Face the Nation: Bacon, Krebs, Buchanan, Barcott

[0:00] We go now to Republican Congressman Don Bacon, who joins us from Omaha, Nebraska. [0:05] Welcome back to Face the Nation. [0:07] Thank you, Margaret. [0:08] Before we get to national security, I want to ask you about politics and candidate quality. [0:13] Last month, Texas Republicans chose to make Ken Paxton their Senate nominee, [0:18] despite the fact as Texas AG, he was impeached by the Republican-controlled House [0:23] on multiple charges of abuse of office, including bribery. [0:26] His wife is divorcing him on what she called biblical grounds because of adultery, [0:32] and he was indicted in 2015 on securities fraud charges that were later dropped. [0:37] Despite all this, the president backed him over sitting Senator John Cornyn, [0:42] and so did Texas Republicans. [0:45] For your party, does Trump's favor carry more weight than character? [0:53] I think in many cases it does. [0:55] His endorsement in a primary is often—carries the most weight. [1:01] But I think it was a mistake. [1:02] I think this has hurt the president. [1:05] A lot of senators feel very close to Senator Cornyn. [1:08] He was a big fundraiser. [1:10] He helped a lot of these Republicans get elected all over the country. [1:14] So there's a lot of loyalty to John Cornyn. [1:16] In fact, I know him, too, and I admire the guy. [1:19] And now we've nominated a guy in Texas that is probably the most vulnerable in a general election, [1:26] and it puts that seat up for grabs. [1:28] So I don't think it was a wise decision. [1:31] And I would say one other factor here is the Democrat nominee. [1:36] I think he's also pretty weak, though, in Texas. [1:39] So I think both sides have nominated people that are vulnerable in a general. [1:44] But John Cornyn could have won the seat easily, [1:46] and now the Republicans will be spending a lot of money to hold it. [1:49] And I think it was a mistake. [1:51] I know you have chosen to retire, [1:54] but if you were having to campaign and explain all this, [1:57] including the higher gas prices, how would you persuade voters? [2:02] Well, I try to—in my case, I try to show—I try to do what's right, [2:06] whether it's President Trump's position or not his position. [2:09] And I just try to look voters in the eye that say, [2:11] hey, I support Ukraine. [2:12] I think tariffs are a mistake. [2:14] I have votes to back it up. [2:15] I also support the fact that we secured the border. [2:19] I support generally what we're doing in Iran, [2:21] because Iran has been waging war against us for 47 years. [2:25] So I just try to call balls and strikes, and I try to be honest. [2:28] And I try to do, once I'm elected, what I campaign on. [2:32] All right. [2:32] Well, we'll let you call some of those balls and strikes [2:34] on the other side of this commercial break that I have to take. [2:37] So please stay with us. [2:38] We have more questions for Congressman Bacon, [2:41] and a lot more Face the Nation. [2:43] Stay with us. [2:49] Welcome back to Face the Nation. [2:50] We return now to our conversation with Nebraska Republican Congressman Don Bacon. [2:56] Congressman, I want to go to Europe and talk about Ukraine, [2:59] but let me first ask you about what was said at Normandy on Saturday. [3:03] Secretary Hegseth seemed, in his remarks, to link immigration to the legacy of the D-Day landings [3:10] by Allied forces who were liberating Europe from the Nazis. [3:14] Take a listen. [3:15] Sadly, today, different European beaches are stormed by different dangerous ideologies. [3:30] Beaches in Spain, in Italy, in Greece, in Bulgaria. [3:34] Boats and men arrive. [3:39] When will European capitals do something about that invasion? [3:43] I'm not sure who the allies were in that analogy, but I wonder what you make of Hegseth's remarks. [3:51] You know, Normandy's a time to celebrate a great day. [3:56] You know, I've been on the beaches of Omaha, and, you know, we lost about 3,000 troops on that beach on one day. [4:05] That's where the focus should have been. [4:06] It's a chance to celebrate with our allies. [4:08] We worked together to defeat Nazi Germany. [4:10] And one of the concerns that many of us have when it comes to this administration, and particularly the Pentagon right now, [4:17] they're very critical of Europe. [4:19] They're critical of the EU. [4:20] They're critical of NATO. [4:22] They're critical of a lot of the countries that make up NATO. [4:24] And you never hear them criticize Russia. [4:27] And that bothers us. [4:29] Why are they so weak on the Russia, which affects their Ukraine foreign policy, their policy towards the Baltics? [4:35] But they are quick to always want to criticize Europe. [4:39] It reminds me of the message that Secretary Hegseth sent to the Vice President on Signal when he said how much he loathed Europe. [4:47] Well, I think that's not good for America. [4:49] It's not good for our national security. [4:51] And our allies, we have to work together to counter Russia, to counter China, to help us in the Middle East. [4:58] And this constant criticism, along with the President's threats towards Greenland, as well as Canada, it's hurt us. [5:07] Our allies have lost a lot of trust. [5:09] So I don't think these comments by the Secretary were helpful. [5:12] Yeah. [5:13] Well, I know you have been taking a stand against Russia and for Ukraine. [5:17] You did that this past week, along with some of your colleagues. [5:20] As you put it in remarks on the House floor, this is our Churchill moment or our Chamberlain moment. [5:27] And by God, I'm going to choose Churchill. [5:30] 17 Republicans joined you. [5:33] The last time we saw a vote on Ukraine, there were 100 Republicans supporting it. [5:38] What is going on here? [5:40] And how do you get the Senate to take up what you did get over the line? [5:43] Well, a couple of things here. [5:46] First of all, the President has had a policy of wanting to negotiate a settlement. [5:51] I don't think it's working. [5:52] He is too much as trying to act like an umpire, trying to work with two different people in a boxing match. [5:59] But it's not the case. [5:59] You have a country that's invading Ukraine. [6:03] They're bombing cities every night. [6:05] There's a good versus evil here. [6:07] And America should be unabashedly for the right side here, the democracy, the country that wants free markets, the country that wants to align with us. [6:15] Russia hates us. [6:16] I don't know why the President can't see that. [6:18] Putin hates the United States. [6:20] He hates what we stand for. [6:22] So that's a problem there. [6:24] When it comes to the House, the Speaker has not wanted to get in front of the President on this. [6:31] And so he lobbied pretty hard, and we call it whipping, against this vote. [6:35] And I think he was wrong. [6:37] I've waited for a year and a half in this Congress to get something done on Ukraine, and we've done nothing. [6:42] There's been no votes, no policies from the leadership here or the President to support a country that's fighting for its life. [6:49] I agree with your previous interview that Ukraine has the upper hand right now, but Russia is bombing those cities every night, and we should be there to help them and to defend against these ballistic missile attacks. [7:02] The Speaker whipped against this, and that's why he drove that number down. [7:06] I think he was wrong. [7:08] He says he's pro-Ukraine, but the actions speak louder than words. [7:11] President Zelensky was on this program last Sunday asking for more interceptors, but also he made clear that he wants friendly countries in Europe who have a good relationship with the U.S. to be able to produce the Patriots as well. [7:27] I know your colleague Mike Turner wrote to the President last week asking for that part to be delivered on. [7:35] Do you support it? [7:36] I mean, what's the holdup? [7:38] I do support it. [7:39] We cannot produce enough Patriots right now to handle what we're doing on Iran, to provide Ukraine, but also we need to have the same missile defenses in Asia for whether it's North Korea or China, and we're not producing enough. [7:53] So we should look for our allies to help create additional production lines. [7:58] I know Ukraine would love to help do that, and they need these missiles very badly. [8:02] What I would do in this case, and we have a low stockpile because of Iran, I would sit down with our allies and just look at what assets we have and come up with a plan to give anti-ballistic missile technology and capabilities to Ukraine. [8:18] And we can't do it all, but we should sit down with our allies and build a plan and get it done. [8:23] Don Bacon, Republican from Nebraska, thank you so much, sir. [8:28] We'll be right back. [8:29] Should the government regulate AI, and if so, how? [8:34] We're joined by CBS News cybersecurity contributor Chris Krebs, who ran CISA in the first Trump administration, and Ben Buchanan, who advised President Biden and is now a professor at Johns Hopkins and an advisor to Anthropic. [8:48] Good to have you both here. [8:50] Good to be here. [8:50] Thanks for having us. [8:51] So this was a big change because President Trump and his advisors clearly saw something that led to a shift in their policy. [8:58] They were very light touch, literally don't do anything, and now there was this executive order just a few days ago to have some step towards, I don't know if we can call regulating it because it's voluntary, but that the companies have to voluntarily provide their very sensitive technology 30 days before releasing it to let the government have a first look. [9:22] What does this accomplish, Chris? [9:24] Well, I think the biggest concern was while there had been a sense that generative AI and some of the more advanced tools were giving cyber attackers and defenders better capabilities, it wasn't until about two months ago where Anthropic released their Mythos, or at least announced their Mythos preview, that really brought it, I think, to the forefront with cabinet secretaries like Scott Besson and Treasury and some other folks. [9:50] So they became more concerned. [9:52] They go to the White House, say, hey, we need to take a bit more of a proactive approach. [9:57] They got concerned because business entities. [9:59] Yeah, I mean, in part the finance sector, banks, Jamie Dimon and JP Morgan and a number of others were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we need to pause, we need to think about what we're doing here, [10:09] and we need to take a bit more robust security-focused approach on how we, as this avalanche of vulnerabilities that will be discovered by AI, how we prepare and ensure that we're not going to be overwhelmed. [10:25] Ben, 30 days for the government to conduct a full security vetting. [10:32] Is that possible, or is this just sort of window dressing to say the government's doing something? [10:37] In the Biden administration, we built a capability at the AI Safety Institute to do quick voluntary testing of AI systems, including for cyber risks and for bio risks. [10:47] So I think the tests themselves can go quickly, but that doesn't mean the government is going to do that in a fulsome way. [10:53] So the jury, I think, is still out on how the president chooses to implement this. [10:57] Right. [10:57] But the timing here, I think, is not one of the pieces that worries me. [11:00] It's more getting the details of what does this testing look for. [11:03] Right. [11:04] And what's the consequence? [11:05] Exactly. [11:05] So can the government stop it? [11:07] The whole risk and worry had been this would get in the way of America's arms race with China. [11:14] Does this get in the way of America's arms race with China? [11:16] Not as it's currently written. [11:17] No, I don't think so. [11:18] And I don't even think even more stringent versions would. [11:20] But I do think what's happening here is you see the government wrestling with something that we wrestled with in the Biden administration. [11:26] This technology is coming from the private sector. [11:28] And in many respects, it's the first revolutionary technology that is primarily in its current form from the private sector. [11:34] Meaning? [11:34] You think about nukes or space or so much more. [11:36] The government has and has had a role in all those technologies, inventing them, shaping them. [11:41] It doesn't really have that in AI. [11:43] So the Trump administration is now trying to figure out how does it want to assert itself in this new domain that actually is quite different conceptually than many of the ones that came before. [11:50] And in Congress, they haven't regulated, really. [11:55] Not yet. [11:55] In fact, the executive order is very clear when it says this is not a licensing regime. [12:00] There is not a pre-clearance mechanism. [12:02] But it does set up a structure where the NSA, the National Security Agency, can define what a covered model is and then brings those models into the 30-day pre-review. [12:15] And then you can look at maybe what some of the vulnerabilities that could be discovered. [12:18] And then you can share those out with defenders, with industry, so that they are prepared. [12:24] But separately this week, you had Congressman Obernolte introduce draft legislation that may give a requirement for submitting some of these subsequently covered models for pre-review and auditing by independent bodies on a twice-a-year basis. [12:44] It's unclear if that's got a future, though, that legislation. [12:47] But it's starting the conversation, which I think is critical. [12:49] So the president did say to reporters that all the big AI leaders are coming to the White House quite soon. [12:56] He has said he's looking into the U.S. government taking an ownership stake in some AI companies. [13:02] I mean, us U.S. taxpayers would own stakes. [13:05] And it's been reported that OpenAI's Sam Altman also pitched an idea to Senator Bernie Sanders about transferring 50% of the equity of the top AI companies to a public fund. [13:18] To both of you, would that work? [13:20] What does that do? [13:21] Is that just retrofitting what you said, which is the government needs to have some kind of hand in here? [13:25] It's certainly conceptually trying to address that question of what's the relation between the public and private sector. [13:32] I think with something that is that drastic, the devil is really in the details, and we don't have any details of this meeting or even of Senator Sanders' proposal. [13:39] So I think we've got a long way to go on making that real. [13:41] And it feels incongruous with me of what does it mean to let the private sector run here. [13:46] So I think there's a lot of complexity that's yet to be worked out in that proposal. [13:49] And on that note, it also creates a significant governance challenge. [13:53] You know, when you control, when you own part of whatever the tool is, it creates a conflict of interest and some self-dealing, perhaps, if you're also trying to regulate it. [14:04] So, again, the details here are what's going to matter. [14:07] It is interesting that it's almost a horseshoe effect where you have both Republicans and Democrats that are talking about, you know, perhaps we need to take an ownership stake in these models. [14:16] Mm-hmm. They seem scared. I mean, that seems to be the takeaway that's forcing a change in position. [14:23] And, I mean, Anthropic, the company you advise, called for an international pause in AI development because of how fast the systems are improving. [14:32] As I understand it, the concerns the models are becoming so advanced they can fix themselves without humans being involved? [14:38] The dynamic here that's very interesting is what we call recursive self-improvement. [14:42] So, the AI systems help the AI companies generate the next version of the system. [14:47] And that can show up in a number of ways. [14:49] One of the ways it can show up is the AI systems write the computer code for the next version. [14:53] Another one is the AI systems do the research and some of the math and underlying conceptual work that leads to efficiencies in the next system. [15:01] And now we increasingly see AI systems helping design the chips that are the lifeblood of this. [15:05] So, I think it is the case for a variety of reasons, recursive self-improvement, massive infrastructure investments. [15:10] We should expect these systems to continue to get very good very quickly. [15:14] And that does raise real national security questions no matter who is president. [15:18] Do you expect that most companies are going to comply with this voluntary 30-day review, Chris? [15:25] Well, I think there's a separate mechanism that probably has more teeth, and that's what was issued on Friday, a national security presidential memorandum on the national security enterprise in the use of AI, which allows the Department of Defense to use the power of the purse, the procurement mechanisms to dictate what the policies are and who needs to submit to reviews and who will follow certain presidential or rather department level direction. [15:50] So, I think the executive order is an interesting framing for a government-wide approach, but the real movement, I think the real teeth, is what's happening at the Department of Defense in dictating what the policies are for how vendors can dictate to the government on how models can be used. [16:09] In the Biden administration in 2023, we brought the companies to the White House to meet with the president, and they all made voluntary commitments, which they then followed through on, to do independent red team testing for risks like cyber, for bio, to publish their testing results to the public, and they followed through on that. [16:24] So, I do think there's a history here of companies working with government, but I suspect both sides are going to have to do a lot more as this technology gets better. [16:32] I recall during the Biden administration, there was this agreement between the U.S. and China not to let AI touch nukes. [16:39] That's right. [16:40] As I understand it, there's discussion about the risk towards biological weapons. [16:46] Open AI, Anthropic, and Google's AI initiative signed a letter saying that there should be a law to keep AI out of biological weapons. [16:55] Chris spoke very well, and you spoke very well about the cyber dimensions of the current set of models. [16:59] I would look at these current models not as cyber models, but as generally capable models. [17:04] What does that mean? Sorry. [17:05] They can do expert tasks in a wide variety of areas, not just in cyber, also in bio and the like. [17:12] This was something that we were very alert to in the Biden administration. [17:14] There's a long section on bio in the president's executive order in 2023. [17:18] There's upside. [17:19] You know, AI can do a lot for medical discovery, but there's also a legitimate concern that AI is outperforming PhD-level virologists on virology questions, [17:27] and that could abet a bioweapons risk. [17:30] That is not hypothetical. [17:31] Okay, well, now you're scaring me. [17:34] I mean, do they need to be bilateral agreements between countries, or this is because we have the edge at this moment. [17:40] America needs to set the rules, the rules for everyone. [17:43] I mean, essentially, they did for nuclear weapons, right? [17:45] We had them first, but it was out of fear. [17:49] Look, AI, emerging technologies, quantum is going to present, I think, the same problem, [17:55] but we're now entering this governance space where technology development is moving faster than democratic oversight and control can allow or provide. [18:07] And I think to your earlier question about they're scared, there's fear, it's they're overwhelmed. [18:12] They don't really understand the technology. [18:14] It's very complex. [18:17] Understanding how to meaningfully intervene that's consistent with the American regulatory tradition of its light touch, free markets, capital markets, [18:26] we're seeing a bit of, I think, a divide here on how to interact. [18:30] But, again, you are seeing some interesting parallels in direction of travel that's consistent between the administration, the Congress, [18:38] and Democrats and Republicans that understand something needs to be done. [18:42] We're just not quite sure what the mechanisms are just yet. [18:46] Yeah. [18:47] And the technology is moving really quickly while that's being debated. [18:50] Gentlemen, thank you for bottom lining this for us. [18:53] We'll be right back in a moment. [18:54] On Friday, we spoke with Ry Barkad, a Marine veteran who is the founder of With Honor, [19:01] an organization that supports military and public service veterans for higher office. [19:06] His new book is Courage Can Save Us, Ten Extraordinary Americans in the Fight for Our Future. [19:12] We began by asking about the group's mission and why it's so important now. [19:16] We've helped recruit and train and help elect veterans that take our pledge to serve with integrity, civility, and courage, [19:23] including the courage to work across party lines at a difficult time to do so. [19:27] Through that process, I've gotten to know many of them quite well. [19:30] And so what I decided to do was select ten, an even balance of five and five, [19:35] all of whom were in office at a very difficult, challenging time for the country, [19:39] and really unpack where their courage came from and then look at moments of courage both in military service as well as in politics in elected office. [19:49] Sometimes that courage is quieter. [19:52] It's more of a moral courage versus a physical courage, which they may have encountered in the military. [19:56] But that was my approach to this book, which I've written principally for students. [20:03] I'd like to see more students being able to study courage. [20:07] I've defined courage as a form of service, that it is taking risk in the service of something larger than yourself. [20:14] It's not self-interested. [20:15] It's serving what's referred to oftentimes as the common good. [20:19] Well, you do need to inspire younger people, it sounds like, because when we look at the polling, overall, 17 percent of Americans, [20:29] according to Pew, trust the government in Washington to do what's right all or most of the time. [20:33] Our own CBS polling has showed the younger generations dispirited. [20:37] They're anxious about their futures. [20:40] So how do you inspire them to join a system that they believe is broken? [20:43] Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of young people are feeling lonely. [20:46] There's a lack of a sense of purpose. [20:48] One of the great things that I found through military service was that it gives you a sense of something larger than yourself [20:57] and a common mission with Americans from all different walks of life. [21:00] So one of the key takeaways for the book is to find a route into public service. [21:06] And that's one of the goals with this. [21:08] Do you worry we are at a point where the kind of moral courage you're describing is nearly impossible to fill? [21:16] Because when we look at the kind of partisanship out there and then you look at, for example, the redistricting that may lock in that partisanship [21:24] and disincentivize the thing you say you want to encourage, bipartisanship, the forces are kind of against you. [21:30] The forces are really going against us. [21:31] And most Americans want courage but feel like they see very little of it or none of it. [21:37] And what I wanted to shine a light on is to say that this still exists. [21:40] It still exists. [21:41] Here are 10 examples of it. [21:43] It's hard. [21:44] We need to celebrate it when it arises. [21:47] You know, past military service doesn't guarantee a flawless life. [21:50] I mean, you gestured to that. [21:53] But we've been talking about this with candidates, the Democratic Senate candidate in Maine, for example, other lawmakers. [22:00] Do you ever look at candidates and say, despite your service, I can't support you? [22:07] We do. [22:07] How do you make that call? [22:08] We usually only do about 10 percent of the overall vets that run. [22:12] This year, there is more vets running than any year before. [22:16] It's an increase of over 30 percent across party lines. [22:19] Quite encouraging. [22:20] Many of those vets are not running in races that are winnable. [22:25] So that's one criteria. [22:26] But really, fundamentally, we look at character. [22:29] And you have to commit to this pledge to serve with integrity, civility, and courage. [22:34] We watch how people conduct themselves on the campaign trail. [22:36] We interview individuals that serve with them in the military under duress. [22:41] And it's only about 10 percent of the veterans that make the cut. [22:45] Once they serve in office, they really need to be committed to it. [22:47] They have to maintain that trust across party lines. [22:50] That doesn't mean that they'll agree on every issue. [22:53] Most issues, they don't, but they'll maintain trust and relationships. [22:58] It doesn't always work. [22:59] You talk about the pledge. [23:01] When we looked it up, the pledge is to bring civility to office, participate in a cross-partisan [23:06] veterans caucus. [23:07] You ask members also to pledge just to meet with a member of the opposing party once a [23:14] month and then join them in significant bipartisan legislation. [23:18] That's right. [23:18] Can we actually deal with that? [23:20] I mean, it seems so basic. [23:21] Congress isn't legislating these days. [23:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [23:22] Can we amp it up? [23:23] And expand it more? [23:26] I hope so. [23:27] We have continued to grow and maintain that cohesion, but it has been difficult. [23:31] I mean, there have been many moments over the last eight years where relationships get [23:37] frayed. [23:37] I mean, January 6th was one example. [23:39] Yeah. [23:39] You know, many others. [23:40] And this matters for the country, but it is not easy. [23:46] And, you know, meeting alone is one thing, but then actually being willing to have the [23:51] courage to put your name with another and say, we're going to do this and we're going to [23:55] stand for this, even though I might get attacked for working with the enemy. [23:59] I mean, it's a crazy thing. [24:00] There's a survey out that 80% of Republicans and Democrats, registered Republicans and Democrats, [24:07] of course, about 40% of the country are non-affiliated. [24:10] But among those that are affiliated, over 80% refer to the other side as the enemy. [24:17] I mean, that's what we're, and that's why with this book, I think courage can save us [24:22] as a country. [24:24] The us is the flag. [24:25] It has a crack in it. [24:26] It's not broken, but it has a crack in it. [24:28] We're in a serious place as a nation. [24:30] We're turning 250 years old. [24:31] But at the end of the day, I believe this is a, this is an optimistic outlook. [24:35] There are a lot of people that are still, you know, serving for the good of service, [24:40] something that's larger than themselves. [24:42] Our full conversations on our website, YouTube page, and podcast platform. [24:46] We'll be right back. [24:47] That's it for us today. [24:51] Thank you all for watching. [24:52] Until next week. [24:53] For Face the Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan.