Full interview: Hillary Clinton on Hungary's election, Trump's social media posts

[0:00] And joining us now to weigh in on all of this and more, former Secretary of State and former First Lady and former Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. [0:09] I'd like to start with Orban's loss. [0:12] You posted the end of Viktor Orban's autocratic regime is a victory not just for Hungary, but for people who value democracy around the world. [0:23] How does this impact Europe, Ukraine specifically, and, of course, politics here at home? [0:32] Well, I think, Mika, this is a significant development. [0:37] And as I said in my very short comment, it is a win for the Hungarian people. [0:45] It's a win for Europe. [0:46] It's a win for democracy. [0:48] I hope it's also a win for Ukraine. [0:51] And it is a significant defeat for Putin, for Trump, and for the forces of authoritarianism around the world. [0:59] Now, of course, we have to learn the lessons that I think are evident from the election. [1:08] This was an election that was certainly most importantly about the people of Hungary and what they wanted. [1:14] And the theme of anti-corruption, the disgust that the Hungarian people had with the corruption, Orban, his family, his enablers, his cronies, was one of the driving forces in what was a historic turnout of more than 77 percent. [1:37] So this was a very important event for a lot of the values. [1:45] And I just want to say that, ironically, when, you know, J.D. Vance was there propping up Orban, he followed, you know, in the footsteps of Rubio and Trump's very staunch support for Orban. [2:00] He kept going on and on about how we had to, you know, save Western civilization. [2:06] Well, in fact, voting Orban is a win for Western civilization. [2:11] It's a win for accountable government. [2:14] It's a win for the rule of law. [2:16] It is a win for checks and balances. [2:18] It's a win against, and it's a win against those who cozy up to dictators like Vladimir Putin. [2:27] And, Madam Secretary, how ironic that anybody would go to Orban's Hungary and talk about that somehow this was a bastion of Western civilization when, in fact, it was just the opposite. [2:39] You're right. [2:40] He attacked the independent judiciary. [2:43] He attacked the free press. [2:45] He attacked political institutions that promoted democracy. [2:49] I'm just curious your take on what should Americans take away from the fact that Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin had an alliance together to help elect Viktor Orban, that Hungary's foreign minister was talking to Russians, Russia's foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, and basically acting as his agent. [3:11] You had Viktor Orban telling Vladimir Putin, I'll be like the mouse taking the thorn out of the lion's paw. [3:20] What, what, what is it? [3:24] What, what is it between Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, and everyone around them that made them go all in so hard for Viktor Orban? [3:35] Well, I think you really summed it up, Joe, because what we have here is this really unholy alliance among autocrats and wannabe autocrats. [3:51] And, you know, Viktor Orban morphed from an anti-communist, anti-Russian young student leader in Hungary into a toady for, you know, Vladimir Putin. [4:05] And, you know, this isn't the first election that Putin interfered in, as I know very well, and it won't be the last, but this was a resounding defeat. [4:15] And what it should tell us is that given the chance, people will not tolerate the kind of oppression that Orban was imposing on them. [4:29] Yes, he was dominating the government, but he was also dominating the judiciary. [4:36] He was, in every way possible, strangling a free press. [4:40] He was taking over the universities and telling them what to teach. [4:44] Some of that may sound very familiar to your viewers. [4:48] And what we should be learning from this is that you cannot allow one-man rule, because one-man rule leads to corruption. [4:59] It leads to oppression. [5:01] It leads to reckless adventures, like we're seeing with Trump in Iran. [5:05] It leads to the kind of destruction of democratic institutions. [5:11] And so I think this is a wake-up call for Americans. [5:15] I don't care what you call yourself politically. [5:18] If you are an American, you care about American democracy here in our 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, [5:27] then we want to be independent of the kind of behavior that you see coming from Trump, [5:34] which is an effort to model himself on Vladimir Putin. [5:39] Well, Viktor Orban learned that the Hungarian people wouldn't put up with that. [5:43] And I certainly hope that we see that in the midterm elections and the next presidential election from American voters. [5:52] Well, and for people that are listening, I mean, Donald Trump very clearly, always said openly that Viktor Orban was a role model for him, [6:00] invited him to Mar-a-Lago when he was out of the White House. [6:04] And so he has modeled himself after this authoritarian. [6:09] Let's talk about the lessons for Democrats here at home. [6:12] We just had the mayor of San Jose coming on. [6:16] He's running for governor of California. [6:19] And he said something that really struck out, struck me, whether you're talking about Hungary [6:24] or whether you're talking about the California governor's race. [6:26] And he said the best resistance to MAGA is results. [6:33] And I found it interesting that that Orban's opponent didn't run against the sort of things that that maybe we would talk about all the time, [6:41] whether it was an independent judiciary or whether it was about press freedoms. [6:45] But instead, he talked about corruption and he talked about pocketbook issues. [6:51] He talked about the economy, stupid, as James Corvill famously said in 1992. [6:58] Talk about the lessons from Hungary for Democrats wanting to make a difference in 26 and 28. [7:06] I think that the two themes should be affordability and accountability. [7:13] I think, obviously, we've talked a lot about affordability, as many of your guests have alluded to. [7:20] We've got to address the cost of living. [7:24] I had a piece in The New York Times a few days ago talking about, you know, some of the ways that we should help families, [7:31] particularly families that are trying to raise children, which has become increasingly expensive, [7:37] and housing and health care and all of the other issues that need to be on the forefront of this election, [7:43] because, you know, we're going in the wrong direction under Donald Trump. [7:47] We're seeing inflation rise. We're seeing the cost of everything from gas closing to health care going up. [7:54] So the first A is affordability, but the second A is accountability. [7:59] And I think that's exactly what the election for the TISA party and the winner, Magyar, was about. [8:07] You know, it was about the economy. It was about their education system and their health care system. [8:12] But it was also about accountability. And I think they go hand in hand. [8:16] And I would, you know, hope the Democrats don't focus on one to the exclusion of the other, because I think they're very important. [8:23] You cannot have affordability if you don't have accountability. [8:27] And accountability starts with reining in corruption in this White House, [8:32] because the corruption is not just the amounts of, you know, money that, you know, Trump and his family are shoveling in. [8:41] It's also about who they favor, who they give benefits to, often at the, you know, middle class families and working people. [8:50] So focus on affordability, but let's also focus on accountability. [8:55] One of the real unfortunate mistakes of the Biden administration is they didn't, you know, really focus on the accountability measure. [9:03] Well, now there is more than enough to look at and get people to understand the connection between their lives and the enrichment of the Trump family and the Trump cronies. [9:17] Every single thing they do has a transactional cost that benefits them. [9:23] So I think we've got a great story to tell. [9:27] And as you rightly pointed out, it was the story that was told in Hungary. [9:32] And it was also a story that stayed focused. [9:35] Look, there are a million things that I disagree with when it comes to what, you know, Trump and his enablers in Congress are doing or failing to do. [9:44] But let's stay focused, affordability and accountability. [9:48] I think that's a winning message for Democrats in November and then in 2028. [9:56] And by the way, I, the Wall Street Journal editorial page, I'm sure they'll be very happy to hear this. [10:02] I think that's echoed much of what Secretary Clinton just said in that, hey, Republicans, look at what happened with Hungary when you had an autocrat picking winners and losers. [10:13] Yeah. [10:14] Cozying up and having this corruption in government. [10:18] And it was a losing ticket in Hungary. [10:21] It'll be a losing ticket here. [10:22] Well, as we slowly get to Iran and on your point about affordability and accountability really needing to be the message that the Democrats stay focused on. [10:33] We had, for example, since Easter Sunday and through today, really some some would call profane posts by the president. [10:43] And I just wonder how that fits into staying focused. [10:46] The Easter Sunday message, the president threatening to decimate a civilization and then just, I think, overnight posting himself as Jesus. [10:58] Does reaction to that fit into the message? [11:01] And what is your reaction? [11:02] Absolutely. [11:04] I mean, we need to hold leaders accountable for what they say as well as what they do, because words, especially from an American president, have real consequences. [11:14] And when you look at the last week of unhinged rants coming from Trump's social media account, it's just disgraceful. [11:24] I mean, threatening civilizational genocide, threatening Pope Leo, threatening the values. [11:32] I want to get back to this point. [11:34] You know, you hear Trump and Vance and these people prattle on and on about Western civilization. [11:39] I don't think they've ever taken a course in Western civilization. [11:43] I was lucky enough to take one at Wellesley College all those many years ago. [11:47] And Western civilization has a real meaning. [11:51] It is a meaning about our values, our institutions. [11:54] This country of ours is a result of the development over centuries of Western civilization. [12:01] It is how we hold leaders accountable so they don't become autocrats and dictators and how they don't lead us into, you know, reckless wars and really unhinged attacks on, you know, the first American pope. [12:20] So, yes, accountability is a very broad concept. [12:25] It's not just about holding people accountable for the crimes that they've committed, maybe the bribes that they've taken, the kind of, you know, unaccountable power they've exercised. [12:37] It's also about holding them to a standard, and the standard should be American democracy, our institutions, the rule of law, how we conduct ourselves. [12:48] And it's not just about the laws we pass, but the norms that we follow, all of which have been broken by this president. [12:56] So I read those, like, I think, I hope the majority of Americans both shaking my head and really just feeling that we have a president who is such a disgrace. [13:10] And it's about what we should stand for that he positions himself against, using slogans like Western civilization and admiring somebody like Putin who wants to destroy Western civilization. [13:25] So let's be really clear about what accountability means here, and let's start holding him accountable for what he says and what he does. [13:35] And, of course, we have to wait for an election, but there are a lot of people around him who, I think, need to be held accountable right now for the behavior that they're engaged in and what they are leading us toward. [13:47] Let's talk about Iran. [13:51] We'd love to get your insights on the war. [13:53] Obviously, you've always understood and you've always clearly said that Iran has been the epicenter of international terror since 1979. [14:04] They have the blood of Americans on their hands. [14:08] And I know you have great fears, like everybody else, about a nuclear Iran. [14:13] But let's talk about where we are now, how we get into the war, and how we get out. [14:23] Talks obviously took place over the weekend. [14:25] It seems to me the two issues, intractable issues, remain the strait and Iran's nuclear program. [14:33] If you were secretary of state today, what would be your next step following the talks in Islamabad? [14:42] Well, there is so much damage that's been done by this administration to achieving those two goals that it's going to take a lot of hard work. [14:53] And, you know, Joe, let me just say this. [14:56] When I was secretary of state and beginning the secret, then, secret negotiations with Iran to try to reach a nuclear weapons deal to prevent them from ever having a nuclear arsenal, it was a very slow, deliberative process. [15:16] This is hard work. [15:17] You don't just show up in Geneva or Islamabad, talk for a bunch of hours, and go away. [15:23] This is hard-disciplined effort that has to go into diplomacy to reach any result. [15:31] And I don't see this administration either wanting to do it or, frankly, being capable of doing it, [15:36] because they send the same three people around the world, you know, two of them, Jared Kushner and Steve Whitcock, you know, they're supposed to solve Ukraine, Iran, Gaza. [15:47] It's a joke. [15:48] Because, from what I'm told and what I've read in public, the offer that was made by the Iranians in Geneva was not adequate. [16:01] But it's as a starting place beyond which, as Jonathan Powell, the British national security advisor, said, we expected the Iranians to say that would require sitting in a chair for hours, as we did, to get the first agreement. [16:18] That seems to be something that Trump and his people are unable to do. [16:23] So you would have to wipe the slate clean. [16:27] You would have to bring in people who actually know something about nuclear weapons. [16:31] We had physicists, nuclear weapons practitioners at the table when our administration was negotiating for the JPOA. [16:42] You need people who know something, who know the history. [16:45] It's shocking that Trump said nobody told him that Iran might close the Strait of Hormuz. [16:50] Every war game I was ever involved in, that was the first thing we assumed Iran would do. [16:56] So we're in a situation now where we are weak, where we essentially have lost the leverage and initiative that we had. [17:06] I supported Trump bombing the nuclear sites back in June. [17:10] I thought that was an appropriate and limited strategic objective. [17:14] He posed his incoherent attack on Iran, and I also know from personal experience, Netanyahu has tried to get every American president to agree to have an open-ended war with Iran, [17:28] because I had many, many long, hours-long conversations with him and his war cabinet about this, [17:35] and refusing to go along with a very incoherent desire to do something to Iran that, you know, [17:45] with no real end state that could be ascribed sufficiently. [17:49] So now here we are. [17:51] I think you've got to get back into hard negotiations with the right people at the table who know what they are doing. [17:59] And I think then you've got to make it very clear we want our allies involved. [18:04] We don't want to be dissing our allies because they have a big stake in this. [18:10] When we did the original talk, we had the P5 plus 1, you know, the original members of the Security Council plus Germany. [18:16] But it was a real negotiation. [18:19] So I worry that the United States is now in a very weak position vis-a-vis Iran, which should be the outlier, [18:26] should be on the back foot, and should be the one held to account. [18:29] So you mentioned our allies. [18:33] I'm curious, NATO allies, our friends, how do you, from the many people that I know you speak to, [18:40] how do our allies feel about us right now, and what is the concern moving forward? [18:45] And given the void that you see, that you say you see at the negotiating table with this war in Iran [18:52] and the patterns of this commander-in-chief, then where is this headed? [18:59] This is what worries me the most, Mika. [19:01] A quick point on the allies. [19:03] It was a good day for NATO and the EU with the Hungarian election [19:07] because the new leader immediately said we're going to get close to the EU and NATO. [19:13] Not that he's going to agree with everything. [19:15] That's not expected. [19:16] But we're going to be back in an alliance. [19:18] We're going to be working together. [19:19] I think our allies believe we've lost our mind because they wake up in the morning like we do [19:25] and see the rants from the president of the United States, the figure of, you know, such shorty, making no sense. [19:35] So I think the allies have come to the realization they've got to strengthen the EU. [19:40] They have to strengthen their own defenses. [19:43] They have to strengthen their position with Ukraine to prevent Putin. [19:48] And it's at a stalemate, which is, you know, for Ukraine. [19:52] And we've got to make sure that they continue to defend themselves. [19:55] They're not pushed into some, you know, surrender deal by Trump. [19:58] But the bigger question is what does Trump do now? [20:01] You know, I teach, of course, at Columbia University with the dean of the School of International Public Affairs. [20:06] We've been on your program. [20:08] And among the things we teach is behavior of leaders. [20:12] And there's something called domain of loss, which means when a leader feels that he's losing, [20:17] he actually becomes more reckless. [20:21] And I fear that with Trump. [20:23] You know, he's found the joy of ordering our military to go do things that give him a lot of dopamine, I guess, [20:31] when he's in the situation room watching them, you know, take out Maduro from, you know, Venezuela or attack Iran or whatever. [20:40] I just worry that he's going to become more reckless. [20:43] And this is a call to the Congress, including the Republicans, to step and do your constitutional duty. [20:53] Reign in this president before he causes absolutely irreparable damage to our country, [21:02] to our military standing, to our authority and leadership. [21:06] Do not let him continue to be a rogue player in the international arena, because I fear he will get more reckless. [21:16] And I will tell you, when we win these midterm elections, because, look, if the elections were today or next week or the following week, [21:23] we would win both the House and the Senate. [21:25] And I hope that's what happens in November, both because I want to see change, but also I want to see him held accountable. [21:31] And so let's do it now, because I'm not sure we can wait and allow him, you know, free range to, along with his buddy, [21:41] Hegseth, to, you know, tell our military to go do things that are not even in the interests of the United States, [21:49] as well as breaching, you know, the laws of war. [21:52] So, look, I worry a lot about how irrational and unhinged he could become. [22:00] Let's talk about Israel. You spoke briefly about Netanyahu and Israel. [22:06] I know you've always been a strong supporter of Israel. [22:09] You've spoken out aggressively against anti-Semitism. [22:13] You've, in fact, been attacked time and time again when you give speeches, [22:19] because people believe that you are too strong of a supporter of Israel. [22:24] And yet you, you, I've heard you and President Clinton talk about the tragedy of how far Netanyahu has taken us [22:33] from where the Clinton administration had us in the Oslo Accords, [22:38] where there was an extraordinary deal for the Palestinians that they passed up on, [22:44] which led to the saying to begin, the Palestinians never pass up an opportunity to pass up an opportunity. [22:49] That said, here we are all these years later, and Netanyahu continuing an endless war, [22:58] the bombing of, it seems like, half of Lebanon. [23:02] We saw what happened in Gaza. [23:04] Every day, horrors being visited upon the people of the West Bank. [23:10] Talk about, talk about the real damage that Benjamin Netanyahu is doing, [23:17] not just to the region, but also to Israel. [23:21] You've seen the, you've seen how a majority of Americans have now turned against Israel. [23:27] In our time, that was unheard of, Madam Secretary. [23:31] What, what's the future for Israel? [23:36] Well, you've got a pretty good summary of the problem, Joe. [23:40] I, I do support Israel. [23:42] I am a staunch supporter of Israel, and I am a staunch opponent of Benjamin Netanyahu. [23:47] He has stayed too long. [23:49] He has, in my view, undermined Israel's long-term purity. [23:56] And I am, you know, very worried about what's happening. [24:01] You know, when people say, well, you've got to support Netanyahu, [24:03] if you are, you know, pro-Israeli or Israel, well, I say, look, I love America, [24:11] and I am really opposed to Donald Trump. [24:14] Does that make me anti-American? [24:16] I don't think so. [24:17] It makes me a, you know, fair observer, in my view, of, you know, [24:22] assessing what is in the best interest of my country, and I feel the same way about Israel. [24:28] Now, look, I think there has been a very important effort to push back to defeat the Axis enemies [24:41] that Iran put together, Hamas, which, remember, started, you know, [24:47] the terrible sequence of events back on September 7th of 2023, and Hezbollah. [24:53] But we see Hezbollah is not by any means defeated because we're engaged in a war now in southern Lebanon. [25:02] I would wish the following. [25:04] Number one, and finally, there seems to be some opening here. [25:08] I've been advocating behind the scenes for this now for several months. [25:13] Israel should support this Lebanese government. [25:16] There has not been a better Lebanese government since the Syrians and Iranians assassinated Hariri. [25:23] They are trying. [25:24] Do they have all the capacity they need? [25:27] No. [25:28] But they are trying to set up a government in Lebanon that can deal with the threat that Hezbollah poses internally to Lebanon. [25:37] And so rather than making their task even harder, you know, work with this new government in Lebanon. [25:44] See how far you can help them to go to disarm Hezbollah, [25:48] to create better conditions for a lasting, secure peace between Lebanon and Israel. [25:56] And for heaven's sakes, rein in the settler violence. [25:59] It is unacceptable. [26:02] The West Bank is filled with people who want a better future for themselves and their families. [26:08] Let's help them with that. [26:09] Let's make it more likely that they could be, you know, allies instead of adversaries. [26:15] But if you're going to continue to blow up their homes and allow people to destroy their olive groves and everything else that is going on now, [26:22] you're just creating the next generation of people who are going to hate what is next door to them in Israel. [26:28] That is no way to try to create a secure Israel going forward. [26:34] Let's accelerate what we need to do in Gaza. [26:37] And, yes, Hamas needs to be disarmed. [26:39] One of the, you know, ongoing challenges is how that is going to be done. [26:43] Let's focus on that. [26:45] But, look, you know, ultimately the Israeli people have to decide who their leaders are. [26:50] And I hope, like the people of Hungary, they realize that, you know, their economy has been, you know, undermined. [26:58] Their unity within Israel has been put at risk. [27:02] Their security and safety is not yet what it needs to be because they have leadership that is not going to, in my view, [27:11] act in the best interests of Israel and the future of Israel. [27:15] So, you know, when you care about people and you care about a country, you want to see the best for them. [27:22] And I think anyone who is criticizing the Netanyahu government has every right to do so. [27:32] But let's not forget that, you know, Israel itself has lived in a very dangerous neighborhood. [27:40] It deserves our support separate and apart from Netanyahu. [27:45] Thank you for this extended and wide-ranging conversation. [27:51] Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. [27:58] Thank you both. [27:58] We appreciate it. [27:59] Next time I'll try to be there in person. [28:02] I always love coming in and talking to you both. [28:04] Take care. [28:06] Bye-bye. [28:06] Anytime. [28:07] Thank you. [28:07] Thank you. [28:08] Take care.