'I think it's nuts': Leon Panetta reacts to Trump's public threats against Iran

[0:00] Joining us now is Leon Panetta, former Secretary of Defense and former Director of the CIA. [0:05] Economic terrorism, is that what you see happening here on both sides? [0:12] I guess that's the way the parties want to describe it, and it's true, and it's people [0:21] here in this country and around the world who are paying the price for that, because the reality is [0:28] that we now have a blockade on top of a blockade to ensure that oil will not get through the [0:35] Straits of Hormuz. And what that does is it guarantees continuing economic chaos and rising [0:44] prices. So I'm just not sure whether pointing a gun at each other's head is going to result in any [0:53] kind of negotiated resolution to this war. I think the negotiations that we've seen are at [1:01] least the bluster around them have played out quite publicly in many ways with the president [1:06] repeatedly making deadlines and threats on social media in interviews and then walking them back [1:12] in some cases. Is there a pro to that approach of being out there and sending messages that you [1:21] know will eventually land in Iran? Or what do you make of the public nature of the discourse? [1:28] Chris, I think it's nuts. How can you have negotiations that are very sensitive and very [1:36] important to trying to bring this war to a conclusion and have it play out in public? You can't [1:46] negotiate in public. It's very difficult to do. And to have the vice president then say, no, no, [1:54] you know, this is what we said. This is what we did. And then have the Iranians or have reports [1:59] on whether it's a 20 year suspension or whether it's a three year or five year suspension and have [2:06] that play out in the public is just it. What it does is it guarantees that you're not going to be [2:15] successful. You've got it. You've got to develop a trusting relationship. I don't, you know, [2:20] I realize we're dealing with enemies, but the fact is they've got to have some trust [2:25] that they can negotiate in secret and be able to exchange offers and proposals and try to [2:33] negotiate an approach here. If that continues to play out in public, I'm just not sure we're going [2:40] to be able to arrive at the kind of agreement that can provide a more permanent ceasefire. [2:45] So I do want to play to you something that J.D. Vance said about what happened behind closed doors [2:53] as an explanation for the way things ended as they did without a deal. Let's take a listen. [3:00] This is ultimately why we left Pakistan, because what we figured out is that they were unable, [3:06] I think the team that was there was unable to cut a deal and they had to go back to Tehran, [3:12] either from the Supreme Leader or somebody else, and actually get approval to the terms that we had set. [3:17] So, again, whether we have further conversations, whether we ultimately get to a deal, [3:23] I really think the ball is in the Iranian court. [3:26] What do you make of that explanation? [3:32] I don't think that's very helpful. I really don't. I mean, from my own experience, [3:37] when you're negotiating and you're exchanging thoughts and ideas and proposals, [3:44] you've got to keep a certain amount of confidence within the party so that they know they can kind [3:52] of trust each other in terms of what they're saying. To take these issues and then go public [4:00] with them and say what you think or what you suspect is going on with the Iranians is the kind [4:08] of speculation that I think undermines any hope of developing a trusting relationship, [4:16] because they're going to assume that no matter what they say or what they do, [4:22] that suddenly it's going to go public. And I just, I'm not somebody who believes [4:31] that you can ultimately negotiate a sensitive agreement on war issues that will hopefully [4:41] resolve this kind of issue and have that play out in the media. That's just not going to work. [4:51] And in the middle of this actual war, the president has gotten into a verbal war with the Pope. [4:58] He suggested that Leo is weak on crime, that he's terrible on foreign policy, that he wouldn't be Pope [5:05] without him, meaning Donald Trump. And then he posted this photo, AI, depicting himself as a Christ-like [5:13] figure healing the sick. I have to ask, as a former White House chief of staff, I think you've met [5:18] with multiple Popes. What is your take on all of this? I've, I, in 50 years, over 50 years of public [5:32] life, I've never seen anything like this. This is, this is strange beyond belief to have a president [5:42] of the United States criticizing a Pope and then doing the kind of paintings that he did portraying [5:54] himself as Christ-like. This, this is unheard of. And, you know, I'm a Catholic. I'm very offended [6:06] that the president would openly criticize the Pope. But more importantly, I think people of faith [6:15] believe that religion is deeply private and deeply personal and should not be political and should not [6:26] be used as an excuse for war. And behaving that way, I believe sends a message to the world that [6:40] the United States and particularly the president are really not very credible in terms of what [6:48] they're saying. And if you lose credibility as a president, you've lost the ability to lead this [6:57] country. Former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, it's always so good to have you on the program. [7:04] Thank you. Good to be with you.