Face the Nation: Cotton, Himes, Van Hollen

[0:00] we're joined now by the chairman of the senate intelligence committee arkansas republican [0:04] tom cotton good to have you here senator thanks margaret you have oversight of the intelligence [0:09] community which was deeply involved in this operation to go into venezuela militarily and [0:16] extract nicholas maduro and his wife does the u.s still assess that the regime in venezuela [0:23] is made up of narco terrorists with ties to iran russia china and cuba well first off let me [0:30] commend not only our military as president trump said this was an excellent operation only the [0:34] united states military could have pulled it off but they couldn't have pulled it off with the [0:37] support without the support of the professionals and the intelligence community especially [0:42] at the central intelligence agency and i'm glad that we have a director john rackliff that has [0:47] restored confidence in the ca and the president the president has i think the president respects [0:51] the ca as much as he ever as or ever has it's a great day not just for our military for our cia [0:57] uh there's no question that the people in venezuela who are still in charge of the apparatus of the [1:02] government are sanctioned and indicted officials and they've been in league with nicholas maduro until [1:08] just yesterday i think president trump wants to give them a chance to turn a new page now that's happened [1:14] in the past if you look at what's happened in syria as you know ahmed al-share used to be an islamic [1:19] terrorist he he's now effectively a pro-american leader of syria muammar qaddafi the same way had much [1:26] blood on his hands after the iraq war he turned over a new page and came out of the cold now the [1:31] difference in those two cases is they made concrete concessions to the united states and our policy [1:35] goals and interests or they had a longer history of turning the corner like ahmed al-share has [1:42] we've got we've got to make sure that the people who are now in charge of the apparatus of the [1:47] venezuelan government are not going to continue nicholas maduro's ways and i think that's what the [1:51] president made clear yesterday but it sounds like you think that's actually possible for these [1:55] individuals to cut all ties to the cartels the president the president wants to give them a [1:59] chance to turn the page in venezuela and to help america achieve our policy goals there how much [2:04] time would you allow for that i wouldn't allow much personally but i know those conversations are [2:09] ongoing as secretary rubio said earlier on the show in your interview we want them to stop the drug [2:14] and the weapons trafficking we want them to take the refugees back we want them to kick out the [2:18] iranians the cubans the islamic radicals like hezbollah and just return to being a normal [2:24] nation that will help build stability order and prosperity not just in venezuela but in our [2:29] backyard should a free and democratic venezuela still be a goal of the united states of america and [2:34] if so do you hear from the administration a plan to transition to that i think it should secretary [2:39] rubio wasn't i think it should be a goal uh the opposition leaders uh miss machado mr gonzalez have [2:44] said they think there need to be new elections um i hope the government that's right now in place [2:50] in venezuela will allow them to return along with many other exiles who have left political exiles [2:54] who have left venezuela and that in some uh period of time it probably is not going to be days or weeks [3:00] maybe a number of months you can have new elections in venezuela that are free and fair the venezuelan [3:05] people have made clear now um under nicholas maduro that they do not want a chavista regime governing them [3:11] they want to say in their own future venezuela has a long history of stable orderly government that was [3:17] friendly to the united states we are their number one customer for oil and we work together to help [3:22] build prosper prosperity and stability in our own backyard i hope that we can do that again with the [3:27] future government in venezuela the cia cbs is reporting that the cia source inside the venezuelan [3:34] government helped the u.s track maduro's location leading up to this capture by the army's delta force [3:40] the president said yesterday the u.s should not pay out that 50 million bounty that was on the head of [3:45] maduro does that mean that the cia asset inside still works for us well i have no comment on cia [3:53] sources or methods in venezuela or elsewhere but they won't be receiving the 50 million reward i'll [3:59] simply say that the cia's amazing work here uh that has instilled such confidence in the president [4:04] is a reminder not just to nicholas maduro's cronies in venezuela but other bad guys all around the world [4:12] that we have very good insights into what they're doing and what they're up to so when the president [4:17] says we will run venezuela you are confident that there are actual american assets helping to do that [4:24] is that how i should i'm confident that we have very good insight into venezuela and other adversaries [4:30] foreign nations and terrorist groups around the world that's why the president that's why the president [4:35] has such confidence in john ratcliffe and the cia well china was trying to provide support to venezuela [4:41] during a u.s pressure campaign but where were they when delta force went in and got nicholas maduro they [4:46] were nowhere to be found and frankly that's the same thing you saw in june with china and russia in iran [4:53] we struck iran china and russia did nothing they stood idly by that's a reminder that the united [4:57] states is still the world's dominant superpower our friends are very happy today our enemies are very [5:03] worried but the person running the country delcy rodriguez spoke yesterday with russia's top diplomat [5:10] they are in contact with russia the defense minister has deep deep ties to russia is there a u.s russia [5:16] agreement here because there has been speculation based on testimony to congress back in 2019 by one [5:22] of trump's top russia advisors fiona hill that russia has been floating a venezuela for uk uk ukraine deal [5:29] here for some time this is there any such deal no this was a u.s operation um that was designed to [5:36] remove nicholas maduro because he was a u.s indicted drug trafficker and you don't get immunity from [5:42] american justice when you're indicted by our courts just because you're the illegitimate communist [5:46] dictator of another country and but to be clear that's not what i'm saying here is there an implication [5:52] that if russia doesn't meddle in america's backyard south america the united states will do something [5:57] less in ukraine which russia calls its backyard no there's no such implication and obviously russia [6:02] doesn't need any kind of pretext to do so it's invaded ukraine twice over the last 11 years [6:07] there's no such implication here at all and this is the operation the united states conducted [6:12] on our own without any coordination or cooperation from other countries to advance our national interest [6:19] which is to stop the drug trafficking and stop fenezuela from cooperating with countries like russia [6:24] and china and cuba and iran the president said saturday that a second wave military attack had [6:31] been planned it wasn't necessary but it could still be carried out what would necessitate it and what [6:37] would you support well what i took the president to mean is that uh what we just did with nicholas [6:43] maduro could be done again to other venezuelan leaders several of them are indicted in u.s courts [6:48] they're sanctioned by the united states and canada and european union and other nations [6:53] and if they continue down the path that maduro took the took the nation of venezuela then we [6:57] could conduct the same kind of operation as him i took that as the president urging them to [7:01] change their ways or face the same consequences and would you support a stabilization force [7:07] what u.s boots on the ground as the president said he wouldn't rule out we already had boots on the [7:13] ground as nicholas maduro learned the hard way it's always uh the president's option to [7:18] use the american military to protect american citizens and interests and obviously we have many [7:23] american citizens inside of venezuela and we have many interests and property as well i don't think the [7:28] president stabilization forces but i don't think he he i don't think he plans to do that i think we've seen [7:33] two the president the president's way of war over the last or over five years in office if you look [7:38] at four major operations the killing of the isis leader in syria the drone strike against the iranian [7:45] terrorist mastermind in iraq the strike against iran's nuclear facilities and now this capture of [7:51] nicholas maduro when our vital national interests are implicated the president takes bold audacious direct [7:57] action he accomplishes the mission and then the mission is over in some ways this is the greatest [8:03] mission of them all i mean as impressive as our military was in iran in june or in its first term [8:09] in iraq and syria against those terrorist masterminds uh it's probably harder to capture someone and get [8:15] out with no american loss of life than it is to kill a target or to blow up nuclear facilities so you are [8:22] drawing a distinction there in terms of authorities and use of the military the war powers act requires [8:28] the president to notify congress of the reason for committing troops within 48 hours of their [8:31] deployment and requires they be removed within 60 to 90 days unless congress authorizes it [8:39] uk with this open-ended commitment to keep forces as they are well i think he has removed the troops [8:44] they're only there for a couple hours to nab nicholas you're talking about the delta force operators who are [8:49] on the ground but there is a significant military build-up all around south america right now yes [8:55] you're comfortable with that no i strongly support it i mean part of part of that that deployment [9:01] was to collect intelligence to conduct this operation to quarantine the oil trade that venezuela [9:06] was sending to cuba or sending to our adversaries but it's not mission accomplished um it won't we [9:12] won't have accomplished our mission until venezuela starts acting like a normal nation it stops the [9:16] drug trafficking and human trafficking it kicks out islamic radicals and iranians and cubans and helps [9:22] the united states build a more stable prosperous western hemisphere that's the ultimate goal and [9:27] that's what president trump laid out yesterday so last month the chief of staff to the president [9:31] susie wiles told vanity fair that attacking targets on venezuela's mainland sovereign territory [9:37] would force trump to get congressional approval quote if he were to authorize some activity on land [9:43] then it's war then we'd need congress you are a co-equal branch of government why doesn't the [9:49] president need you or your authority or your consultation well i consult routinely with the [9:54] president and his senior advisors and you personally sure like yeah well as the chairman of the [9:59] intelligence as the chairman of the intelligence committee they keep me apprised of what their plans [10:04] are and uh what's going on i mean i spoke in the last 24 hours not just with the president but with his [10:09] senior team every man that was on that stage with him yesterday marco rubio john ratcliffe pete hexeth [10:15] dan kane stephen miller the core architect of the president's policy here i've spoken with every [10:20] single one of them the last 24 hours congress has acted to provide the president the resources and [10:27] authority that he needs to protect the vital interest of the united states whether it's taking out this [10:31] drug trafficker nicholas maduro who had contributed to the deaths of hundreds of arkansans and hundreds of [10:37] thousands of americans are striking iran's nuclear facilities he has the inherent authority under our [10:42] constitution to protect these american national interests and as the chief law enforcement officer [10:46] to make sure that indicted drug traffickers face justice whether they're indicted in venezuela [10:50] or indicted in the united states but by his own admission the dea administrator said that [10:55] cocaine prices have gone up nearly 45 percent drug traffickers have only changed routes venezuela is [11:01] not a fentanyl producer not a cocaine producer do you really think that this has ended [11:06] the drug problem venezuela is unique in latin america though because the maduro regime [11:11] is itself in league with the drug trafficking cartels it doesn't just tolerate them or it doesn't [11:16] just fail to control its territory it is in league and profits from drug trafficking cartels that's the [11:21] distinction between venezuela and other nations senator cotton thank you for your time today thank you [11:27] margaret we turn now to connecticut congressman jim himes he is the top democrat on the house intelligence [11:31] committee and he joins us this morning from greenwich congressman himes you are part of that [11:36] gang of eight which means that information about these secret operations is statutorily intended to [11:43] be shared with you as part of this very small group given that and what you should know can you clearly [11:53] explain what the united states is doing yeah by the way i was delighted to hear that tom cotton chairman [12:02] of the senate intelligence committee has been in regular contact with the administration i've had [12:05] zero outreach and no democrat that i'm aware of has had any outreach whatsoever so apparently we're [12:10] now in a world where the legal obligation to keep the congress informed only applies to uh to your [12:15] party which is really something but yeah no look i know exactly where we are margaret we're in the [12:19] euphoria period of uh acknowledging across the board that maduro was a bad guy and that our military is [12:25] absolutely incredible this is exactly the euphoria we felt in 2002 when our military took down [12:31] the taliban in afghanistan in 2003 when our military took out saddam hussein and in 2011 when we helped [12:36] remove muammar qaddafi from power in libya these were very very bad people by the way much much worse [12:42] than maduro and venezuela which was never a significant national security threat to the united [12:48] states but we're in that euphoria phase and what we learned the day after the euphoria phase that it's [12:53] an awful lot easier to break a country than it is to actually do what the president promised to do [12:58] which is to run it um and so again let's let let's let my republican colleagues enjoy their day of [13:05] euphoria but they're going to wake up tomorrow morning knowing what my god there is no plan here [13:09] any more than there was in afghanistan iraq or in libya well you heard the secretary of state say well [13:14] this is not the middle east there are conflicting statements from cabinet members uh hegseth told cbs you [13:21] know the president of the united states will absolutely be in charge here and leaned into the idea of military [13:27] options president trump said there will be an option of boots on the ground secretary rubio though [13:33] really just leaned into an oil quarantine here what what exactly is the point of leverage here [13:44] when do you expect to get answers do your republican colleagues promise you that they will get some of [13:50] these answers to the questions you have of course not margaret i mean look you're seeing it on television [13:56] today right two-thirds of my republics pick up every single morning and the only question they [14:01] have is what can i do to prove my loyalty to the president today and we see this because the president [14:07] has completely shifted who he was i mean as i watched that news conference yesterday i thought oh my god [14:13] this is dick cheney and the neocons not only are they taking out a uh they're doing a regime change [14:19] in a country by the way not a tier one threat to the united states but that they just don't like [14:23] they're warning the other dictators this is dick cheney in 2002 saying we're taking down saddam hussein [14:29] and by the way syria and iran better watch out and the fascinating thing about that and why it's [14:34] really hard to answer the question of where the hell they're going to go from here is that the [14:37] president won by promising maga and his own people um that this kind of stuff was done that the neocons [14:44] were over and here we are that was dick cheney in the conference yesterday you know deciding that the [14:50] united states was going to you know militarily change regimes and threaten other ones just because [14:54] we don't like them well but then the secretary of state was talking about working with the regime [15:02] and working with maduro's number two who's now running the place and other indicted criminals [15:09] according to the southern district of new york who are continuing to run venezuela so can you really [15:14] say that's regime change if they're working with the regime as you pointed out it's not right and [15:22] um you know lost to explain any consistency here i mean as you pointed out it was a very bad guy in [15:29] an indicted truck five weeks ago the pardoned bad and indicted truck drug trap these guys get a part [15:38] of them get the full can milk like them uh new york i i in that there is no maybe maybe believes [15:49] that work with the but i mean look again go back to it and it is congressman hives i'm i'm sorry to [15:57] cut you off here i'm having a terrible time uh audio wise i'm going to take a break because [16:02] hopefully our technicians can fix it in those two minutes so please stay with us we'll be right back [16:07] welcome back to face the nation just want to apologize to our viewers there uh congressman [16:12] himes did not have a bad case of the hiccups we have technical problems that's why he was getting [16:16] interrupted there it's called live view that's the technology being used and it wasn't working so [16:21] apologies for cutting that short you're back with me now in studio and we're going to talk to [16:26] maryland democratic senator chris van holland who is here in person good to be with you [16:32] will not have those problems we hope um but let's pick up on that very same point that we were [16:38] discussing with congressman himes there he says that no information was being shared with the top [16:46] people who have oversight like himself um what leverage do democrats have to force the [16:54] administration to treat congress as a co-equal branch of government well margaret it's hard when [17:00] the republicans in congress are totally awol right when they want to give donald trump essentially a [17:06] blank check because they continue to have majorities of course in the house and the senate uh obviously in [17:13] 2026 if democrats regain control of either house we will have the gavel but in the meantime we need to [17:20] go directly to the american people and just make it very clear that in this case it's my view that the [17:27] trump administration's been lying to the american people this has never been about stopping drugs [17:32] from coming to the united states we all support stopping drugs this from the beginning has been [17:37] about getting rid of maduro grabbing venezuela's oil for american oil companies and trump's billionaire [17:44] buddies that's what this is about that's why donald trump spent so much time yesterday talking about [17:50] oil 20 times the word oil was used in those remarks the defense secretary spoke to my colleague uh [17:56] tony de copel and used the word oil about six times um there is a lot of focus on those natural [18:02] resources but arguably isn't that what china russia iran others are are also trying to do which is to [18:10] extract their own benefit from this country you know what what is the counter to that point that [18:15] the administration would argue well the counter is you don't invade a country to grab their [18:21] natural resources right do you consider this an invasion even though although it's unclear because [18:26] well let's put it this way said there were boots on the ground and that there aren't well they took [18:29] they had boots on the ground right they took they took out the leader um and now they're demanding [18:36] access to venezuela's oil that's what this has been about i mean donald trump you know claimed that [18:43] he'd been against the war in iraq from the beginning that wasn't true but what we do know is he said [18:48] well having gone into iraq we should have gotten their oil this is what drives donald trump and [18:55] our servicemen and women perform magnificently but i think it's outrageous that the president [19:00] united states puts american lives at risk so big american oil companies and his billionaire buddies [19:06] can profit but arguably there are also uh critical minerals there there are all sorts of natural [19:12] resources in venezuela that the drug cartels even were getting in the business of that the chinese [19:17] were there trying to get um how do you do both things both corner the market on things that are [19:23] of vital national security interests those kind of minerals and still actually maintain the principles [19:29] that you're arguing should be upheld well the united states is working and under the previous [19:34] administration also worked to secure you know critical mineral supply chains unfortunately in many [19:40] of these areas the trump administration actually has surrendered uh to china i mean if you look at for [19:47] example clean energy and all those issues and and batteries we've essentially surrendered that [19:54] market to china what you don't do margaret is you don't put american lives at risk to go in and grab [20:03] oil resources to benefit the billionaires that support donald trump so chevron an american oil company [20:10] has been operating in venezuela throughout and they told cbs yesterday that they continue to to work [20:16] there my understanding is there are hundreds of americans working and living in venezuela still [20:21] reportedly there are at least four who have been detained by the regime the regime that remains in [20:27] power here you are on senate foreign relations what do you know about the detained americans [20:33] what can you find out about how they're doing i've not gotten an update uh from the administration [20:39] on those detained americans months ago i did work to secure the release of an american a marylander who [20:46] we now have back in baltimore maryland i think the administration is looking at those detentions [20:52] currently ongoing in venezuela and determining how many of them are wrongful detentions how many that [20:57] they don't think are wrongful detentions but certainly my view is we should work to bring back every [21:03] american who is wrongfully detained overseas i think this is going to complicate uh that effort [21:10] what the trump administration uh just did because they could designate venezuela as a state sponsor of [21:17] hostage shaking now is that where you're going with that no my my view is that the administration should [21:23] designate as wrongfully detained any americans that the you know venezuelan government has seized [21:30] wrongfully and then there are ways to continue to put pressure on now normally that pressure would [21:34] be through sanctions here the administration obviously has you know taken military action [21:40] as you've been pointing out we're still left with the regime i mean the vice president's part [21:45] of the regime donald trump says he's running venezuela um this is not going to end well iraq did not [21:54] end well other efforts to try to get rid of bad people and we're glad to get rid of maduro i'd like to [21:59] get rid of leaders in other countries but you don't do it through force that just doesn't work out [22:06] well in in our experience right and even on that point the secretary of state rubio challenged me [22:12] and saying we couldn't grab all those people at once but uh attorney general former attorney general bill [22:18] barr was on fox news this morning the man who put together that first indictment of maduro and he said [22:23] the intention was to clean the place out of this criminal organization so there's going to have to be [22:28] follow-up action to be clear do you oppose all snatch and grab operations of indicted people well i [22:35] don't think we should be putting american men and women at risk in a situation like this i mean i'd have [22:42] to look at every situation but again the motivation here is about grabbing venezuela's oil for american [22:50] oil companies you already see folks on wall street lining up so let's just be real as to what is really [22:56] behind this operation i mean donald trump said he was going to focus on the united states we have [23:01] people's health care costs going through the roof because they refuse to extend the affordable care [23:06] tax credits meanwhile he bails out argentina and wants to run venezuela for the benefit of american [23:13] oil companies we're going to have to talk about all the things you just raised as we um in a future [23:19] episode of face the nation but clearly on the question of war powers does the president have the legal [23:25] authority to do what he's doing no he does not i mean this is on the appropriations committee you've [23:30] got power what can you do about it well i i worked with senator berkeley already to offer a resolution in [23:37] the united states senate to cut off any u.s taxpayer dollars to fund an attack against venezuela republicans [23:46] blocked us from doing it so yes we will continue to push in fact i'm sure we're gonna have a vote on a [23:50] war powers resolution probably as early as this week if not next um last time we offered those [23:57] margaret republicans voted no all but one or two senator paul voted with us maybe one other but for [24:04] the most part republicans are happy to give donald trump a blank check and surrender their constitutional [24:10] responsibilities to donald trump senator van holland uh a lot more to talk to you about um thank you very [24:16] much for joining us here thank you to leave it there we turn now um back to our conversation with [24:23] connecticut democratic congressman jim himes who i think can be heard now congressman um i'm glad we [24:29] got the the link back up um for those viewers who who who lost you there um can you explain to us [24:39] the administration is arguing that what they did uh is legal and that the snatch and grab operation [24:46] of taking an indicted criminal nicolas maduro to the united states through military force has [24:53] precedent and they point back to to what happened in the late 80s with noriega in panama what's your [25:00] challenge to that yeah well um first it's clearly illegal under international law right no full stop [25:08] u.n charter no question there now you may not care about international law but if you don't care about [25:12] international law remember you're going to be making an appeal to international law to try to get [25:16] restitution for the seizure of chevron's oil stuff so maybe you want to rethink how much disdain you show [25:23] for international law uh clearly not legal under the constitution because though presidents of both [25:28] parties have argued against this the constitution is really pretty clear that the representatives of [25:33] the people get to be consulted and ultimately approve military activity that has not happened here [25:39] at all um and so um again there's nothing legal uh about this and more to the point um again under [25:48] the international law point think of what russia and china just learned russia and china just learned [25:53] that all you need to do if you want to go into estonia is to say that the leader of estonia is a bad [25:58] person you don't even need to make a particularly good case look there's no national security expert [26:03] saying that venezuela was a mortal threat to the united states three weeks ago so what china and russia just [26:08] learned is that the beacon of liberty and rule of law in the world has now green-lighted snatch and [26:13] grab operations in estonia in taiwan wherever xi and putin decide they want to go next so i take your [26:22] point on the precedent there um do you think that china or russia would have the ability to carry out [26:29] that kind of lightning operation the united states did well um no uh but that doesn't mean well china yes [26:39] china yes china very soon and you know their leader has said we will develop this capability [26:44] we know that their intent is to do precisely this in taiwan russia is a more complicated case it's [26:49] you know russia loses 10 000 people to get in you know three acres of land in eastern ukraine but that [26:54] may not be true five years from now and by the way back to the noriega case because you do ask a good [26:58] question there panama is a terrible precedent why do i say that because when we went into panama uh the [27:05] panamanian congress had declared war on the united states of america right they had killed a united [27:11] states marine and wounded two others and the congress had been consultant the congress under in the noriega [27:20] mission had had authorized regime change so it's a terrible precedent that the [27:26] administration is using to say that this is legal yeah as we understand it because we looked this up [27:31] noriega claimed head of state immunity and the court said that that immunity was meant to protect [27:37] official state functions and private profiting off the drug trade basically the courts ruled on his [27:41] actions as a leader and not on the legality of the snatch and grab operation itself um so we're [27:48] going to continue to to track all of this thank you uh congressman himes thank you senator van holland [27:54] we will be right back that's it for us today and there has been a lot of breaking news thank you for [28:01] watching be sure to tune in monday night and every weekday night for the cbs evening news as tony de [28:07] copel begins a new generation here at cbs news until next week for face the nation i'm margaret brennan