'False Prophet' Samuel Bateman Crumbles on the Stand in Child Abuse Trial

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Thank you, Your Honor. Question number one. [00:00:03] Speaker ?: Are you a religious person? [00:00:06] Speaker 1: Objection and relevance. Sustained. Question number two. Do you feel that you were targeted in this case? [00:00:14] Speaker 2: The fact that objection and relevance was debated about that. Sustained. And the jury is directed to disregard the last answer and the question. [00:00:26] Speaker 1: Question number four. Do you, or excuse me, why is it that the FLDS or members of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-day Saints seem so secretive? Objection. Character, religion, and relevance. Pre-trial motions and orders. Sustained. Has there been any change to the witnesses that were in the trailer in-vehicle in this incident? Objection for the question and relevance. Could you reread the question, Mr. Armstrong? Yes. Has there been any change to the witnesses that were in the trailer and vehicle in this case? Sustained and relevance. Do you meditate before traveling? Objection and relevance. Sustained. When you were stopped, did the Flagstaff Police Department tell you or your passengers anything about the nature of the stop? Objection calls for hearsay. Could you reread the question? When you were stopped by the Flagstaff Police Department, did they tell you or your passengers anything about the nature of the stop? [00:01:46] Speaker 2: The court will allow the question as it pertains only to Mr. Bader? [00:01:51] Speaker 3: Okay, yes. So, they mentioned that they were just going to let us go with a misdemeanor and that it was, we shouldn't do it anymore. They were just going to let us go until Officer Reed showed up and then see if everything seems to change after he got there. [00:02:12] Speaker 1: Question eight. Do you believe that a person's motive, that their mens rea, has anything to do with how a person is judged? Objection. I think this is argument. Better say for closing argument. Sustained. Question number nine. Do you consider yourself an experienced driver? Or a careful person at the moment? [00:02:34] Speaker 3: Yes, I do. Actually, very careful. I try to calculate everything that I do and make sure that there's not an extreme nature. I actually have a lot of experience in driving trucks and trainers for, I would say, several hundred thousand miles. [00:02:58] Speaker 1: Question ten. Do you consider yourself a prophet? Objection, relevance, pretrial motions, sustained. Question eleven. How do you feel about people describing your character? Objection, relevance, sustained. Question twelve. Under what form of belief were you raised, doctor? Objection, relevance, pretrial motions. Question thirteen. Would you consider yourself to be kind and patient? Objection, character, pretrial motions. [00:03:36] Speaker 2: Don't all allow it. Don't allow it. Don't allow it. Don't allow it. [00:03:41] Speaker 3: Yes, I do. I'm an extremely caring person and I'm very patient, caring, and I don't force people to do anything. [00:03:53] Speaker 1: Question fourteen. Why are there very few of your friends at your hearings? Judge, relevance. Sustained. Question fifteen. Under what mindset do you raise your children? Objection, relevance, existing. Question sixteen. Do you care about your friends and family and about the people who are with you on this trip? [00:04:23] Speaker 3: The second day with all my heart and other than more than my own life? [00:04:30] Speaker 1: Question seventeen. Prior to being charged in this case, had you heard of a child abuse case before and what were your beliefs on child abuse? Objection, relevance, sustained. Question eighteen. Are you sympathetic towards children or the underprivileged? [00:04:58] Speaker 3: Objection, relevance, [00:04:59] Speaker 1: character, sustained. Question nineteen. While incarcerated, have you been in a fight or an argument? Objection, relevance, sustained. Question twenty. Would you describe yourself as a strong-willed person or are you gullible? Objection, relevance, sustained. Question twenty-one. Do you believe in letting others make their own choices? Objection, relevance. [00:05:30] Speaker 3: I'll go back. Yes, that's the basis of all that I believe as free agency that everyone choose. I teach them, teach them correct principle that they'll govern themselves. [00:05:43] Speaker 1: Would you consider yourself a charismatic or persuasive person? [00:05:48] Speaker 3: Objection, relevance, sustained. [00:05:51] Speaker 1: Question twenty-three. Are you a deceitful person? [00:05:53] Speaker 3: Objection, relevance, and the court's rules are sustained. [00:05:58] Speaker 1: Question twenty-four. When you left the last gas station that you stopped at, did you know that the girls were up the trailer? I did not. [00:06:12] Speaker 3: What do you get? I apologize. Let me do a further explanation on that. I knew they were in there the whole time, but my plan was when I got on the freeways is to have them hop in the vehicles where they can be seated down because I was concerned about the seventy-five mile an hour speed limits. And I saw Ruth get out of the trailer and head over to a different vehicle. and so I honestly thought that there's nobody in there where else why on earth but I laughed with the doors open. [00:06:46] Speaker 1: Would it ever be your intent to do harm to people? Objection, relevance, character. Sustained. Could you please explain in detail the ten minutes before the stop eventually occurred in Flagstaff on August 28th the day of the incident? [00:07:10] Speaker 3: Yes, I can. So we came from 389 heading south because we were going to Tucson for this Grand Cardinal Conference end. [00:07:18] Speaker ?: Can you just look up? [00:07:19] Speaker 3: Yes, I will. And we stopped with a silver saddle and a gentleman approached us and seemed to be kind of a little bit angry. And so I was already a little bit on the edge and I was like, my goodness, when I hurt that guy. questioning this very firmly. And so I was already thinking because I wanted to give them to vehicles before we hit the freeway. And so I was already planning on that. Then I left thinking that all those girls had got out of the trailer and I was just assuming they closed it. I had no idea they were still back there. Anyway, I headed south on, I think it's 389 until you hit that first. the first road crossroad I'm not sure the names or anything. And there's also a freeway entrance right there. And I turned right and pulled off onto the freeway at about, I think it was actually on the off-ramp when I got the call from Dottie. I'm saying, hey, this door opened. And I was like, what do you do this? And I didn't know if I should pull over it and I didn't know how far it was open or anything. And arriving at that time was when I saw Crosby, they were right up behind me on the corner of the trailer. And so I was already just kind of living on the edge. And I'd also had, I know people may not believe in telethy or whatever you want to call it. But I'd already had some telethy experiences when Mr. Horsley pulled me over that showed me that this was actually coming. They may not believe it, but it's very scientific principles. So I'm just really on the edge. And he pulled over, pulled right behind me, and so I pulled off onto the side of the road. And he pulled in and just like you described, and I pulled off on that first exit off the three-way again. I think it's like one mile or something in between there. And I pulled off on there not because he was falling to me particularly, but because I needed to get those girls the door closed on that trailer. And so jittery, I turned last, and just like he said, I turned last and pulled her over to the right. So it looked like it was pretty no place about it. Anyway, I just pulled around the corner and it seemed like there was a dandy or something. I'm not sure right there. You haul. You haul, yeah, and I pulled into the parking lot. And then just sat there for four or five minutes and Crosby, I think his name is, I pulled in there and just sat there. And then the lights on or anything. and then all a whole bunch of people shut up and the rest you see. [00:10:14] Speaker 1: Question 28, did the girls have phones in the trailer and if so, how many? [00:10:20] Speaker 3: Yes, they did. They had three. I think one of those actually a iPod but they had their phones on the whole time because I traveled anyway but I also was concerned to make sure they're safe. [00:10:39] Speaker 1: During the course of this trip, did you feel that you were under increased mental pressure? Objection notes. What was your mental status at the time that you were pulled over? [00:11:02] Speaker 3: Kind of the last time and the last question. I was just kind of anxious and some of the witnesses have said that I was always anxious around cops but we've kind of been through a lot of experiences in our town and we've had several raids and stuff so pretty much everyone in that town is really reductive when it comes to police officers. By the way, I do appreciate that. When I was here against it's one of those witnesses. [00:11:33] Speaker 1: On your way to Flagstaff, did your group stop for the restroom at all? [00:11:41] Speaker 3: one witness described that I give the restroom but that is not even my nature and I asked my family members last night if they remember that and I just want to make that note. objection to hearsay to strike the last couple statements. [00:11:57] Speaker 2: Sustained the horrible order. The last answer regarding hearsay statements by a family member is stricken. however, the answer in terms of [00:12:10] Speaker ?: Mr. David's [00:12:12] Speaker 2: personal experience [00:12:13] Speaker ?: can be [00:12:14] Speaker 1: considered by the jury. Question 35. Has there been anything in the testimony that you heard during this trial that has surprised you? Direction and relevance. Sustained. Question 36. What are your feelings about the laws of Arizona? Sustained. Do you think that is possible that an individual or organization may have some prejudice against you or the fundamentalist church of Latter-day Saints? Sustained. have you become aware at any point of a so-called vendetta against you from any law enforcement agency or other organization? objection notes. Sustained. Question 39. What are a few of the core teachings of the fundamentalist church of Latter-day Saints? Objection and notes. Sustained. Question 40. Did any of the officers who were seen during the August 28th stop at issue come across as indicative to you? Objection notes. Will you reread the question, Mr. Harvestron? Yes, Your Honor. Did any of the officers who were seen during the August 28th stop seem indicative towards you? And the objection developments? Yes. [00:14:01] Speaker 2: We'll allow you to answer. [00:14:04] Speaker 3: Yes, there seemed to be a really decent area. Like I say, I have nothing against physical surgery. I really appreciate what they are a country with a second family. But I don't want to mention his name, but I asked him several questions and he yelled at me right in the car. Almost like he had a preconceived decision on what he was going to do. [00:14:37] Speaker 1: Question for you too. How was it that the fingers of the alleged victims were sticking out of the door yet the body cam footage viewed at trial shows officers unlatching the door from the outside? [00:14:54] Speaker 3: but this is my belief is that you can't that the vertical pipe going up the trailer door, I don't know if you have experience with trailers, but you can latch the bottom door, excuse me, the bottom latch, and you have to be pretty tough to get that to stretch that one inch line to band and get it to close on the top. I'm sure many of you have that experience, so there's just a discrepancy between the testimony and the radio cam, the body cam stuff, it's just not matching. I mean, I'm sure that their fingers were sticking out, we already know that, I have a knowledge of that. So I'm just a little bit reluctant to believe all the video cam stuff, and yeah, I'll just agree with that. [00:15:46] Speaker 1: During the August 14th stop that occurred in Mojave County involving the alleged victims riding as passengers in a UTV, why did you appear to be confused when you were contacted by law enforcement? [00:16:07] Speaker 3: And it's because I was confused. I had no idea those girls were back there. They said that, they asked me, and they might have. I just forgot. And I was so busy organizing everything because I'm the driver. And when he said, can you fit them in the front, I was just like, I was completely and totally shocked. Because I thought he was talking about the 10 to 10 of those motorbikes on the back, that were strapped down the back. And so I was just like, why on earth would you stick some motorbikes in the front? Anyway, so I turned to a gnomes, and she says, those girls are in the back. Your gnomes are in the middle of somebody else. Maybe girls, I forget them. She says, those girls are in the back. And I was just like, oh my, it is a mess. So I'm angry. [00:17:01] Speaker 1: Do you have any additional thoughts or feelings about that stop? [00:17:07] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. I decided, never mind. I decided not to answer that question. Because I didn't know it was open, and I didn't know they were there in the back there, because I thought I saw them get in the other vehicle just like I wanted when they got on the highway or got near the highway. [00:17:40] Speaker 1: Question 48, what was the, what, or what were the items in the trailer for? Did the girls that were in the caravan on the day of August 28th ever confide in you over things? Objection roads sustained. Question 51, did you make the girls that were in the caravan aware that they had a choice regarding where they would be riding during the trip? [00:18:39] Speaker 3: I didn't actually persuade tell them, but I just thought they knew my nature, that they can reject anything that I suggest, anything. They might have believed they didn't have a choice, but they absolutely did. Just because they look at me like I'm, they did, look at me like a special or whatever you want to call it. [00:19:01] Speaker 1: Question 52, did the mothers of the three girls that were in the trailer live with you? [00:19:09] Speaker 3: Yes, they did, well, no one of them, well, I used to live in the same house as the third one that I used to live in the house. And yes, the two mothers of the two girls did live in the house, the same house with you. [00:19:21] Speaker 1: Question 53, have you ever had a psycho-evaluation? Objection analysis sustained. Question 54, do you share your teachings with any outside of your family and friends? [00:19:37] Speaker 3: Yes, my two. I'm a strong believer in the law of attraction and science and mixing the two, so I'd like to share it with everyone. [00:19:55] Speaker 1: Before the two stops that occurred in the month of August in 2022, did you have any criminal history? Yes, restriction, relevance, and striking. Sustained and stricken. Question 56, is it common to have people on side-by-sides or UTVs in Colorado City or so? [00:20:21] Speaker 3: It is probably the most common thing, common place in the world to have stuff like that happen. It's just, it's just how we grew up. We don't, yeah, there's literally dozens of people in the world. Yeah, there's literally dozens and dozens of people in the side-by-sides that drive around every day and motorbikes with little helmets and, I don't know, there's just probably because there's a lot of children in that town. And so we do a lot of that stuff just by default. So it's kind of, kind of our history a little bit. [00:20:53] Speaker 1: Question 59, how far is it from the Wendy's to where you were pulled over? 4.3 miles. Question 61, what were the purposes for the phone calls between you and others in the group? [00:21:19] Speaker 3: Well, mainly just so we could talk. Like I said, I'm a mentor. I spent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars on being mentored by other people concerning businesses and mindset. And so that's what I do is I mentor people and encourage them and teach them. And so that's what I do most of the time. And by the way, if somebody wanted to reject what I teach, they'd, they'd know very well they could. And I won't get angry at them at all. So that's what it was for. And also in this case, it was for safety because those girls were back there. [00:21:59] Speaker 1: Question 63, or excuse me, 62. Generally, did you give your family the right to reject your instructions? [00:22:09] Speaker 3: Absolutely. And many of them could say that I often voiced, if you don't want to be here, if you don't want to go with me, if you don't want to do anything, you're welcome to the neighbor right now. They all know that very well. [00:22:23] Speaker 1: Question 63, previous witnesses have mentioned that you may have seen paranoid or on edge about potential law enforcement contact. Why is that? [00:22:35] Speaker 3: Yes, like a privacy state in our town has had very, a whole lot of raids, literally. In 2008 we had a big raid in Texas where they brought their tanks up to our temple door and smacked the door down. [00:22:51] Speaker 2: - What are the moments with the striking answer? - Sustained, the court will strike the previous answers to our event. - So continue. - No, your honor. [00:23:03] Speaker ?: - Your honor, can he re-answer the questions as the question itself was enough to do? [00:23:08] Speaker 1: - Re-read the question, go ahead. - Yes, sir. - Previous, or excuse me, previous witnesses have testified that you seem paranoid or on edge about possible law enforcement contact. Why is that? [00:23:22] Speaker 3: - Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, Officer Orsley stopped. I hadn't had telepathic experience. And it was my subconscious mind, I guess, contacted his. I'm not sure how it all works, but, and I know it's, I know many of you have the same experience, but they showed me that they were trying to stack my charges so they could get me in prison. Anyway, then when we stopped at Silver Saddle, that informant was kind of angry and he walks up and he starts kind of yelling at us, like, "Where are you from?" And so I was like, "Oh my goodness. "They're gonna call somebody," so I was already on edge. So that's, that's, that's the turn is annoying. [00:24:04] Speaker 1: Question 64, "Was there extra space in any of the other vehicles in the caravan?" Yes, absolutely, they could have all failed in a different vehicle, they just, yeah, [00:24:17] Speaker 3: they tows right back there and I had a word to get my consent. [00:24:24] Speaker 1: Question 65, "Is it generally the rule that what you say goes for those who are riding along in your caravan?" [00:24:34] Speaker 3: Yes, it is, but not by my choice. It's, they respect me and love me, but it's definitely not because I tell them, that everybody else I hear you're gonna be damned and throw the hell and all that other stuff. [00:24:49] Speaker 1: Question 66, "For how long were you on the highway on the stop that occurred on August 14th, involving the side-by-side and what were the speed limits on those roads?" Okay, "Okay, it was approximately one mile before the road turned off on a really, quite a small county road." And then the second part of that question, "What were the speed limits on those roads?" [00:25:29] Speaker 3: Um, 55, and when you turn off the county road, I think it was 35 or 45, it kind of switched back into corporate, sometimes 25 around the corner. [00:25:42] Speaker 1: Question 67, "How much experience do you have as a driver?" [00:25:46] Speaker 3: Um, I guess I mentioned that earlier, but I have literally hundreds of thousands of miles of driving experience, driving heavy traitors on stoves, like 40, 40 stoves at a time, behind this large gooseneck, or on this gooseneck truck, or trailer, behind a big Dodge truck and many other port trucks, so I have much experience with more traitors. [00:26:09] Speaker 1: Question 68, "Given that there were many other adults on this trip, are you aware why you were the only one arrested in this case?" Question 69, "Objection, relevance, sustained." Question 69, "Several of the witnesses saying that you didn't pull over immediately after you were told by occupants of the trailer, that there were in fact people in the trailer and issues with the door, why do you think they are serving that you didn't pull over right away?" [00:26:45] Speaker 3: Question 69, "I don't know, but I did pull over to that kid once I got that call, I did feel like it was safe at the time, and also because I was so paranoid about that truck behind me, I didn't just pull over to the shoulder immediately because I could see that freeway exit just ahead, not too far, so I was going to pull up on that exit. And so, yeah, like I've already stated, I pulled on and then Crosby pulled on beyond the exit. And then I pulled back on the highway and then pulled off right on the exit. He backed up down the shoulder and followed me into the exit. Yeah, I forget the name of the exit, whatever it was and what all the road names are." [00:27:39] Speaker 1: Question 70, "Was it your intention to continue down the freeway past Flagstaff, pulling the trailer with the alleged victims inside?" [00:27:52] Speaker 3: No, I haven't. [00:27:54] Speaker 1: Question 71, "Does your family ever suggest places to go where things to do?" [00:28:01] Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. [00:28:05] Speaker 1: Question 73, "We observed some length of black material hanging from the left trailer door in Exhibition 59 from the state. What was that material?" [00:28:23] Speaker 3: Yeah, that was the seal, just like Anderson said. But I read back, I've actually read into that trailer before, just, I don't know, I don't even remember what it was for. But I wrote back there, and there's, it's definitely not real good ventilation, but there is ventilation for sure. And there's enough, there's enough air flow. There is a little bit of circulation to where it's not extremely, extremely hot. We can't stand it, but, yeah. But that's what the phone was for, because I was just expecting them to tell me, you know, if they have an issue. I'd pull over and we'd fix everything. That's what the phones are for, half of the reason. [00:29:01] Speaker 1: Question 74, "What is your driving experience?" [00:29:05] Speaker 3: Objection, relevance, character. [00:29:06] Speaker 1: Sustained. Question 75, "What has been your experience and occupation?" Objection, relevance, character. Sustained. And no further questions. All right. Cross-examination. Thank you, Judge. Good afternoon. Can you hear me again? You can. Okay. I want to talk to you. Can you hear me again? [00:29:20] Speaker ?: Can you hear me again? I can. [00:29:22] Speaker 1: Okay. I want to talk to you. Can you hear me again? Can you hear me again? Can you hear me again? Can you hear me again? [00:29:28] Speaker ?: I can. Okay. [00:29:30] Speaker 3: Okay. I want to talk to you. about statements you've made about this case. And I want to start with talking about your opening statement. Do you stand by your opening statement? I'm probably worded it wrong. Okay. Do you stand by the claims that you've made in your opening statement? I'm not sure what to say. All I know is I do not want to harm anyone on the face of the whole earth. I don't even like harm the animals or bugs. So I don't know why I would harm a person. [00:30:08] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:30:09] Speaker 3: Why don't I ask you about some of the statements that you made. So you said no big statements that I shouldn't have done it. Do you agree with that? I'm not going to agree with that. Okay. You described the situation with girls being in the trailer as dangerous. Do you agree with that? Did I say dangerous? I don't remember. But I don't want to, I forget what the word is. I don't want to get myself in trouble to the law. So I'm not going to agree with it. You described what you did as being dumb. Do you agree with that? Yeah, I did. It was as smart as I could have been, for sure. You said that the girls begged to be back there? They did. And you let them go back there? Reluctantly. Very reluctantly, yeah. But you gave permission. I did. You gave approval. Not approval. [00:31:23] Speaker ?: Absolutely not approval. [00:31:24] Speaker 3: Not one bit of approval. I gave permission. But those girls were in your care? Um, I, you could argue that. They're in their mother's care. By the time, you were the adult that was with them, correct? And so, their mother was right behind us in their vehicles. You were on the phones with the girls the entire time they were in the trailer? I don't think so, pretty much. Except for in splotchy places where the trailer was supposed to get. And you said knowing that the girls were used to running in the trailer? I think a lot, yeah. And you just said that you rode the trailer? Yeah. On dergoes, a home in the backwoods, in the boonies. Yeah. And you said knowing that the girls liked to do those things? Mm-hmm. Okay. And you, you would allow it? Just on the whole dergoes. This was the first time we'd ever done them, absolutely, on the freeway, on the highway. At least I can remember them, and I'm not going to have the time, I sure don't remember them. In one of your questions to law enforcement, you characterized this situation as being extremely dangerous. I don't remember it. I don't know why I would have said that. It seemed like I would have done things here. Would you agree that as the driver tried pulling the trailer, this situation and the trailer and the girls was your responsibility? Yeah. And you knew they were back there, and you continued on your way with them back there for hours? I did. And that included, you're in the Flagstaff area? Yeah, only because I didn't know they were back there. Once I could get Flagstaff, I wanted them to hop in the other vehicles and put their seat belts on. But they were back there when you were on Interstate 40 in Flagstaff, correct? Yeah, but I promise you, I didn't know they were there. But they were there, you knew they were there when you were on Highway 89, correct? Yeah, I did. I'm a little confused, so you learned that they were back, you knew they were back the entire time, and you also didn't intend to continue that way past Flagstaff. You just testified. Help me understand. Okay, I realize I probably didn't describe it real well, but, yeah, so we'd come to 389, stopped with Sower Saddle, and I'm not sure why, but we pulled into the station right south of Wendy's. I forget what it is, the little C store from there. And I think I went in, and they went in, and then I thought they'd come back out and close the door, because I saw a girl in the vehicle, and I thought all the other girls had gone to their vehicle, because I thought that was, I'd already described it, that's the plan. And so then I headed out, and I didn't realize that there was girls still in there doing stuff in the trailer, and the trailer door was open, because you forgot to close it, that's what they told me. And so I headed out, and then I got to the freeway entrance, and I was just like right on the freeway, on the entrance, on the freeway, when I got a phone call. So I'm just like, I'm just kind of peeing out, and all of a sudden this gentleman, Crosby, came up behind me, and just kind of freaked me out. I was like, I really wasn't even thinking straight, but I got off as far as fast as I could, and I accident the freeway, but Crosby falls and ran into where I went, and went to the parking lot, across the street from the U-Haul. And you're aware, you're aware that at that point, in that area, the girls did get out of the trailer? Do you mean after you stopped? After you stopped, yeah. Oh, I knew they were in there long before that, because they phone called me. Okay, there's just this kind of mysterious time period, by I-40, where you don't know if they were in there or not. Um, yeah, there's, I know there's, well like I said, it's right when I was getting off of, or I should, or I believe, side all day. It's when I was entering the freeway, that's when I got the phone call, and so I didn't have time to really do anything. 'Cause I can't, I was like, I thought, you know, I'm gonna pull off right on the side, but there's, there's no work pull off until you get quite a ways down into the freeway. And that's just like, right at the time, he pulled right behind me, you know, on the corner of the trailer. And I'd already had that, you know, kind of freaked out with that guy that came up to us and started asking questions. About, you know, where are you from, what are you doing? And so, I just pulled off, as soon as I could, and I could see up ahead that there was an exit, and that's his head through that exit. And, like I said, I just freaked out, pulled off to the side, he pulled over beyond the exit, and stopped. And so I pulled onto the freeway a little bit, and then pulled off on the exit. And, yeah, so this time I didn't know they were back then, so I was trying to get off this clip of the head. It just seems a bit retarded to me to continue on running off the door trouble. So, well, I just didn't mind it. And on that note, I guess, from your opening statements, you said, "It was dumb. I shouldn't have done it. I already know." Yeah, but I didn't say that on the freeway. It was going down these very, very slow roads where I could pull off. I could slow down as slow as I wanted. It wasn't a lot of traffic. I guess what I'm saying is there's nothing in the whole world that's more important to me than my family and those that I care about. Nothing. And so you agree that it was your responsibility to keep those girls safe that day? Yeah, I do. And you describe yourself as an experienced driver. Does that include trucks or trailers? I do. And wouldn't you agree that as a driver of a truck with a trailer, it's your responsibility, both the passengers and the cargo? Yes. Your responsibility to know who's in your truck cab? Yes, it is, although I didn't always do it because of my people. Yeah. And your responsibility to know who's in the trailer that you're going? [00:38:11] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:38:12] Speaker 3: Or what cargo's in there? Yes. And that was true on August 22nd? It was your responsibility? August 28th? Sorry, August, yes, August 28th of 2022, I apologize. And August 28th of 2023, that was your responsibility for that? Yes, it was. If you knew that it was unsafe, why did you let the girls be in the trailer? I just really didn't think it was really unsafe. Maybe just a little bit because I knew that it was a little hot back there and the ventilation wasn't very good. But I've driven, like I say, several hundred thousand miles. I've never had any accidents that were my fault. I've been in several accidents. And so I just trusted myself as a driver. And also whether people like it or not, I ask John to let me every time we hop in that vehicle. You testified that the items in the trailer were for camping and for picnic, correct? No, that's right. Were the reclining chairs, the couch, was after camping and picnic? You know what? I had no clue what those were doing in there. I really don't know. I didn't even know they were there until after the picture showed up. Because somebody put them in there when I wasn't watching. Someone put a big recliner, a reclining chair in there when you were watching? I didn't know. Yeah, but you have to realize that this trailer was parked at our home in Short Creek in Colorado City Arizona. I parked there. The thing you need to realize, please, is that this is a huge family. This is 40 people. And for one of them, a family that I can even try to keep track of things, it's a big experience. So, yeah, I just can't keep track of everything. And I, yeah. Well, it sounds like you're aware of a lot of picnicking and camping things being back there, but just somehow the recliner and chairs escaped you? Yeah, I did. Well, when you went right back there, where would you sit? I don't know, I only did it once, and I wouldn't sit. I was standing. You would stand the chair? Yeah, I was just, I know it was probably empty. I mean, you can empty a chair, but you don't have to have all that stuff. And it only takes yourself in actually several minutes or seconds to do all the stuff. And the one time I did do it, it was standing. As an experienced rider, do you think that's a good idea? Yeah, I do, actually. I just wanted to see how it got back there. And you have to realize this isn't on the highway, this is on dirt roads. And which was about 99% of all the stuff we did was on dirt roads. It was side by side, so we had motorbikes, and so we'd drive on these dirt roads. We'd go out to Coral Peak Sand Dunes and drive them around. I mean, it's one thing for you as an adult to feel like it's okay for you as an adult to be standing back there. Don't you feel like it's a little different with young girls? It's a little different. Well, if you care about them so much as you've been testifying them, why don't you put them in that dangerous situation? Because they asked, and you were in charge, and you made a decision, and you let them sit back there. I did. You must be mistaken me when I say I care about them. I have a heartfelt care for them, and it's worth my life. And I don't know, have you ever had a child to ask you for something that wasn't working for them, and they cried or whatever? Okay. Let me ask you about the phones real quick, and so you talked about you being in constant communication. Were there times when the calls would drop? Yeah, there's quite a few places where they did drop, but it's not for very long. [00:42:29] Speaker ?: It's only for a few minutes usually. [00:42:30] Speaker 3: When the calls would drop, would you immediately try to get back on the phone with them again? Absolutely. [00:42:34] Speaker ?: 100%. [00:42:35] Speaker 3: And then have them done this trip and obviously? Absolutely. And every other trip. Did you instruct the girls not to get out of the trailer? No. Did you imply so? Yeah, I probably did, yeah. Just because the cops were there, I didn't want to create a big scene. [00:43:02] Speaker 2: No other questions. The first is, once you were notified by phone the trailer door was not fully locked, why did you not immediately pull over? [00:43:15] Speaker 3: Because I was smashed into the guardrail of the off-ramp. [00:43:20] Speaker 2: Next, did you take the trailer because there was no room for the girls in the cars? Absolutely not. There may not have been plenty around, but there was no room for everyone. Why was the trailer taken on this trip since you weren't camping? [00:43:44] Speaker 3: Um, several reasons because it's just nice to have all that different stuff when you have such a large group of people. And also when you're traveling with children, I'm sure you didn't have children and all that. Um, when a child needs a potty break, then you can't always find a convenience store. So we took that, that's what the water body was for. [00:44:05] Speaker 2: Did the girls' parents know they were traveling in a trailer across state? Um, I think all of them did, but maybe one. When you got the call that the door was broke, were you surprised that girls were still in there, or did you think they were calling from another car? [00:44:32] Speaker 3: No, I was shocked as it could possibly be. I had no idea they were in there. I actually got panicked. [00:44:39] Speaker 2: When you got off the freeway, why didn't you stop right away at a gas station? [00:44:47] Speaker 3: There wasn't any gas stations between that, where I exited off of, I forget the side street there as you come on 389. [00:44:57] Speaker 2: Why did you drive farther before stopping? [00:45:02] Speaker 3: Because, uh, it was literally only one mile that I was driving. And I turned off on, like I said, I don't know the, I don't know the exits. But I exited, and then I just made all right corners, and it was literally only, from the stoplight, maybe several hundred feet, but I was taking right hand turns, so I didn't have to cross through the traffic. And then I just pulled into, made another right hand turn to the parking lot where I parked. [00:45:38] Speaker 2: So, you said that you are very experienced when it comes to operating a vehicle with a trailer. Even before arriving at Silver Saddle, you operated a truck and trailer on highway speed roads for an extended period of time. Do you believe that if there were children in that trailer, those children would not be subjected to an unsafe situation? [00:46:11] Speaker 3: Um, that is kind of an interesting question, but because I was the driver, and I felt like I had so much experience, I didn't feel like they were in great danger, but under normal circumstances, yeah, absolutely. Because I would slow down over any dangerous things, dangerous places, or bumps, or anything of that nature. [00:46:32] Speaker 2: If you didn't know that there was a couch in the trailer, where did you expect the girls to sit after you gave them permission to ride in the trailer? [00:46:45] Speaker 3: Um, like I said, I was just a busy, busy person, and I didn't really think about it, but we did have chairs back there all the time. So I was just, like, probably just subconsciously felt like it's in on the chairs. [00:46:59] Speaker ?: I should have thought about it, but I didn't. [00:47:01] Speaker 2: Did you look in the trailer or make any attempt to secure items or make it safe for them in any way? I don't think I did. Why did you need to take a trailer to an event of which you were going to? [00:47:26] Speaker 3: One, we're lucky to different things. Uh, the generator, 'cause we like to stop at the movies and have lunch a lot of times. Um, for the gasoline, for, um, the port-a-potties. Just, just basically extra space to haul things in. [00:47:47] Speaker 2: Why didn't you pull over on the freeway? [00:47:52] Speaker 3: Um, probably a couple reasons why. I don't know exactly what I was thinking. But, one of them was, is... Uh, that's right when Crosby came up behind me, so I was kind of a little bit panicking, wondering why he was just stopping, or following me right on the corner of the trailer. And, at the same time, I was on the phone, so I knew that it was open, 'cause those girls' hands were out of the door. So, I think it was kind of overwhelmed. Probably why they just pulled up on the, but I could look up and see an exit, so I pulled up on the exit, the first exit. [00:48:30] Speaker 2: Do you see yourself as the adult ultimately responsible for the minors under your care, or do you think someone else of legal age on this trip was responsible for the decision to allow kids in the trailer? Um, yeah, I do. I'm going to continue myself as responsible. Does the state have any follow-up questions based upon the jurors' questions? [00:48:57] Speaker 3: Yes, Judge. So, the generator and gas tank, it sounds like there was gas in the gas tank? I have no idea. Well, it tells me that you would use it for stops or camping and things, and so wouldn't it make sense there would be gas in the gas tank for the generator? That's why, if you want to know how it's true, I really didn't have a clue what was back there. I did check it. Doesn't it seem a little bit irresponsible to not know if there's gas in the gas tank when there's girls inside? Uh, it might be. I might have good for sure. You had booked an Airbnb for this trip, correct? I had. Or, almost for this time. So, what's the point of a generator and gas tank? Um, for when we stopped for lunch on the way, in the movies, with trees and forests and stuff. That's what we did. You would need to use the generator and gas tank to prepare lunch? Um, often, yeah. We use it for, uh, I don't remember what we use it for, we just carry it with us. What kind of stove or device were you powering with the generator? Uh, I don't know. I don't remember. I just know we always carry the generator with us because that's what we did have happened. You were asked about not stopping sooner. And, you agreed there are gas stations along Highway D9 on the route that you took in the Flagstaff area? Yes. Past Silver Saddle Center? Yes. Gas stations and restaurants? Yes. The Flagstaff Mall? I don't know. I really don't know. Okay. And when you turned on to Country Club, is it your position there were no gas stations to stop at on Country Club? I had no idea they were back there when I was on Country Club. You didn't see the gas stations ahead of you as you approached I-40 on Country Club? No, I had no idea they were back there. I thought they got out and got into different vehicles like we'd already talked about prior to this experience. When you got in I-40, you didn't notice the signs along the road talking about upcoming gas stations or restaurants? There was only like- it's only like one mile from where I pulled off of Country Club on the freeway to the exit to a mile, maybe two. When you got up by I-40 on the plot where you didn't notice any gas stations there? Yes, we were there across the street. I had to go close to the traffic and wait through traffic. So I kept turning right, clear, and then into the parking lot where I parked. I just kept it right and turned so I didn't have to go through traffic and leave. Because I was a little concerned that they- they don't might come up with further. I was really concerned. You didn't notice the gas station on the right after the exit? I don't remember a gas station. I had a total of them. I must be- if there's one there, then I must have been so concerned about that gas home that I didn't even see it. What about restaurant parking lots? It must be way different than I remember because I don't remember anything. I just kept turning right until I pulled into the parking lot. I turned left because- well, first. And then I turned right just like Charles Beasay and I got clear across the traffic because that guy dropped behind me. And I knew those girls would go back down to the normal ones, so I was kind of scared. I just kept turning right and kept turning back into the parking lot and parked. Okay, so you drove past the subway restaurant as well? I don't remember anything. You missed the McDonald's? I don't remember anything other than- I just parked as quick as I can- what I felt like as quick and safe as I could. Well, it seems like you went past an awful lot of businesses, gas stations, and restaurants. Oh, it might have seemed that way to you, but it didn't for me. It seemed like I tried stopping the click of that kid. What I'm saying is I care about those people more than my life. I'm not trying to harm them. Were you just so paranoid about police that you didn't notice all of those businesses? I think I must have paid anything else. [00:53:04] Speaker 2: Why did you tie down- why did you tie down the five gallon jugs of water? [00:53:12] Speaker 3: I didn't tie them down. I didn't know they were tied down. Someone else probably did. You have to realize that, like I said, there's so many people in this group. And it's just- it's very difficult for me to keep track of the reason it goes on. And I may- yeah. [00:53:32] Speaker 2: Next. As an experienced driver, why did he not check the cargo trailer himself? I should have. Why did he not lock the cargo door himself? [00:53:54] Speaker ?: I should have. Is that part of an experienced driver's responsibility? [00:54:02] Speaker 2: If nothing was wrong in your view of things, why were you so paranoid? [00:54:15] Speaker 3: If I'm wrong is an interesting question. The part of the reason I was paranoid, because the first stop that I had when I had that telepathic experience, whatever you want to call it. And also the 911 caller, I think is who it was, came up and he was a little bit frustrated. And I said, "Where did you get from? What are you doing?" And so that got me kind of paranoid. And I knew- I knew that some- some police officers would have a problem with being a trigger, even though I did look on the internet. And I typed- or- or maybe I asked somebody to do it. Maybe I asked Brad or somebody to do it. To see if it's illegal to- for people to write a trigger. No objection to strike. Or sorry, objection to strike. Excuse me. [00:55:06] Speaker 2: Sustained is to the last portion of the answer, and that portion is stricken from the record. [00:55:13] Speaker 3: I got it, I appreciate that, I see. Um, in- in other words, we- we looked on Google to see if- Ejection. Sustained. [00:55:24] Speaker 2: Can you explain to me what I- what I'm doing wrong? You know. If nothing was wrong in your view of things, why were you so paranoid? [00:55:34] Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't know. I was just paranoid because, like I say, the- the witness, the seller sat over, walked up and asked us these questions quite, you know, emphatically. Where are you- where are you guys from? What are you doing? So it kind of scared me a little bit. Um, and also the fact that they had called me and were on the phone. And, um, um, I was concerned about- [00:56:04] Speaker ?: The people between there were thinking. [00:56:06] Speaker 2: All right, thank you. And does the state have any follow-up questions that they wish to ask in response to those last jury questions? [00:56:14] Speaker 3: Sure, this mysterious individual, what were they confronting you about? Mysterious individual, what were you- this person at the Silver Saddle Center, what were they confronting you about? Oh, I don't know, I just saw him in the rearview mirror and I could see his facial expressions and he was talking to one of the girls. So I really don't know what he was asking. But they just told the neighbor that, hey, he was asking, what are we doing, where are we from? Um, you know, what are- something they did with their dresses or some type of thing. Do you think he's concerned about the girls taking the trailer? Um, yes, but at that time, they wanted them to trailer. They were- well, excuse me. They were driving and parked. They were getting in and out, getting stuff out of the trailer. Because that's where we stored all our stuff. [00:56:56] Speaker ?: Okay.