[FULL] Knocking Neighbor Shooting Trial: Sentencing of Susan Lorincz

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: You guys ready to go? Yes, sir. Yes, Your Honor. [00:00:10] Speaker 2: State's ready to proceed. [00:00:15] Speaker 1: All right, we're here on the State of Florida versus Susan Lawrence, case number 23, CF, 22, 36. Give me one second to get this going. I see Ms. Lawrence is here. Is there any reason not to proceed sentencing at this time? [00:00:46] Speaker 3: No, sir. [00:00:48] Speaker 1: Anything from the State? No, Your Honor. All right. [00:00:51] Speaker 2: The State of Florida have any person they want to call for sentencing? Yes, Your Honor. The State would call Ms. Pamela Dias. She has a statement prepared to read to the court. [00:00:59] Speaker 1: Yes, sir. [00:01:00] Pamela Dias: My name is Pamela Dias. I am the mother of Ajica Owens, who was shot and killed by Susan Lawrence. I stand before you with the burden of articulating and conveying the depth of our grief and the trauma that Susan Lawrence inflicted on our lives and to also share the devastating impact that Susan caused when she fatally shot my daughter, Ajica Owens, on June 2nd of 2023. It is virtually impossible to convey all of the ways Susan has devastated her lives, but I'm going to try and convey some of the most impactful ways. My baby girl, my baby girl, Ajica Owens, whom I gave life to, is gone forever. Susan Lawrence took her life at the age of 35 years old. I stand before you not only mourning the loss of my daughter, but also the loss of our hopes, dreams, and the future that we often spoke of. Our plans and promises to one another as mother and daughter will never come to light. They all died the night Susan Lawrence killed my daughter. [00:03:24] Speaker 5: There's no greater pain than to bury your child. [00:03:30] Pamela Dias: Mere words can never fully explain this type of pain. No one knows the heartache that I endure unless they too have lost a child in this manner. The gnawing at my heart and the unending pain keeps me up every night. I lay in bed wondering, what was those last moments? What were the last moments? What were those last moments like for Ajica when she realized she had been shot in the chest by Susan? I think about what she was thinking when she was lying face down on the ground fighting for her life, fighting to stay alive for her four children. Then I think about the sheer terror and the distress that my grandchildren went through, witnessing their mom dying at the hands of Susan. I think about the pain she must have felt as she took her life, her last breath. This haunts me each and every night. I'm still trying to grasp and cope with the fact that my daughter, my baby girl, is lying six feet underground, breathless, lifeless, and will never be with us again. I stand before you a mere shell of the person that I once was. I am overwhelmingly consumed with grief. It has taken over my life. Every hour of the day, I fight back the tears, fight the urge to scream, but I cry silent tears. I've lost that natural smile, and happiness, and zest for life that I once had. My relationships are not what they used to be with my friends and family. I feel isolated and suffering. New relationships formed will never know the real Pam. They've met the Pam in death, not Pam in life. That Pam is gone forever. Every part of my life has been impacted. Every part of my life has been impacted. When Susan killed Ashika, she took away my freedom, the plans that I had for my own personal life. Because Ashika is no longer here, I became the sole caretaker of four young children. My grandchildren whom I loved dearly. I relocated from my home from another state. I was forced to resign from a career that I loved as a flight attendant. Where I was traveling the world, happy. I lost time from work. And I still struggle to maintain the ability, the mental capacity, to concentrate and maintain employment. My freedom and liberty to do many of the things that most people take for granted have been stripped away. The simple things that most people take for granted no longer exist for me. I left behind my social life, my friends, because my grandchildren needed me. They had no one, because Susan took away, Susan killed the most important person, their rock, their support, their constant. She took that from them. I don't get the luxury of instinctively waking up and rolling out of bed. I have to make a deliberate attempt to get out of bed, to be present, choosing life outside of my four walls in order to be present for my grandchildren and not to succumb to the pain and the grief and the sadness that I carry daily. As you can imagine, this is an enormously difficult time for our family. I have faced with the challenge of meeting the needs of the children alongside my own emotional and everyday needs. I worry for them. I worry for them. I worry for the future of my grandchildren. I wasn't financially prepared to raise children at this stage in my life. Susan took away their vibrant, young mother. Now they have their grandmother raising them. I stress over what life will be like for them if something were to happen to me. Who's going to care for them? Who will support them? Will they become a burden of the state? Susan took emotional and financial stability from the children. I was a lifeline for our family. I offer support. It's now me alone who has to shoulder the responsibility of their well-being. There is not a day, not an hour, that I do not mourn for my daughter, but I also mourn for my grandchildren. I weep for them. Every tear from my eyes is for Titus, Africa, Israel, and Isaac. [00:11:14] Speaker 5: I see the pain in their eyes, even when they seem like they're happy. I recognize it because I carry that same pain. [00:11:33] Pamela Dias: Our true essence and being of who we once were is gone forever. But we put on a brave face to face the world, but on the inside, we're hurting with a pain that will never, never, go away. There is a hole in our heart that will never mend. I know this because these are the conversations. These are the talks that we have on a regular basis. No one can fully understand the turmoil, the gravity of Susan killing my daughter. Susan killing Isaac, Israel, Africa, and Titus's mother. Susan destroyed our family. She killed our family. The children are left with a lifetime of scars. Not five years, not 10 years, not 20 years, not 30 years. A lifetime of scars and trauma. It's unfair and it's not right. It's not fair and it's not right that these four babies who are still in the early years, years of their development have to endure such complex and massive trauma witnessing their mother shot and killed by Susan. That frenzy of having to go from door to door to seek help that ultimately would not have saved their mother. Then, burying their mother at the ages of three, seven, nine, and twelve. Buried their mother because Susan Lawrence shot and killed their mother through a locked metal door. This type of trauma that they've endured so early on in life will ultimately alter the course of their future development. And it already has everyday activities, going out to eat, going to the movies, trips to the grocery store. They all can be triggering. Whenever they see an older white woman that remotely resembles Susan. The fear, the uneasiness, the fear, the uneasiness, it immediately takes over. They become afraid and they feel unsafe. Young children should not have to live like this. But Susan single-handedly instilled this fear And distrust of people who don't resemble them. This is the trauma that Susan inflicted on their lives. Isaac, Israel, Africa, Titus, they only have three to 12 years of memories with their mother. Titus, the baby, his memory will ultimately fade. The reality is that he will more than likely never remember his mother. His recollection of his mom Will never be of his own. It's all going to be of the stories and the memories that we share with him. He'll never remember what it was like for her to seem to him at night. For her to rub his back to sleep. It breaks my heart when I hear this sweet boy Saying "I want mommy, I miss mommy knowing she's never coming back. I miss her too. I want her back too." Isaac, Israel, and Africa. Her friends. [00:18:52] Speaker ?: Her friends. [00:18:52] Pamela Dias: Her loved ones want her back. She's not coming back. Susan took our ability to create memories with Ajaka when she shot and killed her. The football mom. The cheerleading mom. Mom. The wiping of the tears mom. The kissing and hugging mom. That made her kids feel better. It's gone forever. There'll be no more hugs. There'll be no more kisses. There'll be no more talks. No one can fill that role for the children. Not even me as their loving grandmother. These babies now have to watch other kids growing up with their mothers. See them holding their hands. See them cheering them on at school events. All the while knowing that their mother is never coming back. Every second Sunday. In May. Mother's Day. Is now a reminder of what they've lost. Of what they no longer have. A mother. It's a day of mourning. Birthdays and holidays. Are no longer celebratory. As they once were. Ajaka will forever be missing. As part of the celebration. She won't be present for the baptisms. The prom. Graduations. Their first love. Their first. The breakups. [00:21:18] Speaker ?: The breakups. [00:21:18] Pamela Dias: Engagements. Marriages. Children. All the important pivotals. All the important moments. That a parent and a child share together. Our family dynamics. Our family dynamics have changed. Our family relationships have been affected. Because we now have to deal with the turmoil and the confusion. Of all of these emotions. My grandchildren lost. A fun loving grandmother in me. I can't be that to them anymore. Because I have to feel the role of a parent. I have assumed the parental role. I do this. I do this. While struggling with my own grief. My own pain. And my own suffering. Future generations. Will be impacted. Four young children. Are now growing up. Without the nurturing. And the love. Of their mother. Their children. Will be raised. By parents. Who sustained trauma. At a very. Early age. Their children's children. Will never know. Ashika. As a grandmother. Ashika was a beloved. Daughter. Sister. Aunt. And friend to many. The loss of her life. Has impacted the nation. People near and far. Are hurting. Alongside the family. But most of all. Ashika was a loving. And devoted mother. To her four. Beautiful. Innocent. Children. She lived. And breathed. Being a mom. Susan took that breath. So we all know. Being a mother. Doesn't end at. Age 18. Or 21. Children need. Their mother. Well into. Adulthood. But Susan's. Reckless act. Of manslaughter. Rendered. My four. Grandchildren. Motherless. God. [00:24:35] Speaker ?: I stand before you. [00:24:35] Pamela Dias: Not as a brave. Africa, Israel, Isaac have to live their remaining lives as a motherless child. A motherless child. I stand before you not as a brave and courageous mother, not as a strong grandmother, I stand before you as a broken hearted mother. A mother in despair who lost her daughter. I stand before you as an advocate for Isaac, Israel, Africa, and Titus. I stand before you for our future generations to come. Our pain and suffering didn't end when we buried Ashika. Our pain and suffering didn't end when Susan was found guilty of manslaughter. Our pain and suffering won't end with today's sentencing. Our pain and suffering will last a lifetime. Ashika died protecting her children from Susan Lawrence. Susan antagonized the children for years. She belittled for years. She belittled them. She berated them. Her heinous act showed she doesn't have respect for the law. She doesn't have respect for law enforcement. Within two minutes of law enforcement on the way, Susan knew they were en route. Susan made the hateful act. She chose the hateful act. Susan made the hateful act of shooting Ashika through, who was unarmed, through a locked metal door. Susan made the hateful act of shooting Ashika through, who was unarmed, through a locked metal door. Susan made the hateful act of shooting Ashika through, who was unarmed, through a locked metal door. Susan made the hateful act of shooting Ashika through, who was unarmed, through a locked door. Susan was safe and secure in her home, with law enforcement en route. Susan made the hateful act of shooting Ashika. She was not in danger, but Susan chose to shoot and kill. Susan made the hateful act of shooting. She was unarmed. She was unarmed. She was unarmed. She was unarmed. loved ones, Ms. Ashika. We loved her and she loved us. We will carry this feeling of pain and loss for the remainder of our lives. Susan killed Ashika. Ashika is never coming back. This was the ultimate tragedy. And there's nothing more devastating than the loss of Ashika that should have never, ever happened. Susan hasn't shown remorse for shooting Ashika. She has not shown remorse for killing Ashika. She has not shown remorse for leaving four children motherless. From the onset of the proceedings, Susan was bold and brazen. When the guilty verdict was read, Susan shrugged her shoulders. Has to say, oh well. If she showed a modicum of remorse, it was not for Ashika. It was not for my four grandchildren. It was for her own selfish reasons. So, Susan Louise Lorenz was unanimously found guilty of manslaughter by use of a firearm by a jury of her peers for shooting Ashika. [00:30:05] Speaker ?: So, Susan Louise Lorenz. [00:30:06] Pamela Dias: Through a locked metal door. For the pain, the suffering, the life-altering consequences of Susan's heinous actions that have been inflicted on our lives. I am begging you. I am pleading that you hold Susan fully accountable for her actions. Four motherless children's lives. Four motherless children's future depend on it. Susan doesn't deserve any leniency. There is no getting back of life. Someone is dead. A mother, a daughter, is dead. Forever. And that is the reality that we must live with. Forever. Thank you. [00:31:36] Speaker 1: Thank you very much, ma'am. Thank you, ma'am. [00:32:01] Speaker 2: We have nothing further. [00:32:02] Speaker 3: Okay. Thank you, sir. Judge, may I approach the clerk? [00:32:05] Speaker ?: Sure. [00:32:07] Speaker 3: Mr. Sniffler, I can pre-mark for identification purposes only in Defense A. The defense will enter which would mark as Defense A of Defense 1 and has a business record certification attached to it. These are only records from ABT of Central Florida related to Susan Lawrence and Mental Health Diagnosis PTSD. I think this will become relevant when Dr. Caskey will testifies. Okay. [00:32:45] Speaker 6: Any objection to committee evidence? Yeah, Your Honor. Committee evidence that with evidence is defense number one. Thank you, Judge. [00:32:53] Speaker 7: Your Honor, we have five witnesses to present for your consideration. Yes, Your Honor. They are all present. [00:33:02] Speaker ?: Yes, sir. [00:33:02] Speaker 7: They are all present. We will start off with Crystal Jewel Maxow. I'm sorry, Maxow. I think so. [00:33:08] Speaker 1: Thank you. [00:33:38] Speaker 8: Yes, sir. Thank you. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Please tell us your full name. Crystal Jewell Maxu. And will you please tell us what you do for a living? I own a cleaning company. And are you local to the area? Yes, I am. How do you know Susan Lawrence? [00:34:06] Speaker 9: I have known her probably since 2012. I met her at a church called Ocala Farm Ministries. [00:34:14] Speaker 7: Is Susan a devout Christian? Yeah. Was Susan always praying for you and your family and other people? Yes. Did there come a time where your niece was having a very difficult time in her life? Yes. And did Susan help in that process? [00:34:30] Speaker 9: Yes. She actually mentored her. [00:34:32] Speaker 7: How did Susan mentor your niece? [00:34:34] Speaker 9: She would call her. She was in and out of some issues with mental health. And she would go and check on her and bake her food and call her and pray with her. [00:34:47] Speaker 7: How would you describe Susan in general? [00:34:51] Speaker 9: Very kind and generous. Pretty consistent. [00:34:57] Speaker 7: Would you describe her as a good friend? [00:34:59] Speaker 9: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. [00:35:01] Speaker 7: Did Susan speak with you about her difficult childhood? [00:35:06] Speaker 9: Briefly. I know that she had some very specific trauma concerning her childhood with her father. [00:35:14] Speaker 7: Now, she never got into details with you? No. No, sir. Yes, I'm sorry. [00:35:19] Speaker 9: No, I just said no, sir. [00:35:20] Speaker 7: Now, did you and her, you and Susan, together pray for Susan and what she went through in her childhood? [00:35:28] Speaker 9: Yes, we have prayed a few times. [00:35:30] Speaker 7: And what did the prayers consist of? [00:35:33] Speaker 9: Just healing. [00:35:34] Speaker 7: Healing for Susan? Yes. And the residue of the trauma? Correct. Is Susan a good chef? [00:35:44] Speaker 9: Oh, my. Yes. Yes. Yes. Please tell us about that. Well, she's baked for us and cooked for us for many years, even at our wedding. My husband and I, she cooked for three days, three straight days for us. And we had about two, three hundred people there at the church. And she just would not stop cooking and baking. And she just continued, she continues to invite us over during the holidays and stuff. And she would cook just amazing things. [00:36:13] Speaker 7: Was Susan, in your interactions with her, always helping people? [00:36:17] Speaker 9: Yes. Yes. In what way? All the time. She was just giving to people, cooking for them, going to give food away. She would help her sister. She would help her nephew. She would always give me rides when I had no ride or no license, actually, in the beginning of our friendship to St. Augustine to see my mom, who was handicapped, and my children. [00:36:39] Speaker 7: Now, let's talk a little bit about Susan's sister. Susan has a sister? [00:36:43] Speaker 9: Yes. What is her name? Ellen. [00:36:45] Speaker 7: And how did Susan go about helping Ellen and her issues? [00:36:51] Speaker 9: Well, she took her in a few times that I know of, was always taking care of her, always taking care of her nephew. I was there when he was born at the hospital. And, yeah, basically, on multiple places that she lived, she would always bring Ellen with her. [00:37:11] Speaker 7: Now, Ellen has a son. I think you mentioned him. Mm-hmm. His name is Gabriel? [00:37:14] Speaker 9: Yes, sir. Okay. [00:37:17] Speaker 7: How was Susan as a aunt to Gabriel? [00:37:22] Speaker 9: Amazing. She would, I mean, even at holidays and stuff, she was always buying him stuff, taking care of him, always concerned about him, always. [00:37:32] Speaker 7: Now, you mentioned that your family or your mom lived in St. Augustine? [00:37:37] Speaker 9: Yes, sir. Okay. [00:37:38] Speaker 7: And was it, at that point, was it difficult for you to get to St. Augustine to see her? [00:37:43] Speaker 9: Yes. [00:37:43] Speaker 7: And how would Susan help in that process? [00:37:45] Speaker 9: She would offer me rides. She wouldn't even take money from me. She would help me. My mom and her actually became really good friends before my mom went home to the Lord and just was there for me. Anytime she'd always ask me if I need rides, take me to the store, would have never asked me for money or anything. [00:38:04] Speaker 7: Is it safe to say that Susan has been a good friend to you? [00:38:07] Speaker 9: Yes, yes. [00:38:09] Speaker 7: When you first met Susan, were you starting a new life here in Ocala? [00:38:12] Speaker 9: Yes. [00:38:13] Speaker 7: And how were you starting a new life? [00:38:14] Speaker 9: I moved here from a rehabilitation home and decided to make a decision to leave everything behind in St. Augustine and start a new life. And I started working at the Melting Pot and went over to Ocala Farm Ministries. They actually picked me up every single week for 10 months, and that's where I met her. And then she befriended me, and she was on a farm with some horses that she had and her and her sister. And they never expected anything from me. They just always wanted to help me. [00:38:46] Speaker 7: In this process of you rebuilding your life and starting a new life here in Ocala, did Susan help in that process? [00:38:53] Speaker 9: Yes. [00:38:54] Speaker 7: In what way? [00:38:55] Speaker 9: Just being a friend, being there, helping with a new type of friendship. And, well, like I said, she would help me get on my feet. She gave me rides. Just multiple different things that she would do to support. [00:39:14] Speaker 7: From your interactions with Susan, is she a violent person? [00:39:18] Speaker 9: No. [00:39:19] Speaker 7: An aggressive person? [00:39:20] Speaker 9: No, sir. [00:39:21] Speaker 7: From your interactions with Susan and the time that you have known her, which has been approximately 12, 13 years at this point? Yeah. [00:39:28] Speaker 9: Yes, sir. [00:39:28] Speaker 7: Is she a hard worker? [00:39:30] Speaker 9: Oh, yes. [00:39:31] Speaker 7: In what way? [00:39:32] Speaker 9: She's always working. We barely, actually, towards the last few years, we didn't get a lot of time to spend together. Holidays, she would always usually be cooking. But she was working at different places, and she was working like 50, 60 hours a week. And then she had some licensing she got from home and was working at home, but a lot of working. [00:39:53] Speaker 7: Did she financially maintain herself and pay her bills? Yes. Have you had an opportunity to see Susan interact with people? Yes. How did she interact with people? [00:40:06] Speaker 9: Normal. Nothing abnormal. She was very, actually, with a church event she would invite me to because she sang. And she was really close to the church and the events, and she would always invite us to do, like, the monthly church, I guess, maybe eating and where they have fellowship. And we went down there. And, yeah, she was just always friendly. [00:40:31] Speaker 7: Does Susan have a big heart? [00:40:32] Speaker 9: Yes. [00:40:36] Speaker 7: You mentioned her singing at church. Did she sing at the choir at church? [00:40:40] Speaker 9: Yes. [00:40:41] Speaker 7: Does she have a talent for singing? Yes. What kind of voice does she have? [00:40:45] Speaker 9: I think it's called soprano. I'm not sure. Opera. It's like an opera. She sounds like an opera singer. [00:40:52] Speaker 7: And would she always sing at church and volunteer her time in that way? Did there come a time where Susan confided in you that she was having problems at home? [00:41:05] Speaker 9: Yes. A few times she would ask me to pray for her for the next door people in the neighborhood. [00:41:13] Speaker 7: But she never gave you specifics? [00:41:14] Speaker 9: Not exact specifics, no. [00:41:17] Speaker 7: Did you ever go to her home? [00:41:18] Speaker 9: Yes. [00:41:20] Speaker 7: Did you hear, was there a lot going on in the neighborhood? Mm-hmm. [00:41:23] Speaker 9: It was loud. [00:41:25] Speaker 7: Was Susan wanting to discuss her feelings with you? [00:41:29] Speaker 9: Here and there. She was mainly getting to where she had mentioned the neighborhood like she was thinking about moving. [00:41:41] Speaker 7: Have you ever been in a situation with Susan where she has felt like she was in danger? [00:41:47] Speaker 9: No. [00:41:49] Speaker 7: Were you shocked when you heard that Susan was involved in this incident? [00:41:52] Speaker 9: Very. [00:41:53] Speaker 7: And why is that? [00:41:55] Speaker 9: Well, I had to actually look on the internet to find out. And just that it's almost completely opposite of the person that I know, to be honest with you. [00:42:06] Speaker 7: How did Susan's friendship help you become a better person? [00:42:12] Speaker 9: My past has led me to where I'm at today. And she was one of the very first people that befriended me. I didn't even know what a friend was. I didn't know how to be a good friend in my past. And it was always either take, take, give and take. And she was very much of a giver. And during this friendship, I learned from her on how to really treat people. And I believe, honestly, that God brought her into my life to help me to be a better person and a better friend. And today I know how to be a friend. And so it was very, for me, I thought about that for a long time. And she's been a consistent friend of me. There's, who would I be if I didn't come up here and say this today, the truth? [00:42:55] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:42:56] Speaker 6: Thank you. Your Honor, I have no further questions. Anything from State? No, Your Honor. Thank you very much, ma'am. [00:43:04] Speaker 7: Next witness, Your Honor, is Michael Maxo. Maxo. [00:43:31] Speaker 8: I do. [00:43:40] Speaker 7: May I please report, Your Honor? [00:43:42] Speaker 1: Yes, sir. [00:43:44] Speaker 10: Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Please tell us your full name. Michael Antoine Maxo. And what do you do for a living? I do property removal. [00:43:54] Speaker 7: And do you live in the area, in the Ocala area? Yes. Now, Crystal, is that your wife? Yes. And how long have you all been married? [00:44:02] Speaker 10: Eight years. How long have you... November 10th was our anniversary. Yes, sir. How long have you known Susan? [00:44:11] Speaker 7: About eight years. Did, was it Crystal that introduced you to Susan? Yes. And did you all at one point go to the same church together? [00:44:20] Speaker 10: Yes. [00:44:21] Speaker 7: Which one is that? [00:44:23] Speaker 10: Open Door Community Church in Summerfield. Okay. How would you describe Susan? Um, she just was pleasant and kind person. Kind in what way? Um, just very outgoing and generous. Um, she liked to cook and, you know, um, just pleasant. Just pleasant person. [00:44:51] Speaker 7: Is she a good chef? [00:44:52] Speaker 10: Yes. Has she been a good friend to you and to your wife, Crystal? Yes. We've done, um, you know, a few holidays together and, uh, you know, like Thanksgiving and whatnot. And... Was Susan always helping people? Yes. In what way? Um, I mean, she just, uh, she worked for, uh, like as a chef, as, you know, for a nursing home and stuff like that. Um, she used to always give my wife rides when she needed her before I was in the picture. Um, she would come and pick her up and take her to church and, you know, things like that. Did she actually, uh, cook for your wedding for days and days? [00:45:43] Speaker 7: Yes. Is she, is, um, she a caretaker to her sister, Ellen? [00:45:50] Speaker 10: As far as I know, I mean, she took care of Ellen's, uh, you know, her, her nephew for the most part. [00:45:59] Speaker 7: Her nephew, Gabriel? [00:46:00] Speaker 10: Yes. Ellen's son? [00:46:02] Speaker 7: Ellen's son, yes. Have you ever seen Susan be violent or aggressive? No, sir. Is Susan a hard worker? [00:46:10] Speaker 10: Yes. In what way? I mean, she, when she was chefing, she would work, like, uh, 60 hours a week. Did she financially maintain herself and pay her own bills? Yes, she did. [00:46:33] Speaker 7: Does Susan sing at the church that you all attended? [00:46:35] Speaker 10: Yes. What kind of voice does Susan have? She has an opera voice. [00:46:46] Speaker 7: Have you ever been in a situation with Susan where she felt like she was in danger? Not that I can recall. Were you shocked when you heard about the incident that Susan was involved in? Yes. And why were you shocked? [00:47:01] Speaker 10: Just out of, uh, just out of her character. In what way? Just, uh, I guess you wouldn't expect someone that you know and have been close to to, to do something like that. Okay, I have no further questions, Your Honor. [00:47:22] Speaker 1: Do you have any questions? [00:47:24] Speaker 7: No, Your Honor. [00:47:24] Speaker 1: Thank you very much, sir. [00:47:27] Speaker 7: Next is Shannon Harris, Your Honor. [00:47:57] Speaker 8: Do you swear to the testimony you're about to be able to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth will be God? I do. [00:48:08] Speaker 7: Have a seat, please. Thank you. Thank you. Good afternoon. [00:48:13] Speaker ?: Hi. [00:48:14] Speaker 7: Please tell us your full name. [00:48:15] Speaker 11: Shannon Lynn Harris. [00:48:17] Speaker 7: And what do you do for a living, Ms. Harris? [00:48:19] Speaker 11: I am a pastor. I have been for the last 10 years. [00:48:23] Speaker 7: A pastor where? [00:48:24] Speaker 11: I pastor Anthony United Methodist Church and also Shiloh United Methodist Church up in Micanopy. And how long have you known Susan Lawrence? I met Susan when I started at Anthony United Methodist Church in July of 2022. [00:48:41] Speaker 7: How would you describe Susan? [00:48:44] Speaker 11: Kind, loving, um, several years ago, uh, but that would have been 2023. Um, my husband was in the hospital in Tampa. My mother-in-law was in Advent Hospital. My sister-in-law was in Gainesville. My brother-in-law and I were trying to take care of everybody and all of the family except for me got COVID. Um, so things were difficult when we brought them home and Susan brought over a large thing of lasagna, some salads, she just, and she said, if you need anything, if you need to just talk, if you need to vent, I'm here. [00:49:23] Speaker 7: Was Susan a constant, um, uh, supporting force for you? During that difficult time. [00:49:30] Speaker 11: Absolutely. Yes. Um, it was a very difficult time. My husband's cancer had metastasized, um, and it's sometimes very difficult, uh, being the pastor. You don't necessarily get taken care of all the time, um, in the ways that Sue helped to take care of me. [00:49:52] Speaker 7: Besides providing food and things of substance for you all to eat and drink, did she provide emotional support for you, um, when your husband was dying? [00:50:03] Speaker 11: Yes. In what way? Yes. She, um, absolutely. She would let me know that she was praying for me on Sundays. She would make sure that I got an extra big hug. Um, she would ask how my week was, you know, she was always concerned with, was I doing okay? And reminding me that I needed to take care of me if I was going to take care of others as well. [00:50:30] Speaker 7: Did Susan make this very difficult time in your life just a little bit better? [00:50:35] Speaker 11: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Because she was such a calm presence. Have you seen her interact with her sister, Ellen? Yes. What kind of sister is she, Dale? Oh, she was fantastic. Um, Ellen faced a lot of health challenges and Susan was always there to help her, to encourage her, to lift her up in some pretty trying times. [00:51:00] Speaker 7: Does Ellen have a son? Yes. Does her son, does Ellen's son have some, some issues, if you will? [00:51:05] Speaker 11: Yes, yes, he does. [00:51:07] Speaker 7: And did, or did, did Susan help Ellen in taking care of her son, that being Ellen's son? [00:51:17] Speaker 11: Yes. In what way? Um, well, for actually the first couple of times that I met her son at church, uh, he was with his aunt and I. [00:51:27] Speaker 7: He was with Susan? [00:51:27] Speaker 11: Yes, yes. Um, and I didn't know whether that, I thought maybe it was either her child or a grandchild and, um, come to find out that it was, she was actually his aunt and he did so amazing with her, um, because he could be a challenge, um, particularly in service. Um, thankfully the parishioners were gracious, um, but he, he could be a little tough to wrangle in sometimes, I guess we could say. [00:51:58] Speaker 7: Do Susan and Gabriel have a close bond. Absolutely. [00:52:02] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:52:05] Speaker 7: Have you ever seen Susan have a conflict with anyone? [00:52:08] Speaker ?: No. [00:52:09] Speaker 7: Is Susan, is Susan violent at all? [00:52:11] Speaker 11: No. Um, not that I've seen. [00:52:14] Speaker 7: How was she in general from what you saw with children and adults? [00:52:18] Speaker 11: Oh, she was great. The girls at the church absolutely loved her. She would hang out with them. We have a fellowship time after service. Um, and Sue would frequently make goodies for that. And then she would talk to, uh, we have two young ladies, uh, that attend our church. And she was always very, very good with the girls interested in what they were doing in the girl scouts and just very good at communicating. [00:52:44] Speaker 7: Have you ever seen Susan be aggressive? No. Impolite? [00:52:48] Speaker 11: No. [00:52:50] Speaker 7: Would you describe Susan as reserved? Yes. In what way? [00:52:57] Speaker 11: She kind of kept to herself a lot of times. Um, and it took a little bit. There was, um, I don't know how to describe it. Maybe almost like a, a, a wall of sorts, I guess. Okay. Um, and once you broke through that and you gained her trust, then she would be more open. Um, but it, it took a little bit to get through that. [00:53:22] Speaker 7: Have you ever seen Susan be in a dangerous situation or a stressful situation? [00:53:26] Speaker 11: No. [00:53:29] Speaker 7: We've heard that Susan sins at church? [00:53:32] Speaker 11: Yes, beautifully. [00:53:34] Speaker 7: And did she volunteer a lot of her time in doing that? [00:53:37] Speaker 11: She did, um, not only with that, but with, uh, with our drive through dinner church, which is a, um, one Sunday, uh, Saturday night, a month. We serve dinner to the community. It's a free dinner. And Susan would frequently help out with making desserts for that. She would come to help us set up. Um, she would help to serve, um, she also made the treats for our fellowship time after church on Sundays. Um, so she was always serving in one way or another. If some of our elderly folks, um, were having issues trying to figure out what insurance to get, Sue, Sue would sit down with them and help them navigate that difficult process. [00:54:19] Speaker 7: Um, she was also, I'm sorry, um, Susan worked in that, in the insurance industry, right? Yes. So she would help out those individuals when they had questions about what I should get, what kind of coverage I should get, things of that nature. [00:54:31] Speaker 11: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. And, and I have a lot of, um, let's call them wise folks, um, in the congregation that I serve that really had a difficult time navigating that. And Susan helped them. She did. She, and she would offer rides if they needed rides. Uh, we have several widows, um, that if they needed rides to the doctor when they weren't feeling well. So, yeah, she was always involved in something at the church. [00:54:58] Speaker 7: Did, did Susan ever mention that she was having problems at home? Yes. And did she ask you to pray? Yes. In regard to her problems she was having at home? [00:55:10] Speaker 11: She did, yes. And, in particular, trying to find, um, a, a place to move. Okay. [00:55:17] Speaker 7: Anything else that you'd like to share with us regarding Susan? [00:55:20] Speaker 11: Um, she just, how do I say this? Um, I'm sorry, I'm getting emotional. Um, I truly am shocked by what happened. Um, it sent shockwaves through the entire church because this is just not, she was there, I'm not sure exactly how many years. [00:55:52] Speaker 7: She was there before your time. [00:55:53] Speaker 11: She was there, yes, well before my time. And this is just not the person that we know. Um, that's all I can say. [00:56:04] Speaker 7: And you actually, um, uh, had counselors come to the church and speak to other individuals? [00:56:11] Speaker 11: Yes, this was absolutely devastating. Um, so we did bring a professional in to, to help people, um, to kind of process as best as we could. [00:56:25] Speaker 7: Okay, Your Honor, I don't have any further questions. [00:56:27] Speaker 6: Do you have any questions? [00:56:29] Speaker ?: No, Your Honor. [00:56:30] Speaker 6: Thank you very much, ma'am. Thank you, ma'am. [00:56:32] Speaker ?: Thank you, Judge. [00:56:35] Speaker 7: Your Honor, Ellen Lawrence. Thank you, Judge. [00:57:06] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:57:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, right here, ma'am. Are you able to? [00:57:44] Speaker 8: Do you swear or affirm? [00:57:45] Speaker 1: Hold on one second. You can sit down and do it. [00:57:48] Speaker 12: Okay. [00:57:49] Speaker 1: You can sit down and be sworn in. [00:57:51] Speaker 12: My balance is a little off. [00:57:53] Speaker 1: That's fine. Don't worry about it. That's for no requirement to stand. [00:57:58] Speaker 8: Do you swear or affirm that the testimony about to get will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, to help you guys? Amen. Yep. [00:58:06] Speaker 7: Good afternoon. [00:58:09] Speaker 12: Hello. Good afternoon. [00:58:11] Speaker 7: Please tell us your full name. [00:58:12] Speaker 12: Ellen Dorothy Lorenz. [00:58:14] Speaker 7: How do you know Susan? She's my sister. Are you older or younger than Susan? [00:58:19] Speaker 12: I'm younger. [00:58:21] Speaker 7: By how much? Four years. Were you raised with Susan? Yes, I was. Do you and Susan have the same biological parents? Yes, we do. And were you raised by both parents? [00:58:31] Speaker 12: Yes, we were. [00:58:32] Speaker 7: Does your family have a history of mental health issues? [00:58:35] Speaker 12: Yes. [00:58:36] Speaker 7: What was your mother's name? [00:58:38] Speaker 12: Mildred Caroline Wurgacki Lorenz. [00:58:40] Speaker 7: What was she like? [00:58:44] Speaker 12: She was pretty much a good mom, but she had a lot of depression issues. My father was a drunk and he gambled a lot of money away. So my mom always had to work extra to keep, you know, the family together. [00:59:01] Speaker 7: And you said she suffered from depression? [00:59:03] Speaker 12: Yes. [00:59:04] Speaker 7: What was your paternal grandfather's name? [00:59:09] Speaker 12: Emrena Lorenz. [00:59:10] Speaker 7: And what was he like? [00:59:12] Speaker 12: I don't know because he hung himself about a month before I was born. [00:59:17] Speaker 7: What is your brother's name? [00:59:18] Speaker 12: Stephen Lewis Lorenz. [00:59:20] Speaker 7: Does he have the same biological parents as you and Susan? [00:59:23] Speaker 12: Yes, he does. [00:59:24] Speaker 7: What is your brother like? [00:59:26] Speaker 12: My brother is also a drunk. He's very violent at times. I haven't had any contact with him. After my mother died, he assaulted me. And I had a restraining order against him. [00:59:44] Speaker 7: You haven't seen him since? Yeah, pretty much. And was Susan there when he assaulted you? [00:59:49] Speaker 12: Yes, she was. [00:59:51] Speaker 7: How about your Uncle Freddy Wurgacki? What was he like? [00:59:56] Speaker 12: I only met him a couple of times, but I remember vividly the one. We were having a picnic outside of our house. And my Uncle Freddy was, I guess, seeing or talking to somebody in his mind. And he decided to try and burn our house down. [01:00:13] Speaker 7: And was he a paranoid schizophrenic with PTSD? [01:00:16] Speaker 12: Yes, he was. [01:00:18] Speaker 7: Was your Uncle Freddy on your mom's side or your dad's side? [01:00:22] Speaker 12: My mother's side. [01:00:23] Speaker 7: How about yourself? Do you suffer from mental health issues? [01:00:26] Speaker 12: Yes, I do. [01:00:27] Speaker 7: Will you please speak with us about that? [01:00:30] Speaker 12: I've been diagnosed with PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome, and also bipolar depression. [01:00:37] Speaker 7: And by PTSD, are you referring to post-traumatic stress disorder? [01:00:41] Speaker 12: Yes, I am. [01:00:46] Speaker 7: What is the cause of your PTSD and bipolar disorder? [01:00:51] Speaker 12: My father had been raping me since the time I was about four years old. And he beat us a lot when we were younger, especially. [01:01:03] Speaker 7: What was your father's name? [01:01:05] Speaker 12: Stephen Lorenz. [01:01:06] Speaker 7: When did your father begin abusing you and Susan? [01:01:12] Speaker 12: I guess he started with Susan before I was born. And then after I was, you know, after I was born, he waited until I was like three, four years old before he started doing whatever to me. I really don't remember it because I've kind of pushed it out of my mind. [01:01:29] Speaker 7: And did he sexually abuse both you and Susan starting at a young age? [01:01:33] Speaker 12: Yes, he did. [01:01:36] Speaker 7: Four years, did you blame yourself for allowing him to rape you? [01:01:40] Speaker 12: Yeah, I did. [01:01:42] Speaker 7: Please tell us a little bit about your father's background. [01:01:45] Speaker 12: My father was born in Hungary, a town called Nadvarod. And he was a freedom fighter in 1956, and that's how he ended up in the United States. He was sponsored by our Hungarian church up north in New Jersey. [01:02:01] Speaker 7: Was he a concentration camp prisoner? [01:02:03] Speaker 12: Yes, he was at one point. [01:02:07] Speaker 7: Was he, in addition to the sexual abuse, was he physically abusive to both you and your siblings? [01:02:15] Speaker 12: Basically, my father was physically, emotionally, and sexually abusive to all of us. Except my brother with the sexual. [01:02:23] Speaker 7: Was there an instance where you and Susan were present, where your father beat your brother Stephen on Easter Sunday? [01:02:29] Speaker 12: Yes. [01:02:29] Speaker 7: Will you please tell us about that? [01:02:31] Speaker 12: My brother had gone out partying all night, and he came home probably about four or five in the morning, and he was sleeping. And my dad wanted us all to go to church together. And my brother was like, no, I don't have to go to church. He was 18 already. And he's like, I don't have to. I'm an adult. And my father's like, no, you're getting up. And I remember him dragging him out of his room. And then they started pushing and shoving. And the next thing I know, my father was beating my brother so badly that he was unconscious. And he was still hitting him. And my sister and my mother had to pull him off of my brother. [01:03:15] Speaker 7: Was your father physically strong? [01:03:17] Speaker 12: Yes. He was a sheet rocker, and he worked in, you know, construction, so he was very strong. [01:03:24] Speaker 7: Now, a few minutes ago, you were discussing your mother and saying that she suffered from depression. [01:03:31] Speaker 12: Mm-hmm. [01:03:31] Speaker 7: As a result of that depression, were a lot of the household duties put on you and Susan? [01:03:37] Speaker 12: Yes. In what way? We were expected to, it started off with Sue, because she was older, that she would have to come home and make food for my family. And then when my sister got, like, she was babysitting jobs, and then I got to, you know, take over the duties of cooking. And, you know, Sue was always the one who cleaned most of the time, and she was the one who did a lot of the laundry. [01:04:08] Speaker 7: What would your father do to you and Susan if the food wasn't ready, when he was ready to eat? [01:04:15] Speaker 12: Oh, he would scream and yell at us and then tell us how stupid we were, and then he'd start beating us. [01:04:22] Speaker 7: Would he beat you and Susan unconscious at times? [01:04:26] Speaker 12: He had, one occasion I can remember, had beaten me, because I wanted to run. I told him I was going to run away from home because he was just so horrible. And I told him I was going to go live in New York City and find a way to get out, get away from him. And he's like, well, you're going to be homeless in New York City. This is what they do to homeless people. And he proceeded to beat the living snot out of me to the point where I was, we had a central heating register in the one house we lived in. And I remember waking up on that, and I was bruised all over, and he was just like so aggressive. And he's like, see, that's what's going to happen to you. [01:05:07] Speaker 7: Was your father psychologically abusive as well? [01:05:10] Speaker 12: Absolutely. [01:05:11] Speaker 7: In what way? [01:05:12] Speaker 12: He constantly told us that we were fat and stupid, we were ugly. I mean, just any kind of derogatory thing he could think of to call us. [01:05:30] Speaker 7: Was there a time in high school where you had lost a significant amount of weight and wanted to buy a dress? [01:05:38] Speaker 12: Yeah, I went on a diet, I went on Weight Watchers with my mom, and I proceeded to lose 100 pounds, because I was 300 pounds in high school. And I went down to like 199 pounds, which was huge for me. And I was trying to get some new clothes, and my father's like, well, it doesn't matter, you're ugly anyway, just go put a potato sack on. [01:06:00] Speaker 7: Was he that weight with Susan as well? [01:06:02] Speaker 12: Yes, he was. [01:06:03] Speaker 7: And was Susan overweight in high school as well? [01:06:06] Speaker 12: Yes. [01:06:08] Speaker 7: Was your father verbally abusive to your mother as well? [01:06:12] Speaker 12: On occasion, yeah. He would tell her she's a stupid, educated dummy. That was his favorite saying. And you're a fat pig, and he would tell her to stop eating, and just nasty in general. [01:06:26] Speaker 7: When did the rapes begin for you? [01:06:29] Speaker 12: Apparently, I was four years old, and my sister and my mom and my brother had gone out shopping. And when they came home, my dad was holding a bath towel between my legs, and it was covered in blood. And he told my mom that I had done a Russian split and split myself, and that's why I was bleeding so heavily. [01:06:54] Speaker 7: And did the rapes go on for decades? Yes. And for Susan as well? [01:06:57] Speaker 12: Yes. [01:06:58] Speaker 7: Was he violent during these rapes? [01:07:01] Speaker 12: Yes. He would, you know, make sure he covered our mouth so that nobody could hear our, he would muffle our screams and such. [01:07:11] Speaker 7: Did there ever come a time where your mother found out that your father was sexually abusing both you and Susan? [01:07:20] Speaker 12: Um, she didn't find out until I was in my late 20s because I was ashamed. [01:07:30] Speaker 7: What did you and your sister do in order to try to prevent these rapes? [01:07:35] Speaker 12: Well, we kept gaining weight because he hated fat women. And he, my mom also did that too because he was just, you know, rough with her and nasty. [01:07:48] Speaker 7: Was your father cruel to people outside of the home as well? [01:07:52] Speaker 12: Yes, he was. He had no problem, like, I remember one of his friends' daughter had gained some weight, and he's like, oh my God, you look horrible, you look like a stuffed pig. You know, just really nasty. [01:08:05] Speaker 7: When your father passed away, was your father asking women out at her funeral? [01:08:10] Speaker 12: You mean my mother? [01:08:11] Speaker 7: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, when your mother passed away, yes. [01:08:13] Speaker 12: When my mother passed away, we had a service down here for our friends here, and he was asking women out, and then we had another service a week and a half later, and we went to New Jersey to our church we grew up in, the Hungarian church. And a lot of people, you know, came because they knew my mom. And I remember he asked the one lady, Lois, out that had been, you know, he tried to get with her when he was younger before he married my mom. And he was like, oh, and she's like, she actually introduced her husband, who was black, and he's like, oh, he married a black man. My father was extremely prejudiced, and he's like, you're tainted now. I mean, just cruel, cruel words. [01:09:01] Speaker 7: Once your mother passed away, did your father kick you and Susan out of the house? [01:09:09] Speaker 12: Yes, he did. [01:09:10] Speaker 7: Has Susan suffered through a lot of bad car accidents? [01:09:13] Speaker 12: Yes, she has. [01:09:14] Speaker 7: And suffered several physical ramifications because of those accidents? [01:09:18] Speaker 12: She also had a couple horseback riding accidents, too. [01:09:28] Speaker 7: Do you have a son? [01:09:29] Speaker 12: Yes, I do. [01:09:30] Speaker 7: And what is his name? [01:09:31] Speaker 12: Gabriel Michael Lorenz Dunn. [01:09:34] Speaker 7: Is Susan and Gabriel very close? [01:09:37] Speaker 12: Very. [01:09:38] Speaker 7: How would you describe their closeness, their relationship? [01:09:42] Speaker 12: He absolutely adores her, and she's like a second mom to him. [01:09:46] Speaker 7: Does Gabriel suffer from disabilities and mental health issues? [01:09:50] Speaker 12: Yes, he does. [01:09:51] Speaker 7: What kind? [01:09:52] Speaker 12: My son was born legally blind. He can see with glasses, but he still has vision issues. I mean, his vision's still not, even with the glasses, he's still not 100%. He also has autism. He has ADHD and ODD, which is oppositional defiance disorder. [01:10:11] Speaker 7: How has Susan helped you with your son? [01:10:14] Speaker 12: Oh, she would take him on the weekends so that I could get a break and, you know, just get myself together. And she absolutely loved him. She took him all over the place, and he had a blast with her. [01:10:30] Speaker 7: You spoke about when your brother attacked you, the last time that you saw him. Susan was there for that, right? Yes, she was. Can you tell us about that, please? [01:10:40] Speaker 12: Well, my brother, Stephen, had come to live with us right after my mom passed away. And my dad was in Europe getting his next wife. And Stephen came in, and he was, you know, kind of drunk already and nasty. And we had just finished supper, and we made supper for all three of us. And my brother just left everything, and I had yelled at him. I'm like, Stephen, just bring your plate to the sink at least and, you know, clean off the table. And he's like, I don't have to do crap. I'm a guy. You're a woman. You need to do it. So he ended up. I'm like, don't be a pig. And he finally brings the plate over, and he throws it in the sink. And then he started screaming at me, and he basically got in my face. And at one point, I had taken a bite of some food, and I took a deep inhale, and I was kind of choking on it. And he kept screaming at me and screaming at me. And I was coughing so hard, I finally coughed it up, and it hit him in the face. And he took whatever he was drinking, and he threw it at me, and it had ice in it, and it was very cold. And then he took the glass and roundhoused me on top of my head, and he sliced the side of my head open. [01:12:03] Speaker 7: Has Susan worked as an EMT paramedic in the past? [01:12:06] Speaker 12: Yes, she has. [01:12:07] Speaker 7: And has she discussed with you how traumatic seeing what she saw during those times were to her? [01:12:14] Speaker 12: Yes, she has. [01:12:15] Speaker 7: Did she also have a friend named Lizzie who was murdered when you all were kids? Yes. And did that very much affect both you and Susan? Yes. Has Susan seen a therapist in the past? [01:12:26] Speaker 12: Yes, she has. [01:12:26] Speaker 7: Is Susan a very private person? Yes. In what way? [01:12:34] Speaker 12: She doesn't like people to know her problems. She tries to keep that to herself, and she always tries to help others instead of making everybody feel sorry for her. She just does her thing, and she just doesn't let people in easily. You have to really know Sue to really get to, you know, what's going on with her. Where did you and Susan grow up? We grew up in New Jersey. [01:13:00] Speaker 7: And what was the neighborhood like, in Cleveland specifically? [01:13:04] Speaker 12: We grew up in rough neighborhoods. You know, it just, it was low income, and it was just rough. [01:13:12] Speaker 7: Before this incident occurred, had Susan told you that she was afraid of the deceased Ms. Owens? Yes, she was. Did Susan tell you before this incident that she was, that she's been triggered by things that were going on in the neighborhood, and that she could not sleep even with medication? [01:13:30] Speaker 12: Yes, she did. [01:13:32] Speaker 7: Susan a hard worker? Absolutely. Has she always maintained herself? [01:13:36] Speaker 12: Yes, she has. [01:13:37] Speaker 7: Financially? [01:13:39] Speaker 12: She even helped me with my son, you know, when I was short on cash. She always, you know, made sure Gabriel had school clothes, even shoes. I mean, she was always there for me. [01:13:50] Speaker 7: And you all actually have opened up restaurants together, right? [01:13:53] Speaker 12: Yes, we have. [01:13:54] Speaker 7: And run them? [01:13:55] Speaker 12: Yes. [01:13:55] Speaker 7: Successful? [01:13:56] Speaker 12: Absolutely. [01:13:59] Speaker 7: What is your relationship like with Susan? [01:14:02] Speaker 12: Um, it's great. You know, we're sisters, and we love each other. [01:14:11] Speaker 7: With everything that you all have been through, through childhood and going into adulthood, would you say you're close, you and her? Yes, very. And you still speak with her? [01:14:22] Speaker 12: Yes. [01:14:26] Speaker 7: Do you love your sister? [01:14:28] Speaker 12: Yes. [01:14:29] Speaker 7: Your Honor, I have no further questions. [01:14:37] Speaker 2: No questions. [01:14:38] Speaker 6: Thank you. I have your excuse. Thank you very much. [01:14:41] Speaker ?: Thank you. [01:14:41] Speaker 7: Dr. Yannis Castillo, Your Honor. [01:15:07] Speaker 12: Thank you. [01:15:37] Speaker 1: Can I stand face the clerk? Raise your right hand, please. Thank you very much. [01:15:43] Speaker 8: Do you swear to firm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so be God? [01:15:48] Speaker 13: Yes, I do. [01:15:49] Speaker ?: If you please put the bottle of water someplace other than that, yeah, thank you. [01:16:01] Speaker 1: Good afternoon. [01:16:18] Speaker 13: Good afternoon. [01:16:19] Speaker 7: Please tell us your full name. [01:16:20] Speaker 13: Dr. Yannis Castillo, Y-E-N-Y-S, and my last name is C-A-S-T-I-L-L-O. [01:16:28] Speaker 7: Are you a licensed psychologist? [01:16:30] Speaker 13: Yes, I am. [01:16:31] Speaker 7: Out of where? Out of where? [01:16:32] Speaker 13: I've been licensed in the state of Florida since 2015. [01:16:35] Speaker 7: And do you live in Miami? I do. Is that where your practice is? [01:16:39] Speaker 13: I practice in various states, but I reside in Miami. [01:16:42] Speaker 7: Will you please go over your educational background for us, please? [01:16:46] Speaker 13: So I have an associate's in science degree from Florida International University, a bachelor's degree from Florida International University, a master's degree in clinical psychology from Berry University, and a doctoral degree from NOAA Southeastern University. [01:17:06] Speaker 7: What proportion of your cases throughout your career involve cases within the criminal justice system? [01:17:13] Speaker 13: So towards the beginning of my career, I would say that maybe 20%, but now it's more like 95% of my cases are within the legal system. [01:17:21] Speaker 7: Have you testified as a witness who was qualified to give opinion testimony as a psychologist in court before? [01:17:27] Speaker 13: Yes, I have. [01:17:28] Speaker 7: In what capacity? [01:17:30] Speaker 13: So I have testified as a trauma expert, as an expert on adolescent brain development, forensic psychology, clinical psychology. How many times? Over 30 times. [01:17:42] Speaker 7: Both for the state and the defense? [01:17:44] Speaker 13: Yes. I have testified over 20 times for the defense and probably around less than 10 times for the prosecution. [01:17:55] Speaker 7: What is your current position? [01:17:58] Speaker 13: So I am in clinical in private practice. So I do clinical and forensic psychology. I also work for a company called Earth 3 Continuum where I do evaluations for employment, and that means individuals who are fit for duty. Or when something happens, something traumatic happens in a workplace like a suicide or it could be a murder, it could be an accident. And then I go there and talk to the employees about psychological trauma. [01:18:26] Speaker 7: And you also do forensic work as well, like you did on this case? [01:18:30] Speaker 13: Yes. In my private practice I do forensic work and I'm also a pro bono evaluator for Physicians for Human Rights. [01:18:36] Speaker 7: And you're licensed in the state of Florida? [01:18:37] Speaker 13: I have been licensed since 2015. [01:18:39] Speaker 7: Have you done any specialized training specifically in trauma? [01:18:43] Speaker 13: Yes. So from the beginning of my career I was interested in psychological trauma and I have worked with exposure-based psychotherapies. I have worked in domestic violence shelters, in the VA hospital. I also did work in a clinic for adult survivors of childhood abuse. I have also worked with children who have experienced psychological trauma. [01:19:05] Speaker 7: Have you evaluated and treated individuals with trauma? [01:19:09] Speaker 13: Yes. So I would say that a good 80% of my clients or the people that I evaluate have endured psychological [01:19:17] Speaker 7: trauma. Have you conducted any research in trauma? [01:19:21] Speaker 13: Yes. As part of my doctoral program I did a dissertation on the impact of PTSD and depression, the relationship between that attachment and difficulty with emotional processing. And during those five years I conducted research in a place called the Trauma Resolution and Integration Program. [01:19:39] Speaker 7: And by PTSD are you specifically referring to post-traumatic stress disorder? [01:19:44] Speaker 13: Correct. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:19:46] Speaker 7: Have you spoken about trauma at professional conferences? [01:19:48] Speaker 13: Yes. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:20:03] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:20:09] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:20:27] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:20:33] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:20:55] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:20:56] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:21:23] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:21:28] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:21:51] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:21:57] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:13] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:15] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:17] Speaker 1: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:21] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:22] Speaker 1: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:23] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:23] Speaker 1: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:30] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:31] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:33] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:34] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:38] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:39] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:42] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:43] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:43] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:44] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:46] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:22:51] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:23:04] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:24:41] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:24:44] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:24:49] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:24:50] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:24:53] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:24:54] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:25:13] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:25:24] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:25:24] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:25:29] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:25:29] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:25:48] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:25:53] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:25:53] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:26:33] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:26:40] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:26:59] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:26:59] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:27:12] Speaker 7: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:27:16] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:27:35] Speaker ?: Post-traumatic stress disorder. [01:27:35] Speaker 13: And for example, when individuals suffer trauma in childhood, that's a poor prognostic factor or that is going to be a bigger risk factor for developing PTSD. [01:27:45] Speaker 7: But before we get into PTSD itself, can you tell us how the normal stress response works? In other words, how do we inherently respond to stress in the absence of PTSD? [01:27:55] Speaker 13: So, our bodies are wired to survive. And that is through different brain structures and through different powerful stress hormones and substances. So, what happens is that we have within our brain what we call the low road. And that means we respond very quickly to stress when we encounter something scary. There is a structure in the brain that we call the amygdala, but it's like a smoke detector. And when that signals that there is danger, there is a cascade of processes that makes our bodies get stronger and quicker. So, for example, if we are in the woods and we encounter a predator, we would experience a surge in adrenaline. And that would mean that we're going to get stronger, more focused, the blood is going to rush to the organs that it needs to rush. We're not going to be experiencing digestion in the moment. It's almost like we're wired for survival, right? And that is what we call the low road. And that is very automatic. We don't really control that. There is another road, which we call the high road. And that is the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that engages in consideration, in planning. So, when we encounter danger, actually, that part that is engaging in planning comes and says, "Okay, there is no danger." Even though, like, you feel this alarm, your heart is beating really fast, everything is safe, right? What happens in PTSD is that, in essence, there is an overdrive of that fire alarm, the amygdala is very overactive. And the part of our brain that considers options, that thinks, that tells time, collapses. Actually, during PTSD, there is a part of the brain that might collapse in such a way, we call it, like, the prefrontal, part of the prefrontal cortex, where we cannot tell whether something happened in the past or something is happening now. And that's why we think individuals have these flashbacks, these intrusive memories where the person thinks, "I'm experiencing this right now." [01:30:11] Speaker 7: How does trauma impact a person physically? [01:30:14] Speaker 13: So, it's very important to know that psychological trauma is deeply biological and that trauma comes back sometimes not only as a memory but as a reaction. So, individuals with psychological trauma will be oversensitized for danger. And that is what's going on in the body. The amygdala is hyperactive. The smoke detector is going on and there is a false alarm. So, there is a hyperarousal, the person might become very hypervigilant, tense up. And these are all things that are happening within our body. One of the things that happens is that at the end of this stress response, cortisol, which is a very powerful stress hormone, has to send a signal saying it's time to stop the stress response and go back to normal, rest and digest. And that doesn't happen in PTSD. We think that the person is experiencing these surges of anxiety in their body. [01:31:14] Speaker 7: How does trauma impact a person psychologically? [01:31:17] Speaker 13: So, psychologically, psychological trauma does different things. One is, psychological trauma is going to attack what we call the attachment system. Which is that bond that we have with our loved one and that gets internalized in our personality. That's why when we are really afraid, we want our parents there, right? So, when we experience psychological trauma, we start thinking I'm damaged. I'm no good. I don't have a place in the world. I know that people are not going to be there for me. And that's the attachment system, that sense of safety and security. It also makes people hyper-focused on threat. So, they will see somebody crossing the street and they will think that this person is going to attack me. Sometimes that fear is not really rational, but it's part in the way that it changes us psychologically. We may avoid things. We may feel disconnected, damaged, like we're not part of this world. [01:32:18] Speaker 7: How does trauma impact a person's social? [01:32:22] Speaker 13: So, individuals with psychological trauma might start to self-isolate. They don't trust people. Their trust is shattered. So, they have difficulty with intimacy and with telling people their problems and seeking that support, which is very important for recovery of psychological trauma. They may perceive other people as aggressors and they're going to have trouble with strained relationships because they might not develop those social skills. [01:32:53] Speaker 7: How does psychological trauma interfere with healthy psychological development? [01:32:58] Speaker 13: So, we now know that the brain is a social organ and that means that the brain needs relationships to function properly and to develop properly. The brain develops from simple to complex. So, in order for me to modulate my reactions and to modulate my emotions, I need to understand what they are. Right? And in order for me to develop that skill of regulating my feelings, I need another nervous system. The child is born without any idea as to how he can regulate his distress. Right? They're very reactive. They have a lot of cortisol going on. The child depends on the mother or the caregiver to regulate himself or herself. And then we go from this co-regulation to self-regulation. So, we develop those skills. When psychological trauma happens while the brain is still developing, it's almost like leaving a footprint on the wet concrete. We don't develop those skills because that's the time that we're supposed to be developing social skills, emotional skills. So, you will see individuals who come to therapy as adult survivors of childhood trauma and they don't know how to manage their money. They have difficulty with establishing a long-term relationship. They have difficulty keeping a job. They have different difficulties because it impacted their development. [01:34:23] Speaker 7: Going back to Susan specifically, you said you were asked to assess whether she had post-traumatic stress disorder. Correct. Did you speak with Susan specifically? [01:34:32] Speaker 13: Yes, I did. [01:34:33] Speaker 7: And how many times? [01:34:34] Speaker 13: I spoke to her five times. [01:34:38] Speaker 7: For how many hours in total? [01:34:40] Speaker 13: 11.8 hours. [01:34:41] Speaker 7: What were your clinical observations or findings about her current mental state when you spoke with her? [01:34:46] Speaker 13: When I saw Ms. Lawrence, she was psychologically stable. She was worried. She was anxious, especially about her sister and her sister's son. During the last times that I saw her, she was in a darker mood and she was talking about the victim in this case. She said that that has overtaken her thoughts even more than her case. Ms. Lawrence was cooperative with me, but I also sensed that she had difficulty about talking about certain things. She's a very private person and she's really not used to talking about this very painful thing. She's very ashamed of having been the victim of psychological trauma. Even though it's not her fault, she has internalized that guilt. And she didn't want to talk too much about her relationships and things like that. And you could tell that she was getting fatigued towards the end of the sessions. And she's like, "When are we going to be done?" kind of thing, because she was experiencing pain. [01:35:46] Speaker 7: Was she very remorseful in regard to Ms. Owens and her passing away? [01:35:51] Speaker 13: To me, she expressed, especially in the last two times that I saw her, that when she looks at this rationally, right, she said to me, I now realize that she was like a mama bear, taking care of her kids. And that's how I see her now. But that's not what I saw that day. And this is terrible. So she was, she expressed that to me very much. [01:36:16] Speaker 7: Did you speak to anyone else who knew Susan personally? [01:36:19] Speaker 13: Ms. Yes, I did. [01:36:20] Speaker 7: And you reviewed several records in this case, correct? Ms. Yes. And we don't have to go through all of them. Did you administer any psychological measures, your tests? [01:36:29] Speaker 13: Ms. Yes. Okay. [01:36:31] Speaker 7: And let's start off with, when you assess someone for PTSD, do you limit yourself to a list of PTSD symptoms, or do you assess other aspects of the person's life? [01:36:46] Speaker 13: Ms. I assess other aspects of the person's life, because PTSD doesn't occur in a vacuum. So I want to look at also what are some risk factors that the person had, and some prognostic factors. Okay. [01:37:01] Speaker 7: And is going through the history of the family, of the person that you're evaluating, important? Ms. Yes, it is. And why is that important? [01:37:10] Speaker 13: Ms. So we know that things like anxiety and depression runs in family. We also know that from generation to generation, trauma gets passed down through different mechanisms, right? And we don't totally understand all the mechanisms. But we know that even, for example, with children of Holocaust survivors, that the children may experience symptoms when they have never been exposed to trauma. So we're looking at the transgenerational dysfunction and how that shapes a person's choices. [01:37:42] Speaker 7: What did you learn about Susan's paternal family that helped in your analysis of whether she suffers from PTSD or not? [01:37:51] Speaker 13: Ms. So Susan's grandfather, his name was Steven Lawrence, they have different pronunciations, the grandfather and the father, was born in Transylvania. She indicated that at the time that was part of Hungary, and it was occupied by Russia, and that he lost his lands. And when he lost his lands, he became severely depressed, he began drinking, and he ended up dying by suicide. This is her grandfather. Before that, he had been physically abusive towards Susan's father. The father leaves home at an early age, and he ends up in a concentration camp at around age 12 or 13. Susan's father, Steven Lawrence, as well, he ends up being raped in the concentration camp, tortured. He still had marks in his back, and he had a tattoo indicating that he had been a number, a prisoner number. [01:38:46] Speaker 7: What did you learn about Susan's maternal family? [01:38:49] Speaker 13: Ms. On the maternal side, there is a Polish descent there. And she indicated that most of the males on the side of the family struggle with some sort of substance abuse issue. They discuss an uncle named Uncle Michael, who was very aggressive. They talk about an Uncle Freddy, who went to the Vietnam War and came back with PTSD, and he also had schizophrenia. They describe him as Manson-esque, aggressive at times. At one point in her childhood, he tried to set her house on fire while Susan was there with her sister. And on the mother's side, the mother was one of six children. She lost her father early, and there is reports that she was sexually abused by some of her brothers. [01:39:40] Speaker 7: And her mother was depressed as well? [01:39:42] Speaker 13: Ms. Her mother, both Ellen and Susan indicated that their mom was depressed, was very overweight. She weighed over 300 pounds, and she wouldn't do much. She would sit there and be depressed. [01:39:54] Speaker 7: Why is this family history significant to you as a psychologist? [01:39:58] Speaker 13: Ms. Well, one of the things is this damage that goes from generation to generation, this impairment in the parents. And then we'll see how Susan's father becomes an aggressor towards her and the sister and the brother. And then as well, this idea that they're not going to be protective of her and they're actually going to be the source, the biggest source of her trauma. [01:40:23] Speaker 7: You spoke to Ellen Lawrence, Susan's sister? Ms. Yes, I did. What information did she give you about herself that was significant in your analysis on Susan Lawrence? [01:40:33] Speaker 13: Ms. So Ellen indicated that she struggles with PTSD, with depression. She has done a lot of work, but she still struggles a lot with mental health issues. She indicated that their father raped them both for many years. So he raped Susan from ages 4 to 20, and he raped Ellen, the sister, from age 4 to 18. These rapes were violent. He would beat them up, sometimes to unconsciousness, and rape them. He was very, very abusive. They lived in the same household. So she corroborated the things that Susan indicated. [01:41:14] Speaker 7: What can you tell us about Susan's brother, Stephen Lawrence? [01:41:17] Speaker 13: Ms. Susan's brother, according to Susan and to Ellen, had difficulties with drugs. He was addicted to drugs. He was also very aggressive, and they describe him as taking after the father. He was sexually abusive to both Susan and Ellen. They wouldn't get too much into that. And then there is an instance in which he gets upset after their mother dies. I think Susan must have been like 40 years old around this time. And Susan's sister was choking, and she spit on him, not wanting to do so. And then he took a plexiglass and broke it against her face. They called the police, and she indicated that, I mean, they both have a lot of medical issues, that she had to have neck fusion. [01:42:05] Speaker 7: And you find, was there corroboration about her being arrested in Hernando County? I'm sorry, him being arrested, Stephen, in Hernando County? [01:42:15] Speaker 13: Ms. Yes, I saw a record indicated that he had been arrested. And in the record, the record matched with what Susan told me about the event and what Ellen told me. And actually, in the record, Susan gave a statement. [01:42:27] Speaker 7: What is the relevance of Susan's siblings' history of mental illness, substance abuse, and aggression? [01:42:32] Speaker 13: Because these are individuals who are living in the same household, and they all get damaged in different ways. But it's also, this legacy of silence, of protecting the abusers, is going to prevent these siblings from really supporting each other, either because of conflict or because of lack of ability. [01:42:52] Speaker 7: Now, you mentioned that PTSD requires the presence of traumatic events. How did you assess the presence of traumatic events in Susan's life, specifically? [01:43:01] Speaker 13: So, there is a checklist called the Life Event Checklist that has, I think, 16 traumatic incidents and one that is kind of like an additional catch-all. And this fits that definition of psychological trauma, sexual violence, serious injury or death, or the potential of these issues. So, I administer that. [01:43:26] Speaker 7: And Susan endorsed 13 of 17, right? Correct. And you mentioned before that, now, is the purpose of LEC-5? The leg-5. The leg-5, thank you. To see if someone actually suffers from the issues in regard to PTSD. [01:43:45] Speaker 13: So, the purpose of this is, before we assess PTSD, we need to make sure that the person actually has trauma, a traumatic incident. So, this is a checklist of events that fit that definition. So, the purpose of this checklist is to get the worst event, the event that haunts the person the most, and then assess PTSD according to that stress. [01:44:11] Speaker 7: And what was it that haunts Susan the most? [01:44:13] Speaker 13: Being raped and repeatedly raped and beat up by her father since age 4 to 20. [01:44:21] Speaker 7: Are the results of this test consistent with someone who has post-traumatic stress disorder in regard to Susan? [01:44:27] Speaker 13: So, for the checklist, what I'm assessing is that she has all these traumatic incidents, so it's not about symptoms. But she has a lot of different traumatic incidents which would worsen the possibility of getting PTSD. [01:44:45] Speaker 7: Now, you mentioned that both Susan and Ellen told you about the rapes that her father perpetrated, right? Yes. How old was Susan when the rape started? She was around 4 years old. And did it last for decades? [01:45:02] Speaker 13: It lasted for decades. They were unpredictable. And they were actually accompanied by psychological abuse. He would call them fat, fat blobs, you're ugly, nobody's gonna love you, put something on your face. So, this, you know, was a very painful, painful decades of their life. [01:45:22] Speaker 7: And in addition to the sexual abuse, there was physical abuse as well. Correctly. [01:45:28] Speaker 13: He would beat them up with anything he had at hand. So, it was very physically abusive. And like I said, there is a part of trauma that is even worse when it cannot be predicted. They will have to walk around eggshells. So, he would come home, demand fresh meals. He wouldn't take leftovers. They had to cook soup every day. And if they didn't do things exactly like he wanted them, he would just beat them up. At one point, they wanted to leave and he's like, this is what I do to sluts or whores. And then he would like beat them and rape them. So, it was very intense. [01:46:02] Speaker 7: And Alan corroborated other traumatic events that happened to Susan? [01:46:06] Speaker 13: Correct. So, with Susan, we have natural disasters because she used to work as an EMT at around age 20. So, she saw fires. During her work as an EMT, she saw the grotesque. She saw people caught. She saw a lot of things. She worked near an airport. So, she saw plane crashes, victims. She's had a lot of car accidents that would fall under the definition of psychological trauma as well. So, she's had a lot of knee surgeries as a result of that and spinal surgery. She's had, she's fell from a horse. She's fell at home. She's fell on the street. One of the worst events that she described was her mother dying from a condition. Mesothelioma. [01:46:57] Speaker 7: Yes. [01:46:58] Speaker 13: Yes. Yes. And part of that is this idea that the reason the mom acquired the disease is because the father was exposed to asbestos and they all have to shake his clothes. So, Susan and Ellen have also been exposed to asbestos because of this. So, there is a big fear that they might develop this because this is something that may lay dormant. [01:47:25] Speaker 7: Did you find records where Susan reported these traumatic incidents to other individuals? [01:47:31] Speaker 13: Yes. So, prior to this, the only records I have is like the Ocala records where there was a diagnosis there, right? So, I didn't see medical records when she disclosed this before, but when she was arrested, they asked her very pointed questions about have you ever been robbed? Have you ever been sexually abused? And she gave the same answers about her traumatic incidents. She had a friend who was murdered. She mentioned that. And the friend was kidnapped and raped and left to die. And there was a lot of screaming. So, like to her, screams are triggering for her. She mentioned that to the police. She mentioned to the police having been beat up by a boyfriend. She mentioned having been sexually abused, having been robbed. So, yes, she did mention some of these things. [01:48:26] Speaker 7: And some of those traumatic incidents are also the Marion County jail records which are in evidence, correct? So, yes. [01:48:32] Speaker 13: So, in the Marion County jail records, when they asked her, she reported incidents as well. And she also reported post-traumatic symptoms in those records. [01:48:51] Speaker 7: Does everybody who experienced trauma develop PTSD? Or in other words, does trauma and adversity impact everybody in the same way? No. [01:48:59] Speaker 13: So, most people who experience trauma, like 70% of people more or less, will experience some of these traumatic incidents. Less than 15% will develop PTSD. So, PTSD is not going to be experienced by everybody. [01:49:16] Speaker 7: And who is more likely to develop PTSD or have more severe symptoms of PTSD? [01:49:21] Speaker 13: So, there are different things. Like with everything, we bring vulnerabilities. So, individuals, for example, with childhood trauma are more likely to develop PTSD than somebody who was involved in a car accident as an adult. Right? So, there are certain types of trauma that are more linked to PTSD. It also depends on a person's things that happen before the trauma, things that happen during the trauma, things that happen after the trauma. So, there are many factors. So, let's talk a little bit. [01:49:52] Speaker 7: Does Susan have any of the factors for pre-trauma? Yes. [01:49:56] Speaker 13: So, pre-trauma factors are things that happen before you're exposed that matter. So, for example, female gender, having a history of childhood adverse events, lost socioeconomic status, and that idea that various family members have experienced trauma. [01:50:18] Speaker 7: You mentioned that women carry a higher risk for PTSD. Why is that? [01:50:24] Speaker 13: We think it could be because women are more exposed to sexual trauma. We don't know for sure, but that's something that we're thinking about in the field. [01:50:33] Speaker 7: Now, you mentioned -- we know she's a female, obviously, and she has a history of prior trauma exposure. Can you tell me about any additional history of adverse childhood adversities that she has? [01:50:55] Speaker 13: So, yes. So, when we look at her life, her mother had those mental health issues. The mother was depressed. The mother did not offer protection. So, that is something that we called supervisory neglect or lack of guidance. Susan indicated that her mother's attitude was like, "If you can read, read a recipe." So, kind of like they had to serve their father, and the mother would not protect them from the physical abuse that she knew of. There is a time when Ellen was around 14 years old, and she tells the mother what happened to her, and the mother didn't believe her. And at this time, Susan was out of the house, and she remembers that as a betrayal. So, this idea that the mother had these issues is part of her childhood adversity. Also, the father had mental and personality problems. He was extremely violent and aggressive and verbally abusive. They indicated that at one point, he made fun of somebody from outside the family, a young girl, and she ended up dying by suicide. So, he exposed her to domestic violence and things like that as well. There are also multiple forms of neglect. Not being taken to the doctor for regular appointments. Not being fed, not being taken care of. So, Susan and her sister had to go, had to fend for themselves. [01:52:28] Speaker 7: And in addition to the physical and sexual abuse that's covered, obviously there was psychological abuse, correct? [01:52:34] Speaker 13: The psychological abuse was a big part of it, and there is a point in which Susan has to make a lot of adaptations in her personality. She wanted to please her father. So, even as an adult, she would try to give her father gifts or to hug her father. And it might seem irrational unless you have a trauma bond, a bond where this person that is a source of your trauma, you also depend on this person for love and acceptance of your personality. The father also told her, you cannot go to West Point Academy, even though she had passed the test and all of that, because you should be a secretary. And that may seem also irrational. Why would she do what the father wanted? But she did for a long time. [01:53:19] Speaker 7: Now, you mentioned that Susan also has a history of neglect throughout her childhood, right? Correct. You mentioned having a previous mental disorder as a risk factor as well. [01:53:30] Speaker 13: So, with Susan, she's always had depression. And it's kind of hard to know what comes first, the depression or the PTSD, because they have been present in her life. She doesn't remember, not having experienced the symptoms. So, she has depressive episodes and that would be consistent with major depressive disorder. [01:53:51] Speaker 7: How about her being raised in low socioeconomic status? How would that affect her? [01:53:58] Speaker 13: So, there is a very real way in which she lived in very poor neighborhoods where there was a lot of crime. So, she was victimized herself. There was a time where someone broke into her house and stole their belongings. She's been held at gunpoint. And also, she's seen the grotesque in the neighborhood as well. She's seen criminal events. She's hearing stabbings and shootings. So, they always lived in low socioeconomic status neighborhoods. [01:54:30] Speaker 7: Now, let's talk about peri-traumatic factors. Yes. What are peri-traumatic factors? [01:54:36] Speaker 13: Peri-traumatic factors are things that happen while the trauma is happening. And this is the most predictive. These factors are the most predictive in terms of how individuals will respond to trauma. Will they develop PTSD? Will they have poor prognosis? Will they have greater symptom severity? [01:54:55] Speaker 7: And Susan, what peri-traumatic factors does she have that indicated to you that she would likely develop post-traumatic stress disorder? [01:55:03] Speaker 13: So, when I look at the DSM looking for these factors, she had all of them. Greater severity in terms of intensity and frequency. So, individuals who experience trauma that is severe and that happens for several years have a higher likelihood of developing PTSD. She has that. Greater perceived life threat. So, perceiving that you're going to die while you're undergoing this trauma, we know that survivors of rape experience this idea that I'm going to die. Also, the father said, literally, I am going to kill you if you resist or if you tell anybody. The feelings of helplessness, uncontrollability while the trauma is happening. She experienced that as well. Also, greater proximity to the trauma. People who experience the trauma themselves have a higher likelihood of developing PTSD than people who observe the trauma happening to someone else, for example. Also, the idea that the trauma is interpersonal. And then the dissociation. So, the dissociation is that when individuals experience psychological trauma, sometimes they dissociate. There is a disconnect. Dissociating means there is a disconnect either with your emotions, with your memories, with your reality. Dissociation means I'm not going to be there when it happens, right? So, Susan indicated that when her father was raping her, at the beginning she screamed. But when he threatened her, she just laid there and she could see herself from the outside as if this rape is happening to someone else. And that's what we call dissociation. And that has a higher risk of PTSD. Because then individuals begin dissociating as a matter of copying. And the last one was this interpersonal trauma. When a trauma is an act of God, what we call an act of God, so an actual disaster. A human didn't create that trauma. That can be less traumatizing than when the act is perpetrated by a person. What we call interpersonal trauma. So, interpersonal trauma is linked to a higher incidence or higher risk for PTSD. [01:57:18] Speaker 7: What is complex trauma, betrayal trauma, and toxic stress? [01:57:22] Speaker 13: So, this is all part of this interpersonal construct. Complex trauma talks about when individuals experience psychological trauma for repeated periods of times. By caregivers who are supposed to be there to love them. During the developmental period, during childhood. That might result in a more complex symptom profile that goes beyond what you would call regular PTSD. These are individuals that have developmental challenges. Betrayal trauma indicates that when trauma is perpetrated by someone, by the institutions or the caregivers, in whom we're supposed to trust, then our trust might be shattered. One interesting thing about betrayal trauma is that individuals and society might deny aspects of this trauma. And Susan had to deny aspects of the trauma to want to hug her dad and take care of him in his older age. Right? Or take care of her mom. And toxic stress is this idea that when children undergo trauma without any support, their development, the way they think, the way they function might be impacted as well. [01:58:41] Speaker 7: What are post-traumatic risk factors? [01:58:43] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic risk factors are factors that happen after the person experiences the trauma and that are associated with worse prognosis or with higher likelihood of PTSD. [01:58:54] Speaker 7: And does Susan have that? Yes. [01:58:58] Speaker 13: So she had low levels of social support, exposure to ongoing stressful events, and exposure to new traumas. And part of that low levels of social support is interesting because Susan has friends, and Susan has had romantic relationships, but she doesn't disclose her pain to her friends. She's very ashamed. She doesn't want to be a burden. Part of her might believe that people cannot help her. So she has self-isolated. And that's part of that traumatic effect. [01:59:37] Speaker 7: How about exposure to ongoing stressful life events? [01:59:40] Speaker 13: So she has experienced multiple stressors, like the ones I discussed in the leg five, being assaulted, being sexually, she was also sexually assaulted by a landlord when she was a young person, a young child. And that was happening actually while she was still being abused by her father. She was about nine years old when she was sexually abused. [02:00:06] Speaker 7: And another post-traumatic stress factor is having medical issues, correct? [02:00:12] Speaker 13: Yes. So having medical issues has been a big problem for her. It's very interesting because sometimes you will see that individuals who experience trauma, sexual trauma, will gain weight. I mean, consciously or unconsciously, many times unconsciously, to become less attractive to their rapist. And we know that the father said that he didn't like overweight women, right? He called them derogatory terms. So both her and her sister gained weight to avoid these rapes. And they developed medical conditions as a result. They both went gastric surgeries. And Susan had multiple surgeries to correct problems that happened during this gastric surgery. So she's had accidents, falls, gastric surgeries, knee surgery, spinal surgery. She has chronic pain. So she's infirm in many ways. [02:01:08] Speaker 7: Has she been exposed to new trauma as well? [02:01:11] Speaker 13: Yes. So like I said, the trauma happened until age 20. When she's older, she's also beat up by one of her boyfriends. And she also lost her friend, Kalina, when she was a child, her best friend, who was kidnapped and killed. And that was a big thing for her. I think she talked to me about that the first session and she cried about this. Like it was very rough for her. She also talked about another student who died in a car accident and she also cried during that time. So she has experienced multiple events. [02:01:49] Speaker 7: And the death of her mother dying from mesothelioma, that was very traumatic to her. [02:01:54] Speaker 13: It was traumatic. It was stressful. So we may not consider something traumatic if the death is natural. But there is a belief in their minds that the father exposed them because he was not careful enough. So kind of like the ultimate thing. And when the mother was dying and she was taking care of the mother, the father didn't want her to have pain medication. He was very abusive to her verbally as well and once physically. And he was withholding medication from somebody who's dying in pain. [02:02:24] Speaker 7: And also, once the mother died, it was very traumatic the way the father kind of kicked them out of the house. [02:02:30] Speaker 13: So after the mother dies, the father had had a mistress who was actually the wife of his brother. And he brought her from Hungary and married her. And told Susan that her sister was not welcome in the house. So Susan left the house as well. [02:02:48] Speaker 7: Now after you assessed Susan's history of traumatic incidents and traumatic risk factors, did you also give her a psychological test by the name of CAPS-5? [02:03:00] Speaker 13: So the CAPS-5 is a scale. It's not a test, but it's a structured clinical interview where you have to go through all the criteria for PTSD. Yes. [02:03:13] Speaker 7: And what were your conclusions regarding the CAPS-5? [02:03:16] Speaker 13: So she has enough symptoms of enough severity to warrant a PTSD diagnosis. [02:03:21] Speaker 7: And why is it important to do, not just speak to the individual itself, in diagnosing PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, why is it important to do testing as well? [02:03:33] Speaker 13: Well, obviously, in forensic context, individuals may have a motivation to not be honest, right? And they may have a motivation to exaggerate their symptoms. There's other individuals who might underrate their symptoms, underreport their symptoms. So when we assess PTSD, it's important to look at different sources of information. So I'm not just trusting what she's saying, I'm talking to Ellen, and I'm going to see if this is consistent with what Ellen is saying. I'm also going to see if there are records corroborating that. I'm also going to see if there is the possibility that she's exaggerating symptoms. And I'm also going to do objective testing. [02:04:15] Speaker 7: And these symptoms, based on the CAPS-5, lasted over 50 years? [02:04:20] Speaker 13: Yes, so she's indicating that she cannot pinpoint the moment in which these symptoms began, that she's always had these symptoms. But I did discuss, so there are different ways of assessing PTSD. One is, do you have the symptoms now, the active symptoms now? And there is another way in which I can look at the worst month. And what this will do is, it will give me a lifetime diagnosis. Does this person have PTSD? Is there a lifetime diagnosis? [02:04:51] Speaker 7: And she has a lifetime diagnosis? [02:04:53] Speaker 13: Yes. She indicated that the worst time was at around age 20. This is the first time that she's leaving her father. So the rapes stopped at age 20 and the beatings. She leaves because a friend says, let's go with me to California. And she goes there. And when she gets there, the friend changes her mind about living with Susan. And now Susan is alone in a hotel. And all these symptoms become unbearable for her. And she doesn't have a job. She uses work as a coping mechanism. She's been a very hard worker since age 14, right? So now she doesn't have a job. She doesn't have social support. And she can not sleep. She's experiencing flashbacks. She's experiencing nightmares. Okay. [02:05:40] Speaker 7: Did you also give another measure by the name of Trauma Systems Inventory? Yes. [02:05:47] Speaker 13: The Trauma Symptom Inventory 2 is a measure of trauma-related symptoms. Now, this test is really about present functioning. It's going to just tell me does the person within the last six months has experienced trauma-related symptoms. So it's not used to diagnose PTSD, but it's telling me these are potential symptoms for treatment. And it was a valid profile? [02:06:11] Speaker 7: It was a valid profile. [02:06:13] Speaker 13: She didn't exaggerate or report. She paid attention to the items. [02:06:17] Speaker 7: And what is the significance of the results? [02:06:20] Speaker 13: So, for the Trauma Symptom Inventory, what's significant about that is that she scored high. There are different factors, right? And one of these factors is what we call the trauma factor. And this factor will be more associated with PTSD-like symptoms, right? So she has significant scores in anxious arousal. That is like the fight-flight response, being on edge, being hyper-vigilant, anxiety, and also on these intrusive experiences. So this is part of PTSD where the person is thinking these memories. They don't want to bring these memories to mind, but they're very intrusive. The person may have flashbacks where they get confused as to what's, you know, am I believing the trauma? She also has significant scores in defensive avoidance, and that is the idea of I'm going to defend against these feelings by suppressing them. And then she has some elevations that even though they're not clinically significant, they could be a source of a target for treatment because they are more than average. [02:07:32] Speaker 7: And were all the results from the TSI-2 consistent with someone who has post-traumatic stress disorder? [02:07:44] Speaker 13: All of those symptoms were, okay, just in the sense that she scored high on this trauma factor, dissociation, depression, hyper-arousal, intrusive thoughts, and effects of avoidance. These are trauma symptoms. [02:07:59] Speaker 7: Now, you talked about individuals sometime faking symptoms, if you will. Is that called malingering? Yes. [02:08:06] Speaker 13: When we create symptoms that are not there, we exaggerate symptoms. [02:08:10] Speaker 7: And in the forensic setting, like we're in right now, is it important to test for malingering, to make sure that someone's not lying to you, basically? Correct. Or exaggerating symptoms? [02:08:19] Speaker 13: Correct. [02:08:20] Speaker 7: And did you assess malingering for Susan? I did. And what were the results of Susan, whether she was malingering or not, based on the testing? [02:08:28] Speaker 13: Yes, so there's different ways. One is to look at the clinical interview, right? And to see if her symptoms of PTSD are exaggerated. For example, someone who scores every single item in the CAPS-5, that's rare. It's rare that somebody will have every single symptom of PTSD, and that it will be super extreme, right? So she didn't do that. She talked about things not being there, and she said, "Absolutely, that's not me." So it's not like she's going to go out of her way to endorse every single symptom. So that's one thing that we're going to look at. We're going to look at consistency in terms of, like, the stories and things like that. Also, within the trauma symptom inventory, there is a scale that measures overreporting. So people who are disclosing more symptoms of trauma than even people with trauma don't disclose. She had a valid profile there. And then there is the MENT, the Morales Emotional Numbing Test for PTSD. And this is a stand-alone test of feigning. It's a performance test. And what we do is we tell individuals, people with PTSD perform in a certain manner. And then we give the test. And the test is very easy. But the person might think that it's hard for people with PTSD. So we see how they do. So if they do really bad in these very easy tasks, we know that they are not responding in an honest manner. That they're trying to manipulate some information. [02:09:55] Speaker 7: And she did just fine. She did fine. [02:09:57] Speaker 13: She didn't. The test doesn't indicate any deception. [02:10:00] Speaker 7: Which means, based on a psychologist, that she's not malignant. Yes. [02:10:04] Speaker 13: She didn't exaggerate any symptoms. [02:10:06] Speaker 7: Now, you spoke to some friends of Susan, right? Yes. Okay. And I'm not going to ask specifically what they told you. But what was, you know, as short as you can put it. Yes. What was significant in your dealings with Susan's friends? [02:10:21] Speaker 13: One thing that was very interesting is that Susan, for one of them, I think, is Crystal. They have been friends maybe since 2013. That's a long time. Susan cooked for her wedding. There is a whole closeness. She drove her to see her family. And there is very little she knows about Susan. About her childhood. What worries her. I spoke to the pastor, Pastor Shannon. And the pastor indicated that Susan had a servant's heart. They all describe Susan as not aggressive. Good with kids. Getting along with people. But they, but Susan is a mystery to them. They cannot tell me the first thing about her childhood. How was her childhood? And they said that Susan would never discuss being upset. The most she told them was she was aggravated. And this is kind of like the way Susan talks and her sister talk. They're, they're rough. They're matter of fact. But they don't discuss feelings. So that was very significant feeling. [02:11:17] Speaker 7: Now, you spoke to Ellen at length. Yes. And it's your understanding that she's been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder as well. Yes. Do they have a similar affect? The way they speak about things. The way they discuss their childhood. Things of that nature. [02:11:30] Speaker 13: Yes. Sometimes they will laugh about bad things that happen to them in a nervous way. They both, they have a very abrasive way of speaking. Right? They don't sugarcoat things. Right? They will say, oh, this munchkin. Or like they will use those names. Right? And it is very interesting that they both talk like that. And you have to remember that they were brought up by a very abusive father who called them names. And this is kind of like their attitude can be rough around the edges in the way they talk about themselves, they describe themselves, their own pain. There is sometimes an emotional disconnect. But they both care deeply about people. It's just like the way they talk, they have difficulty regulating that sometimes. [02:12:17] Speaker 7: Now, specifically to the incident. What did Susan tell you about her functioning during the 18 months or so before her arrest? [02:12:28] Speaker 13: Susan indicated that what came up the most is her being unsafe, her being afraid. It's interesting as well because she talks about the children of the victim. Right? And she talks about being afraid of them or engaging in these arguments with them. Right? So she's saying that they were coming to her window, that they were screaming, and that she was being triggered. And Ellen remembers Susan telling her this. I'm being triggered. But not explaining, not going in depth as to what that was. You know? [02:13:04] Speaker 7: Now, in regard to someone that has post-traumatic stress, or you diagnosed Susan with post-traumatic stress? Correct. So, why would things that for some people find insignificant, why would that, things like what Susan was saying triggered her, why would that trigger her? [02:13:21] Speaker 13: So Susan actually told the police when she was arrested that when the children were making noise, she was thinking of her friend, Colina, who was murdered. And even though she never heard her scream, she could imagine that. And Colina kept coming into her mind, right? So, for individuals with PTSD, when they encounter a reminder of the trauma, they might overreact, and they might feel in danger. So, one time she's in a place, and she sees a man with a kid. So she becomes triggered because she thinks of her father. And sometimes she cannot even tell why she's being triggered, you know? So she's in the safety of what she thinks of her home, and she's saying that the kids are coming up to her window and doing things. And she cannot explain that this is, she told the sister at one point, this is triggering, but this is not a story. She's telling everybody because she's very private. But she told me that she was becoming unsafe, that she felt her privacy was being invaded, because they were looking through the mailbox, that at some point she had to go to change her tire multiple times, because they put something on her tires, that they put marbles so she would fall. And you might think, well, you know, the marbles are there, not for her to fall. But someone who has this experience of being victimized might perceive aggression when there is no aggression, and when there is no intent. [02:14:47] Speaker 7: Did you find any documentation regarding Susan's functioning within three months of the incident? [02:14:53] Speaker 13: So there is a record. It happened at around three months before her arrest. I'm looking for it. So, yes, it happened on March 14, 2023, right? And she went into a tire place, a place thinking it was a tire place, but it was actually a parking lot, and the door locked. And the way she explained it to me is she felt that someone was going to rape her, even though there was nobody around. So she had this sense of someone is going to attack me and rape me, and then she ran her car against the fence to get out of the place. And at that point, somebody let her out, and then the police came and talked to her, and she explained and she said, I have PTSD. That was one of the things that she indicated. [02:15:59] Speaker 7: And that was two and a half months before the death of Ms. Owens? [02:16:03] Speaker 13: Correctly. [02:16:05] Speaker 7: And is that consistent with someone who has post-traumatic stress disorder? [02:16:09] Speaker 13: Yes, because she, even from the calm moment where she's talking to me, she's indicating, this is irrational. How come somebody's going to rape me if there is nobody around? But she felt this hyper-reactivity, this impulsivity, and that's what she wanted to escape. [02:16:26] Speaker 7: Did you ever speak with Susan about the incident? Yes. And what did she tell you? [02:16:31] Speaker 13: She indicated that she was afraid that someone was going to rape her, even though nobody was around and it was very, very rational. [02:16:38] Speaker 7: And we're talking about the incident two and a half months before? Yes. [02:16:41] Speaker 13: Okay. Ramming her car against the fence to get out. [02:16:44] Speaker 7: Now, Susan has received treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder and a prior diagnosis. [02:16:51] Speaker 13: She indicated that in 1984, she went to treatment somewhere up north, I think, New Jersey. And she doesn't remember whether, I mean, a friend told her you have symptoms that resemble PTSD. She went to get treatment. And the doctor that saw her said that she should write a letter to her father. And so she wasn't, and she couldn't afford the treatment. So like the combination of I'm not ready to do this and I cannot afford the treatment, she said that she didn't go back for more sessions. Or that the sessions didn't last. And then in 2018, she seeks help because she's working in the guest house. And then she's experiencing flashbacks. [02:17:38] Speaker 7: And in 2018, she was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, correct? Correct. And was that at the Associates for Evaluation and Therapy of Central Florida PA? [02:17:51] Speaker 13: Yes. [02:17:52] Speaker 7: Okay. And there's an actual diagnosis of that, right? [02:17:56] Speaker 13: Yes. So, yes. [02:17:58] Speaker 7: Where is the diagnosis? And I can show you what's been entered into evidence as defense exhibit one. [02:18:03] Speaker 13: Yes. Thank you. So, when you look at the bottom of this one, two, at the bottom of the third page, it says diagnosis F43.12, that is PTSD. That is PTSD. Yes. And in here, they mention problems with the siblings as well, her medical issues as well. And that the reason she's visiting or there is a handwritten note indicated that she was triggered three months ago by patient relating story of rape of family members. So, Susan was working in the guest house. She's working in the kitchen as a chef. And then people who are in this rehabilitation center are gathering around the kitchen and one of them is talking about being raped by a family member. And she had a flashback where she kind of lost contact with reality. And so, that was very distressing and she sought help. It indicates that she's having sleep problems. Yeah. [02:19:23] Speaker ?: Yeah. [02:19:24] Speaker 7: And I see there's a diagnosis, 543.12, PTSD chronic. Yes. And is that the diagnosis that you were speaking of before? Yes. [02:19:35] Speaker 13: So, sometimes in the old DSM, well, no, no. In the DSM, we would put these codes, right, that indicate the disorder. And this is done with the previous DSM, not with the current DSM. [02:19:50] Speaker 7: And it was PTSD chronic? Correct. [02:19:53] Speaker 13: Indicating that it had been present for a while. Okay. [02:19:56] Speaker 7: So, to conclude, what is your diagnosis of Susan Lawrence according to the DSM-5-TR? [02:20:15] Speaker 13: Post-traumatic stress disorder with panic attacks and dissociation. Okay. [02:20:19] Speaker 7: And we've already spoken about panic attacks and dissociation, correct? [02:20:22] Speaker 13: Yes. This is just to say that these are additional challenges within her diagnosis. [02:20:26] Speaker 7: In your opinion, was she impacted by her long history of trauma and family dysfunction? [02:20:31] Speaker 13: Yes. So, Ms. Lawrence has a long-standing history of psychological trauma and family dysfunction, neglect, psychological abuse, childhood adversities, and post-traumatic stress disorder and depression. She has difficulties with self-isolation. One of the things that happened to Susan is the unlived life. She indicated that she wanted to be with a man, have kids, and she's never been able to do that because she cannot stay in a relationship. And even when she had cancer, she ended up living the man she was with because before he left me, she said, right? So, her dysfunction is more of this lack of engagement in the relationships and self-isolation, which have increased her distress. So, she would have been affected by this PTSD. [02:21:25] Speaker 7: In your opinion, on June 2nd of 2023, when she shot Ms. Owens, was Susan's capacity to appreciate the criminal nature of the conduct or to conform that conduct to the requirements of the law substantially impaired? [02:21:43] Speaker 13: So, with the caveat that I have her narrative, right? That's what I have. It would be my opinion that, yes, that her ability to appreciate the criminality of her conduct or to conform her behavior will be substantially impaired because she's perceiving that her life is in danger. She's perceiving that the door, the locked door with the bolt, will not hold, and that Ms. Owens is going to victimize her. She describes shaking. She describes being overcome by fear. And in that moment, there is a lack of consideration for what's going to happen next. Her thoughts are very simplistic and focused on getting out and being on survival mode. [02:22:28] Speaker 7: Now, some may argue that Ms. Lawrence's actions on that day were an overreaction of what was occurring. Would her having post-traumatic stress disorder affect how she viewed and saw the event and any overreaction that she had? [02:22:46] Speaker 13: Yes, so definitely PTSD is going to rewire us, reshape the way in which we look at the world. If I get attacked after leaving this courtroom, I'm going to feel I am damaged goods. I don't have a place in this world. The world is dangerous. So she's experienced this since age 4 to 20 to later on different events. So she's going to be impaired in that sense. And there is a hyper-vigilance and there is a focus on threat with PTSD. She describes walking in the street and there was a gentleman who wanted to ask her out and she was running away from him because he's going to rape me. So there is once again this idea that even benevolent behaviors might be perceived as dangerous under stressful circumstances. [02:23:35] Speaker 7: Okay. Now, Judge Hodges has heard from three different friends of Ms. Lawrence today and they described her as a non-aggressive, very helpful, very kind, very giving, very loving person. How is it that a person can be described as that, having post-traumatic stress disorder, yet be capable of an overreaction like occurred on June 2, 2023? [02:24:08] Speaker 13: So one specific thing that I ask her friends is if they have ever seen Susan in a moment of danger or stress and they indicated no. She sees Pastor Channing at church. She sees her other friend in the context of safety. And Susan's behavior on this day is more a contextual -- so when we look at violence and when we look at how violence happens, violence is very contextual, right? It's something that happens in one moment in time. Susan during moments of stress and danger tends to freeze sometimes, right? So when her father was raping her, when her brother was abusing her, when the landlord was abusing her, she would freeze. When she was beat up by her boyfriend, she froze and then left. And this freezing is this way of saying there is no escape. If I cannot fight and I cannot fly, I freeze, right? And that has evolutionary use. Then we see Susan in a situation where she cannot freeze, which she thinks she's going to get raped three months or two and a half months before. She escapes, right? So she's not really staying in the situation, you know? In this situation, sometimes when the situation is highly volatile, highly dangerous, the person doesn't freeze, fights, especially when there is no escape. And that could be the reason why. They've never seen her under conditions of stress. [02:25:42] Speaker 7: And did Susan indicate to you that on the Dane question she felt that she could not escape, that she could not leave the situation? [02:25:49] Speaker 13: She indicated she felt trapped. She said just the way she described her thoughts. Remember, like when we experience psychological trauma for a person with PTSD, that part of the breakdown things and reasons and it's like, hey, this is not as dangerous, like assess, it assesses the situation, goes offline. So her thoughts are very simplistic. When she describes her thoughts to the police, they don't have this narrative component. It's like, get out, get out, leave me alone, go away. So like these are very simplistic thoughts, which are very consistent with somebody under a stressful situation who has PTSD. [02:26:24] Speaker 7: Now, obviously PTSD is a mental disorder. Yes. Does Susan require specialized treatment for PTSD? [02:26:32] Speaker 13: Yes. So individuals with PTSD benefit from treatment, right? And there are many lines of treatment. But I will say one of the first lines is anti-depressants. I'm not a psychiatrist, but that's part of that. But that medication is an agent to psychological treatment. When an individual has experienced the severe pervasive trauma that she has experienced of being raped for many years, during her formative years, this requires something more. So usually we see with PTSD that people will expose the person to trauma, right? If you have a car accident, you go to a therapist, they might put you in a car and drive, right? But someone who has been the victim of sexual abuse like this will require someone kind, patient, and well-trained to identify all the issues that need development within her. So it's a specialized treatment. [02:27:28] Speaker 7: Okay. And could Susan benefit from treatment? [02:27:34] Speaker 13: Yes. Susan doesn't have any condition that would keep her from benefiting from treatment. Intellectually, she can benefit from treatment. She says that she wants to experience treatment, right? Treatment has not been very helpful in the past, in part because of these trauma symptoms, of this idea that I cannot trust my therapist. She doesn't trust providers in the jail. So that's an issue there. But yes, she can benefit from treatment. And she can recover. And she can recover. [02:28:06] Speaker 7: Yes. With the right treatment. [02:28:08] Speaker 13: Correct. [02:28:09] Speaker 7: Was Susan's behavior and actions tonight in question consistent with someone suffering from PTSD? [02:28:15] Speaker 13: Yes. So, like, with her narrative, right? She's indicating that she was shaking and that would be consistent with a body that is full of stress hormones, adrenaline. The simplistic thoughts that she's describing of just get out. The idea that she believed my life is in danger and the door will not hold. That was a big thought in her mind. That the victim was going to come through the door. [02:28:42] Speaker 7: And this narrative isn't just what she told you. It's also what she told law enforcement as well? [02:28:47] Speaker 13: Yeah, it's being consistent. This is what she told me and what she told law enforcement as well. [02:28:52] Speaker 7: Are all the opinions that you have shared with us today with a reasonable degree of psychological and trauma-based certainty? Yes. Your Honor, I have no further questions. [02:29:01] Speaker ?: Mr. Smith? [02:29:02] Speaker 7: Yes, Your Honor. [02:29:14] Speaker 2: Good afternoon, Dr. Castillo. [02:29:15] Speaker 13: Good afternoon. [02:29:16] Speaker 2: How many hours have you worked in this case? [02:29:24] Speaker 13: 80 hours, 0.3. [02:29:27] Speaker 2: That was 43? [02:29:28] Speaker 13: 80.3. Oh, 80.3. Counting travel and all that. [02:29:32] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. And you've been retained by a defense counsel in this case, correct? [02:29:36] Speaker 13: Yes. [02:29:37] Speaker 2: How much are you charging per hour in this case? 250. All right. So you've worked 83 hours charging $250 an hour? [02:29:45] Speaker 13: No, I charge $100 for travel. So it's, I have made a total of $16,490. [02:29:51] Speaker 2: Okay. So total in this case, you were charging over $60,000. [02:29:56] Speaker 13: Yes, $60,000. [02:29:57] Speaker ?: Yes, $60,000, yes. [02:29:57] Speaker 13: Thank you. [02:29:58] Speaker 2: Okay. You're saying $16,000 or $16,000? [02:30:00] Speaker 13: $16,000. [02:30:01] Speaker 2: $16,000. $16,000. Oh, $16,000. [02:30:04] Speaker 13: Oh, $16,000. [02:30:05] Speaker 2: $16,000. [02:30:06] Speaker 13: $16,000. [02:30:07] Speaker ?: All right. [02:30:08] Speaker 2: Now, you would agree that traumatic events are different than everyday stressors? Yes. And would you agree that a child experiencing their mother dying from a gunshot wound would be a traumatic event? Correct. And that traumatic event could affect that child? Correct. It could affect their children in the future? Correct. What were the dates that you saw the defendant in this case, Ms. Lorenz, if you can remember? [02:30:40] Speaker 13: Uh, January, February, and May. [02:30:44] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:30:45] Speaker 2: And so this crime happened in 2023, but you did not see her until 2024? Correct. I believe you've stated here that Ms. Lorenz is a private person. She's not wanting to talk about private matters to people, correct? Correct. Would you agree that someone not wanting to talk about matters would be a problem for any treatment for that person? [02:31:13] Speaker 13: It is a barrier to treatment, yes. [02:31:16] Speaker 2: And would you also agree that not trusting doctors or healthcare providers would be a barrier for treatment? [02:31:21] Speaker 13: It can be, yes. That's why I would expect that doctors have the clinical skills to go through that. [02:31:28] Speaker 2: And would you agree that in this case, the defendant, Ms. Lorenz, in this situation in her neighborhood, that she engaged in arguments with children? Yes. She did not avoid children or the problems in the neighborhood. [02:31:43] Speaker 13: Did she avoid problems? She indicated that there were times when she would be home trying to avoid problems in the neighborhood, yes. [02:31:53] Speaker 2: But there were also times you would agree that she engaged with people in the neighborhood about the issues? [02:31:58] Speaker 13: Yes. [02:31:59] Speaker 2: And you talked about an incident that happened a couple of months before this incident where the defendant drove through a fence and she told someone that she was triggered because she thought she would be raped, correct? Yes. Are you familiar with the context of that statement of when she made that and who she made that to? [02:32:18] Speaker 13: Yes. I think somebody went to her house and she made that statement. [02:32:24] Speaker 2: Would you agree that that context of that statement was made by the defendant while the Marion County Sheriff's Office was investigating a criminal mischief incident? [02:32:35] Speaker 13: Yes. [02:32:36] Speaker ?: Yes. Yes. Yes. [02:32:39] Speaker 2: And the defendant's statements to you played a significant role in your diagnosis? [02:32:53] Speaker 13: Correct. [02:32:54] Speaker 2: And you interviewed the defendant while she was in the Marion County Jail? [02:32:58] Speaker 13: Yes. [02:32:59] Speaker 2: And you performed a trauma symptom inventory test upon the defendant while she was in the jail? Yes. Yes. Would you agree that that test is not designed specifically for an incarceration setting? [02:33:12] Speaker 13: So the test was not specifically designed for incarcerated but it can be given to anybody who's experiencing trauma symptoms. [02:33:21] Speaker 2: Yes ma'am. [02:33:22] Speaker 13: Yes. [02:33:23] Speaker 2: Would you agree that you were unable to say whether the defendant's responses in that test were a result of being incarcerated or as a result of the trauma in her life? [02:33:33] Speaker 13: Yes. So the trauma symptom inventory is about how the person is functioning now within the last six months. It's not tied to any traumatic incident. So it's just what this person is experiencing now. Yes. [02:33:45] Speaker 2: And by the time you'd seen her she'd been in the jail for about six months. Would you agree? [02:33:49] Speaker 13: I don't know how long but she had been there a while. Yes. [02:33:53] Speaker 2: And so there's no way to conclusively exclude what she's been experiencing in jail when she's responding to your questions. [02:33:58] Speaker 13: Yeah. Like I said these are not tied to any specific event. [02:34:02] Speaker 2: Yes ma'am. And would you agree that sometimes during the interviews the defendant gave vague and superficial information? [02:34:08] Speaker 13: Most of the superficial information though was about her relationship with men and things like that. So she was cooperative but there is a big part of being a victim of childhood abuse and avoiding the pain is part of the PTSD. But yes there were times in which she was vague, more vague. [02:34:28] Speaker 2: Yes ma'am. And you would also agree that you did not explore the actual shooting with the defendant? [02:34:36] Speaker ?: Correctly. [02:34:37] Speaker 13: Yeah. [02:34:38] Speaker 2: You did not? No. [02:34:40] Speaker 13: I mean she talked about the shooting. I didn't go play by play but she did talk about it. [02:34:47] Speaker 2: But you did not explore the actual shooting with the defendant? Correct. All right. And you did not ask the defendant whether her intrusion symptoms occurred at the time of the shooting, did you? Correct. Now I would also point out that the defendant had no evidence of hallucinations, correct? Oh, no. [02:35:14] Speaker 13: No hallucinations. She didn't report that. [02:35:16] Speaker 2: And there was no evidence of delusions, correct? Correct. And the defendant did not endorse a history of psychosis? Correct. And I believe you noted while depression was elevated it was not to a point of significance in your opinion, correct? Depression now, being in jail. [02:35:33] Speaker 13: Yes. Current. [02:35:35] Speaker 2: And you also mentioned that the dissociation was elevated but not to a point of being clinically elevated. Would you agree? [02:35:46] Speaker 13: The dissociation? No. Not the dissociation as a child. Yes. [02:35:50] Speaker 2: But when you were talking to her? Yes. [02:35:52] Speaker 13: But in the moment that I was talking to her she was not significantly depressed and she didn't have significant dissociation according to the trauma syndrome. Right. [02:36:01] Speaker 2: And you would agree that the defendant was stable when you saw her? [02:36:04] Speaker 13: Yes. [02:36:05] Speaker 2: And you reviewed medical records from the Marion County Jail, correct? [02:36:10] Speaker 13: Yes. [02:36:11] Speaker 2: And the defendant was not diagnosed with PTSD in the Marion County Jail records, was she? [02:36:16] Speaker 13: In the Marion County Jail, no, she was diagnosed with adjustment disorder, I think with anxiety and generalized anxiety disorder. But I have, I say this with the caveat that in jail people don't get an in-depth trauma assessment. And she did report trauma symptoms but they didn't diagnose. [02:36:33] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. Now, the defendant told you that she thinks she was diagnosed with PTSD in the past. [02:36:41] Speaker 13: Yes. [02:36:42] Speaker 2: And there was talk about a situation in 1984 but you have no records of a prior diagnosis of PTSD in 1984. [02:36:52] Speaker 13: No, she couldn't really remember the name of the doctor and she was not sure whether she had been diagnosed. I don't think she knew that she had been diagnosed in 2018 either. She said I might have been diagnosed. But the record indicates that she was diagnosed in 2018. But she didn't really know? She didn't know. She wasn't sure. [02:37:11] Speaker 2: Now, the psychological records that you have from 2018 which defense counsel has admitted into evidence, I believe it's defense one. You would agree that those are only four pages. Correct. That record does not include any treatment notes. Correct. And you would also agree that you've been provided records from the defendant's primary care physician. Yes. And those records were, I believe, from 2018 to 2023. Correct. And there was nothing of significance regarding PTSD in your review of those. [02:37:45] Speaker 13: No, I think they mentioned that she, I mean, general physicians don't tend to look for PTSD. This is, they're not that nuanced. There might have been mention of Paxil, which she under, she received Paxil after her mother died because she had anxiety and depression and she was prescribed that. But then she started having suicidal thoughts and she stopped that. But there is no mention of PTSD in the medical records. [02:38:12] Speaker 2: But there is indication that she was taking depression medication at some point but then just stopped taking it. [02:38:17] Speaker 13: She indicated that that particular medication increased her suicidal thoughts. And at that time what she was experiencing was panic attacks and that was not, you know, treated. [02:38:27] Speaker 2: And you stated that the defendant was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder with dissociation of panic attacks, correct? Yes. And you reviewed the defendant's Marion County jail records, correct? Yes. And in those records did you review that it was noted that I believe in December of 2023 that the defendant denied panic attacks? [02:38:46] Speaker 13: Yes, but I'm not sure whether that means she's denying them now. [02:38:51] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [02:38:52] Speaker 13: Because I think there is even a point in her arrest when she's experiencing chest pains and she's experiencing anxiety. [02:38:58] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. Now, you would agree that the defendant reported that her worst period of PTSD was when she was 20 years old. [02:39:06] Speaker 13: Correct. [02:39:07] Speaker 2: And the defendant I believe is 60 years old now. Correct. So her worst period of PTSD was over 40 years ago. [02:39:13] Speaker 13: Correct, but it's been a chronic condition. [02:39:15] Speaker 2: And you would agree that in regards to treatment, in the past since, we'll say since she's 20, she's 40 years old, you only have two indications of any attempt of actual treatment? [02:39:28] Speaker 13: Yes, she has difficulty trusting providers. That's part of the complex trauma. [02:39:34] Speaker 2: Yes, which would be… Yes, which would be… Yes, ma'am. [02:39:37] Speaker ?: Yes, ma'am. [02:39:38] Speaker 2: And in 2018, the defendant said she was triggered by someone telling her about a story of rape, correct? Correct. And you would agree that rape was not an issue at all in this case? [02:39:56] Speaker 13: Well… [02:39:57] Speaker 2: In regards to the factual situation that was facing the defendant. [02:40:02] Speaker 13: So for someone with PTSD to overreact, it doesn't have to follow exactly what happened to them. The situation is reminiscent, though, in the sense that she thought she was going to get killed, beat up, and that's exactly what she thought during her rape. So rape and physical abuse is her main trauma. [02:40:19] Speaker 2: Now in 2018, you received some records, there were four pages, but again, there's really no record of any treatment in those records, is there? [02:40:28] Speaker 13: No, she indicated she went a couple of times, there was no motion engagement there. [02:40:33] Speaker 2: The defendant said she didn't go very long. [02:40:35] Speaker 13: She didn't go very long. [02:40:36] Speaker 2: So again, another instance where the defendant was not amenable to treatment, we would say. [02:40:40] Speaker 13: I wouldn't say she was not amenable to treatment. I said there is a lot of lack of training and lack of nuance when therapists look for trauma assessment and treatment. Yes, ma'am. [02:40:53] Speaker 2: Now you would agree that there is mental health treatment available to prisoners in the Department of Corrections? [02:40:59] Speaker 13: In my experience, in the jail, there is not that much treatment going on. Right now, she's getting medication for anxiety, she's taking a boost part, and that wouldn't even be the first line of treatment for PTSD. [02:41:14] Speaker 2: But in the Department of Corrections, they're required, the department that is, to provide mental health service to inmates. [02:41:20] Speaker 13: Oh, so like in the Department of Corrections? Yes, ma'am. Yes, in prison, there is some treatment, yes. [02:41:25] Speaker 2: Yes, okay. [02:41:26] Speaker 13: I cannot attest to how good it is, but yes. [02:41:28] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. But you would agree that prisons are required that an inmate's, that mental and psychological problems must be diagnosed and treated whenever possible in prison. Correct. [02:41:39] Speaker 13: But I do have a lot of experience working in prisons, and I know that it doesn't always happen like that. [02:41:44] Speaker 2: Yes, but the prisons are required. They are required, yes. Yes, and so there is, you would agree that there is access to mental health treatment for inmates who have psychological problems. [02:41:55] Speaker 13: Correct. [02:42:01] Speaker 2: And you would agree that the defendant in this case, according to your diagnosis, that PTSD is affected her life by unwanted memories? Yes. Unpleasant dreams? Yes. And avoiding intimacy and avoiding relationships? [02:42:20] Speaker 13: Yes. [02:42:21] Speaker 2: And as part of the criteria for examining PTSD, would you agree that you have to examine whether PTSD has caused clinically significant distress or impairment in an individual's social, occupational or other area of functioning? Correct. [02:42:43] Speaker 13: Correct. [02:42:44] Speaker 2: And that is something that you did in this case, correct? [02:42:46] Speaker 13: I did, yes. [02:42:47] Speaker 2: Yes. And you would agree that the main area of the defendant's life that has been affected is her relationships? [02:42:53] Speaker 13: Well, there are two things. The relationships have been affected because she hasn't been able to form a relationship and have a family or have a deeply intimate relationship with her friends and seek the support. But also there is that significant distress that she has mask. So she has the distress, which is part of that, and she has a disturbance in her relationships. [02:43:20] Speaker 2: But in reporting to you, you would agree that the defendant's primary concern was that because of PTSD she missed out on things like having a husband or having a family. Would you agree? [02:43:30] Speaker 13: And having friends that can support you, because the best way for us to really regulate or distress is talk to a friend, but she hasn't been able to open up even to friends with whom she feels safe. [02:43:41] Speaker 2: And you would agree that any treatment of PTSD would primarily help the defendant improve and foster her close relationships? [02:43:49] Speaker 13: It would do that, in part, yes. Thank you. [02:43:52] Speaker 2: And despite PTSD the defendant has gone through, and the stuff that the defendant has reported that she has gone through, she's been able to obtain multiple educational degrees. You would agree with that? [02:44:04] Speaker 13: Yes, people with PTSD can obtain educational degrees. [02:44:07] Speaker 2: And she's been able to work in various fields. Correct. And we talked about this earlier, that she does not have a problem avoiding or engaging, or she does not have a problem engaging people in public. [02:44:20] Speaker 13: That kind of depends, that kind of depends on how her symptoms are at the time, yes. [02:44:30] Speaker 2: Do you agree, based on what you reviewed in this case, that she had no problem engaging people in the neighborhood about issues? [02:44:36] Speaker 13: She engaged people, she indicated that she was seeking support, that she didn't get support, she was trying to talk to the police. So there were, like, things that she did to solve the situation, according to what she told me. Yes. [02:44:50] Speaker ?: Yes. [02:44:51] Speaker 2: Thank you. Your Honor, if I may just have one moment. Yes, sir. [02:45:06] Speaker ?: Thank you. [02:45:36] Speaker 2: Now, Dr. Castillo, you were asked about an opinion as to whether the defendant's capacity to understand what was going on the night of the incident was at all affected by PTSD. And you provided an answer, but would you agree that back in your deposition in June of 2024, you were asked if you have any opinions to whether or not capacity of the defendant to understand what was going on the night was affected by her PTSD, and you answered no. [02:46:05] Speaker 13: So I indicated that she didn't have difficulty understanding what was going on. What she had difficulty was appreciating the criminality of what was going on, considering her options, and she couldn't conform her behavior to the requirements of the law. [02:46:24] Speaker 2: But you would agree that the defendant had no problem understanding what was going on, correct? [02:46:28] Speaker 13: Yes, there is a difference, though. I mean, she was not, she didn't have insanity, or she was not psychotic, but there is a way in which PTSD can overwhelm and override your ability to think and consider options. [02:46:42] Speaker 2: So, you would agree that the defendant, or, you would agree that the defendant, when she talked to 911 calls in this case, or even talked to you, that she had, she was able to recount what happened? [02:46:53] Speaker 13: Yes, she knew what happened, yes. [02:46:55] Speaker 2: And you would agree that the defendant, during her interview, she would mention a time where she went over to actually confront the victim in this case, Ms. Ajica, or A.J. Owens. Do you remember that? [02:47:12] Speaker 13: Could you remind me what time? [02:47:14] Speaker 2: If there's a situation where Ms. Ajica Owens was saying something about the defendant, and the defendant actually goes over to confront Ms. Ajica Owens by what was said? [02:47:25] Speaker 13: I don't quite remember. It is possible. They have various interactions. [02:47:28] Speaker 2: But you would agree that if someone who has PTSD, who may want to avoid the situation, actually going over to someone and confronting someone about an issue would be inconsistent with avoidance behavior? [02:47:38] Speaker 13: Well, you know, a person can approach somebody that they, and, and, okay, there is a time in which Ms. Lawrence says that Ms. Owens threw a sign at her, and she was really surprised that this happened. It's not like she thought this person was dangerous all the time, or she avoided her all the time. It's not like that. When she talks about avoiding, it's the thoughts of her father beating her and raping her, and those kind of situations. But with Ms. Owens, there have been interactions where she has not avoided her. It was more about she feeling the banging on the door, the walls, like, shaking, and she feeling like she's going to kill me. It's that moment. [02:48:19] Speaker 2: You have further questions here? You can redirect. Briefly, girl. [02:48:30] Speaker 7: Dr. Castillo, Mr. Smith was asking you about you asking Ms. Lawrence in regard to her thoughts and feelings the day of the incident. You did speak to speak with Ms. Lawrence a little bit about that, correct? [02:48:45] Speaker 13: Yes. I mean, I didn't explore play by play, what are you thinking, and all of that, but she did talk about what happened the day, yes, and what was going through my mind. [02:48:53] Speaker 7: But specifically, you reviewed the two different statements that she gave to law enforcement, the day of the incident, and then a couple days after the incident, right? [02:49:01] Speaker 13: I reviewed all the statements she gave to the police, yes. [02:49:03] Speaker 7: And you relied on that for some of your opinions in regard to what she was feeling, what she was fearing, what she was experiencing when Ms. Owens was pounding on that door, right? [02:49:16] Speaker 13: Correct. Correct. [02:49:16] Speaker 7: Mr. Smith was asking you about specifically the Marion County jail records since Ms. Lawrence was, has been incarcerated since June of 2023, and you indicated to him that she did, she has reported trauma symptoms. Correct. However, the jail has not done a full evaluation for trauma. [02:49:51] Speaker 13: Correct. She reported flashbacks, hyperarousal, nightmares, all of these trauma symptoms and a trauma history. [02:49:58] Speaker 7: But no full analysis has been done? [02:50:00] Speaker 13: No full analysis has been done. [02:50:01] Speaker 7: Mr. Smith was asking you about the medical records specifically, and there not being any mention of trauma indicators or trauma symptoms in her medical records. Correct. Now, do the regular physicians, the ones that look at, you know, if your foot's broken or if you're having issues with your gastric bypass surgery, et cetera, like Ms. Lawrence went to see physicians for treatment, do they typically assess for PTSD, for trauma-based situations, for trauma-based mental health disorders? No. In my experience, medical doctors don't really routinely assess for psychological trauma. [02:50:41] Speaker 13: And you mentioned that the PTSD that Ms. Lawrence has is chronic. [02:50:44] Speaker 7: And you mentioned that the PTSD that Ms. Lawrence has is chronic. [02:50:50] Speaker 13: She has chronic PTSD. She has experienced the symptoms since age four. [02:50:54] Speaker 7: You also mentioned that Mr. Smith was asking you questions about Ms. Lawrence and how she has had problems trusting providers. Correct. Is that consistent with someone that has post-traumatic stress disorder? [02:51:11] Speaker 13: Yes. So, when I conduct a psychotherapy with survivors of abuse, part of the challenge is to talk to them in a way that decreases their defensiveness, because this is a natural process. It's almost like trying to save somebody who's drowning, but the person is trying to hold on to that defensiveness, which is the lifesaver, because that's what they know. So, what has helped her survive is to isolate herself and not let people hurt her. So, as a treatment provider, I know that individuals with childhood trauma can be difficult patients. And that's why we need to have those skills and that training to be able to break through that. [02:51:52] Speaker 7: And you have reviewed many, many different records from the Department of Corrections throughout your career? [02:51:59] Speaker 13: Correct. [02:52:00] Speaker 7: On many different individuals? Correct. Is it your opinion, based on your specialization in trauma, that the Department of Corrections does a good job of dealing, evaluating, and treating individuals that have trauma-based disorders, just like Ms. Lawrence has? [02:52:15] Speaker 13: No. I was also the chief psychologist in the Miami-Dade County Jails, and we dealt with a lot of, like, standards for prisons. And no, most of the time they're talking to nurses. They're not receiving trauma-specific treatment, and it's very hard to get this kind of treatment, even in the community, if you don't go to a place that specializes on complex trauma and understands what they go through developmentally. [02:52:44] Speaker 7: And Mr. Smith was asking you, in regard to what you testified to in your deposition, in regard to Ms. Lawrence's understanding of what was going on. Correct. What is the difference, specifically, between understand the right and wrong, et cetera, and specifically, Susan's capacity to appreciate the criminal nature of the conduct, or to conform that conduct to the requirements of the law, substantially impaired at the time of the offense? [02:53:12] Speaker 13: So understanding is about knowing, right? Understanding is about, do I know that what I did is right or wrong? And this is a criminal responsibility question for a sanity defense, right? Appreciating the criminality of your conduct is, in that moment, are you able to appreciate, assess correctly what's going on? And that part of the brain that assesses that would be impaired in PTSD, that ability, you are overcome by fear, fear for your life. There is a heightened sense of being in danger and being unsafe, and you're about to be killed. So in that moment, all that consideration goes out the window. You're not thinking about those things. [02:53:59] Speaker 7: And all the trauma that Susan has endured throughout her entire life that's been corroborated by records and individuals that you spoke with, those, all that trauma she experienced were things that were completely out of her control. Correct. [02:54:14] Speaker 13: Correct. So, yes, she didn't choose to be raped, beat up, she didn't choose to experience all these events. And she, this self-isolation is part of a consequence of that psychological trauma. Okay. [02:54:28] Speaker 7: Your Honor, I have no further questions. Thank you, Dr. President. Anything else? [02:54:31] Speaker ?: No, Your Honor. [02:54:32] Speaker 6: All right. Thank you very much, ma'am. Thank you. Thank you very much, ma'am. Thank you. Any additional witnesses? [02:54:38] Speaker 3: No, Your Honor. Judge, I believe Ms. Lawrence would like to give a statement. [02:54:41] Speaker ?: Of course. Yes, ma'am. [02:55:02] Speaker 14: Good afternoon. [02:55:04] Speaker 6: Good afternoon. [02:55:05] Speaker 14: I'm making a statement so you understand my actions and my reasoning the night of the shooting. My medical disabilities, I've had 25 knee surgeries on my right knee. I ended up having multiple replacements and then a catastrophic failure due to an allergy. I went back to having another knee replacement and I was burned during surgery. And so I had gotten very ill and my knee literally goes backwards. I had a laminectomy of my lumbar spine from the accident in 2019. I was back ended at a stoplight and there was a horrible complication. My dura from my spinal cord actually healed onto my actual spine. So when they went to do the correction, give it a little more space, the dura tour, I was leaking cerebral spinal fluid and he had to do an actual spinal cord repair. They didn't know I thought I would walk again from that. I've also had left with nerve damage to my lower legs and feet and have diminished feeling and numbness. And I've fallen twice because of this. I fell the first time in 2019 and had sustained internal injuries. I had bruised my lung and I had gotten a ganglion cyst on my right wrist. The second fall was November 2022. I fell because I walked into a bathroom and the light was supposed to come on and it never came on. And there was a toilet paper roll with the actual cylinder inside. And so it rolled out from under my foot and I fell backwards and I had torn my rotator cuff and muscles in my left shoulder. The 2019 accident also impacted my cervical spine and I lost feeling in my hands and had to have therapy. I had horrible migraines, terrible neck pain. I was going through all of this. And so I also have cataracts in both eyes and the one on my left is progressing faster. So it looks like I'm going through Vaseline on a lens. And I have some heart issues and high blood pressure. And there's a reason why I'm telling you all this. I have a carpal tunnel in both hands and muscle loss and diminished gripping capabilities. The first time I encountered Ms. Owens was February of 2022. I was about seven weeks after the neck fusion and she basically attacked me. And she threw the sign at me and I thought, what is going on here? I didn't expect to be confronted like that. And I had a huge red scar on my neck at that point in time. And she's screaming at me and she keeps coming closer and closer and closer and I'm backing up, backing up. And then she's trying to rip the cell phone out of my hands. Finally, I had to say, you're trespassing, you really need to leave. And she picks up the sign and she says, what? This fucking trespassing sign and throws it at me. This is where she hit me. And I still have a red card before she hit me. I have never ever dealt with someone who was that violent that quickly. And so I was terrified of this woman, literally terrified. You know, I've never had anyone the first time I've met them throw something at me and get so physically abusive. You know, people are saying I wasn't afraid, I wasn't afraid, I was horrified. And when she was banging on that door, it was just so loud in the house. I could not hear what she was screaming. And then I found out the children who said they were right there actually were around the corner of the apartment, 100, over 100 feet away. How could they hear anything? So I don't understand. And the prosecutors knew the children lied. They found the children in the lies. They said I threw skates and I hit them. That never happened. The prosecutor knows that didn't happen. That's why the charges were dropped. I've just been flummoxed about this whole case. I don't understand. You know, I understand I have PTSD. This woman kept coming after me, kept coming after me. I had approached her because I was watering my plants. And she's going, oh, there's a crazy old white lady. And I'm like, you can't just go around saying someone's crazy. I mean, it was insanity. So I went to say something to her and she verbally attacked me again. She's like, you've been calling my kids racist names and stuff. And I said, no ma'am, I have not. And she kept getting angrier and angrier. The more I said no, the angrier she got. So finally I said, I was terrified. I mean, she went from a very relaxed position to a position here. I could see her neck veins starting to bulge. Her pulse is really getting, you know, fast. And I'm thinking, she's going to beat the hell out of me right here in the street. So I said, listen, I'm sorry. If that's what you think I said, I'm very sorry. You know, I don't mean to offend anybody. I didn't say it, but I'm sorry. I went to walk away and she's falling one foot behind me the whole time to my apartment until I slammed the door in the face. Again, never had anyone do anything that aberrant in my life. Like I said, it's been a nightmare. Then Detective Spitz says that Isaac had come, was one of the three children. I told him no. He still put it in the report that this child was there. The child was never there. I have never spoken in my life to Isaac. I just haven't. You know, I knew him by his association with his mother. I never spoke to the other little girl and never spoke to the little boy Titus. Israel, I did speak to. He has been unbelievably rude. And it was a few days before Christmas, 2022. And he was trespassing and I'm like, you need to leave, you're trespassing. And so he turns to me and he says, you're old, you're white, you're all alone. Nobody cares about you. You're worthless. And I'm like, oh my God. You know, I didn't expect this from a nine-year-old child. And so I finally said, you know what? We come into this world alone. We leave this world alone. Get used to being alone. And he left. And the next thing I know, she comes back. And she's screaming and banging on my door, banging on my door. I'm like, what in the world is going on? You can't talk to my child that way. I said, ma'am, you need to leave. And so she was banging and banging. She breaks the door frame. She broke it so much that she bent the actual strike plate. And I couldn't lock the door. And I couldn't open the door correctly. I was like, if she's going to do that to my door frame and break a metal piece, what is she going to do to me? I also have a, from that same fall when I was on the toilet paper, I have an aneurysm on my left kidney artery. I'm not supposed to be getting excited. I'm not supposed to have high blood pressure. This woman is terrorizing me. I mean, she is absolutely terrorizing me. If she hits me, she will kill me. Literally, she will kill me. I will bleed out internally. I will exsanguinate. So was I terrified? Absolutely. And just as far as the kids saying I said racial slurs to them, it never happened. I just never said them. I have never talked to London. I have never talked to Calix, Jareth, or I can't remember the kid's name, but Isaac was the other one. I have never spoken to him. Isaac, I knew. The other three, I would never have known. They even lived in my neighborhood. As far as the child, Israel's concerned, he said I called him a slave. I have never called anyone a slave in my own life. Not an adult, not a child, just something I wouldn't do. And to say that I called him the N-word is ridiculous. I've never called anyone the N-word. And I don't know where he's getting this from. I don't understand. I was married to a non-white man. He was actually Middle Eastern, brown skin. And someone had called him a sand nigger, but a camel jockey. And I was highly offended. And I would never do that to a child, ever. And I just sang professionally in New York. I did jazz and the blues. I sang for Charles Gamble, Ernie Susser. And I had voice coach Jim Gassett, who had people in Dreamgirls, Miss Saigon, My Miz. And I sang with Larry Woodard from the Metropolitan Opera. Larry is black. Charles is black. Our pianist was black. Most of the girls who sang with blues and did jazz were all black. I never had a problem with a black person in my life. This is not about race. And I actually love children. I have taught horseback riding lessons, dressage and hunter equitation. I have taught swimming at summer camp. I was a big sister for big brothers, big sisters. And I, you know, if it wasn't for having cancer, I had a uterine and ovarian cancer in my thirties. I would have had my children. And it's one of the reasons why I had issues with the gentleman I was with. Because I didn't want, he wanted to have another child. And I felt I was stopping him. That said, I would like to make a statement to AJ's mom and children. It is with heavy heart and great remorse I write this letter to you. First and foremost, I am so sorry that I took AJ's life. I never intended to kill her. The night I shot that gun, I was confused as to why she was screaming and pounding on my door. I had an idea that Israel told her I had hit him. I could not understand why she was so angry. And she truly scared me. Now that I know he told her I hit him. I am just profoundly sad. Not only did a mother die, but a daughter and a sister. I think of your family's loss. And know how hard it is to lose someone you love. Not being able to see that person. Not being able to see that person. Or just talk to that person. It's such an empty feeling. I am so happy that I could go back and change things so that she was still here. I would trade my life so that she could be here if it were possible. I know that you have all suffered from her loss. And I have prayed for you and your family during this time so that God could help you. Nothing I can do will change the outcome. I can only tell you I have cried and I feel horrible for my actions. Please accept my humble and sincere apology for this tragedy. [03:07:41] Speaker 1: Thank you. So defensive, anything else I'd like to add? [03:07:48] Speaker 3: Not for witnesses, Judge, no. [03:07:50] Speaker 1: Okay. Any arguments you'd like to make as to what the appropriate sentence should be? [03:07:54] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. Briefly. And I filed a motion for downward departure. Yes, sir. Have you seen it? Do you need a copy of it? [03:08:00] Speaker 1: I've read it. [03:08:01] Speaker 3: Thank you. Okay, so I'm just going to go down through the various grounds. And I think this would apply to paragraphs 3A, 3B, and 3E specifically. So just briefly, Judge, we heard from Dr. Castillo. I mean, obviously she testified that Susan Lawrence suffers from chronic PTSD. That's not related to substance abuse or addiction. And she's very amenable to treatment in regards to medication and therapy. Ms. Lawrence has had a hard life. And all the traumatic experiences that she has dealt with leading up to this incident affected her capacity. And her capacity to appreciate the criminal nature of her conduct due to the chronic PTSD. In regards to 3C, we heard testimony during the trial from the state's own witnesses that, you know, unfortunately, Ms. Owens did come to Susan Lawrence's home that night. And multiple state witnesses testified that she was banging on the door and the sliding glass door aggressively. Susan Lawrence has absolutely no prior criminal record whatsoever. And by all accounts from the witness testimony here today, she was a productive member of society and has been almost her entire life. She fired one single shot through a door. So is the defense's position that this was committed in an unsophisticated manner for which she has shown remorse. I think throughout the trial testimony regarding the letter that Susan had wrote to the children during her interviews, as well as the statement that she has made here today, I think it's clear that she shows remorse for what happened. Based on all the testimony, we would ask the court to depart from the sentencing guidelines and sentence her to, I think it's 538 days credit time served and probation so that she can get the mental health treatment that she needs as condition of that. That's all that I have, Judge. [03:09:53] Speaker 1: So your recommendation is probation? Yes, sir. Credit for 538 days? That's correct, Judge. Is there any, from the state, is there any mandatory minimum fines, fees, sentences that apply? No mandatory minimum, Judge. Okay. Yes, sir. [03:10:16] Speaker 2: Your honor, in regards to the downward departure arguments made by defense counsel 1, the claim that the defendant requires specialized treatment and is amenable to treatment, the state would argue that the defendant's PTSD diagnosis was not the cause of this shooting. We've heard testimony today and it seems that the area of the defendant's social functioning that's been affected by her reported PTSD the most is her ability to form close relationships. That's not the type of behavior involved in this case. The defendant's worst period of PTSD symptoms were when she was in her 20s. That's about 40 years ago. The defendant has only reported seeking help for PTSD twice in her life that we know of. One in the 80s and one approximately five years before this incident. But there's no treatment notes. Just a four page document is the only information we have. The defendant, we've heard that she's quit treatment. That she does distrust providers. That she has not stayed with any type of treatment that she's had in the past. And so there's not a reasonable possibility that such treatment will be successful. There's also mental health treatment that is accessible to inmates in the Department of Corrections. And when the defendant made her statement, she listed many things, many problems including 25 knee surgeries. A host of other medical problems, but I believe the only mention of PTSD was the statement that I know I have PTSD. So, Your Honor, again, PTSD was not the driving force in this case. It is not a basis for a downward departure. Number two, whether the defendant had the capacity to appreciate the criminal nature of the conduct involved in this case or confirm her conduct to the requirements of the law and whether or not that was substantially impaired. Your Honor, the defendant had the full capacity to understand what was going on in the night of the incident. The defendant took pictures. She took cell phone videos of what was going on leading up to the incident. She knew what was happening. She confronted the children about what was happening. She called 911 and talked about what was happening. She talked about her statements to police about what was going on in the apartment. About being in the bathroom, washing her hands, going to the kitchen, getting the gun, returning and shooting Ms. Owens through a locked door. When she claimed she all did it in self-defense, this was not an instance where her nature or her ability to appreciate the criminal nature of the conduct was impaired. Nor was her ability to conform her conduct to the requirements of law or impaired. Again, that is not a basis for downward departure in this case. As to the victim was an initiator willing to participate, aggressor or a provoker. Again, this is not a situation where Odjik Owens just walked over to the defendant's apartment for no reason. There's a history of the defendant having issues with the children and Ms. Owens responding to those issues. The night of this incident followed that exact same pattern and the course of events were set in place by the defendant engaging with the children. In the defendant's interview, she admitted she told the children on the night of the incident, "Go get your mom. I don't care." Again, Odjik Owens did not walk over to the defendant's apartment with a gun, a knife or a weapon. She was not trying to break into the house. She was not the initiator willing to participate, aggressor or provoke her. That is not a basis for a downward departure either. Was this offense committed in an unsophisticated manner, isolated into the defendant? The defendant has shown remorse. As to being sophisticated, I want to point out that the defendant had access to two guns that night, a .22 caliber and a .380 caliber. She went and retrieved the larger caliber weapon in this case, not the .22. She grabbed the .380. And this was not an incident where the defendant did not know what was going on and fired a bunch of sporadic shots in fear. The defendant fired one aimed shot at the door that struck and killed Ms. Owens. And again, while the shooting may have been a one-time event, again, this was a pattern of behavior involving the children and the defendant and Ms. Owens in this case. Your Honor, there is no basis for a downward departure in this case. The defendant has failed to prove that there is a valid legal ground to support a downward departure. Based on the totality of the circumstances, the court should not depart. The defendant took the life of Ajica Owens, a 35-year-old mother who was her neighbor. And Ms. Owens was a mother of four. The interests of justice are best served by sentencing the defendant to 30 years in the Department of Corrections, which is the maximum sentence in this case. So in addition to 30 years in the Department of Corrections, the state would also ask for $100 cost to prosecution. [03:15:30] Speaker 6: Anything else? [03:15:31] Speaker 3: No, Judge, I just need to make a couple of objections for the record. Sure. [03:15:35] Speaker 2: Yes. [03:15:36] Speaker 3: Okay. Judge, I just want to object to adding the 18 additional points on the score sheet for the firearm. Just in case this becomes an issue with the case law down the line. She's already charged and convicted of manslaughter by use of a firearm, which in and of itself enhances it to a first-degree felony. So adding the 18 additional points I think would be improper, so I wanted to object to that. And then also there was a PSI done in this case. [03:16:01] Speaker 1: Where is that? Where is that at? [03:16:03] Speaker 3: On the score sheet. I think it's on the second page. [03:16:05] Speaker 1: I believe so, Judge. [03:16:10] Speaker 2: What is the state's position on that 18 points? We believe that the 18 points is validly added. There was a finding made by the jury in this case, and I also have a case. I've given defense counsel a copy. I have a copy for the court. It's out of the 5th D.C.A., Lewis v. State, 952, Southern 2nd, 1271 from 2007, which I believe is on point in this case. It states that in a situation like this, 18 points for use of a firearm is allowed by an approach, Your Honor. [03:16:40] Speaker 1: Yes, sir. All right. That was for a manslaughter by firearm offense. I'm sorry, Your Honor. The offense in the case is a manslaughter by firearm? [03:17:14] Speaker 2: I believe so, Your Honor, because it was reclassified to a first-degree felony based on the evidence, the undisputed evidence that the defendant used a firearm. [03:17:23] Speaker 1: It says in the first line, it's manslaughter with a firearm. Oh, I'm sorry. It's a rhetorical question in that regard. Okay. I pause. What's this defense position on this case? [03:17:36] Speaker 3: Judge, I'll only note that if you look at on the second page, it's kind of close to the bottom in the paragraph where it says the court also noted that it's not essential that the weapon used during the charge felony is a firearm in order for reclassification under section 775.087 subsection 1. But in this case specifically, it's the firearm that requires it to be hands to a first-degree felony. So that's why I wanted to make that objection for the record. [03:18:03] Speaker 1: All right. I'll overrule the objection based on the Lewis case. [03:18:06] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. And then I believe there was a PSI done in this case. I think the court has a copy of it. Yes, ma'am. I'm not sure the court has looked at it and relied on it. The only objection I wanted to make to the PSI. There were a few letters that were included by the probation officer that were typed. They were not authenticated, not sworn. So I would just ask the court to disregard those letters. [03:18:27] Speaker 1: Okay. I would just -- it's in the PSI, whatever's in the PSI I've looked at. I don't generally look at letters and other things that are in PSI. I didn't put any weight on them in this case. The reason I do that is because I think I've pretty consistently, over the last 17 years, sentenced the same pretty much on the nature of the offense, whatever the person's prior record might be, and whatever I think they may do in the future. I think that's pretty much how I do it. If I start looking at letters from friends, well, the problem is that I may give a break to someone because they have friends, and someone who doesn't have friends doesn't get that break. So I simply never do that. I sentence everyone pretty much the same, I think, over that period of time. I do find that she -- the defense has produced evidence that she would qualify for departure because she has a -- for a mental disorder. I think they've -- I find they've proven she has PTSD, which is a recognized mental disorder, and is unrelated to substance abuse or addiction, and that she is amenable to treatment. So I do find they would -- she would qualify for that departure. On your second one, the capacity of the defendant to appreciate the criminal nature of the conduct, I don't find there was sufficient evidence to prove that departure. There was no indication that she ever did not understand what she was doing, or that shooting at a person would be against the law, or that she couldn't conform with the law in any way. As a matter of fact, she seemed to be, prior to the shooting, I mean, calling the police. So it didn't appear to be any situation where her capacity was impaired in any way. I don't find there's evidence that the victim was the initiator, willing participant, aggressor, or provoker of the incident. Otherwise, you know, although she was knocking loudly in this case, there was no real attempt to get in the residence. She kept asking her to come outside. So I don't find that that departure ground has been met. Despite the existence of one legitimate departure reason, even if she did qualify for the other two departure reasons, I would not depart in this case, because I find that the aggravated nature of this case, and this offense, and the harm inflicted outweighs the mitigation or the departure, when I weigh the totality of the whole case. So I find that the seriousness of the offense outweighs any legal departures that could be applied in this case. I'm primarily looking at the harm inflicted upon not only the victim who, of course, lost her life, but her family. She has four children, all of whom were present during the events or somewhere in the general vicinity, or at least home, certainly will have a traumatic impact on their lives for the rest of their lives. They'll live their whole lives without their mother, which I think is a very significant harm inflicted upon them by Ms. Lawrence. When I look at the nature of the offense, you know, I find that the shooting was completely unnecessary in this case. Ms. Lawrence was behind the door. The door was locked. She had already called law enforcement. They were en route. She knew they were en route. She was in a relatively safe position. For some reason, she went into her room and found a gun. She could have stayed in the room and put another locked door between her and Ms. Owens, but she came back out, put herself in front of the door. And at the time she fired the gun through the door, she was safe. Ms. Owens was simply, although she was clearly banging loudly and was probably very angry over the whole situation, it appears to be she was mostly demanding that Ms. Lawrence come outside, which would indicate she had no indication of coming inside the house. So when Ms. Lawrence fired the gun through the door, she did so knowing a person was directly on the other side of the door. And she knew that person wasn't a burglar. She wasn't a robber. She wasn't a rapist. She knew she was probably upset about the interaction with the kids, but she had arguments with her before and no real harm came other than I guess a sign was thrown at her, a paper sign. And that's when she decided to shoot. I find that the shooting, when I, when I listened to every aspect of the trial and every aspect of sentencing here, you know, it's, um, the facts don't rise to a murder charge, but they are very aggravated manslaughter. Um, because this case, it was, the shooting was based, I find more on anger than fear. I think that's pretty well established in this case. So when I weigh it out, and believe me, I find that, you know, she's a victim of child sex abuse was a significant mitigating factor. Um, and she has no criminal record, which is also, uh, a significant factor. However, we also have a tremendous harm inflicted upon this family and the victim's family. So what I'm going to do in this case is, or is she being adjudicated guilty of manslaughter with a firearm or serve 25 years in Department of Corrections. Is credit for 538 days, $100 cost of prosecution, $100 fine, court cost. Good luck to you, ma'am. You have 30 days to appeal. Is the defense requesting the appointment of public defender for purposes of appeal? Yes, sir. [03:25:21] Speaker 3: Just a few more things I want to put on the record. Um, there was never an offer, um, by the state. The state had asked us to make any reasonable offers. Um, Miss Lawrence chose not to do that, just for the record. Okay. We also did not file a stand your ground motion for strategic purposes. And that was also discussed with Miss Lawrence as well. Just wanted to put that on the record. That's it, Judge. [03:25:40] Speaker 1: Um, I'll point the public defender for persons will appeal. [03:25:44] Speaker 6: Good luck to you, ma'am. [03:25:46] Speaker ?: Thank you, Judge. [03:25:47] Speaker 3: May we be excused? [03:25:48] Speaker 6: Oh, very nice. Thank you, Judge. [03:25:50] Speaker 3: Huh? [03:25:52] Speaker 6: Yeah, um, Lena, is that, can you ring in my office? [03:25:59] Speaker 1: Thank you, Judge. [03:26:00] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Judge. Thank you.