CBS Fires Scott Pelley from 60 Minutes (w/ Max Tani)

[0:00] Semaphore mug. All right. We're live, folks. It's Max Tani. It's me, Sam Stein. Scott Pelley was just [0:07] fired. Max, thank you for leaving your dinner. I don't know who you were eating with or if it was [0:14] even a good meal. Max left his dinner to jump in an Uber to get on this for us. And in exchange, [0:21] I'm allowing him to drink from his semaphore mug. I appreciate that, Sam. Thank you so much. [0:25] I was actually, I was at a media dinner talking about the future of media at a really great [0:32] restaurant in New York when this news broke. And of course, I was already on my phone texting with [0:39] a lot of people and reading some of the reactions and talking to folks and you beckoned. And so [0:45] well, I wouldn't want to talk about toxic workplace environments at media companies with anyone else [0:52] than someone who has been with me at a couple of those. But we're going to get into that in a [0:57] bit. First, the news, Scott Pelley, revered CBS anchor and correspondent for 60 News was fired [1:03] tonight by the newly minted, I should say, executive producer of the program, Nick Bilton. So the lengthy [1:12] firing letter, I don't know if we can put it up. There it is. I'm not going to read all of it. [1:17] A lot of throat clearing up top about how Bilton wants to have a productive relationship and come [1:21] into the program, bring new ideas, meet people, have one-on-one conversations. And then it references [1:28] what happened yesterday, which was Pelley went on a absolute heater, I think is the best way to [1:34] describe it, during an all-staff meeting, ripped Nick Bilton a new one, said Barry Weiss, who's the [1:39] head of CBS News, basically wants to kill 60 Minutes. And then they just, you know, people were saying, [1:46] Barry Weiss's deputy was telling Scott Pelley he was being rude. Scott Pelley said that person was being [1:51] rude and Barry Ross was being rude. Anyways, long short of it is, they tried to patch it up today, [1:55] didn't go well. And then this afternoon, Nick Bilton sends this, or this evening, Nick Bilton [2:00] sends this letter to Pelley and says, your antipathy to the future of the show has come [2:04] through loud and clear, and I've heard you. I therefore write on behalf of CBS News Inc. [2:09] to inform you that your employment with CBS is terminated for cause, and I think that's going [2:13] to be important, effective immediately enclosed is your formal termination letter. We don't get the [2:19] closure in this, but Max, I'm not surprised that it came to this. Are you? [2:23] No, I'm not. It seemed like it was headed in this direction, you know, at least over the last [2:30] 24 hours. I don't think the folks at CBS, the new regime, thought it was going in this direction. [2:37] When I was talking to people over there in the new leadership cohort last week about the future, [2:44] some of these correspondents like Pelley, like Leslie Stahl, like Bill Whitaker, [2:48] there was a lot of optimism. At least that was the future line that some of these folks [2:53] would return, and clearly on Monday, Pelley disrupted that by saying that the new network [2:59] editor-in-chief, Barry Weiss, was murdering 60 Minutes and generally questioning the credentials [3:07] of Nick Bilton, questioning the credentials of Barry Weiss, Nick Bilton being, yeah, the new [3:13] executive producer of CBS. It was a remarkable, remarkable set of remarks, and clearly Nick and [3:21] the new leadership at CBS didn't think it was going well. They ended the meeting after like 15 [3:26] minutes. I think they thought it was going to go a very different way, and it didn't. [3:31] Yeah. I don't know how you can anticipate the meeting's going to go that way. [3:35] Actually, you know what? Let me test that way. Have you been in a newsroom meeting that's that [3:40] bad? Have you been in a newsroom meeting? We talked about this today. I've been in bad [3:43] newsrooms, bad newsroom meetings, but not that bad. Nothing like that. No way. No way. [3:48] Yeah. But okay, let's test run this though. Was it that crazy to think it would go that way? [3:57] Right? I mean, let me put it this way. Were you surprised that Pelley did this? [4:00] I mean, look, I think that Pelley's outward persona to a lot of people who might consume [4:10] 60 Minutes or who are familiar with his 30-year career at the network would think this is not [4:16] necessarily the most animated individual in broadcast news. He's not your Don Lemon or your [4:24] Tucker Carlson or any of these types of folks. I guess neither of those guys are in network news [4:28] either anymore or in cable news, but he was on, you know, Pelley was on 60 Minutes in the evening [4:35] news known for being really straight and narrow down the middle. So I think in that regard- [4:39] Always holding his glasses, kind of chewing on them, you know, in a classic- [4:42] Well, in some ways, in some ways he was, you know, dismissed from, or it didn't work in one of the [4:48] previous iterations of his career because he was kind of considered to be a bit boring. [4:52] So I think in that way, this was a bit of a surprise, but they shouldn't have been surprised [4:58] by the overall morale within the network and the tone from a lot of the longtime staffers, [5:03] which is frustration, anger, and disbelief that they're being layered by people who, [5:08] you know, don't have experience in network news, not to mention the ideology and the- [5:14] Was there anything Pelley said in that initial meeting that was, like, factually unfair? [5:22] They don't have experience. [5:25] No. [5:26] Barry Weiss does- I mean, I guess you can interpret whether Barry Weiss is trying to murder 60 Minutes. [5:30] That's probably just an opinion, right? [5:31] Yeah. [5:32] But she doesn't have experience. Nick doesn't have experience. They have gutted 60 Minutes, [5:38] right? All that's fair. I guess it's an interpretation of whether, you know, Barry's trying to, [5:44] you know, do something new with the program in hopes of saving it, or if she's just trying [5:48] to do a political project with the program. [5:49] And whether they care about it. I think one of the comments that Nick Bilton made was that [5:55] he cared a lot about the institution, and Scott Pelley said, you know, oh, please, or something [6:00] like that. And so I think that that's something that I'm sure Nick Bilton would say, of course, [6:06] that he cared about something like this. I spoke to him last week when he was hired, you know, [6:11] said all the things that you say when you're a new media executive coming into it. [6:13] He was remarkably on point, right? [6:16] He, that's what somebody said. I didn't make that comment. [6:19] I mean, he told me- [6:20] You didn't make it? [6:20] No, I did not make that comment. That was made by one of our, one of my esteemed peers [6:24] in the media reporting business. I, you know, I thought it was quite remarkable that he said [6:29] that he wasn't intimidated by taking the job at CBS News. He said, you know, he said, [6:35] it's not the slightest bit intimidating. I told him in the interview, this doesn't come up in [6:40] the text, but I said, I would personally would be intimidated. You know, I, I have also written [6:45] columns and newsletters, uh, and, uh, nobody's hiring me yet to be the head of the, uh, program [6:52] that's watched by 9 million people, uh, every week. Hey, they have open- [6:57] Unka Dream. [6:58] They have some openings to fill now. Actually, now that you mentioned it, who's going to fill [7:02] this job? Like that, that's the thing. It's like, who the hell now takes this job and who can they get? [7:08] Well, look, there are, and I've been talking to people at CBS. There are a lot of people [7:13] within the network who would love to be on 60 minutes. It is watched by the largest audience [7:19] for, uh, broadcast news, uh, in the country. Uh, it's putting up numbers that most programs, [7:26] uh, still, uh, don't get at least in the news category. It's a big, yeah. So there are a lot [7:31] of people who haven't. Yeah. There's a, there's a lot of people who would love to be on right [7:35] after Sunday night football. That's right. I guess the other way to think about that is what [7:39] kind of person are they going to be looking for? I mean, you're, you're right. They, they can hire [7:42] tons of people. It's the question of what kind of person they would, they would want to hire at [7:48] this point. Certainly. I think I know the direction that you're going with this, uh, too. I'm just, [7:51] I want to know what you think. You're playing it very straight, my man. I'm not. Hey, look, [7:56] I'm playing it straight. No, I mean, of course I want the unvarnished max. I, the unvarnished of the [8:02] unvarnished take, this is, this is, did you not have any drinks at this dinner? I had a, I had a, [8:08] I had a glass of sparkling wine or maybe two, uh, but, uh, it was pretty good. Um, but no, no, [8:14] no, but, but, but, but to answer your question, seriously, there is the question of how much [8:20] ideology, uh, you know, political ideology goes into this. And this was, there was a discussion I [8:25] was having with another media executive today where we were discussing, you know, if there have been [8:30] some reports out there that, uh, that, that Paramount is not happy, uh, with Barry Weiss and [8:36] how she's in her stewardship, uh, uh, of CBS news, uh, which in some ways I think are actually like [8:42] kind of unfair to Barry. What did you expect? You're hiring someone who has edited a, you know, [8:47] a successful, but a, a sub stack to run, uh, a major television news broadcast with hundreds and [8:53] hundreds of more, uh, people, non-ideological too. Like, this is a very, very difficult, uh, this is a [8:59] very difficult thing. And so when I was talking to this media executive, we were having the [9:03] conversation of, well, it's going to go, you'll, it's going to go one of two ways. Cause it depends [9:07] on what, uh, what David Ellison, uh, you know, and other investors want, do they want something [9:12] that is going to make money and continue to, you know, operate as a business, continue to operate [9:18] as a business, uh, similar to what they had been doing before, or do they care more about ideology [9:24] and inserting ideology into, uh, the news part? Is this an ideological project or is this a [9:29] business project for the moment? And I think this was answered. You think so? Cause I want [9:34] to give people a sense of, I want to give people a sense of the scope of the business we're talking [9:38] about. Okay. And I'll have the numbers right in front of me. We referenced them on an earlier, [9:41] uh, broadcast. I think 60 minutes made something like $260 million in ad revenue in like Q1, [9:50] I think, I don't know, something crazy. It's unbelievable. Someone's going to have to fact [9:55] check me on that. I, whoever's in the, who's ever, sorry, $206 million total in 2024. Okay. [10:01] So I was not Q1, I was a little bit off, but $206 million for one, for one show. This is a behemoth, [10:10] you know, that's still going to be there. There's still going to be audience. It's coming in after [10:13] football. It's going to be there, but like, you know, that's not something you really want to [10:18] fuck with, honestly. It's harder to make the pitch to advertisers too. [10:23] Right. So who they replace Pelley with, let's put up, actually put up the picture of the [10:29] correspondence. Cause it's not just Pelley. Okay. You have Vargas on the left, you have Whitaker [10:34] and Stahl in the middle. I don't know if they stick around after this. There's a huge open question. [10:39] I reported in my story with built-in last week. Oh, that's not Vargas on the left. Sorry. That's, [10:44] that's, um, what's her face? That's a Cheryl on the left. Vargas and Anderson Cooper on the right. [10:49] Both of them are gone. Kelly is now gone. You have Stahl and Whitaker right there. Uh, who, [10:55] and there's an open question about that. Yeah. Uh, I mean, we reported in our story on Thursday, [11:01] I reported in my story on Thursday, uh, that Leslie Stahl has been on year to year contracts. [11:05] She's 84. She's been on year to year contracts with CBS, uh, for a long time. I know it's amazing. [11:10] Uh, she's been on year to year contracts. So, and as far as I know, uh, at least recently, [11:15] uh, she hadn't re-upped that, uh, that deal. So it, it'll be interesting to see, uh, she could walk [11:20] without any sort of consequences. They can't force her to stay. Uh, Bill Whitaker, it'll be all, [11:25] it'll also be a really interesting, uh, you know, question about him given, uh, as you mentioned, [11:29] all of the other folks are, are, are all gone. So yeah. So it's Sharon Alfonzi again. I butchered the [11:34] names and I'm an idiot. Sharon Alfonzi, we got Whitaker. Who's the second to the left guy. I should know [11:39] this. I should know it as well. I'm a little embarrassed to not. Uh, I feel like we're seven [11:43] out of eight or whatever. They're not six out of seven. It's not terrible. We're not doing so bad. [11:47] I know the viewers can let the viewers. It's John Wertham. John Wertham. Okay. Then you have [11:52] Whitaker, Stahl, Pelley. Then you have Cecilia Vega and Cooper. And out of those, I mean, you might be [11:58] left. I mean, is John Wertham going to be the last one? It's like, this could be a huge dramatic [12:05] overhaul. We haven't really seen any names floated, uh, about potential replacements. [12:10] Although I will say our old boy or old pal, Lachlan Cartwright had a name today. Uh, it was an [12:16] unconventional one. I hadn't seen this one floated ex New York times guy, Matthew Rosenberg. So [12:22] he's now in private equity or like hedge fund management or something. Nice guy, but caught up, [12:27] caught up in, uh, project Veritas, a project Veritas sting. Uh, so was I, so was I, I was, [12:35] were you, how did you respond to that? They just followed you around though? [12:38] No, they didn't, they actually didn't sting me. They, they, they did a sting of my journalism, [12:41] my Columbia journalism school professor. Oh my God. I remember that. To try to get me. [12:45] Yeah. Oh my God. That's crazy. But they didn't actually, they never got you. [12:49] Yeah. No, there's like, well, the journalism professor was like, yeah, Sam's a great reporter. [12:52] He likes to get sources drunk. And they're like, ah, we're getting, we're getting off, off, [12:58] off topic here. Um, so yeah, the future of 60 minutes, unknown questions. We'll see. I find, I, [13:04] I think you're right though. I think we ain't got an answer that this is a political and ideological [13:08] project and not a business one. Can we, can we like expand on that a little bit? Cause I do think [13:13] that there is, I think that there's something there. I, I think that the decision by, uh, [13:19] Barry Weiss and David Ellison, who talked to, uh, Nick Bilton about his hiring, uh, and the decision [13:26] to move forward, I think really said a lot about, uh, what direction that they want to take this. [13:31] Uh, I think that if they had been really concerned about the direction that Barry, uh, was going in [13:37] and, uh, they wanted to put someone, they wanted to change up 60 minutes, but put someone in charge [13:42] who, uh, you know, could, uh, be, uh, uh, could oversee, uh, this in kind of a steadier transition. [13:49] I don't think David Ellison would have signed off on Nick Bilton, right? Because he is, I don't think [13:54] that Nick is necessarily a controversial pick in terms of his ideas, but he is unconventional. [14:00] And like many of the leaders at the new CBS, like Barry, like Charles Farrell from the wall [14:04] street journal, like Adam Rubenstein, who was at New York times opinion with Barry, but these are [14:09] people who do not have traditional television broadcast experience. So what they're saying [14:13] with what they were saying when they hired Bilton, what they were saying by firing all of these, [14:17] uh, individuals is that, uh, they, this is the new CBS. They have an idea of what they want to do. [14:23] So ideologically, ideologically, that's fine. I can understand that, but like operationally [14:30] and just from like a user experience standpoint, what does that mean? Right. Cause you'd be like, [14:35] well, we're going to be like really much more aligned with like short form video, but like, [14:39] come on, make more TikToks. I guess that really, I mean, you've seen the stuff that, uh, you know, [14:44] Olivia Reingold has done, uh, for, for CBS, uh, and some of the other, uh, some of the other [14:49] younger folks from the free press have done product. Yes. That's just a different product. [14:55] I know. I look, I don't disagree with, uh, it's like turning the, it's like, it would be like [15:00] turning the New York times op-ed page into like a bunch of tweets. You mean like turning, you mean [15:05] like turning the Washington post op-ed page into a series of, uh, right-leaning short form videos. [15:11] Oh, wait, actually, that is the project. And it's gone. It's been a huge success. No, but in all [15:16] seriousness, the entire, for a brief time, yeah, for the wrong reasons. Yeah. But again, [15:23] the product is we do serious broadcast journalism. It's the one place you can get investigative [15:28] television journalism. And it's like, you know, we, we all talk about Mike Wallace and Rivera and [15:34] all that stuff, but like, that's real. And yeah, you know, that, you know, there are brand issues [15:39] here that you have to run into. You don't can't, not everything should, or can be turned into [15:43] vertical short form videos as much as like, I, you know, you know, as much as people are consuming [15:48] them, there is still an appetite for what they do, obviously. Look, I'll say this. I hope that [15:55] a lot of people are wrong. I hope that, I hope that they do continue to do the important work, [16:00] um, you know, that, that 60 minutes has done, uh, over, or, you know, over many, many years when it [16:05] comes to these, uh, short form magazine documentaries, Nick Bilton talking to me, uh, said that he touted his [16:12] experience as a documentarian. Look, I, I, I, we haven't seen what he's done yet. So it's hard [16:17] to judge, uh, what it's going to look like. All we can, uh, I'll jump off of his, uh, you know, [16:22] that some of the firing decisions they made and some of the management decisions, uh, in these early [16:26] days. So, uh, which points, look, I got you, I got you. 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Message [18:08] and data rates may apply. I mean, look how happy those people are with their pocket. Do you use [18:15] the pocket hose? Are you out there in the, in the yard with the pocket hose? Do I use the [18:19] pocket hose? Yeah. I use it all the time. Pocket hose is awesome. Really? Absolutely. [18:24] Tim, what did they make Tim do? Uh, Tim had the wallet commercials, right? Tim has a lot of [18:28] commercials. People love, people love Tim Hawk and their stuff, but pocket hose, I'm hoping [18:33] to become the face of the franchise. I love my pocket hose. Honestly, folks, if you're [18:37] gardening, get that pocket hose. I didn't realize, are you out there with the lawnmower? I didn't [18:41] realize that anyway. Yeah, man, I'm, I'm suburban and everything. All right. Thank you. I appreciate [18:45] it. Yeah. Where do you live, Sam? I'm not going to do that. Just kidding. That's not for this. [18:49] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's late. Scott Pelley. So Scott Pelley, uh, let's just, he put, he talked [18:54] to the times. Um, I don't know why he didn't answer your phone call. Um, I guess you're not as [18:58] important. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Well, you just took a little swipe in my pocket. He said, [19:04] uh, I've been in combat in Afghanistan. I have been in combat in Iraq. I've been in the war zone [19:08] in Ukraine multiple times, risking my life and the happiness of my family because of my devotion [19:13] to the broadcast. I think that's just sort of in reference to his love for 60 minutes. I'm not [19:17] really sure if he revealed much with that statement. So I don't think you, you miss much [19:20] there, uh, max, but like what comes next? Uh, someone was joking. Maybe it was Megan Kelly's [19:26] producer, uh, or something like that. Like Scott Pelley and Leslie Stahl are going to go start [19:30] like a sub stack and be on YouTube with their independent channel. And Barry Weiss is going [19:34] to be at legacy media. It's just like an inversion. It's true. And you know, that is a, that is [19:40] really true. But look, I mean, we can laugh at it all we want, but you people watching this [19:45] know because they are watching and, um, you know, we've seen it with folks like Don Lemon and [19:50] with Megan Kelly and with Piers Morgan and with Tucker Carlson. Uh, yeah. And with Terry [19:55] Moran with, uh, you know, with Jim Acosta, uh, there are, there is obviously life after, [20:00] uh, these, uh, you know, losing your job in cable or in broadcast. And in some ways, uh, [20:07] it can be advantageous and now you are unshackled and you are, you can be in front of as large [20:13] of an audience as, uh, maybe not as large on, you know, uh, uh, uh, immediate basis, but [20:18] the footprint, uh, is definitely still, is still quite big. Megan Kelly is as, um, is [20:25] as influential as she's ever been. Uh, Don Lemon, uh, certainly I think has more people [20:29] watching some of these videos, uh, than, you know, some of the worst days of the morning [20:33] show. He, uh, they moved him onto, uh, so I look, I wouldn't be surprised. I was talking [20:38] to someone, a CBS veteran, uh, today who was saying that, you know, they wouldn't be surprised [20:43] if they saw, you know, Peli and, and Bill Owens, the old executive producer, uh, team [20:48] up on something. Um, so that remains to be seen. It could, I certainly could see it happening. [20:53] I mean, they could obviously go independent and they'd be fine. Uh, like you're talking [20:57] about, I'm curious if there's like a package that could be thrown at them. Like, is there [21:01] a competitor who could be like, look, we could take some of like three big 60 minutes names, [21:06] piece it together and like start a comp, like an actual real competitor, or are we just beyond [21:11] something like that? I think it's, I think it's over. I mean, [21:14] I think that C I look, it's hard to tell how big 60 minutes actually is because they have [21:19] the last remaining great lead in, in television, which is NFL football on a Sunday night, which [21:25] is like, I mean, so people continue to watch right from football into 60 minutes. Uh, you [21:32] really cannot beat that. Uh, so I would be very curious what that program would look like [21:36] if it didn't have football right in front of it. Uh, you know, whether people would 9 million [21:40] people would be watching, I think we're past it. I don't think that any of the competitors, [21:45] uh, particularly because there are fewer of them, right? Like it's really just NBC and ABC and we [21:51] haven't seen them want to rock the boat with these things. They're not trying to invest more in [21:55] television. Oftentimes they're trying to invest less. No, I think that's 100% right. So then you end [21:59] up with some sort of new venture and independent venture like thing. And, and, but maybe he just [22:04] doesn't want to do this anymore. Right? Like, so he's 68. Yeah. He's been at 60 minutes since he's [22:09] been at 60 minutes since 2004. So that's 21 years, 22 years at the program. It's won 51 Emmys. It's [22:16] a record started at CBS news in 1989. I mean, at some point you're just like, I don't really know if I [22:24] want to do this anymore. Um, and maybe that's it. Maybe like he was just like, I'm at the end of my [22:29] career. I can, I can go down with my convictions and swinging and you know, I don't have to deal [22:35] with this. And I can understand that, honestly. I mean, I don't know if I would do it, but I can [22:39] understand that. Look, in some ways it is one of the great, uh, it it's up there with some of the [22:46] great departures. Yeah. I mean, this is kind of how they used to go out in some ways, maybe not [22:53] necessarily like this, but dramatic exits from television, uh, from broadcast television. This is [22:59] the thing that media reporters have been reporting on for, for decades and decades. It's a part of a [23:03] long tradition, uh, you know, of this type of thing. And, uh, you know, unfortunately I think [23:08] we see it, we see it more and more. It reminded me a little bit. It did remind me a little bit, [23:12] honestly, of the time that you and I met with Alex Thompson, uh, at a West wing playbook meeting, [23:18] and you were just done with my edits and you were like, Sam, go yourself. You're trying to murder [23:24] the product. I'm not going to deal with this anymore. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. [23:33] Absolutely. That's why I know a little backstory for folks. I, I, again, I did edit max for a little [23:37] while. Um, okay. So, uh, the other thing, and I'll let you go, honestly, I promise I'll let you go, [23:42] but this was also raised figure who raised it. Either it was Dylan buyers or, or, um, Lock and [23:47] Cartwright, but like 60 minutes right now, 60 minutes right now is, is, is on hiatus, but they use this time [23:54] period to like do reporting, right. And to come up with stories and to get things ready for the fall [24:00] when they come back on, because see, cause football comes back and that's the whole shebang and they're [24:05] going into their 59th season. And there's like actual questions or someone's raising, like, are they [24:11] going to have content? I mean, I think for season 59, they'll have content. It just won't, they'll have [24:17] content. It just won't be, uh, probably be like interviews as well produced, or they won't be able to do [24:22] that extra phone call or that extra, you know, shot on location somewhere. Uh, you know, they might [24:29] have to scramble a little bit more. I mean, look, in many ways they have the luxury of, uh, spending a [24:35] lot more time on these stories than I think you and I maybe have ever spent on any story. Uh, that's [24:40] part of the nice thing, uh, you know, of getting to start your stories for September, uh, in June. Um, [24:46] but, but certainly I think certainly we'll see a drop off, uh, in, you know, the, that extra effort [24:52] because this is nobody's doing any work right now. Uh, you know, I just want to put this out there [24:56] because I, I, uh, I, you know, haven't said it anywhere or haven't seen it reported. Um, but you [25:02] know, it was a really interesting scene today at six, uh, you know, around 6 PM, uh, after Scott Pelley [25:09] had this meeting that didn't go well, uh, you know, with Barry Weiss and everyone was trying to figure out [25:14] what to do. Uh, Barry, I'm told, uh, you know, Barry was, uh, you know, in, in an office, uh, [25:20] with Nick Bilton, uh, and with Tom Sebrowski, the other president of CBS news, trying to figure out [25:26] a way forward here. Meanwhile, um, you know, Pelley was in his office, uh, and, you know, [25:31] there were a lot of his producers and other folks kind of milling around also kind of just waiting to [25:36] see what, what was going to happen. Nobody's doing any work. Nobody's getting any of the stories done [25:41] for, uh, you know, for the next, uh, you know, uh, for, for the next season. So I think certainly [25:47] they'll be starting, uh, on a bit of a lag. Yeah. To say the least, no, they're going to, [25:52] I think JBL said, this is just going to have to rely on just interviews, right? Like they, [25:55] the one thing Barry has been very good at honestly is booking interviews, right? Totally. [25:58] BB and Trump and all that stuff. She can use her roll decks and they'll just do that. [26:02] They get different types of guests too. Um, they had Palmer lucky, uh, who I just wouldn't expect [26:08] to see, uh, on an older episode of 60 minutes. They'll definitely fill in it, fill it in with, [26:13] uh, you know, with some big name folks like that. But the question really is how do CBS, [26:19] is that what CBS viewers want? I mean, technically when you survey, uh, the viewers of broadcast [26:25] television and of television news, non-Fox television news in general, most of them tend to [26:30] admit tended to be, uh, voters for Joe Biden, uh, people who did not, you know, for Kamala Harris, [26:35] people who were not necessarily supportive, they're consumers of legacy media, right? [26:39] Yeah. So, [26:39] All right. Let's leave on this. Well, two things. One is predictions. Well, first, [26:44] no, we'll leave them on two things. First is the Megan Kelly tree. Cause I think she, [26:47] you know, got to hand it to her sometimes. She had a really funny one about this. [26:51] Dear Mr. Pelley, your fired effectively would have been far more impactful and less needy. [26:56] She's right. He didn't need to go through all that for throat clearing in the letter. [27:00] I got to hand it to Megan Kelly in that one. It would have been more effective. [27:02] Um, let's leave on this two years from now. Uh, no, let's make it three years from now. [27:10] Is 60 minutes still in there? It's a great question. It's such an amazing brand. I find [27:17] it hard to believe that they wouldn't have it on the air. I mean, it just, it is five years from now. [27:23] Yeah. I mean, look, time magazine, time magazine still exists. Newsweek still exists. Somehow, [27:29] you know, these, these brands are floating along long after anybody, uh, you know, uh, the, [27:35] the millions of people who used to, to be subscribers, um, and used to be purchasers of [27:41] the magazines when they were checking out at the grocery store. Um, these brands still exist. [27:45] I imagine CBS will, uh, it was 60 minutes will exist in some sort of form. I just don't think [27:50] it'll be, it'll have, it may not have the gravitas of previous generations. [27:56] All right. You were too, that was too easy. One crazy name or unexpected name for next CBS or 60 [28:05] minutes correspondent. I'm not going to say Sam Stein, cause I don't want to be too flip here. [28:09] Obviously, obviously I'm not going to be that. I mean, look, there are people who are out there [28:13] who work for CBS right now, uh, who are posting on Twitter, positive things about Nick Bilton. [28:21] You can name names. There's, uh, Jan Crawford, uh, who works for CBS has been posting some positive [28:28] stuff. Uh, people inside the network thinks that, you know, she wants to be, uh, you know, on there. [28:33] I look, you know, I don't, I, I mean, I don't know. I'm, I think it's a nasty business, Max. [28:38] It is a nasty business. It's not the nastiest thing that I've seen covering television news. [28:42] I'll tell you that. Uh, I mean, you know, there was, uh, Weisha Jang, the, uh, white house [28:48] correspondent, uh, for CBS news president of the white house correspondents association [28:52] congratulated Bilton when he got his job. I don't, maybe she didn't, you know, put it together, [28:56] uh, when he, when he tweeted that out. Um, so, you know, not really sure, but they're one thing [29:02] that I've been hearing from people at CBS today is that there are definitely some folks, uh, there, [29:07] I think there's resentment towards some folks who are waiting in the wings to snap up some of those [29:11] assignments, but we'll see those assignments be stepped up for sure. It's nasty business. [29:15] Look, if I would serve, if asked, I would say, yeah, I'm going to say you've, you know, [29:19] you're on MSNBC on some, look, I'm just going to read this weekend time slots. That would be a [29:25] better one. I'll say that. I'm actually, you're right. I'm contractually obligated. I can't, [29:28] I can't, I have a contract now, but I will just say this. The money's good. Two people familiar [29:34] with this is from variety. Two people familiar with the business of 60 CBS news suggested 60 minutes [29:39] correspondence can make as much as 5 million each year with less seasoned on their personnel earning less [29:44] while the executive producer earns about 2.5 million and the executive editor on 1 million. [29:49] Damn. They're all going to be making less than that. Sorry. But part of this is also there's [29:54] cost cutting. You know how this goes. There's cost cutting that goes along with getting rid of [29:57] some of these, uh, some of these older folks as well. I mean, not some of the folks like [30:01] Cecilia Vega, they're paying her contract out. She was not done. Okay. Sorry. I keep saying I'm [30:06] going to leave, I let you go, but I'm not going to let you go. Sorry. I did reference this up front. [30:10] And I said, we have to return to it because they fired Scott Pelley with cause. So I mean, [30:16] that to me suggests that there's going to be some legal stuff here. Like that, this, [30:22] he'll get me. I don't know if he's got a ground to stand on because he did throw a, [30:27] an absolute, like, I don't want to call it tantrum. He lopped some grenades in there, [30:30] but like, is this going to be like one of these things where it gets like a little, [30:34] you know, I haven't heard anything about that. I haven't heard anything about that yet. It just depends. [30:40] It depends on his appetite for it. Right. Like, is that what he wants to do? And like, [30:44] if he wants to spend money, uh, you know, believing that he was wrong. I, I think my guess is that he, [30:51] his defiance today, his defiance today, uh, in, in, in the meeting, I think showed that he did not, [30:57] this was not a thing that he said, he thought, Oh shit. Uh, I got to backpedal here, save my job. [31:02] Maybe no, he was, he, he, he was okay with the consequences. I think, [31:06] I think he knew the consequences and did it deliberately and felt like, you know what, [31:13] I'm going to go out the way I want to go out. Um, all right, brother, thank you for doing this guys. [31:19] This is, this is the sacrifices this man makes to appear for you. He left, uh, three Michelin star [31:27] restaurant where he eats. I think it's maybe it's a Michelin bib gourmand. It's the ones that you can [31:32] afford, I think. Oh, okay. Okay. He was drinking the finest bubbly. He told me only for you. And [31:38] then the Uber driver took a wrong turn and he was like, I can't make it. And like, it was a work, [31:45] it was a work dinner. Oh, sorry. Sorry. You told me it was a big fancy day. No, it was a nice place, [31:51] but it was a work dinner. You know, you know, you go, you got to go for work. Well, I was trying to [31:56] make you out to be a hero, but you're not even, you're so, you're so humble. It's unbelievable. [32:00] All right. Max Taney, media reporter and overall mensch, one of the best in the business from [32:06] Semaphore. Love you, buddy. Thank you for doing this. For everyone else who tuned in on a late [32:11] Tuesday night, Scott Pelley was fired. We knew it was coming, but big news in the industry, [32:17] kind of a seismic moment for broadcast journalism and we'll stay on top of it. So subscribe to the [32:21] Bulwark, subscribe to our YouTube feed where you get great content like this. Talk to you later.