Face the Nation: Delangue, Manchin

[0:00] We turn now to artificial intelligence and a question that has emerged after a series of [0:06] alarming hacking incidents. Is it safe? To discuss, we're joined by Clem DeLange. He is CEO of AI [0:12] platform Hugging Face, whose company detailed one of the attacks last week. Clem, good morning to [0:18] you. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Well, your company disclosed it was attacked earlier [0:24] this month by an autonomous AI cyber actor, which jumped on its own from another company's testing [0:34] system to hack into your company. OpenAI later disclosed it was their technology that went rogue. [0:42] They lost control of it. Tell me, why did your company alert the public and alert the FBI? Do [0:50] you think this is a crime? Well, I think it felt very weird and unprecedented to us, right? Because [0:58] I think it's the first instance of something quite autonomous doing something like that. [1:05] So the volume of the actions taken and the speed of them, I think it was 17,000 actions taken in [1:12] four and a half days, was very new. Obviously, the attacker, when we talk about cyber attacks, [1:21] attack, we think about nation states, we think about hacker groups, we don't think about a company [1:25] like OpenAI, right? A very prominent, popular American company. And then the way we responded [1:33] using an open model, so using AI ourselves to defend ourselves against that was also pretty new and [1:42] pretty newsworthy in our opinion. You defended yourselves. You found the solution yourselves. [1:48] But you went to the FBI. I think for a lot of people, when they think of someone committing a [1:54] crime, they think of a human. They don't think of a program, a computer program, as something you can [2:01] prosecute, as committing a crime. What is the FBI doing? Well, I mean, we reported to the authorities [2:10] as we have to in such instances, right? It's kind of like a mandatory disclosure, both with the [2:18] authorities and the public when you face something like that, which is basically what we did. [2:27] Now, when we think about the future, right, now we've heard that it's not only OpenAI, but also [2:33] entropic that has faced similar conflict issues. I think it's really important that we keep in mind [2:39] that cyber attacks need to be contained in the legal framework in the US and need to stay illegal [2:48] to prevent an explosion of them in the future, right? Like we don't want to end up in a world where [2:54] everyone is facing cyber attacks all the time because of agents. And companies that are creating these [3:00] agents are not kind of like accountable for them. So I think it's important for regulators, [3:06] for policymakers to think about the legal framework of this new kind of technology risk. [3:12] You described more than 17,000 hacking actions on the internet before this was even discovered [3:19] by your company. That sounds like the developers have lost control. Have they? [3:26] Well, you have to remember, it's a technology system, but built by engineers. And engineers can [3:33] make mistakes sometimes. And I think that's what happens here. That's what happened here. [3:40] You know, we already in our society accept some level of autonomy. And I think they built [3:45] kind of like an autonomous system and made some mistakes. And as a result, we're facing this issue. [3:53] So you said you think there should be some legal parameters put around this. The Trump administration [4:01] has taken a very light touch in regulation because they want to keep America competitive in this space. [4:09] They have this policy where they can review technology for 30 days to judge basically how [4:15] dangerous something is before a company releases it to market. But as I understand what you described, [4:20] this attack happened before technology was at market. It happened during the development stage. [4:29] It was unreleased. So what you're saying, I think, is there is no regulation at this point that would [4:36] prevent something like this from happening again. Yeah, that's a really clear example that just kind of [4:42] like preventing releases of AI models doesn't really work. Concentrating everything behind closed doors in [4:50] just a few organizations doesn't work. One thing that does work that worked in this case is kind of like [4:57] promoting more open models, right? Because we defended ourselves with an open model, right? Like we [5:04] couldn't have done it with with an API because they had these guardrails that's preventing activity for [5:11] for cybersecurity. And we needed to run a model on our own infrastructure. So we needed an open model. [5:18] When you say open model, just for our audience, as I understand it, it's an AI model whose core [5:24] components are publicly released so anyone can download it. It's not closed off like a company can [5:32] do to their proprietary information. So you want more of this essentially out there and accessible to the [5:39] public? Yeah. Yeah, because there's the only way for defenders to defend themselves on topics like that. [5:46] They remove the asymmetry of power and capabilities, right? In these kinds of risks. If you have very [5:53] powerful systems and very weak systems that are defending, then that's when you have the right [5:58] problem. But if you balance, if you make it more kind of like a symmetric in terms of attackers and [6:06] defenders, that's usually when you end up in a safer world. And I actually do think that we're talking a lot [6:11] about the risks for cybersecurity right now. But AI is actually an opportunity to fix a lot of the [6:18] cybersecurity problems. We're defending ourselves with AI. We're going to use AI to fix a lot of our [6:25] bugs. So hopefully AI is going to make the world safer ultimately thanks to that. And you used a Chinese [6:31] AI model to defend yourselves. There's a lot of concern about inviting China into this space. [6:38] Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing is that we used the American version of a Chinese model. [6:45] We used a version from NVIDIA that kind of like made a Chinese model better. So that's the beauty of [6:54] kind of like open models. Once they are shared, wherever they come from, from China or from anywhere, [7:00] American companies can modify them, remix them, host them, run them themselves. So that's one of the things [7:08] that actually make them safe wherever they come from. [7:11] So I want to ask you about a specific piece of legislation. And I will say upfront, there isn't [7:18] a lot of work that's getting done in Congress right now. But there is this bipartisan bill that would [7:23] give Homeland Security the authority to order AI firms to shut down or to slow down their artificial [7:30] intelligence models if they're too dangerous. It's called the kill switch bill. Is that something you want? [7:38] Well, I mean, I think something we're realizing with these events is that concentrating power capabilities [7:45] behind closed doors, even preventing their releases to the public, isn't really a solution. [7:53] You know, like these problems happened on unreleased models. So I think the problem is not so much kind of like [8:03] limiting the progress or kind of like preventing companies from releasing these models. It's actually [8:13] the opposite. It's giving access to more people so that they can defend themselves, democratizing the [8:20] technology, making it more transparent. [8:22] Clam, thank you so much for explaining all this to the public. We appreciate your time today. [8:28] We'll be back in a moment. And we're joined now by former West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin and his [8:35] daughter Heather Manchin. They are the heads of a new effort which aims to elect independent candidates [8:41] to public office. It's good to have you both here. Good to be with you, Margaret. Thank you. [8:45] Well, let's talk about this. Senator, let's start with you. There's a market for what you're selling. [8:51] According to CNN's polling, 47% of American adults identified as political independence. That's the [8:56] highest level in a decade. But over time, we have seen these attempts to break through the two-party [9:03] system just haven't really panned out. So what do you think is going to happen with that 47% now? [9:09] Well, everyone depends on the independence to get elected now. That's all you hear, [9:12] all the polls that are taken. To swing one way or the other. [9:14] That's right. This is, you know, in the last presidential election, [9:16] it came down to seven battleground states. That means 43 were predetermined. 435 congressional [9:22] seats, 395 are predetermined. There's no competition whatsoever in the system [9:27] because the party, the strength of the two-party system, the Democrat and Republican, [9:31] prevents that from happening. They have total control of how the primaries are put up. And when I said this, [9:38] if you look at the last election, of all the primaries across the country, only about 21% [9:43] of the people showed up. 21%, the lowest ever. So they're controlling it. And guess what? [9:49] MAGA has taken over the Republican. And now you have the DSA, seems to be having a lot of energy [9:56] on the, on the Democrat side. What happened to the people that live their lives in the middle, [10:00] that make decisions, that make things work in America? They got nobody speaking for them. [10:04] Well, do you think they stay home in 90 days? [10:07] I think they do give up. They just said, this doesn't matter because the parties have control. [10:10] They're going to do what they want to do. There's no openness at all. Try, if you're an independent, [10:14] try to get on the ballot. They make you jump through every hoop in the world and go out and [10:18] get thousands of signatures, where if you're a Democrat or Republican, you want to run, [10:23] you pay a fee. You pay a fee, just get on the ballot. That's it. But they make it almost [10:27] impossible for anyone else to compete against them. [10:29] You know who says it's a rigged system? Bernie Sanders. He's an independent. [10:32] Bernie, Bernie's a socialist now. And I respect Bernie. I respect where he's coming from. [10:37] Bernie's always been who he is, but he's had to use the Democratic Party to get on the ticket. [10:41] Yes. He took that. He took that path. [10:43] We're saying, be an independent. Be a pure independent. Run as an independent. [10:48] Come to Washington. Do not caucus with either side. Be an independent. And I'll guarantee you, [10:53] maybe you're going to make a difference of how they make their decisions, because they're going [10:57] to need you. They need you to get elected. They're going to need you also to make law. [11:00] Heather, is there anyone in Congress right now who you think is truly an independent? [11:04] Because there are only three with an eye next to their name. [11:07] No. And as Dad pointed out, they're caucusing with one side or the other. [11:11] So, you know, I think we have seen and just in stories today that the parties have literally [11:18] sucked out any independent thinking, any political courage. And so, unfortunately, [11:24] we believe that perhaps all of that gives an opportunity to say, can we get someone elected [11:30] outside the two-party system and go to Congress and stay independent? That really to have that [11:36] independent thinking and bring some negotiation conversation to the bills that, unfortunately, [11:42] it's a party-line vote. It doesn't matter what could be negotiated to get anything done. It's a [11:47] stalemate and everyone picking a side. So, for you to back a certain candidate, [11:51] you are not requiring any kind of policy platform. You would support anyone. Right. [11:57] Well, we did. We actually put a Declaration of Independence together that asked for three things. [12:04] That you're for opening competition, opening primaries, things that would restore competition [12:09] to the system, not the gerrymandering of districts and so forth. To be for solutions. That you want to [12:15] work with anyone. You want to take good ideas from both sides of the aisle and make something happen [12:20] and get done. And the last one is accountability. That you'll explain your vote. Just simply explain [12:26] your vote when you take it and why you took it. And we think that's pretty, pretty low table stakes. [12:31] Well, I'm going to say one thing. There's only one pure independent that basically ran as an [12:34] independent, governed as an independent as governor, and that's Angus King. [12:38] Yeah. [12:38] But there's no support. When Angus comes there, you know, he has to pick, well, he picked the [12:42] Democrat side because there was more things that he believed in that would be good for Maine. [12:46] So we worked together. But Angus, you know, if he had a little bit more support, I'm telling you, [12:50] he's as independent as it becomes. You can work with him on any issue. We just found that there's [12:55] no structured support for somebody just remaining independent. Can you imagine if they don't caucus [13:01] with either one? What's going to happen? They wouldn't get any committee positions. [13:05] Is the committee doing anything anyway? No. You liked your committee position. [13:09] I liked my committee position. You had them, Senator. [13:11] Allowed you do it a lot for West Virginia. Yeah, but the bottom line is that bills didn't come to the floor. [13:15] We passed things in a bipartisan way, and it was always controlled by the majority leader. [13:19] But they're going to have to vote. They can't deny them to vote. And I'll guarantee you, [13:22] they can go to any committee meeting they want to. And there's going to be times they'll say, [13:26] well, if you would just caucus with us today, we'd get this passed or that. [13:30] They can moderate an awful lot. We think it's a way to start bringing the parties. I believe the [13:36] Republican Party wants to be the grand old party again. And I believe GOP, but I believe the [13:40] Democrats would like to be responsible. They've got nowhere to go, and they've been pulled to the left and the [13:45] right. Something's got to change. They open the primaries up. Let's have competition. [13:50] But now what we can do is get a couple people elected that can sit there and say, listen, [13:54] this doesn't make any sense at all. It's not the oath I took to defend and protect the Constitution. [13:59] It doesn't make sense for my country, and it's not a way to get things done for my state. [14:03] We give them the support once they get there, and we'll change things. [14:05] Heather, could you ever support a self-described socialist candidate? [14:09] No. No way. My God, no. [14:13] Even if they have some good ideas? [14:14] I support the good ideas, but how could you support some of the crazy stuff they're for? [14:18] Have you seen their platform? They're for just dismantling everything that we know, [14:23] whether it be the structure of government, Congress itself, or the Senate they want to get rid of. [14:28] And then they start talking about all the crazy things. No police, no this, no this, no that. [14:33] Are you crazy? We want a crime-free area. We have to have police for that. [14:39] Yeah. [14:39] We want a strong defense. We want a strong border. But if Democrats can't say that, [14:43] and they start lining up with the socialist demands about what you are to be a socialist, [14:48] energy will be gone. There'll be no energy, okay? We have right now a tremendous amount of energy [14:53] we're producing, and the world depends more on us than ever before. We can do more. [14:58] I'm sorry, doesn't it surprise you that even leadership in the Democrat Party can't just say no? [15:03] They can't say no? Well, they're seeing an appeal, apparently. [15:07] And appeal to the far left. But control has now completely outweighed character. [15:14] If you're more interested in control, and that's all that it matters, your vote count, [15:19] versus the character of the person and what the platform they're running on, [15:23] I think we're living with the consequences of that. [15:25] Margaret, the Democrat Party has lost more registration, more people [15:28] identifying as Democrats than ever before. So if that was going to be the case, what would be the hope? [15:33] Right now you have high polls, right? Yeah. [15:34] Democrats should be 20, 30 points ahead if that's where the country's going. They're not, [15:38] they're still behind. The bottom line is we're not getting anything accomplished because the [15:42] two-party system has drowned out everything. They have just choked it out. [15:46] Well, when you were talking about why you did not run in 2024 for president, you said you didn't [15:52] want to be a spoiler. I couldn't get on all 50 ballots. You put me on 50 ballots, [15:55] and I have a platform, I can speak. But if I have no chance of winning because I'm only on [15:59] 16 ballots or 20 ballots statewide, national-wide. [16:03] So it was really ballot access versus polling support that would have benefited Trump. [16:06] That's exactly right. I would have loved to have been able to sit and say, [16:09] come on, Donald, do you really believe that? Is that true? Or Joe or Kamala or whatever. [16:14] We had so many differences. But there's a way that basically people just want some normality. [16:19] The chaos is just ruining people's lives today. And when you look back in West Virginia and all other [16:24] rural areas, I mean, the cost of living, the cost of groceries, the cost of doing everything, [16:29] the energy, how you live your life is too high. I mean, who are you getting financial support from? [16:36] You have a background in the business community. Do you want more sort of small dollar donations? [16:40] How do you counter some of these? No, you're right. It's David and Goliath's story for sure. [16:45] But we think, being strategic, we're not trying to get behind 20, 30 candidates. We're getting behind [16:51] a handful. A few in Congress. If we could get two or three elected, think of what the difference that [16:56] independent block can make. One or two in the Senate. And yeah, we've seen tremendous support, [17:01] actually. We'd like there to be more. I think the business community needs to lean in and not [17:08] try to put their head in the sand and say, well, we hope this passes. We need people to get engaged [17:13] and participate and think it's going to be great for the country. Thank you for sharing the initiative. [17:18] With both of us, we'll track how it does. We'll be right back. Thank you. [17:22] That's it for today. Thank you for watching. Until next week. For Face the Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan.