MAGA Has Found Its New Favorite Culture War — The Next Level

[0:00] people are stupid about this and they are so morally obtuse drives me crazy i want to send [0:05] them all into the sun everyone this is jvl here with my best friends sarah longwell and tim miller [0:17] of the bulwark we're back together again for the first time in a month and i'm super happy because [0:22] i'm i'm in a great headspace today ah i love that the people want angry jvl that's great i'm still [0:29] feeling tanned rested i've got to go to dc this week so i'm sure that will suck the life out of [0:34] me but uh so this might be the last joy people get out of me i'll be here to suck the life right out [0:38] of you why do you always make it an ew what's wrong with you i don't think he had to do much heavy [0:47] lifting there did you guys do a next level i was going like what's it like when you get two of them [0:52] it's awesome that's what happens we all talk i mean it was fine it wasn't it wasn't it was fine [0:58] it was fine solid b b minus next next level shows without you tim that's right that feels right [1:04] maybe c plus i don't know i objected this characterization anyway it is great to be [1:10] with my best friends my real life best friends uh before we get into this sarah is coming to chicago [1:18] it's gonna be her and the axe man david axelrod the september 17th go to thebulwark.com [1:24] events to get your tickets if you want i believe there are still some tickets for 92nd street why [1:31] because we're in the big big room trying to sell out the balcony too they moved us so uh come to [1:38] 92nd street why on september 8th and uh no tickets left for the show that sarah and i already sold out [1:45] in seattle sorry that was 800 people for the seattle show it's sold out in san francisco too so if [1:51] you're in new york or in chicago uh or kenyan college where i'm gonna do a special one uh come [1:58] check it out there's still some tickets for those because they just went on sale also if you're in [2:04] georgia or north kakalaki stay tuned we've got something coming very soon or south or further south [2:11] points south somewhere down in there i don't know in the confederacy it's all the same to me gonna be in [2:18] the confederacy baby past delaware all of us all the same all right normally i tell people a little [2:25] roadmap i say oh it's got a big big show but this is gonna be a weird show today i i don't know how [2:30] this happened but there's just a bunch of oddball stuff happening and we're gonna we're gonna work [2:35] our way through it together as a family beginning with the fact that todd blanche was uh confirmed [2:41] as attorney general of the united states last week and was sworn in yesterday bill cassidy had this to [2:48] say about why he was casting the deciding vote choice is not between perfection and mr blanche [2:54] that is between mr blanche and another acting attorney general who may not run the department [2:59] effectively under president trump and who indeed may not be as good as mr blanche this puts at risk the [3:09] progress made fighting violent crime human and drug trafficking and fraud and this does not serve [3:16] the american people well this is not a referendum on president trump it is a decision [3:21] regarding mr blanche in very specific circumstances all considered i will vote for mr blanche i'll be [3:29] criticized for this vote what's new you need some water but people can be assured that i worked hard [3:47] to understand the issue oh my god can we stop this i can't do it anymore my blood pressure is skyrocketing [3:52] don't leave it on let it go this motherfucker why do they even let him take the ball gag off [3:59] honestly the whole rationale i spent a lot of time um because we did this live for susan glassford on [4:07] friday and i spent a lot of time focusing on the line about how people are going to criticize me they [4:12] always will so i don't have to do the right thing ever because it doesn't matter because i'm a baby and [4:16] people criticize me and that hurts my feelings i spent a lot of time on that so i want to go to the other [4:20] rationale that he provides which is that the choice is between todd blanche and an imaginary [4:26] worse person that's he sets up a strong man and he's like you guys you guys know the president right [4:33] he's awful i've once voted to ban him from ever becoming president again and then i voted for him [4:39] to become president but but we all know you and me those of us who follow the news those of us on [4:45] capitol hill we know he's terrible we know who else he's through i remember when he threw mac [4:50] gates up there i mean it's like you never know what this guy is going to do so if i don't vote [4:55] for blanche who has been the point man for an assault on the rule of law and you know helped run [5:03] cover for one of the most notorious sex criminals in the country probably the most notorious sex [5:07] criminal in the country uh and gone after trump's foes based on silly things like seashell posts like [5:12] if i don't vote for him you know who knows what trump could do i don't know john jr could be could be [5:17] the it could be the attorney jaw and it couldn't be june bureau she'd be better than blanche actually [5:21] uh do you have a box of wine what's that could be barren it could be barren and so i have to vote [5:28] for him my my hands are tied the president's so terrible that i have to give him his awful person [5:33] because the other person might be worse i hope people remember me in history i'm bill cassidy [5:39] question um doesn't that logic apply to literally every single trump nominee if the standard [5:48] is some person could be worse than this person then you have to vote for whoever the nominee is [5:54] i'm not sure it technically applies to pete eggs i mean you're really you're really digging deep to [6:00] find somebody worse than a weekend talk show co-host to run the military but uh yeah besides that yeah [6:06] i think that this is i don't i'm trying to think about this as like jvl's law things could always be [6:11] worse and this is where and right so sure uh i guess but here's what really grinds my gears about [6:20] cassidy and blanche this was one of the few things i was on vacation last week it's one of the i i had [6:25] taken most things off my phone i was trying to be light with the twitters but i was a little bit on [6:32] i had some bated breath around what cassidy might do and i i tweeted something like stand for something [6:38] man like you've got one chance at redemption here after your rfk vote uh like stand up and do something [6:45] and i had one eye on whether or not he would get confirmed and when it seemed like he was going to [6:50] go to the senate floor and do it i actually thought there was a chance that he might do the right thing [6:55] i know now i had been saying all the time i was sure republicans were going to confirm blanche [7:00] but at the end it's like that part of me kicks in that that part that hopes uh that part that thinks [7:05] maybe that he was going to the senate floor it is not just what he said when you watch him there [7:11] he is doing something where he gets like choked up almost like those long pauses seem to be him and [7:18] you you could either impute into those pauses the idea that what he is saying is i recognize that what [7:24] i'm about to do is going to condemn my soul to hell for eternity i'm selling my soul for no good reason [7:32] or is he overwhelmed by the histrionics of him standing in the breach as he sees it fighting for [7:42] the least bad option and i am convinced not even not because of this speech but because he went on [7:47] television the next day and he was on with margaret brennan on abc and she said you know sir your voice [7:53] seemed to crack and he goes into this thing about how you know i always watch these senators making these [7:59] big decisions and this was me bill cassidy on the senate floor faced with a big tough decision and [8:06] you know and i just i did what i what i thought was right and i was a little overwhelmed and moved [8:11] by the moment and i gotta tell you guys my tv did not survive this i could not have been more enraged [8:18] at the way that this guy clearly like this is a this is a delusion great history he has told himself a [8:25] story in which he is the hero of what we are witnessing because people criticize him and the [8:31] critics aren't in the arena because they can't see that he went to he went to john cornyn and he used [8:37] him as a as a person as a sounding board and the yolo caucus of tillis and cornyn and and cassidy they [8:45] all got together and they said we are are serious people who are not the fact that donald trump ran us [8:51] out on a rail is the most corrupt person in history the fact that we've never stood up to him [8:56] we're not going to use our last best chance to do it in fact no the noble thing to do is to give him [9:00] what he wants one last time after flexing like we might not i hope bill cassidy lives with the [9:07] psychological torture when he gets out and he realizes he's not surrounded by these other toadies [9:12] and he realizes what he's done and in fact already today unfortunately he'll be in baton ridge [9:16] that most people probably maybe but you know what he's already watching rfk once again donald trump [9:21] an executive order banning vaccines it's like this guy never learns he's like susan collins i i can't [9:27] wish enough um ill no i just i don't want it to be but i i think that he should he should live with [9:36] his cowardice and shame forever so i uh i'm going to swerve here a little bit i'm glad he voted for [9:44] blanche one of the things that we said about trump 1.0 was that uh maybe it was bad that the grown-ups [9:52] in the room took all the dangerous off of trump's desk and maybe the american people should have to [9:59] live with the consequences of their actions and so yeah make todd blanchard why not the only my only [10:06] note is that what i wish the senator had done is roll in there in shorts flip-flops and a hoodie [10:20] maybe with a bottle of zima or something and say you know what sure i'm gonna vote for this guy you [10:26] know why because you people asked for it this is what america wants elections have consequences you [10:34] want todd blanch is your attorney general here you go america i'm out and then just chugged it and turned [10:41] and walked out that's all that's all i really wanted i could have been slow clap for that i was gonna say [10:47] i it was one of the was the worst speech on the senate floor of the 21st century and then i started [10:52] to sit with that for a second does anything else come to mind and then immediately i was reminded [10:57] i reminded myself well josh holly and ted cruz both gave speeches in favor of the insurrection [11:04] after the insurrection like josh holly went in after running from his own people who were coming to kill [11:13] mike pence he went back to the senate floor and was like you know saying those people had some good [11:17] points storm in the capital had some great points maybe they should have lynched me i don't know how [11:22] can i say and we need to cancel the votes of the people of pennsylvania so i do think that josh [11:26] holly probably has the worst speech on the senate floor of the i don't know there's always mitch [11:30] mcconnell saying uh that the law was there to take care of donald trump uh it was not their their role [11:37] did you see um the people at the justice department uh clapping can we put this in and post the video [11:45] it's important to see the video what you can't see in this video is unfortunately is that blanche [11:49] is walking into the building underneath the kim jong-un banner of donald trump at the department [11:55] of justice so that's what's happening outside okay and then he walks in and he looks really bad [12:01] like i had some somebody texted me who was in the room was like he looks like he just got back from [12:05] tijuana so i don't know what happened to him then i had maybe he did a bender after he got [12:09] what does that mean i don't just like it just means like he looked like he had a party big party [12:15] i assume he did it i don't i mean it's like he did a lot of coke got an std and like came home yeah [12:19] who knows what it was but he walks in and then the people are sitting there clapping for him and it's [12:26] like there's not it looks like the old miss walk of champions 1961 in there i mean it just it doesn't [12:33] look like a you know we'll get into some of the oversteps of book one later in the show but like [12:41] there yeah i don't know at the department of justice in a multicultural diversity i just think [12:45] of diverse society the department of justice should at least at some level kind of reflect the country [12:50] and it's like a little concerning that a person who has been put in there as trump's personal [12:54] attorney to go after his foes is getting cheered on by like a bunch by just only whites tim there is [13:01] balance here though because yes the staff and the prosecutors are all white but they won't go [13:08] after any white defendants so it evens out it's true at least the trump supporting one forgot jim [13:14] comey they'll make they'll do some car belts yeah it's ugly i don't know i think i think they've got [13:19] something up that says only black women for mortgage fraud that's all we do all right and now a word from [13:25] our sponsor hymns if weight loss has felt like a losing battle this summer can be different skip the [13:31] guesswork and try weight loss by hymns access an affordable range of fda approved glp1 medications [13:38] including the wagovi pill and the wagovi pen plus the support to actually stick with it with wagovi at [13:46] hymns lose up to 20 percent of 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hymns.com slash the next level to get [14:43] a personalized affordable plan that gets you that's h-i-m-s dot com slash the next level hymns dot com slash the next level [14:53] weight loss by hymns is not available in all 50 states wagovi is the registered trademark of novo nordisk [14:58] as to get started and learn more including important safety information wagovi clinical study [15:02] information and restrictions visit hymns.com that's so professional that's really good so [15:10] honestly if things go south in the newsletter business that could be a future for you they are [15:15] they're going south right now should we have this for the people the reason i'm in a mood is because [15:22] i wrote a freaking banger of a triad today best thing i've read in months i was so excited about [15:28] it and i loved it bupkis i subscribed twice the hollywood hogan comparison to trump because you [15:36] know what i like is when jvl does his wrestling is life okay click go to the bulwark.com and subscribe [15:43] to my damn newsletter or i'm just gonna shout at this show all the time okay tucker carlson he's been [15:50] making some moves on the street lately uh yesterday he released his interview with hunter biden hunter [15:57] had some wonderful things to say about candace owens i haven't seen you in 11 years though i've [16:03] talked about you yeah you know in the meantime um and then i wake up one morning and you're doing [16:11] candace owens i love candace i do i do too yeah i do too i've taken a lot of abuse for saying that but [16:18] i do i know her and i and i do i think she's a great as a person yeah forget the the politics and [16:25] yeah no person is the problem anything and and largely why i'm i'm sitting here we've known each [16:30] other for you know quite tangentially for 30 years yes is that she is a human being is a really really [16:40] good person and i don't think so and thoughtful heart of gold and uh generous very thoughtful and [16:49] uh has a deep faith and um and i just vehemently disagree with some of her positions i mean she's [16:58] a compulsive liar which i got you know is right there in the commandments i'm not i'm not that much [17:03] of an expert these days but like she keeps saying erica kirk engaged in a huge conspiracy to kill [17:11] charlie kirk that is what candace owens does all the time but it's just it's just a weird quirk of [17:16] her personality i mean like the whole thing is discussed like her whole show is disgusting her [17:19] whole show is lies so it's like okay it's not her politics and i i disagree with her politics also [17:25] but like if you're gonna rank the problems with candace owens it's like her personal comportment [17:29] politics does kind of come second doesn't it yeah right the lying and the smears it's like oh she [17:35] was nice to me it's like great just because someone's nice to you doesn't mean they're nice [17:38] this is so this is something that trump gets wrong that hunter seems to be struggling with does anybody [17:43] else find it unsettling to see joe biden's younger iteration like sitting across from tucker carlson [17:52] uh waxing happily about both his relationship with tucker and his relationship with candace owens [18:02] i thought you wanted democrats to uh embrace new media and be willing to go anywhere and talk to [18:09] anybody and we need our own joe rogan and we got to talk you know got to be not just all politics [18:15] gotta be dead on in the culture be able to talk to especially young men and it just feels to me like [18:20] hunter's doing everything we've always asked and now that we see it we're horrified by it [18:25] no no no no no no no and and also what is what is hunter biden what is what is he to the democratic [18:31] party other than this like specter that hovers over the discourse uh here to remind everybody about how [18:40] angry we are at hunter biden and i'm sorry but at joe biden uh i'm the the a narcissistic family that [18:48] made a bunch of terrible decisions that led to donald trump is now on what a media tour to tell [18:53] you how great erica kirk and candace owens and tucker carlson is get out of here is he running [19:00] for something is he doing something is he helping democratic politicians in any way this seems to be [19:06] very helpful to himself for what it's worth also i've invited hunter on i'll just say that bluntly [19:10] we've gone multiple different ways to invite him on he did every other show um he attacks me when [19:15] he goes on other podcasts so he's got he is aware and he's got things to say he won't do it i think [19:19] that's pretty telling that he feels like he can get a safer hearing at the tucker carlson network [19:26] than he can get at the bulwark he's like whatever um i think that tells you a lot um about tucker [19:31] or excuse me about hunter and um you know look number one democrats should go on non-political shows [19:40] that that people who have mixed views some conservative views listen to like the case [19:46] for going on to a joe rogan or theo vaughn or some mma podcast or a sports podcast is that you're [19:51] reaching younger men who have a mix of views who are right now hearing only from republicans [19:58] and it would be valuable for whoever it your favorite democrat is to go on there and say actually [20:03] guys like no we're the ones that haven't got you into any wars i know you went for trump because you [20:08] thought he was the anti-war candidate but bush got into two trump's now gotten to one and we haven't [20:12] done any so like that's a good message to help get through or whatever whatever it is like that's [20:16] just one example like that's valuable to reach people who aren't being hurt i think that it's [20:21] increasingly less valuable to go on to right-wing political propaganda shows but if you are going to [20:27] go on them then it's incumbent upon you to to criticize to to offer pushback to them not to be like [20:33] what gavin did at the beginning with charlie kirk rip when it was like charlie my kid really loves [20:39] you like did that help gavin or did that help charlie to me it felt like it helps charlie because [20:43] it yes you know and in this case it's like this hunter going on tucker help the democrats or does [20:47] it help hunter and to me it seems like it helps hunter and tucker so you could go on tucker i'd be [20:52] open to somebody going on if medi hassan wanted to go on tucker i would say great go do it fight with [20:57] tucker maybe you can win win some people over or some democratic politician who's really feisty and good at that [21:03] i'd be open to that um this is not it okay i think that democrats should be able to go on fox news [21:10] but just going on fox does not mean that you have done a good job going on fox you can be [21:16] john fetterman going on fox to go punch at democrats and and endear yourself to a right-wing insane [21:23] audience or you can be pete budigieg who goes on argues and perhaps persuades some casual viewers [21:30] there who are just like brett bear watchers or whatever that he's actually a nice young man with [21:35] some interesting ideas those are two different democrats going on fox doing two very different [21:40] things or third you can go on as a person who validates so you could be a dsa person who is not [21:47] good at going on television who comes on and the right uses you to be like see see how insane these guys [21:55] are those are three different models of going on fox news they are not all created equal i think i had [22:01] a second point that was really good though that was good why don't you think on that while we hear [22:06] from tucker again talking about hunter's laptop you left a couple of laptops in a laptop repair store [22:14] in greenville delaware which i'm a town i'm very familiar with so and the guy was blind then i interviewed [22:19] the guy who seemed to totally believe the story john mcissaick i mean he seemed to be telling the truth [22:23] but the story did not make sense meanwhile i'm getting we get approached by israelis connected [22:31] to benjamin nanyahu like i know that yeah who are shopping this stuff to me at fox news yeah yeah [22:38] and i'm like i don't think that that part of the story the laptop is real i thought that from day one [22:45] but the way that it entered the bloodstream exactly american media was not all right we know who had the [22:51] laptop okay it's not a mystery whether it was whether it was the actual laptop whether it was a copy of [22:57] the laptop it was rudy giuliani who was working with russian operatives who were anti-ukraine that [23:06] tied to the whole ukraine call and the first to be like this all like we know what happened like like [23:13] we don't know exactly what happened like we don't know actually whether hunter was fucked up and went to [23:18] this uh blind guy's store or whether they brought you know whatever some operatives some rudy giuliani [23:26] slash russian operatives went to the store and brought the fake laptop there like okay so like [23:31] there's that part we don't know but we know what happened like it was not the massad okay like there's [23:35] been plenty of things to criticize israel for i've done that a lot lately uh it was not the massad [23:41] like we know what happened tucker doesn't want to blame russia because tucker is pro-russia now [23:47] and who knows maybe making money from russia they have the best gross the best grocery stores [23:51] so many products and their bread have you seen their bread and so and it's important to his [23:56] brand growing audience to blame israel for everything and so like again if you're hunter [24:01] and you're going on the show it's important in that moment to be like actually no it was not the [24:05] massad it was rudy giuliani and the russian agents that did it that he was working with or the [24:10] anti-ukraine forces within the pro-russia forces within ukraine whatever however you want to say it [24:17] um like that's what happened so i i get what you're trying to say but i have counterpoint [24:22] because i think you may be reading too much into what into what tucker is suggesting um and so i [24:27] sarah i want to show you some pieces of merch on his on his store here's a here's a hat um not [24:34] our war here's a neocons are gay for israel so i mean you know there's nothing going on here right [24:45] i i don't know if we're ready to be at this part yet but tucker also in here he's laid out a 10-point [24:52] plan he's laid out a 10-point plan for his vision for america and he's obviously started to float [24:58] tucker 2028 tucker has decided that he can potentially build a coalition out of the bottom [25:05] of the horseshoe and the glue at the bottom is going to be how much people hate israel um now in this [25:15] moment when many of us are very frustrated with israel's behavior as well as the united states's [25:22] behavior uh in concert with israel right you've got more takers than usual for this and i think [25:31] tim i was thinking about your piece remember when you wrote a piece um i can't remember which year it [25:35] was but it was like so you want to have a third party do you remember this piece yeah one of the [25:40] things that you argued in that piece that i really agreed with and stuck with me is this idea that if [25:45] you are going to build a third party coalition you have to start from the right and work left [25:51] you can't start from the left and work right and i think tucker understands this and if you go through [25:58] his 10-point plan which i have in front of me and i am i'm i'm happy to start right just to be clear [26:03] like the cultural right this is important and this is where tucker understands that he gets it just to [26:06] be really precise so you cannot start from tax cuts and strong military like it has to be cultural [26:11] right and then you build on and this is where you get you get like anti-woke uh anti-trans anti-gay i [26:18] mean that's where one of the hats like it's just like we're getting you're you're gay for israel [26:22] right he loves to he loves to to hammer on gay people can't you win ryan grim with that pitch [26:29] well this i think i think yes i mean personally but that crowd for sure his listeners listeners for [26:34] sure so you start with the anti-woke right to tim's point and then you go sort of anti-israel [26:39] populist economics uh and pretty soon you've built a coalition that is uh it's anti-war um [26:49] and and i think tucker also wants to do and this is in his break with trump is about also making it sort [26:54] of anti-elite um and the which is why he will hit on the corruption of donald trump i didn't watch the [27:01] whole hunter interview did he get into the biden crime family a little bit did did did what did hunter say [27:07] about that hunter hunter's answer was decently good on that again benefits family um i don't [27:12] know if it's anything the democratic party but he was talking about how you know his dad was probably [27:17] the poorest ever to leave the presidency and he never had any stocks in 50 years and like look [27:21] at what's happening with trump and looks what's happening with all the corruption around stocks [27:24] that was basically so tucker's got this 10-point plan and let me just i'll just say it's it's his his [27:29] each tenant has a word next to it words like fair sovereign productive beautiful healthy honest [27:36] optimistic wise decent and united okay all of those are the words i'll just i'll pick them uh a few out [27:43] here so healthy carlson embraces rfk's uh food agenda he uh called for universal sobriety and said [27:52] widespread use of drugs such as xanax adderall and ssris have left america half adult that is like a plank in [27:58] his platform so clearly very important to him he says that beautiful carlson alleges that urban [28:03] planners deliberately uglified american cities and portrayed brutalist architecture graffiti [28:08] public drug use and violent crime as deliberate attacks on the public decent the u.s should apologize [28:13] and pay restitution for killing non-combatants reverse trump's department of war rebrand and stop [28:18] funding allies that commit what carlson calls genocide citing israel carlson calls for halting immigration [28:23] until the effects of ai become clear ending benefits for undocumented immigrants and making [28:27] english the sole language of the federal documents and ballots okay there's a whole bunch of other [28:31] stuff in here we're going to rebuild farming uh go after corrupt uh the you know fair is the same [28:37] rules should apply to presidents federal agents and elites such as jeffrey epstein whose impunity [28:41] carlson cast as emblematic of an epstein class enriching itself through a corrupt system [28:45] you read this and i look at it and i'm like hunter biden sitting down with tucker carlson is a like [28:52] red pilled bonanza of a coalition it is meant to attract these young men it is meant and it's [29:00] to tucker though not to the democrats no no no no no that's a tucker's third party tucker 2028 third [29:05] party and this is where i think tucker becomes he's he learned something very important from trump [29:10] which is that he is not trying to build a 51 coalition he's trying to build a 20 percent [29:16] coalition this is what rfk did right you build a big enough coalition that they got to give you [29:22] something you're important you've got leverage and that is what tucker is trying to do and honestly [29:28] i think there's uh stuff at play here serious question if tucker throws universal health coverage [29:36] yeah on this pile i think if tucker's doing it a lot of the people on the america first right [29:44] are down with it and between that and hostility to israel i don't know that seems like a pretty [29:51] big chunk of the left like the far left right i mean again like the breaking points people can get [29:57] and this is why it's important i'm sorry to keep coming back to this and this is why it's important [30:00] if you're going to show to remind people of all drawing people on the left and if the question that [30:05] you're getting of all the things that he has said and done that do not appeal to them right all the [30:09] things that would turn them off because that's all they're getting in their feeds you know they're [30:13] just curing trump talk or excuse me tucker freudian slip uh talk about anti-israel stuff and epstein [30:20] stuff so they're hearing stuff they agree with like if you listen to a tucker show like if you go watch [30:24] the show of tucker and his brother which i would recommend people do if they if there's any listener who at [30:29] all finds themselves intrigued by what tucker is offering please go watch the show of him and his brother [30:34] because it's insane like they're insane like they do all kinds of racist sexist homophobic [30:38] offensive stuff crazy stuff all of it like they do all of it but people aren't seeing that [30:43] except for the people he wants to see at the core kind of base that wants that's that message so i [30:48] agree and here's the other thing that i think that he could get out of it sarah which might not even be [30:51] anything for himself but like right now he's in some ways playing a psychological game with trump [30:59] on the on the trump marco rubio future on this future thing basically which is tucker even if [31:04] tucker doesn't like maybe all he gets is saying like you're gonna hand down the torch to either jd [31:10] or to a kid that likes me because otherwise i'm coming for you and like if you try to do this marco [31:17] thing i'll you know if i can blow up the hostage right like whatever um i do think that that's barely [31:23] implicit at this point like message that he's and this was always trump's play was they all knew [31:29] trump could walk with a dedicated 30 of the republican party and if he could do that it [31:36] meant he was unbeatable in a primary and they had to give it to him his threatening to have a third [31:42] party and that is exactly what tucker's doing he's like now i'm gonna have my own third party [31:45] it's gonna give me all the leverage for you guys to take me seriously and whatever comes next [31:49] so sarah tim and i talked about this a little bit while you were gone i just want to get your view on [31:55] the question of could tucker win the republican nomination we discussed this on secret and so if [32:02] people want to i'm going to keep my view secret and if people want to see it they can subscribe [32:06] on the secret podcast well you can subscribe to the secret podcast to listen to that but sarah [32:11] what do you think about whether or not he could win a republican nomination is he a plausible winner of [32:16] the republican nomination should he decide to run yeah i wouldn't rule it out i need people for one [32:23] second to put down their pre-existing sense of the political parties and understand how deep the [32:32] tectonic plates are shifting in real time as they have been for a while in terms of a political [32:39] recalibration among the parties in terms of what they stand for and we are getting to a place where [32:45] we are less think about it as the republican and democratic parties you know and think about [32:49] it as a top of the horseshoe and a bottom of the horseshoe coalition in which he could probably win [32:56] the republican party as a totally anti-corporatist populist uh anti-israel anti-war anti-woke like [33:06] person uh and i don't think that it's i don't and again doing what trump did which is working from a [33:12] small lever and then wedging himself into a place where like he's the only option i would posit to you guys [33:19] that one of the advantages that the republican party has is that in their coalition there are [33:26] basically two distinct groups which are ride or die for issues or ideas that are not really intention [33:36] and so the normie class just wants to have somebody who is super anti-woke super anti-dei super they [33:47] just want somebody who hates libs and the the true believers out on mtg world want somebody who is [33:55] going to be like really committed to america first stuff you can deliver to each of those people and [34:02] the other thing for them is not a deal breaker right they have one one thing they're single issue [34:09] parts of the coalition i don't think the democrats have single issue except maybe for the very very far [34:15] left where uh like anti-israel stuff is single issue there are there are people in the democratic [34:23] coalition for whom anti-israel is their single issue like everything else is like some big [34:29] negotiation and well i don't know you can't just lock people down uh tucker would struggle on in areas [34:35] like so one of the one of his his 10 things in here and actually jv i wanted to ask you about this [34:41] because this seems like the kind of thing you and tucker might have had in common under optimistic [34:45] carlson argued that having children is a biological imperative and the foundation of long-term thinking [34:51] while blaming aging and childish elites for policies that disregard future generations this is like the [34:57] trad stuff kind of coming in he is a pretty hard weirdo so i do think that like on that stuff no i think [35:05] he could win a republican nomination i do not think tucker i i mean i'm sorry i need to be so careful [35:10] about this because we all thought this about trump but where trump codes as a moderate on a bunch of [35:17] things like abortion like this is what people forget people think of another stuff though just on [35:22] different stuff like what i mean more foreign policy i guess yeah but the country has moved [35:28] in that direction but jbl said something i think that it's important which is like if you threw [35:32] universal health care in there because i got to tell you this is something i'm going to talk about [35:36] a lot on my book tour i think some kind of universal health care coverage with a border that is much [35:43] more restricted is going to be part of a new grand bargain that a lot of people are going to go for [35:48] i i just i think that the idea of i think healthcare has gotten too difficult and expensive for people [35:53] impossible to navigate i think that obamacare for as much as it helped certain people made it untenable [36:00] for others uh costs keep going up for business like i just think you are going to get a lot more buy-in [36:06] remember in the 2020 democratic primary where all they did was fight over the particulars of this i [36:13] don't think you're going to get that this time around i think everybody's going to have some [36:16] version of a public option um they'll still find a way to fight about it and you know what i'm going [36:19] to do while they're doing that um i'm going to be turning to our friends at seoul uh lately i've been [36:25] more mindful about what i want to do when socializing um you know it's people over on friday just kids [36:32] hanging out enjoying the summer you know you got a pod this week where in the past might have been a [36:39] bottle of wine maybe instead you turn to a soul out of office beverage or soul out of office gummy [36:44] soul's a wellness brand that makes delicious hemp drive cbd and thc products designed to make feeling [36:49] good simple their mood gummies have precise dosing clean ingredients so you can choose how you want [36:54] to feel while staying in control if you're looking for a bright social energizing buzz go with the [36:58] uplift it's time to wind down the mellow gummies over three milligrams of indica thc ideal for cozy [37:04] nights and fully unplugging and if you're just looking for that just right anytime vibe souls balance [37:09] gummies offer you an easy versatile feel perfect i don't know maybe while you're listening to the [37:14] next level podcast make today a good day and get yourself some soul gummies right now soul [37:19] is offering our audience 30 off your entire order go to get soul.com and use the code the next [37:24] level that's get soul.com promo code the next level for 30 off today is primary day in wisconsin [37:32] and we expect assemblywoman francesca hong to wind up as the democratic nominee for governor nobody [37:39] rooting harder for her than abdul el sayed because she will be his human shield throughout the throughout [37:45] the next 12 weeks of of campaigning all anybody talks about with her is the thanksgiving thing i think [37:52] that is uh unfortunate because she is more than just a silly thing about uh wanting to do away thanks [38:00] with thanksgiving which she no longer agrees with and which isn't going to happen anyway but it is [38:06] synecdoche for basically everybody's nervousness about the dsa let's run a little quick clip on this [38:14] and then sarah i want you to talk to us about your focus groups on her in 2021 um where you said americans [38:21] should cancel thanksgiving should have done this in 16 21. uh the post has been deleted republicans [38:27] have been highlighting it do you still believe that uh thanksgiving should be cancelled i'm a chef [38:36] and one of the first meals that i made uh that was um for the community when i was 16 was a thanksgiving [38:44] meal you know i always think my hospitality background in owning a restaurant for seven eight [38:50] years that bringing folks around the table uh to share conversation and build community is always [38:55] a good thing but thanksgiving is also a time that's incredibly painful for many people in our communities [39:02] and so i think there i wanted to make sure that people understood that there are multiple views but [39:09] views can evolve and the position that i'm running for right now and i think my background as a chef will [39:15] actually help me become a better governor that's able to bring more people to the table can i just [39:20] ask you just a very quickly thing because one of the one of the things that i note about her campaign [39:26] is that she talks about being a chef the way john edwards used to talk about being the son of a mill worker [39:32] over and over and over again and is that a thing that voters respond like because i've never seen this [39:38] in politics before uh like you know does telling people you're a chef translate yes chef yes yes i [39:46] guess that's what it is okay the bear is very popular and so is top chef and all the cooking shows [39:52] and being a chef is very cool it's a cool profession there's two points i want to make on on this wisconsin [39:59] race the first uh i'm gonna put a pin in but it's very important that we talk about the consequences of [40:05] her winning like what it actually means for wisconsin and its future um if the republican [40:10] wins there because actually the stakes are incredibly high in wisconsin and democrats are [40:14] freaking out about this uh for very good reason but before i get to that i do want to talk about [40:19] the focus groups because i have been asking voters in the focus groups democrats what they think about [40:25] democratic socialism what they think about the word socialism if they identify as democratic socialists [40:31] there was a marquette poll from july that found democratic socialists had a net unfavorability [40:36] rating of 30 points among registered wisconsin voters but something that i'm seeing in the groups [40:42] is that while voters in the groups democratic voters primary voters they don't identify themselves [40:47] as democratic socialists like they don't say yeah i'm a democratic socialist but they are not [40:51] hostile to the term and they're not hostile to the notion of socialism right and so um [40:58] in our most recent group so this is from uh late july in wisconsin no one said they identified as [41:04] democratic socialists themselves but only one out of nine voters said they viewed democratic socialism [41:10] negatively i'm gonna read you two quotes uh adam said when somebody says the phrase democratic [41:15] socialism i think of wielding the power of the government for the working class people [41:19] and i'm like don't threaten me with a good time henry said i think a lot of it's just political [41:26] jargon that's thrown around to scare people and i don't think it means a lot at the end of the day [41:31] these are all people running on the democratic ticket and i'm seeing that in lots of groups right [41:35] now this is a label that gets hurled by republicans at democrats and they've been calling them that for [41:42] so long that they're like who cares they're just gonna say this stuff and what they hear is universal [41:48] health care what they hear is taking on power structures of elites they're sort of pro that um and i think in [41:55] some cases that's manifesting better better candidates than others hong here is one of the [42:00] worst candidates at a time when um to lose the governorship of wisconsin is to put into peril uh [42:10] both redistricting in wisconsin where they will do a full texas redrawing of the maps it will reverse [42:17] a bunch of progress that ben wickler had been making in wisconsin they finally got rid of the super [42:23] majority of republicans in wisconsin now they just have a majority you think a backlash to this [42:29] in wisconsin won't be uh won't put them potentially back in the super majority and in terms of overseeing [42:35] the 2028 election we're talking about one of the most perilous swing states and tiffany's awful and [42:39] he and he's a big election denying lunatic who's probably gonna win against her and uh and it's real [42:45] people should be freaking out about it yeah i don't know if he's probably doing it or not you know who [42:48] the hell knows i'm bad at predictions i know this this is insane compare and and just going back to [42:53] for a couple of reasons that are really not ideological for me because i i just think that [42:58] this person seems like patently like not the type of person that you would want to trust with a job like [43:05] this and you know you go back to platner one of the things that i said about platner a lot which i was [43:09] wrong about actually but like you can just see how my thinking is on this and how it's consistent is that [43:14] i was like if plat i said this if planner was running for governor of my state like i wouldn't [43:19] even consider him like it would be an absurd choice because of all his red flags and it's like this is [43:24] a real this is a serious job he wasn't he's running for senate and it was like critical that the [43:28] democrats have a majority in the senate and it's still it so there really is maybe some people don't [43:33] draw that line like i do i think that there's a meaningful difference between being the governor of [43:37] a state and being in the senate or in the house and in this case this person's running for governor [43:42] and like like him like her life is kind of a disaster i mean like this is it's like not really [43:46] any judgment on this person she might be a really nice person but like she has mental health issues [43:50] that she's talked about she says she's a chef doesn't talk about the fact that her ramen store [43:54] like went under she did the ramen store with her husband like they're divorced and like now she's [44:01] running and she's running away from comments that she was making not like 20 years ago or 10 years ago [44:07] like three years ago six months ago she voted was one of six people to vote against this bill there's [44:14] like an anti-grooming bill in wisconsin where there's like a teacher who was grooming a 13 year [44:20] old man a girl but like she but he didn't actually like cross any of the illegal lines you know it was [44:27] just that it was just very very creepy and so trying to have a bill to create some rules around this she [44:32] doesn't want six people to oppose that like that feels like that you're going to see a lot of that [44:37] in the television ads this fall like i'm just saying this honestly like about about ideology [44:42] like if you look at zoran in new york you look at brandon johnson as the mayor of chicago they [44:48] essentially have the same ideology zoran's doing a great job so far maybe that will end someday [44:53] brandon johnson's a disaster like he smells like a disaster looks like a disaster is a disaster chicago's [44:58] a disaster look at the house like aoc and cory bush or jamal bowman like they were in the same crew [45:05] they're in the same ideology like aoc seems totally like smart rational thoughtful like ideologically [45:12] left jamal bowman and cory bush were disasters they lost primaries because they're disasters they're [45:17] lying like pulling the fire alarm corrupt lobbying stuff right so like with it or if we're not going to [45:23] do this uh with the left like look at more of an establishment candidate like eric swalwell so it's [45:29] like eric swalwell is running for governor of california like he's a disaster i could then it looked [45:33] like he was more than a disaster but his personal life was obviously a disaster and so it's like why [45:37] would we want this person to be governor isn't there somebody else like who could fit that you just [45:42] have to be able to make these calls and i think a lot of people are blinded by their ideological views [45:47] and i don't know in this case i think it's crazy and the last thing i'll just say about this [45:50] i understand you saying hey the democrats need to shake things up and try something really different [45:56] the establishment strategy didn't work trump won twice that's fine i'll listen to that critique you're [46:02] right like komala's campaign didn't work maybe the left populist thing would work better i'm open to that [46:07] the democrats keep winning in wisconsin tony ever evers won twice ben wickler as you mentioned is the [46:15] establishment guy keeps winning like things in wisconsin as far as i can tell are going great [46:20] or fine at least and so like if you're a democratic voter in wisconsin why you would vote in and say [46:24] you know what i'm gonna go with this person that is like a huge risk because we need to really shake [46:30] up the system in wisconsin i i did anyway i just can't relate to that i find that insane that's where [46:35] i'm at the polling suggests that she's running away with it right i know and she is i feel deeply out of [46:40] touch with the people that are going to vote for this yeah it isn't like she is locked into something or [46:44] there was some disaster that's like led like democratic voters in wisconsin are choosing this [46:49] overwhelmingly and with open eyes i do want to wait i want to wait until this is because i'll say [46:55] everybody was like uh abdul sayed's running away with it and can i just i i was out on vacation and [47:02] i didn't get my like sarah you were mostly right on this when i said guys they like hailey stevens a lot [47:09] more than you all think they did like she was much closer and he was and he did the internal polling [47:15] which i actually think was kind of scummy like they were releasing uh internal polls and people [47:21] were saying that the that there were these people on twitter saying like oh the the pollsters called [47:26] me and said that there's no path for stevens like it's not even possible to try to sort of tamp [47:31] down enthusiasm for her what he came in it was like a point difference uh ultimately so uh i think [47:37] it's just gonna be closer than maybe what it seems like or i hope and i guess i'll just say maybe [47:41] she'll win and she'll be fine i don't i don't know i'm just like it's just like the stakes of this are [47:46] very very high well i'll tell you republicans have spent 3.6 million dollars in pack money to elevate [47:51] her so they certainly are really excited to run against her this is the thing when people say like [47:55] well you gotta experiment and you gotta you know be willing to make mistakes uh that sounds really good [48:02] except that nobody ever says also sometimes experiments blow up and they hurt you and they're painful [48:07] right you i mean can we try the experiment in oregon like why are we trying it in wisconsin like [48:12] this is something i've been saying for a while why don't the democratic socialists nominate somebody [48:17] in arkansas the establishment democrats haven't won there maybe you could try that and win in a state [48:21] where democrats have failed to win before like doing this wisconsin i just it's lunacy to me all right [48:27] sarah you got a word for us some say that august is the sunday of summer where we're all trying to [48:33] hit reset before the autumn rush and i'm beating my summer sunday scaries by upgrading my wardrobe [48:39] with quince quince specializes in effortless high quality essentials like ultra soft organic cotton [48:45] and premium mongolian cashmere sweaters they're beautifully tailored built to last and transition [48:51] seamlessly from morning meetings to dinner which is good because i like to go straight from my morning [48:56] meetings to dinner my straight friends banned me from wearing skinny jeans which was too bad because that [49:03] was all i owned and they were the ones who made me get them in the first place 15 years ago so i [49:07] picked up some great wide leg pants from quince and some linen pants that are perfect for beating the [49:12] summer heat i'm in quince all the time now skinny jeans are officially back right now sarah decided [49:19] that she's doing a lot wide-legged pants and that begins the process back towards skinny jeans [49:24] well that's good because i don't throw any of them out quince also has premium stretch denim starting at [49:29] just 50 they probably have skinny jeans too with the kind of perfect fit structure and weight you'd [49:33] expect from a luxury designer brand everything at quince is priced 50 to 80 percent less than similar [49:39] brands they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen so you're paying for [49:44] quality not brand markup upgrade your every day download the quince app for app exclusive offers or go [49:51] to quince.com slash the next level get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in [49:57] canada and the uk too that is q u i n c e dot com slash the next level and by the way i'll just say [50:04] people come in to my house all the time and i see them in their stuff and i'm like you're wearing quince [50:07] aren't you and they're like yeah how'd you know and i'm like they're our sponsor please use our code [50:12] use our code it helps us and they're like okay okay i will all right we got to use some uh use some of [50:17] our time on some hot w nba talk but before we do that on sunday aoc was on abc's this week and asked [50:26] about francesca hong and this is what she said my understanding is that um is is that francesca hong [50:34] has made clear her present stances to her yeah she's moved away from right she's moved away from [50:40] it and i have a local city councilman that has this uh uh saying woke one was crazy [50:49] so woke one was crazy i mean we all did some things it was uh you know it is what it is and [50:55] you got to look back and say glad we all came out of that thing okay is this is this good is this [51:02] bad maddie glacius did not like this one bit okay i i think that some acknowledgement that there was [51:07] some overstepping is good um it's funny actually i laughed i chuckled um you know she's obviously [51:14] charming and deaf she is so charming yeah i find her very compelling yeah same i it leaves me wanting a [51:20] little though and here's the reason why and i think that part of the reason why maddie is and [51:26] some of the others get upset about this is they're like i was right and i want you to tell me i was [51:32] right and you know i feel this way okay i feel this way and i used to be like this i used to be like [51:36] this i have a lot of flaws still okay so i'm not like you know give i'm not sainting myself but [51:41] i'm just saying that like part of my yoga and therapy work was just like get over the fact that i [51:45] that some people were wrong and i was right about things so that is not the reason why it upsets me [51:50] it makes me at least be wanting because it's like you know what guys that you turned off a lot of [51:57] potential voters during this period with this stuff people dismissed it and mocked us when you brought [52:02] it up and i was getting emails mocking like i i remember like one moment for this was really [52:07] memorable it's like when toulouse is starting to go to school at that time we're still living in [52:10] oakland and i'm going to interview at new schools and like the amount of woke insanity that they [52:15] were that they were giving me during these school tours was just like i mean and so in the grand [52:20] scheme of things was that as big of a deal as the insurrection or the end of the rule of law like of [52:25] course not like for me like none of that like made me like you know start buzzing my hair and doing the [52:31] nazi tattoo but like i understand why people were annoyed by it and it was it was broad based it was [52:37] happened a lot of places a lot of people were turned off it hurt the democrats and i think that it's [52:43] important for the democrats that participated in this to go into those communities in red parts [52:48] of the country ex-urban parts of the country and be like hey guys you had one you had one we overstepped [52:55] we overstepped we like cops actually we made a mistake um you know so that would be fine tim [53:03] except that i assume that at some point in the future some republicans are going to look up and say [53:10] man that mass deportation thing that got out of hand that escalated quickly uh and uh and you know [53:18] we shouldn't do that again i don't think anybody is ever going to say to them you deported 2 000 [53:24] people a day you actually ruined people's lives you ruined the entire economy of the town of [53:30] springfield ohio you you had american citizens killed and shot on the streets and that is a different [53:38] category of annoyance than like oh the hr lady at my school was insufferable and their kids are out [53:44] of school for no reason they were at home for absolutely no reason is that still worse than [53:48] 2 000 people being arrested every day and shipped off to gulags this is what i'm saying these things [53:53] are not equal i'm just saying that like it was bad say to them we up my this is the jvl and i fought [53:59] about this for the bulk of this era and i just really disagreed and also i think some of it too is [54:05] there's like a moral question and a political question i recognize that you are correct on [54:10] the political question okay and that's why we don't disagree people are stupid about this [54:16] and they are so morally obtuse it drives me crazy i want to send them all into the sun [54:21] i would need to more need some more details about what to determine whether or not i disagree with [54:24] that because ross dolphin writing about woke like it was his own private vietnam the point is that [54:31] part of that is also beating them and i don't know if aoc wants to be president or if there are [54:36] people out there who want aoc to be president i just think that she's going to have to do better [54:41] as far as winning people over than being like woke one is crazy it's fine it's a good first step but [54:46] like eventually you're gonna have to go in and make a case to people in the states that democrats [54:50] haven't won for 20 years about why she wants to make their lives better nothing anybody does because [54:56] that never be enough for those people sarah you'd want to talk about the wnba what's going on because [55:01] i watch zero percent professional basketball i love that that's a great start the jvl acknowledged [55:07] that he does not watch the wnba so he doesn't have a take i just want everyone to model that if you [55:12] don't watch the wnba i don't want to hear your take about it i wasn't sure if we were going to get [55:17] into this or not i just i said to the producers i was like does tim said anything about what's happening [55:21] in the wnba because when i was on vacation i was on vacation with my friends and it may not shock you guys [55:25] to know that a lot of my friends are lesbians and how many season ticket holders were in your friend [55:32] group on this trip that all all they were all they were all in valkyrie's gear and and so i learned a [55:39] lot on this uh on this trip and i have been for whatever reason i wasn't a soccer player but i do [55:45] have season tickets to the spirit here in dc love going to spirit games really fun um i don't get to [55:51] mystics games though and i but the the w as it is uh referred to among my people uh is is has been [56:00] having on this upward trajectory obviously propelled by caitlin clark's prize and you will now find on [56:08] every major sports uh talkers among men they are deeply invested in what is going on in the wnba [56:16] for a hot minute it was about basketball it's no longer about basketball it is now entirely the w is [56:23] now where culture war goes to tear us apart as humans and athletes and americans okay [56:36] so but tim have you been following what's going on oh yeah okay on the fever which is the indiana [56:42] team that caitlin clark plays for there is another player sophie cunningham yeah sorry sophie cunningham [56:49] recently uh also white which is pretty important here because accusations of reverse racism are [56:55] pretty much what it is underscoring most of us but well there's sort of there's a couple components to [56:59] why this has become uh the ground zero for the culture wars one is race one is gender and one is [57:05] sexuality um slash trans it's got all of them it's got all of them right now because when caitlin clark [57:13] was a rookie and she had such she was so famous when she got the first season she's getting fouled [57:19] a lot and also like there was the storyline of like caitlin clark was the good guy and angel reese [57:25] was the bad guy from tim's beloved lsu uh but that became sort of a racial uh it had all these racial [57:32] elements but then as uh so then they both go into the w uh caitlin clark starts getting like her ass [57:37] kind of handed to her a little bit in terms of fouls because they're they're showing the the new [57:41] famous rookie they're they're welcoming her with with some tough love but it kind of starts to get [57:46] out of hand like it all like it becomes partly because the scrutiny and here's here's the overall [57:52] thing i want to say the w was not quite ready to be at the center of every cultural battle all at once [58:01] it wasn't prepared for it they're not prepared for it as basketball players not prepared for it [58:06] as a league they're not prepared for it politically and the level of imagine desperately toiling to [58:13] take this league from something that anyone pays attention to no one does you don't get paid you're [58:19] playing overseas in the off season and then all of a sudden everybody knows who you are sports [58:27] center talks about you all the time my people i know who have never watched a basketball game men [58:34] women or kids or anything in their entire lives are suddenly coming up to me being like did you see [58:39] what they did to caitlin clark did you did you see the clip because it has become polarized along [58:44] political lines sophie cunningham sorry to bring it back she came out with a statement saying men do not [58:51] belong in women's sports but she also she did this thing about um like predators in the locker room [58:57] she makes it sound like anybody who is trans is like a locker room predator uh which is happening [59:04] in the wnba like in the w no no there are no trans women there's no trans women in the wnba [59:10] okay how about where did sophie go to college did she have trans players on her team in college [59:16] where did sophie go to college i forget that's a good question actually i don't know the answer to [59:19] it um she was missouri caitlin clark part of the reason that caitlin clark is not just that she's [59:24] white she's also purportedly straight which is not not not unheard of but not typical [59:35] right and so she becomes the champion fox news now loves sophie cunningham they are talking about [59:41] sophie cunningham she also straight yes and blonde and hot this is kind of important weirdly jvl chuck [59:49] clausterman was on bill simmons podcast and said that i think sophie cunningham is going to be the vice [59:53] president someday riley gaines hardest hit they're doing stuff together it has become so it has become [59:58] political and caitlin clark who really is just there to ball like really is just there to play [1:00:04] is like dragged into all of the politics being like you must can you must be a champion for trans [1:00:10] people you must condemn trans people and caitlin clark just kind of keeps being like i would just [1:00:15] like to play basketball and would please like everybody to just like chill out and everybody's like [1:00:20] no you must become the avatar for my political ambitions how do sophie's teammates enjoy her [1:00:26] seems like her coach didn't really defend her that's one of the other controversies [1:00:31] all characters in this in this soup now now i have just a few quick things i want to say about [1:00:36] this i'm sorry i spent all that time setting it up number one 90 of the people who have takes on all [1:00:41] of this stuff do not care about women's sports you know it's funny jesse waters actually is maybe the [1:00:46] only person who just told the truth and he's like you know what i don't care about any of this and [1:00:49] i'm you can't make me yeah he was like every time i come in here i look at the rundown and you guys [1:00:54] have wnba on here i'm like what are we doing and it's like okay it's the only time i'll compliment [1:00:58] jesse waters because that's a consistent point of view that everyone should take but his point is [1:01:02] also his he's not saying why are we talking about these uh why are we he's saying when sports are [1:01:08] stupid why would we talk about them yeah that's consistent i mean it's it's right it's whatever i mean [1:01:12] it's loathsome it's a bad opinion but it's a consistent opinion i would rather somebody be [1:01:17] like women's sports is stupid i don't care about it than somebody like women sorts of stupid i make [1:01:22] fun of the wnba all the time nobody goes they're all lesbos uh and also why are people being so [1:01:28] unfair to kaitlyn kark well that's that's it that's the shit that bugs me the part of the bad faith [1:01:33] like then all the people who for so long were like why would why would anybody watch women's sports [1:01:39] are not suddenly now i must defend women's sports at all costs because it aligns with [1:01:44] politic my political persuasion and whatever and that's why everybody is taking positions on this [1:01:49] and it is deeply annoying although it is kind of an opportunity for the wnba if they could handle [1:01:53] this right unfortunately again they were not ready for prime time on this i want to give everybody [1:01:57] with a family member a friend who has a take on this it's annoying them a little just a little easy [1:02:02] shorthand this is like me helping you as a listener in your in your conversations at home anytime this [1:02:08] comes up and somebody offers a stupid opinion about how kaitlyn clark has fouled too much or trans [1:02:13] people in the wnba or sophie cunningham or how wnba doesn't appreciate kaitlyn clark i'd say to them [1:02:19] do you know who olivia miles is can you tell me what team she's on and if the answer to that question [1:02:25] is no then your answer should be you literally have no idea who what you're talking about because you [1:02:30] don't know who the wimby is of the wnba like i didn't just pick a random player like olivia miles [1:02:35] miles is this amazing story like if people actually cared about the sport she gets she's [1:02:40] a rookie this year the minnesota lynx are in first place right now she's that she is their star player [1:02:44] she's their leading scorer she was picked second because paige buechers now we're getting into like [1:02:50] kind of bravo stuff like this page buechers who's on dallas was dating another girl named like ozzy and so [1:02:57] dallas drafted who's also great but like dallas drafted page's girlfriend number one passed on olivia [1:03:04] miles number two wendy who is yeah i mean she's not like tall like i just mean like she is the [1:03:10] the generational player right now and caitlyn maybe it can be her again but she's now been in the league [1:03:14] and the fever or like in third or fourth place right now i didn't look this morning but like [1:03:18] the links are winning the links are in first place on the back of olivia miles and so it's like if [1:03:22] anybody actually cared about the league like this story is amazing it has everything it has like a new [1:03:27] rookie who's come taking the lead by storm she was drafted second so there's like a snub angle and uh the [1:03:33] reason yeah the reason why she's drafted second because there's like some dating drama at the [1:03:37] beginning like we got a little real housewives it's like a great story it's like if you're a big [1:03:42] basketball fan or a little like this is a great story like literally 98 of the people who talk about [1:03:47] this don't know the name olivia miles and like you could you could make up a name and they would not [1:03:51] know who's in the nba wmba they only know caitlyn clark and now sophie cunningham and so my just is [1:03:57] like i don't you don't need to you don't need to listen to the opinion or consider the continue the [1:04:01] conversation with somebody if they can't if they can't engage with you on a little olivia miles [1:04:06] banter that would be my take and watch the lynx game so well my my overall take is about the trans [1:04:12] issue um because this is common for the w in a big way part of what's happening is everybody's talking [1:04:17] past each other on this sophie cunningham is making it about like men in women's sports which is of course [1:04:26] uh that's sort of a republican framing uh and then there's but then there's also then there's [1:04:32] like coaches and other people who are who are wearing t-shirts and say like you know trans kids [1:04:35] belong whatever and everybody's having sort of like a people are locking into their positions without [1:04:42] having what i think is a serious and genuine thoughtful good faith conversation about what is a [1:04:47] what is going to happen because i i while in the beginning of our discussion we flagged that this is [1:04:54] currently not a real issue in the sense that um there are not transgender players currently playing [1:05:00] in the nba or wnba but i don't know if you've seen this but a couple of former nba players yeah ennis [1:05:09] canter uh was one of them and royce white who is a piece of work piece of also ran for [1:05:14] office as a republican of minnesota has a whole rap sheet as a stunt they have they are saying that they [1:05:20] identify as transgender as women uh and they're gonna they're gonna be in the wnba they're gonna [1:05:25] go in and try to try out um and of course for anybody who pays 30 seconds of attention to that [1:05:33] they'll be like this is them pointing out the absurdity and to be clear actually the wnba's [1:05:39] charter or whatever their rules are really does say anybody who identifies as a woman is eligible and [1:05:46] they're gonna have to change that i think like people there's the the the way that this is gonna [1:05:51] be resolved is going to be with a lot of compassion and a lot of specificity because there is a huge [1:05:59] difference and somebody people on twitter were like you guys at the bulwark are all wrong about trans [1:06:03] issues and i was like what is my opinion on trans issues i thought it was interesting that someone [1:06:09] seemed to know exactly what i thought because i i took great pains uh in my book to address uh how i [1:06:16] thought about the trans issue politically in terms of sports in terms of other things [1:06:20] um but i just it is going to i think live at the center now of the wnba and i think that there's [1:06:26] going to be a lot more what we're seeing in the stunt but i actually think they're going to have to [1:06:31] grapple with this in a real way as more transgender athletes that transitioned in in their younger years [1:06:38] come up and as more people who maybe try to say all right i was a male college basketball player now [1:06:43] i'm going to transition to a woman and maybe try to play which is what happened uh with the swimmer [1:06:49] leah thomas um so they're going to have to confront these issues because every time they do it's going [1:06:54] to become an enormous cultural flashpoint and i think the thing that we can trust republicans to be [1:07:00] thoughtful and you know and do stuff like this to help people think these things through in a [1:07:05] compassionate and empathic manner i think that kids prepubescent kids everybody should leave them [1:07:13] alone they could sports at that age is about learning how to show up it's about learning [1:07:20] skills it's about learning how to be on a team it should be available and open to absolutely everybody [1:07:26] uh and the using little kids like this is just a way to attack trans people and it's disgusting [1:07:32] and people shouldn't do it on the other hand in the the issue of leah thomas i do not think that [1:07:38] should be allowed to happen i don't think that somebody who is was just swimming on the men's team [1:07:43] should be able to transition and then swim on a women's team and this is there was one of the [1:07:47] coaches i saw her trying to do a version of this where she kept being like i don't know about the [1:07:53] science really to answer this but what she was grasping for what she's groping for is to say really [1:08:01] what's happening is that if you transition before puberty right and you don't go through puberty it is [1:08:09] different than if you do fully go through puberty and then transition those are sort of different [1:08:14] things and it's really complicated like it's complicated and these are decisions that involve [1:08:19] doctors and people and parents and i think that like our cultures the way we're having this [1:08:26] conversation right now lacks both compassion and any depth um and i think that once you get into both [1:08:35] like college and professional where it is about it is a profession and there is money on the line [1:08:42] those conversations have to be a little different i guess it's also not really a problem in the wmb and [1:08:47] it's fine if they have to do with this because of bad actors that are with it like that's like [1:08:51] it's not like that there's a real case but they will they will those of us who are worried about gay [1:08:57] marriage were worried about like polygamy and polygamy just never showed up maybe this doesn't ever show [1:09:02] up in the wnba like as a genuine thing and it's only ever a troll it is not going to ever be super [1:09:09] common like this is not i i think that it is it is wildly overblown relative to its actual impact [1:09:17] on the culture it really does pin politicians down in a tough place because while the majority of [1:09:25] americans believe in protections for trans people and i believe that people should have the freedom to [1:09:29] transition as adults they do not necessarily feel that way about kids and that may not matter [1:09:35] because it may that may be between children and their parents and a doctor but the science is still [1:09:40] coming together that and it's okay this is part of my it's okay to say you're not sure [1:09:44] it's okay right now to say you're not precisely sure as this coach was sort of trying to do [1:09:49] uh but to say like but we are going to come at this with honesty and fairness and compassion [1:09:55] um but also like trying to figure out what's most fair for everybody and ns cantor is a douche [1:10:00] yeah what an amazing amazing show uh guys is good good to see my jbl puts us below c plus i came [1:10:09] back you would have thought the jbl would have been giving us an a but no this was a build back [1:10:12] up you got to build this was a solid solid c what are you talking about c is average look [1:10:20] average by definition some of the shows we do will be average that's true this isn't some woke [1:10:26] lib class where everybody gets a dolphin yeah we have real stuff i thought we did solid b plus work [1:10:34] we'll see what the people think grade us in the comments good show long show hit in the comments [1:10:39] hit like hit subscribe we'll be back soon good luck america