Kathryn Restelli Caught in Contradictions on Cross — UT v. Kevin Ellis

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: At the time of our break yesterday, the state attended the witness to the defense, Mr. Williams. [00:00:05] Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Your Honor. Good morning, Catherine. Is it okay if I call you Kate? Sure. And do you commonly go by Kate? Yes. And Katie sometimes? Yes. The only reason I'm asking is because names have come up and talk and exhibits and throughout this trial references. And I used your name, Kate, in my opening. It's okay with you, all right? [00:00:41] Speaker 3: Yes, it is. [00:00:44] Speaker 1: Mr. Williams, why don't we swear her in again because it has been an overnight break. So you raise your right hand. Do you swear her under the laws of the state of Utah penalty of perjury that the testimony given this matter today will be true and correct? Yes. Mr. Williams, thank you. Thank you, Sarah. [00:01:00] Speaker 2: Now, we've never met, have we? [00:01:03] Speaker 3: No, we have not. [00:01:06] Speaker 2: You are aware that we, that I attempted, that I asked to have an interview with you through your lawyer, right? Yes. And you, right? [00:01:16] Speaker 3: I was against it, but yes, I said no. [00:01:22] Speaker 2: And I guess the point is, there's a first chance I've had to ask you some questions about what went on in this case. Fair to say? Yes. I'm going to start, but I want to start with a 10,000 foot view of this situation and your role in it, especially as you come here as a witness for a trial. Okay? Okay. Okay. You had a marriage with Matt Resteli that was falling apart. Fair to say? Fair to say. Notwithstanding that there were good times, especially early on, right? Correct. The, as the marriage fell apart, it ultimately got to the point where, as we saw in some texts, you just hated it, right? [00:02:23] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:02:24] Speaker 2: And you hated Matt? [00:02:29] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:02:30] Speaker 2: Oh, you hated your life, right? [00:02:34] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:02:35] Speaker 2: Now, you had reasons for that, right? [00:02:41] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:02:43] Speaker 2: And those reasons included, you thought you were being mistreated by Matt, you thought you were being abused by Matt, right? Correct. We're going to get to this notion of physical, mental, sexual, whatever abuse that has come up in the history of the investigation. But whatever it is, you agree with me that you felt like that you treated each other poorly? Yes. He treated you poorly and you treated him poorly? Correct. This is not a trial about Matt. I want, however, to just sort of build up the narrative here, okay? [00:03:27] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:03:28] Speaker 2: You felt that he treated you poorly, but you had a group of friends and families that you could communicate with, right? Correct. Let's talk about family first. You have a close-knit family, right? Yes. And you, excuse me for a moment. I'm not sure I should try to do this. I'm going to move your finger. The record I'm putting up, the illustrative exhibit of the family tree. Can you see that again? [00:04:08] Speaker 3: Not entirely. [00:04:09] Speaker 2: Not entirely. Sorry. How about now? [00:04:13] Speaker 3: Yes, I can see it. [00:04:14] Speaker 2: All right. Your family, an RV staff, was close-knit, right? Yes. We saw how, as a matter of fact, you would share a lot of electronic communications with them about what was going on in your life, right? Yes. And certainly, you're being frustrated and upset, feeling whatever you meant by abused and things like that. By Matt, you erred to your friends and family. [00:04:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:04:59] Speaker 2: Now, that might sound obvious. That's what we do with our families and friends, I suppose. But you did that in text messages, right? Yes. And you did, we see all these text messages, but let's be clear, you know how to use a telephone, right? You called, right? Correct. You called your family a lot, right? [00:05:21] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:21] Speaker 2: Now, we don't have, we'll get to this interesting feature of some of the phone calls that you recorded in this case. But we, of course, this jury doesn't get to hear all the things you told your family on phone calls. But you made phone calls, right? Yes. And you aired your grievances to your family. [00:05:38] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:39] Speaker 2: And you knew, their family sided with you on your irritations with Matt, right? Yes. And that helps explain why they would call him crappy and use poop emojis and things like that, right? They were trying to support you in your position that Matt was treating you poorly. Isn't that a fair characterization? [00:06:05] Speaker 3: Yes. And they had also seen it firsthand. [00:06:07] Speaker 2: And they'd seen it firsthand, right? So, while we're on the subject, let's get to that. So, let's talk about the Disney event. You had talked about this time where at least somehow in the course of a Disney vacation happened in a room that you weren't at. But your understanding was that your sister, Tara Lynn, believed, resulted in her believing that Matt was striking the kids in, spanking them or whatever, in the bathroom, right? Yes. Okay, this, this isn't a trial about Matt. Matt was a heavy drinker, right? Yes, he was. And the point is, is that your family knew that. Yes. They knew that from seeing it, right? Correct. And how he would act if he was drinking like most, many people do, right? Correct. And it would exacerbate his unpredictability, fair to say? [00:07:13] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:07:14] Speaker 2: It would exacerbate, and they could see how readily he might be angry. [00:07:23] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:07:24] Speaker 2: What the extent of that anger could result in. Yes. And so, whenever, and this is probably especially Tara Lynn, right? Because Tara Lynn was living in California and had a chance to have more personal contact with you guys, right? Yes. Tara Lynn is quite a communicator, isn't she? I would say so. She really shares the information around through the family, fair to say? [00:08:01] Speaker 3: Around the family, I feel like it's more my mother and myself. [00:08:08] Speaker 2: Let's go quickly to that, because I'm just, this web of your family, while you may mainly communicate with Tara Lynn and your mother, Tracy, those two are avid spreaders of information. Agreed? No. You don't think so, that your mother just shares almost everything she gets with the rest of the family? No, she doesn't share it with the rest of the family. How do you know that? [00:08:38] Speaker 3: I don't know that. [00:08:41] Speaker 2: Um, I mean, uh, that we can, of course, ask them. Tara Lynn, too, sharing information with the rest of the family. [00:08:51] Speaker 3: I don't know if she shares it with the rest of the family. [00:08:53] Speaker 2: We saw this evidence yesterday where you actually create links and group texts having to do with the tracking device that you would put in Matt's car, right? [00:09:07] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:09:08] Speaker 2: Because there's lots of group texts between you all, where you're all on sharing information, including and especially information about Matt. Right? [00:09:17] Speaker 3: Not always about Matt. [00:09:19] Speaker 2: Not always, but sometimes you would show your grievances in group format, right? [00:09:24] Speaker 3: Not with the entire family. [00:09:27] Speaker 2: Um, so you're, at the, at the least you acknowledge that you don't know how much of what you tell Tracy and Tara Lynn then gets out to everybody. [00:09:37] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:09:38] Speaker 2: And the everybody is Tim, especially Kevin and Rachel who are in Utah, right? Correct. So the Utah contingent, we've got Rachel, Tara Lynn, Kevin, um, Ian, I'm sorry, Rachel, Tracy, Kevin, and Tim are your family members, siblings, except for your mother, Tracy, who are in Utah. [00:10:11] Speaker 3: Jacob and Ari are, also in Utah. [00:10:14] Speaker 2: Jacob and Ari are, too. They live in the house at the relevant times, especially in this case, with Tracy and Kevin, right? And so, as this marriage of yours, uh, is dissolving, is, is reaching the state that we've heard about already, and you're sharing your grievances with the family, you ultimately come out, um, really just run away from California, right? Yes. Now you, you ran away, at least you've told, um, police and others that you ran away because of domestic abuse. Agreed? [00:11:08] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:11:10] Speaker 2: Um, domestic violence, agreed? [00:11:15] Speaker 3: You would have to define domestic violence. [00:11:17] Speaker 2: We'll get to it, but if those were your words, what does that mean? When you were telling people you were a victim of domestic violence and had to flee here, what, what did you mean? [00:11:26] Speaker 3: I never stated that he hit me. [00:11:29] Speaker 2: Okay. So, when you used the word domestic violence, you didn't think somebody was going to take that to you and he struck you? [00:11:37] Speaker 3: It was other forms of abuse. [00:11:40] Speaker 2: But my point is, if you were to use the word domestic violence. [00:11:43] Speaker 3: Would sexual abuse be considered domestic violence? [00:11:47] Speaker 2: Well, I asked the questions, but you used the words domestic violence when you described why you had to flee from that, right? Yes. And you don't know what someone would take that to mean. If you didn't mean hitting, certainly the rest of your family, when you called it domestic violence, might think you were being here, right? [00:12:13] Speaker 3: Possibly. [00:12:15] Speaker 2: And you described the abuse as something that was such that when you ran away from California, you were afraid that Matt might chase you down. Yes, I was. So, I think you have called it scared shitless he was going to come out and hurt you. Absolutely. And those are things, again, that you shared with the family and the family knew your situation when you fled here, right? [00:12:52] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:12:55] Speaker 2: Now, that doesn't mean it's true, but that's what you said to the people in your family when you fled from California and then you arrived in Utah, right? [00:13:09] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:11] Speaker 2: Then, overall, again, from a higher view here is you've run away from an abusive husband. And in fact, it happens to be that when you did that, Tara Lynn, it was actually Tara Lynn's idea to put a tracker in, right? Yes. To put this thing that they had gotten at Disney to track kids, she still had this air tag, I don't want to call it a tracker, it's an air tag. But that was to know where Matt would be if, assuming that he was in the truck, right? [00:13:46] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:47] Speaker 2: So, Tara Lynn is saying we better track where Matt is in case he chases us, right? That's one thought you guys had. What if he gets the car and chases after us? One is to know if he otherwise later comes. This is what you and Tara Lynn talked about as the need for knowing where Matt was, right? Correct. One was if he would falsely say the truck was stolen or towed, which he actually did, which is not to be true, right? Because you could tell from the tracker if he was being a potential threat or saying something was false. Fair to say? [00:14:33] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:14:33] Speaker 2: Now, Tara Lynn, okay, strike that, sorry. So this is the aura and the circumstance in what the family knows as you come fleeing to Utah. You didn't talk to the family, however, about everything you talked with your mom about, right? Correct. A lot of this, if the family knows it, is being filtered through Tracy, if she's saying it, right? [00:15:05] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:15:07] Speaker 2: Now, you get there and we've heard about the lead up. Matt was pretty, expressed being very angry at this circumstance where you took off without telling him, right? [00:15:23] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:24] Speaker 2: And do you agree that that's understandable on Matt's part? [00:15:31] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:37] Speaker 2: But he did express a great amount of anger to you and your mother and wanted things like addresses and said he crossed the final line, right? Yes. So now we're in a situation where, true or not, this family circumstance in the milieu is wondering what's going to happen and how Matt might react. Does that make sense? [00:16:05] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:16:08] Speaker 2: A couple weeks go by, you're engaged in discussions and plans and stuff about how you get involved. And actually make it final. You could stay here and keep the kids and not have to return to the marriage, right? Correct. Now, there's a variety of ideas you're bantered about. Agreed? [00:16:31] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:16:31] Speaker 2: Now, look, those were all thoughts and plans and ideas that you and your mom were working together on, right? Yes. Certainly, you're not involving, in that regard, your whole family. You're not talking to your sisters about these various plans to try to make this permanent. [00:16:52] Speaker 3: I was talking to Carolyn and Rachel, yes. [00:16:55] Speaker 2: Carolyn and Rachel, that you didn't want to go back? [00:16:57] Speaker ?: Correct. [00:16:59] Speaker 2: Again, these are people that are, at least at this point, have heard that among the reasons are you're suffering domestic abuse, right? [00:17:08] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:17:11] Speaker 2: Let's get to that. You brought up sexual. I mean, you described to all these people that you're being sexually abused by Matt. [00:17:24] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:17:26] Speaker 2: Now, what do you mean by sexual abuse? You would tell Tara Lynn that you were being raped, right? [00:17:37] Speaker 3: You would force me to have sex with them, yes. [00:17:39] Speaker 2: But usually it doesn't work, rape. [00:17:41] Speaker 3: Isn't that what rape is? Forcing somebody to have sex with them? [00:17:45] Speaker 2: Once again, I ask the questions, but you used the word rape in connection with what you were suffering in the hands of Matt. Yes. But Matt, in reality, Matt didn't rape you. [00:17:59] Speaker 3: I disagree. [00:18:00] Speaker 2: Okay, so, these are the discussions you're having with the family about the severity of your need to remain in Utah and to not have Matt in your life, right? [00:18:12] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:18:15] Speaker ?: Sorry. [00:18:17] Speaker 2: So, your plans with your mother, and we've heard your mother is quite excitable, right? I mean, she talks tough, fair to say? [00:18:33] Speaker 3: I'm sorry, say that again? She talks tough. Yes. [00:18:38] Speaker 2: I'll go on. I'll just drive out there and strangle myself, she would say, right? [00:18:43] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:18:44] Speaker 2: And sometimes discussions were had with all of you in person or different family members in person, correct? Yes. Sometimes I would be over at the house, in your mother's house, right? Yes. Where Kevin left. Yes. Now, Kevin mostly was hanging out. Kevin really didn't have a job, right? Correct. And was kind of beholden to Tracy, your mother, right? [00:19:23] Speaker 3: I'm sorry? [00:19:24] Speaker 2: He didn't have money. He kind of was beholden to asking her for money, having her buy food and things like that, right? Correct. As a matter of fact, what Kevin was is a really, really good pool player. Yes, he was. And that was his passion, and he would borrow dues for the pool, and pool meaning billiards, pool, and things like that from his mother so he could do it. [00:19:48] Speaker 3: Yes, as far as I know. [00:19:50] Speaker 2: We might unpack this again a little later, but I mean, Kevin would express shame about that role, wouldn't he? [00:20:06] Speaker 3: He never expressed it to me. [00:20:08] Speaker 2: Well, you knew that he, as a matter of fact, and we'll get to it, and I think maybe addressed it a little bit on direct. And I'm sorry if I forget whether things were on direct to that age, but this notion that he would tell his mom he felt worthless. [00:20:30] Speaker 3: Yes, she shared that with me. [00:20:33] Speaker 2: So much so that he felt he really didn't have a place on that sort of thing that he would have been suicidal. [00:20:40] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:20:42] Speaker 2: That was related to, in part, because he was pretty despondent about a breakup with a girlfriend he had in Illinois, right? [00:20:51] Speaker 3: I don't know the reason why he felt suicidal. [00:20:55] Speaker 2: You just knew that he would express feelings of worthlessness and suicide, right? Correct. And, again, when we unpack in more detail these events of the 90-question when Matt was murdered, as you say, by you, you would actually even talk to your mother about her belief that she could use that to manipulate Kevin. Right? [00:21:22] Speaker 3: I don't believe so. I'm sorry. State that again. [00:21:26] Speaker 2: For instance, she would say, Kevin's suicidal. We could just have Kevin go out there and kill Matt and kill himself. She had said that out loud, yes. So, do you agree that that's an example of somebody who thinks they can manipulate their son's mental state to cause him to do something that you guys would like, or at least she would like to see done? [00:21:52] Speaker 3: Absolutely. [00:22:02] Speaker 2: You've seen the workup while you're out there to coming up with various plans and ideas and attempts to not have to deal with your life with Matt, not have to go back to California. Some of them were delay tactics you've described, right? Correct. It's apparently by a divorce lawyer who even suggested delay tactics. [00:22:27] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:22:31] Speaker 2: Some, and that continued to go on until, as you have agreed, that after the discussion with the lawyer the day before, you felt, I think, you told one of your friends in the text, you felt fucked. [00:23:03] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:23:06] Speaker 2: Hopeless. [00:23:07] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:23:08] Speaker 2: It wasn't going to be a legal way for you to get fucked, right? [00:23:13] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:23:13] Speaker ?: Correct. [00:23:17] Speaker 2: And is that then, in your mind, the time that you believe you entered into a conspiracy with your mother to enact a plan to lure Matt to Utah? [00:23:43] Speaker 3: It happened about two weeks before the lawyer's conversation. [00:23:46] Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about that. Maybe I'll unpack it later. At the time that you felt hopeless, then you already had, like, what, a plan B or D or C that involved getting Matt killed? Yes. Say two weeks before. What do you mean? [00:24:03] Speaker 3: There was discussions about how we could get him out here and could make it look like self-defense. Two weeks before? Yes, sir. [00:24:14] Speaker 2: We may go through some of your prior statements in that regard later, but I'll stick with that for now. I mean, that didn't start, that plan would ever, by the way, when you had those discussions, it was just you and Tracy, right? [00:24:32] Speaker 3: I believe so. [00:24:33] Speaker 2: I mean, you remember, you, in fact, would sometimes leave your electronic devices somewhere so the two of you could talk and there wouldn't be a chance that it would be overheard. Correct. Out in the yard and things like that, right? [00:24:50] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:24:52] Speaker 2: This was never discussed with any of your family members, right? The plan to murder him? [00:24:59] Speaker ?: No. [00:25:00] Speaker 2: The plan to lure him out so he could be hurt? [00:25:04] Speaker 3: It was discussed with my mom and Kevin and myself. [00:25:08] Speaker 2: Well, let's get to Kevin. What do you mean discussed? What do you mean discussed with Kevin? Kevin's never around. [00:25:18] Speaker 3: He was around sometimes and he would be a part of those discussions. [00:25:22] Speaker 2: You're saying now to this jury, in this trial, that Kevin involved himself personally in discussions about luring Matt and hurting him? [00:25:30] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:25:33] Speaker 2: As we're going to find, that's news to me. When was that? When was it that Kevin was involved with discussions? [00:25:42] Speaker 3: After sushi, I know that he sat down with us and had that discussion. [00:25:47] Speaker 2: We're going to get to that too, also news. But you said that weeks before you're putting together a plan, whether it's A, B, C, or D, with your mother to lure him out and have him kill. He was killed. Your mom's actually saying she'd do it, right? [00:26:05] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:26:08] Speaker 2: She'd shoot it. That's what she's telling you, right? [00:26:12] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:26:18] Speaker 2: Let's be clear. You're not telling this jury that Kevin was part of any of that discussion, right? [00:26:25] Speaker 3: He did have a part in a discussion, yes. [00:26:28] Speaker 2: Well, let's nail it down. When, I mean... After sushi. Let's define what weeks are versus days. I'm trying to nail down when you decide, in your mind, to conspire to have Matt killed with the plan that you and your mother are developing. It's just you and your mother developing, and it's your position that it's after sushi that Kevin is somehow involved for the very first time. Can we agree on that? [00:26:56] Speaker 3: No. Because Kevin knew what was going on. [00:26:59] Speaker 2: How do you know what he knew? I mean, you've told the police a million times that you didn't talk. You said, right, to this jury, you didn't talk to him, you didn't text him, you didn't communicate with him. But my mother did. Well, how do you know what your mother told him? [00:27:17] Speaker 3: You're right. I don't know. [00:27:20] Speaker 2: Now, your mother has been described, and I think maybe even by you, as a mastermind. When you talk to these police, in your interviews and such, you talk to her about being the mastermind of this. It being her idea, right? Yes. So you're admitting that if you think that Kevin's involved, it's because you assume your mother somehow got him involved. Can we agree on that? Sure. Because you have never even told by Tracy, never even told you that he bought in, was informed, or did anything with her knowledge. In other words, not even your mother told you what she ever told Kevin, right? [00:28:00] Speaker 3: Not what happened at Sushi, but I know that she had discussed it with him. [00:28:05] Speaker 2: How do you know? You've never been in the presence of your mother talking. Correct. You've told police, didn't you, that in fact, the scenario was, your mother seemed to isolate you and Kevin in this, and say, I'll talk to Kevin, and she talked to you, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. You never talked to Kevin, right? Correct. And you're never present when your mother talks to Kevin, right? Correct. So these things you're talking about involving Kevin, and then you know what she has, are not first person. [00:28:41] Speaker 3: You're not present with Kevin for any of it. There was one conversation where I was present with Kevin and my mother. [00:28:52] Speaker 2: Enlighten me. We'll get to the fact of why I'm surprised to hear that. [00:28:56] Speaker 3: It was after Sushi, when they came back, when she told me I'm going to Sushi with Kevin. They both came back. We had a little bit of a discussion, and that was it. [00:29:11] Speaker 2: We're going to get to a timeline then to understand that, but let's just place it in time for this trial now. That happened in time after some sort of Sushi lunch occurred, right? Correct. For instance, by the way, you don't know that anybody had a Sushi lunch except for Tracy telling you she went to lunch with Kevin, right? Correct. You didn't go. [00:29:39] Speaker 3: No, I did not. [00:29:40] Speaker 2: You didn't talk to Kevin about going to Sushi. [00:29:43] Speaker 3: When they came back, I knew that they both went to Sushi. [00:29:46] Speaker 2: And you knew that why? [00:29:48] Speaker 3: Because they discussed it. [00:29:49] Speaker 2: They? [00:29:50] Speaker 3: Kevin and my mother. [00:29:52] Speaker 2: In the house? Out in the yard. After, during this time period where you told police you never saw Kevin from 5 to 9, right? [00:30:01] Speaker 3: I was mistaken that, yes, I did see Kevin after Sushi. [00:30:05] Speaker 2: So we have another version today. And your explanation is that you were mistaken when you told police in hours of interviews connected to your plea agreement where you were supposed to be truthful? You just left that out? [00:30:19] Speaker 3: It's a very traumatizing thing. And, yes, I may have forgotten about it. [00:30:25] Speaker 2: You're admitting then that it's new today, that you're now today saying for the first time you had a conversation with Kevin about this. Are you admitting that? Yes. Let me stop for a second and establish, if I can, what your... What are the occasions that you have engaged in communications and interviews with law enforcement? You, after you entered into, well, in connection with what you hoped would be a plea deal, we'll get to what you achieved in that plea deal. But you were able to meet in a room and have an interview, right? Yes. And that was with your lawyer? Yes. And prosecutors? Yes. And Detective Nordean? Correct. Detective Nordean, I rarely get to do this. Do you see him in the courtroom today? [00:31:39] Speaker 3: Yes, I do. [00:31:40] Speaker 2: And where is he sitting? [00:31:41] Speaker 3: He's sitting behind the prosecutors. [00:31:43] Speaker 2: With the badge. So you've got... Yes. He's the KC, didn't you? Yes. So you have this debrief, right? And we're going to get to how it was set up and whether you were supposed to tell the truth, the whole truth, answer all the questions. But that occurs in a room, a conference room type place, right? Yes. Then you have another meeting in December, I think it's December 18th, where they engage you in a Zoom meeting from the prison, right? Yes. Have you talked to him since December 18th? [00:32:23] Speaker ?: No. [00:32:24] Speaker 2: No preparation for today's trial? [00:32:29] Speaker 3: Briefly, right before I come in yesterday. Where was that? In the holding cell. My attorney came and talked to me. Not with the prosecutors? No, sir. [00:32:50] Speaker 2: Again, we'll pack this more, but we're trying to stay on this narrative of the overall events and your role. Whatever the timing of things for your conspiracy to kill Matt, after it happened, you, of course, lied to police. [00:33:16] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:33:18] Speaker 2: After it happened, you, of course, lied directly to Matt, his mother. Yes. And his brother. [00:33:28] Speaker 3: I never spoke with his brother. [00:33:31] Speaker 2: You know that Tracy did, right? [00:33:34] Speaker 3: I was not aware. [00:33:36] Speaker 2: You guys, have you heard the recordings of calls with Diane and Mark, where there's whispering in the background so much so that even Diane says, I can tell your mother's feeding you questions. Do you remember that one? [00:33:50] Speaker 3: I was not aware that Mark was on the telephone call. Okay. [00:33:54] Speaker 2: But you and Tracy are together when you're having these calls. [00:33:58] Speaker 3: Yes, I said that yesterday. [00:34:00] Speaker 2: And you're covering it up. You're not telling the truth about things that happen, right? Correct. And you get to be out of custody and not charged with anything for three and a half months until October 29th, right? [00:34:17] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:34:18] Speaker 2: When you were finally arrested and charged with being part of the murder. [00:34:23] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:34:25] Speaker 2: In the course of those proceedings, you get to see the reports and the evidence and transcripts of other hearings that might have happened, evidentiary hearings, where people like your sister and others testified, right? Correct. And you get all that and you, it's pretty clear to you that you're cooked, that you conspired, lured mad in with precious phone calls about, see you soon, doors open, et cetera. And you're guilty and you're going to get convicted of the murder. [00:35:06] Speaker 3: I don't believe I received, I'm not sure on when I received the transcripts as to when I took the plea deal. [00:35:16] Speaker 2: Fair enough, you had them at the time you did the interviews with the police, right? [00:35:21] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. [00:35:22] Speaker 2: Or with the prosecutor. You were arranged for, excuse me, I don't know. Trying to get a plea bargain, right? [00:36:09] Speaker 3: I wanted to tell the truth. [00:36:11] Speaker 2: You arranged for a plea bargain. [00:36:14] Speaker 3: Yes, I came to my attorney and I said, I want to tell the truth. [00:36:19] Speaker 2: You could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? [00:36:22] Speaker 3: I could have. [00:36:35] Speaker ?: I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? [00:36:49] Speaker 3: I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? I could have told the truth without a plea bargain, right? [00:36:51] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. [00:37:02] Speaker 2: I believe we have a stipulation and agreement that defense exhibits one, two, three, and four, would be admissible. [00:37:21] Speaker 4: State concurse. All right. [00:37:23] Speaker 1: Defense exhibits one through four are admitted without a plea bargain. [00:37:27] Speaker 2: For the record, and the benefit of the description in the exhibit list, exhibit one is a letter that we'll call an offer letter from the county attorney's office. So the two is what we'll call a proffer letter. From that. That's June 6th. So thank you, your honor. May 16th is the offer letter. [00:37:58] Speaker 1: All right. So May 16th is the offer. Exhibit one. What year? 2025? 2025. Thank you, Fay. And then June, what was the? June 6th, 2025 is in, uh, Catherine Nestelli's proffer through her lawyer on the lawyer's letterhead. [00:38:22] Speaker 2: Then there is exhibit three was just called the grant use grant of use immunity document. May 19th of 2025. And defendants four is what I'll describe as a written statement by Ms. Ristelli, Ms. Ristelli, in the pre-sentencing process. Which would have been created in connection with pre-sentence report appears to be dated July 16th, 2025. Thank you. At any rate, I mean, you didn't, you didn't call them up and said you want to tell the truth. You had your attorney, see if he could get your plea bargain, right? Yes. And in response to that, the state made you a plea bargain, right? Correct. [00:39:41] Speaker ?: So, we put one up. [00:39:42] Speaker 2: We're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. [00:39:55] Speaker ?: So, we're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. So, we're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. So, we're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. So, we're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. So, we're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. So, we're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. So, we're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. So, we're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. So, we're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. [00:40:08] Speaker 2: So, we're going to test our ability to put this for the first time. Right. Do you see exhibit one in your screen, Kate? Yes. Who has to publish? [00:40:36] Speaker 1: Any objection? [00:40:37] Speaker 4: No objection. [00:40:38] Speaker 1: No objection. [00:40:39] Speaker 4: No objection for the state on one through four on publishing. Thank you. [00:40:45] Speaker 2: Here's what we're calling the offer, Leonard. Your attorney, apparently pretty skilled, he gets them to offer you a plea deal that would reduce the murder to a second-degree felony from a first-degree felony from a first-degree felony, right? Correct. Now, you certainly understood the difference. Explain to me. Secondary felony has an indeterminate sentence of one to 15 years, whereas a first-degree felony, and if it's a murder, is 15 or even 20 years to life in prison, right? Correct. [00:41:28] Speaker ?: Correct. [00:41:28] Speaker 2: So, you moved from 20 to life to 1 to 15 is your indeterminate sentence. You knew that was going to be part of the plea bargain that the government gave to the person who lured Matt to his death, right? [00:41:42] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:41:43] Speaker 2: And some other included that you would plead to some other things, and one of them had to be conspiracy. They're saying if you want your deal to get that reduction, then you've got to plead to conspiracy too, right? Correct. Now, the conspiracy you understood, you had a lawyer, you ran all this through your lawyer, right? Correct. And I think you agreed that he provided you good assistance, right? [00:42:14] Speaker 3: Yes, he did. [00:42:15] Speaker 2: I think he answered all your questions and he felt you understood the legal process and the fact process and the plea bargaining process, right? Correct. So, with these other offenses, again, they're reduced. Now, the felony of a discharge, the felony discharge of a weapon, that one says felony one, right? Correct. Now, felony one is five to life, correct? Correct. However, there are matrices, matrix, that give you an idea, at least, of what kind of sentence might result from one kind of plea, right? Correct. And in reality, even though that third degree felony, I'm sorry, number three felony first degree, F1, even though that's an F1, five to life, under your sentencing at the board, the matrix that's going to mostly apply is the second degree murder, right? [00:43:12] Speaker 3: I'm sorry to say that again. [00:43:14] Speaker 2: You've got a matrix that applies and it shows what the likely sentences might be from the board of pardons for various offense levels, right? Correct. [00:43:26] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:43:27] Speaker ?: I'm on the subject. I'm on the subject. [00:43:29] Speaker 2: Let's just do it. May I approach? Yes. [00:43:32] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:43:33] Speaker 2: We're just talking, sort of, in generalities, and there's no, oh, I'm sorry. Move for admission of defendants, five. No objection. [00:44:00] Speaker 1: Objection. No objection. Correct. Except five is a bidder without objection. [00:44:05] Speaker 2: Let's put five up as we talk about what this offer letter means for you that the state's willing to give you. It's this, as it comes up, as we're getting it up, it's a matrix. It was part of your pre-sentence report, right? Correct. And what we were talking about in terms of time is if you look down on the matrix as they, as they, uh, they being pre-sentence report preparers and your lawyer was speaking to you about this, as you indicated, there's a square around 108 months, right? Correct. Correct. That's because you were allowed to plead to a second degree felony, right, that resulted in death. Right? Yes. And you were shown that if you go over here to first degree murder, which is what you're charged with at the time, that's 11 years more, 240 months, right? Correct. Right. Can we go back to the proper letter of exhibit one? I mean, sorry, the offer letter. So entering a plea deal at this point, at least, gives you the idea that you might get, which is 11 more Christmases by entering a plea deal, right? Out of custody. [00:45:37] Speaker ?: Correct. [00:45:38] Speaker 2: Correct. You don't know. You were going to explain that this is an indeterminate sentencing state, right? Correct. So it's actually in the hands of the board of pardons. Yes, it is. How long you actually did it. Yes. And that matrix is to give you an idea and we're talking about how that gives you an idea about the difference between murder and second degree felony that you are allowed to plead to. But there could be board hearings where the parole board actually varies from that to some extent, for some reason. [00:46:14] Speaker 3: Absolutely. To my understanding. [00:46:16] Speaker 2: People can go talk at those and ask longer than 108 months, right? Correct. And people can come and say, you know what? She did a good job testifying in the state of Utah. We think she should get consideration for that. And they can actually help advocate for you to get your 108 months later. The government can, right? [00:46:39] Speaker 3: That's news to me. [00:46:42] Speaker 2: Let's go back to what you had to do to get this from the government. This is what the government says. That you have to give a full and complete proffer of evidence through your attorney. This says Mike Brown. I didn't redact this, but fine attorney. And the idea is that you're supposed to give him an idea and then he's going to give the government an idea of what your testimony would be, right? Say that again? That was terrible when I ran on and on. I apologize. Number one in the offer that's contingent. You don't get this offer. You don't get this plea bargain unless you undertake a proffer of information through your attorney. You give the government some information, right? [00:47:40] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:47:41] Speaker 2: Okay. I hope that was a little better. And you see right there that it has to be deemed truthful. Yes. Now look, you know at this point that you're charged with conspiracy, right? Yes. And that the conspiracy you're charged was under the government's position involves your mother, right? Yes. And we'll keep unpacking this, but you make very clear that your mother was the driving force in this conspiracy, right? [00:48:21] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:48:22] Speaker 2: And then you know that they've charged Kevin. It changed his charge and batted on the conspiracy when they charged you and your mother, right? [00:48:30] Speaker 3: I was not aware of Kevin's charges. [00:48:32] Speaker 2: You didn't know Kevin was charged with conspiracy? Yes. [00:48:35] Speaker 3: I knew that Kevin was charged with conspiracy after reading over paperwork I received. Okay. [00:48:41] Speaker 2: And in fairness, we'll get to this and refresh your recollection if need be, but you had seen transcripts of evidentiary hearings that involved Kevin's conspiracy case when you gave your statement, right? [00:48:58] Speaker 3: I had seen the pre-trial. Yeah. It's called preliminary hearing, right? Oh, yes. [00:49:07] Speaker 2: That's fine. But the point is, is evidence, testimony, the state's case is aired. It's aired to a judge. It's a preliminary hearing, but it has a lot of information. It's a transcript. It's a couple hundred pages, right? Yes. Yes. Now, you knew about your charges that included you have to, to be in a conspiracy, you have to agree to do this with someone else, right? Yes. Could be one other person, right? Yes. Or more. [00:49:42] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:49:43] Speaker 2: Then, according to this document, the government says, we'll receive the proffer. And if it's determined to be truthful, we'll send you an immunity letter, right? [00:50:01] Speaker 3: Yes. I believe I got the immunity letter the same time I received this paper. [00:50:06] Speaker 2: Even though it's dated differently, that's for the record, exhibit three. Immunity means we'll not charge you in relation to what you tell us, right? That's your understanding of it. Correct. And if you have said false things previously, we won't charge you. Right? Yes. However, it says, if when you get on a witness stand and you think you're not telling the truth, you could be charged with perjury. Correct. So I still need one. [00:50:46] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:50:47] Speaker 2: So then the next third contingency is a formal interview to be conducted of Mr. Restelli by detectives at the American Ford Police Department. That's the third one, right? Yes. Okay. So that's what you need to do to get this plea deal in this reduction. [00:51:13] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:38] Speaker 2: Okay. Let's talk about what you told them in that first step, the proffer. Okay. Through your attorney, this is defendants two, you provided some information on what you might tell them in an interview. Fair to say? Yes. You, among those items of information that were iterated, you gave an ID. You gave an idea about the fact that you spoke about your relationship with Matt and your relationship with your mother and confiding about your marital issues and things like that, correct? [00:52:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:53:11] Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Everybody knew that. Number two, Kevin Ellis is the brother of Catherine Ristelli, right? Yes. Hardly news. Number three, Matthew Ristelli, the deceased, is the husband of Catherine Ristelli. [00:54:25] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:54:26] Speaker 2: Then we get to four, Catherine and Matt had marital issues leading up to Catherine moving from her home in California with Matt to her mother's home in Utah. Tracy Ristelli's mother, Tracy is Catherine Ristelli's mother, right? [00:54:36] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:54:37] Speaker 2: During Catherine and the marriage, Catherine would confide in Tracy Rist about marital issues. [00:54:44] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:54:45] Speaker 2: Aside from that, aside from Tracy, Catherine never discussed her relationship with Kevin Ellis or other family members. On occasion, however, Catherine would discuss her struggles with Tara. That's Tara. That's Tara Lynn, right? [00:54:59] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:55:00] Speaker 2: Now, we already talked about how information proliferated through your family. Let's go to seven. When Catherine moved to Utah to live with her mother, Tracy, it became apparent Tracy wanted to remove Matt from Catherine's life. Right? Yes. Tracy wanted to remove Matt from your life. [00:55:22] Speaker 3: Yes. You did too. Yes, I did. [00:55:28] Speaker 2: And according to this property, the government needs to decide is truthful. You otherwise didn't tell any of that to Kevin. Agreed? Matt says you didn't communicate with Kevin. Yes. Eight. Catherine believes Matt and Tracy have never gotten along well. That's, by the way, clear from the evidence you saw yesterday, right? [00:56:01] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:56:03] Speaker 2: That Tracy has issues with men and wanted to act against Matt. This information you had your lawyer sent over is just, Tracy, doesn't like men? [00:56:17] Speaker 3: I believe so. [00:56:20] Speaker 2: Doesn't like what? Men. Thank you, Your Honor. Large group of folks that cannot stand the fact that sometimes I mumble. So please call me out. And so she wanted to act against Matt in action with Tracy initiated, right? Yes. Instigated and planned, right? Yes. The first thing you'd tell the government is that Tracy is the instigator, planner, and mastermind of this, right? Yes. [00:56:55] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:56:57] Speaker 2: And she would, and I'll start to paraphrase, because these are in evidence, but that Tracy would talk about being violent to Matt, removing from the situation, but you didn't really think she'd follow through, right? No, I didn't. And that's what you put in here. Tracy would make mention of her intentions in passing, but not in any concerted effort where Catherine and Tracy and Kevin would meet to discuss the plan. However, in retrospect, Tracy proved to be true to her word, right? Yes. All this is Tracy do what she would do, what she wanted to do, and Tracy would be word. The word, the name Kevin's not in there, right? Catherine and Kevin never discussed any criminal actions toward Matt. This is the very first thing you say about Kevin, number 10, in your offer letter that has to be deemed to be true, or you don't get your plea deal from the government, the only ones that can give you a plea deal. Catherine, and Catherine's you, right? Yes. And Kevin never discussed any criminal actions toward Matt. That's what it says, right? [00:58:16] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:58:18] Speaker 2: And what's your position? Is this document that is a proffer that has to be believed by the government to get a plea deal true? Did you tell the truth to the government? [00:58:32] Speaker 3: I forgot that he was there after sushi. [00:58:35] Speaker 2: You are racking your mind to tell the government what you're going to say to them, who's prosecuting Kevin Ellis for a conspiracy with you, and you have now forgotten until trial that you have evidence to the contrary? I don't know evidence. Well, fair enough, we've already established it, you don't have evidence, you're just uttering it, but when you wrote this document, did you rack your brain and tell your attorney everything so he could, you're proffering? To the best of my knowledge, yes. [00:59:09] Speaker 3: All right. [00:59:11] Speaker 2: I didn't lie to your lawyer, did you? [00:59:13] Speaker 3: No. [00:59:16] Speaker 2: Tracy acted as the intermediary and would only make mentions of things to Tracy, but then Tracy would meet with Kevin. Here we are again, right in the first proffer, you are describing this intermediary position of Tracy. Tracy is working with you on her plan, and then she is doing whatever you don't know with Kevin. [00:59:42] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:59:47] Speaker 2: Well, I haven't described some of the things that were done in preparation for Matt's arrival on July 12th, right? [00:59:55] Speaker 3: I do not have 11, I have 1 through 8, and then it goes right to 18. [01:00:01] Speaker 2: Oh, sorry. Are we able to page two? And thanks for catching that, because that's the one marked with an exhibit sticker. I'll have to fix that. Now we can show it on the screen, and I can walk through. [01:00:30] Speaker ?: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:00:59] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:01:02] Speaker ?: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:01:04] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. [01:01:05] Speaker ?: Let's see where I can stand here. [01:01:05] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:01:10] Speaker ?: Let's see where I can stand here. [01:01:11] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:01:14] Speaker ?: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:01:29] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:00] Speaker 3: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:02] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:12] Speaker 3: Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:13] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:16] Speaker 3: Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:17] Speaker ?: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:29] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:40] Speaker 3: Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:41] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:47] Speaker ?: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:02:59] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:03:41] Speaker 3: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:03:48] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:04:13] Speaker 3: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:04:15] Speaker 2: Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. Let's see where I can stand here. [01:04:18] Speaker ?: Let's see where I can stand here. [01:04:29] Speaker 2: Where you're sharing stories and talking to people, right? Yes. And smoking pot. Yes. One of the things you do, you get on Discord, you'd all get in there and they all smoke pot together and then you'd talk. Yes. But focus on, you said that Stephanie did say some true things. For instance, when you started talking about Matt and your life and your abuse on Discord, right? Yes. You really expressed to these people that you were a victim of abuse and rape and things like that, right? Yes. And you did a pretty good job to the extent that even some of the males on there would express, "Where does he live? I'll protect you from him. I'll go get him. Tell me his name." Things like that, right? [01:05:17] Speaker 3: I don't ever recall them saying that. [01:05:19] Speaker 2: Well, Stephanie recalled it. Are you saying she's lying? [01:05:22] Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. So are you saying you didn't say any of that stuff? I'm not saying I didn't say any of that stuff. I'm saying the men on there would react. [01:05:31] Speaker 2: And here's my point. Sorry to interrupt you. Here's my point. You could tell stories that could get men to react on Discord. Agreed? Can you agree with that? Sure. [01:05:43] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:05:44] Speaker 2: So that's where the Stephanie reference in here comes up. And it's to the point that Stephanie had this sort of obsession with crime and gory details. Agreed? She did. You had to talk about that you'd even send a picture of Matt's dead body to her if she wanted it, right? [01:06:02] Speaker 3: I did not say that, no. She'd have Tracy, you'd have Tracy send it? I did not, those words never came out of my mouth. [01:06:15] Speaker 2: Tracy, number 14. Your mom had mentioned to Stephanie that slocum after the fact, meaning after Matt was murdered, that if Stephanie wanted a photo of the body, that's Matt's body, right? Yes. That your mom would take a picture of the body, right? [01:06:37] Speaker 3: Yes. My mother said those words. I never said that to Stephanie. [01:06:41] Speaker 2: Fair. So you are, it says 15. Kevin was suicidal. Your mom utilized and mentioned that. This is all in connection with the conspiracy for murder. That Tracy took advantage of Kevin's mental issues in relation to hurting Matt. Fair to say? Yes. And then, I guess, I don't know if you hope for this or what, that Kevin could just commit suicide. [01:07:20] Speaker 3: No, I would never hope for that. [01:07:23] Speaker 2: And yet, discussions about manipulating Kevin's mental state to include that after he did something that Tracy and you would like to see happen, Tracy expressed that maybe he'd just commit suicide. [01:07:37] Speaker 3: That's what this means, right? She said it more as a joke. And she said it. It made me sad that she would say that. That's a joke, isn't it? [01:07:47] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:07:48] Speaker 2: Their mother would talk about her desire to help you get Matt killed to the effect that she could manipulate her son, especially since he's suicidal. That's kind of morbid, isn't it? It is very morbid. Then we get to paragraph 16, which has to do with using the air tagged trace, right? Yes. We've already discussed, at least in your mind, yours, and Tara Lynn's mind. And once again, Tara Lynn is never in on this idea of hurting Matt. Correct. You agree, Tara Lynn is a good person. She would not engage in helping you hurt Matt. Correct. And she could only know about Matt and what Matt does or says to you or abuses you from you, right? I sent her voice recordings. But you recorded Matt when he was explosive, right? Yes. And you also sent Tara Lynn communications that were from Matt that seemed abusive, right? Yes. We have some of them in the trial. I think we're going to maybe introduce their thumbnails in some of the exhibits that you had where you're saying, look what Matt's saying. You're stoking this situation with Tara Lynn about what Matt is doing and how he treats you, right? [01:09:25] Speaker 3: Define stoking. [01:09:28] Speaker 2: You are presenting your stuff that's inflammatory. [01:09:32] Speaker 3: Inflammatory? [01:09:33] Speaker 2: Yes. [01:09:34] Speaker 3: Define inflammatory. [01:09:35] Speaker 2: Flame stoking. You might get an emotional reaction out of the person you're sharing it with. Yes. Got that reaction. Tara Lynn reacted. She did. [01:09:49] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. [01:09:51] Speaker 2: Anyway, we're getting to what happened. Air tag paragraph 16. Tracy instructed Catherine to stay upstairs. Don't come down when he arrived. Don't come down when he arrived. The plan was either Kevin or Tracy if needed would shoot Matt with the gun and place the knife in his hand to sell the story of Matt being the aggressor, right? Correct. Right. Kevin or Tracy. We're going to return to this number of times. It's Tracy telling you that either she'll kill him or Kevin will. Yes. But there is no time that she ever told you Kevin's in on doing, right? She told me yes that Kevin was willing to do it. So the fact that you have repeated what we'll get to have told the government that Tracy never told you what she did and talked about with Kevin is now changing at the trial? [01:10:58] Speaker 3: I don't think that she did tell me that she and Kevin had a discussion and that if Kevin didn't want to do it, she would do it. [01:11:12] Speaker 2: Now that's not what this says, right? She doesn't say this proper never says that Tracy told you anything she talked to Kevin about. Can we agree on that? [01:11:21] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:11:22] Speaker 2: All right. Seventeen talks about how you've already said. Matt didn't bring that knife. Correct? You've been shown that knife. Because she and Tracy had the knife prior to Matt's arrival that day. And Tracy, Tracy would put, likely put the knife in Matt's hand. [01:11:50] Speaker 3: Right? I do not know who put the knife in his hand. I'm aware. Because I was upstairs. You don't know. You're right. [01:11:57] Speaker 2: You told the government that you're understanding from communicating with Tracy. It's only Tracy. You've never communicated with Kevin on the subject. That Tracy would put the knife in his hand. Yes. Doesn't say Kevin. Doesn't say Tracy and Kevin. It just says Tracy, right? Yes. And then here's the final paragraph. Catherine never discussed any details about shooting Matt with Tracy and Kevin. [01:12:29] Speaker ?: Matt? [01:12:30] Speaker 2: Yes. The end is italicized. The point is you're never talking about this plan with Tracy and Kevin at the same time. Right? Yes. You thought long. You thought hard. About trying to get a deal that could save all of this time in prison for you. What the government would need and want to hear. And you said, among the things we just discovered, that you, Catherine, never discussed any details about shooting Matt. With Tracy and Kevin together. Never. Right? [01:13:14] Speaker 3: That's what it says, yes. [01:13:16] Speaker 2: Well, and that's what you caused to be given in a way of truthful information to the government. The very first time, right? [01:13:23] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:13:24] Speaker 2: And you thought long. You thought hard. You had discussions with your lawyer. About making sure that the information you give to the government would be relevant and material to the charges. That they're bringing not only against you, but Kevin. [01:13:37] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:13:38] Speaker 2: And your mother. Yes. Let's get to the other point I made. And I apologize to you and everyone in the room if I seem to be belaboring this. The next line is Tracy, your mother, would not, wouldn't, discuss the details with you, only that there was a plan going on and that she, Tracy, would speak to Kevin about the details. Right? Yes. That's what that says. Yes. That's because of what you knew. [01:14:14] Speaker 3: Right? [01:14:15] Speaker 2: Yes. That's because that's what happened. [01:14:17] Speaker ?: Right? [01:14:18] Speaker 2: She distanced you and Kevin. She kept you on prongs of her plan. I'll talk to Kevin. I'm not going to tell you what I'm talking to him about. But here, let's talk about our plan. You'll lure him in, et cetera. We've heard what your plan, your guys' plan ended up being. Never you and Kevin together. Tracy's in there directing the conversation. You have no closure with Kevin on it. You don't know what she's telling him. Correct. That's what you meant to say here, right? Yeah. Well, we're already establishing an exhibit, one, that the first point of getting this deal was that, according to the prosecutors, it had to be truthful. Right? Yes. Well, here's what happened. You received an immunity letter, right? Yes, it did. And then the prosecutor who said what you said, what we just went over had to be truthful, arranged to have you interviewed, right? [01:15:30] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:15:37] Speaker 2: So, having presumably determined that that proper was truthful, they set up the interview, and I think it is, on June, in June. June 12th, you all get together in the room, and you have this discussion in this interview with the prosecutors, and certainly, they are free in that interview to ask you any question they want, right? Yes. [01:16:08] Speaker ?: Yes. You told them that you'd be truthful. [01:16:08] Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. [01:16:10] Speaker ?: You understood that they're going to have to believe it for you to get your deal still, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. You understood that they're going to have to believe it for you to get your deal still, right? [01:16:12] Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. They are free in that interview to ask you any question they want, right? Yes. You told them that you'd be truthful? [01:16:30] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:16:30] Speaker 2: You understood that they're going to have to believe it for you to get your deal still, right? [01:16:35] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:16:41] Speaker 2: Let's run through what is or isn't said in that. You're going to interview to get the deal. I'm going to focus on questions that had to do with Kevin, but also what you said about Tracy being the mastermind. Okay. [01:17:30] Speaker 1: Okay. [01:17:35] Speaker 2: Having given the proper that we just went over, when you get to the subject, speaking with Detective Nordean and the prosecutor. You again reiterated to the prosecutors. You again reiterated to the prosecutors this notion that you don't know that there were any conversations with Kevin about this plan, right? [01:18:35] Speaker 3: I was only present for the one after sushi. [01:18:38] Speaker 2: Well, you agree as you sit here today, you've never said there was a good, we've already established you said there wasn't any conversations in your profit letter. Do you remember telling the police when you had your, it must be truthful to get my deal meeting that there was never any meeting with Kevin? [01:18:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:19:08] Speaker 2: What you described about Kevin on that day, in fact, was that on the 12th, Kevin was in his room the whole time. You don't remember even seeing him. You remember that? Correct. This is what you told the government in the meeting you had, where you had to tell the truth to get your deal, right? [01:19:30] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:19:32] Speaker 2: By the way, we, this is now, you've had between the May offer letter, you've had a month to get ready to remember, to prepare, to give them all the information you have. Certainly do. Talk to about your plan to murder your husband. And who was involved in what happened? You've had all that time to prepare for the meeting, right? [01:20:03] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:20:04] Speaker 2: And at this point in time, you've had a whole long time to, since you were arrested and charged with this crime, right? [01:20:12] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:20:17] Speaker 2: And again, you reiterated to the police, at least, this notion that your mother went to sushi with Kevin, right? Remember that subject came out? [01:20:42] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:20:42] Speaker 2: But what you told them in this meeting is, you don't know what was said with sushi. I don't know what was said at sushi. You went there. You're right. And since you don't know what was said, not only do you not know because you didn't go, you don't know because your mom didn't tell you. [01:20:58] Speaker ?: Right. [01:20:59] Speaker 2: Mom never said anything. She, the belief was, there's this sushi meeting. Now, they went to sushi all the time, right? [01:21:08] Speaker 3: I don't know. [01:21:12] Speaker 2: And they go have lunch. You're not there. Your mom doesn't tell you what was said there. Can we agree that that's what you told the government? [01:21:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:21:20] Speaker 2: Flatly said to the government that she went there where she could have a private conversation without involving you. [01:21:31] Speaker 3: Right. [01:21:32] Speaker 2: Your whole impression of the thing is your mom is setting them a time. She can talk to Kevin. And you won't know anything about what was said or done. [01:21:41] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:21:42] Speaker 2: I think you told this jury after, if you saw Kevin, we're going to get to timelines. I don't, I don't know, you know, which one is accurate, but if you ever saw him after the meeting, he didn't seem to be a changed person. He didn't seem to be affected. He didn't seem to have a mood change or anything like that, right? [01:22:00] Speaker 3: No. [01:22:02] Speaker 2: This theory, hey, you want to be involved in a murder? And he supposedly was told that and came home and didn't have a change in affect or anything? [01:22:12] Speaker 3: I don't think that's when he was first informed of it. [01:22:23] Speaker 2: You also told him that, as you've said, Kevin is not around where changes are made downstairs with the toys being moved, screen being changed and things like that. Kevin's not down there. [01:22:35] Speaker 3: I don't know where Kevin was. [01:22:37] Speaker 2: Well, you know he wasn't down there because you were down there doing all that, right? [01:22:41] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:22:42] Speaker 2: And he was not there. [01:22:43] Speaker 3: I didn't see him. [01:22:45] Speaker 2: So I didn't ask you if you knew where he was. I just asked you that you can confirm that he's not present when all these preparations are being made. Right? Yes. He doesn't know why you might want to clean up toys, why you might want to put toys away. [01:23:03] Speaker 3: He knows why it was done. [01:23:05] Speaker 2: I know that's your assertion. We've established. I'm walking through what you have told the government before. Not the team you're on now. So that's how you describe anything having to do with sushi. And you said to the government also that I thought it would be a good idea to have him killed. You told them that it was that day, right? [01:23:43] Speaker 3: I don't recall. [01:23:45] Speaker 2: There are some transcripts up there. I have labeled them one, two, and three, and four. These are transcripts of the recording of the things that you said to the government. [01:24:02] Speaker 3: You're meaning I have them in front of me? Oh, these ones here. Okay. [01:24:19] Speaker 2: Sorry, when I said that's not a problem, I'm pointing to the fact that they are clipped together. This person is in custody. I want to make sure it was okay with security. On page 35, just look at that to yourself. [01:24:48] Speaker 1: What exhibit number is this again? [01:24:49] Speaker 2: It's not. It's just a transcript of a refreshment, Your Honor. We will not be seeking to admit it. So, and I'll be a little clearer for the record, if you'd like, the transcript of the first segment of the June 12th debriefing, we'll call it. [01:25:08] Speaker ?: Thank you. [01:25:10] Speaker 1: It's on page 35. [01:25:12] Speaker 2: Yes. These lines are not. Numbered. But as you look through that, please refresh your recollection about what you told them about when you thought it would be a good idea. Are you finished? [01:25:50] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:25:51] Speaker 2: Told them, you thought the first time you thought it would be a good idea would be that day it happened. Agreed? [01:26:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:26:08] Speaker 2: I'm sorry that this is a little, a little bit tangential, but you went on to talk about your plan not to go back. And even told them it was because you were, on page 36, fearful for your life, from the first day you got to Utah, you scared shitless that Matt was going to come and hurt you. [01:26:41] Speaker 3: Absolutely. [01:26:43] Speaker 2: And this, again, is a narrative that your family knew, right? [01:26:46] Speaker 3: Yes. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. [01:26:48] Speaker ?: And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. And this is a narrative that you're going to be able to do. [01:27:21] Speaker 2: Having established that in your proffer and in these interviews. You never told the government. You had some meeting and talked about anything with Kevin. Fair to say that didn't get fleshed out in the questioning with them. They never got a chance to ask you really when. Under what circumstances. Who was there. What was said. That's never been asked of you by the government. Because you never told them. That that supposedly happened. Fair to say. Yes. And by having not talked to them about it. Certainly it's not in any transcript that we've seen. Agreed? Agreed. When talking about. Kevin though. [01:28:08] Speaker ?: And kind of his role. Back a little bit about his family. But. [01:28:10] Speaker 2: Since we're going through what you said about the twelve. You. [01:28:15] Speaker ?: You. [01:28:15] Speaker 2: You. You did. Tell the government. And. And. Describe. [01:28:21] Speaker ?: That in terms of this. Atmosphere of fear. And. You. You. You. You did. Tell the government. And. And. Describe. [01:28:32] Speaker 2: That in terms of this. Atmosphere of fear and abuse. [01:28:36] Speaker ?: And things that you had proliferated through this family. Your family. That. Sometimes it would come up that you might need protection. [01:28:38] Speaker 2: Yes. We saw some texts. I'm not going to pull them up. Largely because of my incompetence. To do so. But. [01:28:44] Speaker ?: We. We saw some texts. I'm not going to pull them up. Largely because of my incompetence. To do so. But. We saw some texts. [01:28:50] Speaker 2: I'm not going to pull them up. Largely because of my incompetence. To do so. But. your family that sometimes it would come up that you might need protection yes we saw some texts I'm not gonna pull them up largely because of my incompetence to do so but sometimes there was some discussion about hey if he comes out Tim yes Kevin - yes even on the time when Kevin went and got some fireworks I think some pot from Wyoming or from Nevada to bring back to you about I can get back by tomorrow that Kevin is saying that in those texts he's saying I could get back tomorrow if Matt comes there right yes and you described even in the government that when he said that it was a method of protection it was if Matt comes out Kevin said would protect him from Matt a male figure who could stand up to another strong male that's how you described Kevin's dynamic in this atmosphere of cracked fear that you have created in your mother you you you know even reiterated it later in strictly in connection with what you had built up in the atmosphere of fear and anxiety and abuse you said specifically to Detective Nordean about when the discussion of your fear came up Kevin would say I'll protect you right? Yes. So apparently the third consideration, the third prong of the plea bargain to you that you truthfully answer questions, truthfully and you're not the one who deems that they're truthful you knew that, right? Yes. You understood that the government would have to believe it, right? Yes. If they didn't believe it you wouldn't get your deal, right? Correct. But you got your deal right? Still contingent on this. You believe you still have to perform here in this trial for them, but you got your deal, you pled, you've been sentenced, right? Yes. Certainly you must have thought, well they believed it we set up a change of plea date we're going to go over and we're going to plead guilty before before his honor this very court yes to engage in the practice of pleading guilty a form is created called statement of a defendant in support of a guilty plea and certificate of counsel right? We call it plea form I don't know what you'll ever call it with you I'm going to show it to you so you can see sorry [01:32:53] Speaker 1: with that recess Mr. Williams back to you [01:32:56] Speaker 2: Thank you, Your Honor Kate, when we were finishing up we were talking about where you were in the thank you where you were in the process of effectuating getting your plea bargain and after you interviewed in June with prosecutors and case agent Nordean you then had to put together paperwork for the court and enter your pleas of guilty right? Yes We talked about a document it's called the statement of defendant in support of guilty plea and certificate of counsel remember when I brought that up? Yes That's actually the reason I brought one up to show you the cover of because there's only part of these documents that are now admitted into evidence or change of plea that is really relevant to what we're going to talk about next okay? Okay And that is that these documents contain a section where the facts are laid out of the crimes you committed and you have to agree that they're true is that your understanding? Yes And that was your understanding with the process ultimately and your plea where you're going to get your plea bargained right? Yes Okay so in the process of the crimes act there was a draft that was made in that document and in particular the facts that you're going to admit doing in that document right? Yes and then ultimately there were some modifications to the facts that were made and were used in the final document that his honor was provided right? I believe so Okay and we've established that that occurred between that you went over the facts in the draft document and then of course you went over the facts in the final document that you stood before the court and admitted right? Yes I just want to put those side by side there are exhibits six and seven six being the draft seven being the final and then publish them Now along those lines by the way you go over the draft with your attorney and of course you went over the final with your attorney but your understanding was that the final draft of the final document and the changes that were made in that document were made by the government right? [01:35:53] Speaker 3: I don't know who made the changes [01:35:55] Speaker 2: You weren't part of making changes right? you were just presented in the final as the one you were going to come to court and utilize fair to say? [01:36:07] Speaker 3: Yes [01:36:08] Speaker 2: So the draft you went over with your attorney is on the left and the final draft which we can't mark up because we are technologically challenged and it is a scan document out of the court record Let's talk about some facts some key facts that changed or got modified first one for instance when you're talking in the first admission of facts it says you see some highlight that you moved to Utah to live with your mother Tracy Grist and brother Kevin Ellis Catherine Rustelli left Matthew Rustelli for marital issues and abuse see that? Yes That's the one you went over with your lawyer right? Yes However when we look over to the right right there at the end of the first paragraph it's been changed says she left the county to live with her mother Tracy Grist and her brother Kevin Ellis Catherine left Matthew due to marital issues right? Yes So this draft that you agreed to that had abuse in the one that you used with the state at the change of police took abuse out right? Yes And a little other changes and I don't want to be picky about it but your first draft is that Tracy Grist admitted Tracy Grist your mother to Catherine that she would arrange Tracy would arrange to have Matthew killed if he came if it came to it right? Yes And then down here in the middle of the right hand version if it came to it is taken out right? [01:38:04] Speaker 3: Yes [01:38:04] Speaker 2: You've arranged to have Matthew harmed or killed period [01:38:06] Speaker 3: Yes [01:38:08] Speaker 2: In the original draft it said Tracy would bring up the topic with you of Matthew and that either she Tracy or Kevin would do it right? [01:38:22] Speaker ?: Yes [01:38:22] Speaker 2: You've already testified that on a number of occasions about the fact that Tracy would commonly tell you from her position that she might do it or Kevin would do it right? [01:38:41] Speaker 3: Yes [01:38:41] Speaker 2: I'm not sure why but it also has the modification that while in Utah Catherine became concerned you became concerned that Matthew would come to Utah and get her and her children at some point whereas as on the right it's changed so that you became aware right? Yes Later in the paragraph on the version on the left the first version is Catherine's intent was to return to California under those circumstances except for that's not in the version on the right it was circumstances right? [01:39:27] Speaker 3: Right [01:39:27] Speaker 2: Down at bottom Tracy talked to Kevin suffering from depression and suicide so he could shoot Matthew and possibly Matthew would commit suicide we just dealt with that this manipulation that you admit that Tracy it sounds like maybe almost perseverated that she could manipulate Kevin and then Kevin would kill himself that's right here in the facts of the first version of a plea document to tell the judge what happened right? [01:40:01] Speaker 3: Yes [01:40:01] Speaker 2: It is not anywhere in the statement that you ended up utilizing at your change of plea Is it? [01:40:14] Speaker 3: No [01:40:15] Speaker 2: Now let's go to this knife pudding knife issue this central feature of state case about putting a knife into the hand of Matthew when he was shot Now the only person you ever talked to about that was Tracy right? Yes And you saw the knife and Tracy talked about it right? Yes In that Tracy would put the knife in his hand to make it look like self-defense yes We just went over that all your statements and all your proffers and everything it's Tracy putting it in Tracy would put the knife in Tracy would do it this stuff with the knife right? Yes but in the final version again we didn't have a highlighted I'm sorry down at the bottom of page two very bottom starting in the line second to last line that's on this subject it's been modified to say and the two Tracy and Kevin planted the knife right yes so they modified this statement from what had always been said that Tracy's idea Tracy would put the knife in to get you to admit here in this final one to the judge some sort of Tracy and Kevin working together to put the knife in right yes which you have admitted you couldn't possibly know what was going on with placing a knife you were upstairs yes and you have admitted you've never been told who would do it except for Tracy the only one who's ever said to you would do something with the knife was Tracy and now you're in a final statement to the judge going ahead and then this first version over here on the left that you put together again in terms of Kevin or anything relating to Kevin it doesn't say anything about some lunch trip to get sushi that was part of all of this it's not in the facts that you went over with your lawyer and decided to put in a statement to the judge and yet in the final version second to last paragraph starting of it all of a sudden it's in there furthermore throughout the day Kevin was aware that Tracy went to lunch Catherine I'm sorry you were aware that Kevin went to lunch and she believed it was plans to do something right [01:43:27] Speaker 3: yes [01:43:28] Speaker 2: your belief in something that you just told this jury you weren't talked to about [01:43:33] Speaker 3: I was talked to about what happened at that [01:43:36] Speaker 2: you've admitted that until today you've always told people that you weren't talked to about it right yeah and that's all up to this point the time that this is being presented to the judge to be true and you're going to agree to it it's modified form you still had never said you were talked to about the sushi lunch right yes those modifications that were made were all about wrapping Kevin in right [01:44:09] Speaker 3: yes [01:44:12] Speaker 2: so and look you stood before the judge you have no reason to believe the judge had any knowledge about the fact that you hadn't said these things in your interview but you did stand for the judge in fairness were asked if these are true and said yes right [01:44:33] Speaker 3: yes [01:44:33] Speaker 2: something else happened after you need your plea before you're sentenced you are engaged with you're who is someone who's going to write a report to the judge where they collect information about you and finances who your family is ask a bunch of questions in a packet right [01:45:15] Speaker 3: correct [01:45:16] Speaker 2: and they have an interview with you correct [01:45:18] Speaker 3: yes [01:45:18] Speaker 2: and in both those circumstances they give you a sheet to write down defendant's statement of the offense right yes and that happened here you were given a piece of paper where you would write your version of the offense [01:45:36] Speaker 3: yes [01:45:39] Speaker 2: now that's what's been admitted as defendants for excuse me for a moment judge [01:45:56] Speaker 1: did you intend to present the one with handwritten notations on it yeah I can make a record about that why don't we do that please I don't believe that was that's not that's [01:46:29] Speaker 2: correct I was going to get it I was going to make a record of that [01:46:32] Speaker 1: make a record of that and then after you make the record of it I'll instruct the jury not to consider that in the deliberations please go ahead [01:46:39] Speaker 2: so we've admitted exhibit four and lunch is coming lunch is coming [01:46:55] Speaker ?: coming [01:46:55] Speaker 2: and that's the statement you wrote now no one helped you fill that out did they [01:47:02] Speaker 3: I had a cellmate who helped me so you had a cellmate that you talked to about this yes [01:47:13] Speaker 2: did you ever tell the government that you had a cellmate that might be a witness yes I did you did you've told the government that you had a cellmate that you talked about your case I told Mike Mike Brown okay you're a lawyer yes but you never made it known to the prosecutors that there's a witness out there that you've made statements to about this case [01:47:37] Speaker 3: I didn't know that was relevant [01:47:38] Speaker 2: I didn't ask you why I just want to establish that there's a witness out there somewhere that has your statements about this case that was made to her I presume [01:47:49] Speaker 4: yes [01:47:50] Speaker 2: a witness that could be interviewed and we could find out whether or not what you told her is the same thing you're telling the jury right correct well we'll get into it since we don't know who that is I will though go over this statement so you have a jail cellie who's helping you but you write this without help from your lawyer is that fair [01:48:16] Speaker 3: correct [01:48:17] Speaker 2: and let's go over it when you wrote this letter it's to be presented to the judge yes it's going to go in a packet it's going to go in a report and your understanding is going to be sentencing correct yes did you intend to lie to the judge [01:48:39] Speaker 3: no [01:48:39] Speaker 2: then let's talk about what you put in the statement you left and ran away from California I didn't make the record did I this statement on page one has some writing that says arrested 10-29-24 do you see that yes and it has some writing that says Laney's Brent and Caitlin home next to I can't I don't know what the next three scratches are home with bullet see that there's nothing else you didn't write that right [01:49:27] Speaker 3: no I did not [01:49:27] Speaker 2: you don't know who did [01:49:28] Speaker 3: the APMP officer did [01:49:31] Speaker 2: in your presence [01:49:32] Speaker 3: yes okay [01:49:33] Speaker 2: we've established all right [01:49:35] Speaker 1: fair enough [01:49:36] Speaker 2: you tell the court in this letter that you left and ran away from California on 620 to get away from and what you tell the court outstanding all the evidence we had that you were just didn't like Matt you hated your life that you were a long-term abusive husband Matt that's what you tell the court right yes [01:50:00] Speaker 1: before you go further because that was written by APMP I'm going to instruct the jury that's not evidence so disregard those handwritten statements [01:50:09] Speaker 2: thank you your honor then you go on to explain that you stated your mother she's aware of your problems which you've already established is the abuse problems that she you were followed to Utah that she and or Kevin would harm or kill Matt we've already established that even Kevin said he would protect you right yes Tim will protect you right yes and unfortunately we've heard this jury has heard these chilling communications conversations with Matt where you're literally cooing him and luring him into that house where you think he's going to be shot to death right [01:50:58] Speaker 3: yes [01:50:59] Speaker 2: I thought it was a good idea and unfortunately I went along with it so that means it was Tracy's idea and you went along with it right [01:51:12] Speaker 3: yes sorry [01:51:23] Speaker 2: until that night you tell you write in this in this letter this communication to the court around five o'clock you approached your mom and told her I didn't want to go through with it anymore right yes now five is way before you you've made all those chilling communications to Matt right [01:51:52] Speaker 3: yes [01:51:53] Speaker 2: she your mother looked you straight in the eye and said I don't care I'm going to do it anyway right [01:52:06] Speaker 3: yes [01:52:07] Speaker 2: and you just described that you're devastated and shocked and crushed again this is all before those calls that we heard right is that correct [01:52:20] Speaker 3: the calls were at noon this is 5 p.m [01:52:24] Speaker 2: you called him and said you put the after 5 p.m you told him door will be unlocked here's the gate key put cardboard out no need to knock described it those were all we heard the tone of voice you had to encourage him that he would not be in danger that you were ready to go he could come in the house and you described you did that all to make sure he'd get in there to get killed right yes that all happened after 5 [01:52:50] Speaker 4: right your honor at this point I just object to mischaracterization of the evidence I don't think it's intentional we went through the call log the date the time of those first two calls and they were prior to 5 p.m [01:53:03] Speaker 2: yep and the jury can decide and I if I'm wrong about anything in terms of the timing of which calls let's just establish this some of those calls and some of the texts that were made to Matthew with the intention to lure him were after 5 o'clock right yes you admit you could have done things you could have just sent a text hey Matt turn around let's just meet at the hotel right yes I don't know what mom's told you Kevin but Matt's not dangerous and make sure you don't harm him you could have done that [01:53:48] Speaker 3: I could have [01:53:51] Speaker 2: because one thing you couldn't do is get your mom off the idea she told you right in the eye it's gonna happen I'm gonna do it anyway right yes you don't know what she's told Kevin about what to expect when Matt comes in that door right [01:54:07] Speaker 3: correct [01:54:09] Speaker 2: between 5 and 9 you were taking care of your kids making them dinner giving them a bath reading books getting them ready to go for bed they went to sleep at 8.30 right yes so all this is happening downstairs I mean the kitchen to cook is downstairs yes all the activities you're describing are downstairs and the downstairs area is where the kitchen dining room entryway into the home is where Matt came in right [01:54:48] Speaker 3: yes [01:54:49] Speaker 2: and then your mom was getting ready for the arrival we've already talked about moving the toys and things that you helped her do it right [01:55:01] Speaker 3: yes [01:55:02] Speaker 2: and that Kevin wasn't around at the time right yes and that this helps us with that because you say I don't recall seeing Kevin around the house between 3 and 9 correct yes you were downstairs again you put a timeline that extends it to 9 and 9.30 also being downstairs after you put the kids to bed [01:55:28] Speaker 3: yes [01:55:29] Speaker 2: and Kevin wasn't around correct and then that's when you went upstairs your mom said don't come down your understanding and belief was plan was still in place her plan to make sure he got shot somehow her or Kevin and did so and you heard the shots and you say you you thought you heard Matt say out right [01:56:00] Speaker 3: yes [01:56:02] Speaker 2: then you write a paragraph how sad makes you feel that you can contribute it to cutting Matt's life short the hurt and the children the hurt that you have caused et cetera [01:56:18] Speaker 3: yes [01:56:19] Speaker 2: and again it says since the incident happened the least you could do for Matt but in reality you didn't do any of this for Matt until you sought a plea bargain he didn't tell your story until you were in the plea bargain process [01:56:36] Speaker 3: right the plea was not a driving factor [01:56:41] Speaker 2: we can hear you say what was or wasn't but I'm establishing that whatever your concern and your heartbreak and everything you never came forward with all that heartbreak and just told your story until you were getting a plea bargain for right no I'll leave it at that and the other thing you returned to as the cause of this the cause of what you did down at the bottom of that paragraph is that you shouldn't ignore domestic violence red flags right continue to blame what you did on Matt's domestic violence right yes that the state spent hours trying to show that there's no evidence of correct and then the prosecutors having seen this as part of sentencing set up another meeting to talk to you right don't recall prison zoom call in December yes so they had the chance having seen this document having compared it to your interviews that you got for your truthful cooperation had the chance to ask you any questions they wanted to yes and among the relevant things for this trial is you confirmed again that Kevin wasn't around when the planning happened right [01:59:04] Speaker 3: yes [01:59:05] Speaker 2: and you remember that that interview where the prosecutors had the chance to follow up with you with any questions they want lasted like 20 minutes [01:59:29] Speaker 3: I don't recall how long it lasted seemed close give or take [01:59:35] Speaker 2: the transcript is 16 pages long would that help refresh memory [01:59:40] Speaker 3: I never saw the transcript [01:59:42] Speaker 2: as we have talked about your family your sisters especially Tara Lynn and Rachel who sort of come up more than Rory and Jacob in this case so far [02:00:18] Speaker 3: yes [02:00:19] Speaker 2: Rory established this sort of atmosphere that they were led to believe was happening and they were getting information about it I mean it's fair to say that when they say they were worried that Matt was unpredictable they were concerned when he came out and that they thought it was valuable to know where he was and when he was arriving it was your safety they were concerned about yes again again the artifice the plan I mean you even fooled your own family didn't you [02:01:03] Speaker 3: no I wouldn't say that [02:01:06] Speaker 2: you were calling Kevin a hero after the fact Kevin was referred to as a hero you remember that yes certainly not a hero if he's part of the plan is he that's a crime that's murder that would have been him helping you murder somebody no hero in that right yes if he's a protector he was someone who was put in the place to protect you from a guy that was led to believe was dangerous and abusive when he sounds like he wasn't and does thinking he needs to protect you or himself or the house then he'd be hero right [02:01:58] Speaker 3: yes [02:02:00] Speaker 2: so even after the fact your poor family believed until you made your plea bargain as far as you understand from communications with your family that if things were as you had said [02:02:17] Speaker 3: that [02:02:20] Speaker 2: he was a hero for protecting you right [02:02:22] Speaker 3: yes along the [02:02:45] Speaker 2: along the lines of what your family shares their information your family includes Kevin information that may have been given and provided and maybe not from their own experiences with Matt and knowledge about things that went on in your life with Matt is that Matt had guns right I'm sorry Matt had guns yes [02:03:15] Speaker ?: yes [02:03:15] Speaker 2: he did and that was common knowledge yes and there's nothing wrong with that right you lived in a rural area yes we all have a second amendment right to have guns yes mom had one yes you knew and the family all knew by the way that she had gotten that to protect her own self from the possibility of a crazy boyfriend she had a couple years before right [02:03:44] Speaker 3: I was under the impression that it was for COVID I don't know why she actually got it [02:03:51] Speaker 2: anyways years ago she got it for herself [02:03:54] Speaker 3: yes [02:03:55] Speaker 2: it didn't have anything to do with Kevin right [02:03:57] Speaker 3: correct [02:03:58] Speaker 2: but this knowledge of the person and the atmosphere that you had created as a scary guy he's an alcoholic who's on his way to Utah also as a person that could have a gun right yes maybe probably would bring a gun right not to be dangerous but for all the right reasons we have guns [02:04:21] Speaker 4: right I'm an object [02:04:24] Speaker 2: that's fair that calls that's fair [02:04:27] Speaker 1: I'll instruct the jury to disregard that last statement [02:04:30] Speaker 2: it was mine for the record I don't think but sorry and then again there's this talk about the fact that Matt got attacked by a dog right yes and he shot the dog it's a nasty attack it sounds like that he suffered punctured his arm and hand he got injured right [02:04:55] Speaker 3: yes he did [02:04:56] Speaker 2: and I don't know if there's talk do you remember any other discussion about Matt showing the gun to members of your family when they were at your house [02:05:11] Speaker 3: I remember that yes [02:05:15] Speaker 1: that was yes [02:05:18] Speaker 3: yes [02:05:19] Speaker 2: oh you made a comment at the testimony yesterday let's go back to the 12th let's go back to Matt into the house by you by the way you're not with Kevin when you're sending all these transmissions to Matt right [02:05:42] Speaker 3: no [02:05:43] Speaker 2: you're not with Kevin when you're calling him into this house to be killed right [02:05:47] Speaker 3: right [02:05:48] Speaker 2: you're not with Kevin when you're sending the text of gate keys when you're sending the text of cardboard door unlocked Kevin's not around [02:06:03] Speaker 3: no he's not [02:06:04] Speaker 2: after [02:06:11] Speaker ?: you heard [02:06:15] Speaker 2: you heard the shots you spoke yesterday that there was this time frame we established and you're not in court for the whole trial you don't know what the jury's seen which is not a lot except for opening statements which are not evidence but this time frame between when we know when Matt showed up because we had the doorbell camera right yes even though you didn't see any of this in trial you've seen what's called discovery the evidence in your case the reports as you admitted transcripts of prior testimony of people and things like that right [02:07:02] Speaker 3: transcripts I've not seen physical evidence I was never showed pictures or audio [02:07:08] Speaker 2: okay transcripts and hearings in which all those things were talked about though right [02:07:13] Speaker 3: right [02:07:13] Speaker 2: right so you knew that there's an arrival time of 10 you knew that there's a 911 call when it happened which was minutes later [02:07:22] Speaker 3: yes [02:07:23] Speaker 2: almost 10 when your mom called right yes and the police arriving and you and you made some statement to the effect of there was some purpose in waiting 15 minutes what'd you say to to make a story plausible I mean do you remember saying that yes what story plausible but what you need I mean it does sound to me like for someone who for a situation that has been pre-planned scripted set up to be an ambush there's plenty of time to talk to Kevin before the police get there right no there's 10 minutes what did you mean when you said we needed to delay calling 911 so we could make our story plausible you never said that you guys talked about what the story's going to be and you didn't right you didn't you didn't talk to Kevin about what to do now that a shooting happened and an ice been placed in the end you never talked to Kevin anything after that about what he should do or say right so you never talked to him about the plan before and whatever you're talking about needing time to make things sound plausible in the time between the shooting and the police arrival you're not part of right [02:09:02] Speaker 3: restate your question [02:09:06] Speaker 2: you're not part of whatever happened between the shooting and when the police arrived in terms of what you described as making a story that would be plausible yesterday you said that yes so the only people that would be involved in making a story that was plausible in that period of time would be Kevin and Tracy right correct making a story that would seem plausible on something that was already pre-planned and scripted that's when they would be doing it right [02:09:35] Speaker 3: yes all right [02:09:39] Speaker 2: just a moment thank you very much your I just have a few more questions on a subject we were kind of talking about at the end okay okay this is a period of time that you don't know about what was happening 930 to 10 on the 12th that night of the shooting right yes so you don't know what was going on downstairs between your mom and Kevin or any other activity that was going on because you were upstairs for that half hour in fairness you don't know what was going on downstairs after the shooting until the police got there either correct let me talk about a few things in this case that might apply Kevin used a gun that was your mother's gun for the shooting right correct he shot with your mother's gun yes your mother's gun did you know I think you knew that she normally kept it up on a shelf in the garage or did you I don't know exactly where she kept it so even though there was talk about for I don't know whether it's weeks days anymore but there's talk about your or Kevin would shoot Matt that you didn't know about where [02:11:26] Speaker 3: her gun was I knew she used to keep it under her bed but when we moved in when we came to stay with her she moved it so it wouldn't be in reach of the children [02:11:37] Speaker 2: so you don't know how Kevin ended up getting that gun that night [02:11:41] Speaker 3: no I don't [02:11:43] Speaker 2: whether or not and how Tracy might have gotten the gun and given it to him or talked to her about it or talked to its use or anything like that correct [02:11:51] Speaker 4: I'm sorry can we just clarify that answer I didn't hear correct [02:11:57] Speaker 1: either of [02:12:02] Speaker 2: them I mean we just do not know from you as a witness despite all the planning that you talked about how Kevin ended up with a gun you weren't present you don't know what was said or done by Tracy or Kevin right correct so if Tracy is done she certainly could have provided it to Kevin right sure let's talk about another feature of the case Kevin it turns out had used cocaine some time prior to the shooting right [02:12:45] Speaker 3: I had no knowledge of it until I saw it in the police report [02:12:49] Speaker 2: that's going to be [02:12:50] Speaker 3: my point [02:12:51] Speaker 2: you didn't know Kevin to be a cocaine user right [02:12:55] Speaker 3: I had no idea [02:12:56] Speaker 2: Kevin didn't like pot no he did not and even though we saw in those text messages and stuff that I mean you did like pot right yes I did you smoked daily yes I did and there was those references in the text message when he was coming back from Wyoming that he was going to bring some for you right yes with the fireworks that were going to be used on the 4th of July I think July 2nd this all happened but at any rate right around that time right so for three weeks you'd been your room is to Kevin's right in her house in your mom's house [02:13:39] Speaker 3: yes so master bedroom bathroom and then Kevin's room [02:13:43] Speaker 2: and so you learn from the police report not from observing anything about Kevin that he used cocaine yes now that night that is right at any point but I mean you learned that he had used apparently used it that night yes matter of fact just left out the cocaine and the method by which he ingested it sitting in his room for the police report too right yes so I guess if you didn't know he was a user that night do you know whether your mother gave him cocaine [02:14:22] Speaker 3: no I don't know where he got the cocaine from nothing [02:14:28] Speaker 2: for redirect all right [02:14:39] Speaker 4: okay we'll be we'll be pretty quick so I'll follow up on a few topics with you if that's all right [02:14:56] Speaker 3: absolutely [02:14:57] Speaker 4: the first thing I want to talk about was this idea of Kevin's mental health yes you read the statement in advance of plea where you talk about or where it's talked about his mental health and being suicidal right correct when was that information presented when did you learn of that information [02:15:17] Speaker 3: I learned of Kevin being suicidal back in March 2024 [02:15:26] Speaker 4: was it your understanding that that was ongoing through July or was that a moment in time in March what was your understanding [02:15:34] Speaker 3: I didn't know if he was still suicidal or not [02:15:39] Speaker 4: it wasn't talked about when you were here in Utah [02:15:41] Speaker 3: no no he seemed fine and happy [02:15:45] Speaker 4: other than some depression and maybe some suicidal ideation does Kevin have any other mental health issues [02:15:52] Speaker 2: to your [02:15:55] Speaker 4: knowledge [02:15:56] Speaker 3: not to my knowledge no [02:16:00] Speaker 4: do you still have defense exhibits six and seven in front of you [02:16:12] Speaker 3: I do [02:16:13] Speaker 4: there's a lot of conversation about [02:16:22] Speaker 3: I actually don't think I have it six and seven defense is only two and five [02:16:31] Speaker 1: which ones [02:16:32] Speaker 4: just briefly these are what was admitted previously as defense exhibit six and seven do you recall a conversation you had a long conversation with mr. Williams about the changes that were made between the first draft and the last draft right yes would you please go to state defense exhibit six on page two [02:17:22] Speaker 3: what's the difference I don't see a difference between them [02:17:25] Speaker 4: yeah and I'll come and show you seven should say final at the top oh seven [02:17:34] Speaker 3: says final yes you want me to go to six yes [02:17:36] Speaker 4: please [02:17:36] Speaker 3: on page [02:17:37] Speaker 4: two [02:17:38] Speaker 3: oops sorry [02:17:41] Speaker 4: okay would you just please read that first line under admission of facts to support elements [02:17:48] Speaker 3: honor about July 12 2024 in Utah County Utah Catherine Restelli left her husband and cohabitant Matthew Restelli where [02:17:57] Speaker 4: that's that's sufficient [02:17:58] Speaker 3: okay [02:17:59] Speaker 4: did you leave California on July 12th [02:18:03] Speaker 3: no I did not [02:18:04] Speaker 4: it was in fact June 20th which we heard plenty of testimony about correct [02:18:08] Speaker 3: correct [02:18:08] Speaker 4: so the point is there's a draft correct right now to the final draft I'm not going to have you read anything is it your testimony today that is true [02:18:22] Speaker 3: yes okay [02:18:25] Speaker 4: on that final draft you were asked questions about your board eligibility date you were asked questions about your sentence and it's to summarize your testimony you don't know when you're getting out correct [02:18:46] Speaker 3: I have an idea but I do not have a real solid date [02:18:52] Speaker 4: a lot can change in the next several years yes and one thing I want to highlight could you please read the maximum maximum punishment on count three on that first page of the final draft [02:19:06] Speaker 3: five to life in prison commitment ten thousand dollar fine ninety percent surcharge and county and court security fee [02:19:16] Speaker 4: so while while you may have a hope or an expectation is it fair to say that you have a life max [02:19:23] Speaker 3: I do I do [02:19:25] Speaker 4: additionally what is your understanding about serving the terms consecutively or at the same time [02:19:37] Speaker 3: I'm not really sure I understand them entirely I know that two of my charges run together and one is separate [02:19:46] Speaker 4: so if the police statement said that third charge that first degree felony was consecutive would that be your understanding [02:19:54] Speaker 3: yes [02:19:55] Speaker 4: you testified to something new regarding a conversation you had with Kevin and your mother after sushi [02:20:15] Speaker 3: correct [02:20:16] Speaker 4: when did that happen [02:20:17] Speaker 3: that happened July 12th [02:20:22] Speaker 4: and how long after so we had actually talked yesterday about the returning home from sushi [02:20:28] Speaker 3: yes [02:20:29] Speaker 4: and how shortly after they returned home did you have this conversation [02:20:33] Speaker 3: right after they returned [02:20:35] Speaker 4: okay what happened [02:20:36] Speaker 3: we just discussed how the night was possibly going to go and what preparations were still needed to be done to get the house ready [02:20:48] Speaker 4: okay and who was present during this conversation [02:20:50] Speaker 3: me my mother and Kevin [02:20:53] Speaker 4: okay and it was discussed how the night might go [02:20:57] Speaker 3: correct [02:20:58] Speaker 4: what specifically was said [02:20:59] Speaker 3: that Kevin would be waiting for him downstairs that my mother would be downstairs as well I would be upstairs with my kids we'd put the toys away and I don't think that it was discussed about the blankets or the screen door the screen door was more of a spur-of-the-moment decision that my mother made [02:21:26] Speaker 4: and then what would happen [02:21:29] Speaker 3: and then what would happen yes that would be murdered that night [02:21:32] Speaker 4: so specifically what was said and who said it about what would happen [02:21:37] Speaker 3: my mother did a lot of the talking and me and Kevin [02:21:42] Speaker 4: were both present and did Kevin say anything during that conversation [02:21:45] Speaker 3: I don't recall [02:21:47] Speaker 4: did he express well you already said you don't recall did his body language change did his demeanor change [02:21:56] Speaker 3: no he seemed pretty relaxed and composed [02:22:01] Speaker 4: and this was after the sushi lunch that he had with your mother privately [02:22:05] Speaker 3: yes [02:22:05] Speaker 4: and you do not know what was discussed there outside of what was related to you in this conversation correct let's go from this idea of Matt and the abuse that you that you suffered okay we'll wake it up into two components when you say he would abuse you was that physical [02:22:34] Speaker 3: he hit me once before we were married but never after that it was more mental verbal financial sexual [02:22:48] Speaker 4: okay let's kind of break those up so not physical right never hit you [02:22:54] Speaker 3: in the course [02:22:56] Speaker 4: of your marriage [02:22:57] Speaker 3: correct [02:22:57] Speaker 4: would he kind of badger you absolutely blame you yes for circumstances of your lives yes would he accuse you of things yes would he get angry at you yes yell yes swear at you yes and is this what you mean and we'll get to the sexual in just a minute but is this what you mean by the abuse that he that you suffered [02:23:26] Speaker 3: yes [02:23:26] Speaker 4: and those are the things that you recorded correct yes those the berating the yelling that is what you sent to Tara Lynn and Tracy right yes nothing physical [02:23:43] Speaker 3: nothing physical [02:23:44] Speaker 4: let's talk about the sexual abuse what do you mean when you say sexual abuse [02:23:51] Speaker 3: he forced me to have sex with him [02:23:53] Speaker 4: forced you how [02:23:54] Speaker 3: if I did not have sex with him he would be in a bad mood and he would blame me at the fact that he was having a crappy day because I did not have sex with him [02:24:05] Speaker 4: did he ever physically force you to have sex with him [02:24:09] Speaker 3: he never held me down [02:24:11] Speaker 4: no it was just this berating this this he'd be in a bad mood he'd pout is that fair yes and so you felt compelled to do so yes but not physical force correct did Tara Lynn know that yes she did did Tracy know that [02:24:32] Speaker 3: I believe Tracy knew that from Tara Lynn and I would occasionally tell my mom about that I felt like I could trust Tara Lynn more with those okay [02:24:42] Speaker 4: I'll pass with this [02:25:02] Speaker 1: excuse me Rick Cross [02:25:05] Speaker 2: thank you your honor briefly let's clear something up you said you have an idea you have an idea of how long you're going to serve in this sentence remember we already established your charge started out with 20 years right [02:25:31] Speaker 3: are you asking my sentencing guideline [02:25:33] Speaker 2: no we went over the matrix charge you were originally charged with and allowed to plea bargain off of would have carried would have started on that matrix right 240 months I don't recall what it says 240 months yes and then you said you have an idea now that you're out of prison [02:25:53] Speaker 3: yeah I have a sentencing guideline and you have a date first hearing date right [02:26:03] Speaker 2: a tentative hearing yes June of 36 right yes sir 10 years right yes let's talk about this bombshell you are now sitting here on redirect again we're asked for the first time prosecutor didn't ask you on direct when he first got to ask you questions you never said you had had this convenient meeting with Kevin where the conspiracy was talked about now you bring it up and now you've been asked about it specifically you're claiming that that happened discussion about the conspiracy with the conspirators that this is the state's theory of the case even though you specifically said it didn't happen in your proffer right correct you specifically said it didn't happen in your interview correct yes any of the interviews where they had multiple chances to interview you right correct the results of which you didn't get your deal unless they found to be truthful right yes nothing further [02:27:19] Speaker 1: no follow-up All right, thank you. Excuse the excuse, Councillor. [02:27:27] Speaker 4: Yes, please. [02:27:27] Speaker 1: This works.