Is this Gary Stevenson's last EVER interview?

[0:00] You know, people think it's the politics of envy. [0:01] It's the politics of f***ing poverty. [0:03] If you allow the people who own all of the assets [0:06] to never have to sell an asset, [0:07] then your kids will never own an asset. [0:09] I think what they don't understand is, [0:11] I am the peaceful option here. [0:13] If you say no to me, what you are saying, [0:15] you are voting for chaos. [0:16] I am not trying to redistribute the wealth. [0:18] I am trying to stop the redistribution [0:20] which is currently happening, [0:21] which is rapidly pushing millions of people in this country, [0:25] hundreds of millions of people across the Western world, [0:27] into really serious poverty. [0:28] Obviously, they're going to start voting for extreme politicians. [0:32] Gary Stevenson, welcome to Politics Show. [0:34] Thanks for having me back. [0:35] It's great to have you back. [0:36] I think you may have the record [0:38] for most appearances on the channel, believe it or not. [0:41] And this must be, what, third maybe? [0:42] I think it's third, yeah. [0:44] Who might be behind you? [0:46] Matt Kennard's been on... [0:47] No, Matt Kennard's been on three times as well, actually, [0:50] so you're tied at the top. [0:51] How does that feel? [0:52] Fantastic. [0:53] I don't know who that person is, I'm afraid, [0:54] but I'm sure he's a great guy. [0:56] He's a fantastic guy. [0:58] We're here to talk about your new documentary, [1:01] How to Get Filthy Rich. [1:02] Yeah. [1:03] But before that, we're sat here a couple of days [1:06] after Andy Burnham has become the Prime Minister. [1:09] One day after now. [1:10] One day after now, but I wanted to make it mysterious for them lot. [1:14] Okay. [1:14] Yeah, sorry, sorry. [1:16] When are we shooting? [1:17] Nobody knows. [1:18] Yeah. [1:19] Give me your first initial thoughts [1:22] on what the Burnham government is going to be like. [1:25] So I've been actively trying to lobby Labour for, let's say, about three years now, [1:30] which is about as long as I've been big enough to make any sort of impact. [1:34] The Keir Starmer government and the Keir Starmer, like, pre-government were never really very [1:41] interested at all. [1:42] It was pretty clear they didn't want to do anything serious on top-level inequality, [1:46] wealth taxes. [1:47] That was a bit depressing. [1:50] So I did a video before Keir Starmer came in, before the election, in fact, [1:53] saying they're going to win a landslide, they're not going to do anything on inequality, [1:56] they're going to fail on living standards, he'll be very unpopular very quickly, [1:59] and he'll get booted out, which was good predictions. [2:01] Obviously, we've known Starmer's going for, like, a year, really, [2:06] and we've known it's going to probably be Burnham for, say, three or four months, [2:11] and I've been, like, trying to lobby. [2:14] There's been a massive change in what I'm getting back from Labour MPs, [2:18] a lot more open-minded, a lot more people willing to talk, [2:22] haven't met Burnham himself, have been trying... [2:25] There's all this sort of, like, Burnham whispering behind the scene. [2:28] You're trying to talk to somebody who, like, knows Burnham. [2:30] He's like, mate, and everyone's trying to work out who... [2:31] What does he think? [2:32] Yeah, who are the guys who actually, like, talk to Burnham? [2:36] People are talking to me, Burnham hasn't talked to me, [2:38] I wouldn't say I've had much top-level contact. [2:41] I don't think he's going to do anything, like, serious on top, top-level inequality. [2:47] I think one thing people don't realise is, like, they will have to do something on tax, [2:52] and they will raise tax on someone. [2:55] And I'm saying it needs to be taxed on, like, the very, very rich. [2:58] And, basically, people who are paid by the very, very rich [3:02] are trying to lobby for taxes on the middle class and the upper middle class. [3:05] And I think they will probably win. [3:08] So you'll probably get something like... [3:10] I think there's a very good chance we'll get equalisation of income tax and capital gains. [3:14] Capital gains is currently about half income tax in terms of percentage rate. [3:20] That change will probably get made. [3:22] That is effectively a tax on the upper middle, [3:24] because capital gains is paid when you sell. [3:28] Rich people, very, very rich people, never have to sell assets [3:31] because they have so much passive income. [3:33] So I think he'll end up doing these taxes on the upper middle. [3:39] That might help him a bit. [3:40] The problem you have, of course, is the upper middle is not really the problem here. [3:45] The middle and the upper middle, depending on where you split that, [3:49] some of them are being squeezed. [3:50] The real problem is that very, very rich end. [3:53] I don't see the serious appetite to deal with that. [3:58] I'm going to do my best to try and lobby him or whoever I can speak to to do something on that. [4:03] But I really, really hope this is not true. [4:06] I think what you're probably going to get at the moment is [4:07] failure to act seriously on the very, very top end. [4:12] What that means is, and I've spoken about this a lot, [4:14] I speak about it in my documentary, [4:15] every single day that passes, that the very top end, [4:18] you know, billionaires, centi-millionaires are not taxed seriously. [4:22] They get richer, everyone else gets poorer. [4:24] So the government's job gets significantly more difficult every day [4:27] they don't take action here. [4:29] I think they'll be too slow. [4:31] They'll end up failing on living standards. [4:33] Inequality will keep rising. [4:35] Living standards will keep getting worse. [4:38] They might then try to speak to me in a year's time when they're struggling. [4:41] And I think it may well be too late by then. [4:44] And I think probably then he fails and it's Farage. [4:46] But, you know, at this point there is still everything to play for [4:50] and I'm playing as hard as I can to try to get him to do something [4:54] on that very, very top end taxation. [4:55] So there today, there was the proposal of scrapping VAT on domestic electricity. [5:01] Now, again, very early first week. [5:05] Do you not think that something like that might be an indication [5:09] of the ambition that they might have? [5:11] Or do you think going in in the first place, [5:14] you might have wanted something immediate to say, right, well taxed? [5:17] It's not necessarily... [5:18] Obviously, they want to give something straight away. [5:21] And you can obviously understand their instinct to do that [5:24] because people are pissed off. [5:26] People don't want continuity Starmer. [5:28] Starmer was very unpopular. [5:30] They want to do something quickly. [5:31] They want to do something now. [5:33] You know, you cut VAT on energy bills, [5:35] not necessarily like a bad policy. [5:37] It's almost just like a lump sum payment to broadly everyone. [5:40] Obviously, people who use more energy will get a bit more. [5:42] So actually, rich people will get a bit more. [5:44] So it's like actually not even particularly progressive. [5:47] But, you know, they want to do something quickly. [5:49] The question is always, where does the money come from? [5:51] You know, and I think the instincts are probably better [5:54] than Starmer's instincts. [5:55] And I do hope for improvement. [5:58] But I'm an inequality economist, right? [6:01] And what I see where I'm sitting [6:04] is incredibly rapid increase in wealth inequality. [6:07] And what that means is incredibly rapid loss of wealth [6:10] from governments and from the middle class [6:13] and from the working class. [6:15] And if you don't take action on that, [6:17] it can only be disaster. [6:20] And the thing is, you've got to realise that they just, [6:23] I'm not the only person trying to lobby Andy Burnham. [6:26] And I think one thing you see with the documentary [6:28] and to the reaction of the documentary [6:29] and to like my increase in profile, [6:32] there are lots and lots of people [6:33] that really, really don't want increased taxation [6:35] on the very, very rich. [6:36] Well, in particular, a lot of very powerful people. [6:38] And they have better access than me [6:40] and they're lobbying as well. [6:41] And they're going to tell Andy Burnham, [6:43] oh, if you tax the super rich, [6:44] it will be a disaster for the economy. [6:46] And what they'll probably also be sort of [6:47] nudged, nudged, wink, wink is, [6:49] and also we own the newspapers. [6:51] Do you want to piss us off? [6:52] Do you really want to piss us off? [6:53] You know, and I think one thing [6:55] that's been interesting to me is like, [6:57] you know, I've grown in profile a lot [6:59] in the last month even, [7:01] but especially the last two years. [7:02] But in the last month or so [7:03] since the documentary's come out, [7:04] there's really been like a pretty concerted effort [7:07] to like really flame Gary Stevenson. [7:09] Like really, let's go for him. [7:10] And what you see in there [7:12] is the rich and powerful are rich and powerful. [7:14] And they've got a lot of like media access, [7:16] control of think tanks, you know, [7:18] they fund a lot of these politicians. [7:21] They will be doing everything they can [7:23] to lobby Burnham not to do this. [7:24] But it's not just, [7:26] they will also be paying economists [7:28] to tell him it's a bad idea. [7:30] You know, and I think really, [7:32] really there's a game to be played here basically, [7:34] which is not just Andy Burnham, [7:35] but any high-level politician, [7:37] any prime minister has to be scared [7:39] of the very rich and powerful [7:40] because of their media power, [7:41] because of their financial power. [7:43] And until and unless the British working class, [7:47] the British middle class, [7:48] make people like Andy Burnham [7:49] as scared of them as they are of the very rich, [7:53] we will continue to see ordinary people get poorer [7:55] and the very rich get richer. [7:57] So I think, I don't expect Burnham to do it [8:00] and I never expected him to do it. [8:02] We need to force him to do it. [8:04] Because at the end of the day, [8:06] him and the people around him, [8:09] they will get richer [8:10] and they're comfortable with that. [8:12] Why do you think the element of this, [8:15] that there's lobbying power [8:18] and you're talking about how you can see, [8:22] I mean, you said it in previous interviews, [8:24] you can see down the road [8:24] there is going to be a reformed government [8:26] if you don't fix widening inequality. [8:30] Governments should surely see, [8:33] if they're looking at America, [8:34] if they're looking at Europe, France, Germany, [8:37] that wealth inequality is actually a factor [8:40] in how the far right is on the rise in these places. [8:43] But rather than confronting that as an issue, [8:46] oftentimes it's confronted as an issue of immigration, [8:50] an issue of racism or whatever it might be. [8:53] Why in the UK do you think there's kind of, [8:59] even with a Labour government, [9:00] there's a reluctance to deal with [9:01] the actual tangible issue being wealth inequality [9:05] and rather to just to look elsewhere for solutions? [9:09] So I think the debate is still live. [9:11] I think the debate is still live. [9:12] All right. [9:12] So I think broadly the public is kind of, [9:15] broadly the public is won over on the idea [9:17] that growing wealth inequality is a big problem. [9:20] I've done a lot of work to try and make people recognise [9:22] that this is the primary cause [9:24] for falling living standards. [9:25] But you've got to recognise, [9:29] so before I did this, [9:30] I was doing a Masters at Oxford [9:32] and before I did that, [9:33] I was working in the city. [9:34] Before I did that, [9:34] I was doing economics [9:35] at the London School of Economics. [9:37] The reason that I made so much money [9:41] when I was in the city [9:42] is because I recognised not just that [9:45] growing wealth inequality [9:47] was having a really big impact on the economy. [9:50] I specifically recognised [9:52] that that was not being broadly understood by economists [9:54] because I had an undergrad degree from LSE [9:58] and I went into the city [10:00] and I could see that our predictions were always wrong. [10:03] So I knew something was missing [10:05] and I did this thing of like trying to basically [10:07] look at the theory, [10:08] look at the reality [10:08] and understand what is missing from the theory. [10:11] So I think if you want to understand [10:12] what's happening in the world, [10:13] you do need to recognise [10:14] not only is growing wealth inequality [10:17] like aggressively, rapidly driving broad living standards down, [10:21] you also need to recognise [10:22] that this is not broadly understood [10:24] by academic economists [10:26] and I think you're starting to see [10:28] like some of the best, smartest economists, [10:30] people like Gabriel Zuckman, [10:31] people like Thomas Piketty [10:32] and well, dare I say, people like me, [10:35] recognise the reason the economy keeps getting worse [10:37] and the reason our predictions keep being bad [10:40] is because specifically what is being missed [10:42] is growing wealth inequality. [10:44] Students who are studying economics at top universities [10:46] are not studying this [10:47] and do not understand this. [10:48] So when the government goes to its economists [10:53] in academia or in think tanks [10:56] or in civil service, [10:58] they have never, ever studied inequality. [11:02] So I've did three years at London School of Economics, [11:04] two years at Oxford. [11:05] When I was at Oxford, [11:05] I was specifically looking for courses [11:08] where we could study inequality. [11:09] Those courses did not exist [11:11] on a two-year economics master's. [11:13] So really what you have, [11:15] you know who Copernicus is. [11:16] You know Copernicus is the guy [11:18] who recognised that, you know, [11:19] the earth goes around the sun [11:20] and the sun doesn't go around the earth. [11:21] He got a massive amount of pushback [11:23] because all of the guys who'd studied this [11:25] have studied these complicated mathematical equations [11:27] saying the sun goes around the earth. [11:29] This is basically where we are. [11:30] We have economies where living standards [11:32] are being aggressively destroyed [11:34] by growing inequality of wealth, [11:36] but we have a broad academic economics class [11:39] of people who do not believe that it's true, [11:43] have never studied inequality in any way, [11:45] so have no way of even understanding [11:46] if it would be true, [11:47] and are in most cases, [11:49] especially the powerful economists, [11:50] being actively enriched by the status quo. [11:53] So these guys are going to block it, right? [11:56] And they're happy for things [11:58] to keep going the way that they're going. [11:59] So, and it really, unfortunately, [12:02] it now falls upon the general public [12:04] to work out how do we stop our economy [12:07] from collapsing [12:07] when the specific way [12:09] in which our economy is collapsing [12:10] is aggressively enriching [12:12] the exact people [12:13] who are supposed to stop this from happening. [12:15] So all of the economists [12:17] who have the power, [12:18] and most of the politicians [12:18] who have the power to stop this, [12:20] are getting richer because of it. [12:22] What you need to understand is [12:24] an economic crisis [12:25] of growing wealth inequality [12:26] does not impoverish everyone. [12:29] It is actively good [12:30] for the top 1% [12:31] and the top 5% in most cases. [12:33] And these are the only people [12:35] at the moment [12:35] who are allowed into the conversation on this. [12:37] So the reason I chose to switch [12:39] from being in academia [12:40] and then writing for broadsheets [12:42] to YouTube [12:43] and making a documentary [12:44] is because I want to speak [12:46] to the general public [12:46] because it is the general public [12:48] who are being impoverished by this. [12:50] And the people, [12:50] the economists, [12:51] unfortunately, [12:52] in most cases, [12:53] and the politicians [12:54] who are supposed to be stopping it [12:55] are getting richer [12:57] from it happening. [12:58] So it's, [12:59] and not only them, [12:59] all of their friends and family, [13:01] you know, [13:01] most of these politicians, [13:02] okay, [13:02] I mean, [13:02] Andy Burnham seems to come [13:03] from a working class background. [13:05] He seems like he could be [13:05] a nice enough guy. [13:06] I've never met him. [13:07] Probably he has some connections [13:09] to ordinary people, [13:10] but you know, [13:11] most of these top level politicians, [13:13] they don't know anyone [13:14] who's suffering. [13:15] You know, [13:15] I went on The Rest is Politics [13:16] and this happens all the time. [13:18] You know, [13:18] people say to me, [13:19] oh, [13:19] but don't you see things [13:20] are getting better? [13:22] You know, [13:22] and it's the thing, [13:23] things are getting aggressively, [13:26] actively better [13:26] for the top 1%. [13:27] And this whole conversation [13:29] is taking place [13:30] amongst people [13:31] who are in the top 1%. [13:33] So the British public, [13:35] and not just the British public, [13:36] the American public, [13:36] any European, [13:37] Australian public, [13:38] everyone needs to work out, [13:39] how do we, [13:41] the public, [13:43] find ways to come together [13:44] and force, [13:46] using our power, [13:48] the politicians [13:48] and the economists to move? [13:49] Because in general, [13:51] they are very comfortable [13:53] the way things are going. [13:54] So then talk me through it then, [13:55] right? [13:56] You've got, [13:57] your proposal is [13:58] 2% on 10 million. [14:00] You mentioned Gabriel Zuckman [14:01] earlier on. [14:02] He's 2% on 100 million. [14:04] 100 million euros. [14:05] Is there anyone around there [14:06] that's doing 2% on 1 million [14:08] or 100,000? [14:09] Why are you saying 10? [14:12] He's saying 100. [14:13] So to be honest, [14:14] 2% on 10 was not my proposal. [14:16] That was a pre-existing proposal [14:17] from other organisations [14:19] that have worked on this [14:20] for a long time in the UK, [14:22] Tax Justice UK, [14:23] Patrick Millionaires. [14:25] We have seen people do [14:26] 2% on lower numbers. [14:28] So often when wealth taxes [14:30] have been attempted [14:31] or applied in Europe, [14:33] they often have a lower threshold. [14:34] The reason that we go [14:37] for higher thresholds, [14:38] in this country it's 10 million, [14:40] Zuckman's 100 million euros, [14:41] so it's like 90 million pounds, [14:43] is because the current tax system [14:45] is already quite good [14:47] at taxing moderately rich people. [14:51] If you are a banker [14:53] or a lawyer [14:54] or a doctor or a surgeon [14:55] and you're making [14:56] hundreds of thousands [14:58] or maybe millions of pounds a year, [14:59] it's quite difficult [15:00] to avoid that tax. [15:01] You have to pay your income tax. [15:02] The people who are really [15:05] able to avoid paying tax [15:07] are the very, very, very rich. [15:09] And you have to do [15:10] something about that [15:11] because we've just seen [15:12] Elon Musk become a trillionaire. [15:14] These people, [15:15] because of their wealth [15:15] and their power, [15:16] they are generally able [15:18] to grow their wealth [15:19] at pretty rapid rates. [15:21] We interviewed one billionaire [15:22] for the documentary. [15:23] He said he won't take [15:24] less than 12%. [15:25] So if you've got billionaires [15:27] growing their wealth [15:27] at 12% a year, [15:28] Elon Musk is growing [15:29] about 40, 50% a year. [15:32] In economies that are going [15:33] 1% or 2% a year, [15:34] you don't need to be a genius [15:35] to work out, [15:36] well, their share of wealth ownership [15:38] is going to balloon [15:39] incredibly quickly. [15:40] This is exponential growth. [15:42] It's going to grow very quickly. [15:43] And that is why we have seen [15:44] in the last 20, 30 years [15:46] the loss of the ability [15:47] of working class families [15:48] selling wealth, [15:49] the massive collapse [15:50] in government wealth. [15:51] If you don't deal [15:52] with that very top end, [15:53] you can do what you're like [15:54] to the upper middle. [15:56] And they're less, [15:57] in many ways, [15:57] they're less powerful, [15:58] able to defend themselves [15:59] than the billionaires. [16:00] But if you don't deal [16:02] with that rapid growth [16:04] in billionaire wealth, [16:05] then they're just going to [16:05] own everything in 20 years. [16:06] And that means that [16:07] your kids won't own anything, [16:09] won't own anything, [16:10] the viewers' kids [16:10] won't own anything. [16:12] So for me, [16:15] obviously there's a million ways [16:16] we could change the tax system [16:17] and I'm not looking [16:17] for a perfect tax system. [16:19] But I'm just trying [16:20] to fix one specific problem, [16:21] which is at the moment [16:22] the extremely rich [16:24] are effectively untaxed. [16:26] They're growing their wealth [16:27] at an incredibly rapid rate. [16:28] that is inevitably going [16:30] to squeeze wealth ownership [16:31] out of the whole [16:32] of the rest of society [16:32] and will move us [16:33] very quickly [16:34] towards positions [16:35] of extreme inequality [16:36] and that will inevitably lead [16:38] to the kind of living standards [16:39] that you get [16:40] in countries [16:41] that have extreme inequality. [16:42] You know, [16:42] if you go to India, [16:45] you know, [16:45] if you go to Brazil, [16:46] look at what broad [16:46] living standards are like. [16:47] That is what will happen here [16:49] if we don't deal [16:49] with the top end. [16:50] But then with the, [16:53] I'm trying to, [16:54] I'm thinking [16:54] that there seems [16:55] to be far more tiers [16:57] to it than can just be [16:59] a flat percentage [17:00] on a flat number [17:01] because you're talking [17:02] about 10 million. [17:03] There's people [17:03] that have a trillion dollars [17:05] in the world. [17:05] There's people [17:06] that have half a trillion dollars [17:07] that I wonder if, [17:11] like, [17:11] should their wealth [17:12] exist full stop? [17:14] Like, [17:14] the idea that someone [17:16] that has 10 million [17:17] is feasibly someone [17:19] that still walks [17:20] amongst you. [17:21] Yeah, yeah. [17:21] Whereas there's [17:22] the uber wealthy [17:23] that just live [17:25] in a completely different world. [17:26] They can shut down places [17:26] like Venice if they want [17:27] for their wedding. [17:29] Yeah. [17:30] It just doesn't seem [17:32] like they should be around. [17:33] Should they exist? [17:36] I mean, [17:37] if you, [17:37] just quite simply, [17:39] mathematically, [17:40] if you allow [17:41] the existence [17:41] of untaxed trillionaires [17:43] and centi-billionaires [17:44] in economies [17:45] which are growing [17:46] very slowly, [17:47] you simply have to accept [17:50] the loss [17:50] of the middle class. [17:51] You cannot, [17:53] because if you allow [17:54] this group of people... [17:54] Their argument is always [17:55] that they pay [17:56] some of the most taxing... [17:57] Yeah, it's totally not. [17:58] Relative to their... [17:59] It doesn't matter. [18:00] You know, [18:00] listen, right? [18:01] You know, [18:02] if you have one part [18:03] of your body [18:03] that is growing [18:05] at 50% a year, [18:07] it's not going to be long [18:08] before that is [18:08] your whole body. [18:10] This is like literally [18:11] the definition [18:11] of cancer. [18:13] If you allow there [18:14] to be, [18:15] you know, [18:15] a small group of people [18:17] that own a big chunk [18:19] of our... [18:20] It's not just money [18:21] in the bank. [18:21] These guys own [18:22] the physical world. [18:23] They own the land, [18:23] they own the buildings, [18:24] they own the productive [18:25] resources, [18:25] they own the food production, [18:26] they own energy production, [18:28] you know. [18:29] And if you allow them [18:29] to keep growing, [18:30] 12, 13... [18:31] I think sometimes [18:32] people don't realise [18:32] how powerful [18:33] exponential growth is [18:34] and how powerful [18:35] compound interest is. [18:39] We as societies [18:42] have a choice. [18:43] Either you can have [18:45] an untaxed billionaire class [18:46] or you can have [18:48] a property-owning middle class. [18:49] You cannot allow [18:50] this group [18:50] to own everything [18:51] and not expect [18:53] your group [18:53] to own nothing. [18:55] So this is purely [18:56] a mathematical argument. [18:57] And, you know, [18:59] I think it's important [19:00] to recognise [19:00] that these 70 years [19:02] we've lived in [19:03] in the UK [19:04] and Western Europe [19:04] and some other parts [19:06] of the world [19:06] where you have [19:07] this big property-owning [19:08] middle class [19:09] and people like my dad [19:10] can work for the post office [19:11] and send three kids [19:12] to university [19:12] and buy a house [19:13] and have a pension, [19:14] have retirement. [19:15] Not historically normal, [19:17] not internationally normal. [19:18] You know, [19:18] the historical norm [19:19] in this country [19:19] is incredible, [19:20] extreme inequality, [19:22] a small elite [19:22] that own everything [19:23] and live extremely luxurious lives [19:25] and a big mass of people [19:26] that are desperately poor. [19:27] And we managed [19:28] to change that [19:29] by bringing in [19:30] elements into our system [19:32] that stop wealth [19:33] from aggressively concentrating, [19:35] elements which we have [19:35] since removed. [19:37] And now we are going [19:37] to go back [19:38] to what has always [19:39] been the norm [19:39] in societies [19:40] with untaxed billionaires, [19:42] which is extreme concentration. [19:44] So, you know, [19:45] it's not up to me, [19:47] it's up to the British public [19:48] and the American public. [19:49] Like, you can have [19:50] Elon Musk [19:51] if you want, [19:53] but you cannot have [19:53] Elon Musk [19:54] and your kid's not poor. [19:56] It's a choice. [19:57] If you want to give, [19:57] if you want to give your house [19:58] and all of your wealth [20:00] to Elon Musk, [20:01] do it, [20:02] but then you won't have a house [20:03] or any wealth. [20:05] We don't live on a world [20:06] of infinite wealth. [20:07] If you allow these guys [20:08] to grow at 50% a year, [20:10] then you have to accept [20:11] in 20 years, [20:12] they own everything. [20:13] You own nothing. [20:14] Your kids own nothing. [20:15] Your kids are in debt. [20:16] The government is in debt. [20:17] Look at the collapsing [20:18] government wealth. [20:18] Listen, [20:19] you can have Elon Musk, [20:20] but you cannot have Elon Musk [20:21] and the NHS. [20:22] You can have Elon Musk, [20:23] but you cannot have Elon Musk [20:24] and free education. [20:25] You can have Elon Musk, [20:26] but you cannot have Elon Musk [20:27] and affordable housing [20:28] for working people. [20:29] Those are your choices. [20:31] You mentioned the landowning class there [20:34] and there's an interesting interaction [20:35] that you have in the documentary [20:36] with, [20:38] oh God, [20:38] Fulford is his name? [20:39] Francis Fulford. [20:42] And his gripe, [20:44] essentially, [20:44] with the idea of a wealth tax [20:46] is that he doesn't, [20:47] he's not liquid, [20:47] right? [20:48] Yeah. [20:48] He's got all of this land, [20:49] he's got all of this wealth [20:51] that's locked away in his land [20:52] and there's kind of this, [20:55] it seems like there's a wall [20:58] between the two of you [20:59] where you're talking to him [21:00] about the need [21:01] to actually recognize [21:02] that he is a wealthy man. [21:04] Yeah. [21:04] He may not have the cash, [21:05] but he is a wealthy man. [21:06] Yeah. [21:07] And he doesn't consider himself [21:08] as one. [21:08] Is there something, [21:10] I thought that there was something [21:11] uniquely British [21:12] about the inequality conversation [21:14] in that [21:15] where historically, [21:16] this country has this [21:18] kind of feudal system. [21:20] he's like by divine right [21:22] been given this land [21:23] by his ancestors, [21:24] but he still considers himself [21:26] part of the inequality debate. [21:27] Did you, [21:28] did you find that [21:28] when you were doing the documentary? [21:30] Yeah. [21:30] So Francis Fulford [21:31] is like 29th generation air [21:33] of like a big, [21:33] a big massive amount [21:35] of tract of land [21:35] in Devon. [21:37] To be fair, [21:38] actually one of the, [21:39] one of the more pleasant people [21:40] that's been talking with. [21:41] I didn't mind Francis Fulford [21:42] then. [21:43] But he, [21:44] he brought up this interesting idea [21:46] which is like, [21:46] well, [21:47] we can't pay it [21:48] because we're not liquid. [21:49] And this goes back [21:50] to the point [21:50] which I just made right, [21:51] which is you cannot have [21:53] Elon Musk going everything [21:54] and your kids own something. [21:56] And people sometimes say, [21:57] well, [21:57] you can't tax them [21:57] because then they might [21:58] have to sell their assets. [21:59] All right. [22:01] These guys are rich [22:02] because they own assets. [22:03] All right. [22:03] They have enormous amounts [22:04] of passive income. [22:05] You've got wealth [22:05] of one billion pounds. [22:06] You're going to make [22:06] like a million pounds [22:07] a week passive income. [22:09] All right. [22:09] They're going to be [22:10] buying up assets. [22:13] You want your kids [22:14] to own assets. [22:15] These guys own all the assets. [22:17] And yet we say [22:18] you can't tax them [22:19] because they might have [22:20] to sell an asset. [22:21] If the people who own [22:22] all of the assets [22:23] never have to sell an asset, [22:26] how the fuck [22:27] do you expect your kids [22:27] to get an asset? [22:30] Maybe it's good [22:31] that the people [22:32] who own all the assets [22:33] sometimes sell an asset. [22:36] This is exactly the point [22:37] I'm trying to make. [22:38] This is, I think, [22:39] you know, [22:40] people think this is [22:40] politics of envy. [22:41] It's the politics [22:42] of fucking poverty. [22:43] If you allow [22:44] the people who own [22:45] all of the assets [22:46] to never have to sell an asset, [22:48] then your kids [22:48] will never own an asset. [22:50] Do you want [22:51] your kids [22:52] to own assets? [22:53] You know, [22:53] this is, you know, [22:55] I want him to have [22:56] to sell his assets. [22:58] You know, [22:58] so that fucking farmers [22:59] can own farms. [23:00] I want the people [23:01] who own homes [23:02] to one day [23:03] have to sell their homes [23:04] so that fucking [23:05] your kids can own homes. [23:06] This is, [23:07] this is all, [23:08] everything I'm doing here [23:09] is, [23:09] I talk about inequality [23:11] for one simple reason. [23:12] I want ordinary [23:14] British working people [23:16] to be able [23:17] to own things. [23:19] It's a question [23:20] we have, [23:21] the distribution [23:23] of resources [23:24] will be determined [23:25] by who we tax. [23:27] If you don't tax [23:28] the people [23:28] that easily [23:29] have the power [23:30] to rapidly buy [23:31] all of the resources, [23:32] then they will buy [23:33] all of the resources. [23:34] This is what it's about [23:35] and it's, [23:36] you know, [23:37] it's not really, [23:38] it's not really [23:39] about anything else. [23:40] There's no sort of, [23:41] it's not about ethics [23:42] or morality [23:42] or about fairness. [23:44] Steal when your kids [23:45] throw in assets or not. [23:47] Yeah, so, [23:48] and if you don't want [23:48] rich people [23:49] to ever sell anything, [23:50] then that's fine. [23:52] You know what I mean? [23:52] But you better get used [23:55] to being poor. [23:56] Yeah. [23:57] The, I mean, [23:59] the easiest asset [23:59] for myself [24:00] or anyone out there [24:01] to think about [24:02] when it comes to this debate [24:04] is the house, right? [24:05] Yeah. [24:06] In this country, [24:08] the famous instance [24:09] has been right to buy [24:11] Thatcherism, [24:11] privatisation. [24:13] The, [24:14] I'm just interested [24:15] in like a general sense, [24:16] what your, [24:17] what your prescription [24:18] of Thatcherism is [24:19] when it comes to [24:19] wealth inequality today. [24:21] Like, [24:22] is it, [24:23] is it point A? [24:25] Is it a symptom [24:25] of kind of, [24:26] post-war individualism [24:29] and hyper-capitalism? [24:30] What is it? [24:31] Yeah, it's a good question. [24:32] Right, so let's zoom out [24:33] if you want to understand [24:34] like where Thatcherism [24:35] falls into the big picture. [24:36] First thing to recognise [24:37] is like inequality [24:40] was incredibly, [24:42] incredibly, [24:42] incredibly high [24:43] before World War II. [24:44] Not just here, [24:45] but like basically [24:45] all over the world. [24:47] You know, [24:47] so before World War II [24:48] in the UK, [24:48] obviously, [24:49] you've got 1900s, [24:51] you've got this [24:51] industrial revolution, [24:52] massive, [24:52] massive, [24:52] massive, [24:53] massive increase [24:53] in wealth [24:54] of the country [24:55] and other parts [24:57] of Northern Europe [24:58] and it does really [25:00] very little [25:01] to reduce poverty. [25:02] In fact, [25:02] you know, [25:02] in many ways, [25:03] depending on how you measure it, [25:04] you could argue [25:05] poverty increases. [25:06] You know, [25:06] suddenly people [25:07] are like forced [25:08] to work in these [25:08] incredibly polluted, [25:10] crowded, [25:10] dirty towns, [25:11] in these incredibly [25:12] polluted, [25:12] crowded, [25:13] dirty factories [25:14] with no, [25:15] you know, [25:16] no safety restrictions [25:17] and they're working, [25:18] you know, [25:18] they have to fight hard [25:19] to not work [25:20] six days a week. [25:21] You know, [25:22] my mum, [25:22] my grandma [25:23] was born in 1926, [25:25] I think, [25:25] in London, [25:26] you know, [25:27] incredibly rich city, [25:28] incredibly rich, [25:29] the richest country [25:29] ever in the history [25:30] of the world [25:30] on the back [25:31] of the far set [25:31] of economic growth [25:32] in the world. [25:32] Three of her siblings [25:33] die of tuberculosis, [25:34] which is a preventable [25:35] disease of poverty. [25:36] So like, [25:37] the history of this country [25:38] is, [25:39] you know, [25:40] if you go to India today [25:41] and you see the kind [25:42] of incredible poverty [25:43] and inequality [25:44] which exists in India today, [25:45] that was normal here [25:45] and it was normal [25:46] in all of Europe. [25:48] So inequality is the norm. [25:49] And then you have this [25:50] like mysterious [25:52] like sort of golden, [25:54] they call it [25:54] the golden age of capitalism [25:55] post-World War II [25:56] when all of a sudden [25:58] like things change massively [25:59] and suddenly like [26:00] very ordinary people, [26:02] you know, [26:02] I mentioned my dad a lot, [26:03] just worked an ordinary job, [26:04] post office for 35 years. [26:06] Lots of like school teachers, [26:07] nurses, [26:08] can suddenly buy houses [26:09] and have retirements [26:10] and have pensions [26:10] and send the kids to university. [26:12] And that happens [26:13] because during World War II [26:15] and the immediate aftermath [26:16] of World War II, [26:17] because of things [26:17] that happened [26:18] during World War II [26:19] and the need [26:19] for the state [26:20] to suddenly own [26:21] enormous amounts [26:22] of the wealth, [26:23] the productive, [26:23] it's important for people [26:24] to recognise [26:24] wealth is the productive [26:25] capacity of the economy. [26:28] Suddenly we have [26:29] these massively empowered states [26:30] which decide [26:31] to massively increase [26:32] taxation on rich people [26:33] and then you get [26:34] this golden age [26:35] where just ordinary people [26:36] can buy houses. [26:37] It's really important [26:38] for people to recognise [26:38] because, you know, [26:40] if you don't have [26:40] the big picture [26:41] historical international context, [26:42] you could easily think [26:43] that's just the norm. [26:44] That is not the norm. [26:45] That this is a really strange, [26:47] unusual period of capitalism. [26:50] This 70-year period [26:51] which we're coming out of now, [26:53] post-World War II, [26:54] of this empowerment [26:55] of the average working man [26:57] and woman. [26:59] And, you know, [27:00] obviously, [27:01] like, you know, [27:01] the elites [27:02] who saw their power fall, [27:05] you know, [27:06] because suddenly [27:06] that previously [27:07] they consume everything. [27:08] Everyone else lives [27:09] on like basic bare essentials. [27:11] You know, [27:11] the whole economy [27:11] is built around [27:12] the luxury [27:12] of the super-rich [27:14] and the elites, [27:15] the aristocracy, [27:16] whoever. [27:17] And they're pissed off. [27:18] You know, [27:18] they don't like it. [27:20] They don't like the fact [27:21] that suddenly, [27:21] you know, [27:21] everybody can afford [27:22] a good life [27:23] and they don't own [27:23] the country anymore. [27:25] You know, [27:26] and then they start funding, [27:27] you know, [27:28] people like Milton Friedman, [27:29] these economists, [27:30] these Austrian economists [27:31] sending these ideas, [27:32] Ayn Rand, [27:32] who say, you know, [27:34] actually, no, [27:35] it's not good for society. [27:36] You know, [27:36] greed is good. [27:37] You know, [27:38] we need to give power [27:40] back to the individual. [27:41] And they slash taxes [27:42] on the rich. [27:43] And as soon as you do that, [27:45] you let this genie [27:45] back out of the bottle, [27:47] which is, [27:47] if you allow a billionaire, [27:50] the important thing [27:52] is the passive income. [27:53] So if I'm a billionaire, [27:54] I'm not taxed, [27:55] I'm making 5%, [27:56] you know, [27:57] Bassem Haider [27:58] in the documentaries, [27:58] he won't accept [27:59] less than 12%. [28:00] I'm making 12% [28:01] on a billion pounds, [28:02] 120 million pounds a year. [28:03] You know what I mean? [28:04] That's a freaking lot of money. [28:05] Two and a half million pounds [28:06] a week. [28:06] Like, [28:07] as soon as that's untaxed, [28:08] they're buying, [28:09] they're buying, [28:09] they're buying, [28:10] they're buying. [28:10] But what you need to recognise [28:11] about the rich is, [28:12] very rich people [28:13] have what we call [28:13] in economics [28:14] a low marginal propensity [28:15] to consume. [28:16] So if you suddenly [28:16] cut their taxes, [28:17] what that means is [28:18] they won't in general [28:19] increase their consumption. [28:21] They won't go on more holidays, [28:23] you know, [28:23] because they already had [28:24] all the money [28:24] they needed to do that. [28:25] What they will do [28:26] is they'll start buying assets. [28:28] And then they start [28:28] to buy more assets [28:29] and more assets [28:29] and more assets. [28:30] And then that's [28:30] when you start to see [28:31] the loss of asset holding [28:33] in other groups of society. [28:34] The working class goes, [28:35] more recently, [28:36] the government goes. [28:37] But eventually, [28:38] you reach the kind of point [28:39] right now [28:39] where the kind of [28:40] weak holders of assets, [28:42] like there are some groups [28:43] in society [28:43] who have given up [28:44] their assets quite easily. [28:45] You know, [28:45] you see older people [28:47] in working class families [28:48] that just sell their house [28:50] to get through their retirement [28:51] and don't really think about, [28:52] well, can my kids get a house? [28:53] You know, [28:54] and government wealth [28:54] has collapsed. [28:55] Now really, [28:56] the only people [28:56] who are holding on to wealth [28:57] is like the Western middle class, [28:59] sort of upper middle class [29:00] holding on to wealth. [29:01] They don't want to let it go. [29:02] So suddenly nobody's selling. [29:04] And then what you see [29:05] is, [29:06] well, the rich still have [29:07] that massive passive income. [29:08] Nobody's selling. [29:09] So what you see [29:10] is asset prices. [29:11] It's not just housing. [29:12] All assets got gold price. [29:14] First thing I did [29:14] as soon as COVID happened, [29:15] I bought a million pounds of gold [29:17] because I knew [29:18] the rich are going to get so rich, [29:19] asset price is going to go to the moon. [29:21] Every stock market in the world, [29:22] massive all-time high, [29:23] you know, [29:24] crypto, [29:25] AI, [29:25] everything's going up, [29:26] land, [29:27] everything, [29:27] everything. [29:27] And that is, [29:28] what that is, [29:30] is if you allow the rich [29:31] to just accumulate money. [29:32] Assets, [29:32] assets, [29:33] assets, [29:33] assets. [29:33] But then, [29:34] what does that mean? [29:35] Well, [29:35] now they're even richer on paper [29:36] because the asset prices have gone up. [29:37] And who owns the assets? [29:38] The rich. [29:39] So eventually, [29:40] they get so rich [29:41] that they do start to consume. [29:43] They do start to consume more. [29:44] And that's when you see [29:44] these obscene things [29:45] like Jeff Bezos [29:46] renting Venice for a weekend. [29:48] You know what I mean? [29:49] These guys start to send [29:50] spaceships to the moon. [29:51] And they start to actually [29:52] consume the resources. [29:54] And then that is, [29:55] and that's what we've seen [29:55] in the last five, six years. [29:56] The next stage of this [29:57] where the rich are so rich, [29:59] there's nobody left, [30:00] no weak holders of assets [30:02] left to sell [30:02] that there's nothing [30:05] they can do [30:05] but consume more. [30:07] And that is when [30:08] ordinary people start realising, [30:09] oh fuck, [30:10] suddenly my kids [30:11] can't go to university. [30:12] Well, the universities [30:13] are still there. [30:14] Who's going? [30:14] Go to LSE, [30:16] it's full of the kids [30:17] of millionaires and billionaires. [30:18] That's who's squeezed you out. [30:20] You know, [30:20] why can't you get [30:21] a dentist appointment, right? [30:22] A lot of my mates [30:23] are dentists. [30:24] They're fucking doing [30:25] Botox for rich people. [30:26] They're doing fucking [30:27] Invisalign for rich people. [30:29] That's why you can't [30:29] get a dentist appointment. [30:31] You know, [30:31] why can't you get a doctor? [30:32] Because they're all fucking [30:32] doing plastic surgery [30:33] for rich people. [30:34] You know, [30:34] the reason you can't [30:35] get a good economist [30:35] is because people like me [30:36] are managing money [30:37] for rich people. [30:38] Like, [30:39] now they're starting [30:39] to increase their consumption [30:40] and you're getting out. [30:42] The next stage of this, [30:42] which is like really worrying, [30:43] is, you know, [30:44] they're funding AI, [30:45] which is, [30:46] what's AI going to use? [30:47] Water. [30:49] You know who needs water? [30:50] Your fucking kids, mate. [30:51] Yeah. [30:51] You know, [30:52] like, [30:52] this is really what, [30:54] the point I'm trying to make is, [30:58] wealthy people [30:59] do not exist in abstract. [31:01] You are competing with them [31:02] for ownership of resources, [31:04] but also the right [31:05] to eat fucking food. [31:07] You know, [31:07] you know about the famines [31:08] in India and colonialism, [31:09] right? [31:10] You know, [31:10] we people, [31:11] like millions of people [31:11] starving to death in India [31:12] next to fields [31:13] which are growing cotton [31:15] to send to England. [31:17] This is what happens [31:18] if you don't protect [31:18] your access to resources. [31:20] You know, [31:21] this is, [31:21] wealth inequality [31:22] is not just a, [31:23] it's not just an abstract thing. [31:25] it's access to resources. [31:27] So really, [31:27] all Thatcher did [31:28] is she let that genie [31:30] back out of the bottle. [31:31] But this is nothing new. [31:33] This is nothing new. [31:34] You know, [31:34] my grandparents, [31:35] your grandparents, [31:36] lived in, [31:36] oh, [31:36] I don't know, [31:37] but like most people's grandparents, [31:40] lived in desperate poverty. [31:41] And my grandparents lived here in London [31:44] at the back end [31:44] of the Industrial Revolution. [31:46] Never had we seen [31:47] in the history of humanity [31:48] economic growth [31:49] of that speed. [31:50] And yet the average [31:51] British man and woman [31:53] in the capital of that empire [31:55] lived in desperate poverty. [31:56] And all Thatcher has done [31:57] is allowed once more [32:00] the rich to exert their power. [32:03] And, you know, [32:04] until and unless [32:05] poor and ordinary people [32:07] protect themselves from the rich, [32:08] the rich will take everything. [32:09] Not because they're evil, [32:11] but simply because [32:12] they have the power to do that. [32:14] They have the passive income [32:15] to do that. [32:16] And they will buy everything. [32:18] In that there's kind of, [32:20] there's the inherent competition [32:22] between the rich and poor. [32:22] there is the kind of, [32:25] the sense amongst [32:27] the working and middle classes [32:28] that you're fighting [32:29] a losing battle against [32:30] the super wealthy. [32:31] Yeah. [32:32] In the documentary, [32:33] you meet a guy called Samuel Leeds. [32:35] Yeah. [32:35] It's like property guru, [32:38] like online coach kind of guy. [32:40] Yeah. [32:41] That claims to be [32:42] from humble beginnings, [32:44] makes his money by essentially [32:45] exploiting the desperation [32:47] of other people. [32:48] Yeah. [32:49] And I guess [32:51] when I saw the interaction [32:53] between the two of you there, [32:54] I thought to myself, [32:55] this seems like [32:56] a fork in the road moment, [32:58] almost. [32:59] One person decided [33:00] I'm going to compete [33:03] in the marketplace [33:04] of the super wealthy [33:05] and the ordinary [33:06] by becoming one [33:07] of the super wealthy, [33:08] by employing all [33:10] of the tactics [33:10] of the super wealthy [33:11] on my peers. [33:13] Yeah. [33:13] And you've gone the other way [33:15] to say, [33:17] well, no, [33:17] I need to highlight this. [33:18] I need to be the canary [33:19] in the coal mine [33:19] and try to push for tax justice, [33:24] wealth justice, [33:24] whatever it might be. [33:25] Yeah. [33:25] Did you ever think [33:26] when you were coming up [33:27] that you could end up [33:28] like someone like that? [33:30] So, [33:31] people who know [33:32] my back story [33:33] will know I worked [33:34] as a trader [33:34] for Citibank [33:35] from 2008 to 2014. [33:37] I come from [33:38] a poor background [33:39] in Ilford [33:40] in East London. [33:41] I always wanted [33:42] to be rich. [33:43] I don't think [33:44] I was in any way [33:46] a particularly good person. [33:47] I just wanted [33:48] to make money. [33:48] I wanted to be successful [33:49] and I was lucky. [33:52] I'd made a lot of money [33:53] quite young [33:54] in my early 20s. [33:56] I studied economics. [33:58] Then my job [33:59] as a trader [33:59] was basically [34:00] to analyse economies. [34:01] I saw that economies [34:03] were weaker [34:04] than predicted. [34:05] I'd studied economics. [34:06] I wanted to understand [34:07] why are our predictions wrong? [34:08] What are we missing? [34:10] And I came to this conclusion. [34:11] I was like a maths kid, [34:13] really. [34:13] I did maths and economics. [34:15] And I was looking at this [34:16] with very like [34:16] a cold maths brain. [34:18] Let's analyse. [34:19] Let's analyse. [34:20] And my conclusion was, [34:22] oh, [34:22] the reason economy [34:23] is getting worse [34:23] is because we're missing [34:24] economists aren't really [34:26] adequately weighting [34:28] or really understanding [34:29] the significance [34:29] of growing wealth inequality. [34:32] And because of just [34:33] a basic mathematical [34:34] understanding [34:34] of exponential growth, [34:36] you can see very quickly [34:36] that's going to accelerate. [34:39] And, [34:40] you know, [34:40] I was in this weird space [34:41] on the trading floor [34:41] where, [34:42] you know, [34:44] your job is to just [34:45] bet on things. [34:45] And it's, [34:46] you know, [34:46] so I just bet on, [34:47] have you seen the big short? [34:49] There's a scene [34:49] where Brad Pitt, [34:50] the two young traders [34:51] put a bet on [34:52] the economic collapse [34:53] and they're like [34:54] making money [34:54] and they're dancing. [34:55] And Brad Pitt's like, [34:55] stop fucking dancing. [34:57] You know, [34:57] do you know what it means? [34:58] Do you know what happens [34:59] to suicide rates? [34:59] You bet against the US economy. [35:01] You know, [35:01] marriages will break down. [35:02] People will commit suicide. [35:03] Families will be destroyed. [35:05] But, [35:06] you know, [35:06] nobody actually says that [35:06] on the trading floor. [35:07] And I just had to sort of [35:08] sit there, [35:08] put this bet on. [35:10] 2011, [35:10] I was Citibank's top trader. [35:12] I got paid millions of dollars. [35:15] And I just got, [35:15] you know, [35:15] and I just turned 25 [35:17] and I had to sit with this idea [35:19] that like, [35:19] oh fuck, [35:20] like, [35:20] what does that mean [35:21] if I'm right? [35:22] So, [35:22] you know, [35:24] you know, [35:25] Samuel Lee's not my favourite guy, [35:26] but the fact is like, [35:28] the way I made money [35:29] was very specific. [35:30] I made money, [35:31] I didn't just make money [35:32] by doing business or whatever. [35:34] My job was specifically [35:36] to understand [35:37] why are our economies collapsing? [35:39] And, [35:39] the reason that [35:40] the bets were profitable [35:41] was not just because [35:42] they were right, [35:43] they were profitable [35:44] because they were right [35:44] and not broadly understood. [35:46] So, [35:47] you know, [35:48] I think that, [35:48] you know, [35:49] I'm not, [35:49] you know, [35:49] I'm not a big moral philosopher [35:51] or anything, [35:51] but if you specifically [35:54] are making money, [35:55] if your job is telling you, [35:57] you specifically [35:58] are the only guy, [35:59] one of the only guys [36:00] who really understands [36:01] why the economy [36:02] is not just collapsing now [36:04] but is going to continue [36:04] to collapse, [36:07] then it's your job, [36:08] isn't it? [36:08] You know, [36:09] and, [36:09] you know, [36:11] I don't think you have to be a saint [36:12] and I don't think I am a saint. [36:13] You know, [36:13] like, [36:14] if you walk down the street [36:15] and you see someone's house [36:16] is on fire, [36:18] you're not going to be like, [36:19] oh, [36:19] well, [36:19] that's the fire brigade's job. [36:22] You know, [36:22] you don't, [36:23] you're the guy who saw it. [36:25] You know, [36:25] then it's your job. [36:26] You know, [36:26] it's your job to call the fire brigade [36:27] and it's your job [36:28] to fucking knock on the doors [36:29] and shout [36:30] and throw fucking stones [36:31] and make sure no one's in the, [36:32] that's your job. [36:32] Like, [36:33] all I see myself [36:34] is as that basically, [36:35] like, [36:36] just randomly, [36:37] because of what I studied [36:38] and the job I got, [36:39] I happen to be the guy [36:41] who was on the fucking lookout [36:43] on the Titanic [36:44] when the iceberg is there. [36:46] You know, [36:46] and it wasn't Samuel Leeds [36:47] on the lookout, [36:47] it was me. [36:48] You know, [36:48] and I saw it [36:49] and so, [36:51] the only reason I do it [36:52] is just because [36:53] it was my job for years [36:55] to understand this thing. [36:57] You know, [36:57] it wasn't your job, [36:58] you know, [36:58] so it's my responsibility, [36:59] isn't it? [37:00] Do you think that there is, [37:02] like, [37:03] it seems, [37:04] when you're, [37:05] when you're talking about that, [37:05] you're saying that there's [37:07] a level of responsibility [37:08] with somebody. [37:09] Do you think [37:10] that it's the system itself [37:13] that's led people [37:14] to kind of, [37:15] to morph their brain chemistry [37:17] almost, [37:18] to be the individual [37:20] and say, [37:20] well, [37:21] there's a fire there, [37:22] I'm not going to put it out, [37:23] somebody else will, [37:24] I need to focus on my bag, [37:26] you know, [37:26] like, [37:28] the kind of, [37:30] the selfishness [37:30] that's inherent [37:31] in this, [37:32] like, [37:32] this new world [37:33] of buy my course, [37:34] buy my thing, [37:35] you can be wealthy like me [37:37] if you buy this crypto coin [37:38] or whatever it might be, [37:39] that there's something [37:40] in capitalism itself [37:42] that's morphed humanity [37:45] to be selfish [37:47] and to be individualistic [37:50] and corrupting humanity almost. [37:52] Yeah, [37:52] so, [37:52] so I lived in Japan [37:53] for two years, [37:54] 2012 to 2014 [37:55] and I grew to love it [37:58] and I learned Japanese [37:59] and I go back very often, [38:00] I've got a lot of Japanese friends [38:02] and I find it really interesting [38:04] when I talk about, [38:04] like, [38:05] the work that I do now [38:06] to Japanese people, [38:08] they're like, [38:08] oh, [38:08] you know, [38:09] you're an economist, [38:10] you're trying to reduce inequality [38:11] or because I think [38:14] the economy's going to keep being worse [38:15] if we don't do anything about it, [38:17] you know, [38:17] they're always like, [38:17] oh, [38:18] that's really good, [38:20] like, [38:20] good on you for doing that [38:21] but then when I've spoken [38:25] in this country, [38:25] obviously I've spoken a lot, [38:26] some people are like that [38:27] but I get a lot of [38:28] really interesting reactions, [38:29] I get, [38:30] I think, [38:30] scepticism, [38:31] a lot of scepticism, [38:32] like, [38:32] oh, [38:33] why would somebody, [38:34] you know, [38:34] why would somebody quit [38:35] a well-paying job [38:36] to try and stop [38:36] their society from collapsing? [38:38] Some people seem to, [38:38] like, [38:38] not be able to understand, [38:39] like, [38:40] that that could be real [38:41] and I think, [38:42] sort of like, [38:42] maybe society collapsing [38:44] is a thing worth working for. [38:47] Sometimes one of the most [38:48] interesting reactions I get [38:49] is anger. [38:51] People are angry at me, [38:51] like, [38:52] what the fuck, [38:52] what the fuck are you doing? [38:54] And I find that so interesting [38:56] and I think that [38:57] there's a Japanese horror movie [39:00] have you seen [39:00] called Battle Royale? [39:02] Yes, [39:02] yeah. [39:02] Great horror movie. [39:03] Fantastic. [39:03] Apparently one of Tarantino's favourites [39:05] and it's about this idea [39:06] that, like, [39:07] once a year they send, [39:07] basically totally ripped off [39:08] by the Hunger Games. [39:09] Yeah. [39:09] The idea is you send [39:11] one class of school kids [39:13] every year [39:13] to like a desert island [39:15] to fight to the death [39:16] with one winner. [39:16] So ripped off by the Hunger Games. [39:18] A lot bigger map [39:18] than the Hunger Games as well [39:19] might be said. [39:20] Yeah, [39:20] and this, [39:22] in my opinion, [39:23] is basically, [39:24] this movie is about [39:25] different attitudes [39:26] towards the economy [39:27] culturally [39:29] between Japan and the West [39:30] and Japan, [39:31] I don't think Japan [39:32] is like a perfect country [39:33] but [39:33] they really build into [39:36] their kids from young. [39:38] You really have [39:39] a responsibility to society. [39:40] So when somebody like me [39:41] says, [39:42] oh, [39:42] I quit my job [39:42] because I made enough money [39:43] and I wanted to prevent [39:44] a societal disaster, [39:46] people are like, [39:47] good. [39:48] But I think in this country [39:49] and, you know, [39:51] it probably goes back [39:52] to these enlightenment. [39:52] Have you ever seen the movie, [39:54] the clip online [39:55] of Jordan Peterson [39:55] crying about the individual? [39:57] Yeah. [39:58] Only the individual [39:59] that suffers. [40:01] The group does not suffer. [40:03] And I think, [40:04] you know, [40:04] like, [40:05] as somebody who's, [40:06] you know, [40:06] speaks Japanese [40:07] and has spent time [40:07] between two countries, [40:08] like, [40:08] I don't think [40:09] the Japanese idea [40:10] is perfect [40:11] but I think, [40:13] of course, [40:14] the fucking group matters. [40:15] Of course, [40:15] it matters if your society [40:16] is collapsing [40:17] and of course, [40:17] it matters [40:18] that people around you [40:19] are not in desperate poverty [40:20] and unhappy, [40:21] you know, [40:22] and I think, [40:22] you know, [40:23] Margaret Thatcher, [40:24] who we've mentioned, [40:25] has this famous quote, [40:27] economics, [40:28] I'm probably going to butcher this, [40:29] economics is just the method. [40:32] The aim is to change the soul. [40:33] Something like this. [40:34] Basically, [40:35] like, [40:35] and it's amazing [40:37] that she said that [40:37] because it's almost like [40:38] she knew [40:39] that what she wanted [40:40] was to make us selfish [40:42] and I think, [40:44] if you think about it really, [40:46] there's nothing more powerful [40:48] that the rich could ever do [40:50] to protect themselves [40:52] and their wealth [40:53] than to make the poor selfish [40:54] because the poor [40:57] are individually [40:57] incredibly weak [40:58] and the rich [41:00] are individually [41:00] incredibly strong [41:01] and the only power [41:03] that the poor [41:04] and ordinary people [41:04] have ever had [41:05] to protect themselves [41:06] from the rich [41:07] is strength in numbers [41:08] and they only use that power [41:10] if they act collectively. [41:12] So if the rich [41:13] can make the poor selfish, [41:14] then they can fucking [41:15] rape and pillage [41:16] and they will take everything [41:18] because the poor, [41:18] the poor, [41:19] the poor, [41:20] you know, [41:21] you know, [41:21] freedom for the heroin [41:22] is death for the fishes. [41:24] You know, [41:24] if you, [41:25] if the rich can convince [41:26] the poor to be as selfish [41:27] as they are, [41:27] then they will eat you alive. [41:31] Why do you think [41:31] this message [41:32] is such a controversial one? [41:34] My message? [41:34] Yeah. [41:36] Well, [41:36] I mean, [41:37] I think a part of it [41:39] is because [41:39] now it's, [41:41] now it's started [41:42] to become a thing [41:42] that could actually happen. [41:44] And I might say as well, [41:45] it's not just you, [41:46] right? [41:46] Like we were talking [41:47] about Gabriel Zuckman [41:48] earlier on, [41:49] like it seems to be a habit. [41:51] You were on [41:52] The Restless Politics [41:52] a couple of months ago [41:53] and it seems to be [41:55] almost a habit [41:56] that when a progressive [41:57] economist comes on [41:58] to talk about [42:00] how we could potentially [42:01] offer a morsel [42:03] of humanity [42:04] to the working [42:05] and middle classes, [42:07] Rory Stewart blows a casket. [42:08] Yeah, [42:08] it was great [42:09] with Zuckman on. [42:09] If anyone hasn't watched [42:10] Zuckman on The Restless Politics, [42:11] it's fantastic. [42:11] It's great, [42:12] it's fantastic. [42:13] But it doesn't seem [42:15] to the Joe Soap [42:17] that what you're saying [42:18] is that controversial, [42:19] you know, [42:20] like when my parents [42:22] were my age, [42:23] they had a house, [42:24] they had a child. [42:25] Yeah, yeah. [42:25] I can't imagine [42:27] when I can't imagine [42:27] when I'm going to be able [42:28] to have those things. [42:29] And so you come [42:30] and you speak to [42:31] what we were talking [42:32] earlier on about [42:32] the disconnect [42:33] between the lobbyists, [42:34] the governments, [42:35] the people. [42:37] What you're saying [42:38] speaks to the people directly. [42:39] Yeah. [42:40] But there's so, [42:41] it seems that the commentary [42:43] is so out of tune [42:44] with what's required [42:45] that they can't, [42:47] they can't uncritically [42:49] look at what you're proposing [42:50] and say, [42:51] well, [42:51] I'm not a multi-billionaire. [42:53] I suppose Rory Stewart [42:54] isn't a multi-billionaire. [42:56] I suppose Dan Needle [42:57] isn't a multi-billionaire. [42:58] It seems like [42:59] a fairly feasible idea. [43:01] Yeah. [43:01] But they probably fall into, [43:02] I'd guess they're both [43:03] worth more than [43:04] 10 million pounds, [43:05] which is the number [43:06] that we're talking [43:06] about taxing. [43:08] But I do find it interesting, [43:10] like this reflexive kickback [43:12] because the thing is, [43:13] even if you are, [43:14] say you're worth [43:14] 50 million pounds, [43:16] right, [43:16] and my tax [43:17] would cost you a lot of money. [43:19] You know, [43:19] you'd be paying 2% [43:20] on 40 million pounds, [43:22] so you'd be paying [43:23] 800,000 pounds a year. [43:25] It's a lot. [43:28] So you don't want to do it. [43:29] You don't want to pay it. [43:29] You're going to fight against it. [43:30] But if we don't do that, [43:34] then what will happen is [43:36] inequality will continue [43:38] to grow incredibly quickly [43:39] and that will suck wealth [43:42] out of every other [43:43] group of society. [43:45] The government will, [43:46] I think it's interesting [43:46] what happened to Keir Starmer [43:47] because he came in [43:47] as like an anti-austerity, [43:49] end-austerity, [43:49] and then was forced [43:51] to do austerity. [43:52] That will happen [43:52] to every prime minister [43:53] who fails to do this [43:54] because the wealth [43:55] has to come from somewhere. [43:56] So, you know, [43:56] you have to, [43:58] if you're not stopping them [43:59] from eating you, [43:59] then you are being eaten, [44:01] basically. [44:02] Things will rapidly worsen. [44:04] Living standards [44:05] will rapidly worsen. [44:06] The government will be forced [44:07] to continue to dismantle [44:08] the welfare state, [44:09] which it's been doing, [44:10] you know, [44:11] for already 15 years now. [44:13] People will get [44:14] increasingly angry. [44:17] Radical politicians [44:18] of the far right [44:21] and probably as time goes on [44:22] also of the far left [44:23] will become more popular. [44:25] And I think it's really obvious [44:29] that we will move [44:29] into a period [44:30] of like extreme chaos. [44:32] And if you are somebody [44:33] who's worth 50 million quid, [44:35] who has more to lose [44:36] than pushing the society [44:37] you live in [44:38] into extreme chaos [44:39] than fucking you? [44:41] You know, [44:41] people who have [44:42] that level of wealth [44:42] live extremely [44:44] comfortable lives, right? [44:46] If you're worth 50 million quid, [44:47] you're making passive income [44:48] of, you know, [44:49] three million quid a year. [44:51] You know, [44:51] these guys have very, [44:52] that's passive income. [44:53] Very, very, [44:54] very good lives [44:55] these guys live. [44:56] And yet, [44:57] I think what they don't understand [44:58] is I am the peaceful option here. [45:01] If you say no to me, [45:02] what you are saying, [45:03] you are voting for chaos. [45:05] Because I am not trying [45:06] to redistribute the wealth. [45:07] I'm trying to stop [45:08] the redistribution [45:09] which is currently happening, [45:11] which is rapidly pushing [45:12] millions of people [45:13] in this country, [45:14] hundreds of millions of people [45:15] across the Western world [45:16] into really serious poverty. [45:18] And, you know, [45:20] obviously they're going to start [45:21] voting for extreme politicians. [45:22] Obviously, you know, [45:25] this could go in any direction. [45:28] And so these people are, [45:29] but I think really [45:30] also what you're seeing [45:31] is I never marketed myself [45:35] or have targeted [45:36] like the upper middle class. [45:38] I've always been trying [45:40] to educate and persuade [45:41] like people, [45:43] ordinary people, [45:44] working class, [45:45] you know, [45:45] lower middle class people. [45:47] And I think the way [45:50] that I've like communicated [45:52] that maybe I've, [45:54] maybe sometimes [45:54] I intentionally antagonize them [45:56] a little bit. [45:57] I'll tell you what it reminds me of. [45:59] So I did two year [45:59] masters at Oxford, right? [46:01] And I was 31 [46:02] when I started that course. [46:03] After my end of my first year, [46:05] I had like my exams. [46:07] And Oxford, [46:07] you have to wear a fucking bow tie [46:08] and a cape to your exams. [46:10] And I was like, [46:11] what the fuck? [46:11] I had like a three hour [46:12] algebra exam. [46:13] You go in, [46:14] take your bow tie [46:14] and your cape off. [46:15] They told me I could take it off. [46:16] That's nice, man. [46:17] Yeah. [46:17] When I walked out of the exam, [46:18] I had the bow tie [46:19] like round my neck. [46:21] Like you're coming back [46:21] from your crown. [46:22] And some guy was like, [46:22] what are you? [46:23] Like a 50 year old man, [46:24] genuinely angry. [46:24] What do you think you're doing? [46:26] And I was shocked, right? [46:27] Yeah. [46:28] And I was like, [46:29] do your bow tie up. [46:31] I'm a 31 year old man. [46:32] I've just done a three hour [46:33] macroeconomic exam. [46:35] And I couldn't believe [46:36] what he was saying to me. [46:37] He was genuinely furious. [46:39] I was like, [46:40] what? [46:41] He goes, [46:41] don't you know how to do a bow tie? [46:44] And obviously I was like, [46:45] no, actually I don't. [46:46] Why don't you do it for me? [46:47] And then this fucking furious [46:48] old man's doing my bow tie [46:49] and he says, [46:50] I know chances like you. [46:51] Like that. [46:52] And I was thinking, [46:52] probably won't fucking [46:53] fix your fucking boiler, did he? [46:54] And yeah, [46:55] I think, you know, [46:56] I think the upper middle class [46:58] doesn't really like [46:58] the way I communicate. [46:59] And I think what we really need, [47:01] like posher sounding people [47:04] to try and, [47:06] because the truth is like, [47:08] I'm on their side here. [47:10] They are going to get eaten alive [47:11] if they don't take action. [47:12] I don't think they realise [47:13] they're next on the plate. [47:14] But, you know, [47:15] we live in a country [47:16] where class divisions [47:16] are incredibly deep. [47:17] The way that I communicate [47:19] has always been designed [47:20] to appeal to [47:21] the working classes [47:22] and people more [47:23] towards the middle, [47:24] I guess, you know, [47:24] the bottom 70%. [47:26] And of course, [47:27] when the top 10% [47:28] hear me say, [47:29] you know, [47:30] tax wealth, [47:30] they think I'm talking about them. [47:32] But I'm not talking about them. [47:33] You know, [47:33] and I think, [47:34] I think what you're seeing is, [47:35] it's a quote from the Bible, [47:37] the love of money [47:38] is the root of all evil. [47:39] You know, [47:39] these guys view themselves [47:40] as the rich, [47:41] you know, [47:41] and they don't realise [47:42] that the real threat [47:43] is the extremely rich [47:44] who are going to come [47:45] and eat them. [47:45] Gary Stevenson, [47:46] arigatou gozaimasu. [47:48] Do itashimashite. [47:49] And, [47:50] How to Get Filthy Rich [47:51] is available on [47:53] Channel 4 Streaming [47:54] right now. [47:55] Yeah, [47:55] available now. [47:56] Cool.