How Tucker Carlson racist “great replacement theory” fueled Trump’s political power

[0:05] Greetings, and welcome back to Clock It! [0:09] And our new little set, look at us! [0:10] Come on now! [0:12] I mean, we are trying some new things. [0:15] Let us know in the comments what you think. [0:17] I want to start where I always start. [0:20] I think what the Trump administration is doing right now [0:22] is just not a series of one-offs, Mr. Daniels. [0:24] It is connected! [0:26] It is all pointed at November, [0:27] and I think they're trying to engineer the outcome of an election. [0:30] Now, engineer the outcome is very specific. [0:33] Is that the same as stealing an election? [0:36] Because when people hear that, [0:37] they're thinking ballot boxes, voting machines. [0:39] We will get into it. Simone has lots of thoughts. [0:41] Well, you know what? [0:42] This is why I like having a reporter, uh, sitting next to me, child. [0:47] Yes, yes, yes. [0:48] To be very clear, I do think they are trying to steal it, okay? [0:50] But it's actually not about what happens on election day. [0:52] It's not about ballot boxes. [0:53] It's about everything else that they are doing before it. [0:56] We also have Dr. Ibram X. Kendi, who is joining us later. [0:59] His new book is out now. You can go get it. [1:02] And it walks through the historical through line, [1:04] the playbook, basically, that helps explain [1:06] why this particular play keeps getting run over and over and over again. [1:11] And over again. And you know what? [1:12] That's just part of what's happening in the backdrop this week. [1:15] Trump, the president of the United States, [1:17] is in China with Xi Jinping. [1:19] He actually brought a whole CEO delegation with him, [1:21] which is kind of crazy. [1:22] Banks, Boeing, Cargo, Elon Musk, [1:25] the New York Times, says a $1 trillion Chinese investment deal [1:30] on U.S. soil is on the table. [1:32] He is walking in there with a weaker hand. [1:34] That's not us. That's the experts that say it. [1:36] The Iran war has us burning through munitions [1:38] at a rate nobody that cares about it is comfortable with. [1:42] I'm very uncomfortable, and I'm not an expert, [1:44] but I just, I know when to be uncomfortable. [1:46] You know an expert or two. [1:47] I'm uncomfortable, and I am concerned. [1:48] I do know some experts, okay? I know a little bit. [1:50] Now, the World Cup kicks off next month. [1:53] It's happening in Canada. It's happening in Mexico. [1:56] And it's happening right here on U.S. soil. [1:57] Now, some people might say that's all America. [1:59] Again, North American continent [2:02] is where the World Cup is happening. [2:03] And the question nobody in this administration wants to answer [2:06] is whether anybody will actually be here to watch it. [2:09] No. [2:10] Because there are fans from 39 banned countries, [2:12] apparently, that cannot come. [2:14] And FIFA is privately asking the White House [2:18] to pause ice raids during the tournament. [2:19] That's insane. Insane requests to make. [2:21] Sunday night, Netflix dropped this roast of Kevin Hart, [2:24] which I have seen clips of. I have not watched the whole thing. [2:27] But people are still arguing about it. [2:28] Between Charlie Kirk jokes, George Floyd jokes, [2:31] and the Melania Trump material that got cut. [2:34] Lots of thoughts people have. [2:35] Mm, child. I lost the last talk about this one. [2:38] Plus the cruise ship where the Hantavirus was spreading. [2:41] Oof. [2:42] Which is where the nonpolitical group chats are living this week. [2:46] I am terrified myself. [2:47] Very terrified. [2:48] First off, and this is important, [2:50] the scientists and the medical professionals [2:52] are all saying this is not COVID 2.0. [2:55] So everybody can calm down a little bit. [2:57] The Hantavirus is harder to catch. [2:59] And the people on the cruise are supposed to be isolating. [3:02] So they shouldn't be out in the streets, [3:04] giving everybody the Hantavirus. [3:05] Okay, but a lot of people did get off the cruise. [3:07] One of them went to a wedding. [3:08] Look, I believe what the experts are saying. [3:10] The problem is, a whole lot of people do not believe them, [3:14] given who is in charge. [3:15] Now, to reiterate, the World Health Organization did say on Friday [3:18] that it assesses the risk to the global population posed by the event is quote-unquote low. [3:23] Hantavirus is not airborne, according to the World Health Organization. [3:28] And this strain moves through what they call close and prolonged contact. [3:32] I'm using air quotes for everybody at home. [3:34] But on Monday, MSNOW senior medical analyst Dr. Ven Gupta, [3:38] well, he was on CNBC saying, maybe not. [3:41] I'm reticent to speculate because we haven't heard a lot from health officials yet. [3:45] But it seems like individuals on the ship that didn't have a long close contact [3:49] are testing positive. [3:50] And so perhaps there's something different here happening. [3:53] That is the concern. [3:54] His words, we do not believe this is another pandemic-type situation. [3:58] Important. But here's the piece that is hard to ignore. [4:02] Back in early 2020, even with the CDC's most experienced career staff in place, [4:07] they did underestimate how bad COVID was going to get. [4:10] And a lot of that staff is not there anymore. [4:12] And, Simone, that is the question that a lot of people have. [4:15] Because last April, RFK restructured the CDC, [4:20] and he laid off the full-time cruise ship inspectors. [4:23] He defunded the vessel sanitation program. [4:25] Those people are back. The cruise ship inspectors are back. [4:28] Oh, they hired them back. That's what always happens. [4:29] They fired somebody. They got dozed. [4:31] They bring them back. [4:32] And then they're like, actually, we actually need them. [4:33] They bring them back now. [4:34] Um, we talked to one of the former, as I like to call it, HBICs in the CDC, [4:39] Dr. Deborah Howery. [4:40] She actually quit the Trump administration [4:42] because she didn't want to carry out what they were saying. [4:45] They were asking her to go against the science, so on and so forth. [4:47] This happened last year. [4:48] But I bring it up because Dr. Howery told us on our show [4:52] that the people that they fired, [4:54] those aren't even the folks that would have done [4:56] the international inspections. [4:58] The international teams are people from the World Health Organization, [5:03] and they work in partnership with them. [5:05] And we do not work in partnership with the WHO. [5:06] Correct. Because they were stationed in different places across the world. [5:10] And because our partnership with the World Health Organization [5:12] was shut down or the rug was pulled out from under them, [5:15] those people were no longer there. [5:16] So even hiring the people back is not doing what needs to be done. [5:19] I'm very concerned about the hauntavirus, and it is haunt-a. [5:22] It's haunt-a. [5:23] Haunt-a, haunt-a. [5:24] I will say this. [5:25] You thought it was like COVID? [5:26] Baby. [5:28] You was in there practicing your TikTok dances? [5:29] I'm trying to get my coin. [5:31] But I talked to both my husband and our EP, Robert, on the weekend. [5:35] He was like, Eugene, calm down. [5:37] It's not COVID 2.0, so I did some reading, and that's true. [5:40] It is harder to catch. [5:42] You're supposed to apparently be around someone for a longer time. [5:46] You have to be closer than with COVID, but my question is not really about the haunt-a-virus [5:51] so much as the people working at the CDC currently. [5:54] A lot of the experts have left. [5:56] The leadership of the CDC and of HHS are political appointees. [6:01] They don't seem to give a damn what the experts say. [6:05] They don't seem to think these kinds of things are important. [6:08] And I think people have a lot of questions about how Donald Trump, [6:11] who was the president when COVID happened, who downplayed it the whole time, [6:15] if they can trust the information coming out of the government. [6:19] And that's the point. That is the point. [6:21] Like, I think we're at the point where we have to be skeptical [6:23] of everything this government says, [6:25] because they have lied to us on very small things. [6:27] The dumbest things. [6:28] Yes, over the last year and a half. [6:30] So it's like... [6:31] Ten years! Ten years. [6:32] What was the first press briefing that they ever had? [6:34] This was the largest ever crowd size in the history, period. [6:39] Larger than MLK. [6:41] So ever since then. [6:42] Yes, actually, they have been lying for a while. [6:44] The lies in this administration have been just even more egregious. [6:48] I would argue they've been more consistent about small things [6:50] that we can even see with our own eyes. [6:51] But I guess, you know, to your point, [6:53] the crowd size lie was in that vein. [6:55] So I understand why people are like, [6:56] hmm, can we trust the government? [6:58] I will just know, because, you know, [7:00] I can never walk away without a plug for Nebraska. [7:02] Yes, yes, yes. [7:03] The people that got off that cruise ship [7:05] that they are still monitoring, [7:06] they flew them to Omaha, Nebraska, [7:09] to the University of Nebraska Medical Center, [7:11] because that's where the experts are, child. [7:13] Because all great things come from the Midwest [7:16] and the Great Plains. [7:17] Sure. [7:17] And greatness comes from Nebraska, like myself. [7:19] Yes, look at that. [7:20] One of the passengers on the Haunter ship, [7:23] I don't know what it is, [7:24] um, Jake Rosemary, I hope that's, I said it right. [7:28] He said this. [7:29] Not you about to get him done. [7:30] Well, he went on today's show, he did a video, so... [7:32] Oh, my gosh. I hope he wasn't in person. [7:34] He was not in person. [7:35] I feel good right now. [7:36] I'm happy to be in a place where I know [7:38] we are well cared for, and if anything happens, [7:40] we have the medical attention that we-we need. [7:43] But this is what he said before, [7:45] um, while he was on the ship. [7:47] Listen to this. [7:48] I am currently on board the MD Hondias, [7:51] and what's happening right now [7:53] is very real for all of us here. [7:55] We're not just a story. [7:58] We're not just headlines. [8:00] We're people. [8:02] The reality is, people have died from the Haunter virus. [8:04] Yes. [8:04] It's actually quite deadly. [8:05] Mm-hmm. [8:06] There's a 40% death rate, if you get it. [8:08] Which is one of the reasons why, which the experts say, [8:10] that's one of the reasons it can't transmit that much, [8:13] because it's a higher... [8:14] Child, again, I don't... [8:16] I mean, I understand what the experts are saying. [8:17] I want them to do some more research. [8:20] Okay, I have questions. [8:21] But so, you know, again, the fear of his voice, [8:24] I understand it, it's why I'm gonna be masking up. [8:26] Yeah, that did not make me... [8:27] I apologize to everyone listening. [8:28] It didn't make anyone feel better. [8:29] It did not. You know what? [8:31] I just think we should all err on the caution [8:33] and wash your hands a little bit more. [8:34] You know, sing the birthday song while you're washing. [8:37] Uh, you might want to put a mask on. [8:39] I'm flying again at the end of this week, [8:41] and I think I ordered some KN95s, I'm not gonna lie. [8:44] Uh-huh. I also think this proves my point [8:46] about you and cruises and that cruises are... [8:48] No, to be very clear, to be very, very clear. [8:51] Concerned. [8:52] The cruise was a cruise to South America. [8:54] I don't care where the cruise is, though. [8:56] And then people must have got off that boat, [8:57] and we still don't know what happened. [8:58] I did tell my mother-in-law the other day, [8:59] I was like, this is why you should probably stay off the cruises, [9:01] and she just didn't say nothing. [9:03] No, because she's like, I'm doing my cruise. [9:04] There's a cruise. There's a cruise in your future. [9:06] It's coming very soon. [9:08] But one of the... [9:09] We had a doctor on our show this weekend to talk about it. [9:12] And what he told us is that... [9:14] Because I asked him, I said, [9:15] okay, people don't believe they can believe HHS or CDC. [9:19] Who should they listen to? [9:20] And he says, WHO, the World Health Organization, [9:24] is gonna be all over this. [9:25] They're putting stuff on their ex, [9:28] formerly known as Twitter, their Instagram. [9:30] So they are trying to communicate with the people of the world [9:34] about what's actually happening. [9:35] So you can trust the WHO, I think. [9:38] Um, and I'm going to err on the side of listening to the experts [9:42] we have talked to. [9:43] They have called me down just a teensy bit. [9:46] I just want to give the website to people. [9:48] It is www.who.int, okay? [9:55] That's international. [9:56] Who.init. [9:56] Let's move on. Let's move on, okay? [10:03] I think this is the bigger story for me, [10:05] or maybe an equally as big story, okay? [10:08] Monday night, um, Senator Cory Booker from New Jersey [10:12] was on our show, and I told Senator Booker [10:15] that we are witnessing an assault [10:16] on Black political power in America. [10:18] And he called it an assault on democracy. [10:20] And I'm like, okay, yes, we are both right, [10:22] but they are using Black people to do it. [10:24] And we are under 174 days from the midterm elections. [10:26] This is insane. [10:28] It's always interesting when we want to talk about Black people, [10:31] people, folks want to zoom out. [10:32] But let's start with the masses. [10:33] I'm trying to zoom in. [10:34] Okay? [10:35] Because that's where we're starting. [10:36] It began in Texas last summer. [10:39] Here's President Trump outside the White House in July. [10:41] Texas would be the biggest one, and that'll be five. [10:44] We're calling them for a complete redrawing [10:46] of the congressional map out there. [10:47] No, no, just a very simple redrawing. [10:49] We pick up five seats. [10:51] Very simple redrawing. [10:52] A month later, Texas Governor Greg Abbott signed off [10:54] on new districts that could deliver those five seats [10:57] to Republicans that Donald Trump just asked for. [11:00] In December, the Supreme Court let it stand. [11:03] Florida, Tennessee, Missouri, North Carolina [11:06] started to follow. [11:07] California and Virginia voters, which is really important, [11:11] Democrats fought back and went through the voters to do it. [11:14] Those had countermaps, right now, Virginia's is paused [11:17] because of their Supreme Court in that state. [11:19] Which is so insane. [11:20] And then, two weeks ago, the United States Supreme Court [11:23] all but killed the Voting Rights Act, okay, Section 2. [11:25] After that happened, now Louisiana, Alabama, [11:28] Mississippi, and South Carolina are moving with record speed [11:32] to carve up majority Black districts, [11:34] which strips Black voters of the ability [11:37] to elect the representatives of their choice. [11:38] Can I just say, as a Black woman who grew up as a Democrat [11:43] in North Omaha, Nebraska, but in a red state, [11:47] but my city, and the district, frankly, [11:50] I grew up in District 2, is a district that, [11:52] for Obama, Hillary, Biden, and Kamala Harris, [11:57] delivered an electoral college vote. [11:59] So I know the power of a community being able [12:04] to elect the representatives of their choice, [12:06] being able to go to the ballot box, [12:07] and make their voices heard, to have a voice, [12:09] just because you're in a red state. [12:10] These folks keep arguing about these folks. [12:11] I mean, elected officials. Like, in South Carolina, [12:14] South Carolina representatives were, like, going on television, [12:17] being like, look, Jim Clyburn don't represent [12:20] the rest of the state, so that's why we need [12:22] to get rid of his seat. [12:23] Well, he represent his district, baby. [12:25] That's what he's supposed to do. [12:26] So are the people, just because they live in South Carolina, [12:29] and they're not Republicans, do they not deserve representation? [12:32] And why are the people disproportionately Black [12:34] that don't deserve the representation? [12:36] Why is that? Why do you think that is? [12:38] I think that these are the vestiges of slavery [12:40] as a state representative. [12:43] A state representative out of Tennessee told me this [12:45] two years ago. Remember the Tennessee Three? [12:48] Yeah, the Tennessee Justins, one of the Justins. [12:49] Yes, one of the Justins. I went down there, [12:52] I talked to members of the Black Caucus from Tennessee, [12:54] the state delegations, and we were sitting at this man's church, [12:58] who happened to be a pastor, who was also a state representative, [13:00] and he was like, this is the vestiges of slavery. [13:02] Well, baby, this is the vestiges of slavery. [13:04] This is just like what happened after the fall of or the collapse of Reconstruction. [13:08] I think one of the things, because there's a lot of concern, [13:12] accurate, correct concern about gerrymandering, absolutely. [13:16] But to me, the VRA is really the biggest issue. [13:19] The fact that it basically doesn't exist. [13:21] So you would say this is not just about gerrymandering. [13:22] It's not. You have to zoom, like, you have to zoom out. [13:24] They're connected, and you have to pay attention [13:26] to how they're connected and who is doing the connecting. [13:29] But at the end of the day, the VRA used to give you both a pre-thing to stop. [13:36] You could say before the law passed, [13:38] this is gonna hurt us, and post. [13:40] They got rid of all of it. [13:41] And so there's no protection. [13:42] And I think they probably look at two Black people up here [13:45] complaining about, oh, no, Black people... [13:47] Absolutely. [13:48] Very much so. [13:49] Because at the end of the day, [13:50] we have not been a democracy that long. [13:53] A true democracy in this country, [13:55] frankly, I think we're still moving toward it. [13:57] But anyway, 1965 was when we had the Voting Rights Act [14:01] and the Civil Rights Act. [14:02] So 1965, that's the year my parents were born. [14:05] It's not that long ago. [14:06] It is not that long ago. [14:08] I think it's crazy. I think everybody should be fired up. [14:11] Did you see Vince Evans' tweet? [14:13] I... [14:14] Vince Evans, who is he, by the way? [14:16] Vince Evans is the executive director. [14:17] He's my friend, I would all... [14:18] I just want to be clear, Vince Evans is a friend of mine. [14:20] I know him. [14:21] Yes, yes. Vince is the executive director of the CBC. [14:23] He tweeted on Sunday. Look at that. [14:25] He did a long tweet. [14:26] More than 240 characters. [14:28] Asking why your old boss... [14:30] One of my old bosses, yes. [14:32] Bernie Sanders has been silent on the assault [14:34] on Black political representation across the South. [14:37] Now, I talked to a lot of lefties, and they were like, [14:39] why is he bothering Bernie Sanders? [14:41] Well, Bernie Sanders has a very big platform. [14:43] Yes, and it talks about inequality. [14:44] I mean, his whole thing is about how we lived in a rigged economy, [14:47] kept in place by a system of corrupt campaign finance. [14:50] Come on, you wrote it. [14:51] And I did, I did, I did. [14:53] And how the inequality in our systems show up in various spaces and places, [14:57] from healthcare, to education, to business, to voting. [15:00] And I don't think we can talk about the inequities in our system [15:04] without talking about race. [15:05] They want to tell us it's not about race. [15:07] They're like, why are we trying to make it about race? [15:09] We ain't make it about race. [15:10] Y'all make it about race. [15:12] They are carving up Black districts. [15:14] They are carving up districts of white people. [15:17] It's about race. [15:18] The reporter in me is gonna go back. [15:20] Why do you think your old boss has been a little quiet on it? [15:25] I think a lot of people have a lot of questions. [15:27] There are a lot of... [15:28] I think people need to ask Senator Sanders. [15:29] To be clear... [15:30] See, that's called a spin, ladies and gentlemen. [15:32] That's called a dodge. [15:33] But you know what? To your point, this is something that, [15:36] frankly, what people were talking about [15:38] and when his first presidential run [15:40] and his second presidential run, [15:42] I would say that Senator Sanders does understand [15:45] that the economy and race is intertwined [15:49] and that there is, like, synergy and sinister things [15:52] going on here. [15:53] Why he has not spoken to it, like, I don't... [15:56] I blame the staff, okay? [15:58] But again, the buck stops with the member. [16:00] And so, you know, we don't really do elected officials, [16:03] but the senator, sir, we are happy to have you come through. [16:07] We can talk about it. [16:09] Let's unpack it. [16:10] It'll be a long interview. [16:11] This might be... [16:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [16:12] This will be a bonus episode. [16:13] Exactly. [16:14] But at the end of the day, long story short, [16:16] I think that they're trying to steal an election. [16:18] This is one of the ways they're trying to do it. [16:20] In Tennessee, no, they're not going to take over polling places, right? [16:24] Or they're going to... [16:25] Well... [16:25] Well... [16:26] Well, they might make it feel... [16:27] Currently, right. [16:28] Currently. [16:28] But I think that it's not going to be like we saw on January 6th. [16:31] Right. [16:31] Okay, they've gotten more sophisticated. [16:32] Again, in Tennessee, not only did they get rid of the district, [16:35] like carve up the district that has majority, [16:38] like, Black voters and scatter the Black voters [16:40] in the different districts, [16:41] they also passed a law that said they don't have to notify people [16:44] when their polling places change. [16:45] So now, when you go to the ballot box in Tennessee this November, [16:48] you could be going through the wrong polling place [16:49] and nobody will tell you, [16:50] that is how they steal an election, folks. [16:52] It's very sophisticated. [16:53] It's making it harder to vote and making it confusing to vote. [16:55] We saw this in Texas as well during this primary, [16:57] where Dallas, there were shenanigans with Dallas. [16:59] And so I think the thing that is really important [17:02] for folks to remember is that it may not feel aggressive, right? [17:06] Like, and when you talk to experts about backsliding [17:08] in democracy, they talk about it not feeling... [17:11] It's not going to look like it does on TV, right? [17:13] It's not armed guards not going to rush in [17:15] and stop you from doing something. [17:17] It's the little things that we have to pay attention to. [17:19] And we're like, I like to say, [17:20] because I stole it from the internet, [17:22] if they're going to shenan... [17:23] They're going to shenan again. [17:24] Correct. [17:25] Now, there's a lot more to say about this [17:27] and some context we can put it around. [17:29] We've asked historian and author Ibram X. Kendi [17:32] to join us to do that. [17:33] He'll be right here, right after a quick break. [17:35] Welcome back, everyone. [17:38] And welcome to Dr. Ibram X. Kendi, [17:40] historian, international, best-selling author, [17:43] and founder of Howard University's [17:45] Institute for Advanced Study, [17:47] which is an interdisciplinary research enterprise [17:49] examining global racism. [17:51] Seems very timely right now. [17:52] Someone had to do it. [17:53] Okay. [17:54] His new book is called Chain of Ideas, [17:56] The Origins of Our Authoritarian Age. [17:58] Again, quite timely. [17:59] Yes. [18:00] Thank you for coming to the group chat. [18:01] Of course. [18:02] I feel the need to read from a passage [18:04] from the chain of ideas [18:06] to set the tone here, if I can, doctor. [18:08] Okay, okay. [18:09] Mm-hmm. [18:11] I know, right? [18:12] It's the dramatics. [18:13] At times, I have felt the tug of this great replacement theory [18:18] giving me the ability to empathize with people [18:20] who have been led to see me, a black man, as their replacer. [18:23] I can see their humanity because I can recall the times [18:27] when I felt my livelihood was being threatened [18:29] by demographic change. [18:30] I felt myself getting angry at times, [18:33] my unchecked bigotry feeding my anger. [18:36] But then I saw politicians manufacturing and manipulating [18:40] my anger. [18:40] I did not want my privilege to be my prison. [18:43] I wanted to imprison my privilege to free my power. [18:46] Sir. [18:47] Well, Dan. [18:48] A word. [18:49] Explain what you mean by that. [18:51] Well, I thought it was important to share, [18:55] really, how much great replacement theory has mutated. [18:59] So even as it was primarily or originally an idea [19:03] that suggested, let's say, black people were replacing [19:07] white people, it's actually mutated to say, [19:09] women are replacing men, queer people are replacing [19:13] heterosexuals, immigrants, obviously, [19:15] are replacing citizens, Muslims are replacing Christians. [19:19] And I'm a person who was raised in a Christian household. [19:21] I'm a man, I'm a heterosexual, you know, I'm a citizen. [19:24] And so I could think about and really empathize [19:27] with even white people who've been misled [19:30] into believing that they are being replaced. [19:32] But then I think it's also important for them [19:35] to see how I was able to overcome the manipulation, [19:40] because I saw who was trying to manipulate me and why. [19:43] The word that sticks out to me, [19:46] and even before you started answering, [19:47] I started thinking about it, was empathy. [19:48] And I feel like it always, marginalized people [19:52] always have to have a lot of empathy. [19:54] You have to understand why your oppressor would do it. [19:57] Right? The oppressor does not care what the oppressed [20:00] are thinking about being oppressed. [20:03] And it actually, this, the Great Replacement Theory [20:05] and all of this makes me think of, I was in college, [20:07] had a very good friend who, we were sitting in her house, [20:11] um, and we were watching the news, [20:14] and there's a news story about how this country [20:16] is gonna be a majority minority, [20:18] bombed by whatever the year is. [20:20] 2042. [20:21] Yes. Thank you. There we go. [20:22] And she said, oh, that's scary. This is a white girl. [20:26] I said, an immigrant, though. [20:27] I said, why? She said, you don't think that the people [20:30] who are in power right now are gonna be pissed and scared? [20:33] Now, this is in 2009, maybe 2010. [20:37] And that was the first time I'd ever heard someone [20:40] talk about it in that way. [20:41] She obviously wasn't calling it the Great Replacement Theory. [20:43] Um, but the idea that this would happen [20:49] and how people would react to it is really important. [20:51] And I wonder why your book is called Chain of Ideas [20:55] and not The Great Replacement. [20:57] What's the chain that has been created [21:00] and that you want people to know about? [21:01] There's a lot of links in the chain. [21:03] Correct. There are. [21:04] And the title actually comes from this French [21:08] Enlightenment thinker who was talking to the French monarchy [21:13] and was, like, in the late 1700s and was, like, you know, [21:17] chaining people with iron is an old way of controlling people. [21:22] And he said, a more enlightened despot [21:26] will chain people by their own ideas. [21:28] This was Servant, his name. [21:32] And to me, it's indicative of how Great Replacement Theory [21:38] is being used. [21:39] People already have racist and ideas, sexist ideas, [21:43] homophobic ideas, Islamophobic ideas. [21:46] So what these politicians, what these authoritarians are doing [21:50] is making them believe that those people that they already fear [21:54] are coming to take over and destroy them. [21:56] Yeah. [21:57] I mean, damn. [21:58] I am. No, I'm stressed because it's, like, so real in your... [22:02] I think a lot of times we don't, [22:04] because we're in it so much, [22:07] people don't, we don't take a step back to think about it. [22:10] But it is all about ideas that have been socialized, [22:13] that have been normalized. [22:14] It's about the way we talk about things. [22:16] Um, it has become commonplace. [22:18] Um, and I don't think people realize [22:20] that they are literally in shackles. [22:22] Well, it makes me think, as Black kids, [22:24] our parents have to, um, supplement our Black history, right? [22:28] Almost every Black kid I knew had that, um, [22:31] that yellow book. [22:32] It was like, 1,001 things to know about Black history. [22:34] It was like, Muhammad Ali was on the cover. [22:36] You had that, Charles? [22:37] Yes, we had that at our house. [22:38] Correct. Everybody had it at the house. [22:39] I also modeled for an African, uh, garb print magazine. [22:42] I need that picture. [22:43] I will bring the photos. [22:44] My mama, Terry Sanders was getting paid early off us, okay? [22:46] As she knows, smart lady. [22:48] But also indoctrinating us with history. [22:49] Correct. Correct. [22:50] And so, you know, the supplementing had to happen. [22:53] And something my dad always said was, [22:54] and still to this day says, is the smartest thing [22:58] after slavery that the land-owning rich white men did [23:02] was to convince everybody else that the Black slaves [23:05] that were being, um, freed, [23:06] and that were gonna be a part of the economy now [23:09] in a different way, were gonna be able to get jobs [23:11] and have to be paid for those jobs, [23:13] were the enemy. [23:14] That convincing the poor white people, [23:16] convincing, um, white women who didn't own land, [23:19] or white men who didn't own land, [23:21] that at the end of the day, that's the enemy. [23:23] Meanwhile, you have what we now would think about [23:27] as oligarchs and the billionaires of our time, [23:30] the folks like Elon Musk, who are actually the ones... [23:33] And Jeff Bezos. [23:34] Yes. Who are actually the ones taking from everybody. [23:37] And it's a sleight of hand that is, like, so important [23:42] to understanding this moment, understanding your book, [23:44] and understanding, really, your theory [23:46] of how this country's working right now. [23:48] Yeah, I mean, if you're a racist white oligarch, [23:51] and let's say you're stealing from white people [23:54] and black people, uh, how do you continue [23:58] to continue to engage in those robberies? [24:02] Will you convince those white people you're robbing [24:04] that they're being robbed by black people? [24:07] I am prejudiced against because I'm a rich white billionaire. [24:10] The Great Replacement is not only real, [24:13] it's the realest thing there is, and it's provably true. [24:16] You! [24:17] And so then they turn on the very people [24:29] who are also being robbed, and then allow the people [24:32] who are robbing them to continue to rob them. [24:34] And the more angry they get because they're losing, [24:37] the more they blame the people who are also being robbed. [24:39] And so it becomes this vicious cycle, I think, [24:42] that we're seeing in our politics. [24:43] How do you pull people out of that? That's terrible. [24:45] That is absolutely terrible. And also, would you say [24:47] that that is what Trumpism has done? [24:50] Mm-hmm. It has. I mean, part of the way [24:53] the way that Trumpism operates is Trump has sought [24:57] to make people, particularly white people, particularly white men, [25:02] believe that they're losing out, that they're losing their nation, [25:05] they're losing their livelihood, they're losing their status, [25:09] and convincing them that they need a protector, [25:12] they need a savior. And then he stands up [25:15] as their protector and savior. And so that's where [25:18] the march of authoritarianism comes in. [25:21] Because that's when he says, you know what, [25:22] in order to protect you and save you, [25:24] I have to do away with your civil liberties, [25:26] your rights, and everyone else's. [25:28] Mm. [25:29] I want to stick on Trump a little bit, because [25:32] it feels like every once in a while, [25:34] it becomes clear to people that the emperor [25:36] doesn't have on any clothes, right? [25:38] So we're in this war with Iran. [25:41] Gas prices are high as hell. [25:43] Beef is up. [25:44] 16% now. It was 15% last week. [25:47] Beef is up 16%. [25:49] You know, health care is astronomical. [25:51] All these things are happening. [25:53] And it feels like also a moment where those same white people [25:57] that have been tricked by Trump and Trumpism, [26:00] and largely, I would say, also Republicans over decades [26:04] about who the bad guy is, are starting to pay attention. [26:08] I think on your show, you guys had a Megyn Kelly spot [26:12] where these voters called in, and they were like, [26:15] we're gonna lose the midterms. [26:16] They're not doing anything. [26:17] This is terrible. [26:18] Yeah, they said gas is up. [26:19] They knew what was going on. [26:21] So they're starting to understand. [26:22] They don't want the war. [26:24] They want him to focus on America's needs and wants, [26:27] and gas prices, and housing, and the economy. [26:31] And he's not doing that. [26:33] We're gonna lose the election in November, all of them. [26:36] Trust me, if he continues this route. [26:38] The gas prices are so high, you know, working two jobs, [26:42] you can still barely make it. [26:44] Right now, I'm averaging between $1,900 and $2,100 a week in diesel fuel. [26:51] And it's just killing the drivers. [26:54] It's gonna put a lot of drivers out of business. [26:57] But they haven't turned on them. [26:58] But they have to be, and it takes an intense pain [27:02] for some people to understand things are bad for everybody. [27:06] And that's what it feels like is happening. [27:07] There is an awakening happening. [27:08] But do you feel that awakening has any political consequences? [27:11] Like, does it go from like, oh, I'm mad, the gas is too high, [27:15] to, oh, this person did it? [27:16] Mm-hmm. I don't think so. [27:17] But what does the doctor believe? [27:19] I mean, it's hard to say, [27:22] because the fact of the matter is, is in many ways, [27:24] these people are conceptually trapped. [27:27] And what I mean by that is, [27:29] once you are convinced that this person is your protector, [27:33] then when you, the more you lose, the more you hurt, [27:37] the more you look to that protector to help you and save you. [27:41] And that's why a great replacement theory [27:43] is so devastating politically, right? [27:46] Because it literally traps people. [27:48] And that's one of the reasons why I think we have wondered, [27:52] when are these people going to leave? [27:54] Yeah. When are you going to wake up? [27:55] But I don't think we understand [27:56] that people have been chained by their own ideas. [27:59] So how does, um, how does this dovetail [28:02] with what's happening right now with what I would call [28:04] the assault on Black political power in this country? [28:06] Because you have something happens at the Supreme Court, [28:09] and then these state legislatures move with record speed [28:12] to not just, um, erase Black political representation. [28:17] It's not about Black elected officials. [28:19] I think this is about Black voters and Black people. [28:21] And now people are just saying a quiet part out loud. [28:22] You've got legislatures being like, [28:24] look, I like Jim Clyburn, but he don't represent the state. [28:27] The state is conservative, and we all need to be conservative. [28:30] OK, well, you're not saying just get rid of Jim Clyburn. [28:34] You're diluting the voting power of Black people in his, [28:38] in the district that he represents in South Carolina, [28:41] so they don't have the ability to choose the elected officials [28:43] of their choice. That seems quite specific. [28:45] When we think about the nucleus of-of Great Replacement Theory, [28:49] it-it's this notion that anti-white racism is on the rise. [28:54] That-that white people apparently are the primary victims of racism. [28:59] And the way they make that case is they invert anti-racism, [29:04] which is to say they argue that those policies, [29:08] those laws that seek to create equal opportunity [29:10] or equity for everyone, are actually about snatching rights [29:15] and abilities and opportunities from white people. [29:17] Um, and that those policies are racist. [29:21] Yeah. [29:22] And-and that we need to do away with those policies [29:26] and practices. And they're inverting, [29:29] they've been inverting feminism for a long time, [29:31] claiming it's anti-male. They're doing the same thing. [29:34] Because they see rights as pie, right? [29:36] So if-if I get a larger slice of pie, you have less pie. [29:39] But that's not how rights in America work. [29:42] Well, and that's why the first link in the chain of ideas, [29:45] and-and, you know, the book is-is organized [29:48] into these ten links that undergird Great Replacement Theory. [29:51] The first is zero-sum. [29:53] So the idea that as Black people gain, [29:55] apparently white people lose, when in actuality, [29:58] typically Black people have gained as a result of these civil [30:02] and voting and equitable policies, [30:04] and the majority of white people have actually gained too. [30:06] White women are the biggest beneficiaries [30:08] of affirmative action in this country. [30:10] Senator Cory Booker made-we had him on our show on-on Monday, [30:14] and I made the point, I said, [30:15] this is an assault on Black political power. [30:16] He said, look, they want us to talk about- [30:18] they want to make it Black and white. [30:19] He said, but this is an assault on democracy. [30:22] And I'm like, yes, I agree. [30:25] But they are using Black people to do it. [30:27] And he's like, yeah, but they want to divide us. [30:29] And he did. [30:31] He was making the point that they want to divide us. [30:33] I understand the point that he was making. [30:34] But that Black people, when Black people have fought [30:37] for rights in this country, those rights have always, [30:40] that fight has always benefited everyone else. [30:42] And I'm like, yes, but is that the argument we should be making? [30:46] Or should, like, I feel like it's important to point out [30:48] that this is an assault on Black people. [30:49] So to me, it feels like this is a politician finding a palatable way [30:54] to talk about a concept that is hard for people to talk about. [30:57] Is it hard? I don't feel like it's hard. [30:59] It's hard. Is it hard? [31:01] For certain people to talk about. [31:02] Because you have to accept that you are someone [31:07] who holds these ideas. [31:08] How to be anti-racist is all about that, right? [31:10] Like, that you are someone who, even if you are not going out [31:13] and, like, making laws and, you know, pouring hot coffee [31:16] on Black people that's trying to eat, you know, eggs [31:18] at the damn counter, right? [31:20] If you're not doing that, you're doing other things. [31:22] You hold these things. [31:23] And I think, frankly, it is for politicians [31:25] who have to get votes from some of these folks, right? [31:28] Statewide or people who might be running for president [31:30] one day, again, like, they have to zoom out. [31:35] Because having a specific conversation [31:37] about what's happening to Black people [31:39] is still politically dangerous in this country. [31:43] As a former strategist, I, as a recovering strategist, [31:46] a former strategist, clearly, I might, after this cycle, [31:49] I'm gonna never be a strategist again. [31:50] I'm just only gonna be a host. [31:51] You'd be fired at this point. [31:52] I would be fired, because I'd be in there like, [31:53] no, tell them Black people are under assault. [31:56] I just feel like, yes, I understand that. [31:58] But these, this is not even how it was two years ago. [32:02] Right. [32:03] We are not in a moment where we were even in five years ago. [32:05] We are at the brink, and maybe I'm just too in it, okay? [32:09] My therapist tells me I need to zoom out sometimes [32:11] to turn the TV off, and I need to find some hobbies. [32:14] That's why I'm doing phone cases and whimsical stuff [32:16] and everything, doing my nails and everything right now, [32:18] doctor. [32:19] But I just feel like this moment is very different. [32:21] So we have to name the thing. [32:23] They are literally trying to take us back to 1878. [32:27] I agree. [32:28] We need to name the thing. [32:29] And part of the challenge, even to your point, [32:33] that I think politicians face, and even we face [32:37] in talking about this, is many white Americans, [32:40] particularly low- and middle-income white Americans, [32:42] don't know their own history, which is to say, [32:44] they don't know that so much of what they actually have now [32:48] is the result of black struggle. [32:50] And they don't know- [32:51] Give them an example. [32:51] Give an example. [32:52] Public schools in the South was largely a creation [32:56] of black politicians. [32:58] So at the very moment where you had these neo-Confederates [33:01] claiming that black politicians were in there [33:04] and destroying white lives, those very politicians [33:07] were bringing free public schools to the vast majority [33:11] of black and white people in the South [33:13] who didn't have it during the enslaving era. [33:15] Or even something like the abolition of indentured servitude. [33:20] And on and on. [33:22] And so I think that's part of the challenge. [33:23] Like, we don't teach history. [33:25] We don't teach black history. [33:26] Working class white people don't learn their history. [33:29] So then when a white person hears us talking about [33:32] the erosion of black rights, they don't realize [33:35] that that's ultimately going to come for them. [33:36] I want to look at your dedication in the book, [33:39] because this struck me. [33:40] You dedicate the book to humanity, to what links us. [33:43] After everything you've researched, [33:46] the books you've written, after the conversations you've had, [33:48] after all that you know and that you focus on [33:53] and that, like, is bouncing around in there, [33:55] do you still believe that our humanity is what links us? [34:00] Or do you believe that that should be what links us? [34:03] I believe it's what should. [34:05] And what I mean by should is I think [34:07] we should commonly recognize what I call in chain of ideas, [34:12] the chain of humanity. [34:13] And so I try to, even as most of the book chronicles [34:18] how great replacement theory causes us to believe [34:20] that racialized and gendered and sexual and religious groups [34:26] are fundamentally different, are fundamentally at political odds. [34:30] That as we're gaining, they're losing. [34:32] As we're becoming more powerful, [34:33] they're becoming less powerful, [34:36] um, and that we should be at political or cultural war, [34:39] the construct of the chain of humanity [34:42] allows us to see that even in our differences, [34:45] we're similar. [34:46] So you may dance differently than I do, [34:49] but we're supposed to dance it. [34:50] Yeah, I'm dancing. [34:51] No, I mean... [34:53] But it's a good example. You're right. [34:55] You may dance differently, but you still move. [34:58] You know what I mean? [34:59] Yeah. [35:00] Y'all may sing a little bit. [35:01] You may be off key, but there's a song in your heart. [35:03] Why are you looking at me when you say off key? [35:05] Because you cannot sing. [35:06] She's a bullet. [35:07] To be clear. [35:08] She's a bullet. [35:09] And as you become more powerful, [35:12] I become more powerful. [35:13] Yes. [35:14] Right? And so then we can build political solidarity [35:17] based on that and have the capacity to fight the oligarchs. [35:20] Okay, here's the thing. [35:21] Stay focused on the oligarchs, exactly. [35:22] The oligarchs. That's my point. [35:23] Because as you become more powerful, [35:25] I become more powerful. [35:26] As the oligarchs become more powerful, [35:28] and we're using the term oligarchs, [35:31] it's just the richest people in this country. [35:32] The chasm between the richest people in this country [35:34] and the poorest people in this country [35:35] is the largest it has ever been. [35:36] We talk about it on this show a lot. [35:38] Like, I talk about the good billionaires [35:39] and bad billionaires and how, in my estimation... [35:42] I think many of them are in the same bucket. [35:43] Yes. Eugene says they're all in the same bucket, I think. [35:45] Not all of them, the vast majority. [35:47] And there are a lot of people, frankly, [35:48] out there in this country that agree with you. [35:49] It's like, oh, you know, the people out there [35:51] that say there should be no billionaires. [35:52] And I'm like, well, give me an opportunity. [35:54] I think I'd be a good billionaire. [35:55] But would I? [35:57] Is there such a thing as a good billionaire? [35:59] Well, let me say this. [36:00] I am a professor at an HVCU at Howard. [36:04] And there is a billionaire who've been giving [36:07] billions of dollars to HVCUs. [36:10] But that billionaire is few and far between. [36:15] So, I mean, as a scholar, I try not to say something absolute, [36:18] like, it's impossible, never, but, I mean, it's highly unlikely. [36:24] And what we see billionaires doing right now, [36:26] what we see oligarchs doing right now, [36:29] is using some of the most dangerous theories known to humanity [36:36] to ensure that they can continue to hoard wealth and power, [36:40] which is then leading to mass shootings, [36:43] genocides, famines, all over the world. [36:46] You are on a college campus on a regular basis talking to, [36:50] I mean, I think, the next Ibram X. Kendi, right? [36:53] Like, you are teaching the folks who will be the thought leaders [36:57] and, frankly, I think the politicians and the business folks [37:00] of the next generation. [37:01] What are they saying and what do you say to them about this moment? [37:06] I tell them the truth, unvarnished, direct. [37:10] And what's interesting about young people is they have a, [37:16] they typically are more open-minded to that, right? [37:20] Even if it challenges the way they see the world [37:23] or the way they see themselves, they have this capacity [37:26] to ingest and transform. [37:28] And I think that's just the beauty of being young and open-minded. [37:33] And I think those of us who are older, we need to figure out a way [37:37] to keep our minds open, keep our belief that we can radically [37:41] transform the world because young people still have that belief. [37:43] Mm. [37:45] So the children are our future. [37:46] That's what Whitney said. [37:47] That's what Whitney said. [37:49] Well, I think they will say to us, well, don't depend on us. [37:52] Y'all need to change some stuff first. [37:53] Right. Why wait? Why wait? [37:55] Why wait? Why wait? Do it now. [37:56] Fix it now, damn it. [37:57] Oh, my goodness. Dr. Kennedy, thank you so much. [37:59] This is like... [38:00] Of course. This was great. [38:01] If I had edges, they'd be snatched, child. [38:03] I'm stressed. My edges are snatched. [38:05] Very stressed out. [38:05] Very stressed out, but we appreciate you. [38:07] Well, well, well. [38:08] Dr. Kennedy, Dr. Ibram X. Kennedy, he was amazing. [38:13] His book is so good. You know what? [38:15] For the people that might Google the reviews, [38:17] somebody gonna say to me the other day, [38:18] I don't think people like this book. [38:19] And I was just like, well, I don't think people read the book. [38:21] I think certain people don't like it. [38:22] Well, because the truth, the truth, [38:25] sometimes the truth don't like who tell it. [38:27] Truth hurts, honey. [38:28] Come on now. Hit dogs will holler. [38:29] Okay, loudly. [38:30] Very loudly. Every time. [38:33] It really did knock me back on my heels [38:35] when you said that the people are... [38:36] that the way in which they're chained [38:38] is not actual chained, but they are mentally chained. [38:42] I was just like, this is profound. [38:43] The through line for me was empathy. [38:45] And that's where he started with, like, the first question, [38:47] was, like, talking about needing empathy. [38:50] And it is both incumbent and automatic that the, like I said, [38:55] the oppressed has to have empathy. [38:57] Because you have to try to figure out why someone would do something to you. [39:00] And it reminds me of, like, all the different quotes post-Civil War, [39:04] post-Civil Rights Movement, [39:07] where white people would say to black people, [39:09] if I was in your shoes, I would have been done on that turn, [39:12] or I would have, you know, I would have never sat on the back of the bus. [39:15] Or they think they would do it. They don't know. [39:17] They're talking, you know how Jay-Z got a line, [39:19] everybody trying to tell you how to do it, but they never did it. [39:21] Exactly. [39:22] It's like, everyone has commentary about something that they've seen, [39:27] that they've heard about, that they've read. [39:28] And they can always talk about what they might do, but... [39:31] I would never let so-and-so... [39:32] Exactly. But are you in it? [39:34] And to your point, you know, in the last... [39:37] One of the last interviews that Dr. King ever gave [39:40] was on an NBC interview. [39:41] Yeah, yeah. [39:42] And he was basically saying that what he realized post... [39:47] Again, post-Voting Rights Act of 1965, okay? [39:50] Because post-1965 was a different fight. [39:51] We were talking about economic inequality. [39:53] We was trying to... We was talking about some different stuff. [39:55] We was talking about fair housing, okay? [39:56] It was giving Rainbow Coalition, okay? [39:59] Sanitation workers in Memphis. [40:00] Y'all better check your history out now. [40:01] Look it up. [40:02] Look it up. [40:03] Dr. King said he realized that in the South, [40:06] that most white people were actually responding [40:09] to the brutality that they saw, [40:10] and not necessarily the actual plight, [40:13] and the inequalities, and the injustice. [40:15] He realized that most people were responding [40:16] to what they were seeing on television, the imagery. [40:18] But the hearts and minds... [40:20] Were not changed. [40:21] Were not changed. [40:22] And that was something he was wrestling with. [40:23] We are in a new era, a new phase of the struggle, [40:27] where we have moved from a struggle for decency, [40:30] which characterized our struggle for 10 or 12, [40:33] years to a struggle for genuine equality. [40:37] And this is where we are getting the resistance, [40:40] because there was never any intention to go this far. [40:43] And when Dr. Kendi talks about the origins [40:46] of Great Replacement Theory, but also how it's showing up here now, [40:49] I do think, to your point about how people have to experience it, [40:52] what they are experiencing right now is that, [40:54] I don't like how I am being treated. [40:56] I don't like what the government is doing to me. [40:58] I don't like, like, insert... [40:59] I don't like the gas prices are high. [41:00] I don't like that, oh, my neighbor that I've known for a long time [41:02] got snatched up when they're not a criminal. [41:04] Hello? [41:05] You know what I'm saying? [41:06] But are the hearts and minds changing? [41:08] And maybe they're not. [41:09] But maybe it's okay that the hearts and minds aren't changing. [41:11] But I just, I'm skeptical. [41:13] It makes me think of this, I'm gonna mess up her name, [41:15] so I'm not gonna say it, it's this old white lady with glasses. [41:18] Years ago, remember, she used to go on talk shows [41:21] and talk about race, and one of the things she asked white people, [41:24] she was like, anybody in this room would you want to be black? [41:27] If you, as a white person, would be happy to receive the same treatment [41:31] that our Black citizens do in this society, please stand. [41:36] Nobody's standing here. [41:39] That says very plainly that you know what's happening, [41:42] you know you don't want it for you. [41:45] I want to know why you're so willing to accept it [41:47] or to allow it to happen for others. [41:50] And that is that aspect of it. [41:53] It's always been there. [41:54] And this, some of these thought processes have been a part of our culture for so long. [41:57] But they think that being they is in the people that believe this, [42:01] and I would argue it would be non-Black people in this country, [42:03] because I think that there are white people that think this way, [42:06] but I also think that there are non-white people that also would say, [42:09] I would never want to be black. [42:10] So it's not just white versus black. [42:12] I think that there's a rainbow coalition of people saying they don't want to be black. [42:15] Yes. Some Black people. [42:17] Come on, well, clock it. [42:18] I'm just saying, y'all know some of them. [42:19] That is a function of, that means that the mental chains have worked. [42:24] That the mind games have worked, [42:26] because the idea that like, oh, I wouldn't want to be black. [42:29] To be clear, some of y'all are worse off than us. [42:31] Right. [42:33] What you mean you wouldn't want to be black? [42:35] Like when I'm in a store and you follow me, baby, I'm shopping. [42:37] Baby, you need to be looking at Joe. [42:39] Don't worry about Keisha. [42:41] You need to be looking at Joe. Joe was a thief. [42:43] Okay, Joe stole all your money. [42:44] Joe stole your money. [42:45] Elon took your money. [42:46] But that is, I just think that that is why we have to have such a frank conversation [42:52] and like interrogate the thought and name the thing. [42:55] And I do think that people need the space to be able to raise these kind of things. [43:01] Yeah, yeah. [43:01] And not feel as though that, you know, I think we both grew up in various spaces and places [43:07] where sometimes we were the only black kid and sometimes we were, well, actually, a lot of times I was the only black kid. [43:13] And I think that that was also true for you. [43:14] And there are a lot of people that we grew up with that might be on the other side of this conversation. [43:22] And I think that the ability to have that conversation, to get to a place of empathy, [43:26] is actually very important in this day and age. [43:28] Because we're not going to get past this moment if we are not able to find empathy. [43:32] We're not going to work through it if we can't find empathy and get on a similar page. [43:35] None of us is free unless all of us is free, as they say. [43:38] Child, right now we all in mental change. [43:39] Okay, Locke and some others. Okay, great episode. Oh, my God. [43:44] Thank you so much. Rate us. Okay, rate us. [43:46] Rate us, review us. [43:47] Review us. Nice things. [43:48] Don't leave bad things in the comments, okay? [43:50] No, we don't want... Because she reads them. [43:52] And then y'all make her do a nails mower. She does more of them. [43:54] Honestly, and you know what? It's just driving my therapy bill up. [43:57] Her whimsy is making these phone cases. It's not good.