58] Speaker 2: in in what i'm asking and i'll i'll do it here first so we're having a legal moment okay sorry judge i'm asking if in her opinion the questions being asked to rachel uh by the prosecution during her examination on during this trial was in uh implying that rachel was a participant in the [03:18:21] Speaker 1: conspiracy to commit murder and or kill matt what do you feel the questions of the prosecutor meant when [03:18:41] Speaker 3: he asked rachel about the gun text it seemed to me that they the government the prosecutor were trying to pull rachel into and accusing her of a conspiracy to kill matt would you say the same thing about the mountain lion search [03:19:03] Speaker 2: yes would you say the same thing about the gun rights search absolutely yes far removed from the time that matt even came to utah isn't that right yes indeed uh you weren't aware that matt was coming to utah until the day he came isn't that right that's correct was it your understanding the day before that he was not coming to utah yes was it your understanding the day before that indeed kate was being asked to go to california yes you cited in your questions with the prosecutor that you knew the truck did not have insurance did not have a licensing uh how did you know that kate told me and you've heard the phone calls in this trial talk about some of the issues with the truck and not being able to travel correct yes yes including in the phone calls getting a travel permit yes do you have any idea what a travel permit is [03:20:07] Speaker 3: i only heard about it since when matt borrowed it from a neighbor i have an idea [03:20:19] Speaker 2: indeed you're being uh accused of the conspiracy of matt regarding the parental kidnapping searches aren't you [03:20:27] Speaker 3: yes and why did you search parental kidnapping because matt was saying that i was kidnapping the kids or kate was and i needed more information were you protecting your children at that time yeah or at least one child yeah [03:20:49] Speaker 2: there's questions asked you about custody battles do you remember those questions by the prosecutor i do you've been divorced how many times four and had you been involved in custody battles in those divorces custody disagreements how about uh the divorce itself and custody battles who gets custody [03:21:14] Speaker 3: yeah we've discussed in two of the divorces we didn't see eye to eye but did you come to an agreement oh yes [03:21:24] Speaker 2: how long did it take a month or two did it require conversations yes did it require each party bending a little bit to come to an agreement yes did you think kate would not get custody of the [03:21:41] Speaker 3: children no i thought she would get custody the way divorce where you share custody you thought it'd be a [03:21:50] Speaker 2: shared custody experience yes how old was steel three he turned four did you think matt would get custody [03:22:02] Speaker 3: yeah i guess he would get shared custody yes did you feel matt loved his children yes [03:22:07] Speaker 2: do you feel matt loved kate yes do you remember texting your brother i want him to show up yes who are you referring to as him matt [03:22:23] Speaker 3: and why did you want matt to show up i wanted him to come and talk to kate because then he would be talking the way i thought it would happen on the 20th which is around people have a conversation where he they could talk and about a very sensitive subject like divorce yes have you ever [03:22:48] Speaker 2: seen or heard matt and kate talk about sensitive things before no have you ever heard matt and kate talk about non-sensitive things before yes did it ever get volatile yes did it ever get extreme yes did it ever worry you yes did it worry you how kate responded to matt yes did it worry you how matt responded to kate yes did you find their interaction verbally uh to be wrong yes so the reason you stated to your brother on june 29th that you want him to show up is that [03:23:30] Speaker 3: you wanted matt to have that conversation yeah in a place where it would be safe for them and possibly they could make progress if there were other grown-ups around this is only nine days after [03:23:46] Speaker 2: let me finish and then you can finish and you didn't there either so these are recorded so we need to know who's talking okay yes perfect thanks did you get reminded during the prosecution's questions about the time frame of the costco credit cards yes so does that seem to be accurate about when you called caco to get the credit cards yes are you lying about the purpose of why you got costco credit cards no why did you get a costco credit [03:24:16] Speaker 3: card for kate so that she could rent a car and have a credit card to buy things and what was the purpose of that credit card so she could rent a car and drive out to utah and you knew that to be the case [03:24:28] Speaker 2: absolutely back before kate came to utah did you conspire a plan to send rory far away to seattle so that she wouldn't have to see a murder of matt no what was your understanding of the whole situation [03:24:48] Speaker 3: regarding rory and you're from from the state of washington rory whimsically offhanded in offhanded way asked if she could go if she she was thinking of driving to seattle she's i think she was 19 at the time so she's in that place where she would want to do a road trip do you feel that question was asked [03:25:12] Speaker 2: you by prosecution to involve that storyline with the conspiracy to murder matt yes [03:25:31] Speaker 3: where was all of kate's items while she was living at your house upstairs in my closet area [03:25:39] Speaker 2: and at the foot of my bed in the master bedroom yes you're sleeping in the basement on an air mattress yes there were also toys in the main level is that right yes did you ever see things packed excuse me did you see things packed by kate in preparation for her to go to california i didn't see anything [03:26:04] Speaker 3: packed per se but i was making sure all of her clothes were cleaned for her to pack i wasn't paying attention to her process in your estimation how long would it take for kate to pack her stuff [03:26:18] Speaker 2: throw them in the truck and head out 15 minutes so she didn't have a lot of stuff no in your comment regarding the text of money for the hotel and money for the rental car do you remember that text yes a little bit ago why did you say the 200 to cover for the rental car i said it because [03:26:47] Speaker 3: i was telling kate was telling matt that there was no money for a rental car but if i was offering her money for a hotel i wanted her to be able to explain to matt yeah she could pay for the couple hundred dollars for the hotel but the rental car was too much i was not being honest with um the situation to matt because i had enough money to rent a car and let her get back to utah [03:27:30] Speaker 2: how well do you remember the 10 minutes after matt was killed [03:27:41] Speaker 3: some parts i remember clearly some parts i don't remember at all and some parts are kind of in the middle [03:27:51] Speaker 2: do you remember seeing matt when he first arrived yes at the house i'm sorry i did it again [03:27:59] Speaker 3: i remember seeing yes i do thank you did he have a knife i didn't see a knife [03:28:08] Speaker 2: if you were to plan a conspiracy would you have come up with a really good plan yes like he had a knife yes like you heard arguing yes like you heard fighting yes did you say any of those things no when the 911 operator mentioned the name caitlyn did you have any idea what she was talking about no were you confused yes did you know that she was actually referring to your next door neighbor caitlyn no did you find that out sometime later yes you've heard kevin's voice in that video or the audio recording yes have you ever had an opportunity to speak from the jail yes and are you aware that these recordings are recorded [03:29:15] Speaker 3: yes how are you aware it says so every time you start a phone call that the call is being recorded [03:29:22] Speaker 2: so not only does the person making the call know but the person receiving the call knows isn't that correct yes and kevin said that you're scheming is that right yes kevin said that uh she beat cheyenne then he corrected he beat cheyenne yes and then he said i wanted to tell you for so long yes but why didn't you tell her i don't know i i'll ask a question and then he said i should have said no yes did kevin ever tell you he did not want to shoot matt no you haven't ever tell you he wanted to shoot matt no did kevin ever tell you that he warned you about how this would change lives no kevin had been in jail almost two years at this point hadn't he yes did kevin literally warned you about the damages it all caused no did kevin tell you he was using cocaine no was kevin using cocaine yes [03:30:47] Speaker 1: no further questions [03:30:55] Speaker 4: is it true that every single thing that every witness in this case has been asked about has been their own statements through the evidence yes their own cell phone call logs yes text messages yes their own web history yes and oftentimes if i ask you a hard question you have a hard time answering that objection your [03:31:22] Speaker 2: honor that mistakes for way of testifying today okay so when when you say that you want to kill matt [03:31:29] Speaker 3: it's just a joke right it's an expression it's not a joke per se it's an expression of frustration so [03:31:40] Speaker 4: searching mountain lions you're not really thinking about mountain lions eating matt it's just an expression [03:31:45] Speaker 3: of frustration that would have been a joke how's that funny because matt would say that he saw mountain lions and katie would always kate would tell me he says he's never seen a mountain lion he says he sees scat he says he sees he's seen a mountain lion and he doesn't and i looked it up to see if it said anything so i could say he should wear a i don't know just like i was going to make a joke back to her comments [03:32:19] Speaker 4: so it's just a coincidence but this is the day after matt had told you you know that you would finally welcome back at the house right it's just a coincidence yes and you can't remember searching shooting an intruder even though it says google search right you can't remember that correct and but kevin did in fact shoot matt right yes and he told the police that basically matt was an unarmed was an armed intruder isn't that correct yes that he entered the [03:32:56] Speaker 3: house without permission right i don't know if he told the police that did you see the interview did i see kevin's interview yes i don't think so okay [03:33:12] Speaker 4: and you agreed that there is no there isn't it's not reasonable that matt would have had a knife right yes i agree that's reasonable but then you can't even tell me whether matt had a knife or not [03:33:22] Speaker 3: when he got shot i said i didn't see one in his hand you were mere feet from him sitting in the kitchen [03:33:30] Speaker 4: right yes you hear a whole bunch of gunshots right i didn't see matt get shot right but you don't you you heard a bunch of gunshots right yes all you had to do was basically lean forward and look over and you could have seen it right i wouldn't have you said you could see the stairs yes and now you're saying you walk over there you [03:34:02] Speaker 3: get within inches of him and you don't know if he has a knife that is true i didn't it doesn't i don't remember seeing a knife i i'm trying to remember in fact it's okay you didn't see a knife that's your testimony right i don't didn't i wasn't looking for anything i okay it's a yes or no you [03:34:28] Speaker 4: didn't your answer is no you did not see a knife right yes okay but when you're on 911 call you said matt came in with a knife right yes and that your son shot him yes and you told diane that that didn't knock on the door yes didn't ring the door doorbell right yes and you were using that as justification to explain why matt got shot weren't you [03:34:59] Speaker 3: i was using it i was saying i didn't hear the doorbell or a knock explaining i he came into [03:35:05] Speaker 4: the house and unexpectedly okay so the same thing you don't remember searching right shooting an intruder is the same thing that ended up happening with kevin shooting matt right yes and then you delete it and you don't even know how you deleted those searches the very next day right i don't know but i i delete [03:35:27] Speaker 3: things different randomly nothing for you [03:35:32] Speaker 6: redirect 108 i'm sorry [03:35:40] Speaker ?: why the waiter 108 page 20. 21 thank you [03:35:57] Speaker 6: okay okay so i'm looking at [03:36:15] Speaker 7: call one is that search history oh yeah search history one it's 20. 29. sorry 20. page 20. 21. entry 285 [03:36:41] Speaker 2: so do you see [03:36:44] Speaker 6: sorry that's not the right one is that 21 of 53 or is that 21 of 57 so i'm looking for the other switch what's the date on that [03:37:05] Speaker 7: let's go to 616 can we let's just find 616 instead of going to a different exhibit it's going to be up a little more keep going keep going keep going oh [03:37:36] Speaker 2: keep going down right there thank you we have this we have the same exhibit on on different printouts [03:37:59] Speaker 1: yes judge i'm sorry no i understand that's funny there's a lot of exhibits working so june 16th 2024 [03:38:07] Speaker 2: that is in and around the time of the decision cape makes to go to utah is that accurate yes and you have one show it break in google search you see that yes we're we're using your thumbs on that one don't know okay and uh the one after that or the one before that's at 10 20 21 a.m on 616 utah gun law registration you see that yes and is that the time in which you were searching that while speaking with tara lynn on speaker yes and so one minute later utah short break-in uh you were doing other searches while speaking with tara lynn on speaker yes and can you read the one right above it one dead one hospitalized in latent [03:38:54] Speaker 3: shooting abc4 utah which means it was local news and what was the time difference between utah [03:39:01] Speaker 2: shoyt break-in number 212 and number 211 what's the time difference about 20 seconds uh 10 21 51 10 21 42. yeah if i told you that that was nine seconds would you have any reason to disagree with nine seconds did your utah shoyt break-in have anything to do with the killing of matt no did it have more to do of just searching on the web yes is that very similar to the very next one nine seconds later one dead one hospitalized in latent shooting local news yes exhibit 44 we don't need to pull it up but exhibit 44 is the picture of matt laying down in front of the staircase yes uh how many times have you seen that picture 50 40. do you have a clear recollection in your mind the the status of matt's body layout when you [03:40:07] Speaker 3: first saw him after the shooting i know for sure i don't i can explain no when you went upstairs [03:40:17] Speaker 2: you talked to kate you came back down do you have a firm recollection of the shape of matt uh laying on the body no laying on the carpet no where do you come up with your best recollection of [03:40:31] Speaker 3: memory for matt's position when you saw him from the photo that i've been looking at today in the past [03:40:41] Speaker 1: weeks months year no further questions nothing further thank you may step in councilor can i see up here