About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of Jodi Arias Breaks Down During Cross [PT 15] — Court TV Archive from COURT TV, published November 5, 2026. The transcript contains 33,841 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.
"Ma'am, yesterday we were talking about the time that you took your luggage and you placed it in your car. Do you remember we were talking about that? Yes. And one of the things that you were telling us was that you didn't remember what you had said on direct examination. Do you remember that? I..."
[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Ma'am, yesterday we were talking about the time that you took your luggage and you placed it in your car. Do you remember we were talking about that?
[00:00:09] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:00:09] Speaker 1: And one of the things that you were telling us was that you didn't remember what you had said on direct examination. Do you remember that?
[00:00:15] Speaker 2: I didn't remember the precise wording. That's correct.
[00:00:17] Speaker 1: Well, no, you didn't remember the time. It was more than the precise wording, wasn't it?
[00:00:22] Speaker 2: I don't remember the exact time. That's also correct.
[00:00:24] Speaker 1: And when I asked you if it was closer to 5, you weren't able to tell me, were you?
[00:00:30] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:00:30] Speaker 1: And in fact, what the exchange was on direct examination was that you were asked, so you say you're packing your luggage or you packed your luggage in your car and you're getting ready to leave. And the question was, do you remember about what time of the day that this was when you were packing your car and getting ready to leave? And you said, I don't. It was after that. I think it was after 2, I'm sure. So it was after 2 o'clock that you took everything and put it down at the car, correct?
[00:01:03] Speaker 2: That makes sense.
[00:01:04] Speaker 1: When you say that makes sense, although it makes sense, I'm asking you if that's what happened.
[00:01:09] Speaker 2: Well, it would have been after 2 because around before 2 we were having sex.
[00:01:13] Speaker ?: Pardon?
[00:01:14] Speaker 2: Before 2 we were otherwise engaged.
[00:01:17] Speaker 1: But after 2 o'clock, the way you're saying it is you're saying it could be 6 o'clock in the evening. It was after 2, specifically it was around 2 o'clock when you actually put the luggage in the car, right?
[00:01:30] Speaker 2: It was after 2 o'clock. I don't know how close to 2 o'clock.
[00:01:33] Speaker 1: So it could have been between 2 and... So you're telling us it was shortly after 2 o'clock based on that statement, right?
[00:01:39] Speaker 2: I just know it would have been after we did what we were doing.
[00:01:43] Speaker 1: And was it shortly after you did what you were doing?
[00:01:50] Speaker 2: Well, maybe, maybe not. I guess it's relative. I just know it was after what we were doing. I don't remember the exact time.
[00:01:57] Speaker 1: I just want to know how much time after you and he got done doing what you were doing, you said 2 o'clock. What time, in terms of hour, a minute, how much time elapsed after that, that you took your items down to the car?
[00:02:13] Speaker 2: I'm not sure.
[00:02:14] Speaker 1: And so, when you say you're not sure, you were a little bit more sure on direct examination, weren't you?
[00:02:21] Speaker 2: Not on exact time, no.
[00:02:22] Speaker 1: But you were more sure about the time. Do you want me to read it back to you? Objection, ask and answer.
[00:02:29] Speaker 2: How have I rolled? I was more... Wait, you asked me two questions.
[00:02:33] Speaker 1: Well, answer the first one then. You were ready to answer that.
[00:02:35] Speaker 2: I was more sure that... I was sure that it happened after we were done having sex.
[00:02:41] Speaker 1: And you mentioned 2 o'clock, didn't you?
[00:02:44] Speaker 2: That would have been after 2 o'clock, yes.
[00:02:46] Speaker 1: So, then you were asked, so after your car is packed and ready to go, you said you were dressed, right?
[00:02:52] Speaker 2: Were you being asked about that? I was dressed, yes. Unless we were engaging in other things, I was always dressed.
[00:02:58] Speaker 1: And it was after you packed your car that you and he then went downstairs to the study, right? Or the office, however you want to call it.
[00:03:08] Speaker 2: We did go downstairs after the bedroom stuff, but I don't know about packing the stuff in the car.
[00:03:14] Speaker 1: Well, when did you pack your stuff then? You seem to have a hard time telling us when you packed your stuff.
[00:03:19] Speaker 2: Yes, the precise moment. I don't remember when I put things in the car. Am I asking you for the precise moment, ma'am? You said when.
[00:03:25] Speaker 1: Right. When means, if I wanted the precise moment, I'll ask you for the precise moment. When, in the sequence of events, did you pack your stuff and put it in the car?
[00:03:37] Speaker 2: As far as sequence of events, the most precise I can tell you is after 2 o'clock and before leaving.
[00:03:43] Speaker 1: And you can't get any clearer than that?
[00:03:47] Speaker 2: It's not there. Like, it's, maybe it's somewhere there, but I don't remember.
[00:03:51] Speaker 1: So, again, it's an issue with your memory as to when it was that you actually put the stuff in the car, correct?
[00:03:57] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[00:03:58] Speaker 1: And when you put the items in the car, did you do it alone or did Mr. Alexander help you?
[00:04:04] Speaker 2: I did it alone.
[00:04:05] Speaker 1: Do you remember telling us that perhaps Mr. Alexander helped you?
[00:04:08] Speaker 2: Yes, it's possible to help me with it downstairs, but usually he let me get my own luggage.
[00:04:14] Speaker 1: So, it usually means that you're telling us that you don't remember whether or not he helped you on this occasion, right?
[00:04:20] Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm pretty sure that he helped me bring it downstairs, but I don't remember him walking me out to the car to put my own luggage in.
[00:04:28] Speaker 1: So, you went outside and you put it in your car, right? And your car was parked out front in the driveway, correct? It was parked in the driveway, yes. And would it be fair to say that if your car didn't have a license plate affixed to the back, that it would make it more difficult for people to know who was driving that car?
[00:04:50] Speaker 2: If that were true, I guess so.
[00:04:52] Speaker 1: That would be the case, though, right?
[00:04:55] Speaker 2: If there were no license plate, that would be true.
[00:04:58] Speaker 1: And we know that you hadn't put back at least the front license plate, you hadn't put that back, correct?
[00:05:05] Speaker 2: That's correct. I drove from Pasadena to Mesa with it in the floorboard.
[00:05:09] Speaker 1: So, the answer is that's correct. It was still in the car, correct?
[00:05:12] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:05:13] Speaker 1: And so, you're inside and you're in the study and you're looking at some CDs or something, correct? Correct. How long does that take in terms of time?
[00:05:23] Speaker 2: That one took a while because it took him some time to bring up some of the images or find the disk drive on his computer. I don't remember the exact time, but it seemed to take forever.
[00:05:33] Speaker 1: So, how long is a while to you?
[00:05:35] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know. It just seemed like it dragged and dragged while he went looking for the disk drive and I was just laying on the floor with Napoleon.
[00:05:45] Speaker 1: Are we talking hours? What are we talking about here?
[00:05:47] Speaker 2: I wouldn't say hours. It just felt like a lot longer than it should take to pop a CD into the computer and bring up some photographs that are on the CD.
[00:05:54] Speaker 1: So, it was just one CD that was popped into the computer, right? There were two CDs. And there was this issue involving the two CDs and then you and he had some sort of intimacy after that, correct?
[00:06:05] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:06:06] Speaker 1: And the intimacy that you had after that, it was not a situation that was unwanted by you, correct?
[00:06:12] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[00:06:13] Speaker 1: It was something that you participated in willingly, correct? Yes. And then after that, at some point, Mr. Alexander goes to take a shower, correct?
[00:06:24] Speaker 2: Um, yes.
[00:06:26] Speaker 1: What did he do after the intimacy was done? Did he go anywhere? Did he do anything before he went up to the shower?
[00:06:33] Speaker 2: I'm not sure what he did because I left the room to go to the bathroom across the hallway.
[00:06:38] Speaker 1: And so you went to the bathroom across the hallway and after using that bathroom, you came back out, right? Yes. And when you came back out, was Mr. Alexander in the office?
[00:06:47] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:06:48] Speaker 1: And how long was he in the office before the two of you went somewhere else?
[00:06:54] Speaker 2: Uh, a few minutes. We went upstairs.
[00:06:56] Speaker 1: And you went upstairs to do what?
[00:06:58] Speaker 2: To take photographs.
[00:07:00] Speaker 1: And so you're telling us that he was the, he agreed with you to take photographs, right?
[00:07:05] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:07:06] Speaker 1: Do you remember that you had a conversation with the detective and that you told a different story?
[00:07:10] Speaker 2: No.
[00:07:11] Speaker 1: Well, let's listen then. Move for the admission of 503.
[00:07:17] Speaker 3: 503 is admitted.
[00:07:21] Speaker 2: Afternoon, I just, you know, he had been cleaning his house. Um, so I couldn't, I wasn't sitting on the couch. Usually I'd just chill on the couch downstairs, you know, if no one was home. Um, but he had like chairs and all that stuff all over the couch. Like, he was cleaning the floors or something. Uh, he had Napoleon. I don't know if he made phone calls or not or what he was doing on the internet, but hopefully he was going to go up and take a shower. And it took a lot of convincing prior when he was shaving. I was like, I got some ideas and they didn't turn out good at all. Not like I wanted to, um, but I thought that I could get some cool pictures of him shaving. It's because he does the whole old fashioned thing with like this little, I don't know how it works. Um, he liked it though, apparently, because he used it for his profile picture on MySpace. Um, so those interrupts, I was going to do that again later, but I said, I asked him to do pictures of him in the shower and he's like, no. I was like, I just have an idea. I have a couple ideas. And he's like, cool, what do you mean? And I was like, I said, I have this, I saw this thing in a Calvin Klein ad once that looked really good.
[00:08:38] Speaker 4: And so he was, you're right. He wasn't very comfortable at first. He goes, he's standing there and he's all, I feel gay.
[00:08:45] Speaker 1: And so it took a lot of convincing for you to get him to take those photographs, right?
[00:08:51] Speaker 2: Yes. I was talking about a prior incident.
[00:08:53] Speaker 1: Ma'am, it does indicate that it took a lot of convincing for him, for you to take those photographs of him, correct?
[00:09:00] Speaker 2: Yes, but not on June 4th.
[00:09:02] Speaker 1: Ma'am, the photographs that I was asking you about in the shower were the ones involving, or that you were asked about on direct examination involved him taking a shower on June 4th. Do you remember that? Yes. That's the same thing that we're talking about here on June 4th, isn't it? No, that's the distinction. We had discussed the shower photos long before this. So you're saying that when you told that to the detective, you're talking about something totally different other than June 4th?
[00:09:28] Speaker 2: A conversation that occurred before June 4th, yes.
[00:09:30] Speaker 1: Ma'am, I'm asking you if the conversation that you're having there with the detective, is it in reference to the June 4th, 2008 photographs, yes or no?
[00:09:40] Speaker 2: Yes, in an indirect way, obviously, is because the photos exist because he agreed to do that.
[00:09:44] Speaker 1: Ma'am, yes or no?
[00:09:45] Speaker 2: I said yes.
[00:09:46] Speaker 1: So it does refer to the photographs on June 4th, 2008 then, right?
[00:09:51] Speaker 2: Yes, but not the conversation.
[00:09:52] Speaker 1: Ma'am, my question is, after that, it does say that it took a lot of convincing to get him to have those photographs, right? Yes or no?
[00:10:01] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[00:10:02] Speaker 1: And it also indicates that, at the time, he was shaving, right?
[00:10:06] Speaker 2: No.
[00:10:07] Speaker 1: It doesn't indicate that he was shaving before he took the photographs?
[00:10:12] Speaker 2: No, that was another incident.
[00:10:14] Speaker 1: Well, let's take a look at what it says again, all right?
[00:10:20] Speaker 2: Afternoon, I just, you know, he had been cleaning his house, so I couldn't, I wasn't sitting on the couch. Usually, I would just chill on the couch downstairs, you know, if no one was home. But he had, like, chairs and all that stuff all over the couch. He was cleaning the floors or something. We had Napoleon. I don't know if he made phone calls or not, or what he was doing on the internet, but at one point, he was going to go up and take a shower, and it took a lot of convincing prior when he was shaving. I was like, I got some ideas, and they didn't turn out good at all, not like I wanted to, but I thought that I could get some cool pictures of him shaving. It's because he does the whole old-fashioned thing with, like, this little, I don't know how it works. He liked it, though, apparently, because he used it for his profile picture on MySpace. So, those interactions go, I was going to do that again later, but I said, I asked him if I could do pictures of him in the shower, and he's like, no. I was like, I just have an idea, I have a couple ideas, and he's like, what do you mean? And I was like, I said, I have this, I saw this thing in a Calvin Klein ad once that looked
[00:11:35] Speaker 4: really good, and so he was, you're right, he wasn't very comfortable at first. He goes, he's standing there, and he's all, I feel gay.
[00:11:44] Speaker 1: And, ma'am, you heard the conversation and what you said that it took convincing, correct?
[00:11:51] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:11:52] Speaker 1: And you indicated that he was shaving prior to these photographs being taken, right?
[00:11:59] Speaker 2: Yes, months prior.
[00:12:00] Speaker 1: Ma'am, did you hear on that tape that it said he was shaving, right? Yes. And, ma'am, one of the things that we know from what you told us previously was that, do you remember the situation of you being tied up to the bed with this rope? Do you remember telling us that? Yes. And do you remember that you told us that he was engaging in performing oral sex on you? Do you remember that? Yes. And do you remember that you said it was stopped because it was uncomfortable? Do you remember saying that? Yes. And the reason that it was uncomfortable that you said was because he hadn't shaved that day. Do you remember that? Yes. And so he hadn't shaved that day, had he? No, he didn't. On the day that he killed him, he hadn't shaved yet, right?
[00:12:43] Speaker 2: I don't think he shaved at all that day.
[00:12:44] Speaker 1: You don't think? Well, then let's take a look at exhibit 159. All right. Take a look at the exhibit 159 that's behind you. You see that?
[00:12:55] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:12:56] Speaker 1: Looks like he's shaved, doesn't it?
[00:12:58] Speaker 2: It appears that way, yeah.
[00:12:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, and it looks like he's recently shaved, doesn't it?
[00:13:01] Speaker 2: It does look that way.
[00:13:02] Speaker 1: And you were talking to Detective Flores about him shaving prior to the photographs being taken, weren't you?
[00:13:07] Speaker 2: Yes, but not this day.
[00:13:09] Speaker 1: Ma'am, you did indicate in this excerpt of your conversation with the detective that it involved that there was this shaving before these photographs were taken. Do you remember talking about it on the excerpt?
[00:13:31] Speaker 2: The shaving photo shoot, yes.
[00:13:35] Speaker 1: Do you want me to play it for you again so you can hear what you say about the shaving previously?
[00:13:39] Speaker 2: No, thanks. I know what I said.
[00:13:41] Speaker 1: Well, it appears that you're having trouble acknowledging what you said. In it, you talk about him having to be convinced, correct? Yes. And one of the things that you said was that you convinced him while he was shaving, correct?
[00:13:56] Speaker 2: No, that's not correct.
[00:13:57] Speaker 1: Well, let's listen to it again, okay?
[00:14:10] Speaker 2: Afternoon, I just, you know, he had been cleaning his house. So I couldn't, I wasn't sitting on the couch. Usually I'd just chill on the couch downstairs, you know, if no one was home. But he had, like, chairs and all that stuff all over the couch. Like, he was cleaning the floors or something. Uh, we had Napoleon. I don't know if he made phone calls or not or what he was doing on the internet, but at one point he was going to go up and take a shower. It took a lot of convincing prior when he was shaving.
[00:14:45] Speaker 1: Did you hear that? It took a lot of convincing prior when he was shaving. Did you hear yourself say that? Yes, but that's not what I learned. Yes or no, ma'am? Am I asking you to expound on it? I just ask you whether or not you heard that you said it took a lot of convincing prior when he was shaving. That's what you said, right? Yes. And previous to that, we have you on the bed when you're making or having this intimate moment where you complain that it's not comfortable to you because he hadn't shaved yet, right? Yes. So, then we take a look at exhibit number 159 and he is recently shaved, correct? It appears that way. That's because he just shaved afterwards, right? I didn't see him shave that day.
[00:15:36] Speaker 2: Pardon? I didn't see him shave that day.
[00:15:38] Speaker 1: You did say, though, to this detective in that interview on July 16th of 2008 that it took a lot of convincing while he was shaving. You did say that, right? I said when, not while.
[00:15:50] Speaker 2: And it was actually a run-on sentence because I was referring to another day.
[00:15:53] Speaker 1: So, you're saying that you had a run-on sentence that you did hear yourself saying that it took a lot of convincing when he was shaving then, right?
[00:16:02] Speaker 2: It sounds that way, but when is the new sentence?
[00:16:05] Speaker 1: Let's hear it again then, okay? So, we can really understand what it said, all right?
[00:16:13] Speaker 2: Afternoon. I just, you know, he had been cleaning his house. So, I couldn't, I wasn't sitting on the couch. Usually, I'd just chill on the couch downstairs, you know, if no one was home. But he had, like, chairs and all that stuff all over the couch. He was cleaning the floors or something. He had Napoleon. I don't know if he made phone calls or not or what he was doing on the internet, but at one point, he was going to go up and take a shower. And it took a lot of convincing prior when he was shaving. I was like, I got some ideas.
[00:16:50] Speaker 1: Did you hear that? Now, according to you, he was going to go up and take a shower. And it took a lot of convincing prior when he was shaving. Isn't that what you said? Yes or no? That's all I'm asking.
[00:17:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, but you stopped it before the sentence was over.
[00:17:03] Speaker 1: Ma'am, isn't that what you said?
[00:17:05] Speaker 2: Yes. Part of what I said.
[00:17:07] Speaker 1: Isn't that what you said?
[00:17:08] Speaker 2: Yes, that's part of the sentence.
[00:17:10] Speaker 1: Well, then let's hear it then, all right?
[00:17:14] Speaker 2: Well, the last afternoon, I just—you know, he had been cleaning his house, so I couldn't—I wasn't sitting on the couch. Usually, I would just chill on the couch downstairs, you know, if no one was home. But he had, like, chairs and all that stuff all over the couch. Like, he was cleaning the floors or something. Like, I said, Napoleon, I don't know if he made phone calls or not or what he was doing on the Internet, but hopefully he was going to go up and take a shower. And it took a lot of convincing prior when he was shaving. I was like, I got some ideas, and they didn't turn out good at all, not like I wanted to. But I thought that I could get some cool pictures of him shaving. It's because he does the whole old-fashioned thing with, like, this little—I don't know how it works. He liked it, though, apparently, because he used it for his profile picture on MySpace. So, those interrupts go—I was going to do that again later, but I said—I asked him if I could do pictures of him in the shower, and he's like, no. And I was like, I just have an idea. I have a couple ideas. And he's like, well, what do you mean? And I was like—I said, I have this—I saw this thing in a Calvin Klein ad once that looked really good.
[00:18:30] Speaker 4: And so he was—you're right, he wasn't very comfortable at first. He goes—he's standing there, and he's all, I feel gay.
[00:18:37] Speaker 1: That's your whole statement, right? Yes. Involving that issue. And part of that statement says he was going to go up and take a shower, and it took a lot of convincing prior when he was shaving. Correct? That's what it says. Yes or no?
[00:18:49] Speaker 2: Yes, part of it.
[00:18:50] Speaker 1: Yes or no?
[00:18:51] Speaker 2: Yes, part of it.
[00:18:52] Speaker 1: Yes or no?
[00:18:53] Speaker 2: Yes, part of it.
[00:18:54] Speaker 1: You keep saying part of it.
[00:18:55] Speaker 2: Because you're not finishing the sentence. Maybe the transcriber put a period there, but that's not the whole sentence.
[00:19:01] Speaker 1: You've heard it over and over again. And we've heard it, and that's what it says, right? Yes. Those words were uttered by your mouth back on July 16th of 2008. Yes or no? That's correct.
[00:19:12] Speaker 5: You asked to answer this about half a dozen times.
[00:19:15] Speaker 1: Sustained. Now, you did—you were standing there taking some pictures, and how long were you standing there taking some pictures before something happened?
[00:19:24] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[00:19:27] Speaker 1: You did have his camera, right?
[00:19:29] Speaker 2: Yes. I wasn't standing.
[00:19:33] Speaker 1: It was a relatively new camera for you, right?
[00:19:37] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:19:38] Speaker 1: It's the first time you'd ever seen it, right?
[00:19:42] Speaker 2: First time I ever saw it, physically nailed it. I can't remember if I looked it up on the Internet when we were shopping for it.
[00:19:47] Speaker 1: So the answer is yes, that's the first time you've ever seen that specific camera, correct?
[00:19:53] Speaker 2: That I recall, yes.
[00:19:54] Speaker 1: Well, ma'am, had you been to Mr. Alexander's home between April when you left and June 4th of 2008? No. And it wasn't true that it was during that time, between April of 2008 and June 4th of 2008, when you killed him, that he bought the camera, right? Yes. So, it's fair to say, based on that set of circumstances, that you had never seen his camera before, correct? Based on that, solely, that's correct. Well, are you saying that you saw this camera, his camera, previous to that date? Yes. And where did you see his camera if you haven't seen him before, between April when you left, and June of 2008 when you saw him?
[00:20:44] Speaker 2: He posted a picture of himself in the mirror taking a picture of his whole self in the bathroom on Facebook, and his camera is clearly in the photograph.
[00:20:52] Speaker 1: So, how about if we do it this way, when was the first time you actually got to touch his camera? Was it on June 4th of 2008? Yes. And it's fair to say that you had never physically manipulated or worked with his camera prior to June 4th of 2008, correct?
[00:21:14] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:21:15] Speaker 1: And June 4th of 2008, in terms of getting familiar with that camera, that was the first opportunity that you had, correct?
[00:21:23] Speaker 2: Correct.
[00:21:24] Speaker 1: You did have an opportunity when you were taking pictures of him to at least see how it worked to take photographs, right? Yes. You were unsuccessful in working the camera to take a video, correct?
[00:21:40] Speaker 2: Correct.
[00:21:40] Speaker 1: And that was partly because you were unfamiliar with the camera, right?
[00:21:44] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:21:45] Speaker 1: You hadn't read the instructions, right? I had not. And so then, with regard to that particular camera, you start using it later on in the afternoon. About what time do you start taking these photographs in the shower, ma'am?
[00:22:00] Speaker 2: Off the top of my head, I don't remember the time. I guess they're timed on the photos, but I can't tell you the time.
[00:22:06] Speaker 1: Ma'am, I'm not asking what's on here. I'm asking what you remember, what you are cognizant of. Do you know?
[00:22:12] Speaker 2: It was sometime in the afternoon.
[00:22:15] Speaker 1: Do you know what time? Yes or no?
[00:22:16] Speaker 2: No.
[00:22:17] Speaker 1: But with regard to this particular camera, previously you have also told us that you have not deleted any photographs from that camera, correct?
[00:22:26] Speaker 2: Um, previously, I believe, that's correct. About the pictures of me, I said.
[00:22:35] Speaker 1: Ma'am, I'm asking, do you remember that we talked about this yesterday, about the photographs that were taken of you and him on the back? Do you remember that?
[00:22:43] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:22:43] Speaker 1: And you remember that you told us that it was he who had actually, actually deleted the photograph from the camera. Do you remember telling us that?
[00:22:50] Speaker 6: Yes, she must characterize the testimony. She said they both did.
[00:22:55] Speaker 2: Pearl, do you mean answer? Um, I believe they were deleted, but I don't remember how that happened. I think he deleted them after we took them.
[00:23:04] Speaker 1: You don't remember how it happens. If you don't remember how it happens, it's fair to say that you didn't do it, right? I'm very strong, you meant it.
[00:23:13] Speaker 3: Just angry phrase.
[00:23:14] Speaker 1: Well, you didn't delete the photographs, did you? The sex photographs, did you?
[00:23:19] Speaker 2: I might have deleted them.
[00:23:21] Speaker 1: Well, I thought you said that just now that it was he, meaning Mr. Alexander, that deleted the photographs.
[00:23:28] Speaker 2: I believe it was him, but I can't be sure, so it could have been me, but I believe it was him.
[00:23:32] Speaker 1: So, let's go with your belief. If it is your belief that he's the person that deleted the photographs, then that excludes you from deleting the photographs, right? Based on that belief.
[00:23:44] Speaker 2: Um, only if you base it on the belief, but that doesn't mean it's actually the reality.
[00:23:48] Speaker 1: Ma'am, everything that you tell us from the witness stand is your belief, isn't it?
[00:23:53] Speaker 2: I'm just saying they got deleted.
[00:23:54] Speaker 1: Yes or no? Everything that you're telling us is what you believe, right? If we're going to use the word believe.
[00:24:00] Speaker 2: It's the truth to the best of my life.
[00:24:01] Speaker 1: I'm not asking you if it's the truth. Am I asking you if it's the truth? Yes. I am asking you that? I thought the word was believe. Isn't it true that I'm asking you what you believe, and you told us that you believe it was Mr. Alexander who deleted the photographs of you and he having sex?
[00:24:21] Speaker 2: What was the question?
[00:24:22] Speaker 1: The question is, isn't it true, ma'am, that you just told us that you believe it was Mr. Alexander who deleted the photographs of you and he having sex on the bed?
[00:24:32] Speaker 2: I believe it was him, yes, but I'm not sure.
[00:24:35] Speaker 1: But you believe that, right?
[00:24:38] Speaker 2: It's likely, but I'm not sure. I believe it was probably him.
[00:24:42] Speaker 1: And if he's the one, assuming that we adopt your belief, if he's the one that deleted the photographs, then up to that point, when you're taking photographs of him in the shower, you haven't deleted any photographs from his camera yet, correct?
[00:25:00] Speaker 2: Not necessarily, no. That's not correct.
[00:25:03] Speaker 1: Well, the only photographs that are on that camera that were taken that day when you got there are the ones involving the sex. You're aware of that, right?
[00:25:14] Speaker 2: No, that's not true.
[00:25:16] Speaker 1: Well, you took other photographs that day?
[00:25:18] Speaker 2: Yes, in the shower.
[00:25:19] Speaker 1: Well, we're not there, are we?
[00:25:21] Speaker 2: I don't know. You go all over the place.
[00:25:22] Speaker 1: Well, you keep trying to be critical but not answering the questions. Are you having problems following you? If you are, let me know. But we're talking about the deletion of photographs. Do you have any problem understanding that that's the topic? No. And do you have any problem, first of all, understanding that you believe that it was Mr. Alexander who deleted the sexual photographs? You told us that you believed that. He usually deleted those. Yes or no. I'm not asking you what he did. Isn't it true that you just told us that?
[00:26:00] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, I did say that.
[00:26:01] Speaker 1: And based on that, the next time that his camera was used was when you were taking photographs of him in the shower, right?
[00:26:11] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[00:26:11] Speaker 1: And if that's the next time that you are using the photograph or that the two of you are using the camera, then before that time, when you are taking photographs of him in the shower, you, based on your belief, have never deleted any items from his camera, right? No. You think that you deleted something else, even though there were no other photographs taken?
[00:26:36] Speaker 2: I believe it's possible, and I can't say definitively.
[00:26:41] Speaker 1: There were only two instances of voluntary photograph taking with his camera that day, correct?
[00:26:48] Speaker 2: Correct.
[00:26:48] Speaker 1: There was the one involving the sex, right?
[00:26:52] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:26:53] Speaker 1: There was the one of him in the shower, right?
[00:26:55] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:26:56] Speaker 1: There were the involuntary photographs, right? Yes. And you just told us that between the sex pictures and the shower pictures, you did not, you believe, you did not delete any photographs from his camera, correct?
[00:27:14] Speaker 2: I'm not entirely sure.
[00:27:16] Speaker 1: But you said that's what you believed. Do you remember just telling that just minutes ago?
[00:27:20] Speaker 2: Yes, I believe that, but that doesn't mean it's concrete. I may have deleted that.
[00:27:23] Speaker 1: Ma'am, I'm just asking you whether or not you told us that that's what you believed. That's all I'm asking you. In other words, did you just tell us minutes ago that that's what you believed? Yes or no?
[00:27:32] Speaker 5: Do you actually ask, ma'am, to talk about three times more than this?
[00:27:36] Speaker 2: Overall, to me answer. Um, yes, I think I said that.
[00:27:40] Speaker 1: So if that's the truth and we're going on your belief, when he was in the shower, you began to stamp photographs of him, correct? Yes. And you wanted to get the Calvin Klein look, right? Yes. And before this time that you were taking photographs of him in the shower, you had not, based on your belief, ever deleted any images from that photograph, from that camera, correct?
[00:28:10] Speaker 2: No.
[00:28:12] Speaker 1: That's not correct? That's not correct. All right. Tell me when you deleted any images from that photograph, between the time that he deleted the sex pictures and after he deleted the sex pictures and you began to take the photographs of him in the shower. Between that period of time, when did you delete photographs from that camera?
[00:28:38] Speaker 2: I can't say definitively when, or even if, but I can't say whether Travis did either.
[00:28:43] Speaker 1: No, no, I'm going from the time that you, from your belief, just from your belief, ma'am. Immediately, seconds after, he's deleted those images, according to your belief, seconds after, and to the time when you first start taking the photographs. When? When did you delete anything from that camera?
[00:29:07] Speaker 2: Either of us could have deleted it.
[00:29:09] Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you? Either of us could have deleted the picture. I'm not asking that. You keep avoiding the question, ma'am. The question is, when? Give me the circumstances. When you, starting at the point that I just mentioned, to the time of taking the photographs in the shower. When did you do anything to delete photographs from his camera?
[00:29:34] Speaker 2: Sometime after they were taken. That's all I can say.
[00:29:38] Speaker 1: So sometime after what was taken?
[00:29:40] Speaker 2: The photographs that were deleted.
[00:29:43] Speaker 1: So, you didn't delete the sex photographs. Now we have the photographs that you're taking in the shower. Are you saying, now that you deleted some other photographs in between?
[00:29:54] Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying that.
[00:29:55] Speaker 1: That's what I want. So then, you, so you're not familiar with the camera in terms of how to delete photographs, are you?
[00:30:03] Speaker 2: At what point?
[00:30:04] Speaker 1: At the point before you had deleted any photographs.
[00:30:08] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[00:30:09] Speaker 1: And so that if you needed to delete it, go through the process of deleting a photograph, it would then be a first time for you, wouldn't it? Yes. And so you then tell us that you take this photograph, 160, and that this is at 530 and 30 seconds, and that's on June 4th, 2008, right? Yes. You were the person that was handling the camera when this photograph was taken, right?
[00:30:41] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:30:41] Speaker 1: The door was open, right?
[00:30:42] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:30:43] Speaker 1: And Mr. Alexander was seated there, right?
[00:30:46] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:30:47] Speaker 1: And what you told us on direct examination is that that's also an inadvertent photograph, correct?
[00:30:57] Speaker 2: It is.
[00:30:57] Speaker 1: What you're saying is that the camera was twirling and coming down at the time that this photograph was taken, right? No. She never said that.
[00:31:07] Speaker 3: Overall, give me answer.
[00:31:08] Speaker 2: That's not correct.
[00:31:09] Speaker 1: Well, what was the camera doing when this photograph was taken?
[00:31:13] Speaker 2: I have no idea.
[00:31:15] Speaker 1: Well, you were there, right?
[00:31:17] Speaker 2: We were looking at him, so we must have moved it because I kept showing him and then moving it back and showing him, moving it back, and then we would delete the ones he didn't like.
[00:31:24] Speaker 1: Do you remember on direct examination indicating that there was a fumble sort of movement with regard to this photograph, and that's why this is also an inadvertent photograph?
[00:31:35] Speaker 2: Not this photo.
[00:31:36] Speaker 1: This is the last in the sequence. This is at 530, 30 before the other shot. This is the last in the sequence. Isn't this the last in the sequence before there is the other shot of the ceiling, which is at exhibit number 161 of the ceiling?
[00:32:02] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[00:32:05] Speaker 1: So, are you saying now that this was not an inadvertent photograph?
[00:32:12] Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying that.
[00:32:13] Speaker 1: So, it is an inadvertent photograph, right?
[00:32:15] Speaker 2: Yes, it is.
[00:32:16] Speaker 1: What were the circumstances that made this an inadvertent photograph?
[00:32:21] Speaker 2: The only way that would be an inadvertent photograph is if my finger inadvertently hit the shutter release button.
[00:32:31] Speaker 1: Is that what you did, inadvertently hit the shutter? Obviously, yes. No, there's nothing obvious about it, ma'am. It's a photograph. It is in focus, isn't it? Yes. And if we compare it to the other photograph, which is exhibit number 161, this is not in focus, is it?
[00:32:48] Speaker 2: No.
[00:32:49] Speaker 1: The previous 160 is, though, right? Yes. How can you tell us just by looking at this that this is an inadvertent photograph if it is well in focus and the subject is sitting there aimed at this individual? Why is it that you tell us that this is an accidental or inadvertent photograph?
[00:33:09] Speaker 2: Because all of those photos were intended to be waist-up shots.
[00:33:13] Speaker 1: So, all the photos are intended to be waist-up shots. That doesn't tell us that this is an inadvertent photograph, does it?
[00:33:18] Speaker 2: It's certainly not intentional, so it is inadvertent.
[00:33:21] Speaker 1: You were holding the camera securely when this photograph was taken, correct?
[00:33:28] Speaker 2: I don't know what you mean by securely. I was just holding it to the best of my ability.
[00:33:32] Speaker 1: Right, the same as you were with regard to the other photographs, right? Yes. You were holding it as securely with this photograph as you were with the other photographs, right?
[00:33:43] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:33:44] Speaker 1: And this photograph, then, is taken when you apply pressure to the button that takes the photograph, correct?
[00:33:50] Speaker 2: That's how it works.
[00:33:52] Speaker 1: And that's how it works for the other photographs, too, right?
[00:33:55] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:33:55] Speaker 1: And in this particular case, this photograph is not out of focus, so there's really nothing that tells us, from the photograph itself, that this was inadvertent, right?
[00:34:06] Speaker 2: From the photo itself, yes, it's inadvertent, because I wouldn't take a picture of that.
[00:34:11] Speaker 1: But it's your word that you wouldn't take that shot, right? That's what you're saying. And it's because it shows his buttock area that you say it's inadvertent, right? That's correct.
[00:34:21] Speaker 2: Did he get mad when you took a picture of his buttocks? No, we just deleted it.
[00:34:24] Speaker 1: No, I'm not asking you anything about deleting it. I'm asking you whether or not he was angry at the time.
[00:34:32] Speaker 2: Not at that point. He wasn't angry.
[00:34:33] Speaker 1: Was he angry at the time that you took this photograph on June 4th, 2008, at 5.30 and 30 seconds, ma'am?
[00:34:40] Speaker 2: Not at that point.
[00:34:41] Speaker 1: That's the point I'm asking you about. I'm not asking you about any other time. Was he angry at that point? Yes or no?
[00:34:47] Speaker 2: No.
[00:34:48] Speaker 1: And so you then still had the camera in your hand and had not, according to you, dropped it, right?
[00:34:53] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[00:34:59] Speaker 1: Were you and he talking when these photographs were being taken?
[00:35:02] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:35:03] Speaker 1: And were you asking him how to pose?
[00:35:10] Speaker 2: I don't recall asking him any specific poses, just whatever.
[00:35:14] Speaker 1: Wasn't this for you? Isn't this something that you wanted?
[00:35:18] Speaker 2: It was for him. That's why it was on his camera.
[00:35:20] Speaker 1: I thought the conversation that you had with this detective was that, quote, it took a lot of convincing, whether it was then or another time. If it takes a lot of convincing, it means it's your idea, not his, right? Initially, it was my idea. So you're agreeing then that it was your idea to have this photography session?
[00:35:41] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:35:44] Speaker 1: And exhibit 159, he's now sitting down, right?
[00:35:49] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:35:49] Speaker 1: And when he's sitting there, it was you who was directing this photograph because you liked the way the water was coming on his face, didn't you?
[00:35:56] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:35:57] Speaker 1: So you were the person that was directing him on where to be and how to sit, right?
[00:36:02] Speaker 2: Yes, I guess. Pardon? He was sitting, so I just told him to look at the camera. Pardon? I mean, he was sitting and he was standing at one point.
[00:36:11] Speaker 1: Ma'am, he's standing through some of these photographs, correct?
[00:36:14] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:36:14] Speaker 1: And then at some point toward the end, he's sitting down, right?
[00:36:18] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:36:19] Speaker 1: Right before this attack happened, he's sitting down, right?
[00:36:26] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:36:26] Speaker 1: And you're the one that's directing the taking of these photographs because you want to get the Calvin Klein look, right?
[00:36:35] Speaker 2: Well, that was with the water, so I didn't have to direct him. The water did the work on that, on the...
[00:36:40] Speaker 1: Ma'am, I'm not asking you about what the water is doing. I'm not asking you about that. I'm asking you about this man's physical positioning inside of that shower. In some of these photographs, in the beginning, he's standing, isn't he? Yes. Let's take a look at one of them so that we know what we're talking about. 141, Exhibit 141, he's standing there, right?
[00:37:09] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:37:10] Speaker 1: And you're the one taking these photographs, right?
[00:37:12] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:37:13] Speaker 1: Then if we go to the exhibit that we've been talking about, which is Exhibit 159, he's now seated, right? Yes. You're the one that's telling you what position to get in so you can get this Calvin Klein effect that you want, right?
[00:37:28] Speaker 2: No, that's not right.
[00:37:29] Speaker 1: Well, isn't this what this photographic session is about? Isn't that what you told us it was about?
[00:37:35] Speaker 2: The Calvin Klein.
[00:37:37] Speaker 1: Yeah, the Calvin Klein look, right?
[00:37:39] Speaker 2: Something to that effect.
[00:37:41] Speaker 1: That's what the, um, what we heard you say, right?
[00:37:45] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:37:46] Speaker 1: So if you're the person that's taking the photographs, you're also the person that's telling him, stand this way, stand that way, or sit down, aren't you? It was mutual. I know no one's asking whether or not he consented to sit down. I'm asking who was directing him in these poses. It was you, wasn't it? Yes, and him, both of us. Well, it was you who was behind the lens, and it was you who wanted to get a certain look, right?
[00:38:17] Speaker 2: Yes, with the water.
[00:38:18] Speaker 1: And it was all about this Calvin Klein thing that you wanted, right?
[00:38:23] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:38:23] Speaker 1: I thought on direct examination you told us something about him wanting pictures because he was going to go to Cancun.
[00:38:30] Speaker 2: Which one is it, ma'am? Not because he was going to Cancun when his body was cut the way it was in this photo.
[00:38:36] Speaker 1: So which one is it, the Calvin Klein sort of ambience, or is it he wants his picture for Cancun? Pick one.
[00:38:45] Speaker 2: It's not for Cancun.
[00:38:48] Speaker 1: Didn't you indicate on direct examination that he was going to go to Cancun? He was proud of his body, and he wanted to pose for you because he wanted those sort of as a memento of how good he looked before he went to Cancun. Do you remember telling us that? Yes. So which one is it? It's both. Even though you told Detective Flores nothing about that, right?
[00:39:12] Speaker 2: About what?
[00:39:13] Speaker 1: Well, what is it that we're talking about?
[00:39:16] Speaker 2: We're talking about a few different things right now.
[00:39:18] Speaker 1: Well, the last one that we were talking about. The? The Cancun issue, ma'am. You never told the detective about the Cancun issue, did you? What Cancun issue? Do you remember that we're talking about Travis Alexander? Let's start with that.
[00:39:34] Speaker 2: Yes, I remember that.
[00:39:35] Speaker 1: That's why we're here, because you killed him, right?
[00:39:38] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:39:39] Speaker 1: And with regard to Mr. Alexander, he was going to Cancun, right? Yes. And you testified about him going to Cancun on direct examination, right? Yes. And you told us that the purpose of these pictures was because he was proud of his body because he'd been working out. Do you remember telling us that? Yes, that's correct. And that he now, when he went to Cancun, would be able to wear whatever swimwear, whatever it is that they wear out on the beach, right? Yes. And that he wanted to memorialize that through a picture so that he could keep it. Do you remember telling us that on direct examination? It wasn't worded that way, but that's more or less correct. Sure. And in fact, though, what you told the detective back on June 16th of 2008 is something entirely different about these photographs, right?
[00:40:32] Speaker 2: Just another aspect of the same thing. Pardon? It was another aspect of the same thing.
[00:40:38] Speaker 1: Well, you do tell the detective that it takes a lot of convincing, right?
[00:40:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, in January it did.
[00:40:43] Speaker 1: Sure. It took a lot of convincing. If it takes a lot of convincing, then why are you telling us that he really wanted the photographs? On the one hand, can you see that you're telling us he wanted the photographs? And on the other hand, you're telling us, no, he didn't want the photographs. Which one is it? Pick one. Objection, compound question. We're talking about two different incidents, one in January, one in June. Let me see your question. Ma'am, with regard to this photography session on June 4th of 2008, you've made two statements about it. Yes, he did want the photographs taken, or no, he needed convincing. Either one. Just tell me either one.
[00:41:26] Speaker 2: Well, he did need convincing when we initially discussed it. And on June 4th, he was ready for it because his body was more toned.
[00:41:36] Speaker 1: So you're saying he wanted it on June 4th of 2008. That's what you're saying, right?
[00:41:42] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:41:43] Speaker 1: And you did not say that to this detective back on July 16th of 2008, right?
[00:41:50] Speaker 2: I didn't specify.
[00:41:51] Speaker 1: No, you didn't say it, did you?
[00:41:53] Speaker 2: Say what?
[00:41:55] Speaker 1: What we're talking about. What is it that, why is it that you have a hard time understanding these questions when they are in conflict with what you're telling us?
[00:42:06] Speaker 5: Objection, argumentative, not election story.
[00:42:09] Speaker 1: Sustained. With regard to the detective, you did not tell him that Mr. Alexander wanted his picture taken in the shower, correct?
[00:42:20] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[00:42:21] Speaker 1: Let's take a look at exhibit 249. Do you recognize what's here? Yes.
[00:42:28] Speaker ?: Yes.
[00:42:28] Speaker 1: And this is a schematic diagram of Mr. Alexander's bathroom, correct?
[00:42:43] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[00:42:44] Speaker 1: And it also includes the closet, correct?
[00:42:46] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:42:47] Speaker 1: And the rope that we talked about was behind here, behind the bed, right?
[00:43:03] Speaker 2: That's right.
[00:43:03] Speaker 1: All right, ma'am. These photographs that you were taken at some point, take a look at exhibit number 161. And the time is 5.31 and 14 seconds. That photograph is snapped, correct?
[00:43:38] Speaker ?: Correct.
[00:43:39] Speaker 1: And this is the door to the shower, right?
[00:43:43] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:43:44] Speaker 1: This is the light above the shower, right?
[00:43:46] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:43:47] Speaker 1: And Mr. Alexander is seated down here, isn't he?
[00:43:50] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:43:50] Speaker 1: And we saw a picture of him seated, correct? He hadn't moved from that position, right?
[00:43:54] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:43:55] Speaker 1: You were standing, right?
[00:43:57] Speaker 2: I was kneeling at that point.
[00:43:59] Speaker 1: And this right here is the door to the closet, correct?
[00:44:03] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:44:06] Speaker 1: We go back to exhibit number 249. Where were you when that photograph was snapped? And I'm talking about, so we can be specific, if you want to look at it, 161. Where were you when this photograph was snapped?
[00:44:25] Speaker 2: It was somewhere maybe slightly to the left of the circle number four.
[00:44:32] Speaker 1: So you were immediately right in front of the shower, right?
[00:44:45] Speaker 2: A few feet back, so there was no water on the camera.
[00:44:48] Speaker 1: And Mr. Alexander was still seated, correct?
[00:44:53] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:44:54] Speaker 1: And the, you said that you were kneeling, right?
[00:44:59] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:45:00] Speaker 1: So that the distance between you and the floor was not that great, right?
[00:45:06] Speaker 2: No, that's correct.
[00:45:08] Speaker 1: And this photograph here, 160, the last one before that, were you also kneeling on this one?
[00:45:17] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:45:18] Speaker 1: You were?
[00:45:19] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:45:19] Speaker 1: And this would show the distance between, obviously, the lens and the subject. Are you saying that that's two feet?
[00:45:29] Speaker 2: It's not necessarily the distance because the lens had a zoom.
[00:45:33] Speaker 1: Right. So I'm asking you how far away were you?
[00:45:35] Speaker 2: I was a few feet, not two, maybe a little bit farther so the water didn't splash on the camera.
[00:45:40] Speaker 1: You hadn't moved from this position when you took this photograph when the other photograph was snapped, right?
[00:45:46] Speaker 2: No, that's not right. We were looking at photos.
[00:45:48] Speaker 1: You what?
[00:45:48] Speaker 2: We were looking at the pictures, reviewing them.
[00:45:51] Speaker 1: So when you took this photograph, which is the one of him at 530-30, and then there was this other photograph of 161, were you in the same position? I don't, I'm not asking if there were any, if there was any deletion of photographs in between. I'm just asking if you were in the same area when these two photographs were snapped. That's all I'm asking.
[00:46:14] Speaker 2: I was in the same general spot, but there was some adjusting. Yes.
[00:46:18] Speaker 1: All right. And you pointed to that general spot for us, correct?
[00:46:23] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:46:23] Speaker 1: And you said that that was a couple of feet away, right?
[00:46:26] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:46:27] Speaker 1: And that was right around there, right?
[00:46:29] Speaker 2: Around there, yes.
[00:46:30] Speaker 1: And so you say you dropped the camera, right?
[00:46:33] Speaker 2: I did.
[00:46:35] Speaker 1: Where did the camera go?
[00:46:37] Speaker 2: I dropped it when I was facing this way. It landed on the mat right about here and sort of did a little double bounce onto the tile right there.
[00:46:45] Speaker 1: Well, you said you dropped the camera right around here, correct?
[00:46:50] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:46:51] Speaker 1: And the camera then came?
[00:46:52] Speaker 2: It rolled a little bit. South then, right?
[00:46:54] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[00:46:55] Speaker ?: Yes.
[00:46:56] Speaker 1: In this direction, correct? How far did the camera roll?
[00:47:00] Speaker 2: It was right sort of against, it didn't touch, but it was sort of against the bathtub. So, the bathtub's over here.
[00:47:07] Speaker 1: Right. And this right here is the dividing wall between the shower and the bathtub. Do you understand that or not? Yes. So, the camera then came this way, right?
[00:47:19] Speaker 2: It was near, it was right sort of up against the bathtub, but it didn't hit the porcelain part of the bathtub.
[00:47:24] Speaker 1: And there was a bath mat that was here, wasn't there?
[00:47:31] Speaker 2: I don't recall a bath mat being there, I just know the shower mat was there.
[00:47:35] Speaker 1: So, there was a shower mat there?
[00:47:38] Speaker 2: Right outside of the shower, that's the only mat that I can remember being there.
[00:47:42] Speaker 1: And the camera is then right about here, right?
[00:47:45] Speaker 2: In that vicinity. Right.
[00:47:49] Speaker 1: And what do you, what happens when the camera comes to rest in this position? What happens next?
[00:47:56] Speaker 2: Travis snapped.
[00:47:57] Speaker 1: When you say Travis snapped, he manifested something. What did he do?
[00:48:01] Speaker 2: He got very angry. He stood up, stepped out of the shower, all the while calling me. Screaming at you.
[00:48:09] Speaker 1: Bad stuff, right? Cursing at you, right?
[00:48:11] Speaker 2: I remember the F word, I don't know how much cursing there was. And the F word being what?
[00:48:15] Speaker 1: You can say it. You said it in text messages. Go ahead.
[00:48:19] Speaker 2: He said fucking. He said fucking what?
[00:48:23] Speaker 1: That I'm a fucking idiot.
[00:48:25] Speaker 2: Okay.
[00:48:26] Speaker 1: He said you were a fucking idiot. And he's standing up when he says this, right?
[00:48:33] Speaker 2: As he was standing up or whatever. I don't know the exact position he was in when those words were uttered.
[00:48:38] Speaker 1: So he was either standing or moving up to stand when he started cursing, right?
[00:48:43] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:48:44] Speaker 1: And he's within about two feet of you, right?
[00:48:46] Speaker 2: Somewhere like that.
[00:48:48] Speaker 1: That's what you told us you were standing or kneeling when you took this photograph, right? Or this photograph was snapped, right? Yeah.
[00:48:54] Speaker 2: It was a few feet so that the water wouldn't splash.
[00:48:57] Speaker 1: Right. And at that point, he gets very upset. He does what you said that he told us. And is this what he, he gets this mean look in his face that you talked about?
[00:49:06] Speaker 2: When he picked me up, I looked in his face.
[00:49:09] Speaker 1: And you saw this mean look in his face, right?
[00:49:12] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:49:13] Speaker 1: Is this the same mean look that you told us that you remember back from August of 2007?
[00:49:19] Speaker 2: It's a look I've seen more than a few times. I'm asking about August 2007.
[00:49:24] Speaker 1: That's the one I'm asking about. Do you remember telling us that in August 2007, you saw that same mean look that you saw back on June 4th of 2008? I remember saying it was very similar. Similar means it's about the same, right? Yes. And so you see this same look on his face. But in August of 2007, all he did was grab your wrist, say I'm sorry, and held you, right? Objection was characterized as a testament. She didn't say it was the same. She said it was similar.
[00:49:54] Speaker 2: Overruled. Can you please repeat that?
[00:50:01] Speaker 1: Could you read it back to her, please?
[00:50:07] Speaker 7: Question. And so you see the same look on his face. But in August of 2007, all he did was grab your wrist, say I'm sorry, and held you, right?
[00:50:17] Speaker 2: Back in August, yes.
[00:50:19] Speaker 1: So you're in similar, it appears to be in a similar circumstance. Now something else happens, right?
[00:50:27] Speaker 2: Yes, many somethings later, this something is now happening.
[00:50:30] Speaker 1: Well, something happens now where you claim that he grabbed you and threw you down, right?
[00:50:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, he body slammed me.
[00:50:36] Speaker 1: He body slammed you down, right? Yes. In a very forceful way. Where did he body slam you down, ma'am?
[00:50:43] Speaker 2: Right in the same area on the tile. Pardon? In the same area on the tile, my head would be facing south.
[00:50:49] Speaker 1: So in other words, right here in this area where you were taking the photographs, right? Kind of more like that.
[00:50:58] Speaker ?: Pardon?
[00:50:58] Speaker 2: Right around there. Valeria, I'd say.
[00:51:00] Speaker ?: And you said your head was facing south, right?
[00:51:00] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:51:01] Speaker 1: So you even though he slammed you really, really hard, you were still cognizant enough to know that your head was facing south, which would be in this direction, right? In this direction, right?
[00:51:19] Speaker 2: That's where I whacked my head on the tile.
[00:51:21] Speaker 1: Yeah. And so your head then is facing south, and you're remembering all this even though he slammed you down really, really hard, right?
[00:51:29] Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking south when it happened, but here it is.
[00:51:33] Speaker 1: But you remember the direction of your head, whatever the direction you're giving us now, you remember that your head was in this direction, right?
[00:51:41] Speaker 2: Yes, I do.
[00:51:43] Speaker 1: It wasn't a circumstance that you hit your head so hard that it made you lose at least any memory at that point of what had happened, right?
[00:51:54] Speaker 2: I don't think so.
[00:51:55] Speaker 1: Well, no. You were there when you say you don't think so. It sounds like you did. You remember your head being this way, right?
[00:52:02] Speaker 2: I do.
[00:52:03] Speaker 1: If she can't testify the memories that she lost, how would she know that?
[00:52:07] Speaker 3: Overall, do me answer.
[00:52:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, I just don't know about head injuries, but I just remember being in that direction.
[00:52:12] Speaker 1: I'm asking whether or not, whatever happened, you remember enough to know that your head was facing in this direction south, which is south, right?
[00:52:24] Speaker 2: More or less, yes. My body was somewhat parallel with that area. I'm asking about your head.
[00:52:29] Speaker 1: I'm not asking about your body. Your body is, your head is facing this way, right?
[00:52:35] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:52:36] Speaker 1: And so, that happens, and where's, is the camera still? Down here, next to the, um, tub? I would assume.
[00:52:47] Speaker 2: I don't remember the camera at that point anymore. You don't remember the camera anymore.
[00:52:51] Speaker 1: You were focused on Mr. Alexander. And now he's standing over you, right? Yes. And he's standing over you and you're down. Tell me what happens next.
[00:53:02] Speaker 2: I roll to my left.
[00:53:04] Speaker 1: You roll to your left, which would be in this direction.
[00:53:08] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:53:09] Speaker 1: And Mr. Alexander would be in front of you, correct?
[00:53:11] Speaker 2: Um, he was somewhat to my right, a little bit, but just outside the shower. And I ran down the hallway.
[00:53:18] Speaker 1: Well, I'm not asking you anything about that. Mr. Alexander is out of the shower, correct? Yes, he is.
[00:53:25] Speaker 2: Or he stepped out. I don't know if he has one foot in, one foot out, but he stepped out.
[00:53:29] Speaker 1: Well, he needed to have been out of the shower in order for him to grab you and body slam you, didn't he? Not necessarily. Oh, so you're saying that he was in the shower, and from the shower he kind of reached over and grabbed you and body slammed you sideways, even though he wasn't out of the shower?
[00:53:46] Speaker 2: No, I said he definitely stepped out, but I don't know if he had both feet out or one foot
[00:53:50] Speaker 1: out. When he is in the shower, he at least takes one step out, and you're far enough away so that the water's not going to be getting on the camera, right? Right? Yes. And in this position where his legs are open, potentially, right? Right? Yes. You're saying that he reaches over with one leg still in the shower, and he body slams you. That's what you said, right?
[00:54:15] Speaker 2: No, that's not what I said.
[00:54:17] Speaker 1: She said she didn't know where to speak to her.
[00:54:19] Speaker 2: Your objection is noted. Overruled. You may answer the question. That's not what I said.
[00:54:23] Speaker 1: Well, did he, when he body slammed you, isn't it true that he was out of the shower?
[00:54:32] Speaker 2: Well, yeah.
[00:54:33] Speaker 1: Okay, then. Why did you tell us that he was still in the shower? Why did you just minutes ago tell us that?
[00:54:39] Speaker 2: I didn't say that minutes ago. You said he had one foot in the shower. Didn't you say that? No, I didn't say he had one foot in the shower. I said I don't know if he stepped all the way out or if the one foot was still in the shower.
[00:54:48] Speaker 1: Okay. So it could be that one foot was still in the shower, you're telling us, when he body slammed you, right?
[00:54:54] Speaker 2: It could be or it couldn't be. I don't know. All I know is getting body slammed again.
[00:54:57] Speaker 1: But you're saying it's a possibility that the one foot is still in the shower, right? I don't know. Well, you were there, right? And so far you remember very well so far because you were scared, right? That's what you told him. I was terrified. Terrified. Same sort of thing only escalated, right? Scared is the same thing as terrified only terrified is worse, right?
[00:55:17] Speaker 2: I would say that, yes.
[00:55:18] Speaker 1: And so he, even though he may have had one foot in the shower, he does step outside, right?
[00:55:25] Speaker 2: Yeah, he comes toward me enough to lift me up, whatever that took. He lifts me up and body slams me.
[00:55:31] Speaker 1: So he actually, body, picks you up physically and body slams you, right? Yes. So what I think you're now telling us is that the body slam takes place with both of his feet out of the shower, right?
[00:55:45] Speaker 2: I wasn't focused on his feet so I can't really answer that question.
[00:55:48] Speaker 1: All right. So then you go down, right? Yes. He's standing up, right? Yes. And he's standing up, according to you, right about here, right?
[00:55:58] Speaker 2: Um, not where you pointed to number three. It wasn't there. How about that? Number four? Somewhere closer in that area. It's all the same general area. Right in here? Somewhere in that area. All right. He was just standing over me. Standing over you.
[00:56:14] Speaker 1: Were his feet straddling you? No. Were his feet at your feet?
[00:56:20] Speaker 2: More like my legs, maybe? My knees.
[00:56:26] Speaker 1: So he was with his legs open and your knees were between his legs. Is that what we're talking about?
[00:56:34] Speaker 2: He wasn't straddling me.
[00:56:35] Speaker 1: So he was standing next to your knees, right?
[00:56:38] Speaker 2: He was over me, but not with both legs on each side of me.
[00:56:42] Speaker 1: Right. But he was standing next to your knees, right? That's what you said. Knees or shins. It was... All right. Let's go with knees or shins. That part of your leg, right? Knees or shins, right?
[00:56:54] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:56:55] Speaker 1: And you were close to this area. Remember you told us that you were close to the top. Do you remember telling us that? Yes. And so if he was standing, he would have had to have been standing on the... If we look at this diagram, on the left side, which would be... I understand that this is a direction that you haven't given, but to the west of you, right?
[00:57:18] Speaker 2: He was not on the left, he was on the right.
[00:57:21] Speaker 1: So he was on the right, so he would be on this side then, near your shins.
[00:57:25] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:57:26] Speaker 1: So that would mean that your feet were in front of the shower then, right?
[00:57:29] Speaker 2: That's about the general area of where they were.
[00:57:32] Speaker 1: All right. And do you know how close your feet were to the door that was open?
[00:57:39] Speaker 2: No.
[00:57:40] Speaker 1: So he's standing there and you're down, right? Yes. And you're terrified, right? Yes. What happens next?
[00:57:49] Speaker 2: Well, I got the wind knocked out of me and I hit my head, but...
[00:57:54] Speaker 1: All right. You hit your head, but you remember everything. Based on what you're telling us, you still have a good memory of what happened, right?
[00:58:02] Speaker 2: Up to that point.
[00:58:03] Speaker 1: You got the wind knocked out of you, right? Yes. But even though you got the wind knocked out of you, you still have a good memory of what happened, right?
[00:58:10] Speaker 2: I don't know how good it is, but I remember it.
[00:58:13] Speaker 1: You remember it, right? Yes. Use your word. It hurt. And when you got the wind knocked out of you, that means that you were having difficulty breathing, right?
[00:58:25] Speaker 2: It hurt. It hurt. I don't remember not being able to breathe. It just hurt my rib cage and my torso.
[00:58:31] Speaker 1: It hurt. So when you say that you had the wind knocked out of you, that may not be accurate because what you're really describing is a pain to your midsection, whether it be the ribs or whatever, right?
[00:58:42] Speaker 2: Yes, it was painful.
[00:58:43] Speaker 1: It was painful. That's not the question. The question is when you said that you had the wind knocked out of you, that may not be accurate, correct?
[00:58:51] Speaker 2: I'm not sure because I've had the wind knocked out of you before, only a lot worse than that. So it felt that way, but more it was painful.
[00:59:01] Speaker 1: So you had the wind knocked out of you before, right? Yes. You know what that feels like, right? Yes.
[00:59:06] Speaker 2: You can't breathe.
[00:59:07] Speaker 1: That's why they call it knocking the wind out of you, right? Yes. So you're telling us then, since you are familiar with having the wind knocked out of you, that you've hit your head, you're down, and you can't breathe, right?
[00:59:19] Speaker 2: I'm not saying that.
[00:59:20] Speaker 1: You did say that you had the wind knocked out of you, right? Worse than this, yes. No, no, no. I'm talking about here. You're telling us that you had the wind knocked out of you here, right?
[00:59:30] Speaker 2: I think it was to a degree, yes.
[00:59:32] Speaker 1: So you're having difficulty breathing then at that point, right?
[00:59:36] Speaker 2: Breathing wasn't going through my mind at that point. I just remember the pain.
[00:59:40] Speaker 1: I'm not asking you what was going through your head. I'm asking you whether or not you are telling us that you had difficulty breathing. That's all I'm asking. I'm not asking what was going through your head. What was going through your head?
[00:59:55] Speaker 2: I don't remember that as being a priority in my mind at that moment.
[00:59:59] Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to prioritize your pain. You understand that, right? I'm asking you whether or not, because you tell us you had the wind knocked out of you, you were having difficulty breathing. That's all I'm asking you. I don't remember. If you don't remember that you were having difficulty breathing and based on your previous experiences with having the wind knocked out of you, you didn't have the wind knocked out of you, right?
[01:00:27] Speaker 2: I think the wind was knocked out of me partially or somewhat, because that's the sensation that I felt.
[01:00:37] Speaker 1: All right, but it didn't involve breathing though, is what you're saying. Did you say did or didn't? Did not involve a breathing difficulty.
[01:00:44] Speaker 2: I can't say for sure, because that wasn't the immediate problem that I was worried about in that moment.
[01:00:53] Speaker 1: And so you're down, what happens next? I rolled and ran down the hallway. Well, you rolled. Rolling is a little bit different than running, wouldn't you agree?
[01:01:04] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:01:05] Speaker 1: So, even though you're having this wind knocked out of you, and according to you, you have had your head smacked on the floor, you are able to roll to your left, right? Yes. I'm sorry, to the left, correct? Yes.
[01:01:21] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:01:22] Speaker 1: And you are clothed at this time, right? Yes. He does not have any clothing on, right? No, he doesn't. He's angry though, right? Very angry. Extremely angry, right?
[01:01:34] Speaker 2: I would say that, yes.
[01:01:36] Speaker 1: And you turn to your left to get up, right? Yes. And you turn to your left to get up, so you can get away, right?
[01:01:44] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:01:45] Speaker 1: You have absolutely no problem moving to your left and getting up, do you?
[01:01:53] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know.
[01:01:55] Speaker 1: Well, you were there.
[01:01:56] Speaker 2: I just know I did it, and I did it as fast as I could.
[01:01:59] Speaker 1: And he didn't stop you from doing that, did he?
[01:02:02] Speaker 2: I perceived that he was trying to get on top of me.
[01:02:06] Speaker 1: So you thought that he was trying to get on top of you. You say you perceived, which means that it may or may not be something that actually happened. So did he get on top of you at that point? I rolled away before that could happen. So, um, you rolled away before that could happen means that you're saying that he then tried to go down to grab you? Is that what you're saying?
[01:02:28] Speaker 2: Um, I don't remember him getting down, but I remember him just coming at me and coming at me and coming at me.
[01:02:35] Speaker 1: I understand that he's coming at you, but you're down on the ground, right?
[01:02:40] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:02:41] Speaker 1: So if you're down on the ground, isn't he going to have to, by necessity, stoop over?
[01:02:47] Speaker 2: Um, if he were to get on top of me, yes.
[01:02:50] Speaker 1: And so was he stooping over? Did you see that?
[01:02:53] Speaker 2: I don't know. I just know that he was coming after me and I rolled.
[01:02:57] Speaker 1: Well, you're telling us that you have these ideas, but I'm asking you what he actually did. Did he stoop over to get you?
[01:03:05] Speaker 2: I can only say what was going through my head, not what he actually did.
[01:03:09] Speaker 1: Well, you weren't looking at what he was doing?
[01:03:11] Speaker 2: Not after I got my head smacked on the tile, no.
[01:03:13] Speaker 1: So you weren't looking at him at that point, right?
[01:03:15] Speaker 2: Not at that very moment, no.
[01:03:17] Speaker 1: So it could be then at that point that what he was trying to do, when he was trying to, because you weren't looking at him, that when he was trying to stoop down, it could be that he was trying to help you to pick you up and apologize, right? Based on the fact that you told us you weren't looking at his face. It could be, right?
[01:03:32] Speaker 5: Objection cost or speculation is no evidence.
[01:03:36] Speaker 3: Overall, do we answer?
[01:03:38] Speaker 2: I can't say he was stooping down, so I don't even know how to answer that.
[01:03:41] Speaker 1: Well, you said he was trying to get on top of you.
[01:03:43] Speaker 2: I perceived that.
[01:03:45] Speaker 1: Yes, and perception is your eyes, your looking, hearing, right?
[01:03:49] Speaker 2: Part of that is perception. Sure.
[01:03:53] Speaker 1: And you're telling us that hearing and looking, you believe, or you think, whatever term you want to use, that he was going to get on top of you, right?
[01:04:04] Speaker 2: I'm not saying hearing or looking, I'm just saying that was my perception.
[01:04:07] Speaker 1: So the way you keep backing away from it, it appears that what you're telling us, it could be that he's stooping down to help you to get up, right?
[01:04:16] Speaker 5: Rephrase your question.
[01:04:21] Speaker 1: You tell us that he was going down at some point, causing you to move away, right?
[01:04:29] Speaker 2: No, I'm telling you that after I got body slammed, I perceived that he was going to try to get on top of me and I wanted to roll away from the situation and run.
[01:04:37] Speaker 1: So that was your perception, but it wasn't caused by anything he was doing. It was caused by what he had done before then. That's what you're saying?
[01:04:47] Speaker 2: Certainly by what he'd done before, but I don't know exactly what he was doing right after he slammed me on the car.
[01:04:52] Speaker 1: You weren't even looking at him, right?
[01:04:54] Speaker 2: Not at that point.
[01:04:56] Speaker 1: You get up, right?
[01:04:58] Speaker 2: Yes. After rolling, I got up and ran.
[01:05:00] Speaker 1: Right. And when you get up, point to me. Are you here? You're here. Where are you?
[01:05:06] Speaker 2: I'm not sure because I didn't do a full turn. I just rolled and got up and ran.
[01:05:11] Speaker 1: Were you in front of the closet?
[01:05:14] Speaker 2: Not directly, but...
[01:05:16] Speaker 1: Were you right there? Where were you?
[01:05:19] Speaker 2: I don't know. I just rolled and I got up and booked it down the hallway.
[01:05:24] Speaker 1: And, well, this is not the hallway where you went down, right?
[01:05:28] Speaker 2: No, that's not where I ran.
[01:05:30] Speaker 1: Right. And in fact, are you saying that you rolled all the way down until you got to the entrance of the hallway? Mm-hmm. Do you have a question? Ask and answer. Sherry says she didn't know where she's rolled.
[01:05:39] Speaker 2: Overall. I did not make a full rotation. I just rolled to my side and got up and started running.
[01:05:45] Speaker 1: So if you are here and you make a half rotation, then isn't it true that you would be standing right about here? Objection. That mischaracterizes her testimony. You would be standing right about here when you took off running.
[01:05:58] Speaker 3: Rephrase the question.
[01:06:00] Speaker 1: Were you standing right about here when you took off running? Objection. She's already said she didn't know where she was.
[01:06:05] Speaker 2: Overrolled. I really am not sure. I just got up and started running after I rolled to the side.
[01:06:12] Speaker 1: That's all I can say. And he was still angry at that time, right? Yes, he was still angry.
[01:06:16] Speaker 2: And he was still screaming at you, right?
[01:06:18] Speaker 1: Yes. And this is the individual that on occasion had been telling you what great shape he'd gotten in, right? Yes. He's this individual that you told us was a wrestler, right? Yes. In high school. And he's the same individual that part of the reason that you were taking these photographs from the sheriff was because he was in pretty good shape, right? Yes. So you take off running and you take off running down the hallway, right? Yes. And you go in this direction here is what you're telling us, right?
[01:07:00] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:07:01] Speaker 1: And then you pivot and take a right in here, which is the closet, right? Yes. And you're telling us that this individual that's standing and you're down, that's in really good shape, that's really angry, and you're running down this hallway, you're telling us he can't catch you because you're way faster, right?
[01:07:25] Speaker 2: That's not what I'm saying.
[01:07:27] Speaker 1: No. Well, you're saying he didn't catch you. You're telling us he didn't catch you here, right?
[01:07:32] Speaker 2: No.
[01:07:33] Speaker 1: He didn't catch you here, right? No. He didn't catch you here, right? No. He's running after you, though, is what you did tell us, though, right?
[01:07:42] Speaker 2: I didn't look behind me, but I assumed. He didn't.
[01:07:46] Speaker 1: Well, if you didn't look behind you, does that mean he wasn't coming after you?
[01:07:53] Speaker 2: No. Ultimately, that doesn't mean that because that's not what the reality ended up being.
[01:07:58] Speaker 1: So this individual that's in this shape that you've described, you get here before he does, right? Yes, I do. And he doesn't catch up to you here. When you're here, he hasn't caught up to you, right?
[01:08:11] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[01:08:12] Speaker 1: And there's a door there, right?
[01:08:15] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:08:16] Speaker 1: According to you, you're able to close that door, right?
[01:08:19] Speaker 2: I slammed it.
[01:08:20] Speaker 1: But that door doesn't have a lock to it, right?
[01:08:23] Speaker 2: Not that I recall.
[01:08:25] Speaker 1: Well, you were there, though, right?
[01:08:26] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:08:29] Speaker 1: Let's take a look at exhibit number 78. Take a look at it, please. Where were you taking the photographs when this happened? I want to see it on this exhibit.
[01:08:43] Speaker 2: Outside the shower. Pardon? Outside the shower.
[01:08:46] Speaker 1: Well, why don't you put a mark on there? Ma'am, were you crying when you were shooting him?
[01:09:04] Speaker ?: I don't remember.
[01:09:05] Speaker 2: I don't remember.
[01:09:06] Speaker 1: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?
[01:09:11] Speaker 2: I don't remember.
[01:09:12] Speaker 1: How about when you cut his throat? Were you crying then?
[01:09:15] Speaker 4: I don't know.
[01:09:17] Speaker 1: So take a look then. And you're the one that did this, right?
[01:09:23] Speaker ?: Yes.
[01:09:24] Speaker 1: And you're the same individual that lied about all this, right?
[01:09:30] Speaker 4: Yes.
[01:09:31] Speaker 1: So then take a look at it. Ma'am, take a look at exhibit 78. And you indicated that you were in this vicinity here with your head in this direction when Mr. Alexander was in this vicinity sort of next to you, correct?
[01:10:02] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:10:03] Speaker 1: And you indicated that you were able to get up, right? Yes. He was within a foot of you, wasn't he?
[01:10:10] Speaker 2: That sounds right. I don't know.
[01:10:13] Speaker 1: Sounds about right. Well, he was within an arm's length. He could have touched you if he wanted to, right?
[01:10:18] Speaker 2: I think so. He would have to reach down, I guess. Pardon? I can't hear you.
[01:10:25] Speaker 1: Either pull the microphone up.
[01:10:26] Speaker 2: He would have to reach down because I was on the ground, but within arm's length, I guess so, yeah.
[01:10:31] Speaker 1: Or he could have kicked you if he wanted to. That's how close he was, right?
[01:10:34] Speaker 2: Yes, he was that close.
[01:10:35] Speaker 1: And you were able to get up, right?
[01:10:38] Speaker 2: After rolling, I got up, yes.
[01:10:41] Speaker 1: So you rolled then, right? Yes. You were able to get up, right? Yes. And he was standing right there, correct?
[01:10:48] Speaker 2: In the same place, but I rolled away, yes.
[01:10:51] Speaker 1: And then you began to run, correct? Yes. And he began to run after you, right?
[01:10:56] Speaker 2: I heard his footsteps. I didn't look.
[01:10:58] Speaker 1: You didn't tell us about it. In fact, when you testified prior to trial, you told us that you didn't know if he was coming after you, right?
[01:11:04] Speaker 2: Prior to trial.
[01:11:05] Speaker 1: Prior this morning, when you testified. Do you remember testifying this morning?
[01:11:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know for certain because I didn't look back.
[01:11:11] Speaker 1: Ma'am, my question to you is, do you remember testifying this morning?
[01:11:15] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:11:16] Speaker 1: And do you remember we discussed this issue about going down the hallway? Do you remember that? Yes. Yes. And do you remember that you told us that you had no idea where he was? Objections.
[01:11:25] Speaker 3: A rule to me answered. I didn't say that.
[01:11:29] Speaker 1: You said that you didn't know if he was following you because you weren't paying attention. Do you remember that?
[01:11:34] Speaker 2: No, I don't remember saying I didn't know. I just remember saying that I wasn't sure.
[01:11:40] Speaker 1: And that you didn't know. You said that you didn't hear him, right? You didn't say anything about hearing him, did you?
[01:11:47] Speaker 2: I didn't say that I heard him. I didn't say that I didn't hear him.
[01:11:51] Speaker 1: So you're now saying that you did hear him coming after you, right?
[01:11:55] Speaker 2: I'm saying that I thought I heard footsteps running after me.
[01:11:58] Speaker 1: Well, when you say you think, it implies that you're not sure. Did you or did you not hear footsteps as you're going down the hallway?
[01:12:06] Speaker 2: I think I did.
[01:12:07] Speaker 1: Okay. So you heard footsteps. That means he's running after you, right? That's what I believed. Well, all we care about is what you believe in. So you say that you hear his footsteps, right? Yes.
[01:12:19] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:12:20] Speaker 1: So he is coming after you, right?
[01:12:22] Speaker 2: Yes, he is.
[01:12:23] Speaker 1: Makes you scared, right?
[01:12:24] Speaker 2: Very.
[01:12:25] Speaker 1: And you're saying that this individual who's in shape is not able to catch you before you turn the corner to go into the closet, right?
[01:12:33] Speaker 2: He did not.
[01:12:34] Speaker 1: That's what you're saying, that he wasn't fast enough to do it, right? Um, that's right. And you slammed the door, right? I did. You can't see through the door, right?
[01:12:43] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[01:12:44] Speaker 1: So how do you know he's still mad?
[01:12:47] Speaker 2: Because Travis never calmed down that quickly.
[01:12:50] Speaker 1: Man, you couldn't see through the door at his expression on his face, could you?
[01:12:56] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[01:12:57] Speaker 1: You couldn't see his eyes, correct? Correct. And so you're inside this closet, right?
[01:13:06] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:13:07] Speaker 1: And you don't know what he's doing outside, according to you, right?
[01:13:10] Speaker 2: That's right.
[01:13:11] Speaker 1: And so even though you don't know what he's doing outside, you claimed you go for a weapon, right?
[01:13:18] Speaker 2: Uh, not immediately. My thought was to run through the other door first.
[01:13:22] Speaker 1: So then you sat around and waited? Is that, there was a period of time here that you waited then? No, it all happened very quickly this whole thing. Okay, well then I thought you said that you thought, or that you took some time to think this out.
[01:13:34] Speaker 2: It was, it was like instantaneous. I just thought as soon as he slammed the door, I was going to run through the other door. And then in a split second, I realized where the gun was and I went to grab it so that I could point it at him and protect myself.
[01:13:47] Speaker 1: So you're inside this closet, right? Yes. And you're ahead of him, aren't you? In other words, he's on the other side of the door, right? That was my thought.
[01:14:00] Speaker 2: I also had a feeling.
[01:14:01] Speaker 1: Ma'am, I'm not asking you what your thinking was. I'm asking you, isn't it true that he was outside of the door? Well, I, I don't know where he was.
[01:14:09] Speaker 2: I just thought that I shut the door.
[01:14:11] Speaker 1: Well, okay, then he was somewhere in the bedroom then, right?
[01:14:14] Speaker ?: I don't know.
[01:14:15] Speaker 2: He could have been in the bedroom or down running down the hallway to meet me at the other end of the door.
[01:14:19] Speaker 1: Bottom line, he wasn't in the closet with you is what you're telling us, right?
[01:14:22] Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.
[01:14:23] Speaker 1: And you don't know what he's doing during this period of time that he's out there, right?
[01:14:28] Speaker 2: Um. Yes or no? Do you know what he's doing while he's out there? Specify which period of time you're referring to.
[01:14:37] Speaker 1: The period of time where you're not seeing him. You don't know what he's doing. That's correct.
[01:14:41] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[01:14:42] Speaker 1: And this is a period of time that allows you for contemplation or to think, right? Um, if I was in my right mind, yes. Well, I'm not asking you whether or not you were in your right mind, was I? No. I was asking you whether or not you had time to think, right?
[01:15:02] Speaker 6: What was your objection, ask, and answer?
[01:15:03] Speaker 1: A world.
[01:15:05] Speaker 2: Um. I may have had time, but.
[01:15:08] Speaker 1: Well, didn't you just tell us just now that you sat, not sat, that you thought about what you were going to do next? Right?
[01:15:17] Speaker 2: Yes, I thought of getting away.
[01:15:19] Speaker 1: And so the answer is yes, you did think, right?
[01:15:22] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:15:23] Speaker 1: And in fact, when he was, when you were doing this thinking, he wasn't in the closet, right?
[01:15:30] Speaker 2: Um, no, he was opening the door at that point.
[01:15:32] Speaker 1: Ma'am, he wasn't in the closet, was he? Um, he was opening the door and entering the closet. I'm not asking you if he was opening the door. I'm at you. The way you told the story just now was that you slammed the door. Didn't you just say that? Yes, I did. And when you slammed the door, you didn't get his foot, right? He didn't have his foot in the door, right?
[01:15:53] Speaker 2: No.
[01:15:54] Speaker 1: He didn't have his hand somewhere so that the door didn't close, right? That's right. The door closed, right? Yes. And for whatever period of time he was outside, right?
[01:16:04] Speaker 2: I guess because it opened pretty much right away.
[01:16:07] Speaker 1: Ma'am. During this time, you were ahead of him inside of that closet, according to you, right? That's right. You had enough time to grab the door, right?
[01:16:19] Speaker 2: No, I slammed it.
[01:16:21] Speaker 1: You, you touched the door, right? Yes. And you slammed the door, right? Yes. It shut, right? Yes. At that point, he wasn't in that enclosed area with you, correct? In that very second, no, he wasn't. In that very second time, you could have continued running out of this door here, couldn't you?
[01:16:41] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:16:42] Speaker 1: You chose not to because you thought about it, right?
[01:16:46] Speaker 2: Um, I don't remember really thinking. I just remember being scared and trying to put distance.
[01:16:53] Speaker 1: You could have, though, run out and put distance between, to use your term, between you and him by running out this door, right?
[01:17:03] Speaker 2: That's right.
[01:17:04] Speaker 1: And if you were to run out this door, you could have then run down the hallway, right? Again, right?
[01:17:09] Speaker 2: That's possible.
[01:17:11] Speaker 1: Well, it's, it's something you could have done, right?
[01:17:15] Speaker 2: Um, if he hadn't stopped me, possibly, yes.
[01:17:17] Speaker 1: Well, wait a minute. You said that you were alone in the closet after you slammed the door for a period of time, a brief period of time, whatever it was. Right? Um, yes. And then, so during that brief period of time, when this person who obviously is in shape cannot catch you, you could have just run around and gone down the hallway. Correct?
[01:17:41] Speaker 2: Um, not if I'm trying to keep him away from me.
[01:17:45] Speaker 1: Ma'am, you could have done that, couldn't you? You weren't alone in the closet, right?
[01:17:50] Speaker 2: Yes, I was.
[01:17:51] Speaker 1: And so if you're alone in the closet, nothing is stopping you from heading in this exit door. I know it's a door, let's just call it a door.
[01:17:59] Speaker 3: Okay.
[01:18:00] Speaker 1: You could have then taken another right. You were familiar with this house, right? Yes. You were familiar with the fact that you could have gone down the hallway, right?
[01:18:08] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:18:09] Speaker 1: And then you could have taken a quick left and you would have been down the stairs, right?
[01:18:12] Speaker 2: No, I probably would have been dead.
[01:18:14] Speaker 1: Well, ma'am, you could have done that, couldn't you? Not unless I was suicidal. Well, you're saying that all of a sudden, between the door to the closet, the one that's in the bedroom, and the door to the closet then in the bathroom, he somehow got a lot faster than he did from this area here going all the way around. You're saying he all of a sudden got a lot faster, right?
[01:18:36] Speaker 5: She has an argument that she mischaracterizes her testimony.
[01:18:40] Speaker 1: Is that your question? Ma'am, the distance from here all the way around to the door is further than the distance from where you were standing inside of the closet to this door here, isn't it? Yes. So you could have continued running through here, couldn't you? Yes. He wasn't in the closet at that time, was he?
[01:19:01] Speaker 2: He was by that point, yes.
[01:19:04] Speaker 1: Well, and so he's now in the closet and you're saying that if he's in the closet and yet he allows you, according to you, because now he's in the closet, he allows you to get up and get the gun. That's what you're saying, because he's not in the closet, right?
[01:19:19] Speaker 2: He entered the closet at the point that I was jumping up on the shelf.
[01:19:23] Speaker 1: So he, so then the door is opening then, not when you told us before, but when you're going up towards the shelf, right?
[01:19:32] Speaker 2: Yes, when I told you before, which was almost immediately after.
[01:19:34] Speaker 1: Ma'am, my question to you is, when you went in, you were able to have time to go towards the shelves, right? Yes. And you just told us now that during that period of time, whatever it was, he was not in the closet, right?
[01:19:53] Speaker 2: At that very moment, he had not opened the door.
[01:19:56] Speaker 1: Right. So then you just said that you were going over to the closet area to get the gun, right? The corner. The corner, right? And as you are in that corner, he's coming in through the door, right?
[01:20:11] Speaker 2: Yes, as I'm beginning to step up onto the shelf.
[01:20:14] Speaker 1: Right. You're beginning to step up. And you're saying now that this person who's coming after you and that is angry has now given you more time and you now have more time to get the gun from up in the closet, right?
[01:20:32] Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct.
[01:20:34] Speaker 1: But man, this is a very small closet, isn't it?
[01:20:38] Speaker 2: No, it's bigger than the cell that I live in.
[01:20:40] Speaker 1: It's bigger than what?
[01:20:41] Speaker 2: It's bigger than the cell that I live in. It's not a small closet.
[01:20:45] Speaker 1: Ma'am, we don't want to know where you live in. Do you understand that?
[01:20:49] Speaker 2: I'm just using that as reference. It's not small.
[01:20:51] Speaker 1: Ma'am, you understand? Did I ask you where you were living? No. We're clear, right? We do not want to know where you're living right now. Do you understand that?
[01:21:01] Speaker 2: Okay, sorry.
[01:21:02] Speaker 1: No need to be. No need to be. Take that attitude that, is there an issue with you with answering the questions as they're posed?
[01:21:13] Speaker 2: Sometimes, but I'm trying to answer them the best I can.
[01:21:16] Speaker 1: So is it an attitude issue with you there? Objection argumentative, your honor moved to strike. Overruled.
[01:21:22] Speaker 2: You may answer. I don't think it is.
[01:21:25] Speaker 1: So this closet here is a small closet, isn't it? No. Objection, ask and answer.
[01:21:33] Speaker 2: Overruled.
[01:21:34] Speaker ?: Not in my opinion.
[01:21:34] Speaker 1: Objection, ask and answer. Overruled.
[01:21:36] Speaker 2: Not in my opinion. Objection, ask and answer. Overruled. Not in my opinion.
[01:21:40] Speaker ?: Objection, ask and answer. Overruled. Not in my opinion. Objection, ask and answer. Objection, ask and answer. Overruled. Not in my opinion. Objection, ask and answer.
[01:21:48] Speaker 1: Objection, ask and answer. Objection, ask and answer. Overruled. Not in my opinion. Objection, actually about 11 and a half feet, isn't it? From the door over there to this door here, isn't it?
[01:21:58] Speaker 2: I don't know, but that sounds somewhat accurate. I would have said 12.
[01:22:03] Speaker 1: It sounds what?
[01:22:04] Speaker 2: I can't hear you. It sounds somewhat accurate, but I don't really know as far as distance, how long 11 and a half feet is.
[01:22:09] Speaker 1: Well, then let's take a look at exhibit number 249. See the measurement of the line from here to there? Do you see what the measurement is? Yes. It's 11 feet 4 inches, right? Yes. So it's a little bit over 11 and a half feet long then, right?
[01:22:38] Speaker 2: Around that, yes.
[01:22:43] Speaker 1: So you're in this closet. And when you're in this closet, you reach out to get this gun, right? Yes. And on direct examination, you remember looking at this photograph, which is exhibit number 70.
[01:23:05] Speaker ?: Yes. Yes.
[01:23:06] Speaker 1: And you indicated that the gun was up in this corner here, right?
[01:23:19] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:23:20] Speaker 1: That's a pretty high shelf there, isn't it?
[01:23:23] Speaker 2: No.
[01:23:24] Speaker 1: How tall are you, ma'am?
[01:23:27] Speaker 2: I believe I'm 5'5 and a half, last time I checked.
[01:23:31] Speaker 1: And this shelving, do you see that there? Yes.
[01:23:38] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:23:39] Speaker 1: It goes almost to the roof. You see that?
[01:23:44] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:23:45] Speaker 1: And you see the thing to the right here, the door? Yes. It is higher than the door, isn't it?
[01:23:53] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:23:54] Speaker 1: You're saying that standing there, in front of that shelf, at 5'6", you can reach up and grab that top there?
[01:24:06] Speaker 2: No, that's not what I'm saying.
[01:24:08] Speaker 1: In fact, you have to get up on the shelves to do it, don't you?
[01:24:11] Speaker 2: Yes, I just got up on one.
[01:24:12] Speaker 1: Yes or no?
[01:24:13] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:24:14] Speaker 1: And when you get up on these shelves, it isn't a situation that you can just get up with one hand, is it?
[01:24:23] Speaker 2: I did.
[01:24:24] Speaker 1: So you were able to somehow put one foot on one of these shelves, right? Yes. And without putting your hand, the other hand, which hand did you grab it with?
[01:24:35] Speaker 2: I don't remember.
[01:24:36] Speaker 1: All right. With the hand that was free that you did not use to grab, that you were able to just put one foot up there, grab the gun, even though you said it was way in the back.
[01:24:46] Speaker 2: It's just sitting right in the corner, not way in the back. There is no back because that's the wall.
[01:24:51] Speaker 1: Well, this is the back part right here. That's the term that you used. Yes. And so you're saying that it's in that corner, you can, according to you, put your foot on one of these shelves without disturbing anything else and reach out and grab the gun, right? That's what I did. And you didn't disturb anything else in that closet, right? Nothing was disturbed, right?
[01:25:19] Speaker 2: No, my foot went right on the edge. Pardon? My foot went right on the edge.
[01:25:23] Speaker 1: And you didn't disturb any of the shoes, right? No. Didn't disturb any of the pants there, right?
[01:25:32] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[01:25:33] Speaker 1: Didn't disturb any of the ties that are there. Nothing was disturbed, right?
[01:25:38] Speaker 2: No. Yes, that's right. Nothing was disturbed.
[01:25:43] Speaker 1: If we take a look at exhibit number 69, this gives us a further out view, doesn't it?
[01:25:56] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:25:57] Speaker 1: And it also includes the bench seat, right?
[01:26:00] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:26:01] Speaker 1: Nothing is disturbed there, right?
[01:26:03] Speaker 2: That's right.
[01:26:04] Speaker 1: And yet you're saying that this very angry man is coming through here, coming after you, right?
[01:26:12] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:26:13] Speaker 1: And that he is very upset about his camera and that you're able to get the gun up here, right?
[01:26:20] Speaker 2: That's right.
[01:26:21] Speaker 1: Is this the same gun that you told the detective that he didn't own? That's right. Can't have it both ways, ma'am. Back then on June 10th of 2008, you did say he did not own a gun, correct? Yes, I did. And no one was even consulting you about the investigation. You initiated that contact, right? That's right. You agree that what you are telling us today is, to be more than fair, inconsistent with that statement, right?
[01:26:51] Speaker 2: That's right.
[01:26:52] Speaker 1: And this thing or the statement about the gun, this didn't come, that you said that it involved the gun, didn't come for years until after you had been arrested, correct?
[01:27:07] Speaker 2: Yes, years it took me to admit it.
[01:27:11] Speaker 1: So the answer is yes, it came years later, right? Yes. Matt, we've reviewed a lot of text messages. We've reviewed a lot of email or some email correspondence and even your journal. And the text messages, there was some exchanges between you and Mr. Alexander that could be defined as heated, correct? Yes. You guys were fighting at some of these points, right?
[01:27:46] Speaker 2: I would say arguing, yes.
[01:27:49] Speaker 1: Okay, arguing then, right? And nowhere in those text messages does he ever threaten you physically, does he?
[01:27:56] Speaker 2: No, he doesn't.
[01:27:57] Speaker ?: He doesn't, does he? That's correct.
[01:27:59] Speaker 1: And there's no email correspondence in which he's threatening you, correct?
[01:28:12] Speaker ?: I'm trying to think.
[01:28:13] Speaker 2: I know we talk about it, but there aren't any threats made.
[01:28:18] Speaker 1: There are no threats, correct? Yes. And there's no police report because you never called the police, right? That's right. There are no individuals that have come in to say that they saw him mistreat you, correct?
[01:28:31] Speaker 2: Physically, that's right. Well, no.
[01:28:35] Speaker 1: You're saying that there are individuals that came in here that say that he mistreated you some other way? Objection or shifting. Orold.
[01:28:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, I do.
[01:28:49] Speaker 1: Okay, so Dan Freeman testified, right?
[01:28:52] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:28:53] Speaker 1: He indicated that he treated you appropriately. Didn't he say that?
[01:28:57] Speaker 2: He did say that.
[01:28:58] Speaker 1: And in fact, there was only one fight that he was present, right? Yes. This is the trip to Havasupai. Do you remember that?
[01:29:06] Speaker 2: Yes, I was mortified about it. Pardon?
[01:29:09] Speaker 1: Yes, I remember that. And do you remember that the reason that there was a fight was that he was trying to make sure that the trip was an enjoyable one, right?
[01:29:19] Speaker 2: I don't remember Dan saying that.
[01:29:22] Speaker 1: Well, do you remember he said that it needed to be enjoyable and that you needed to take out whatever heavy products were in your backpack. Do you remember that?
[01:29:30] Speaker 2: I remember that's what started the argument.
[01:29:33] Speaker 1: Right. And you got mad at him, right?
[01:29:36] Speaker 2: No, he got mad at me. Oh, so Dan Freeman got mad at you? Oh, I thought you were talking about Travis.
[01:29:41] Speaker 1: No, I'm asking about Dan Freeman.
[01:29:42] Speaker 2: No, I've never been mad at Dan Freeman.
[01:29:44] Speaker 1: I'm not asking if you were mad at Dan Freeman. Dan Freeman did not get mad at you then, did he?
[01:29:50] Speaker 2: No, he didn't.
[01:29:51] Speaker 1: And in fact, he indicated he was just trying to make the trip enjoyable because these backpacks can get heavy, right?
[01:29:57] Speaker 2: Yes, something to that effect.
[01:29:59] Speaker 1: And somehow, given what Dan Freeman did, it became a fight between you and Mr. Alexander, right?
[01:30:07] Speaker 2: Um, it sparked a fight, yes.
[01:30:11] Speaker 1: And the way you phrased it, it was Mr. Alexander's fault, right?
[01:30:16] Speaker 2: That time, yes, it was.
[01:30:20] Speaker 1: Even though you're the person who was upset at having to conform to what somebody else wanted you to do, right?
[01:30:31] Speaker 2: Um, I wasn't that upset.
[01:30:34] Speaker 1: Well, you started the fight, not Mr. Alexander, like you're saying, right?
[01:30:37] Speaker 2: No, I took the backpack upstairs and he came in and started screaming at me.
[01:30:40] Speaker 1: So you didn't, did your actions in no way, shape or form, ma'am, contributed to the problems that happened that morning before you went to have a soup bite?
[01:30:51] Speaker 2: No, they definitely contributed.
[01:30:53] Speaker 1: And they started it, didn't they?
[01:30:56] Speaker 2: Um, I didn't think we were arguing, so. So, well, I don't know.
[01:31:02] Speaker 1: Your actions were the ones that started this whole fracas, weren't they?
[01:31:08] Speaker 2: I guess.
[01:31:09] Speaker 1: No, don't say that you guessed, ma'am. You were there, right? Yes, I was there. And you know how the fight started, right?
[01:31:20] Speaker 2: I do.
[01:31:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was because you had an attitude because Daniel Freeman had gotten, got into your stuff and removed items, right?
[01:31:29] Speaker 5: Do you actually have mischaracterized the evidence?
[01:31:33] Speaker 3: Operal, do you may answer?
[01:31:35] Speaker 2: Uh, that's not one I would consider the argument beginning. All right.
[01:31:39] Speaker 1: You don't consider that. In fact, though, we've looked at these text messages and, and we've been talking about whether or not there's any indication that Mr. Alexander ever threatened physical harm to you and you said no, right? Yes. But you didn't. You threatened physical harm to him, didn't you?
[01:31:55] Speaker 2: As a joke. I think I did.
[01:31:57] Speaker 1: No. Yes or no. Didn't you threaten him with physical harm? Yes or no?
[01:32:01] Speaker 2: Um, I don't remember ever threatening Travis with physical harm. Ever.
[01:32:06] Speaker 1: Okay. Let's take a look at one of the exhibits that you entered. Exhibit 443. Start at the top. He says to you, it gets old when you dramatize everything. You stress me out on a regular basis. You have 27 hours and you're moaning about not making PC. You shouldn't hang up on someone trying to help you. Now you are on your own. That's what it says, right?
[01:32:33] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:32:34] Speaker 1: That is not a happy text message, is it?
[01:32:37] Speaker 2: No, it isn't.
[01:32:38] Speaker 1: That is not a joking text message, right?
[01:32:41] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:32:42] Speaker 1: And then you say, nor should you have to. That's your response, right?
[01:32:47] Speaker 2: No, that's.
[01:32:48] Speaker 1: That's not coming.
[01:32:49] Speaker 2: That's you. Nor should I have to.
[01:32:51] Speaker 1: Yes. And then you say, after that, within seconds, I wanted to tell you something about today. It's important and time is of the essence, right? Yes.
[01:33:03] Speaker 2: That's what you tell him.
[01:33:04] Speaker 1: Yes. He responds to you, too bad you shouldn't have hung up on me, right?
[01:33:11] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:33:12] Speaker 1: Still not a joking conversation, right?
[01:33:15] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:33:16] Speaker 1: Still a fight or an argument via text message, right?
[01:33:20] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:33:21] Speaker 1: And then, you say, it was for your own benefit, not mine. I only wanted to tell you because I care about you, right?
[01:33:33] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:33:34] Speaker 1: Now the mood is changing. You only did this because you cared for him, right? Yes. Yes. And so, hanging up on him is because you really love him, right?
[01:33:46] Speaker 2: I guess indirectly it could be that way. Okay.
[01:33:49] Speaker 1: So, you show love by, in this circumstance, hanging up on him, right?
[01:33:54] Speaker 2: If I didn't love him, his swearing wouldn't hurt as bad, so I wouldn't hang up on him, so yes.
[01:33:58] Speaker 1: And you hung up on him, right? And you hung up on him, right? Yes, I did. And you hung up on him because you love him, right? That's what you're saying.
[01:34:05] Speaker 2: I'm saying in an indirect way, it could be construed that way.
[01:34:08] Speaker 1: So, the answer is yes, correct?
[01:34:09] Speaker 2: That's not the direct reason.
[01:34:11] Speaker 1: But, you hung up on him and you're saying that you hung up on him because you love him. Yes or no?
[01:34:19] Speaker 2: Put plainly like that, I would have to say no. Okay.
[01:34:23] Speaker 1: And then he says, whatever Jody, doesn't he?
[01:34:30] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:34:31] Speaker 1: He's upset at that point, right? He, um, I don't know. You think he's happy there? Reduction costs or speculation?
[01:34:40] Speaker 2: Overall, you may answer. No, I don't think that. Pardon? I don't think that.
[01:34:45] Speaker 1: Well, the first text message was at 1653, and we understand that that's seven hours ahead. The text message where he says, whatever Jody is 1657, do you see that? Uh, yes. It's roughly about four minutes later, right? Right. And you told us that you guys were fighting in this conversation, right? Um, yes, we were arguing. Right. During these four minutes that it takes to text message back and forth, right? So it's not a joking conversation, right?
[01:35:20] Speaker 2: Um, not at this point.
[01:35:23] Speaker 1: No. And then you answer almost immediately, I'll whatever you in the nose, Travis.
[01:35:29] Speaker 2: Yes. You think that's funny, right?
[01:35:31] Speaker 1: That's a joke. Yeah, that was his joke that he used to say.
[01:35:34] Speaker 2: Pardon? That was his joke that he used to say. You think that's funny. I'm asking you if you think that's funny. Um. If that's a joke. I was hoping he would think it's funny.
[01:35:43] Speaker 1: Ma'am, I'm asking you if you think that's the joke.
[01:35:46] Speaker 2: The whatever you in the nose.
[01:35:51] Speaker 1: Uh, whatever you in the nose, Travis. Right.
[01:35:54] Speaker 2: Um. Well, that was my goal, so at the time, yeah.
[01:35:58] Speaker 1: So you thought it was a joke, right? Yes. He said that you're in the middle of a fight.
[01:36:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to diffuse his anger.
[01:36:07] Speaker 1: But that's not what it indicates there. Travis, I'm trying to diffuse the anger. It's a argumentative. I'm going to punch you in the nose. She's already said what it indicates.
[01:36:18] Speaker 2: Well, the rule, do me answer. Well, not if you know Travis. That would be a joke.
[01:36:22] Speaker 1: Yes or no, ma'am.
[01:36:23] Speaker 2: You're wrong.
[01:36:24] Speaker 1: So that would be a joke. Well, all right. Let's take a look at the next message. It says, I was just trying to help you. I've hung up. You've hung up on me several times before. Even after I've asked you not to. It's reasonable that I shouldn't tolerate swearing. But again, I'm very sorry. Have a great day. You're still fighting in between there, aren't you? No, I'm trying to ameliorate the situation. The fight isn't over. That's why you're apologizing, right?
[01:36:53] Speaker 2: Um. I guess.
[01:36:57] Speaker 1: So it's not a joke then, right?
[01:36:58] Speaker 2: No, it was a joke. It was a joke.
[01:37:00] Speaker 1: So you say that you grab the gun from this area here. This is exhibit number 70. Up at the top. Without disturbing anything, right? That's correct. And so then, what do you do? What do you do?
[01:37:17] Speaker 2: Right as I'm reaching for it or getting up on the shelf, he's opening the door so I run out the other door. And he follows me and I turn and point the gun at it.
[01:37:26] Speaker 1: Well, let me stop you there. What you're saying is that you're able to get the gun before he opens the door, right?
[01:37:32] Speaker 2: No, it's right, it's contemporaneous with that.
[01:37:35] Speaker 1: So he's opening the door and you're grabbing the gun. Around that time, yes.
[01:37:38] Speaker 2: Okay. Right around the same moment.
[01:37:41] Speaker 1: So if you're down here toward the end here, which is near the door, you agree with me that the gun was near the door, right?
[01:37:50] Speaker 2: When I grabbed it, yes. Pardon? When I grabbed it, yes. No, when it's kept up here.
[01:37:56] Speaker 1: Oh. This is near the door area, isn't it? Yes. And you're saying that that's the time that he's opening the door to get into the closet, right? As I'm going for it, yes. Yes. So you have at least an 11 1/2 to 12 foot head start at that point, don't you? Yes. And with that head start, which is the length of the closet, by the time he's opening the door, if you chose to, you could have been at this door, couldn't you? Yes. You chose to escalate this, didn't you, even though you had that 12 foot head start, didn't you?
[01:38:32] Speaker 2: No, I didn't choose to escalate it. I was trying to deescalate it.
[01:38:36] Speaker 1: And you chose to deescalate the situation by, according to you, getting a handgun, right? Yes. Just like in this situation here, in Exhibit 443, he tried to deescalate the fight by telling him, "Oh, whatever you in the nose, Travis," right?
[01:38:55] Speaker 2: Yes, except that was a joke.
[01:38:57] Speaker 1: Yes. Yes or no?
[01:38:58] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:38:59] Speaker 1: So then, that you've now grabbed the guy. Let's take a look at Exhibit number 72. You see the closet door there? Yes. That's the one that you came out of, right? Yes.
[01:39:24] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:39:25] Speaker 1: Where do you go?
[01:39:26] Speaker 2: Into the bathroom. Pardon? Into the bathroom.
[01:39:29] Speaker 1: This is the bathroom that we're looking at, right? Yes. And so you go in there, where do you stand? In the center. Yes. So this would be the center, right about here, right?
[01:39:40] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know, it's a little farther than that.
[01:39:46] Speaker 1: So you're even further away than this picture shows, into the bathroom, right?
[01:39:52] Speaker 2: Um, I'm right about there.
[01:39:55] Speaker 1: And you run in, into the bathroom, don't you?
[01:39:58] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:39:59] Speaker 1: You're in a hurry, right?
[01:40:01] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:40:02] Speaker 1: You want to get away, right?
[01:40:04] Speaker 2: Um, I want him to not get close to me.
[01:40:07] Speaker 1: Well, you want to get away. That's what's going on, right?
[01:40:10] Speaker 2: I want him to not get near me.
[01:40:12] Speaker 1: That's what's going on. Right. And so you're going quickly, aren't you?
[01:40:16] Speaker 2: Yes, it was frantic.
[01:40:19] Speaker 1: You're not going leisurely, right?
[01:40:21] Speaker 2: Definitely not.
[01:40:22] Speaker 1: And so when you get inside here, you, what, run in here? Is that what you do?
[01:40:29] Speaker 2: I took a few steps and turned around. All right.
[01:40:32] Speaker 1: The few steps that you take, are they quick running steps or are they just leisurely steps?
[01:40:37] Speaker 2: They are quick steps.
[01:40:41] Speaker 1: Like running, right? Because you want to get away from the circumstance according to you, right?
[01:40:45] Speaker 2: Yes, but the floor was wet and it was kind of slippery.
[01:40:50] Speaker 1: But you had socks, right?
[01:40:52] Speaker 2: Um, I don't remember.
[01:40:54] Speaker 1: Well, then let me help you refresh your recollection here. Take a look at exhibit 162. See that photograph there? Yes. You see that foot there, right? Yes. That is your foot, right? Yes. There is some footwear on there, correct? Yes. That is a sock, right? Yes.
[01:41:15] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:41:16] Speaker 1: Or are you saying it's a shoe? Which one is it?
[01:41:18] Speaker 2: It's a black sock.
[01:41:20] Speaker 1: So, you run in here, and you say it's wet, right?
[01:41:30] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:41:31] Speaker 1: But, if anybody is more wet, it's him, right? Yes. Because if you're talking about slipping, he's the one that's more apt to slip because he's the one that's wet, correct? Correct. Not you, because you are not wet, right?
[01:41:47] Speaker 2: Um, yes, that's right.
[01:41:49] Speaker 1: And the socks provide better traction, don't they? Yes. Yes. And so, what you do then is, according to you is, you then go in here, and then you pivot, right? Or turn around. Yes.
[01:42:05] Speaker ?: Right?
[01:42:06] Speaker 1: That's correct. You run in here, you don't run that way. It's easier to go to the right, isn't it, than it is to come to the center of the bathroom, isn't it?
[01:42:17] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know. I wasn't thinking of left or right or forward or what, just getting--
[01:42:25] Speaker 1: It's closer to go to the right, down the hallway, than it is to come into this area in the bathroom, isn't it?
[01:42:33] Speaker 2: Um, I would say it's equal distance.
[01:42:36] Speaker 1: All right, so it's equal distance in this area that you go to. Uh, and then you turn around, right? Which takes some time.
[01:42:45] Speaker ?: Right?
[01:42:46] Speaker 2: Um, yeah, half a second. It does take some time to pivot, doesn't it?
[01:42:51] Speaker 1: You have the gun, which hand do you have the gun in? Both. So, um, you have it out like this with both hands outstretched? Yes. Correct?
[01:43:01] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:43:02] Speaker 1: And so you have the gun outstretched, and he's still not there yet, right? He's still in the closet.
[01:43:07] Speaker 2: He's coming out the door as I turn.
[01:43:09] Speaker 1: So he's at the door now, right? How far away are you from the door? Um, I don't know.
[01:43:14] Speaker ?: I'm somewhere in the middle of the bathroom.
[01:43:15] Speaker 2: You're in the middle of the bathroom. And he's standing at the door, right? He's not standing, he's running toward me.
[01:43:18] Speaker ?: So he's running very fast, right?
[01:43:19] Speaker 2: Yes. Almost without giving you a time to react, right?
[01:43:21] Speaker 1: That's the way you described it, right? Um, I don't know, he just was running at me as I turned around. Right. And he was really close at the time you turned around, right?
[01:43:25] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know, he just was running at me as I turned around. Right.
[01:43:30] Speaker 1: And he was really close at the time you turned around, right?
[01:43:34] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know, he just was running at me as I turned around. Right.
[01:43:43] Speaker 1: And he was really close at the time you turned around, right?
[01:43:47] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know. He was coming at me. He got down.
[01:43:55] Speaker 1: I understand he was coming at you. I'm talking about how close he was. He was close, right?
[01:43:58] Speaker 2: He was, um, closer than I wanted him to be at that moment. But I don't know what you mean by close.
[01:44:05] Speaker 1: Well, how close is him being closer than you wanted him to be? How close is that?
[01:44:11] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know. I just didn't want him to get me.
[01:44:18] Speaker 1: I understand that you didn't want him near you. But how close is he to you? Was he as close as you and the court reporter? Objection and asked an answer. She said she doesn't know how close he was. Overruled.
[01:44:27] Speaker 2: Um, at one point, yes, but that distance was closed.
[01:44:30] Speaker 1: Okay, and that distance was closed after, or the distance was closed, and then you shot him, though. In other words, he got closer before you shot him.
[01:44:39] Speaker 2: Um, I think it was all simultaneous. I think it was all simultaneous.
[01:44:46] Speaker 1: You think what?
[01:44:47] Speaker 2: It was all simultaneous.
[01:44:49] Speaker 1: You don't have any problem remembering this part of the event, do you?
[01:44:53] Speaker 2: When you break it down that much, yes.
[01:44:56] Speaker 1: I'm not, it's something that, according to you, you said on direct examination, I've never killed anyone before. Do you remember saying that? Yes, I remember. So it's kind of a highlight in your life, wouldn't you agree? Or a low light, however you want to look at it. A defining moment. Right. And as a defining moment, to use your term, it's something that'll stick with you, won't it? Yes. And so, I'm asking about a defining moment in your life. How far away this individual was when you had the gun out? The gun that you brought from Wairika, didn't you? The objection that's characterized as a testimony is a compound question.
[01:45:34] Speaker 3: Restate your question.
[01:45:35] Speaker 1: You brought the gun from Wairika, didn't you?
[01:45:37] Speaker 3: No.
[01:45:41] Speaker 1: So, how far away was he?
[01:45:44] Speaker 2: He was running toward me, so the distance varied.
[01:45:48] Speaker 1: Well, he couldn't have been running toward you very long, because if he's here, in the breach of the door, and you're right a little bit down here, that's within four feet, isn't it?
[01:46:00] Speaker 2: I guess. I don't know how long it was.
[01:46:03] Speaker 1: Well, then maybe if we take a look at the measurements here, it'll tell us a little bit, okay? You see that the door is 33 inches, right?
[01:46:30] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:46:31] Speaker 1: And that's where he was standing, right?
[01:46:33] Speaker 2: He was never just standing, he was in motion.
[01:46:36] Speaker 1: That's where he went through in the breach way when you saw him coming at you according to you, correct? That's correct. And the distance from here to here, if you want, I'll show you, it's 36 inches. Do you see that?
[01:46:53] Speaker 2: No, where?
[01:46:54] Speaker 1: It's right here.
[01:46:56] Speaker 2: Okay.
[01:46:57] Speaker 1: So that's three feet, right?
[01:46:59] Speaker ?: Um, yes.
[01:47:00] Speaker 1: And if you just take that out and you stand right there, isn't that about where you told me you were, about three feet from the door?
[01:47:06] Speaker 2: No, I didn't say that, it was more in the center of the bathroom.
[01:47:09] Speaker 1: It was what?
[01:47:10] Speaker 2: In the center, more toward the center of the bathroom.
[01:47:12] Speaker 1: All right, if it was in the center, can you see how far this is here? Yes. Can you see if that's a six or no?
[01:47:17] Speaker 2: That looks like a six.
[01:47:18] Speaker 1: All right, so if we go six and three feet, that's nine feet, right?
[01:47:26] Speaker 2: Yes, but that's not accurate.
[01:47:28] Speaker 1: So you're saying whoever measured this didn't measure this accurately? No, not the measurements.
[01:47:34] Speaker 6: Don't correlate to where she was, these talking apples and oranges.
[01:47:38] Speaker 1: Objection to the speaking of the nature of the objection.
[01:47:42] Speaker 3: I'm going to overrule the objection. You may restate your question.
[01:47:47] Speaker 1: The distance from here to here, you told us, is three feet, right?
[01:47:53] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:47:54] Speaker 1: The distance from here to there is about nine feet, right?
[01:47:59] Speaker 2: Um...
[01:48:01] Speaker 1: Objection foundation, she is on the...
[01:48:04] Speaker 6: You know, she didn't make these measurements.
[01:48:07] Speaker 3: It's stained.
[01:48:08] Speaker 1: All right, this says six feet, right? Yes. This says 36 inches, right? Yes. So that's nine feet total, right? Yes. And you were standing, you said, about the middle of this room, right? Right about here. That's what you said, right?
[01:48:27] Speaker 2: A little more, right around there somewhere, yes.
[01:48:30] Speaker 1: Right, right about the middle. And if we take it across, that would be where the six was. Do you see that?
[01:48:35] Speaker 2: It looks about to scale, yes. Pardon? It looks like it's to scale.
[01:48:40] Speaker 6: Okay. I'm going to object to the accuracy of the measurements, Judge, in terms of where he's asking her and the measurement of where she was standing.
[01:48:50] Speaker 3: Approach, please.
[01:48:51] Speaker ?: Proceed.
[01:48:56] Speaker 1: So you said that you were right here, correct?
[01:48:59] Speaker 2: Right about there.
[01:49:00] Speaker 1: And then he's coming through the door, right?
[01:49:02] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:49:03] Speaker 1: And you have your hands outstretched with the gun, right? Yes. So that, in terms of how close he is to you, that brings him the length of your arms, that brings him that much closer to the muzzle of the weapon, doesn't it? Yes.
[01:49:19] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:49:20] Speaker 1: And he's moving fast, isn't he?
[01:49:22] Speaker 2: Yes, he is moving very fast.
[01:49:25] Speaker 1: And you said it happened very, very quickly, right? Yes. He's not wearing any clothing, correct?
[01:49:31] Speaker 2: Correct.
[01:49:32] Speaker 1: And he comes at you, right?
[01:49:33] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:49:34] Speaker 1: And according to you, he is on you when you shoot him, right?
[01:49:40] Speaker 2: Not quite on me. I think the gun went off and then he impacted me right shortly after that.
[01:49:48] Speaker 1: What I'm asking, ma'am, is you have your hands outstretched, right?
[01:49:51] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:49:52] Speaker 1: And he's coming towards you, because you've already told us that you're here, correct?
[01:49:57] Speaker 2: Right about there.
[01:49:59] Speaker 1: And that he is coming through the door, right? Yes. And you have your hands outstretched toward facing him, don't you?
[01:50:07] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:50:08] Speaker 1: And that he keeps coming towards you, and he's not stopping, is what you told us, right?
[01:50:14] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:50:15] Speaker 1: And in fact, according to your testimony on direct, he falls on top of you, right?
[01:50:19] Speaker 2: He lunges at me like a linebacker.
[01:50:21] Speaker 1: He lunges at you, and that's when the gun goes off, right?
[01:50:25] Speaker 2: It went off prior to...
[01:50:27] Speaker 1: Prior to him lunging at you?
[01:50:29] Speaker 2: No, prior to impacting me.
[01:50:31] Speaker 1: So in other words, he's lunging at you and is almost on you, and then the weapon, according to you, goes off, right?
[01:50:38] Speaker 2: Um, something like that. He lunged, he went to lunge as the gun was going off, and then he impacted me.
[01:50:46] Speaker 1: So he's already moving sort of in the air towards you when the gun goes off, right? Is that what you're saying?
[01:50:54] Speaker 2: Yes, he was moving like for my waist.
[01:50:58] Speaker 1: And he comes towards you. And he comes towards you, right? Yes. And you keep saying like a linebacker. What does that mean?
[01:51:05] Speaker 2: Because linebackers kind of get down low and crouch, and then they attack, whatever they do, and that's kind of what it reminded me of. He didn't get down with his hand on the ground, but he got down low, and he impacted my torso. No, no, no, no.
[01:51:20] Speaker 1: I'm not asking where he impacted your torso. I want to know how he was standing such that you can define it as a linebacker stance.
[01:51:31] Speaker 2: Because it reminded me of a linebacker the way he--
[01:51:35] Speaker 1: I understand that it reminded you of that. What was he doing? Yes.
[01:51:39] Speaker 2: Finish your answer. He-- when he lunged at me, he was-- he crouched like a linebacker kind of. That's why I say that, because that's what it reminded me of.
[01:51:52] Speaker 1: I understand that's what it reminded you of. How does a linebacker crouch, ma'am? Explain that to me. You just keep defining a linebacker crouching by saying he crouches like a linebacker. How?
[01:52:03] Speaker 2: He got down kind of low.
[01:52:06] Speaker 1: Okay, does that mean that he was all the way down on the ground? Is that what you're saying?
[01:52:10] Speaker 2: No, it's almost like he dove, kind of like that.
[01:52:15] Speaker 1: So he's-- he dove at you, and he's very close, correct?
[01:52:19] Speaker 2: Um, yeah, he was pretty close, I guess. Too close for my comfort.
[01:52:27] Speaker 1: And as he's diving towards you, that's when the gun goes off, right? I think so, yes.
[01:52:34] Speaker 2: Well, now-- It was contemporaneous. It all happened so fast.
[01:52:38] Speaker 1: And you do have your hands outstretched, right? Yes. And from then on, you say that you don't remember anything, right?
[01:52:45] Speaker 2: No, I remember a little bit after that.
[01:52:48] Speaker 1: Well, okay. What happened to the gun?
[01:52:52] Speaker 2: I-- it got knocked out of my hand.
[01:52:54] Speaker 1: How did it get knocked out of your hand, then? The impact.
[01:52:57] Speaker 2: The impact from what?
[01:52:58] Speaker 1: From Travis hitting me. So he actually fell on top of-- he was that close that he fell on top of you, right?
[01:53:05] Speaker 2: Um, we both fell together, but he didn't fall on top of me. I was trying to prevent him from getting on top of me. He lunged at me and hit me and knocked the gun out of my hand, and we both fell backward toward the trash can. I don't understand.
[01:53:23] Speaker 1: You said that you're out here with the gun outstretched, right? Yes. And that he's lunging towards you, right?
[01:53:29] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[01:53:30] Speaker 1: And he's looking at you, though, isn't he? When he's lunging.
[01:53:34] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know where he's looking. I don't know where he was looking. You could see his face, right? I don't recall, like, looking in his eyes, seeing his face.
[01:53:48] Speaker 1: I'm not asking you if you're looking at his eyes. I'm asking you whether or not you could see his face.
[01:53:54] Speaker 2: Um, not really. Like, he was kind of like-- Okay.
[01:54:00] Speaker 1: So what you're saying, then, is that he is more like a bull rather than a linebacker because he's got his head down and he's charging like a bull with his head down. That's what you're saying, right?
[01:54:11] Speaker 2: Not quite down like that. Maybe in between. That would be accurate.
[01:54:15] Speaker 1: All right. So he's in between here. If he's got his head down, as you tell us that he does, and you say you can't see his face. Well, that's what you say, right?
[01:54:26] Speaker 2: No, I just don't remember whether I noticed his face or not. He was just this ball of fury coming at me, and that's what I remember.
[01:54:34] Speaker 1: And you said you couldn't see his eyes. That's what you just said, right? I don't remember seeing his eyes. So that means you didn't see his eyes, right? That doesn't mean that. It just means I don't remember looking into his eyes. So if he's down in this position that you're talking about with his head down like that, how could he possibly know to come after you if he's looking down? How's he gonna do? Feel his way around?
[01:54:59] Speaker 5: Sustained. He had his head down.
[01:55:02] Speaker 1: That's what you said, right?
[01:55:06] Speaker 2: He was like a, I can just describe it as like a linebacker unless I get up and act it out, which I would like to not do if possible.
[01:55:16] Speaker 1: Then do it. Go ahead. Show us how he was standing immediately before or how he was sitting or crouching immediately before this happened. If you could do it just from there. He -- No, no, no. Go ahead and do it. Just stand. Your Honor, may we approach? May.
[01:55:40] Speaker 3: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to ask that you go back to the jury room for approximately five minutes. We will call you back in approximately five minutes. Please remember the admonition. You are excused.
[01:55:50] Speaker 4: Please ask for the jury.
[01:55:57] Speaker 3: The record will show the jury has left the courtroom. Please be seated. Council, you may approach. Mr. Martinez, you may proceed outside the presence of the jury.
[01:56:13] Speaker 1: Can you just step to the left and then come down here? Don't you come all the way around.
[01:56:19] Speaker 3: Can we approach? You may. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to ask that you leave the courtroom for a few minutes, approximately five minutes, and then we will call you back. I'm going to ask that the cameras stop recording at this time.
[01:56:32] Speaker ?: Please be seated.
[01:56:33] Speaker 3: The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant, and all counsel. Mr. Martinez, you may continue.
[01:56:39] Speaker 1: Ma'am, if you would, my stand up, go to the left, and show me the posture of Mr. Alexander immediately before he rushed you, according to you. As he was running-- No, no. Just show me. That's what I'm asking you to do. Not talk. Show me. Show me the linebacker pose. He got down and--
[01:56:59] Speaker 2: Well, show me.
[01:57:00] Speaker 1: Show me the linebacker pose. That's what I'm asking for you to do. Okay.
[01:57:04] Speaker 2: He went like that, and he turned his head and grabbed my waist. Just like that, correct?
[01:57:08] Speaker 1: Pretty much. And he grabbed your waist, right?
[01:57:10] Speaker 2: I can't say it's just like that, but that's what I remember. Well, no, just shh.
[01:57:14] Speaker 1: I want-- without talking, just show me the pose.
[01:57:18] Speaker 2: He got down like that?
[01:57:20] Speaker 1: Like that. All right. Go ahead and have a seat then. And ma'am, and you said that this happened right about here. Correct?
[01:57:31] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know. Somewhere in the center of the bathroom. Right.
[01:57:35] Speaker 1: So how is it, ma'am, that if you are shooting him, and that's the first thing that happens, how is it then, ma'am, that the showcasing, Exhibit 111, then landed in blood?
[01:57:49] Speaker 5: Objection caused by speculation. She's a ballistic exactly.
[01:57:53] Speaker 2: Well, we're rolled. It didn't land in blood.
[01:57:59] Speaker 1: You see Exhibit 111, right?
[01:58:01] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:58:02] Speaker 1: That's the casing that was involved in this case, wasn't it?
[01:58:06] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:58:07] Speaker 1: There was a casing that was ejected, wasn't it?
[01:58:09] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:58:10] Speaker 1: And when you say that this happened, there wasn't any blood on the floor, was it?
[01:58:14] Speaker 2: That's correct. Correct.
[01:58:16] Speaker 1: This was the first, if you will, blow, correct? Yes. And this is how the casing landed. Do you see it?
[01:58:23] Speaker 2: That's not how it landed from the blow.
[01:58:26] Speaker 1: Ma'am, you do see the casing there, don't you? Yes. After it came at you, ma'am, and that happened, did you go down?
[01:58:41] Speaker 2: We both went down.
[01:58:42] Speaker 1: You went down on your back, right? Yes.
[01:58:45] Speaker ?: I went on my back.
[01:58:46] Speaker 2: Did you strike your head? I don't recall striking my head that time. Okay.
[01:58:49] Speaker 1: So the answer is no. You did not strike your head.
[01:58:51] Speaker 2: Objection. I don't know. I don't think I did, but I don't know.
[01:58:54] Speaker 1: And was he on top of you? How was he? How was it? He landed to the side of me and was grabbing at my clothes. Okay. So he landed to which side of you?
[01:59:00] Speaker 2: The right or the left? The right.
[01:59:02] Speaker 1: And so he landed to the right side, and now he's got this gunshot where? I didn't know he had a gunshot. I'm not asking you if you knew he had a gunshot. I didn't know he did. I'm asking you. He's got this gunshot, and what's he doing?
[01:59:30] Speaker 2: He's very pissed off, and he's trying to grab me.
[01:59:34] Speaker 1: And he's speaking to you, right? He was screaming obscenities at me. What's he saying to you after he was shot? Tell me what he was saying. I don't remember the words. You can't remember a single word that he screamed at you afterwards? No, I don't. I don't. And he's screaming this loudly. Screaming implies that he's doing it loudly, correct? Yes. And so he is to your left or to your right? You're facing up. So is he to your left or right?
[02:00:08] Speaker 2: My right.
[02:00:09] Speaker 1: That means he's toward the tub, correct?
[02:00:12] Speaker 2: He would be on that side, but not near the tub, I don't think.
[02:00:15] Speaker 1: But it would be on that side, correct? Yes, that's correct. And you're saying he wasn't bleeding at that time? I'm not saying that.
[02:00:22] Speaker 2: I'm just saying, well, I don't know. You haven't asked me anything about that. Pardon? I don't think you've asked me anything about that.
[02:00:28] Speaker 1: I'm asking you right now. Are you saying that he wasn't bleeding?
[02:00:31] Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying that.
[02:00:32] Speaker 1: So he was bleeding at the time, right? I don't remember seeing any blood at that moment. So when he's down there, you don't see any blood, right?
[02:00:41] Speaker 2: No.
[02:00:42] Speaker 1: So that, for example, at that point, there can be no blood in the bathroom. We can agree on that, right?
[02:00:48] Speaker 2: No, I don't agree with that.
[02:00:50] Speaker 1: There was blood somewhere in the bathroom immediately after you shot him other than around him? I don't know. Well, you were there, right? Yes. You said that you ran in this direction, right? Yes. When he was chasing you, did you happen to see the blood over here on the left side when you were running in that direction? There was no blood there when I was running in that direction. And was there any blood down here when you ran there the first time? No. How about any blood right here where it says number five? That's right here. No. So there was no blood when you shot here then, right?
[02:01:34] Speaker 2: Not at the moment the gun went off.
[02:01:37] Speaker 1: How about immediately after he was struck? Was there any blood?
[02:01:42] Speaker 2: I don't remember. Weren't you looking at him or anything? I wasn't, like, examining him or looking. But you weren't looking at him? Right after the gun went off?
[02:01:58] Speaker 1: Yes, right after the gun went off.
[02:02:00] Speaker 2: I think I closed my eyes really tight. I don't remember seeing him. I just remember getting hit really hard and we fell.
[02:02:08] Speaker 1: So you remember going down and you don't remember looking at his face or anything like that, right? Not at that point. Well, aren't you, according to you, you don't know if he's been shot. Isn't he still a threat? Definitely. Right. And you're not trying to get away at that point, right? I was. Well, no. You said you had your eyes closed and you were just lying there. Didn't you just say that?
[02:02:30] Speaker 2: No, I closed my eyes, I think, as the gun began to go off.
[02:02:33] Speaker 1: All right. You opened them up at some point, right?
[02:02:36] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:02:38] Speaker 1: Did you open them up when he was lying right next to you on your right-hand side?
[02:02:42] Speaker 2: I believe I did.
[02:02:43] Speaker 1: And so then you see him bleeding, right? I didn't look at him. So you never looked at him, but he's cursing at you though, right?
[02:02:50] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:02:51] Speaker 1: He's cursing at you just like he was before, right?
[02:02:54] Speaker 2: Um, maybe not the same words, but he was cursing at me.
[02:02:57] Speaker 1: He was cursing, he was cursing at you, which you say precipitated this killing, right? Um, yeah. And so then you say that you're down on the ground and he's still cursing, whatever the words may be, right? Yes. And you're not looking at him now, right?
[02:03:13] Speaker 2: No.
[02:03:14] Speaker 1: You're not rolling away from him now, right?
[02:03:16] Speaker 2: I'm attempting to get away at this point.
[02:03:20] Speaker 1: With your eyes closed, right?
[02:03:22] Speaker 2: No.
[02:03:23] Speaker 1: Your eyes are open now, right?
[02:03:24] Speaker 2: I believe they are open, yeah.
[02:03:26] Speaker 1: And you're not looking at the source of the danger then?
[02:03:29] Speaker 2: Um, no.
[02:03:31] Speaker 1: You're not?
[02:03:32] Speaker 2: No.
[02:03:34] Speaker 1: Why not? If you were looking at him before, and this is the reason that this person you claim may want to be threatening you, why don't you look at whatever the source is? So then you can try to get away again.
[02:03:46] Speaker 2: I don't need to because I already know what he's doing at that point. You think he's what? I didn't need to because I already knew what he was doing at that point.
[02:03:54] Speaker 1: Yes. You knew he was cursing, right? Yes. You knew he was right next to you, right? Yes. You knew he was grabbing at you, right? Yes. And so, you just got your eyes closed and you don't even know where you're going to go.
[02:04:06] Speaker 2: Um, I believe I said my eyes weren't closed at this point.
[02:04:09] Speaker 1: Okay, so your eyes are closed for how long?
[02:04:11] Speaker 2: I don't know. I just blinked hard, I guess. I don't know.
[02:04:14] Speaker 1: So then you do open your eyes, right?
[02:04:16] Speaker 2: Yes. Then do you see blood? I don't remember seeing blood.
[02:04:22] Speaker 1: So you don't even see blood at that point then, right?
[02:04:24] Speaker 2: No.
[02:04:25] Speaker 1: And he's still not dead, right?
[02:04:28] Speaker 2: Definitely not. He's very angry.
[02:04:30] Speaker 1: He's very angry and this is seconds afterwards, right?
[02:04:33] Speaker 2: Yes. Is he on all fours now? Um, he's on the side of me grabbing at my clothes and grabbing at me.
[02:04:38] Speaker 1: So he's on your right side grabbing at you, right?
[02:04:42] Speaker 2: Yes. Is he punching at you? Um, no. Is he hitting you? No.
[02:04:50] Speaker 1: Is he doing anything else?
[02:04:52] Speaker 2: He's just trying to, it seemed like he was trying to get control of me and I was trying to push him away.
[02:04:59] Speaker 1: Throughout this whole thing where you are having this confrontation to him, do you ever tell him to stop? Do you ever tell him to do anything?
[02:05:09] Speaker 2: I think I screamed stop when I pointed the gun at him.
[02:05:12] Speaker 1: And when he's next to you on the right hand side, did you say anything to him? I don't remember. Are you saying that you're having a hard time remembering things that are happening now that you've shot him? Yes. So it appears then that your memory becomes faulty immediately upon you shooting him.
[02:05:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, things get very foggy from there.
[02:05:42] Speaker 1: Immediately the shot takes him down and it creates a fog for you. Is that what you're saying?
[02:05:49] Speaker 2: It begins to create a fog.
[02:05:51] Speaker 1: So, but you weren't struck by the shot, were you?
[02:05:55] Speaker ?: No.
[02:05:57] Speaker 1: In fact, you don't have really any injuries as a result of killing him, do you? Other than the one to your left finger, left ring finger, correct?
[02:06:09] Speaker 2: That's the only visible injury. Pardon? That's the only visible injury.
[02:06:12] Speaker 1: I'm talking about visible injuries, right? That's the only visible injury that you have, the one to your left ring finger. Even though, according to you, he slammed you down, right, when he got out of the shower. And then he slammed you down again when he was coming at you and you had to pull the gun, according to you, right?
[02:06:28] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:06:29] Speaker 1: And he's also grabbing at you while you're down on the ground and he's not being gentle about it, right? That's correct. No bruising, no anything other than just a thing to the injury to the left ring finger, right? I don't know if my skull was bruised. Pardon? I don't know if my skull was bruised. Aside from that, but do you get medical care for that? No. Do you seek medical care for your finger?
[02:06:52] Speaker 2: No, I did not. Not professional medical care.
[02:06:58] Speaker 1: Well, you do have an injury to that left ring finger, don't you?
[02:07:02] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:07:04] Speaker 1: When you arrive out in West Jordan, Utah, and you see Mr. Burns, you did have an injury to your left finger, correct?
[02:07:13] Speaker 2: We're talking about two different injuries. No.
[02:07:16] Speaker 1: Well, ma'am, you just told me when we were talking about this killing that, yes, you injured your left ring finger. Do you remember just telling me that just now, no more than two minutes ago? Yes, I was referring to this injury. Ma'am, were we really talking about this particular injury at that time? I didn't know. You were just talking about the injury. Oh, no, you don't know we were talking about the killing, ma'am?
[02:07:40] Speaker 2: You talked about the injury to my left finger.
[02:07:42] Speaker 1: Ma'am, what have we been talking about the whole afternoon? Overruled.
[02:07:51] Speaker 2: June 4th. Pardon?
[02:07:53] Speaker 1: June 4th. Right, we haven't mentioned any other date, right?
[02:07:57] Speaker 2: Not to my recollection.
[02:07:59] Speaker 1: You've been here throughout these proceedings and you've been answering or you've been asked questions, right? Yes. And as we were talking about it just now, I asked you, isn't it true that the only injury as a result of this incident was this injury to your left ring finger? And you said, yes, do you remember saying that? I might have, but that's not what I meant. Well, ma'am, you did say it, didn't you? I don't know. And in fact, I followed it up by saying, and you didn't seek medical care. Do you remember me asking that?
[02:08:34] Speaker 2: I thought you meant about my skull.
[02:08:35] Speaker 1: No, do you remember me asking you that?
[02:08:37] Speaker 2: Yes, I remember.
[02:08:38] Speaker 1: And do you remember that you said, well, not professional medical care, do you remember that? I was referring to the splint Travis made for my finger. I know that that's what you're telling me now, but the line of questioning before involved the shooting. That's what we were talking about, right?
[02:08:54] Speaker 2: Yes, but then it was my left finger. And Mr. Alexander was dead after that, wasn't he? Well, not immediately after that.
[02:09:04] Speaker 1: No, no, he grabbed the knife that you stabbed him with, right? So he wasn't dead immediately after that, right?
[02:09:11] Speaker 6: She actually crossed her circulation and she said she hasn't remembered.
[02:09:16] Speaker 1: Restate your question. And we're talking about Mr. Alexander, an individual that you just shot, right? So it's not like we're talking about him providing any medical care for you, are we?
[02:09:29] Speaker ?: That's right.
[02:09:31] Speaker 1: You're the person who has come in here, at least we know that you've indicated that you did kill Mr. Alexander, correct? Yes. The only incident where this could have happened was on June 4th of 2008, right? Yes. So this issue of him providing a splint or splinting your finger really doesn't have anything to do with June 4th of 2008, does it? No. And you did say that the only injury you received was to your left ring finger on June 4th of 2008, right?
[02:10:02] Speaker 2: I didn't say that.
[02:10:04] Speaker 1: Well, yes, you did. And in fact, you used the word visible injuries. Do you remember using that term? Yes, I do. She said that it's not what she said. Do you remember that you also indicated, well, I may have had some injuries to my head, right? Yes. Those were the only injuries that you sustained on June 4th of 2008, and you, remember I asked you about that, and you said yes.
[02:10:28] Speaker 2: That's not how I understood your question.
[02:10:35] Speaker 1: So then he's down, ma'am. And he's to your right. What happens then?
[02:10:45] Speaker 2: I break away from him and he screams out, "fucking kill you, bitch."
[02:10:48] Speaker 1: So then, even though you've already shot him, he's been grabbing at you, he does say, "I'll fucking kill you, bitch," right?
[02:10:55] Speaker 2: I don't think he said, "I'll," I just remember those words are in my head. He may have said that, may have not. I just heard "fucking kill you, bitch."
[02:11:01] Speaker 1: Okay, what are the words? Let's hear the words one more time so we can get them right.
[02:11:05] Speaker 2: I heard him say, "fucking kill you, bitch."
[02:11:08] Speaker 1: Aren't these the same words that you indicated that you heard when he was doing his pirouette outside of the shower? "Fucking kill you, bitches," aren't they the same words?
[02:11:20] Speaker 2: Um, I don't think they were the same. He was still screaming at me, though, when he was coming out.
[02:11:24] Speaker 1: So then what did, just so that we're clear, what did he say as he's getting out of the shower?
[02:11:29] Speaker 2: As he's getting out of the shower, he called me a fucking idiot and said, "A fucking five-year-old can hold a camera better than you."
[02:11:35] Speaker 1: But then, when he's down after being shot, he says, "fucking kill you, bitch," right?
[02:11:41] Speaker 2: After I broke away from him, right after he screamed it out, when he couldn't grab me anymore.
[02:11:47] Speaker 1: He's trying to grab you, and he's still on the floor, but you're able to get away, right? Yes. I thought you said that he was this really, remember when you had the conversation with Detective Flores, and you told him, "Well, he's a really strong guy. He's a wrestler in high school." Do you remember saying that? Yes. You're saying that you're able to get away from this man, who's a wrestler in high school, who's very strong on the ground? That's what you're saying, right? Yes. And then what do you do?
[02:12:17] Speaker 2: I don't really remember. I just remember, I don't remember anything at that point, so I would be speculating.
[02:12:24] Speaker 1: So you don't remember a single solitary thing after that, right?
[02:12:30] Speaker 2: There are a few little pieces that have come back since, but not immediately after, I don't remember.
[02:12:35] Speaker 1: Okay, what is it that, the pieces that have come back? Tell me what you remember about this, whatever pieces you remember.
[02:12:43] Speaker 2: At one point, I remember dropping the knife and screaming. But that's something that has come to you since, right? Since, yes. It came to me more recently.
[02:12:56] Speaker 1: You don't remember that? All right, what else?
[02:12:58] Speaker 2: The others are more vague, so I'm not sure.
[02:13:04] Speaker 1: If they're vague, then we don't want to hear them. Yeah. Where were you standing when you have this recollection of dropping the knife and screaming?
[02:13:13] Speaker 2: I don't remember the exact position, but I was in the bathroom because it hit the tile.
[02:13:17] Speaker 1: And that's all that you remember with regard to this particular event, correct?
[02:13:29] Speaker 2: From that point to that point, yes. Judge, may we approach? Yes.
[02:13:34] Speaker 1: Ma'am, with regard to the killing on June 4th of 2008, it was you that committed that murder, that killed Travis Alexander, correct?
[02:13:46] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:13:47] Speaker 1: Nobody else was involved, right?
[02:13:49] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[02:13:50] Speaker 1: And in terms of the, we don't need any more than the fingerprint evidence that we have, you're not disputing that the fingerprint evidence indicates that you were there, right?
[02:14:00] Speaker 2: That's right.
[02:14:01] Speaker 1: Same thing with the DNA evidence, it was you that was there, right?
[02:14:04] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:14:06] Speaker 1: Ma'am, after this shot rang out, you said that you went into a fog, right?
[02:14:14] Speaker 2: Yes, I began to go, things get foggy after that point.
[02:14:19] Speaker 1: So, with regard to the camera, can you tell us what happened to the camera?
[02:14:25] Speaker 2: I don't remember what I did with the camera.
[02:14:27] Speaker 1: You acknowledge though that immediately prior to the, what you describe as the killing, the camera was right here in this area next to the tub, correct?
[02:14:37] Speaker 2: That's the last place I saw it rolling. I don't know if it got kicked around or what, I don't know.
[02:14:44] Speaker 1: But you acknowledge though that, take a look at Exhibit 162, first let's look at the date and time. You acknowledge that this says, or was taken on June 4th, 2008, at 5:30 to 16, correct? Yes. What time was your understanding that the roommates got home?
[02:15:24] Speaker 2: I didn't know. No.
[02:15:26] Speaker 1: So, you didn't, they, you don't, did you even know if they were there?
[02:15:31] Speaker 2: Um, I don't remember if they were there or not at that time.
[02:15:37] Speaker 1: Well, do you remember that one of the things that you told us on direct examination was that, when there were roommates, the two of you had to be careful in your sexual, um, tris, so that, as not to, um, not awaken, but let the others know what was going on. Do you remember telling us that? That's correct. So, if this was going on, on that date, it would be fair to say, based on what you believe, that they were not home, right?
[02:16:09] Speaker 2: This part of the date?
[02:16:11] Speaker 1: Yes, this part.
[02:16:12] Speaker 2: No, I don't think that would have made a difference.
[02:16:15] Speaker 1: What I'm saying, though, is, during, when this happened, you believed that there were no roommates there, correct?
[02:16:22] Speaker 2: I don't know what time they got home. I don't know.
[02:16:29] Speaker 1: And, you are wearing socks, right? Yes. And there is, what appears to be, a zipper on that foot, correct? Yes. If we look at this further, to orient ourselves, this is Mr. Alexander's head, correct? Yes. Blood right there, right? Yes. And that's his foot, correct?
[02:16:58] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:16:58] Speaker 1: And given the way that the lights are, in this particular photograph, the bathroom is in this direction, correct? Yes. And you would agree with me, that if the camera, exhibit 249, was last seen here, do you see that? Yes. And things happen the way you say they happened. We now have this photograph that you were the one that moved that camera, right?
[02:17:44] Speaker 2: It could have been us both. I don't know. I remember moving it.
[02:17:49] Speaker 1: Well, based on what you tell us, there's this gunshot that rings out, right? Yes. And then you don't remember anything, right?
[02:17:59] Speaker 2: I didn't say that. I said it got foggy after that point. The point where I can't remember anything is after he said, after he threatened my life.
[02:18:07] Speaker 1: What's that?
[02:18:08] Speaker 2: After he threatened my life.
[02:18:09] Speaker 1: Well, what is it that he said?
[02:18:11] Speaker 2: Fucking kill you, bitch.
[02:18:12] Speaker 1: So after that, after fucking kill you, bitch, you don't remember anything else, right?
[02:18:17] Speaker 2: No. Not except the one thing that I described.
[02:18:21] Speaker 1: Right. But you do remember, though, that as you ran down this hallway, you were not carrying the camera with you, right?
[02:18:29] Speaker 2: Um, no, not the first time I ran down the hallway.
[02:18:35] Speaker 1: No, of course not. You were concerned for your life, you told us, right? Yes. And you told us that the camera landed next to the tub, right? Yes. And so, if this photograph was snapped at the time that we've agreed that it snapped, and the camera, the last time you see it, is next to the tub, and then you describe what happens, that Mr. Alexander is down next to the tub, then it was you that moved that camera, right? Objection caused her speculation. She said she doesn't remember. Sustained. With regard to Mr. Alexander, ma'am, the last memory that you have of him is that he was down on the ground, correct?
[02:19:22] Speaker 2: Um, yes. Yes.
[02:19:26] Speaker 1: And the last memory that you have of him is after you shot him, right?
[02:19:30] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:19:31] Speaker 1: You never saw him walking around, did you? No, I didn't. And so, if you didn't, assuming he didn't get up and walk around, and assuming you did shoot him, and assuming that the camera is where you told us that it was, then this camera, to take this photograph, had to be moved, right?
[02:19:54] Speaker 2: Um, yeah, yeah, it had to be moved.
[02:19:58] Speaker 1: And you would acknowledge that you did the moving, right? Objection caused her speculation. She said over and over again, she doesn't remember. Overruled, you may answer.
[02:20:07] Speaker 2: Only under that theory, that would be right. Well, you see him right there, ma'am?
[02:20:12] Speaker 1: Mr. Alexander? Mr. Alexander? Yes. No, take a look at it. I've already seen it. All right. Are you saying that in the condition that Mr. Alexander is in exhibit number 162, and you were there, it's your opinion that he, in that condition, could move the camera? I'm not saying that. So you did move the camera, right?
[02:20:33] Speaker 6: Again, objections on the argumentative, she's already said she doesn't know what happened afterwards. Overruled.
[02:20:40] Speaker 1: Overruled.
[02:20:41] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[02:20:42] Speaker 1: And that camera ended up, as we now know, in a washing machine, right? You know that, right? Yes. You have this horrible incident that happens upstairs, and the camera's being used to photograph Mr. Alexander, right? In the shower, yes. Right. And then the camera's dropped, and then we see the photographs here. You would acknowledge, then, ma'am, that under those set of facts, it was you who put that camera in the washing machine.
[02:21:14] Speaker 2: Yes. I guess. I don't remember, but that would be logical.
[02:21:18] Speaker 1: Sure, because Mr. Alexander never left the upstairs bathroom, right? I think that's right. And you would acknowledge, ma'am, that if you did that, it would be an indication from you, at least you're saying that you're in a fog and that you don't remember, but it would be certainly an indication of your mental state back then that you picked up that camera and put it in the washing machine, wouldn't it? Yes. And it would be an indication, ma'am, that you knew what happened? Yes, I guess.
[02:21:53] Speaker 2: I don't know why it went in the washing machine.
[02:21:55] Speaker 1: And ma'am, we know that these were, this photograph was deleted from the camera, correct? Correct. We know that he's dead after this, right? After this, yes. And we know, as you just told us, that there was nobody else there, that no roommates were there, right? Yes. So, if he's dead, no roommates are there, this photograph is snapped, and it's deleted, you're the one that deleted it, aren't you?
[02:22:32] Speaker 2: That would make sense. I don't remember deleting it.
[02:22:34] Speaker 1: I'm not asking you if you remember now. I'm not asking that at all. I'm asking you, given the circumstances that we have here, you're the one that deleted it, right?
[02:22:44] Speaker 2: I would have to say yes.
[02:22:46] Speaker 1: And in fact, deleting something is not a, giving your expertise in cameras and photography, deleting something is not a one-step process, right?
[02:22:58] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[02:22:59] Speaker 1: And you were not familiar with this camera, were you?
[02:23:03] Speaker 2: Not prior to June 4th, correct.
[02:23:06] Speaker 1: And so what this required you to do is, and I understand that you're going to say that you don't remember, I'm not asking that. But I, wouldn't you acknowledge then, that it took some mechanical movement and thinking, and mechanical movement, I mean fingers, and some thought process on your part, in order to delete these images, right? Cost or speculation? I would agree with that. And you would agree that the deleting these items from the camera was not in any way necessary for you to do prior to leaving Mr. Alexander's home?
[02:23:59] Speaker 2: I don't understand what you mean.
[02:24:01] Speaker 1: Well, there is nothing, you acknowledge that there is nothing that was pressing about or threatening about the camera that required you to delete these images, right?
[02:24:18] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know what you mean by threatening.
[02:24:23] Speaker 1: Well, in order for you to delete them, ma'am, you have to view them, don't you?
[02:24:29] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:24:30] Speaker 1: And if you view them, then the decision is made. And I know you're going to say I don't remember, but you acknowledge then that a decision is made by you to delete this photograph, right?
[02:24:41] Speaker 2: There must have been, yes.
[02:24:43] Speaker 1: And you would agree then that if the police don't find this photograph, that would be beneficial to you, wouldn't it, in terms of your culpability involving Mr. Alexander's death?
[02:24:56] Speaker 2: I would not agree with that. Okay.
[02:24:58] Speaker 1: Exhibit number 16, so you think this helps you in your case? I don't agree with that either. 163. There are the, that's the floorboard, would you agree? Yes. And this is the hallway that you claim that you ran down, correct?
[02:25:22] Speaker 2: Yes, that's the one.
[02:25:24] Speaker 1: And that would mean that this up here would be Mr. Alexander, correct?
[02:25:29] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:25:30] Speaker 1: And that reddish substance would be blood, right?
[02:25:33] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:25:34] Speaker 1: And again, if we apply the same analysis that we did before, you would acknowledge that the person who deleted this photograph was you.
[02:25:45] Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess.
[02:25:49] Speaker 1: There were other things that were done to the scene. Let's take a look at exhibit number 67, followed by exhibit 68. You see 67?
[02:26:10] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:26:12] Speaker 1: There is blood there, isn't there, ma'am?
[02:26:15] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:26:16] Speaker 1: That's not your blood, right?
[02:26:19] Speaker 2: I don't think my blood is there.
[02:26:21] Speaker 1: That would be Mr. Alexander's blood, right?
[02:26:24] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:26:25] Speaker 1: And you would agree that to the right of that, it appears that there is a more, if you will, different pattern. In other words, the pattern on the right is not as dark as the one on the left, right?
[02:26:38] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:26:40] Speaker 1: And ma'am, you would agree that if you had socks on, which we know that you were dead, and you were walking through blood, that this would be the kind of pattern that your socks would leave, right?
[02:26:57] Speaker 5: I don't know.
[02:26:58] Speaker ?: I don't know.
[02:26:58] Speaker 5: There's a foundation. There's no knowledge. She was wearing socks at that time.
[02:27:03] Speaker 2: Overall. I'm not sure.
[02:27:06] Speaker 1: Take a look at exhibit 130. Do you see that?
[02:27:13] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:27:14] Speaker 1: Would you agree, then, that we've seen the photograph, and that's exhibit number 162. And if we look at, this is exhibit 162. Do you see it? Yes. And you told us that, to this end over here, is the bathroom. Over here, do you see that? Yes. And if we look at this exhibit, which is 130, you would agree that the bathroom is in this direction, correct? Yes. So that if his foot, that we were looking at, would be right about where my pen is, or right in front of that door, right? Yes. And the door that's behind it is the door that you claim was the door that he was banging his head on, back on August 7th of 2000, I'm sorry, in August of 2007, right? Yes. And you would agree, ma'am, that if this is the pattern that we have here, and his head is in this direction, as we see it in the picture, then, because of the way the blood is flowing down, this is where his head was resting. Right here.
[02:28:32] Speaker 2: I think, I don't know, I guess.
[02:28:35] Speaker 1: He would not be the person that would be leaving these marks here to the right, would he? Because he wasn't standing, was he?
[02:28:44] Speaker 5: Objection. She's already said she has no memory. It would call for speculation.
[02:28:49] Speaker 1: Stand. 1262. Is he standing there, ma'am? No. Would you acknowledge that, based on everything that you know, he's not going to stand after that?
[02:28:59] Speaker 5: Yes, you know. Congratulations.
[02:29:02] Speaker 2: So, I would, I would be very inclined to agree with that.
[02:29:08] Speaker 1: You told us, ma'am, that there was just this shooting when he was coming at you from the bathroom, right? Yes. I'm sorry, from the closet, my mistake. Yes. And that as he came at you, then you showed us the pose, and then, according to you, the shooting happened, right?
[02:29:29] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:29:31] Speaker 1: You would agree, ma'am, that the shooting where it occurred is not near what we are, what is pictured in exhibit 98, correct? Yes. You weren't bleeding, even though you said that you had an injury to your left ring finger, you weren't bleeding that profusely to put all this blood here, right?
[02:29:57] Speaker 2: Well, my left ring finger wasn't bleeding at all, so.
[02:30:00] Speaker 1: So, the answer is no.
[02:30:01] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[02:30:03] Speaker 1: That is not your blood, right?
[02:30:06] Speaker 2: No, I don't think it is.
[02:30:08] Speaker 1: And, again, based on what we know, what you know about this case, and based on the fact that you acknowledge you've done the shooting and acknowledging that that was your foot in this photograph, you would have to agree that a person would have to be standing, or Mr. Alexander would have to be standing, for that blood to be placed there, right? Yes, I would think.
[02:30:31] Speaker ?: Yes, I would think that.
[02:30:31] Speaker 5: Ma'am, one of the things that happened, or that was found on the body, was a glass. Are you aware of that?
[02:30:34] Speaker 4: Yes. Are you aware of that? Yes. Now, before the murder, there was no one of the things that was found on the body, was a glass.
[02:30:43] Speaker ?: Are you aware of that? Yes. Now, before the murder, there was no glass up in the bathroom, right?
[02:30:45] Speaker 1: There was no one of the things that happened, or that was found on the body, was a glass. Are you aware of that?
[02:31:02] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:31:03] Speaker 1: Now, before the murder, there was no glass up in the bathroom, right?
[02:31:10] Speaker 2: There was, it was under the sink.
[02:31:13] Speaker 1: It was under the sink then, right?
[02:31:15] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:31:16] Speaker 1: So then, you would agree that if it was under the sink, before the murder, and it was found on top of him, after the murder, you would agree that you were the person, you would acknowledge that you were the person that went underneath the sink, got the glass, correct?
[02:31:36] Speaker 2: I would acknowledge that.
[02:31:38] Speaker 1: And you would acknowledge that you used that glass to try to clean up, or throw it on the floor of that bathroom.
[02:31:49] Speaker 2: I don't know what I did with it.
[02:31:51] Speaker 1: If there were lots of water in the bathroom after the killing, for example, if you take a look at exhibit number 118, do you see that? The water marks here? Yes. You would acknowledge that these water marks in red colored blood, or what appears to be blood, you would acknowledge that you're the person that created those marks, correct? Yes. And you would also acknowledge, ma'am, that these reddish spots here are Mr. Alexander's blood, right? Yes. And you would indicate that he was in that area bleeding, correct? Yes. And exhibit 125 shows us the relationship between the closet to the right, correct? Yes. And the end of the hallway into the bedroom, right?
[02:33:07] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:33:08] Speaker 1: And ma'am, you would agree if we've now seen that there was staining 128 here, do you see that? And it's concentrated there. You see that? Yes. And we've heard that it was nowhere else in the top full from that bedroom. And we also know that you were the only one walking around in 162 wearing socks. You see that? Yes. You would acknowledge, ma'am, that prior to walking out from here and leaving, you would acknowledge that you took those socks off, correct?
[02:34:00] Speaker ?: I don't know.
[02:34:01] Speaker 1: Well, you would acknowledge that there is no blood anywhere else other than in this area here. Do you see that?
[02:34:08] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:34:09] Speaker 1: So you would acknowledge that if you did have blood on your socks and there was water on the floor and you were walking in it, you would acknowledge that there may be, based on whatever experience you have, there may be other blood throughout wherever it was that you stepped. Do you actually have to answer that?
[02:34:30] Speaker 5: Do you have any cause for speculation?
[02:34:32] Speaker 1: Overall, you may answer.
[02:34:35] Speaker 2: Um, can you please repeat that?
[02:34:41] Speaker 1: You would acknowledge that you took your socks off before you walked into the bedroom. I don't know. I don't know. Because you knew. I'm not saying that you remember it, because you knew that they had blood on them and you didn't want to get the rest of the bedroom dirty. Okay.
[02:34:58] Speaker 6: Do you agree? Yeah. She said she doesn't remember even removing her socks.
[02:35:02] Speaker 3: Sustained.
[02:35:03] Speaker 1: Ma'am, you did leave the house though, didn't you?
[02:35:10] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:35:11] Speaker 1: You would acknowledge that you left, right?
[02:35:15] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:35:16] Speaker 1: And you would acknowledge that there is no record anywhere in Arizona of you ever being in Arizona other than this killing, right?
[02:35:25] Speaker 4: No, I disagree with that.
[02:35:27] Speaker 1: Well, are there receipts, for example, from the places that you filled up with gas?
[02:35:32] Speaker 2: No, at one time there would have been surveillance video, but no.
[02:35:36] Speaker 1: You think there was surveillance video? Okay. Um, isn't it true, ma'am, that as you drove out of Arizona, one of the things that you did was that you used the gasoline in those three cans to fill out, to put in your car? Uh, will you repeat that?
[02:35:59] Speaker 2: Will you repeat that? I'm sorry.
[02:36:01] Speaker 1: You would acknowledge, ma'am, that in Arizona, you filled up the car from the gas, the three gas cans that were in your possession filled with gas?
[02:36:14] Speaker 2: I didn't have three gas cans in my possession.
[02:36:16] Speaker 1: Ma'am, do you remember in Pasadena that there were three separate transactions? Do you remember that?
[02:36:23] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:36:24] Speaker 1: There was one at the pump. Do you remember that? Yes. There was also one inside the store, if you will. Do you remember that one? Yes. For approximately 10 gallons. You remember that, right?
[02:36:36] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:36:37] Speaker 1: And then there was another transaction inside the store. You acknowledge that, right?
[02:36:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the two gallons or something.
[02:36:45] Speaker 1: Right. 2.7 gallons, right? Yes. There were three transactions in Pasadena, correct? Yes. You acknowledge that there are two gas cans that Mr. Brewer gave you, correct? Yes. And you acknowledge that you bought one gas can from Walmart, right? Yes. I understand that you say that you returned it, but you did have, at least at some point, you acknowledge, have three gas cans, right? Yes.
[02:37:11] Speaker 2: In Salinas, I did. Pardon? In Salinas, I did.
[02:37:15] Speaker 1: And so, the gas that you had in those gas cans, you placed in your car in Arizona, right?
[02:37:22] Speaker 2: No, I didn't need to do that.
[02:37:25] Speaker 1: Well, ma'am, do you remember that you told us on direct examination that the next time that you could remember anything was when you were way out in the middle of the desert?
[02:37:38] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[02:37:39] Speaker 1: And do you remember the testimony of Detective Larry Gladish, who indicated that the phone call to Mr. Alexander's telephone was 57 miles north of Kingman? Do you remember that?
[02:37:50] Speaker 2: No, but okay, I'll assume he said that.
[02:37:55] Speaker 1: But you do remember that you testified that you were out in the middle of the desert, right?
[02:38:01] Speaker 2: Yes, I do.
[02:38:02] Speaker 1: And do you remember that you said that you stopped, right?
[02:38:07] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:38:08] Speaker 1: And do you remember that you said, well, then, well, I got rid of the gun, right?
[02:38:12] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:38:13] Speaker 1: So you would acknowledge, ma'am, that even though immediately after this killing happened, you say you went into a fog. Do you remember saying that?
[02:38:25] Speaker 2: It was in a fog, yes.
[02:38:27] Speaker 1: Yes. You were in a fog, right? And one of the things that we know from your own admission was that there was a gun that was involved, right?
[02:38:36] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:38:37] Speaker 1: That's what you used to shooting, right? Yes. And so this gun, you tell us, you took it out to the desert, didn't you?
[02:38:48] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:38:49] Speaker 1: You were the one that removed it from the house, right? Yes. If you didn't know what was going on, if you were in a fog, ma'am, which means that you don't know the status of your current events, or the status of what's going on, would you agree that there would be no need to take the gun if you were unaware of your status?
[02:39:18] Speaker 2: I would not agree with that.
[02:39:21] Speaker 1: Even though you're in a fog, there's a decision, a knowing decision, a voluntary movement that is made to take the gun on your part, right?
[02:39:32] Speaker 2: I think you're getting fog confused. My memory was in a fog. I don't remember what happened after those things.
[02:39:38] Speaker 1: I'm not asking you if you remember that, please. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking whether you acknowledge that you removed the gun from the crime scene. Yes. And you do acknowledge that if you're in a fog, you're in a fog about everything, not just certain specific things, right?
[02:40:01] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[02:40:02] Speaker 1: Well, it's your fog.
[02:40:04] Speaker 2: Is that a question?
[02:40:07] Speaker 1: Yes, it is a question. Isn't it?
[02:40:09] Speaker 2: What is it?
[02:40:10] Speaker 1: It's your fog, isn't it? Yes. And with regard to this particular fog that you are in, why would you even think of taking the gun unless you really knew what was going on?
[02:40:30] Speaker 2: I could only speculate because I don't remember.
[02:40:38] Speaker 1: If you were in a fog and you didn't know what you were doing, why take the gun, ma'am?
[02:40:45] Speaker 6: Yes. Argumentative.
[02:40:47] Speaker 2: Overall, I don't remember taking the gun. I remember throwing the gun.
[02:40:54] Speaker 1: All right. Throwing the gun. If you remember throwing the gun, you remembered what the gun came from, don't you?
[02:41:04] Speaker 2: I recognize it as Travis's gun, yes.
[02:41:06] Speaker 1: I know you say that it's Travis's gun, but shortly before embarking on this trip to Mesa, Arizona on May 28th of 2008, your grandfather had a .25 caliber gun taken during a burglary, right? Yes. And you knew about that, right?
[02:41:24] Speaker 2: I found out after I got back into town.
[02:41:27] Speaker 1: The answer is yes, you did know, didn't you?
[02:41:30] Speaker 2: Yes, afterward.
[02:41:33] Speaker 1: You did know on May 28th of 2008 that there was a burglary at your grandfather's house, correct?
[02:41:38] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:41:39] Speaker 1: And you're telling us that on June 4th, or after the murder, you stopped at the side of the road, right? Yes. And according to you, you have one of the implements that was used to kill Mr. Alexander, correct? Yes. If you didn't think that you had done anything wrong, and you were in this fog that you weren't thinking, why get rid of it? Why get rid of it?
[02:42:13] Speaker 2: I never said I didn't think I didn't do anything wrong.
[02:42:17] Speaker 1: Oh, so you acknowledge then that you believe that you did something wrong with regard to Mr. Alexander then, right?
[02:42:25] Speaker 2: I believe that something very bad had happened.
[02:42:28] Speaker 1: Yes or no, ma'am.
[02:42:30] Speaker 2: Um, I'm not, how did you word that again?
[02:42:34] Speaker 1: Do you believe that you did something wrong with regard to Mr. Alexander? Yes. And that belief that you had was with you on the side of the road to the point that you got rid of the gun, right?
[02:42:53] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:42:54] Speaker 2: Well, I just threw it, so yeah.
[02:42:56] Speaker 1: You did get rid of the gun, right?
[02:42:59] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:43:00] Speaker 1: And this knowing that you had done something wrong was preceded by your removing the gun from the crime scene. Right?
[02:43:13] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:43:14] Speaker 1: So you would agree then that at the crime scene, you knew that what you had done was wrong, correct?
[02:43:24] Speaker 2: I would say that would be accurate, but I don't remember.
[02:43:29] Speaker 1: And you were trying to alter the crime scene, weren't you?
[02:43:34] Speaker 2: It appears that way. Well, no.
[02:43:36] Speaker 1: Based on what you know, there was an altering of the crime scene, wasn't there? Yes. The gun was taken, right?
[02:43:45] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:43:46] Speaker 1: And we know that you took it, right?
[02:43:49] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:43:50] Speaker 1: We also know that there was no knife that was found up in the bathroom area, right? Yes. So we know that you took it, right?
[02:44:03] Speaker 2: I don't remember having the knife at all afterward.
[02:44:07] Speaker 1: But there was no knife up there, right?
[02:44:11] Speaker 2: Not. I haven't heard any testimony about that. So I would...
[02:44:15] Speaker 1: You would acknowledge, ma'am, that? Exhibit 193. That Mr. Alexander was staffed. You would acknowledge that, right?
[02:44:34] Speaker 4: Yes.
[02:44:37] Speaker 1: And you would acknowledge that that stabbing was with the knife, right?
[02:44:45] Speaker 4: Yes.
[02:44:47] Speaker 1: And according to your version of events, you would acknowledge that that stabbing was after the shooting, according to you, right?
[02:44:59] Speaker 2: I don't...yes, I don't remember.
[02:45:02] Speaker 1: I'm not asking you if you remember, ma'am. I'm asking if you acknowledge that it would be you that did it, correct? Yes. And you would acknowledge that a lot of the stab wounds, and if you want, we can count them together, including the ones to the head, or to the back of the head, and to the back of the torso, correct?
[02:45:26] Speaker 2: Okay. I don't want to count them. I don't know.
[02:45:29] Speaker 1: I'll just take your word for it. Would you like to take a look at the photograph? No. So, if he is being stabbed in the back, would you acknowledge, at that point, that he's no threat to you? Right? Objection, calls, or speculation? Overwhelmed. I don't know. I don't know. Well, if he's already been shot, according to you, and he's facing away from you, how could he have possibly beat any threat to you?
[02:46:06] Speaker 4: I could only guess. I don't know what you're asking me.
[02:46:10] Speaker 1: Well, with regard to the -- you were here when the medical agent testified about the wound to the throat. Do you remember that?
[02:46:18] Speaker 4: Yes.
[02:46:19] Speaker 1: With regard to that wound, ma'am, you would acknowledge that that was, in terms of the stab wounds, you would acknowledge that that was the last wound in the sequence of events. Yes.
[02:46:32] Speaker 6: So, she doesn't remember.
[02:46:34] Speaker ?: Did you get it?
[02:46:35] Speaker 3: Overall, that wasn't --
[02:46:37] Speaker 6: How could she acknowledge the sequence of the stabs, that she doesn't know what they -- when -- doesn't have any memory of them?
[02:46:43] Speaker 3: That wasn't the question. Overall, do you may answer the question?
[02:46:48] Speaker 4: Are you talking about his testimony?
[02:46:51] Speaker 1: Yes.
[02:46:52] Speaker 4: I disagree with the secrets of events.
[02:46:56] Speaker 1: Would you agree that you're the person who actually slit Mr. Alexander's throat from ear to ear?
[02:47:09] Speaker 4: Yes.
[02:47:10] Speaker 1: Would you also agree that you're the individual that stabbed him in the upper torso? Yes. And you're doing all of this according to your version of events. You're doing this to this individual after you have already shot him, right? Yes. Correct?
[02:47:39] Speaker ?: I believe so.
[02:47:40] Speaker 1: Well, no. Do you remember previously talking to us about how he was coming at you and he was this horrible man with his mean face? Do you remember telling me that?
[02:47:57] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:47:58] Speaker 4: I didn't say he was horrible.
[02:48:00] Speaker 1: Okay. Thank you for correcting me, but do you remember telling us that he was a mean man?
[02:48:08] Speaker 2: Not today. Well, previously.
[02:48:10] Speaker 1: Previously, you did say that he was a mean man, correct? I think I did, yes. And on this particular occasion, you told us that he was cursing at you, right? Yes. And that he threw you down, right?
[02:48:25] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:48:26] Speaker 1: That he chased you down, right?
[02:48:30] Speaker 4: Yes.
[02:48:31] Speaker 1: And this is the individual that you shot first, right?
[02:48:36] Speaker 4: I didn't know if I shot him, it just went off.
[02:48:41] Speaker 1: The gun went off, right? You can at least acknowledge that, correct? Yes. That's something that you did here, correct? Yes. Ma'am, one of the things that we also know is that there was this rope that was involved earlier in the evening, or in the day, at 1 o'clock. Do you remember telling us about that, about 1:30? Yes. And it involved this sexual interlude with you and Mr. Alexander, right?
[02:49:12] Speaker 4: Yes.
[02:49:13] Speaker 1: And you told us that it went behind the headboard?
[02:49:17] Speaker 4: Yes.
[02:49:18] Speaker 1: The police did not find a rope there, correct?
[02:49:24] Speaker 4: Yes.
[02:49:27] Speaker 1: You took that rope, didn't you? Yes. Why would you take that rope, ma'am, if you were in the fog? I don't know.
[02:49:37] Speaker 4: I don't remember taking it.
[02:49:39] Speaker 1: The rope, according to you, didn't have anything to do with the killing, did it?
[02:49:46] Speaker 4: No, not that I remember.
[02:49:49] Speaker 1: Well, but you acknowledge that there was this rope that was taken, right?
[02:49:56] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:49:57] Speaker 1: Don't you also acknowledge that you were the one that threw it away?
[02:50:01] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:50:02] Speaker 1: So then you would acknowledge that you're the person that took it, right?
[02:50:06] Speaker 4: Um, yes.
[02:50:07] Speaker 1: And even though you were in this fog, as you call it, you knew, as you're walking in this fog, to go looking around for this particular rope, as you say, right?
[02:50:19] Speaker 4: Um, I don't know.
[02:50:22] Speaker 1: Well, you did say that you did take it, right?
[02:50:26] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:50:27] Speaker 1: And in fact, you remember where you threw it away, right?
[02:50:31] Speaker 4: Um, I think it was in a dumpster. Right.
[02:50:37] Speaker 1: You said you threw it away in a dumpster, right? Yeah. Well, other than that, it would show that you had been there, ma'am. Why take the rope and then get rid of it? I don't know.
[02:50:52] Speaker 4: Maybe for that very reason. I don't know.
[02:50:55] Speaker 1: So you did take the rope then. You also changed clothing, right?
[02:51:00] Speaker 4: Um, I think I did. I don't...
[02:51:04] Speaker 1: Well, you said that you pulled off the side of the road in the desert, right?
[02:51:08] Speaker 4: Yes.
[02:51:09] Speaker 1: And that you said that you went to the trunk of the car, right?
[02:51:12] Speaker 4: Yes.
[02:51:13] Speaker 1: Isn't it true, ma'am, that that's where you claimed to have the gas cans?
[02:51:17] Speaker 4: That's where they were.
[02:51:19] Speaker 1: Pardon?
[02:51:20] Speaker 4: Yes, that's where they were.
[02:51:21] Speaker 1: And so the gas cans and the gas were in the back with the water, right?
[02:51:25] Speaker 4: Yes, the case of water and my suitcase.
[02:51:28] Speaker 1: And you found that you had some blood on you, correct? Yes. And back then, that was at the time that there was this stop or security checkpoint before Hoover Dam, right?
[02:51:42] Speaker 4: I pulled over before that checkpoint.
[02:51:45] Speaker 1: Right. You were not so much in a fog that you didn't know that the checkpoint existed, right?
[02:51:52] Speaker 2: I did not know that the checkpoint existed.
[02:51:56] Speaker 1: Well, you just told me that was when the checkpoint was there. Do you remember telling me that just now?
[02:52:02] Speaker 2: I came to know this existence when I drove up to it or when there was a sign or something.
[02:52:07] Speaker 1: But conveniently or to your advantage, you stopped the car before you got to the checkpoint, right?
[02:52:16] Speaker 2: A long time before the checkpoint when I called Ryan or texted somebody or Leslie or someone.
[02:52:22] Speaker 1: So the answer is yes, correct?
[02:52:24] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:52:25] Speaker 1: And one of the things that you did was that you got the water from the trunk, right?
[02:52:33] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:52:34] Speaker 1: You cleaned your hands, right?
[02:52:36] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:52:37] Speaker 1: And you changed your socks or put some shoes on, correct?
[02:52:46] Speaker 2: I put socks and shoes on, I think. Right.
[02:52:50] Speaker 1: And you took the clothes, the bloody clothes that you had on, you took those off, right?
[02:52:54] Speaker 2: I think I did.
[02:52:58] Speaker 1: Well, do you remember testifying that you threw them away, along with the gun?
[02:53:04] Speaker 2: I don't recall throwing my clothes out in the desert.
[02:53:07] Speaker 1: But you did change in anticipation of the checkpoint, right?
[02:53:12] Speaker 2: No, I didn't know there was a checkpoint until I reached it.
[02:53:15] Speaker 1: Well, you will acknowledge that this changing and washing of hands occurred before you got to the checkpoint, whether you knew or not that the checkpoint was there.
[02:53:27] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[02:53:28] Speaker 1: And you would agree that it was to your advantage to have clean hands and clothing that is not soiled with blood if you're going to go through a checkpoint, correct?
[02:53:44] Speaker 2: That wasn't my line of thinking, but I would agree with what you said.
[02:53:47] Speaker 1: And then you are making some calls at that time, aren't you?
[02:53:52] Speaker 2: Prior to the checkpoint, yes.
[02:53:54] Speaker 1: You have the, I guess the ability to say, I'm going to look through the car to see if I can find my charger, right?
[02:54:04] Speaker 2: I wasn't looking for my charger, but I looked through the car.
[02:54:09] Speaker 1: You were looking through the car then when you pulled over, right? Yes. And when you pulled over, you found the charger, according to you, underneath the seat, right? Yes. And that allowed you to make some telephone calls, right?
[02:54:24] Speaker 2: Not right away because there was no reception. Right.
[02:54:27] Speaker 1: But you were, you made some telephone calls before you reached the Arizona-Nemada border, right?
[02:54:33] Speaker 2: Yes. I turned my phone on and it just took a while to place a call because the car kept dropping.
[02:54:39] Speaker 1: It was before the checkpoint, right? Yes. And while you were, were you driving at that time when the telephone was in a position to make calls out? I believe, yes. So when it first came on so that it had the ability for calls to be made, how far was it to the checkpoint?
[02:55:04] Speaker 2: It felt like an hour. It felt like an hour?
[02:55:07] Speaker 1: You know where Cayman is? No. And when this telephone came on, you started to make telephone calls, right?
[02:55:22] Speaker 2: I attempted to. I was only able to send, I think, text messages.
[02:55:26] Speaker 1: I realize that you're talking about text messages. I'm telling, I'm talking about telephone calls. You were able to call Ryan Burns, right?
[02:55:35] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:55:36] Speaker 1: And you were, and even though you were in this fog that you're telling us about, you were able to call him and make up a lie, right?
[02:55:45] Speaker 2: Um, the fog that I was referring to relates to my memory.
[02:55:51] Speaker 1: Right. It relates to your memory. So you, you could have told Mr. Burns that you were with Mr. Alexander, but you didn't, right?
[02:55:59] Speaker 2: That's right.
[02:56:00] Speaker 1: Instead, you made up a story, didn't you?
[02:56:02] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:56:03] Speaker 1: So this fog that you're talking about, it wasn't so heavy that it prevented you from thinking and making up a lie.
[02:56:15] Speaker 2: Um, yes, that's right.
[02:56:19] Speaker 1: You made up a lie that you had lost your charger, right? Yes.
[02:56:26] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:56:27] Speaker 1: You made up a lie that you had gone to a gas station to get the charger, right?
[02:56:31] Speaker 2: No, that's not what I told him.
[02:56:34] Speaker 1: And so, Mr. Burns is full of crap when he tells us that.
[02:56:38] Speaker 2: No, he just has a poor memory on some things.
[02:56:41] Speaker 1: And you know that based on that one limited time that you met with him in West Jordan, Utah, correct?
[02:56:53] Speaker 2: No, I know that from all his inconsistent statements to police. Yes.
[02:56:57] Speaker 1: But you only met him one time, right?
[02:57:00] Speaker 2: Um.
[02:57:01] Speaker 1: As a romantic interest. Yes. And so, you also told him that you got lost, right?
[02:57:09] Speaker 2: Um, I did say that.
[02:57:13] Speaker 1: That was also not true, correct?
[02:57:16] Speaker 2: Um, well, technically it was, but not for the reason I was telling him.
[02:57:22] Speaker 1: No, you actually, ma'am, you knew where you were going. You were going over to Mr. Alexander's house. You knew that, right?
[02:57:28] Speaker 2: No, I got lost after leaving his house is what I mean. So, technically I did get lost, but that's not why I told Ryan that.
[02:57:35] Speaker 1: Even though there's this technicality, are you telling us that when you told Mr. Burns that you got lost, that you were clear with him that the reason you got lost was that you'd killed Mr. Alexander and you had been driving and you'd been lost that way? Or did you tell him that you got lost a different way?
[02:57:53] Speaker 2: I don't remember what way. I think I made up something stupid and I certainly didn't tell him I got lost about Travis. I told him I got lost. Right. To deceive him.
[02:58:05] Speaker 1: So, even in this fog, you still have the ability to think, to protect yourself, right?
[02:58:15] Speaker 2: Um, yes.
[02:58:17] Speaker 1: And the other thing that you did is you attempted to call Matthew McCartney, right? Yes. And you also attempted to call Mr. Brewer, right?
[02:58:25] Speaker 2: Um, I don't remember. It might have.
[02:58:29] Speaker 1: One of the other things that you did, and you know, we were talking about protecting yourself. One of the other things that you did is that you play, you immediately, almost immediately, when you say you come out of this fog, one of the first things that you do is you try to divert attention away from you so that the police won't think that you had anything to do with this killing, right? Yes. And this fog that you were under that you're telling us about is not so deep that it stops you from fabricating or attempting to fabricate evidence, right?
[02:59:09] Speaker 2: Um, that would be correct, I guess.
[02:59:15] Speaker 1: And it's not so deep that, according to you, you can stay on the telephone and know the prompt so that you can get the telephone message just right, according to you, right?
[02:59:25] Speaker 2: Well, just so that I wasn't crying in the message, yes. Right.
[02:59:30] Speaker 1: But you want the message to be just so, so that it sounds natural, right?
[02:59:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, as natural as possible. Right.
[02:59:39] Speaker 1: And you went to great lengths to do that, according to you, right? Yes. And the reason that you went to great lengths to do that was that, so that if there was any suspicion, it wouldn't be drawn to you, correct?
[02:59:52] Speaker 2: Um, not immediately, that's, that was the point, yes.
[02:59:55] Speaker 1: Right, you wanted to, the police to look elsewhere, right?
[02:59:58] Speaker 2: Um, I guess. Well, no, you made the call, knowing the reason why you made the call, right?
[03:00:08] Speaker 1: Yes. If you really weren't wanting to fabricate evidence, you would have just left whatever message instead of worrying about crying or whatever it was that you were worried about, right?
[03:00:19] Speaker 2: That's right.
[03:00:21] Speaker 1: And so, you called Mr. Alexander and you left him a message, right? Yes. Miss Plain, hear what he said.
[03:00:30] Speaker ?: Hi. Hi.
[03:00:31] Speaker 8: Hi. How are you? Hi. How are you starting to gear up? I know Leslie called you, so I already talked to her, so, uh, you can call her back if you want, but it's not necessary. Um, my phone died, so I wasn't getting back to anybody. Um, and what else, oh, and I drove a hundred miles in the wrong direction. Over a hundred miles, thank you very much. So, yeah. Remember New Mexico? It was a lot like that. Only you weren't here to prevent me from going into the three digits. So, fun, fun. I'll tell you all about that later. Um, also, we were talking about, when we were talking about your upcoming travels my way, I was looking at the May calendar. Duh. So, I'm all confused. Um, but Heather and I are going to see Othello on July 1st, and we would love for you to accompany us. Um, I don't know when Team Freedom's event is, though. But, you know, it's on the list, so we could do, um, we could do Shakespeare, Crater Lake, and the Coast. So, if you can make it. If not, we'll just do the Coast and, uh, Crater Lake. But let me know, and I'll talk to you soon. Bye.
[03:01:29] Speaker 9: End of message. To delete this message, press 7. To save it in the archives, press 9 to hit. Message will be saved for 21.
[03:01:42] Speaker 1: That's you, correct?
[03:01:44] Speaker 4: Correct.
[03:01:45] Speaker 1: And that's you lying on the message, right?
[03:01:49] Speaker 4: Yes.
[03:01:50] Speaker 1: You're telling, or leaving the message for Mr. Alexander, indicating that you got lost. Fun, fun. Right?
[03:01:59] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:02:00] Speaker 1: That's not true, right?
[03:02:01] Speaker 4: That's not true.
[03:02:03] Speaker 1: Uh, asking him, or talking to him about coming up to visit you up in Wairica, and doing some of the things that you mentioned. You know that's not true also, right?
[03:02:16] Speaker 2: No, that was our plan before June 4th.
[03:02:20] Speaker 1: That was the plan before June 4th. But you're talking to him, or leaving the message for him, indicating that, you know, you're sorry, you couldn't stop by, but you guys can make up for it up in, when he comes up to visit you, right? Yes. That's a lie.
[03:02:39] Speaker ?: Yes.
[03:02:40] Speaker 1: And all of these lies, ma'am, are meant for your benefit so that you can escape responsibility.
[03:02:51] Speaker 2: I don't see how that's to my benefit, but I don't know what you mean by benefit, but yeah, so I could escape whatever for the time being.
[03:03:00] Speaker 1: Well, you keep saying for the time being, you would have been happy to avoid the consequences for a lifetime, wouldn't have you?
[03:03:10] Speaker 2: Um, I can't say I would be happy, but I don't know. You would have preferred that though, right?
[03:03:14] Speaker 1: There are some relevance. I don't know how to answer that. Well, you didn't go to the police with any of your information ever until they contacted you, right?
[03:03:31] Speaker 2: Um, I think I initiated the contact.
[03:03:36] Speaker 1: Oh, so you're saying when you called the police, you told them the truth.
[03:03:41] Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying that.
[03:03:44] Speaker 1: You would have been satisfied to avoid any responsibility for the killing of Mr. Alexander, wouldn't you?
[03:03:55] Speaker 2: I don't know if satisfied is the word, probably relieved for the time being.
[03:03:58] Speaker 1: Okay. You would have been relieved to avoid any consequences for the killing of Mr. Alexander, correct?
[03:04:05] Speaker 2: Um, that was, that was my goal for that day.
[03:04:14] Speaker 1: And that's why you left this message that we heard in exhibit number 365, right?
[03:04:21] Speaker 2: Yes. Well, that's part of the reason.
[03:04:24] Speaker 1: Well, that was the main reason, wasn't it?
[03:04:27] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:04:28] Speaker 1: I mean, there would be really no other reason to leave a dead man a telephone call, would there?
[03:04:34] Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't have done that, but Leslie said she, um, called his phone asking for me because I was missing. And then I thought, well, maybe I should do something about that. And that's why I did it. So ultimately that was the main reason. Yes.
[03:04:52] Speaker 1: So you're looking to Leslie Udy as the reason why you left that telephone call, ma'am? No.
[03:04:58] Speaker 2: I said the other, to avoid whatever was the ultimate reason.
[03:05:02] Speaker 1: You gave me a reason involving Leslie Udy right now, didn't you?
[03:05:06] Speaker 2: Yes. I wouldn't have thought to leave him a message if she hadn't, if I hadn't talked to her prior to leaving that message. And then she said that, um, we've been calling and we called Travis and left a message and that kind of thing.
[03:05:18] Speaker 1: But she told you that, ma'am, not believing that he was still alive, didn't she? Yes. You knew better though.
[03:05:25] Speaker 2: Um, I think I did.
[03:05:27] Speaker 1: And so you didn't have to follow her advice, right?
[03:05:31] Speaker 2: She didn't give me any advice.
[03:05:33] Speaker 1: Well, you didn't have to follow her words, did you?
[03:05:37] Speaker 2: Um, I didn't have to, but it reminded me of his cell phone and that's what I chose to do. I chose to do it. I chose to not, if you're going down the route saying Leslie made me do that, I'm not saying that.
[03:05:51] Speaker 1: I'm not saying Leslie made you do it. I'm saying you're looking again in a personal relationship, in an issue that is absolutely yours to own. You're looking for somebody else saying, Leslie Udy, I talked to her. And as a result of talking to Leslie Udy, that's why I left Leslie.
[03:06:12] Speaker 5: No objection, are you having it?
[03:06:14] Speaker 1: That's good. Ma'am, Leslie Udy really didn't have anything to do with that call, right?
[03:06:20] Speaker 2: I made the call. I just got the idea after speaking with her.
[03:06:24] Speaker 1: So she was the reason why you had the idea then?
[03:06:29] Speaker 2: Um, that kind of, I guess.
[03:06:36] Speaker 1: And according to you, if it had not been from Leslie Udy, you wouldn't have thought about it, right?
[03:06:43] Speaker 2: I probably might have thought of it eventually, but maybe not. I don't know. I just know that I thought of it after she mentioned she had left a message on his voicemail.
[03:06:55] Speaker 1: And so because of this outside stimulus, you decided to leave this message, right? It was your decision.
[03:07:02] Speaker 2: It was my decision.
[03:07:03] Speaker 1: Just like visiting Mr. Alexander was your decision, right? Yes. On June 4th of 2008. It was your decision, right?
[03:07:12] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:07:13] Speaker 1: Even though you told us before that he guilted you, that really wasn't the reason that you went. You wanted to go, correct?
[03:07:22] Speaker 2: Part of me did and part of me didn't. Obviously the bigger part of me did because I went and he did guilt me and ultimately still was my decision.
[03:07:32] Speaker 1: And so you made the decision to go though, right?
[03:07:35] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:07:36] Speaker 1: And then though, after that, you did something else to cover up, didn't you? Yes. Let's take a look at another exhibit. Take a look at exhibit number 504.
[03:08:04] Speaker ?: You want to send it? Yes. It's a text message that you sent, correct? Yes. What's the date on it? The 6th of June. Pardon?
[03:08:11] Speaker 2: June 6th, 2008. And it's to Mr. Alexander, correct?
[03:08:13] Speaker 1: Yes. And again, the hours are off by 7:00, correct? Yes. Yeah, I didn't look at the hours.
[03:08:17] Speaker 2: Well, why don't you just take a look at the hours just so that we can make sure.
[03:08:22] Speaker 1: Okay. They're off by 7:00, correct?
[03:08:24] Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
[03:08:26] Speaker 1: And again, the hours are off by 7:00, correct? Yeah, I didn't look at the hours.
[03:08:31] Speaker 2: Well, why don't you just take a look at the hours just so that we can make sure.
[03:08:35] Speaker 1: Okay. They're off by 7:00, correct?
[03:08:37] Speaker ?: Yes.
[03:08:38] Speaker 2: Okay.
[03:08:39] Speaker 1: Okay. Okay.
[03:08:41] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:08:42] Speaker 1: I vote for the admission of the residence 5-04. No objection.
[03:08:51] Speaker 3: 5-04 is admitted. 5-04 is admitted.
[03:09:11] Speaker 5: Okay. Let's take a look at this text message.
[03:09:25] Speaker 1: First of all, that's your telephone number there on the left, correct? That was, yes. And the date there is 6-6-08, correct? Yes. If we take the 7 hours away from the 16:58, what we're really talking about is what? 9:58 in the morning, is that correct? Yes. This is while you were still on the road, right? Home, correct? Yes. I believe it was. And why don't you read to us what the message is that you left for Mr. Alexander? Hey, I need to know when you're going to deposit that check. And you were referring to the check involving the car, right? Yes. The check that you know was uncashed in his desk in his office, right?
[03:10:21] Speaker 2: I didn't know where it was, but I figured it wasn't cached.
[03:10:25] Speaker 1: Now, in fact, there was a conversation that you had with the detective where you talked to him about the uncashed check, correct?
[03:10:33] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:10:34] Speaker 1: So you knew it was uncashed, correct?
[03:10:36] Speaker 2: By, yeah, by the time it hadn't cleared whenever I talked to him, I knew it was uncashed.
[03:10:42] Speaker 1: But another thing that you knew on this date is that Mr. Alexander was dead, didn't you?
[03:10:48] Speaker ?: Yeah, I did.
[03:10:49] Speaker 4: And you did that again so that you could cover up what you had done, right?
[03:10:58] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:10:59] Speaker 1: Because you did not want to be faced with whatever consequences were involved, right?
[03:11:05] Speaker 2: I was afraid of the consequences.
[03:11:08] Speaker 1: And because you were afraid, that was a good enough excuse for you to send something like that. Restate. I was afraid. The reason that you gave to us that you were afraid, in your mind, even though the fog had lifted, or there was a fog that was involved, you felt that it was okay to send this message?
[03:11:36] Speaker 2: I didn't feel it was okay. It's not like that. So I guess that would be no.
[03:11:44] Speaker 1: So then why are you sending it? Are you sending it so that you can reach him in the grave, or what?
[03:11:54] Speaker 2: No.
[03:11:55] Speaker 1: You're sending it so that, as you previously said, involving the telephone calls, so you won't have to face the consequences of what you did, right?
[03:12:05] Speaker 4: Yes.
[03:12:06] Speaker 1: Just like the scene, you're trying to manipulate the evidence, right?
[03:12:11] Speaker 4: Yes.
[03:12:13] Speaker 1: Take a look at another exhibit. Exhibit 505. Do you recognize it?
[03:12:27] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[03:12:28] Speaker 1: And that's an email, right?
[03:12:30] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[03:12:31] Speaker 1: Sent by you, right? Yes. Sent to Mr. Alexander, right? To his email. And what date and time was it sent?
[03:12:38] Speaker 2: Saturday, June 7, 2008. What time? I'm sorry, 10:21.
[03:12:52] Speaker 1: I'm open the admission to 505.
[03:12:57] Speaker ?: No objection.
[03:13:06] Speaker 1: No objection.
[03:13:07] Speaker 3: 505 is submitted.
[03:13:09] Speaker 1: It's from you, right? Yeah. And you've already told us the date and time. You're sending it to him, even though you know he's dead, right? It's a way to stage the scene, right?
[03:13:21] Speaker 2: I think so, yeah. That was my goal, I think.
[03:13:25] Speaker 1: I didn't hear you.
[03:13:26] Speaker 2: That was my goal, right?
[03:13:27] Speaker 1: Yeah. Why don't you start with, "Hey, you," and read to us what it says.
[03:13:33] Speaker 2: Hey, you, I haven't heard back from you. A little bit louder.
[03:13:37] Speaker 5: The fact that it was sent is enough.
[03:13:40] Speaker 2: Barbara. Hey, you, I haven't heard back from you. I hope you're not still upset that I didn't come to see you. I just didn't have enough time off. It's okay, sweetie. You're going to be here in less than two weeks. We're going to see the sights.
[03:14:08] Speaker 1: You're also right. Check things off the list, and all kinds of fun things, right?
[03:14:15] Speaker 4: Yes.
[03:14:16] Speaker 1: You say, "Oregon is beautiful this time of year." Yay, be happy, correct? And then you say, "Anyway, I wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about pushing my visit up to next week, but it depends on my budget, so I'm not sure yet. I know you'll be in Cancun, but I'll probably crash at your house in your cozy bed anyway. Eat some of your oatmeal and frozen dinners. You know, the usual joke. I know you said the door was always open, but I wanted to give you a heads up. If for any reason that won't work, let me know, and I'll make other arrangements. Your house has always been my second home, although it's a bit more lonely without naps around. You're probably in California right now, but wherever you are, but wherever you are, get a hold of me, at least before you head to Mexico. Thanks, hon, Jody. You wrote that, right?
[03:15:12] Speaker 4: Yes.
[03:15:14] Speaker 1: That was your way of an attempt for you to, again, stage the scene, so to speak, right? Yes. I'm going to play something for you, man. This is exhibit number 248.
[03:15:32] Speaker 2: No jury is going to convict me.
[03:15:34] Speaker 1: Why not?
[03:15:35] Speaker 2: Because I'm innocent, and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.
[03:15:41] Speaker 1: And that's you, right? Yes. And that's you saying that not that you're going to not be convicted because you're going to commit suicide or anything like that, is it? That's correct.
[03:15:55] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[03:15:56] Speaker 1: You're saying that you're innocent, right? Yes. And you believe that no jury would convict you because you were going to lie your way out of it, right? No. That's an argument.
[03:16:08] Speaker 3: The state.
[03:16:09] Speaker 1: Ma'am, you indicated certain things in this court as part of your testimony, didn't you?
[03:16:16] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:16:17] Speaker 1: You indicated, for example, that Travis Alexander, that you saw him masturbating to a picture or pictures of young boys, correct?
[03:16:28] Speaker 4: I only saw one picture.
[03:16:29] Speaker 1: Right. You saw him do that. That's a lie, isn't it, ma'am? Did you actually argument it?
[03:16:34] Speaker 2: About? I wish it was a lie.
[03:16:36] Speaker 1: Sorry. And ma'am, with regard to this issue of him being hypersexual and him overbearing, being overbearing in that department, that's not true, is it?
[03:16:49] Speaker 2: It's true that he was hypersexual, it's not true that he was overbearing.
[03:16:56] Speaker 1: I didn't ask you if he was hypersexual, I asked you if he was overbearing.
[03:16:59] Speaker 2: You said hypersexual. All right.
[03:17:01] Speaker 1: Let's go with overbearing then.
[03:17:03] Speaker 2: No, I don't think he was overbearing.
[03:17:05] Speaker 1: And in fact, you gave as well as you took, didn't you? Objection. Closer speculation.
[03:17:14] Speaker 9: I understand.
[03:17:15] Speaker 1: You were in it, to the same extent that he was, in the activities, right? Rephrase. Ma'am, for example, we saw some of the text messages that you sent to him, right? Yes. We heard some of the conversations that you had with him, right? Yes. You indicated, for example, I don't need to go into all of them, that you wanted to sexually blossom. Do you remember that? Yes. And you remember specifically saying that you wanted a facial. Do you remember that?
[03:17:45] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:17:46] Speaker 1: So you were enjoying the sex, weren't you?
[03:17:48] Speaker 2: Yes. Mostly.
[03:17:50] Speaker 1: Yes. And yet, you came in here, and for days upon days, you told us how uncomfortable they made you feel, right?
[03:17:58] Speaker 2: Only those times. We didn't talk about all the other times.
[03:18:01] Speaker 1: And ma'am, additionally, you talked about how he was physically abusive to you during your testimony, right?
[03:18:09] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:18:10] Speaker 1: And you said, for example, that in March, when you were going to move to Wairica, that he hit you on the freeway, right? Yes. But we took a look at your journal entry. Do you remember that? Yes. And your journal entry speaks otherwise, doesn't it?
[03:18:30] Speaker ?: Yes.
[03:18:31] Speaker 2: It doesn't speak of the incident.
[03:18:33] Speaker 1: No. It spoke of tenderness. Three soft kisses, doesn't it?
[03:18:38] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:18:39] Speaker 1: And involving the allegation that he kicked you and did something to your finger. Do you remember that? We also took a look at your journal.
[03:18:50] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:18:51] Speaker 1: And in that journal, that journal indicated that on the day that that was supposed to have happened, nothing noteworthy happened. That's what your journal said, right? Over the span of those four days. Yes.
[03:19:04] Speaker 2: Right.
[03:19:05] Speaker 1: And on January 22nd, when you allegedly saw him in this masturbatory conduct, that's also when you wrote in your journal that nothing noteworthy occurred, right? I'm sorry.
[03:19:21] Speaker 2: It was on the 21st, but that wasn't. Right.
[03:19:24] Speaker 1: The 21st. But your journal entry of the 24th covers the January 21st, doesn't it?
[03:19:33] Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
[03:19:35] Speaker 1: And so, you believe that you're going to be acquitted because you came in and told those stories, don't you?
[03:19:49] Speaker 2: I can't predict the future, and that's not why I told the truth. I still plan to kill myself when I told the truth.
[03:19:56] Speaker 1: And you believe that, you're saying that at that time, you planned to kill yourself, right?
[03:20:03] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:20:04] Speaker 1: That's not what you say in there, do you?
[03:20:06] Speaker 2: No, I couldn't say that.
[03:20:07] Speaker 1: Well, I'm not saying whether or not you could say it. You started your testimony on direct examination by saying, those are the bitterest words I have ever uttered. Do you remember saying that?
[03:20:17] Speaker 2: No, I said they're probably the most bitterest words I will ever eat.
[03:20:22] Speaker 1: Right. So, you have a very good memory as to what you said about that, right?
[03:20:27] Speaker ?: Yes.
[03:20:28] Speaker 1: Yes. And you said that the reason that you made that comment, that no jury would convict you, was because you were going to commit suicide, right? That's great. But in this clip that we saw, you actually say it's because you're innocent, right?
[03:20:46] Speaker 2: Yes, the first-degree murder, I wasn't innocent of that.
[03:20:49] Speaker 1: Yeah, it does say that you did say you were innocent, right? Yes. Even that's a lie, isn't it, ma'am?
[03:20:55] Speaker 2: Not how I was meaning it. What's that?
[03:20:59] Speaker 1: Objection. Argumentative.
[03:21:01] Speaker ?: Rephrase.
[03:21:02] Speaker 1: Isn't it inconsistent, your testimony, isn't it inconsistent with what you, this particular exhibit, 248, what you say in exhibit 248.
[03:21:16] Speaker 6: Objection is misbased in the law, that's not accurate as self-defense.
[03:21:20] Speaker 1: Approach.
[03:21:21] Speaker 3: You may continue. Objection overruled.
[03:21:26] Speaker 1: In this exhibit 248, you heard yourself, right?
[03:21:33] Speaker ?: Yes.
[03:21:34] Speaker 1: You said I'm innocent, no jury will convict me, right? Yes. Whereas when you started this direct examination, your testimony, you said the reason I said that no jury would convict me was because I planned to kill myself, right?
[03:21:50] Speaker 2: I said I planned to be dead, yes.
[03:21:53] Speaker 1: Because you were planned to commit suicide, right?
[03:21:56] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[03:21:57] Speaker 1: Those are two different stories, aren't they?
[03:22:00] Speaker 2: No, on the stand I explained why I didn't say suicide as opposed to the alternative because there was an officer sitting a few feet behind me and if I had said that they would have hauled me off to a padded room, stripped me naked and I would have lived there until whenever.
[03:22:12] Speaker 1: Sure. So what you are saying, even today, that when you say that you're innocent, that means to you that there's an officer sitting next to you and you didn't want him to know that you were going to commit suicide, right? That's what you're saying?
[03:22:23] Speaker 2: When I made that statement?
[03:22:25] Speaker 1: Yes. When you said innocent, that's what you equate it with.
[03:22:28] Speaker 2: Well, definitely innocent of pre-planning whatever you're trying to say.
[03:22:33] Speaker 1: No, I'm not asking about that. I'm asking about the statements. The point. Isn't it true that the statements are different? That's all I'm asking.
[03:22:39] Speaker 3: Yeah, they're different.
[03:22:40] Speaker 1: I don't have anything else. Thank you.
[03:22:42] Speaker ?: All right.
[03:22:43] Speaker 3: Ladies and gentlemen, we will see you on Monday, 10:15. Please remember the admonition. Are there any questions? Have a nice weekend.
[03:22:55] Speaker ?: Please stand for the jury.
[03:22:57] Speaker 3: The jury has left the courtroom in this area. She may step down. We are in recess. We do have a hearing. If you don't plan to stay for the hearing, I'm going to ask that you leave the courtroom.
[03:23:19] Speaker ?: All right.
[03:23:20] Speaker 3: This is the time set for hearing on an application for leave to intervene for the limited purpose of unsealing the transcript of the February 20, 2013 closed proceeding and any other closed hearings during trial. Filed by attorneys for KPNX Broadcasting Company and Phoenix Newspapers, Incorporated. Appearances for the record, please.
[03:23:45] Speaker 6: Good afternoon, your honor. David Bodney.
[03:23:47] Speaker 10: And with me, Chris Measer on behalf of Phoenix Newspapers, Inc. and KPNX Broadcasting Company.
[03:24:01] Speaker 3: Good afternoon. I received your application this morning. The attorneys also have received a copy of your application. What is the state's position with regard to the application?
[03:24:17] Speaker 1: I'll leave it to the court's discretion.
[03:24:19] Speaker 3: Mr. Nermy.
[03:24:21] Speaker 6: Judge, I have reviewed the application. I would cite the court as we had in previous proceedings. The -- as to Estes for Texas, there is a right to a public trial, but it must be weighed against the rights to have a fair trial. And given -- given that, we believe that the rights -- the things that are discussed in those chambers and at bench conferences, et cetera, help facilitate her receiving a fair trial and the dissemination of said material would interfere with that. I believe that the attorneys for Phoenix Newspaper have not put forth anything that really would demonstrate to the contrary. Having spoken first, I'm not sure which assertions they would make. However, it has been their consistent position, I guess, or to seemingly ignore the fact that this is a death penalty case. More process is due than less. Citing the court to Lockett v. Ohio, 408 U.S. 586, and Woodson v. North Carolina, 428 U.S. 280. So we have not only an instance where we're talking about fair trial, but we're also talking about fundamental fairness in sentencing in a death penalty setting. That fundamental fairness as it relates to trial and sentencing is -- is eviscerated if crucial information that must be discussed amongst attorneys and the court is -- is somehow publicized. That would, again, interfere with her right to a fair trial. The benefit to the right to the fair trial is really held by Ms. Arias, not by Phoenix Newspapers. This is a trial, not a television event. Signing to Garnet Company v. De Pascual 443 U.S. 368. So with that, Judge, I would rest. I think I've made sufficient record of my position. And, again, I would continue to cite the -- the reality that the Phoenix Newspapers have not provided you any serious authority as to why in these proceedings Ms. Arias' rights should be truncated by their desire to have these transcripts.
[03:27:11] Speaker 3: Mr. Bodney, do you have anything you'd like to add to your written pleading?
[03:27:19] Speaker 10: Thank you, Your Honor, for this opportunity to be heard. We appreciate it. We are certainly mindful that this is an important criminal case, and we do not mean to take up any more of the court's time or attention than necessary, and we do not mean to diminish the importance of the Sixth Amendment and fair trial rights in this case. But since Estes v. Texas was decided in the 1960s, the United States Supreme Court decided no less than four cases in the 1980s recognizing a First Amendment right of the press and public to attend criminal proceedings -- important cases just like these. And so we're at a decided disadvantage when it comes to offering specifics as to why the hearing that took place on February 20 or any other closed proceeding in this case should be open. All we can underscore in assistance to the court, quite frankly, on this issue is this. There is a First Amendment right of the press and public to attend virtually all aspects of criminal proceedings. That is a presumed right. And it can be limited only upon a showing, buttressed by specific findings on the record, of some overriding interest that trumps that First Amendment right, and a showing that the narrowly tailored provisions designed to protect that interest are essential to preserving a higher value. And finally, that there really are no less drastic alternatives to closure. And so because we don't know what was said in any closed proceeding, we have to repose our confidence in the court to issue specific findings on the record, either in support of closure or in support of release of transcripts of any proceedings that have been closed today. And I recognize that as the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals recognized in what we call the Symington case, the Phoenix Newspapers versus District Court decision, that release of those transcripts should occur when any danger dissipates. So if counsel for the defendant is aware of some danger that would exist to the fair trial right of his client by release of a sentence or two or the entirety of that February 20 transcript and the court agrees, and I suppose findings in support of that conclusion should be issued. And then the press and public will have a greater understanding about why that particular hearing took place in closed session and why any other hearings in this important criminal trial take place in closed session. So in closing, Your Honor, we are very mindful of the importance of the case from the prosecutor's perspective and from the defendant's perspective. We are mindful of Your Honor's time, and for that reason I will conclude my remarks unless there are any questions. Again, we appreciate the opportunity to be heard and to ask the court to give life to these First Amendment protections, which our Supreme Court of the United States has recognized.
[03:31:25] Speaker 3: Thank you, Mr. Bodney. This court is mindful of its obligation to keep the courtroom doors open. We have done so in this trial. This trial has been covered by the media gavel to gavel. Some of the evidentiary rulings in this case have been held in open court. Others have not. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. This trial has been held in open court. When it was required, specifically this court found on occasion that the privacy interest of witnesses, possible witnesses and jurors could be affected by the disclosure of certain matters that occurred in chambers. The court also found that a substantial probability exists that the compelling interest will be prejudiced if the record is not sealed until this trial is concluded. The court also found that that proposed ceiling was narrowly tailored and that no less restrictive means exists to achieve that compelling interest. The court also found that dissemination of materials and information that was exchanged during the in-chamber's proceedings would affect the defendant's right to a fair trial because of the intense media scrutiny in this case. Dissemination of certain matters discussed in those in-chamber's proceedings could affect the strategy and the evidence presented in this case and could affect the testimony of potential witnesses. For those reasons, the court has chosen to seal certain portions of this case. Certainly nothing that was heard by the jury, but certain evidentiary matters and other hearings. So the application for leave to intervene for the limited purpose of unsealing the transcript of February 20, 2013 is denied for the reasons stated. Some of the in-chamber's proceedings were sealed and if there is a specific hearing or a specific request this court will consider that, but I believe that most of the in-chamber's proceedings were sealed at the request of the defendant. And there was no objection from the state and, as I said earlier, this court made specific findings that sealing those specific proceedings was necessary and in the public interest. So, is there anything else, counsel? No.
[03:34:34] Speaker 6: Your Honor, just the only matter not related to this simply deals with exhibits. Since we are beginning to redirect, my understanding is the council for the state still has one exhibit checked out. We'd like the opportunity to have that return so we can check it out in preparation. Mr. Martinez.
[03:34:56] Speaker 1: And he discussed it with me five minutes ago asking whether or not I had another exhibit. I indicated to him that I did. I would return it tomorrow. So I'm not sure why that's becoming an issue.
[03:35:06] Speaker 6: I want to make a record of it.
[03:35:08] Speaker 3: Council approach, please. You had something else to say.
[03:35:24] Speaker 10: Thank you, Your Honor. Very briefly, just two points of clarification. I thought I heard Your Honor say that the application was denied for the reasons stated. I would hope that the application for leave to intervene, based on the standing that my clients enjoy, would be granted. But that the relief requested today be denied, recognizing that we have a standing request for copies of those transcripts at the conclusion of the trial, or whenever the reasons for their closure dissipate, if sooner. All right.
[03:36:03] Speaker 3: I will grant your request to intervene, and I believe it would be appropriate for those transcripts to be made public after the trial has concluded. So if that clarifies my ruling. It does, Your Honor.
[03:36:16] Speaker 6: Thank you. I would take issue with that if the sentence, if there is a death sentence imposed, there is an automatic appeal, there's automatic post-conviction, there's many habeas issues that could arise. I don't think an automatic unsealing dissipates any issues related to those possible proceedings, if the sentence is death. So I would take issue with the court going that far at this point in time. All right.
[03:36:51] Speaker 3: I will give defense counsel an opportunity to indicate any specific proceedings that you are concerned about. And this court will take up the request of the intervener at the conclusion of the trial and make a determination of which proceedings should remain sealed and which may be provided.
[03:37:16] Speaker 6: I would then ask for if at the end of this trial, Phoenix Newspapers is making such requests that they file specific requests for me in advance so we can take it up so I can take a look back at what these things are. Yes.
[03:37:32] Speaker 3: Most of them would require a transcript, I think, from a court reporter because those proceedings were not conducted in the courtroom, so there would not be an FTR record. We would need a record from a specific court reporter. So, Mr. Bodney, if you had a specific request for a hearing on a specific date, you would need to give us enough time to have a transcript prepared so that we can all review that and make a determination.
[03:37:57] Speaker 10: And, Your Honor, I guess we would like to make a standing request for the February 20 hearing and if there have been other closed proceedings at which issues in this trial have been decided, we would request access to them. Obviously, we don't know what was said during those closed proceedings and therefore can't be any more specific than that.
[03:38:18] Speaker 3: All right. Mr. Babicki is the court reporter for that particular hearing. I will request that he prepare a transcript so that all the parties can review that specific proceeding. Is that the only one you're concerned about now?
[03:38:31] Speaker 10: It's the only one I'm specifically aware of now, though I understand there to have been others.
[03:38:37] Speaker 3: All right. I can't tell you when that transcript will be ready. He has many requests for transcripts and it will be in line with all of his other requests. But I will pass that along. All right. Appreciate that.
[03:38:51] Speaker 10: Thank you, Your Honor. All right.
[03:38:53] Speaker ?: Thank you. All right.