Face the Nation: Sanders, Bhattacharya, Sganga

[0:00] And we turn now to Vermont Independent Senator Bernie Sanders who joins us from Burlington. [0:06] Good morning to you Senator Sanders. Good morning. We are 86 days away from the midterms. [0:14] Tuesday in Minnesota progressive candidate Peggy Flanagan the current Lieutenant Governor who you [0:19] have endorsed is taking on a more moderate candidate Angie Craig. Do you think this is [0:24] going to be a similar dynamic to Michigan where this was a tight race? I think it's going to be [0:32] a tight race. I hope very much that Peggy wins. I think what we're seeing in Minnesota, Margaret, [0:38] in Michigan and all across this country is that people understand that we're living with an economy [0:45] that is rigged. You have working families, 60 percent of our people living paycheck to paycheck. [0:52] People can't afford groceries, housing, health care, basic necessities of life. And at the same time [0:58] they're seeing the richest people in this country become even richer. People are tired of the status [1:04] quo politics and establishment policies. They want real change. And Peggy Flanagan is about bringing [1:10] about real change, standing up to the big money interest. There is a reason why the super PACs and [1:16] the billionaires are flooding Minnesota with all kinds of money. Same thing as Michigan. They don't [1:21] want somebody to stand up for the working class in Minnesota. But you still are confident Flanagan's [1:27] going to pull this off. I'm sorry? You are confident Flanagan will win? No, I'm not confident. I think [1:36] it's going to be a very, very close race. Okay. I think she's being outspent seven to one. And under [1:42] those circumstances, it's tough for anybody to win. But she has a good ground game. I know she has a lot [1:47] of grassroots support and I'll do everything that I can to see that she does win. Okay. I know that you [1:53] haven't gotten involved in many governor's races with the exception of Maine, but Democratic Socialist [1:59] Francesca Hong in Wisconsin is expected to win her Democratic primary. There's been some [2:06] attention to some of her social media posts recently, but she has this platform of free child [2:11] care, state run grocery stores, more health care subsidies. She wants to raise income taxes on [2:16] millionaires. Some of this does seem to align with your platform. So I'm wondering, you know, [2:23] why don't you support her? Is some of what she supports too extreme for you? [2:27] No, but raising taxes on the rich, making sure that everybody in Wisconsin or America has health [2:36] care as a right sounds quite reasonable to me. I just look, we have a limited number of races that [2:42] we can be involved in. Most of my focus on is getting people elected to the United States Senate, [2:48] getting people elected to the House of Representatives. So with one exception, [2:53] we have not been involved in a governor's race. Not somebody who I've known in Maine for many, [2:58] many years. Who is now running for the Senate in Maine. That's right. That's right. [3:06] There was in Michigan, this historic turnout, but the race was closer than many had expected. Dr. Abdul [3:15] Al-Sayed, former public health official, he did win by just one point. Since that time, [3:23] President Trump has said he's happy that he won because he's going to be an easier candidate [3:28] to defeat, basically, is what he's implying. And The Economist has polling, showing the party's [3:34] victory probability has fallen to 48%, putting Democrats' chances of controlling the Senate at 49%. [3:41] Obviously, you want to resist that projection. What's your strategy on a coalition here? [3:50] Well, I look at that analysis a little bit differently. Margaret, in Michigan, in my view, [3:58] Abdul's victory was one of the most extraordinary victories in modern political history. You tell me, [4:03] have you ever heard of a candidate winning who was outspent nine to one? $60 million in billionaire-funded [4:14] super PAC money came into that race, half from AIPAC, and yet he managed to win. Now, I think what we are [4:22] seeing all over this country, from coast to coast, is that working people are sick and tired of being the [4:29] only major country on earth that does not guarantee health care to all people as a human right? They're [4:36] sick and tired of massive income and wealth inequality. Who believes? Now, I know we don't [4:40] discuss this much in Congress or in the media, but nobody that I know thinks it makes sense that one [4:46] man in America today, Mr. Musk, owns more wealth than the bottom half of American society. Who believes [4:51] that we should sustain and maintain a corrupt campaign finance system where billionaires are undermining [4:57] American democracy? The reason that we're going to win is people, whether you're conservative or [5:03] Democrat, tired of the status quo and of the massive levels of inequality that exists right now. [5:09] You have written a letter that was shared with us to Democratic leaders in Congress and the DNC [5:16] calling for public funding of elections and for the party to prohibit political action committees [5:22] from participating in primary races. I understand your principled argument here. However, Democrats have [5:29] a financial resource problem that is very real as compared to Republicans and their war chest. [5:36] Why would the party disarm? We're not talking about disarmment. We're talking about within the [5:45] Democratic primary, not in the general election. The campaign finance system today is corrupt. In Michigan, [5:52] what you had is AIPAC spending $30 million in the Democratic primary trying to defeat Abdul. They lost. [6:01] And now they're saying, we're going to support this guy, Rogers, who was a Republican. So what you are [6:07] seeing is it doesn't matter whether you're a Democrat or Republican, the special interest, and it's not [6:11] just AIPAC, it's the AI people, it's crypto. They will take over the primaries and try to get their point of view [6:19] through, get their special interest accomplished, regardless of which party is. So to me, it is insane [6:26] that the Democrats would allow somebody to come in, an entity to come in that will then, if they lose, [6:31] go into the other party. Okay. We need to talk more about this, but I have to [6:35] pay our bills here and take a break. So please stay with us, Senator Sanders. We'll be right back. [6:46] Welcome back to Face the Nation. We return now to our conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders. Senator, [6:51] before the break, we were talking about your concern about super PACs and their involvement in [6:57] primaries. You said you don't want Democrats to unilaterally disarm. Just to clarify, you highlighted [7:04] $60 million poured into Michigan to defeat Dr. Al-Sayed. Half of it came from AIPAC. They are now saying [7:16] they're going to support the Republican in the general, which you also pointed out. Are you okay [7:23] with Democrats accepting PAC money in the general, but not in the primary? Look, in the world that we [7:30] live in, until we get rid of Citizens United and get rid of super PACs and move to public funding of [7:35] elections, that is the reality. You can't allow Democratic candidates to be outspent 50 to one, [7:40] but it is a corrupt campaign finance system. And Democrats can take charge of what takes place [7:46] within their own primaries right now. General election can't. But within primaries, Democrats [7:52] can get super PACs out. That's what they should do. I want to focus in on AIPAC in particular, [7:59] because Dr. Al-Sayed campaigned on this platform of cutting unconditional aid to countries, not just [8:05] Israel. He said Egypt, the country his parents immigrated from, cut it to Jordan, cut it to Pakistan, [8:09] cut it to Saudi Arabia. He listed a number of countries and Israel. His mention of Israel and the war in [8:16] Gaza has drawn a lot of criticism. President Trump said it's hate of Jewish people. When you speak, [8:24] I know you are very specific in referring to the right-wing government of Benjamin Netanyahu, [8:30] the prime minister. Would you advise Dr. Al-Sayed and other progressive candidates to speak in a way [8:37] that doesn't invite as much criticism? Look, I think Abdul has run a brilliant campaign, [8:45] and he's more than capable of making his own political judgments. But I think, [8:53] Margaret, all over the country, people are deeply concerned that when we have so many problems at [9:00] home, we have people sleeping out in the streets, people can't afford health care, we are spending [9:06] billions and billions of dollars on the right-wing extremist Netanyahu government, which has done [9:12] horrific things to the Palestinian people. People, many people, experts, including myself, [9:17] consider what's going on there as a genocide. And I think whether you're a Democrat, Republican, [9:22] conservative, progressive, we don't think that we should be continuing to fund an extremist government [9:27] like that. Some MAGA candidates also make that argument, but this is a real attack line being [9:33] focused on Dr. Al-Sayed in particular. Well, let's be clear. I mean, from Trump on down, [9:41] you know, you have Trump, who is in many ways an authoritarian type, and he is going to go after [9:50] Al-Sayed because, you know, for racist reasons, I think their first announcement after Abdul one is, [9:58] he is a Muslim and was all supposed to hate Muslims. You know, these guys have nothing to say about the [10:05] major crises facing our country. All they could do is appeal to racism, we're communists, you know, [10:11] all kinds of nonsense like that. But I think that at the end of the day, the people of Michigan [10:17] understand that the status quo is not working. We need a candidate like Abdul has the guts to stand [10:23] up for working class families. This guy wrote a book, he's a doctor, on Medicare for all. The [10:29] current health care system is broken. We've got to guarantee health care to all people. Abdul [10:34] understands that and will help us move in that direction. Senator Sanders, we'll leave it there. [10:39] We're going to talk about health care next with Dr. Jay Bhattacharya. So we'll continue that part of [10:44] the conversation. We'll be right back. We're joined now by the director of the National Institutes of [10:50] Health, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya. Good morning to you, doctor. Good morning. And we should mention, [10:55] you're also helping to run the CDC until the new director is sworn in as well. Until next Wednesday, [11:01] yes. Until next Wednesday. So let me ask you about a number of things that I think people at home are [11:07] worried about, particularly around the food supply. The cyclospora outbreak linked to iceberg lettuce [11:12] from Mexico is now in 15 states. There were two deaths this week due to it. Yesterday, USDA issued [11:19] an alert for a range of products that may have salmonella, including meat and poultry. 27 states [11:26] are affected by salmonella, possibly linked to jalapenos, but cilantro, red onion, avocado, [11:31] also listed in a CDC notice. Albertsons, a grocery store, just recalled some items. There's risk of [11:38] salmonella and eggs in Texas, according to the CDC. And then you have the screwworm outbreak affecting [11:43] beef. This is overwhelming for someone going into a grocery store right now. Why do they seem out of [11:49] control? Well, the the cyclospora outbreak is larger than in normal years. I mean, normal years [11:54] actually is a cyclospora cases. The two deaths that you mentioned, they happened [11:59] in late July, late June, early July, before we identify the source. And so folks that are listening, [12:10] you can rest assured the CDC and the FDA are working hard to track trace back exactly where these [12:16] outbreaks are occurring from, intervening with the sort of suppliers to make sure that they don't, [12:21] and doing recalls to make sure that the disease doesn't, the condition doesn't spread. [12:26] I mean, it's tough. You go to a grocery store, you like lettuce, you say, okay, can I buy the lettuce? [12:31] Yeah. And what I say to folks listening, we're working hard to make sure that the contaminated [12:36] sources don't get onto the shelves. And if you're worried, you can buy that, buy the lettuce, but [12:40] make sure you wash it carefully, don't eat outer leaves. And if you're really worried, just, you know, [12:44] cook your vegetables. But we're not hearing from the FDA. I mean, should there be a restriction on [12:51] imports from central Mexico right now? It seems like a lot of things are tied back. [12:54] Yeah. I mean, I think the key thing is that when we find a contaminated source, [12:59] we intervene. I can't speak for the FDA, thank God. I mean, it's just the NIH and CDC. But I can say [13:05] that the folks who I have worked with at the FDA are, they're a great team of folks that are, [13:11] they're tracking back and finding the source of these outbreaks. And for cyclospore specifically, [13:15] it's complicated because for technical reasons, it's much, it's more difficult than if it was just a [13:19] bacteria to find the exact source. But they've done a great job finding it. And they've been [13:25] cooperating with the CDC team that I've led the last few months to try to identify the source. And, [13:30] you know, it's what we know now is because of that hard work that's gone on. [13:33] But there are also a number of other health issues, including measles cases now at their highest level [13:38] in 35 years. The CDC says only 10 U.S. states have measles vaccine coverage rates above the 95% threshold [13:49] in the prior school year. That is so key because that is, as you know, a marker for basically a way [13:56] to stop transmission, herd immunity. Do you believe that the federal government needs to make a [14:03] really full-throated push to tell parents, go get your kids vaccinated with the MMR vaccine? [14:10] You know, one of the first things I did as CDC director, I think it was back in February of this [14:14] year, was that there was a big outbreak in South Carolina. And I went on to, I went on, I don't know [14:21] if TV is the right word, but I went on camera and I recommended that the best way to end the measles [14:26] outbreak there was to have their parents vaccinate their kids for measles. And the outbreak has now [14:31] ended in South Carolina, in part because of that. There's been a lot of outbreaks, not just the [14:36] United States, but around the world. And, you know, a lot of that has to do with sort of a collapse in [14:42] sort of public trust in a lot of public health measures that occurred during the pandemic, [14:47] for reasons we can discuss. For me, the most important thing is to try to regain that trust. [14:54] Right. But why not, you can have TV ads, you can have something that's more of a national push. It was [14:59] notable last week that Secretary Kennedy went on television and did say parents should get kids [15:05] vaccinated for measles because it's effective at preventing infection roughly 97 percent of the [15:10] time. That was a change for him. He has not always been that clear, as you know. Why not blast that [15:16] across the airwaves of America? I mean, I think that I've done my best to try to do that. Every time [15:20] anyone's asked me about vaccinating their kids for measles, I say exactly that. The best way to protect [15:25] your kids for measles is to get the vaccine for measles. This country is going to lose its [15:30] measles elimination status. As did Canada, as did Mexico. But that's not accessible, right? The [15:34] gold standard science. But, you know, I think the thing is, if you look at the actual what's happened, [15:39] like there are specific states where you've had these outbreaks. Big outbreak in Texas, [15:44] which has now been addressed. Big outbreak in Arizona and Utah that's been addressed. South Carolina [15:48] that's been addressed. Now what we saw was an outbreak in Virginia, again, coming down sharply, [15:53] and now Pennsylvania, is specific communities of people that are the highest risk that we have [15:59] to focus on, as well as the broader sort of message that it's important for children to be vaccinated [16:05] for the measles if we want to address the measles outbreak. Well, that's why I brought up herd immunity, [16:08] because it puts everyone at risk, right? Not just people. But on this issue, you were down [16:15] in Atlanta this past week. This is one year since that horrific shooting at CDC headquarters. Officer [16:23] David Rose was honored this past week. He was killed last year protecting CDC employees from a gunman. [16:30] And we should note he was a combat veteran, a United States Marine, who had just graduated five [16:35] months prior from the police academy. Three kids left behind. The shooter was motivated by misinformation [16:44] about the COVID vaccine. That is why he shot over 100 bullets into the windows of the CDC. Is enough [16:51] being done to counter this kind of misinformation? I mean, I should start with, I got to talk with [16:58] Officer Rose's wife a few months back. One of the first things I did is I, you know, to honor him and his [17:05] sacrifice in protecting the people that work at the CDC, the amazing people who work at the CDC, was we, you know, [17:10] rename the street that leads into the CDC after him. And it was a really nice event. I'll tell you, [17:16] the thing is, I want to focus on attention on Officer Rose because I don't, I think the shooter did was [17:21] horrific. And I think the, you know, you could talk about why shooters do things, but really, [17:26] fundamentally... Well, his father said he was brainwashed about the COVID vaccine and thought it was [17:31] making him suicidal. That's what his motivation was when he came to the CDC. The thing is, it's like to talk [17:34] about the shooter puts the emphasis on somebody who's, I mean, I think we shouldn't be putting [17:39] our emphasis on... No, I am on misinformation about vaccines. I mean, I think the key thing is, [17:44] there's a loss of public trust in public health that happened in part because of a lot of, frankly, [17:50] even on this network and on other networks, there was a particular single point of view put across [17:56] during the COVID pandemic about how, you know, that led to things that really did cause harm to people. [18:00] The school closures is probably the number one thing that... This is not a productive line of claims. [18:06] We covered COVID in depth on this program like no other Sunday show did. [18:12] I'm not blaming you specifically. What I'm saying is, you want to talk about misinformation, [18:16] that the kinds of decisions and sort of the public sort of face of public health [18:22] during the pandemic led to many people losing trust in public health. [18:26] The Trump administration officials. [18:28] No, I mean, I mean like Biden. So Biden, for instance, censored me... [18:31] The pandemic began under the Trump administration. And we put those officials on our air. [18:35] Just so we're clear, the Biden administration censored me, right? They censored, they sent out [18:41] direct attacks on people who disagreed on, on, on the COVID, on, on sort of whether the COVID vaccine [18:47] stopped it. RFK Jr. called the COVID vaccine the deadliest vaccine ever made. [18:52] No, I... That is misinformation. And we're not being clear about that. And I [18:56] think that is dangerous. Wouldn't you agree? People lost their jobs, Margaret, because the, [18:59] there were, the Biden administration censored people and said, look, you can't even talk about [19:04] COVID vaccine harms. We're talking about a shooting. [19:05] Yeah. And I'm talking about why you have the, the kind of distrust that's led to the kind of, [19:12] uh, sort of, uh, problems that you're talking, we're talking about earlier in public health. [19:15] That distrust was not caused by President Trump. It wasn't caused by Bobby. It was caused by a lot of, [19:22] sort of, uh, really fundamentally... Misinformation. Yeah. But often spread by the government itself [19:27] regarding natural immunity, closures of schools, closures of mask mandates. People lost their jobs [19:32] because of these vaccine mandates that didn't make any public health sense. So if you want to talk [19:37] about public trust, you have to embrace that fully, right? You can't just talk about it in a narrow [19:43] political way. I'm talking about a shooting at the CDC and an officer, you said you just went to honor. [19:48] That's what I was talking about. You're talking about something else entirely. No, no, you're trying... [19:51] I also asked you about shoring up public health in the vaccine. [19:54] Just to be blunt, what you're talking about is, you're trying to blame [19:57] the shooting on Bobby. No, I'm not. I'm reading you what his father said. [20:02] No, what you're reading, what you're, what you're saying, what you're implying, [20:04] is that somehow the lack of public trust... I'm not talking about him. I'm talking about [20:07] your visit there. Yeah. And there's enough being done. [20:10] I think it's really unfortunate... Let's talk about, since you want to restore public trust, [20:14] tell me what you're doing now. Because the Washington Post and Bloomberg reported the White [20:19] House is preparing an executive order on vaccines and autism. What is it going to prescribe? What is [20:24] it going to do? Why are we seeing another announcement here, when I know you are launching [20:30] research into a plethora of issues that are contributing factors potentially to autism? [20:35] Why would the White House be saying, only look at this thing? [20:38] Well, I don't... I mean, we have to talk about specifics of the executive order. [20:42] I'll tell you what we're doing. Do you think that's restoring trust in vaccines? [20:44] The purpose of the whatever the... I mean, you can ask the president about the executive order, [20:49] but I'll tell you what the focus of the president has been... You don't know about the executive order? [20:52] I don't... I won't be able to tell you specifically what's on it, because I don't think it's done yet, [20:56] but you can ask the president about it. What I can tell you is that the president cares deeply, [21:01] as does Bobby, about the rise in autism. I know you do as well. There's so many families around the [21:07] country that have faced the issues of this, right? Yes, and they want real information. [21:13] And so I, as NIH director, have been focused on making sure that we have science that addresses [21:19] that very complicated question about why we've seen a rise in autism. It's not going to be a [21:24] simple answer. And last year, I authorized something called the Autism Data Science Initiative, [21:29] that we're going to have a big sort of early sort of results from it in a couple of weeks, [21:34] from the dozen and more scientific teams that have been funded to look at this, [21:39] with a mandate of thinking very broadly, not just genes, not just environmental exposures, [21:44] but potential interactions. We don't know... If you ask me as a scientist, do I know why we've [21:49] seen this rise in autism? I'll tell you, I don't know the answer to that question. And the fact that [21:52] it gets so tied up with, okay, is it vaccines, not vaccines? What it does is it sends a signal to [21:58] the scientists that if you work on this topic, you're going to get destroyed if you get the wrong answer. [22:02] Yeah. I've tried my hardest. The way you build public trust is allow people to talk and think [22:08] without that kind of sort of political overlay. I've tried my very hardest at NIH director to make [22:12] to allow that to happen. Which is so key for science, which is why I'm asking why the president [22:16] putting out an order specifically focused on one, what seems to be preconceived notion, [22:22] how that wouldn't be undermining... Well, you're jumping ahead. I mean, [22:24] I don't know exactly as an executive order, neither do you. So it's not... Yeah. Well, [22:28] it's interesting that you don't. My colleague, Matt Gutman here at CBS asked you last week whether [22:33] you think vaccines cause autism. You said you don't know for certain. You said there isn't evidence [22:38] that any vaccine causes autism, but you also don't have evidence that vaccines do not. Parents are [22:44] preparing to send their kids back to school. Okay, so just so I want to be very, very clear [22:46] what I actually said. Please be clear. Should parents trust that they can go vaccinate their kids when [22:51] their doctor tells them to do so for them to go back to school? I think that the parents, for most [22:57] kids, especially for the measles vaccines, the DTP, all the standard childhood vaccines, it's very [23:01] important that parents vaccinate their kids. As far as can they feel confident sending back to schools, [23:06] you know, I just, just to push back some, it was a tremendous mistake to cause parents to fear [23:12] that about sending their kids to school during the COVID pandemic. The kids were better off in school. [23:18] We shouldn't be scaring public. I'm talking about what people do now. It's August, [23:22] about to be, kids are going back to school. I'm not talking about 2020, I'm talking about [23:25] 2026. Clarity from the federal government and the top health officials. If you want clarity, [23:32] let me give you some clarity. Please. The reason why you have this problem with public trust is [23:36] because what happened in 2020 has not yet been addressed. Can these parents trust you and the [23:41] recommendation that they should go get their kids vaccinated to go back to school? The parents should, [23:45] they trust me. I mean, I'm giving my recommendation. I've got vaccinated my kids. I don't think that it [23:49] is, is a, it's, I think if you want to protect your kids from these, these, these sort of parental [23:54] diseases, yes, you should vaccinate your kids. But it is even more important that these kids go to school, [23:59] that they, in no way, shape or form should this show or any other show like it, [24:04] perpetuate the idea that they're sending their kids to school is worse because they're going to be [24:09] some health risk there when it's just not true, right? If you want to protect your kids from those, [24:14] those preventable diseases, vaccinate your kids. I've been very, very clear about that, [24:18] but it is, it is a mistake and it contributes to the lack of public trust. If you sort of fear [24:23] monger around, oh, if you send your kids to school, well, you might be around unvaccinated kids. That's, [24:28] that's a, that's a tremendous mistake, right? If you vaccinate your kids, you can protect your kids [24:32] from those, those, those risks, whatever they are. In, in any case, it's better to send the kids to [24:36] school because that's how you keep kids healthy. Yes. We want to send our kids to school. I know so, [24:40] but now addressing what happened in 2020 is part of that. If you want to say why [24:45] there's this loss of public trust, you have to really wrap your arms around that. [24:48] But you trust the science and the health workers and the vaccines now is what I understood you [24:53] were saying. And so that is the message. I mean, I've looked at the scientific evidence and there's [24:57] lots on me. I personally have made decisions for my family around those lines too. So that's good to know. [25:02] Thank you. We're going to leave it there because I know we're running out of time. We'll be back in a moment. [25:07] Federal officials say water systems in at least a dozen states have been breached by cyber attacks [25:14] and that the list could grow. Joining us now is CBS News Homeland Security and Justice correspondent [25:20] Nicole Skanga to tell us more. Nicole, I've heard you talking about it this week and it was [25:25] really fascinating to me. We had up a map showing all the states affected here. How did they detect [25:31] this and are the water systems safe? Let's start with there have been no impacts to the drinking waters [25:39] and affected communities nationwide, Margaret. I think that's important for viewers to understand. [25:43] Only five of the dozen affected states have publicly acknowledged it. You'll see it on the map. But [25:49] operators realized that something was wrong here when they could not access their own computer systems. [25:55] Essentially, they were locked out by these malicious cyber actors. And what we know right now [26:00] is that cyber attackers have been going after the industrial control systems. Essentially, [26:05] the small computers that operate the pumps, the valves, the water flow and the water pressure. [26:11] And they've been doing that because so many of these systems are remote controlled and were under [26:17] COVID, which enables them to face the Internet directly. And there are just not the firewalls in place [26:22] to protect these systems. In fact, many of them use default or weak passwords, essentially enabling these [26:29] attackers to go right in. And at least one case, and this is a particular concern to the FBI, [26:35] not only did attackers enter these exposed industrial control systems, but they actually messed with [26:40] something called the ladder logic, which essentially gave new instructions to the computer about how to [26:47] operate this system. Now, again, we've caught this so far, but this is a real concern. [26:52] So there were instances back in 2023 when these Iranian-linked hackers were accused of accessing [26:59] water systems. In July of this year, Homeland Security, which has that division CISO, which is [27:05] supposed to be protecting these things, said that there was concern about Iranian-affiliated cyber [27:12] targeting across critical infrastructure. Is that the government saying Iran did this? [27:18] I think a lot of cyber experts are saying if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, [27:22] it's probably Iran. But there are some nuances here. This campaign, like you mentioned, [27:27] resembles previous Iranian-linked campaigns, right? You have targeting exposed industrial [27:33] controllers, exploiting this weak sort of authentication, a willingness, by the way, [27:38] to create actual disruption, Margaret. So oftentimes when we see Chinese-linked cyber attacks, [27:44] full typhoon, what the Chinese want is just to gain a foothold in the system and to lay quiet. [27:49] Here we're seeing actual disruptions, which is part of previously the MO for Iran. That being said, [27:55] these are very unsophisticated attacks. And so there are a plethora of cyber actors who could [28:01] be responsible for this, including those who might be trying to mimic Iran. This is why it's very [28:07] important to not just look at the behavioral similarities before the FBI and DHS to use [28:13] intelligence and to attribute these publicly, which could take weeks or months in many cases, [28:18] because the forensic systems are just not good in these water municipalities. Last thing here, [28:23] how we respond in and of itself is a signal, right? If a nation state can degrade water systems [28:29] in roughly a dozen states and the response is just a shrug and an advisory, that is an invitation to [28:36] foreign adversaries in the future to take a hit on U.S. critical infrastructure and expect no [28:42] consequences. Such a key point. Nicole Skanga, thank you for your reporting. We'll be right back. [28:49] That's it for us today. Thank you all for watching. [28:51] Until next week, for Face the Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan.