INTERVIEW: Michelle Obama gets candid on race, beauty, & politics I MS NOW EXCLUSIVE

[0:00] Hello and welcome to the beautiful home of Blackbird, a collective dedicated to empowering [0:05] women of color and their allies to create positive change in the world. And there could be no better [0:12] setting for our conversation with the woman who personifies that mission, former First Lady [0:18] Michelle Obama. She's still one of the most influential people in American culture, so much [0:24] so that for many, she is the forever First Lady. And one of the ways she has drawn attention to [0:31] her message is through fashion, from the designers she chose to the way she styled her hair. That is [0:38] why her new book, The Look, will change the way you look at this phenomenal woman. Without further [0:45] ado, please welcome former First Lady Michelle Obama. [0:49] Look at here. This is nice and intimate. I like it. [1:13] I want to have a look. [1:14] take in Blackbird right this is a special home for you all right and I'm [1:20] honored to be here Bridget I've wanted to come and visit but we did it up [1:24] didn't we well mrs. Obama thank you very much for this conversation the last time [1:33] we actually talked the tables were turned yeah you and and Craig your [1:37] brother Craig Robinson interviewed me about my book on your podcast IMO I am [1:42] very happy to be back on my turf where I am the one asking the question so [1:47] thank you we're having some fun oh a lot of fun and we're gonna take as much time [1:51] tonight this is Obama I want to show you someone from your past oh okay what are [2:00] you doing Jonathan oh me this is Michelle Robinson at Princeton [2:07] University do you remember this was the early 80s do you remember if this was [2:12] freshmen [2:13] sophomore I probably was a sophomore then because I didn't think I got braids [2:18] until sophomore year that's when I realized that Princeton University [2:22] didn't have a place for black people to get the hair done oh we don't talk about [2:26] hair later on but I want to read what Farah Jasmine Griffin dr. Sharon Jasmine [2:32] Griffin chair of the African American in African Africa and DAS risk studies at [2:36] Columbia University wrote about you in the forward to the look the denim the [2:43] red sweater and white shirt, the slender watch, and the totes say, I am just your average American [2:49] college student. She later writes, and so she came, an American girl with a south side twist. [2:56] And then later still, red, white, and blue, all American girl with braids. Did you see yourself [3:05] as a red, white, and blue, all American girl? How did you see yourself then? [3:10] Gosh, that's an interesting question. I don't know if I was mature enough or cognizant enough [3:20] to be that deep about who I was in the space that I was in. I think at that time, [3:28] by then, my sophomore year, I really understood that I belonged at a place like Princeton. [3:35] I've told this story often, that my experience with reaching high was swatted down, [3:41] like so many of us. I was applying to colleges, sat down with my college counselor. Princeton [3:49] was my top choice, and she told me, are you reaching a little bit too high? [3:53] She said, I don't think you're Princeton material. [3:57] I don't think you're Princeton material. But I was an honor student, a senior class treasurer. [4:04] I had a brother who went to Princeton, so I sort of felt like, well, how are you who [4:11] doesn't know what you're doing? I don't know what you're doing. I don't know what you're doing. [4:11] I don't know what you're doing. I don't know what you're doing. I don't know what you're doing. [4:11] He doesn't really know me understand that. So you enter into college with that voice in your head [4:18] that says maybe you don't belong. It took me a semester to realize I got this right, [4:26] because then you walk onto this campus and you see, you know, it's the affirmative action that [4:32] helps us that seems to be a problem, because when I got on campus, I realized, oh, there's a lot of [4:38] affirmative action going on here. There were the wealthy legacy leaders that were in Illinois, [4:42] kids the athletes that were there not because they were smart but because they [4:46] were football players and on and on and on and then when I blew out my first [4:52] year got straight A's I think by then I realized that I didn't have to prove [4:57] anything to anyone I think that's what I focused on you know I didn't have the [5:02] luxury of thinking beyond kind of purpose I was hustling I was proving I [5:10] was getting my work done [5:12] You got your work done and graduated cum laude from Princeton did you have any [5:20] style role models when you were a kid was Mrs. Robinson a style mom [5:26] no I love my mother but [5:28] my mother was a practical woman from the Southside she was she didn't invest in [5:33] herself at a point and I think I learned the opposite lesson from her that you [5:38] know we we had to beg her to go to the hairdresser you know my father that [5:42] 記得 escrow, discernment safe, earned life from the masters, all that kind of stuff. [5:42] only time she got new clothes is when my father did his annual shopping trip to evergreen plaza [5:48] to the marshall fields or the carsons to get her suit and even though my father had a disability [5:54] he took great pride in driving himself walking on crutches to the ladies department store [6:01] and sitting down with the sales lady to pick up something special for his bride because he knew [6:09] that she wasn't investing in herself so marion taught me that i could put some investment in [6:16] myself my style icons were the people in my orbit you know i mean i looked up to the older girls [6:24] right and south side girls black girls all over the world have some flavor you know just the way [6:32] they wore their jeans or uh layered their their bracelets and i saw these girls [6:39] at my brother's games right the girls that were there looking at the players and i was like the [6:44] little sister well i was checking them out because i was like you're getting attention and you not [6:49] like that little bell-bottom gene um and then there was soul train right you know in addition [6:55] to tuning in every saturday morning to see what the latest steps were you were just watching fly [7:00] happen all over the place um so soul train was a was a place for me to find my my style um [7:09] uh and then there was the flip side of me that was also kind of a tomboy right because i grew up [7:15] with an older brother right so i had my athletic heroes um who was the baseball player jose cardinal [7:23] right who was the first baseman for the chicago cubs uh was a cuban american i think jose cardinal [7:31] was but he he had fine you know big afro baseball cap where you picked out the afro under it [7:40] so in the summer when my hair wasn't pressed i would put on my baseball cap get up to bat [7:48] have my afro picked out and i just i felt like that was the epitome there was there was a flare [7:54] there to me as well so there were many sides of me even as young as you know grade school well let's [8:02] talk about um you said you you you put investment in yourself um let's show another picture well no [8:10] sorry just give it a head let's talk wait let's talk about um when you went to whitney m young [8:15] magnet high school how did going to that high school yeah inform or even change your your [8:22] fashion sense beyond soul train beyond yeah the the games um well i i i talk about my [8:29] my journey is i encourage people in the light the the second book that i wrote about pushing past [8:35] your fears and how our fears can keep us small and for me an [8:40] example of that was something as simple as not going to the high school in your neighborhood [8:45] right because you know it was safe you know you go to go to that high school it's two blocks down [8:50] so that's your world your world was your neighborhood but i wanted to go to a magnet [8:55] high school it was a new high school and i knew it was one of the best college prep competitive [9:01] get in but it was all the way on the other side of the town i'm talking an hour and a half bus [9:05] commute each way each way and i would get up at 5 30 in the morning get up at 5 30 in the morning [9:10] on the bus stop catch the bus i'd be commuting with all the adults downtown and then west [9:16] but going to whitney young was another step into a bigger world outside of my neighborhood because [9:22] it was a magnet school and that was when i saw the first time i saw black wealth because i was [9:29] like first of all we were just black working class and then i started meeting people you [9:35] know whose parents owned companies black kids right who had access to the internet and they [9:40] had access people's parents were doctors i one of my friends you know drove her mother's car to [9:46] school one day and it was a porsche a red two-seater porsche this was a black girl right [9:53] and that's a stick shift that's it you know i was in it once and you know i i was lucky to get [9:59] access to my parents my father's deuce and a quarter when he wasn't using it for work [10:06] so i saw kids that were used to a world [10:10] that was more than mine and they were wearing the designer clothes and shopping downtown at [10:17] water tower place the look then in high school i don't know if you guys it was the preppy look [10:23] you know it was much of what i was wearing in that picture in princeton that was the look it was the [10:29] straight levi jeans um with k-swiss or stan smith white shoes with a polo collar and you know [10:40] collar [10:41] depending you know the cute boys sometimes popped it high right sometimes you popped it in the back [10:47] you know but you wanted to make room for that sweater to be thrown over of course so i always [10:53] had the the hood version of that you know the sweater that you know it wasn't a polo guy on it it [10:59] was something else right right um and i i saw i saw that level of of um of style the other thing [11:10] about whitney young the distance and cutting from south downtown over west [11:16] was that the downtown area became our playground right so i started going to water tower place [11:23] and bond with teller and seeing all these high-end stores and i thought that was a different world [11:30] to me right of fashion and access and uh and and young kids who look like me who had had more than [11:40] than i ever could have dreamed of now when you said earlier you know you put an investment in [11:46] yourself um you a budding fashion designer if you will because you designed your own prom dress [11:55] i did i designed both of them the junior prom this was senior prom senior senior prom dress right um [12:03] that uh mrs mrs robinson so that was the other thing about marion she believed in sewing your [12:09] clothes and well now i understand the value of great tailoring and all that it was just like [12:16] i just wanted the glory of vanderbilt jean with the swan on it i did not want mom's [12:21] perfectly fitted stuff you know you don't appreciate what you don't know but when it came [12:27] to prom time uh mom could put together a pattern so we went and to the pattern store and i [12:35] understood what i wanted i wanted something sleek and timeless i didn't want something [12:39] poofy i wanted it elegant you see that slit up the side those are buttons those are buttons and [12:47] so the skirt buttoned all the way up to the top my thought was and that underneath that that top [12:54] that's a spaghetti strap top so you had conservative as you left the house things buttoned [13:03] down a little further you know what i'm saying and then you got picked up and then one button came up [13:12] and then you got picked up and then one button came up take off the jacket and it's a whole [13:14] take off the jacket and it's a whole different look but i liked i i liked then sleek simple [13:21] and i knew what color i wanted i knew i was looking for a champagne i don't know why but i [13:26] was like i was like that's another color it's not the fabric and i i understood what i wanted back [13:32] then so as i mentioned you graduated princeton cum laude you graduated harvard law school [13:38] went back to chicago to pursue a professional life [13:42] at a white shoe law firm what was your style then were was there a work style oh god and then an [13:48] out of work style yeah out of the office style yes um uh the the 80s suits ladies sad sad times [13:58] the shoulder pads shoulder pads i mean it was just the bad version of men's suits you know um [14:04] i i didn't like them but it was the uniform and you wore a suit and skirt so the options were few [14:13] you could do the suit with the skirt you could get a blazer that was a tweed or something and [14:20] then you could mix it up you could get a simple sheet dress and put a jacket over it never a pant [14:26] and pantyhose oh you hated those hated don't worry see never going to wear them ever again i believe [14:34] that that's the work of a man devil an expensive item like that that rips the minute you put it on [14:43] And the most you could play with was the blouse. [14:46] So I had a black suit. [14:47] I had a red suit. [14:48] I had a sort of a teal green suit. [14:54] I mean, I remember these suits. [14:55] And you just mixed and matched and mixed and matched. [14:59] And it was quite sad. [15:01] Well, let's talk about something a little happy. [15:03] OK. [15:04] So you're at this law firm. [15:06] And then you were assigned a summer associate. [15:09] Yes, you got it. [15:10] By the name of Barack Obama. [15:12] Barack Obama. [15:13] Did he have any style then? [15:15] No, he did not. [15:18] And we talked about it. [15:20] We did. [15:21] Because he was coming out of being a community organizer. [15:25] Right? [15:25] He was broke. [15:26] He lived broke. [15:28] I mean, I wrote about the car with the hole in it. [15:33] Right, yes. [15:33] And he was very frugal. [15:35] He liked the fact that his furniture came from the alley. [15:39] Now, he would pick out good things. [15:41] It's like, you'd see a nice set. [15:42] I was like, where's the furniture? [15:43] Where'd you get this table? [15:43] It's like, see, I found that. [15:45] Somebody was throwing it out. [15:47] And I was like, OK, you're frugal. [15:50] Wait, I want to hear. [15:52] Here's what you wrote in Becoming about the man who went on to become your husband [15:56] when he showed up at a firm mixer. [15:58] This is what you wrote. [15:59] He'd changed out of his work clothes, I noticed, [16:02] and was wearing a white linen blazer that looked as if it'd come straight out of the Miami Vice costume closet. [16:09] Ah, well, there was no arguing with the fact [16:12] that even with his challenged sense of style, Barack was a catch. [16:16] And you get a sense of then-Senator Barack Obama's fashion sense back then. [16:22] In this photo, sorry. [16:26] Oh, OK. [16:28] This photo here, you can see then-Senator Barack Obama in these very woomy pants. [16:36] Yeah. [16:37] They still fit. [16:39] They still fit. [16:40] Color combinations, I don't understand. [16:43] But it's fine. [16:44] It's fine. [16:44] Right. [16:45] The picture, though, is you in this picture. [16:48] Yeah. [16:49] You get a sense of your fashion sense. [16:52] Sleek, chic, white capri pants, pink sweater. [16:58] It's like, what do you wear when Oprah's coming to your house to interview? [17:02] That was surreal for us. [17:03] You've read it about this outfit, but you write about what happened. [17:10] What did Oprah do after this interview? [17:13] So the reason Oprah is happy... [17:15] Well, the reason she's happy about her house interviewing is that this was immediately [17:17] after Barack gave that sort of famous speech at the Democratic National Convention for Senator [17:24] Kerry, the breakout speech where, you know, he was then a... [17:31] He wasn't even a U.S. Senator. [17:32] He was a state senator. [17:33] He was a state senator. [17:34] Uh-huh. [17:35] Right. [17:36] Right? [17:37] So Democratic National Convention, he's going to speak. [17:38] I'm busy. [17:39] I'm working. [17:40] I've got kids. [17:41] I realize, oh, I got to go with you to this speech? [17:44] I mean, I just usually didn't. [17:45] We didn't... [17:46] I didn't go to work with him. [17:47] He didn't go to work with me. [17:48] But this is learning the wife role. [17:49] But after that speech, he blew up. [17:50] And he was on the cover of Time. [17:51] And Oprah started calling. [17:52] And so she wanted to feature him in O Magazine. [17:53] And I thought, oh, okay, they're going to send over a writer, and we'll call it a day. [17:54] But no, she was coming. [17:55] It was Oprah. [17:56] She was up at your house. [17:57] Oprah's coming. [17:58] And it was a photo shoot. [17:59] It wasn't an interview. [18:00] But so... [18:01] It was a photo shoot. [18:02] It was a photo shoot. [18:03] It was a photo shoot. [18:04] It was a photo shoot. [18:05] It was a photo shoot. [18:06] It was a photo shoot. [18:07] It was a photo shoot. [18:08] It was a photo shoot. [18:09] It was a photo shoot. [18:10] It wasn't an interview. [18:11] But still, they turned my living room upside down with lights and cameras, because we were [18:15] going to be inside and outside and walking and talking and all that stuff. [18:19] And I'm thinking, Oprah's coming to my house. [18:22] What am I going to wear? [18:23] I don't have any time for this. [18:25] I didn't have makeup done then. [18:26] Or maybe not. [18:27] I went down the street to a girl that did makeup for WGN News. [18:31] And I was like, girl, can you do me a favor? [18:34] Can you do me a favor? [18:35] Can you do me a favor? [18:36] Can you do me a favor? [18:37] Can you do me a favor? [18:38] Can you do something here? [18:39] Because Oprah's coming. [18:40] And so I had to go from my closet. [18:45] And I thought, well, I want to be fresh, airy, light. [18:48] I was thinking about what the girls had on. [18:51] Because I had to deal with what they already had on. [18:53] And I think, so you see the three of us are kind of coordinating. [18:56] And then Barack is just, you know, he just does what he does. [19:02] But after this, the question was, what did she do? [19:05] After the interview, as a thank you, [19:07] she sent me in. [19:09] I was Oprah-fied, so to speak. [19:11] You got a car? [19:13] At that time, better than a car for me. [19:16] She sent me a trunk full of Ralph Lauren's entire line of clothes [19:21] for that season. [19:23] Two suits, every sweater, color. [19:27] Because we talked about clothes in the interview. [19:30] I was like, girl, this is all I had. [19:32] What do you wear when Oprah's coming? [19:33] We were joking about that. [19:35] And she sent me. [19:36] She sent me a trunk of clothes, Oprah-fied. [19:42] So I opened it up. [19:43] It's since our house, big trunk, steamer trunk full of stuff. [19:47] And I'm like, you get a sweater, you get a sweater. [19:51] And all Barack is doing is standing there. [19:53] He says, you can't keep that. [19:56] I was like, what? [20:00] And, you know, here's how my husband rolls, [20:03] something we've lost sight of. [20:05] Because he was a state senator then. [20:07] And in office, he was like, we cannot accept gifts. [20:10] I was like, yeah, you're right. [20:12] I forgot about that. [20:14] And so we sent it back with a note saying, thank you, [20:17] but he's an elected official. [20:19] Go figure. [20:21] He's an elected official. [20:23] And the notion is that you don't want to have any, [20:26] even the perception that someone with wealth or corporation [20:29] has influence by buying you gifts. [20:32] Fancy that. [20:33] Fancy that. [20:34] Fancy that. [20:35] So we returned them. [20:36] But happy ending to that story. [20:39] This was right at the end when he decided to run for U.S. [20:42] Senator. [20:44] So he stepped down as state senator. [20:46] And there was a period of time when he wasn't in office. [20:50] And Oprah sent all that stuff back. [20:54] I was like, that's my girl. [20:56] That's my girl. [20:58] I know everyone feels like, oh, God. [21:02] So as you mentioned, he stepped down as state senator, [21:05] ran for U.S. Senate. [21:06] He won. [21:08] He's Senator Obama. [21:09] Everyone's like, run for president. [21:11] He runs for president. [21:12] Yes, that's what they said, too. [21:13] I'm like, y'all crazy. [21:15] Shh, be quiet. [21:16] So once Senator Obama became a candidate, [21:19] you found the designer in Chicago you liked, Ikram Goldman. [21:24] Well, before that, I started working with Maria Pinto, [21:28] who owned her own design shop. [21:31] I hadn't met Ikram. [21:32] Ikram was the next level up. [21:34] Okay. [21:35] Well, this is actually even better because this is the Maria Pinto dress [21:41] you wore on June 3, 2008, St. Paul, Minnesota. [21:47] This was the day that then Senator Barack Obama secured enough delegates [21:52] to become the Democratic presidential nominee for president. [21:56] And I bring up this dress because it was also the same day you fist bumped. [22:04] Yeah. [22:05] Yeah. [22:06] Yeah. [22:07] Barack Obama, after you introduced him. [22:09] And more than a month later came this cover of The New Yorker. [22:15] Yeah. [22:17] 17 years ago. [22:18] And still... [22:20] And it's The New Yorker. [22:21] It's not even... [22:22] I can't believe that this... [22:25] I mean, it's as shocking now, 17 years later, as it was then. [22:30] You write about this in The Look and the big lesson you learned from it. [22:34] You wrote, that was one of the more startling moments in my transition [22:37] from being... [22:38] being very much a private citizen to very much a public one, [22:43] where I understood that without me controlling my own narrative, [22:47] people's racism and misogyny would attempt to take over and define me. [22:51] In many interviews, you've said that you felt like you were in a race against time [22:56] to define yourself before others did. [22:59] Talk more about how this one incident informed your thinking [23:03] about how you would show up as first lady once your husband became president. [23:08] Well, it was actually a culmination of things [23:11] where this was kind of the icing on the cake during the campaign. [23:15] Because what I learned, you know, I started out the campaign as somebody's wife [23:22] and ended it in Iowa as what people, what they nicknamed me the closer, right? [23:30] Because what I was able to do, because that's what I focused on, [23:34] was giving life to ourselves. [23:38] I was able to tell my story as people, who were we, not our policies, [23:44] but who is my husband, what were our values, how did we grow up, [23:47] the things that connected us to all Americans, regardless of our race. [23:53] And here's the beautiful thing that we have to remember, [23:56] is that that approach worked everywhere. [24:00] You know, me showing up as a black woman named Michelle Obama [24:04] in a room as intimate as this with all people from Iowa, [24:09] mostly white, mostly rural, working-class farmers, working-class folks, [24:14] you know, you'd start the conversation with people like this, [24:18] and then as the story began, people would nod. [24:23] And they could see themselves in that story. [24:27] And that's the America I want us to remember, [24:30] because that is the truth of how people are. [24:32] I always say it's harder to hate up close, [24:35] because it's easy to demonize people you don't know. [24:39] We don't always know. [24:40] We often get a chance to connect at that intimate level. [24:43] And Barack and I were doing that in state and county after state and county. [24:48] And the country responded, right? [24:51] Because they're like, yes, that is my story. [24:54] I connect to that. [24:55] That's the way I see the world. [24:57] That's how I feel about things. [24:59] When you don't have leaders that highlight that truth, [25:02] but highlight something else that's not even true, [25:06] it can be dangerous. [25:08] But as a result of that being effective, [25:10] the politics then started to happen. [25:13] I understood that it was politics, [25:15] because I stopped speaking to small crowds [25:17] and was speaking to big arenas. [25:19] And then once you do that as the spouse, [25:23] your opponents are like, how do we slow that down? [25:27] How do we make that, that is succeeding, [25:30] look problematic and foreign? [25:33] And this was in the Democratic primary. [25:37] So what was happening was happening among Democrats. [25:40] So please just be clear about that. [25:43] So these initial attacks were coming from within the party. [25:46] But I understood it to be politics, [25:50] making me angry and bitter, [25:53] turning a joke into demeaning my husband [25:57] or emasculating him. [25:59] They would take a simple, wonderful speech [26:02] and turn it into something angry and bitter. [26:05] And then I was operating in a place [26:08] where I didn't know what I was doing. [26:11] I was operating without a speech or a teleprompter. [26:14] I mean, I would literally be talking like this. [26:18] And so you realize how quickly, [26:20] if you're not super careful with your words and your demeanor, [26:25] that you can be flipped. [26:27] And as a woman and as a woman of color, [26:30] the flipping was predictable. [26:33] So I felt kind of like, how did I let my guard down? [26:38] How did I get that comfortable? [26:41] And I learned that there was just no room, [26:44] that I had to be strategic and clear. [26:47] So I started working on a stump speech, [26:50] and I started working on making sure that [26:53] if I'm talking like this, that that's the shot. [26:56] So as a woman, what do you have to do? [26:58] You have to smile after each. [27:01] You know, you want to make sure [27:03] because you're talking to the camera and the photographer. [27:06] So I had to decide I could either succumb to that, [27:09] let it beat me down, [27:10] because at a point I thought, [27:12] well, if I'm not an asset to my husband, [27:14] then maybe I should stop campaigning, [27:16] because y'all know I didn't want to do it in the first place. [27:19] So if I'm not helping, let me get off the trail. [27:24] And then I thought, I can't go out like that. [27:27] But I understood that I had to control my narrative. [27:30] And I was working without a real strong comms director. [27:34] I didn't have any opposition research. [27:39] Mm-hmm. [27:40] I had no big comms people following me. [27:43] I had no press briefing, no media prep. [27:47] I literally left my house and became a campaign star [27:52] with no support. [27:54] So I had to start demanding from the campaign [27:58] things that I needed to make sure that I was protected, [28:01] that I had somebody working really hard on press [28:05] to help change the narrative. [28:08] I learned then that I had to control everything on my own. [28:11] Barack was too busy. [28:13] Mm-hmm. [28:14] I mean, he could love me. [28:16] He could want the best for me, but he had a really tough job. [28:21] So if I was going to be out there, [28:24] I needed to demand what I needed and to control my narrative. [28:29] And that came, in my view, in everything, [28:32] not just my speeches but what I wore, [28:35] the purpose that I moved forward. [28:37] Mm-hmm. [28:38] And I took that period as a... [28:41] I am grateful for that period because it taught me early [28:46] that I'm in charge of my destiny... [28:48] Mm-hmm. [28:49] ...no matter what, and I have to own it [28:51] and be empowered to walk in that space. [28:53] Right. [28:54] Well, let's talk about... [28:56] So here we are, your first official photograph [29:00] as the 44th First Lady of the United States. [29:03] Mm-hmm. [29:04] Now, you applaud, [29:08] but those bare shoulders, [29:10] cause some... [29:12] put people through some fits. [29:14] Mm-hmm. [29:15] Even though you weren't the first First Lady [29:17] to literally bare arms. [29:19] Yeah. [29:20] Yeah. [29:21] Is that... [29:23] Jackie O, Lady Bird Johnson... [29:24] Yes, Jackie Kennedy. [29:25] Jackie Kennedy, Lady Bird Johnson, [29:27] I mean, you name it. [29:28] Mm-hmm. [29:29] And let me tell you, we researched all this. [29:31] I mean, we looked at other photos, First Lady photos, [29:35] because my whole thing when I came in was [29:39] we needed a year to just... [29:41] get our initiatives off the ground, [29:43] because the way I worked on initiatives [29:46] is that I knew I needed to hit the ground [29:48] with some successes. [29:49] So before I announced an initiative, [29:51] it was a year of planning, [29:53] developing partnerships and relationships [29:55] so that when we announced, [29:57] we were announcing things that were already accomplished, [30:00] partnerships, so it felt like there was momentum. [30:03] When I knew I was gonna work on Let's Move, [30:06] we needed a year of really just sort of [30:09] getting partnerships together, [30:10] getting staff, all of that happening. [30:13] So in the meantime, what do we do that first year? [30:15] Because I wanted my staff to start developing [30:17] a muscle for activity, [30:20] because the social office reported to me [30:22] and a whole bunch of things. [30:25] So I thought, okay, I'm gonna look at Laura Bush's schedule, [30:28] because I also wanna show that I respect who came before me, [30:33] you know, that I wasn't just gonna come in [30:35] because I'm black, right? [30:36] So it's gonna take a minute for people, [30:38] because people are like, [30:39] do you really deserve this? [30:40] Do you understand tradition? [30:42] And it's like, well, let me do what she did for a year. [30:44] Let me do every event on her calendar [30:46] without changing anything, [30:48] because that would give my team practice, [30:50] it would let me understand how she defined [30:52] the role of first lady, [30:54] and we'd get some practice just working every day. [30:57] And so we were researching what other first ladies did, [31:02] how they did it, how they chose their initiatives. [31:05] So when it came to a photograph, [31:07] you know, choosing, [31:08] what I thought was a very conservative black sheath dress [31:12] with pearls, sleeveless, [31:14] because by then I mostly wore sleeveless things. [31:17] Even on the campaign trail. [31:18] Even on the campaign trail, [31:20] but they were already talking about my arms then [31:22] for some reason. [31:24] It was, you know, going to the gym was surprising. [31:29] I don't under, you know, it's not, [31:31] but here's the thing, there wasn't a reason for it. [31:34] You know, it was what it was. [31:36] It was other rising us. [31:38] It was, you know, people forgetting context [31:41] and the media kind of following suit. [31:46] You know, nobody doing the research to say, [31:49] whoa, wait a minute, [31:50] because I was always waiting for the, [31:51] whoa, wait a minute article to come from somewhere. [31:55] And it never came. [31:56] You know, everybody pretended like this was truth. [32:01] But yeah, that was just the, you know, [32:04] beginning of many different standards of behavior. [32:08] You mentioned many times your team, your team. [32:11] You write about your team in the look. [32:13] Members of your team write, have their own pages. [32:16] Meredith Koop, who does the clothing, she writes, [32:21] Michelle was not one to sacrifice comfort for fashion. [32:24] Carl, and she's here somewhere. [32:26] Carl Ray, makeup artist. [32:29] You wrote in the book that you rarely wore makeup [32:33] except on your wedding day until you became first lady. [32:37] And he wrote, sometimes she doesn't even look in the mirror [32:41] when I'm done. [32:42] That's like, that's trust. [32:43] And then, and then when it comes to, [32:46] when it comes to hair, you've had many people, [32:48] Johnny Wright, Yenny Demtu, and Jerry Radway. [32:51] And Jerry is also here for reasons that we will accept. [32:55] Brace back in. [32:56] And we're gonna talk about, we're gonna talk about, [32:58] we're gonna talk about the hair in a moment. [33:00] A lot of work went into presenting you as first lady. [33:05] And you've already talked about [33:06] why you did all of these things. [33:09] But the main thing that you write is, [33:11] it was important to me that the clothes never wear me. [33:14] When I entered a room, people needed to see me. [33:18] Why did they need to see you? [33:22] Fashion, you know, it has a life of its own, [33:26] as it should for certain people, [33:29] celebrities, fashionistas, all this stuff. [33:33] And by then, the celebrity stylist was a thing. [33:37] You know, where, you know, dressing somebody, [33:40] now who's dressing you? [33:41] And so sometimes the dressing was more of a statement [33:45] of who was styling you than the person that's in it. [33:48] And that is often true at certain levels of fashion. [33:50] It is about the fashion, period, right? [33:53] So sometimes you'd get clothes, it was like, [33:56] that's just too much button, you know? [33:58] It's like, I'm a real person dealing with real people. [34:03] And we always have these moments where Meredith [34:05] might bring something new. [34:06] She might bring something really cutting edge in. [34:09] And I'm like, it's cute, but what, [34:11] am I going to sit with the children [34:14] on the couch with that bow? [34:17] You know, it's like, that doesn't, [34:19] it doesn't compute to regular life. [34:22] It's beautiful, but as I would tell the team, [34:25] and that was our motto, I am not a celebrity. [34:29] I am the first lady of the United States of America. [34:32] That is a, that's a job that is not about me, [34:35] and it's not about the fashion. [34:37] It's about the work that I do, right? [34:40] That was just, to me, the truth of it, right? [34:45] And so there was the, there was a subtlety [34:50] that I wanted to have. [34:53] When you have stylists where people can, [34:55] they can go in, right? [34:57] And it's like, that lash is too big. [34:59] I would have to be like, too much lash for children. [35:03] You know? [35:04] Adjust. [35:05] You know, you can't be, you know, it's like, [35:07] you don't want people to be distracted by the lip color. [35:11] And my thing was, dressing was the uniform to go to work, [35:17] which is why I was like, it's about comfort, [35:19] practicality, beauty, for sure. [35:22] You know, I didn't, as I said, [35:24] I didn't do any designers any favors. [35:26] I was intentional about working with people, [35:29] but I wore clothes that I loved, [35:31] because as we all know, we don't feel good [35:35] in what we wear, then we're distracted. [35:38] And that's what I couldn't be, was distracted. [35:41] I wanted to get all that done on the side, [35:43] make up hair, and as the team knew, [35:45] once we were done, I was not theirs. [35:48] I was now working. [35:50] And I wanted to be present for the people [35:52] right in front of me. [35:54] I didn't want to be thinking about whether the sleeve worked [35:56] or whether something was bunching up. [35:58] I didn't want to have to stop a hug [36:01] because the fabric was too precious. [36:03] You know, I would never wear a coat. [36:04] I would never wear a coat over my shoulders [36:07] because that sends a message of don't touch me [36:09] because I can't even move my arms. [36:11] You know, I think clothes signal, [36:14] either you're welcoming people in [36:16] or you're saying stay the heck away. [36:19] And for me, my makeup, my clothes [36:22] had to allow me in. [36:24] You know, I was a very active First Lady. [36:27] A day in my life could include playing with puppies [36:31] in the South Lawn, you know, [36:33] catching passes from an NFL player, [36:37] doing cartwheels on the backyard [36:39] and giving a serious speech to my contemporaries [36:44] or advocating for something with business leaders. [36:47] I would have to change clothes for that [36:49] and be ready for that. [36:51] And when it came to kids, my team knew that [36:54] if I'm with kids, anything could happen [36:57] because I'm going to follow their lead. [36:59] And if somebody feels like they need me [37:02] to come down to their level and sit on the floor, [37:05] well, then we better be ready for that [37:07] because I'm not going to be thinking about [37:09] whether I'm scuffing up some white pair of pants, you know. [37:12] You never wore white. [37:14] I didn't wear it that much [37:17] because that's one of those colors that, you know, [37:20] you mess it up and you look crazy all day, you know, [37:24] because you're worried now about the spot [37:26] of the makeup of the hug that you got, right? [37:29] And now that's on camera. [37:31] So, colors. [37:32] Colorful colors, things that were durable, [37:36] fabrics that weren't too precious but beautiful, [37:39] those were the kind of things we were aiming for. [37:42] So, you had so many phenomenal looks as First Lady, [37:45] notably dresses you wore for state dinners. [37:48] There was this one, it's white, [37:50] at a state dinner, the Queen Elizabeth II. [37:52] Well, that was different. [37:53] Right, that was hosted during the first term in 2011. [37:57] Here you are. [37:58] This was, for me personally, [38:00] one of my absolute favorite looks. [38:02] This was Tom Brown, Tom Ford. [38:04] It was... [38:05] No, Meredith. [38:06] Tom Ford. [38:07] Tom Ford. [38:08] Tom Ford gown. [38:09] It's like Meredith. [38:10] I've got it right here. [38:11] I've got my nose. [38:12] So, this is from 2011. [38:13] Wow. [38:14] Oh, you say wow now. [38:15] That was the state dinner at Buckingham Palace. [38:17] Right. [38:18] By the way. [38:21] You said wow then, but here's the wow. [38:23] And then there was this Versace design gown [38:26] you wore at the last state dinner you hosted [38:28] for the Italian Prime Minister... [38:30] Versace, Versace. [38:32] Versace, Versace chain-link dress. [38:34] That was... [38:35] Woo. [38:36] Yeah, that's one of my favorite ones, too. [38:38] So, I wanted to show this because I just want to know, [38:41] what changed between the first Obama term [38:47] and the long white gloves of Queen Elizabeth and this? [38:51] You know, it was just I had... [38:55] To my mind, I was like the country now knows me, you know? [39:00] I was no longer racing the clock to make sure [39:03] that I was defined. [39:05] I had that first term without sounding immodest. [39:10] I think I had done the work to build my identity [39:14] with the American people and with the world. [39:17] So, I mean, you know the score, you know? [39:20] Until, you know, until you're known and proven, [39:24] you don't have the leverage to, you know, [39:28] just go buck wild, right? [39:30] By second term, you know, the stakes were different. [39:34] You know, it was my husband's last term. [39:36] You know, as far as I was concerned, [39:38] I don't need a vote. [39:39] We're good. [39:41] So, we could try some things and play and be a little sexy. [39:46] And some of that was just for the team, too, you know? [39:49] Meredith is an amazing stylist. [39:52] And I knew she, you know, she's like that purebred [39:56] that's loving her style, you know? [39:59] That purebred that's locked up, you know? [40:02] And I wanted to give the team a chance to do something fun. [40:07] So, she, for state dinners, [40:09] we would always have several options, right? [40:12] And from designers that wouldn't know [40:14] whether I would ever wear their clothes. [40:17] They wouldn't know until I stepped out into the North Portico [40:20] just to keep it separate, right? [40:22] And she dealt with all those designers. [40:24] And so, she'd always bring a bunch of looks [40:27] because we needed to have options. [40:29] Mm-hmm. [40:30] You know, we were never gonna be at a loss. [40:33] That you, you know, you all know it. [40:35] You've had the plan of the dress. [40:37] It's all ready. [40:38] It's all steamed. [40:39] And you put it on and rip. [40:41] That was never gonna happen with Meredith. [40:43] So, we always had options. [40:45] So, when she pulled out the rose gold chain-link dress, [40:48] she didn't even think I would try it on. [40:50] And I looked at it, and I was like, [40:52] what's that? [40:54] And we put it on, and it just felt like [40:57] I was wearing a rose gold chain-link dress. [40:59] And it just felt like butter, you know? [41:02] It worked. [41:03] Yeah, it was good. [41:04] Last day dinner, we felt like, [41:05] let's go out with our bangs. [41:08] Now, let's look at an outfit you wore [41:10] long after you were out of the White House. [41:12] And it's one that sent a chill through me [41:14] when I understood fully what you were wearing. [41:18] This is what you wore on January 20th, 2021 [41:24] for then-President Biden's inauguration. [41:28] Folks lost their minds over this outfit. [41:29] Mm-hmm. [41:30] You looked like a superhero. [41:32] Folks are raving about your hair. [41:34] We're gonna talk about hair in a minute. [41:35] Mm-hmm. [41:36] But notice you're wearing pants. [41:39] Mm-hmm. [41:40] You said in an interview [41:42] with Wesley Morris last month, [41:45] this January 6th, it just happened, [41:48] wasn't clear anyone would be safe. [41:50] You wore pants because you wanted to be able to run. [41:53] You had a low heel with a rubber... [41:57] Correct me if I'm wrong, a rubberized sole. [41:59] Yeah. [42:00] You had a lot of practicality because you just did not know. [42:03] Yeah. [42:04] And also, you know, when we have big events, [42:08] we travel with our GLAM team and assistants. [42:12] And I thought, well, we're getting ready to go [42:14] in a perimeter that had been breached [42:16] with a president that claimed that the breachees [42:19] were, you know, just regular citizens. [42:22] So you couldn't be clear, you know, [42:25] that everyone on my team, if something went down, [42:29] would get out with us. [42:31] Because when the service is protecting their principals, [42:35] and everybody knows that, it's kind of a joke, right? [42:38] You know, it's like, you love us. [42:40] Our team, they know all the agents, [42:42] but they're like, you know, stuff goes down, [42:44] you're not getting in the car, right? [42:46] And that's their job, their congressional mandate. [42:49] So I wasn't... [42:50] We weren't going to bring excess people into the perimeter. [42:53] So we... [42:54] It was me and Barack and one other staff person. [42:57] So that meant, here's got to... [42:59] Hang in there, you know? [43:00] So it was all like, you're going to see me once, [43:02] maybe never again. [43:03] So they were, you know, they were putting curls in tight, [43:07] and it was windy, and, you know, [43:10] everything needed to be clear, clean, [43:12] and simple but elegant. [43:14] And like I said, you know, [43:17] looking good is still the bottom line. [43:20] And that's a Sergio Hudson piece. [43:23] Right. [43:24] And it's clear, his belts, his coats, you know, [43:27] I don't care what that was, [43:28] you know, I looked at that and was like, [43:30] yeah, that's a good looking outfit. [43:34] So that Sergio Hudson suit wasn't the only thing [43:36] that got people talking. [43:37] As I mentioned, it was also your bouncing and behaving hair. [43:41] Your hair has also been a central character [43:44] in your appearance, the way it is for all women. [43:47] But when you're a black woman, as you well know, [43:50] there's a heavier burden, [43:51] and you go all the way there [43:54] in the opening paragraph of chapter eight, hair journey, [43:58] and you write, [43:59] this is the full paragraph, [44:01] and feel free to testify if you feel this. [44:04] Black women have been told for centuries [44:06] that they should emulate the white world standard of beauty. [44:09] That means many of us felt we had to straighten [44:11] our texturized hair to fit into a culture [44:13] that does not recognize us wholly. [44:16] Hair is such a central part of our identity, [44:19] and as a result, can become a central burden [44:22] in a black woman's life. [44:24] Another indication that who we are naturally isn't enough. [44:28] You also write, [44:32] in a way, being first lady [44:34] was just another professional experience [44:36] where I had to conform [44:38] to a white environment of appropriateness. [44:41] Yeah. [44:45] And yes, and yes. [44:47] Look, I'd start the chapter with that, [44:50] you know, a tradition that all black women know [44:55] is hair washing day when you're little, [44:58] and the fight with your mother, you know, [45:00] to, you know, [45:01] to get your head under the sink, [45:04] get that shampoo, you know, [45:07] comb out that hair, [45:08] and get the pressing comb out. [45:10] It would, it's like a, you know, [45:12] it's the beginning of hating who we are, [45:16] you know, because as a child, [45:18] you're taken out of play [45:20] to go through this process [45:23] to make your hair something that it's not. [45:26] And it, they're just subtle things [45:28] that are happening to us as young girls [45:31] and, you know, that process is so labor intensive [45:35] and it stops you from being a child, [45:38] and we all know that. [45:40] You know, we, me being 60, almost 62, [45:44] you know, our grandmothers and mothers, [45:47] you know, straightening the hair [45:49] was the thing you needed to do. [45:51] It also made it easier to deal with our hair [45:54] over the course of the week, [45:56] and no mothers had time to deal with hair all week, [45:59] so straighten it out. [46:01] And realizing that at the time, [46:03] there weren't even, like, [46:05] black products designed for black hair. [46:08] So we're shampooing and conditioning [46:10] with white hair products [46:12] that were stripping our hair of natural oils, [46:14] that wall of balsam stuff [46:16] that everybody used. [46:18] I mean, the Dudley hairline [46:20] was just starting to come out. [46:22] Softsheen was coming into being. [46:25] But we didn't even have the products [46:27] at our disposal. [46:29] Unless you had a mother that was a hairdresser, [46:31] and knew. [46:32] And Marianne Robinson was not. [46:34] But you think of how early in your life [46:37] you're conforming, [46:40] and it's not even really your choice. [46:43] So I share that, [46:44] because I think to understand [46:46] the context of our challenge as black women, [46:50] you gotta go back to understand our childhood. [46:53] And I don't know that everybody, [46:54] I don't even know that men [46:55] really fully understand this, [46:57] but let alone people who are not black. [47:00] And I also will acknowledge [47:02] there are other people of other races [47:05] who have other hair issues for sure. [47:08] It is not exclusive to us, [47:09] but this is my story. [47:11] This is my experience. [47:13] So it begins there. [47:15] Now things are very different now. [47:17] And I think we may have had some movement. [47:20] I'm just looking over this audience right here. [47:23] And I'm seeing the array of acceptance [47:28] that we have come to have [47:31] and to start owning. [47:33] And our daughters are now [47:35] in a whole different place. [47:37] So progress has been made. [47:39] But as the first black first lady, [47:42] was I gonna test out that norm? [47:45] No, no, dude. [47:47] They already had me on the cover of a magazine [47:51] with an afro and a fist bump. [47:54] A terrorist fist bump. [47:57] So I was like, [47:58] we don't have time to make hair [48:01] the middle of the story. [48:03] And it would have been [48:04] had I changed up my hair in different ways. [48:07] I mean, when I cut bangs into my hair, [48:09] and I knew it was gonna be a thing, [48:12] but that it was gonna be that big a thing [48:15] was crazy. [48:17] But we had work to do. [48:19] Barack was trying to get healthcare passed. [48:21] We had initiatives to do. [48:22] There were shootings. [48:24] And I didn't want hair [48:27] makeup, fashion, [48:29] to become a story [48:31] that our team had to deal with. [48:34] But, you know, there we are. [48:38] You remember this, [48:41] the boots that broke the internet [48:43] during your... [48:44] That's the Becoming. [48:45] The Becoming tour. [48:46] This was in 2020. [48:48] No, this was 2018. [48:50] The 2018 Becoming book tour [48:53] that Sarah Jessica Parker. [48:54] But nothing, nothing was as seismic [48:58] as what happened on September 7th, 2022. [49:03] During your years in the White House, [49:05] you write, [49:06] I knew there was absolutely no way [49:08] that the first black first lady [49:10] could show up in braids [49:11] or any other protective hairstyle. [49:13] But on that day, [49:14] you did exactly that [49:17] at your portrait unveiling. [49:19] You wore braids. [49:21] How many of you flipped out [49:23] when you saw Michelle Obama [49:25] show up at the White House in braids? [49:29] You write that it caused a stir [49:33] among black women celebrating [49:35] that America was finally ready [49:37] to see their former first lady [49:39] wearing a natural protective hairstyle. [49:41] Was America ready? [49:42] Or did you push America [49:44] to the realization [49:46] just by showing up as yourself? [49:49] Well, I think we have all been [49:51] pushing that margin. [49:52] And I wasn't out front on it [49:54] for the reasons that I noted. [49:58] But over the years with social media, [50:01] our daughters are, you know, [50:03] they were redefining. [50:07] They were starting to set [50:09] a new standard of what they did [50:11] and did not want. [50:13] Why I wore it to the portrait unveiling [50:16] is that I knew it was important [50:18] for me to be a part of that acceptance. [50:23] So I could have easily taken my braids out, [50:26] you know, and done my hair [50:28] for the portrait unveiling. [50:30] But I was like, no, [50:31] I want to show up in the White House [50:34] in a White House event [50:36] to celebrate me in braids [50:39] is the beginning of that statement [50:42] of we now need to move through this. [50:46] Why do you think others [50:48] see black women's hair [50:50] through a political lens? [50:51] What message is she sending? [50:53] Or why do you think people [50:55] view black women's hair as a threat? [50:57] Because they don't understand it. [51:01] You know, they don't, [51:03] they don't understand a lot. [51:05] There are a lot of people [51:06] who don't understand something [51:08] that they don't know. [51:09] They don't know us. [51:10] They're not around us. [51:12] You know, we don't, [51:13] we don't set the standard. [51:15] So now everything becomes bigger [51:19] than what it is. [51:21] You know, my point is [51:23] what we do with our hair [51:24] is not a statement of anything [51:26] other than what we want to do [51:28] with our hair. [51:30] You know, that is, that is it. [51:32] And so, you know, as I've said before, [51:34] I want to send a message [51:36] to people in offices [51:38] who are setting culture [51:40] that we should be the determinators [51:43] of what works for us [51:45] in terms of hair. [51:46] I think it's true for all women. [51:48] You know, I think if women [51:50] don't want to put extensions [51:51] in their hair and be blonde, [51:53] you know, because that's [51:55] ripping their hair out [51:56] and causing them harm, [51:57] I think women should be speaking out [52:01] about the hassles [52:02] and the challenges [52:04] of this other beauty tax [52:06] that's placed on us [52:08] by men who don't know [52:09] what they're talking about. [52:10] You know, you don't know [52:12] our story, our struggle. [52:13] So many of us, you know, [52:15] when we wear our natural hair, [52:16] that's saving time. [52:18] You know, braids adds time to my day. [52:21] It makes me more efficient for you [52:23] because I'm not at the hairdresser [52:25] every morning trying [52:26] to straighten my hair, you know, [52:28] because all I have to do [52:29] is put my hair up in a bun. [52:30] If I'm wearing my natural hair, [52:32] I'm going to be more efficient [52:33] because I don't have to worry [52:35] about doing something to my hair [52:37] that requires all this time. [52:40] I think as you said in one interview, [52:43] you know, something about [52:45] why am I wearing braids? [52:47] Well, maybe that's, [52:48] I was just trying to get to work. [52:50] I'm just trying to... [52:52] It is as simple as that. [52:54] And for some people, [52:55] maybe it is a statement, [52:56] but whatever it is, [52:58] it's not your business. [53:01] Can we pull a question? [53:03] Can we pull back the aperture a bit here? [53:10] Because earlier in the book, [53:11] you write, [53:12] people look forward to the outfits, [53:13] and once I got their attention, [53:15] they listened to what I had to say. [53:17] This is the soft power of fashion. [53:19] And I bring this up [53:20] because this is exactly [53:22] the soft power of the look. [53:24] It's filled with beautiful pictures [53:27] of your outfits that pull people in. [53:29] And when they read what you have to say, [53:32] they are presented [53:33] with your unflinching views [53:35] on race and the importance of representation [53:39] at a time when everyone, [53:41] every institution seems to be running away [53:43] from the D, the E, and the I. [53:46] You are running unafraid, [53:48] headlong into it. [53:50] Why? [53:52] Because I can. [53:56] I've earned the leverage. [54:00] I've earned the, you know, [54:02] I am in control of my life. [54:04] And that is, you know, [54:06] when I talk to young women of all races, [54:09] you know, [54:10] sometimes you can't push against something [54:12] because you don't have the leverage. [54:14] You know? [54:15] What do I tell people? [54:16] How do I wear my hair? [54:17] You better wear the hair [54:18] that'll keep your job [54:19] if you need your job, right? [54:21] Because you don't want to, you know, [54:24] you don't want to put yourself in a position [54:26] where you have no power, [54:27] no money, no resources. [54:29] You, so you have to put yourself [54:32] in a position to earn that leverage. [54:34] I am there. [54:35] I'm not trying to get a vote. [54:38] I have a job. [54:40] I control my own life. [54:42] I am 60-something years old. [54:44] I'm wiser. [54:45] I'm more centered in who I am. [54:48] What better person at this time [54:52] to have these conversations honestly? [54:57] And it's also, you all know me now, right? [55:00] The world knows me now. [55:02] So you know my voice. [55:04] You know my depth. [55:06] You know my caring. [55:07] This fashion book is the third book, [55:10] not the first book I wrote, [55:12] because there's still a proving ground, right? [55:15] I mean, I didn't want to start [55:17] my post-presidential life with fashion. [55:20] I wanted to start it with story and journey [55:23] and honesty and openness [55:25] and an explanation of where I came from [55:27] in my own words. [55:29] And then there was the light, [55:31] which talked about philosophies of life, [55:34] the substance is there first. [55:36] Fashion was coming, [55:38] but now it feels like it's the time [55:41] because I've earned the right to talk about [55:45] the things that I want to talk about [55:47] in the way that I want to talk about them. [55:49] And fashion is a powerful thing in our lives. [55:53] It, you know, we're all into it. [55:56] We're all, you know, it's a billion, [55:58] multi-billion dollar industry. [56:00] It is there. [56:01] It is fun. [56:02] It is beautiful. [56:03] It's all the things, [56:04] but it can also be confining [56:07] and restrictive and expensive and limiting. [56:10] And it can also be used to make women feel small [56:14] and less than. [56:16] And we should be talking about it openly and fully [56:20] and honestly, because if we're not doing it, [56:23] how do we expect our husbands, our bosses, [56:27] the people in our communities to know where we, [56:30] what we feel, what we struggled with [56:32] if we're not talking about it [56:34] out loud? [56:35] And yet there's also, [56:36] you know, when you are in the public eye [56:38] and you write this, [56:39] when you're a woman in the public eye, [56:40] you're often reduced first and foremost [56:42] to your physical appearance. [56:44] You also write, [56:45] if someone wants to take something away from a woman, [56:47] they will try to rob her of her femininity, [56:51] her beauty. [56:52] We have current examples of this right now, [56:55] particularly aimed at female reporters. [56:56] Yes, we do. [56:57] Surprise, surprise. [56:58] And I had written the books before that, [57:00] before all that. [57:01] Right. [57:02] Why does it persist? [57:03] What will it take to shame folks [57:05] into stopping what you described there? [57:09] You know, look, [57:10] we have to pick leaders that don't do that. [57:14] You know, I mean, [57:17] look, it is hard to, [57:19] I can't get into the minds of people [57:23] who are cruel and mean. [57:25] My empathy in me says that [57:28] that comes from a place of brokenness [57:31] and insecurity [57:33] and at a certain stage in life, [57:35] it is not fixable. [57:36] It is, you know, planted in there. [57:39] You know, the question that we have to ask ourselves is, [57:41] well, why are we okay with it? [57:44] You know, people are who they are. [57:49] So, you know, [57:52] in the present day situation, [57:55] we're here because either we did do something stupid [58:00] or we didn't do anything. [58:02] And we're all culpable in it. [58:05] So, surprise, surprise. [58:10] So, we got to want more for ourselves first. [58:14] You know, and I think the conversation with us as women [58:17] and as black women [58:18] and the men that we're with, [58:21] you know, we got to figure out, [58:22] well, are you with us? [58:26] Are you with you? [58:28] Are you going to vote your interest? [58:29] Are you going to vote our interest? [58:32] These are all conversations that I think [58:34] we need to be having first within ourselves, [58:36] which is why the look to me starts with us, right? [58:39] Because people will call you out your name as they say. [58:42] How it affects you starts with how we feel about ourselves. [58:47] The work is always here first. [58:50] You know, people ask, well, how did you handle, [58:53] you know, all of that? [58:55] Well, first of all, I had to cut it off [58:57] because it isn't the truth of how most people felt about me. [59:01] And I, as the First Lady, [59:02] never wanted my image of this country [59:05] to be clouded by a few mean people. [59:08] Because, remember, I was in Iowa. [59:10] I was all over the country, [59:11] and I knew how people were, right? [59:14] So I didn't want to carry that burden and that spirit. [59:18] So I, you know, when you are being attacked [59:22] or when you're being, you know, [59:24] your protection starts from here. [59:27] And so I want us to work with these young girls coming up [59:30] to feel really good about every aspect of who they are [59:35] without any of it, you know? [59:37] So they start with that foundation [59:40] so that when the world is ready to give them something [59:44] that they don't deserve, [59:46] they have some fortification to push through that. [59:52] On that point, for the young black girls [59:54] who didn't grow up with you, Sasha, [59:56] and Malia in the White House [59:58] but are growing up in a moment [1:00:00] when their very identities are under attack [1:00:03] and their history is being erased, [1:00:05] I mean, MLK Day and Juneteenth have been removed [1:00:09] as free days at national parks, for instance. [1:00:12] What message do you have for them? [1:00:14] Vote. [1:00:17] I mean, it's always my message, you know? [1:00:20] Where we are isn't a statement [1:00:24] of the failure of our democracy. [1:00:26] You know, it is the failure of people [1:00:28] to engage in the democracy that's here. [1:00:31] You know, people fought and died for the right to vote. [1:00:36] My father wouldn't have voted [1:00:38] if he didn't have thought about not voting. [1:00:42] And things were way worse for my father and his father [1:00:46] than they were for any of us today. [1:00:48] And there would never have been a situation [1:00:51] where he felt like, eh, I'm not going to bother, [1:00:54] or everyone's the same, so I'm not going to engage. [1:00:58] And engaging doesn't mean just the vote, [1:01:00] but it means the awareness and the consciousness [1:01:03] that, you know, you can't let your phone distract you [1:01:07] so much that you don't know what's going on. [1:01:10] You know, our young people have to understand [1:01:12] that they have a responsibility. [1:01:14] Our people, forget our young people, [1:01:17] that they have a responsibility to stay connected and in tuned [1:01:20] and to understand in real terms [1:01:22] who the people are they're letting lead. [1:01:27] That's my message. [1:01:30] Our democracy isn't broken. [1:01:33] It's just not utilized. [1:01:36] And we have to be vigilant and engage. [1:01:40] Nothing is, we can't take anything for granted ever. [1:01:43] We just got here. [1:01:45] We just got here. [1:01:49] 50 years ago, equal rights, just, I'm 62, you know. [1:01:56] As a full-fledged democracy. [1:01:58] As a full-fledged democracy, we just got here. [1:02:02] And already we're like, ah, I can't be bothered [1:02:07] because it's not perfect. [1:02:09] You know, it took 400 years to get here. [1:02:12] You know, so we have to have some patience [1:02:16] and some vigilance in it. [1:02:18] There is so much hope in your overall story. [1:02:22] But for a lot of people in the country today, [1:02:25] hope is hard to have or to hold onto. [1:02:29] And I'm thinking people in your hometown of Chicago [1:02:32] or right here in Los Angeles who live with the fear [1:02:35] that they or someone they know [1:02:37] or care about have been or will be snatched up [1:02:41] off the streets by federal agents. [1:02:43] And who would have thought that just two years ago? [1:02:47] Who would have thought that that would be [1:02:50] the country that we're in? [1:02:52] But given, even with all that's awful, [1:02:58] what gives you hope when so much is so awful? [1:03:02] That little girl right there. [1:03:05] That little girl. [1:03:07] That's Olivia. [1:03:08] Olivia. [1:03:12] There is no way that you can look at that boy [1:03:14] or that beautiful little girl and not understand [1:03:20] that we do not have the right or the luxury [1:03:25] to become hopeless, right? [1:03:28] We, if we are only doing this for us today, right, [1:03:34] which is how it seems to be. [1:03:36] We've come to this point where if I didn't win today, [1:03:40] then I quit. [1:03:42] We're the first generation of people of color and women [1:03:46] that even thought that way. [1:03:48] If you think about everything our grandfathers [1:03:51] and them before them, our mothers, what they did, [1:03:54] and they knew none of it was going to benefit them in that. [1:03:58] They were fighting for us. [1:04:00] There wasn't an expectation that I was going to get a tax break [1:04:05] or my life was going to change. [1:04:07] They did it for us when we were young. [1:04:10] And we've grown up a little entitled, right, [1:04:13] because people fought for us in ways, [1:04:15] and then they handed us this wonderful life, [1:04:18] not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. [1:04:21] And they never, ever got too tired. [1:04:24] Never. [1:04:27] That wasn't the story of that struggle. [1:04:29] And they did it for us. [1:04:31] So for us to be like, ugh, you know, this is just too much, [1:04:37] then we deny what she has a right to. [1:04:41] So my hope is that we keep fighting. [1:04:44] You never, what's the alternative? [1:04:47] You just quit? [1:04:48] You just roll over? [1:04:49] You just accept for your children and your grandchildren? [1:04:53] You know, the fight is for them. [1:04:55] And your fight when you get our age is going to be for your children. [1:04:59] We have to be a country where we exist for children, [1:05:03] not for us, not for our benefit, seniors, you know. [1:05:09] We can't just be making the world comfortable for us, right, [1:05:13] because our needs are different from our children, you know. [1:05:16] Our votes can't just be for our comfort and safety. [1:05:19] It has to be for education. [1:05:21] Like, when was the last time we talked about education? [1:05:24] When was the last time we talked about how our kids are learning [1:05:27] and changing and what they need and how their brains are different? [1:05:31] How are we applying AI to make it better for them to learn [1:05:34] instead of us being able to do less or to talk to some chat GTP, [1:05:40] whatever you call it? [1:05:41] I know I get those, I get that wrong all the time. [1:05:43] Chat GPT. [1:05:44] Yep. [1:05:45] See, now I sound like my grandmother. [1:05:49] You know? [1:05:50] I don't even know what they call it. [1:05:52] You know what I mean. [1:05:54] So, you know, the hope for me comes from what we owe the next generation. [1:06:01] And we all should be ashamed of ourselves if we give up on them. [1:06:06] I'm going to get you on two more things before we have to end. [1:06:09] How much of what we've seen in the look will be featured at the Obama Presidential Center? [1:06:14] I'm so glad she asked. [1:06:18] That's a... [1:06:19] The Presidential Center is scheduled to open this summer in June. [1:06:23] It's phenomenal, y'all. [1:06:24] You got a specific date? [1:06:27] I don't want to jump the gun because... [1:06:30] But it's in the early part of June. [1:06:34] But it is not a Presidential Center. [1:06:37] It is an economic development engine. [1:06:39] It's a community space. [1:06:41] It is an art center. [1:06:43] We have art from Martin Puryear and Maya Lin. [1:06:48] And, oh, I mean, you know, Mark Bradford has a piece that's going to go through the... [1:06:55] I mean, on the south side of Chicago, where I grew up, across the street from a public high school, [1:07:02] there will be some renowned activity right at the fingertips of kids in that community. [1:07:07] They won't have to get on a bus. [1:07:09] They won't have to be othered or unwelcome. [1:07:11] They can cross the street and have access to some of the most beautiful culture and democracy [1:07:17] and work bringing people from all over the place. [1:07:20] And, yes, there will be some dresses. [1:07:24] And will you be there? [1:07:25] Will you and the President spend a lot of time at the center? [1:07:28] Is that the intention? [1:07:29] Yes, we will spend a lot of time at the center. [1:07:32] That's, you know, it's the hub of where our work can happen. [1:07:36] And it was intentional having... [1:07:38] It's the first Presidential Center that's in a black neighborhood, you know. [1:07:44] So, yeah, we are excited about it. [1:07:46] And... [1:07:47] The fashion journey will be an important part of what people can come and see. [1:07:52] So, you know, I couldn't talk to you and not go to my Aunt Gloria... [1:07:56] Yes. [1:07:57] ...and ask her, do you have a question for Michelle Obama? [1:08:01] Aunt Gloria? [1:08:02] And Aunt Gloria had this to say. [1:08:04] She goes, I don't have a question. [1:08:08] Because Aunt Gloria always has a statement. [1:08:11] And here's the statement. [1:08:14] Michelle needs to continue to be Queen of America. [1:08:17] She is beautiful, happy, and an inspiration to young girls, just as Obama is an inspiration to all. [1:08:24] Haven't read her book, but cannot wait. [1:08:27] So I just put that out there. [1:08:30] I want to end our conversation where we began, with Michelle Robinson. [1:08:42] But now I want to introduce Michelle Robinson to Michelle Obama. [1:08:50] Do you see what I see here? [1:08:57] When I saw this in the look, a chill went through me. [1:09:00] You're both in denim jackets. [1:09:02] Mm-hmm. [1:09:03] You're both in braids. [1:09:05] These pictures are about 40 years apart. [1:09:11] What would the former First Lady of the United States here tell the all-American girl with a South Side twist here? [1:09:22] I would tell that girl, you have a lifetime of possibility. [1:09:29] You will never be just one thing. [1:09:32] You will continue to grow and evolve into so many different things. [1:09:37] And that is the beauty of being a woman, right? [1:09:42] We evolve because we have to, but in that need to have to evolve that comes from us physically, biological, sociologically, [1:09:54] there are a lot of burdens that come with that evolution, but there is power and opportunity because we know how to do it. [1:10:00] You know, we know how to change and adapt and to grow. [1:10:03] And with every experience, there's going to be another layer of possibility. [1:10:08] Yes, there will be challenges. [1:10:10] There will be fears, but wow, you'll never stop growing. [1:10:15] And there, that to me is hope. [1:10:19] That's hope for our girls. [1:10:21] There is no point at which you're done. [1:10:23] There's no point at which you cannot remake yourself even out of a bad situation [1:10:31] and become something else, something more, as long as you realize you have that power. [1:10:38] You know, you don't let anybody take that away from you. [1:10:41] And that, to me, you know, that, yeah, then everything is upside, you know. [1:10:49] I never thought that that little girl at Princeton would be fly and confident and freer than ever at 60 years old. [1:11:01] Mm-hmm. [1:11:03] And it is a very different way for us to be 60 and 70. [1:11:07] And I tell young people, I wouldn't go back. [1:11:11] I wouldn't change anything, but I would not go back. [1:11:14] I wouldn't go back to 20s for a waste and for any amount of money in the world [1:11:20] because the more we grow, the more we can sit in our wisdom and then share it, right? [1:11:28] Why do I do this? [1:11:30] Because I feel it's my obligation. [1:11:32] It's like if I learn something, well, let's share it so that, you know, [1:11:36] and we know young people, they won't listen to us anyway. [1:11:39] But at least they know you heard it. [1:11:41] I told you. [1:11:42] I'll watch you run into that wall. [1:11:45] But I told you it was there. [1:11:48] And that's how we grow. [1:11:50] And who would have imagined? [1:11:52] And I think, you know, I'm just starting the next chapter. [1:11:56] You know what? [1:11:58] I'm going to squeeze in one more question if you don't mind. [1:12:00] Okay. [1:12:01] I don't mind. [1:12:02] This is the one that's looking like you. [1:12:05] Mrs. Obama, after reading all of your books and listening to a lot of your interviews, [1:12:09] I think I've got you figured out. [1:12:12] You have your mother's pragmatic way of looking at the world as it is. [1:12:17] For instance, in The Light We Carry, you write about how you had this math teacher [1:12:22] who you didn't like and she didn't like you and it was tough. [1:12:26] And you write that your mother said, [1:12:28] you don't have to like your teacher and she doesn't have to like you. [1:12:31] But she's got math in her head. [1:12:33] That you need in yours. [1:12:34] So maybe you should just go to school and get the math. [1:12:39] And you also write that this is another thing about my mother. [1:12:43] She doesn't believe in fudging the truth. [1:12:47] And you have your father's way of not letting the world as it is dim your light. [1:12:54] And you write in The Light That We Carry, [1:12:56] all three of these quotes come from The Light That We Carry. [1:12:59] My father, whose shaky demeanor and foot-dragging limbs [1:13:03] sometimes caused people to stop and stare at him on the street, [1:13:06] used to tell us, with a smile and a shrug, [1:13:09] no one can make you feel bad if you feel good about yourself. [1:13:14] You write, with his centeredness, [1:13:16] my dad was able to look past whatever mirror the world might have held up to him. [1:13:21] All the ways a blue-collar black man walking on crutches [1:13:24] might otherwise be made to feel worthless or invisible. [1:13:28] And then you write, my father, he had given me the roadmap [1:13:32] for what going high looked like. [1:13:35] Am I close? [1:13:37] Did I got it right? [1:13:39] That's it. [1:13:40] That's it. [1:13:42] You are, yes, it is. [1:13:45] I was blessed, as so many of us are, [1:13:50] with parents who weren't rich, wealthy, you know, connected. [1:13:57] But there is a down-to-earth common sense, [1:14:01] just wisdom and values that so many of us, [1:14:06] regardless of our race and religion, [1:14:08] our gender, we know, we came from that. [1:14:11] And I try never to soar so high [1:14:15] that I ever lose a connection with that truth. [1:14:19] That's what keeps me grounded and clear. [1:14:22] It's not the stories and the dresses and the experiences [1:14:27] and the palace and this. [1:14:29] It is still the voices of Marian and Frasier. [1:14:35] That's the power that we have to shape young people. [1:14:39] And I keep that in mind every single day. [1:14:43] That's what keeps me moving forward, those voices. [1:14:48] And they're pretty doggone right, you know? [1:14:51] So... [1:14:52] Michelle Obama, 44th First Lady of the United States, [1:14:56] thank you very much.