Epstein Freakout? Watch MS NOW's analysis of NYT's new BOMBSHELL reporting

[0:00] Joining us to discuss more of this is MS Now Washington reporter and The Weeknd co-host, [0:06] Jackie Alemany, former Bush and McCain advisor Mark McKinnon, and Danielle Moody, co-host of [0:11] the Democracy-ish podcast. Jackie, we should note we expect to see the president at any moment for [0:17] a bill signing, but what's the reaction to this Times reporting there so far? [0:24] Yeah, and I expect that the president is going to be asked about this report in real time by [0:29] reporters who are let into the room for that bill signing. So far, aides and people around Donald [0:36] Trump have remained pretty mum on the really blockbuster reporting done by Maggie Haberman [0:42] and Jonathan Swan and released this morning. And we know that the president has lashed out at [0:49] our fellow colleagues, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, and the crew of Morning Joe after [0:56] they rehashed some of the allegations and some of the reporting that were made on air. And the [1:03] president then took to Truth Social to launch a series of complaints and criticisms against them. [1:11] I think an acknowledgment of some of the reporting, as Joe said himself, essentially a potential [1:17] confirmation of the reporting that The New York Times has released this morning. But there are a [1:24] series of unflattering depictions and anecdotes in here that I think really illustrate just how much [1:33] this issue has plagued this White House really since Trump took office and the lengths that aides and [1:41] people around him have gone to try to inoculate and protect the president from some of the more [1:47] disturbing and problematic claims and pieces of information that were inevitably going to come [1:57] out in some way if the F-Steam files were released. That has sort of become essentially a self-fulfilling [2:03] prophecy or a vicious cycle in some ways, in that this is the new cycle that has never ended for them [2:10] because of the lack of transparency. I think it's also revealed some fractures within this White House, [2:15] which is something that they have had sort of publicly outside of the war in Iran done a good [2:21] job of preventing from leaking out there. But another issue that J.D. Vance has differed from [2:26] Donald Trump on. Right. It's so fascinating to learn from this reporting what Vance's reaction to the [2:34] Epstein files saga has been. Since dating back almost a year ago, they report the vice president [2:42] appeared panicked. Of course, we know Vance has never been fully in step with the president on [2:48] this. But how is this revelation, plus what we mentioned of him suggesting Tucker Carlson interview [2:54] Ghislaine Maxwell, how is it different than what we already knew about where the president and the [2:58] vice president don't see eye to eye? Yeah, I'm not necessarily sure that it's [3:03] different, but I do think it's illustrative and revelatory about some of the frustrations that we [3:11] and myself have also been hearing from senior White House aides about the fact that J.D. Vance lives [3:18] online, that he is someone who is too online, too wrapped up in the MAGA online ecosystem, and [3:27] that he does sort of propagate and buy into some of these conspiracy theories that, in the case of [3:34] the Epstein files, has come back and created sort of a monster of its own to bite this administration [3:40] back, you know, not just politically, but also just sort of morally, if we are taking a step back and [3:49] looking at this in an apolitical way. There, you know, this is something that initially, this was a [3:57] conversation that also cropped up again during some of the fractures that started to emerge during the [4:03] Iran war. I was told by some senior aides that they felt like they were brushing off the criticisms [4:11] from Tucker Carlson, Marjorie Taylor Greene, some of the MAGA online influencers, while J.D. Vance was sort [4:17] of online reading them, and it was essentially fueling some of his private consternation about the [4:23] war. So it's now, I think, certainly, again, illustrative to see yet another example of J.D. Vance's dive into [4:36] the MAGA media ecosystem online and the way that sort of impacts his everyday job as President Trump's [4:43] vice president. Danielle, I could understand the strategy of trying to utilize MAGA media, [4:49] but suggesting Tucker Carlson interview Maxwell, what's your reaction to that? [4:55] I mean, I think that it's incredibly shocking, but for me, what is most disturbing are the people that [5:00] were in the Situation Room. And the way that Haberman and Swan started off their piece was stating [5:08] what the Situation Room is actually used for, right, like war and discussions of strategy around our [5:16] foreign relations and domestic issues, etc. And the fact that so many of Donald Trump's top staff [5:23] cabinet members were in that Situation Room without him to discuss how to cater, right, how to create a [5:30] PR package for the Epstein files is incredibly shocking. But the idea that you would get Tucker [5:38] Carlson to sit down with Ghislaine Maxwell and Tucker Carlson, who has been at odds with this White House [5:44] on a number of issues, is really just—it's extraordinary. But to me, the most extraordinary [5:51] part is how many people were involved in the spin, in the cover-up, and in the lie that this White House [5:57] said that Donald Trump had nothing to do with the Epstein files. And yet, these are not the actions [6:02] that are taken by innocent people. [6:04] There's been just a drip, drip, drip of the Epstein files since the start of this administration. Mark, [6:10] what's your big takeaway from what this says about the administration's apparent dysfunction and [6:16] inability to handle a crisis? [6:18] Well, you drip, drip right into my metaphor that I was going to use. [6:24] Mind-meld. [6:25] Yeah. Because, you know, I did comms for presidents and candidates most of my adult life. And, [6:33] you know, the maxim was always, when you have bad news, the best way to deal with it is to get it [6:37] all out as quickly as possible and be transparent. And this is just the worst case possible. This is [6:43] like they had a dam or a reservoir full of bad news. And rather than just break the dam and let [6:49] it blow, they have, as you said, let it drip, drip, drip. So we've gotten news almost every day since [6:56] the beginning that's bad news. And the cumulative effect is way worse than I project and suggest [7:05] than would have happened had they just let it all out at the beginning. But they're paying the [7:09] consequences for it. And again, where will this story even end at this point? [7:15] Among the people inside the Situation Room was Todd Blanche, then Deputy Attorney General. And I want [7:21] to read a portion about his role in these White House discussions. Quote, as the president's former [7:27] defense attorney, Blanche had a unique vantage point in the discussion. He was better equipped than [7:32] anyone else in that room to weigh the ideas being discussed against Trump's personal and political [7:38] interests. Blanche laid out what he saw as their best options. One option, he mentioned, was to [7:45] petition the courts to release grand jury transcripts. Another was to have DOJ lawyers interview Maxwell, [7:50] which, of course, we then saw Blanche do. What ended up happening, obviously, has come from that. [8:01] How did it all work out for them, Danielle? [8:03] I mean, I don't think that it worked out well. And here's something that I find really interesting. [8:08] So in the article, right, they're discussing the fact that Todd Blanche, right, was offering up all [8:14] of these options. And in them, pardoning her was on the table, right? Everyone pushed back, [8:21] apparently—well, some people in that room pushed back on a possible pardon because of what would [8:27] happen if, in fact, she was pardoned, what would happen with their base. But—and they said that there [8:32] should be no special treatment that is given to Ghislaine Maxwell because, apparently, they thought that [8:37] she didn't really have any damning information on Donald Trump. But then Todd Blanche goes and sits [8:43] down with her, moves her from a maximum security prison into a lesser secure—a less security [8:50] prison, right, where she now has more access to activities, to animals, to all of these different [8:58] things. And so, on one hand, they said, let's not pardon her because of how that will look. [9:02] But then he turned around after that interview that he did with her and then decides to move her [9:09] to a minimum security prison. This is a woman that was involved in trafficking children, right? And so, [9:16] again, I think that what came out of this article are all of the ways, all of the options, all of the [9:22] things that were being thrown at the table—being thrown at the wall—but that were being led by folks [9:28] inside of the Justice Department, namely the deputy and the attorney general of the United States. And [9:35] that, in and of itself, is incredible. It does sound, according to this reporting, it sounds like [9:41] Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche was given a huge role in deciding what to do about the Epstein [9:50] issue. And now the president has nominated him to be the attorney general. Mark, what does it say [9:58] about the power he wields inside this administration? [10:04] Well, one of the things we know about Donald Trump is that he was very unhappy with his attorney general [10:10] from the first term. And that was something that he was going to change dramatically so that he [10:16] literally—and now he literally has his own personal attorney as the attorney general, [10:20] which is what he's always wanted. So—and I think the whole—and it's so problematic to have that [10:28] person at the center of so much of what's going on with the Epstein files. I mean, the whole issue of [10:34] his interview with Ghislaine Maxwell and then the transfer to minimum security prison, I mean, [10:39] that just—you talk about quacking like a duck. That quacks like a duck. I mean, it's a duck, [10:45] folks. How could it not be more obvious what's going on there? So that just makes it more problematic [10:51] for his confirmation. But at the end of the day, I don't think Trump cares, [10:55] because what he wants is the guy who's going to stand by him, protect him through anything. [11:00] It's insulting our intelligence. Like, obviously, the intelligence community is trying to cover it up. [11:04] Obviously, the Trump administration is trying to cover up. Something changed because they ran on [11:09] this idea of exposing it all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [11:11] I believe the country deserves transparency in these files. [11:14] When you have this one hardcore line in the sand that everybody's been talking about forever, [11:19] and then they're trying to gaslight you on that. [11:22] How many of you are not satisfied with the results of the investigation? [11:26] Oh, hi again, everybody. It's 5 o'clock in New York. Never before in his political life [11:38] had Donald Trump dealt with this. Never before had he faced anger, this much anger and backlash [11:45] from his loyal, faithful MAGA coalition, and especially that hardcore base. Calls for the release [11:52] of the Epstein files became the undeniable first rip, the original sin that will not and would not go [11:59] away. And any attempt to quell the furor and the appetite of his core supporters only enraged [12:07] them even more. In a breathtaking new piece of reporting published in New York Magazine, [12:12] adopted from reporting for an upcoming book called Regime Change, journalists Maggie Haberman [12:18] and Jonathan Swan reveal a White House rocked and completely thrown off by indecision and concern [12:25] as they navigated what to do with the Epstein files. They write this, quote, [12:29] behind the scenes, the Epstein crisis was paralyzing the Trump administration [12:34] to a far greater extent than the public knew. In their public statements, Trump's advisors were [12:40] full of bravado dismissing the crisis. But in reality, it was consuming the highest ranks of [12:45] the administration as no issue had for the president's team since the Russia investigation [12:50] in his first term. His aides were determined to keep their rising sense of panic out of public view. [12:56] Among the astonishing revelations how the famous secluded location where numerous national [13:03] security crises have been handled, the White House Situation Room, that became a frequent spot [13:10] to hash out the political impact of Donald Trump's relationship with a dead convicted child sex [13:16] predator. Quote, as the calls for transparency grew louder, the top ranks of the Trump administration [13:22] spent even more time in the bunker. By now, the Situation Room itself had become inseparable from [13:29] the crisis, a guarded space where Trump's inner circle worked to steer the president around a scandal [13:35] that would soon taint or consume careers at the highest levels of business, science, and politics. [13:41] The new reporting, the result of more than 1,000 interviews, many given anonymously, [13:47] goes into great detail about fissures among Justice Department officials about how to handle the fallout, [13:54] including a massive fight between then-Attorney General Pam Bondi and Dan Bongino, [13:59] the deputy director of the FBI. They write this, quote, [14:02] The day the memo was released, Bongino showed up to a daily Justice Department meeting with the FBI [14:08] staff and the attorney general. He was in a volcanic mood. As soon as he entered the room, [14:14] he erupted at Pam Bondi, shouting at her. You effed this thing up from the start, Bongino yelled. [14:20] Quote, the way you've been talking about this, that dumb effing charade with the Epstein files, [14:25] the files there on my desk, nonsense, all the promises to the folks out there. Patel and Bongino, [14:32] both subsequently told a White House official that Pam Bondi needed to resign. [14:37] Yet looming over all of these discussions, Haberman and Swan write this, quote, [14:43] There was one major obstacle in the path of a solution. The president himself still had [14:48] no interest in transparency. He wanted the whole Epstein issue buried, and he was snapping at [14:54] anyone who mentioned it. His staff largely avoided the subject in their conversations with him, [14:59] forced to worry among themselves. New York Times notes that in response to a request for comment, [15:05] a White House spokeswoman repeated Trump's claims. He was innocent in all Epstein-related [15:11] matters. The chaos and panic inside the White House over the Jeffrey Epstein files is where we begin [15:16] the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. Puck News senior political columnist and [15:21] national affairs analyst John Heilman is here, so buckle up. Also joining us, political analyst, [15:27] former Senator Claire McCaskill is here. I should just say Jonathan Swan and Maggie Haberman, [15:34] two of the most prolific and well-sourced reporters in this area. This is from their new book, [15:41] Regime Change, and this is a book based on 1,000 interviews. Heilman, your first impressions of this. [15:49] Well, my first impressions, Nicole, are that this book is going to be a big deal. It's out in a couple [16:00] weeks, and you'll recall I was on set with you the day when a piece was published that was not [16:06] a direct excerpt from the book, but that was based in Maggie and Jonathan's incredibly well-sourced [16:13] reporting about the run-up to the war in Iran. And we spent a fair amount of time talking about [16:18] an extraordinarily vivid picture they painted of all the participants in that debate and the role [16:23] of Bibi Netanyahu and so on. This story in the Times that is an actual excerpt from the book [16:28] has every one of those hallmarks of authenticity, credibility, detail, and vividness that we saw in [16:37] that earlier reporting only more so. And I just—the top-line thing I'll say, and we can get into all of [16:42] this more deeply later, but just merely the fact that throughout this excerpt that the White House [16:49] Situation Room, which we knew there had been some meetings related to Jeffrey Epstein, but we didn't [16:55] know that the White House Situation Room through much of last summer was really ground zero for [17:00] their—the war room that they assembled effectively to try to deal with the metastasizing [17:07] crisis that the Epstein files created for Donald Trump. And the piece has amazingly vivid detail. [17:15] I mean, just, you know, the amount of dialogue quoted that I find very difficult to imagine [17:23] that's going to be rebutted by anybody. Probably people will call—in the administration will call [17:26] it fake news. But when you read it, it has that kind of novelistic detail that just rings of—especially [17:32] with the credibility of these reporters—that rings of truth. And the picture that it paints of J.D. [17:36] Vance and all of the players in Donald Trump's inner circle in this period, going into the [17:41] Situation Room repeatedly to try to deal with this—I mean, I know you know what—you know [17:45] what the hallowed ground the Situation Room is and what the Situation Room is normally used [17:49] for. The idea that it was used primarily in this case as essentially a communications war room [17:54] to deal with a strictly political crisis that had to do with the president of the United States [17:58] and threatened his presidency is an amazing thing. And again, we'll talk, I'm sure, in this block about [18:06] the details that are in it. But it is just mind-bending. And it does, in its largest sense, [18:13] the story gives a lot of credibility to the notion that up until this moment, when the Epstein files [18:20] became the major story that it became, Donald Trump was riding about as high as he had ever [18:24] written in the White House. And this was the beginning of what turned out to be a year [18:30] of unraveling for Donald Trump. And it paints a very, like I said, extraordinarily vivid and damning [18:36] picture, I would say, of the people around Donald Trump and some of the suggestions that they put out [18:41] in those meetings for how to deal with it, almost none of which had anything to do with what was [18:46] right, what did justice to the victims. It was all about, as everything else in this White House is, [18:52] how to protect Donald Trump and limit the political fallout. [18:57] Yeah, I mean, Claire, in terms of what was public-facing to us, right, we saw Todd Blanche [19:02] go sit with Ghislaine Maxwell. And I remember seeing Chris Christie on ABC News say it was unheard of [19:08] for a deputy attorney general to do that and not take anyone and not release an audio. Well, [19:14] the piece makes clear that none of the meetings in the sit room, and I have a theory about why they [19:19] were in the sit room. I think they were hiding from Donald Trump. I think these were meetings [19:23] that they needed to have without—I mean, a lot of their gathering seems to happen in the Oval, [19:28] which has been described as Grand Central. But you've got to go down a really skinny set of stairs [19:33] or an elevator, which is also pretty little. I think they were having these meetings down there [19:38] probably earlier in the morning so that he wouldn't stumble into them. [19:42] I want to read a little bit more from the piece, though, about J.D. Vance, Claire, [19:48] who Heilman mentioned. The vice president appeared panicked to others in the room [19:52] about the way the subject of Epstein was already dividing the MAGA coalition. [19:57] Some senior officials have the impression that J.D. Vance had bought into the darkest theories [20:02] about Epstein and a cabal of predators hidden within the country's ruling class. [20:07] Susie Wiles would tell others that the VP had proved himself to be a major conspiracy theorist. [20:12] Vance was privately pressing for the administration to release all the Epstein files, [20:16] everything in DOJ's possession, even encouraging a congressional investigation. [20:21] J.D. Vance had also floated to colleagues an extraordinary PR gambit that the White House [20:26] enlists Tucker Carlson to interview Epstein's longtime girlfriend and co-conspirator Ghislaine [20:31] Maxwell in prison. It might help the president if Maxwell was willing to state that Trump had not [20:37] been part of any wrongdoing with Epstein. What's interesting is that J.D. Vance, [20:42] J.D. Vance is right about what would happen politically, that there would be a congressional [20:46] investigation, but he's wrong about what would happen with Maxwell. It's actually Todd Blanche, [20:54] Trump's man on the inside, that would go sit down with Maxwell. And the interview was [20:59] not broadcast or released publicly. And I guess we don't know all the reasons why now we can guess. [21:05] Claire? Well, yeah. Listen, the interesting thing about J.D. Vance here is there are two times that [21:13] it has been very obvious, and it's even more obvious now with this reporting, that he really [21:18] disagreed with the Trump administration's position. One is the release of the Epstein files, and two is [21:25] the Iran war. And if you look at those two things, those are largely responsible for the erosion of [21:33] Trump's numbers in his own party. It is those two things where he has dramatically gone back on campaign [21:42] promises to, one, expose the Epstein files, and two, not get into wars. So J.D. Vance, his political [21:51] instincts are correct here. Unfortunately, he has no power, and clearly the president doesn't respect [21:56] his opinion because he's not listening. And yeah, they were in the sit room because they wanted to [22:02] avoid Donald Trump. Who knew that the sit room was going to be the hallowed place where we talked about [22:09] sex scandals that the president was afraid of coming out in public? And clearly there's only one reason [22:17] this stuff hasn't been released. It's not, you know, protecting the innocent. It's not him worrying [22:23] about the victims. It is just Donald Trump. There is stuff in this file, and the article even references [22:30] some of it. You know, it's weird to be talking about nipples and the Deadline White House show, [22:36] but they were talking about it in the sit room over Donald Trump's proclivity to have certain sexual [22:43] activity with some of these girls. So this isn't going away. It will continue to be a deal. And now [22:50] this book is going to open it up again, along with Gates testifying. We've still got other people in [22:57] Epstein's orbit that are going to have to testify. And at the end of the day, they have done so much more [23:03] damage. As always, the cover-up is always worse than the crime. In this case, I'm not sure. [23:09] Yeah. Halman, we had you pinned as the person who would bring up the nipple clip, but it was Claire. [23:17] To begin with what many are calling a bombshell investigative report out of the New York Times, [23:21] detailing the long-running issues in the Epstein scandal, which caused an internal [23:25] freakout at the Trump White House. This reporting is actually through the process that we've sometimes [23:30] seen before, where journalists who work at an outlet on a daily sort of beat also work on longer-form [23:36] projects and books. And so the reporting is, we should mention, part of an upcoming book by several [23:42] of the top sort of Trump White House reporters and D.C. reporters on the beat. And they, in this [23:48] process, actually say they spoke to over a thousand sources. So this is more than even just one or two [23:55] big articles. This is drawing off of all of that. And it reports how the Trump White House officials [24:00] and administration looked at the Epstein scandal as so serious that top officials—let's take this for [24:05] the viewers in full so they can read it—top officials were gathering in the White House [24:10] Situation Room. That is, of course, the secure bunker where classified high-stakes national security [24:16] matters are discussed. For contrast, it's not a place where you deal with political domestic spin. [24:22] It's where this historic moment occurred, where President Obama and Vice President Biden were [24:26] tracking, along with the national security team, the ongoing operation to take out and kill Osama [24:32] bin Laden. That was 2011. That's the Situation Room, at least when used by presidents who take it [24:38] seriously. The Times knowing the Trump officials used it to try to gain measure of control over a very [24:44] different kind of crisis threatening to engulf the presidency. They continue to use the situation for [24:52] those discussions. The Times reports that by summer 25, the Situation Room itself had become [24:57] basically inseparable from the Epstein crisis. This is more than a matter of staging. It sort of tells [25:05] you about the use, abuse, and misplaced priorities, according to critics, of how they dealt with the [25:10] Epstein crisis. Trump's vice president was the most vocal about releasing the Epstein files, [25:16] reportedly arguing that even unsubstantiated allegations and anecdotes about Trump should go [25:22] out. This is interesting because it takes you inside what was this rolling process. The Times reported [25:27] if the administration published them first. It would demonstrate good faith. It would take the [25:31] oxygen out of the conspiracy theories, they thought. Now, that tidbit could be significant [25:37] considering how Trump's top DOJ official was flip-flopping over the files released. Bondi [25:42] was saying this a month after taking office. The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's [25:50] clients. Will that really happen? It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a [25:56] directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that. Bondi had infamously asserted falsely that she had [26:03] the client list on her desk. That was quickly undercut by the facts. And then the DOJ, under her, [26:11] this was a Bondi DOJ memo, had to admit there was no client list. They didn't uncover evidence, [26:16] they said, for an investigation against any uncharged third parties. That, by the way, remains [26:20] controversial as the House continues to hear witnesses who think there are people, including [26:25] powerful men that maybe should be charged. And then, as you see here, they claim there was no [26:29] further disclosure of the Epstein files that would be appropriate, which stoked outrage, disbelief and [26:35] anger from many, from survivors to independent legal experts to, of course, the people Trump had [26:42] promised would get the files, the MAGA base. How come you redact some people and you don't redact [26:51] other people? Like, what is this? This is not good. None of this is good for this administration. [26:57] It looks f***ing terrible. It's the way they've handled the scandal has been so bad. [27:02] Completely agree. This is self-inflicted. The current DOJ, under Pam Bondi, is covering up [27:07] crimes. Very serious crimes. It looks terrible. It looks terrible for Trump when he was saying [27:14] that none of this was real, this is all a hoax. This is not a hoax. There is something there, [27:20] and it's being covered up, and the president blessed it. That's just from some of the people who'd [27:26] been historically aligned and friendly to Trump on this, to say nothing of survivors, [27:31] independent experts, and others. And so this Times report drops today at a period where Trump has [27:37] again failed to stem the interest in Congress, including congressional Republicans. We continue [27:44] to hear from witnesses yesterday and today. What you're looking at on your screen is from that same [27:48] time period, because this was lying to your own people. Those binders have nothing important in them, [27:56] but they were labeled Epstein files. Trump lying to his base and feeding an awareness on the right [28:03] that he was part of the cover-up. The person who promised the transparency was actually misusing [28:10] the government to keep the secrets of the pedophiles and lying to his very base. Administration feeding [28:16] information to those conservative personalities, thinking that it might work. According to the Times, [28:21] in this new account, Bondi and that approach, which clearly wasn't working by any measure, [28:27] not for policy transparency and not for politically stemming the crisis, was infuriating the number two [28:33] at the FBI, Dan Bongino, who had actually wrote this issue on his podcast sort of to his national [28:39] acclaim. And so the new report today says Bongino was erupting at Bondi during one meeting, [28:46] yelling at her, you blanked this thing up from the start. The way you've been talking about this, [28:51] that dumb blanking charade with the Epstein files, the there-on-my-desk nonsense, all the promises [28:58] to the folks out there. Now, I'm reading from a new account. The Times does not publish something [29:03] like that in quotes unless they really think they have it. Now, maybe Bongino was happy to confirm it [29:09] because he has ever since then tried to tell his supporters and others the problem was the White [29:16] House and Bondi, not him. But whatever the reasoning of these sources, this is a very serious report [29:21] about the level of meltdown and rancor over the Epstein secrecy. Now, fast forward to today, [29:28] Bongino's out. He was, according to the article, thinking about trying to leave that day but stayed [29:33] on to be helpful to Trump. Bondi, of course, is out partly over this Epstein problem. Bongino, [29:39] of course, has gone back to where he makes more money and maybe finds a better life schedule. [29:45] On his show, he said this about the files. [29:48] I wanted to see the files, folks. I said, don't let it go. I meant it. We got elected. We looked [29:54] at it. The file was not—what was in there was not what we thought would be in there. It's not [29:59] going to satisfy many, and that's fine. But, folks, I'm not going to spend the next two years talking [30:04] about it. This administration got you the information. [30:08] You're not going to spend the next couple years talking about it. You just spent the last couple [30:12] years talking about it. I'm only smiling at the political convenience of it, not, of course, [30:17] the underlying seriousness. But that's the question. Who really cares about the seriousness [30:21] of the issue and who just tried to use and abuse it? A White House spokesperson telling The Times [30:26] Trump's claims that he was innocent in Epstein matters, that that's long been the case, that [30:31] they've always said that. President Trump, they say, has done more for Epstein's victims than anyone [30:36] before him. Fact check, false. Now, I will tell you that prior administrations in both parties [30:45] also failed transparency in the victims. That's according to what we've learned in our reporting, [30:50] and we've heard many victims and their advocates say that. So if you're looking at this from a party [30:55] standpoint, both parties have overseen DOJ and FBI during periods that have failed the victims. [31:01] But the upside-down claim that this one was better is completely false and something that kind of a lot [31:07] of people agree on. I mean, I just showed you. Rogan, Tucker, Meghan, survivors, experts. Nobody thinks [31:14] they've done a good job on it. As for those in Trump's corner, The Times reports that by late summer, [31:20] it was apparent to the president's age that the Epstein saga was not the same as the countless [31:26] other crises they'd weathered to their great surprise and disquiet. Quote, Trump's old tricks [31:31] of deflection and denial were not working. Didn't work then. Didn't work until today. [31:39] And while Trump and Vance had hoped that when the stuff finally came out, even over Donald Trump's [31:45] opposition, and when Congress made them release it, that by then it would be a bad news cycle and [31:51] eventually go away. And yet here we are today discussing not only this exhaustive account [31:57] from The Times, but the witnesses that have come forward yesterday, Epstein's longtime secretary, [32:02] and today, Bill Gates, shows that Congress, even on a bipartisan basis, continues to pull the threads [32:09] on this massive scandal. Right. So and just to be clear, I mean, I'm on the opinion side. We're [32:13] totally separate from the news side. But just so this is from what I've read. I mean, one of the things [32:18] that jumped out to me is that they were actually talking about a pardon at one point for Jillian [32:24] Maxwell. Right. I mean, I think that I'm not sure if that conversation itself happened in the [32:28] situation room, but we've been wondering how she ended up in this relatively cushy prison that she [32:35] was not supposed to be eligible for. It doesn't exactly give us answers, but they were talking about [32:39] kind of offering her some sort of incentive to give an interview that would take the heat off Donald [32:45] Trump. And sure enough, she gave an interview that meant to take the heat off Donald Trump with [32:51] Todd Blanch. And now she's in a much better place. The other thing that struck me is that [32:58] these were very meticulously reconstructed conversations among a very relatively small [33:04] inner circle. And so they've all got to be looking at each other now thinking, who is, you know, [33:10] who can I trust? Right. Like, who is going to repeat the details of this conversation? And, [33:16] you know, I think that we can now see in retrospect to your last point that this was the beginning of [33:23] a crack up in this coalition that is ongoing and that has been exacerbated by this debacle in Iran. [33:33] When reporters finally got a chance to ask questions and one of them asked about the terrible [33:39] inflation number that came out this morning, showing the highest inflation rate of Donald [33:44] Trump's presidency. Donald Trump's first lie was to say, I love it. Those are his exact first words. [33:52] I love it. His second lie was the numbers were glitched. Donald Trump trying to tell you that every [34:00] number the government issues is wrong, whether it's a vote count in Los Angeles or an inflation number [34:06] that he doesn't like. But he instantly abandoned his lie about the inflation number was glitched, [34:13] whatever that was supposed to mean. And then he said these exact words. You know what I really love? [34:20] I love the inflation. You know why? And then he rambled about his war in Iran and he actually [34:29] never answered the question about why he loves inflation. [34:37] Mr. President, about the latest inflation number, which came out this morning. Could that be a [34:41] No, I love it. The numbers were great. You know what I really love? I love the inflation. You know why? [34:47] Because as soon as this war is over, you know, I can say it now, something you didn't know. You know, [34:53] we've been taking out millions of barrels of oil. Nobody knows it. You know who doesn't know about it? [35:00] Iran until right now. We took out the other night, 22 ships late at night with no lights because they [35:08] don't have any radar because we blasted the crap out of it. And then he just kept going and he [35:16] completely forgot about the lie that he suggested he was going to answer the, I love the inflation. [35:23] You know why? He forgot to answer the why question that he asked of himself. This is the sleazy real [35:32] estate salesman's pitch at work. This is Donald Trump trying to sell an apartment in the 1980s and [35:37] the potential buyer looks out the window and sees nothing but the brick wall of the building next [35:41] door. And Donald Trump says, I love that there's no view. And then he goes on to tell the buyer about [35:45] how much better it is for sleeping that you'll never have any direct sunlight in this apartment [35:49] waking you up all the time. The lying salesman junk, that desperate, fast-talking liars like Donald [35:58] Trump traffic in so nervously as he did today. Donald Trump saying today he loves inflation. [36:05] He loves every price going up. He likes everything being more expensive. He loves that. He wants [36:11] everything to be more expensive for everyone out there who voted for him to make everything less [36:17] expensive. The stock market was already having a bad day. And then when Donald Trump said, I love [36:25] inflation, the stock market got much worse. 79-year-old Donald Trump, who's days away from [36:30] being 80-year-old Donald Trump, gets lost in his own lies now much more than he used to. And so when he [36:38] says, I love the inflation, and then asks, you know why, he forgets the why. And so Republicans running [36:45] for election are left with the burden of Donald Trump saying, I love inflation. And Democrats can show [36:51] Donald Trump saying that on video in as many campaign commercials as they want. In a tense meeting in [37:01] the Situation Room, where the White House can monitor every potential hotspot in the world, the Vice [37:07] President of the United States said, this is a huge problem. It is the same Situation Room that has faced [37:15] huge problems before, just as President John F. Kennedy did facing down the Cuban Missile Crisis in the [37:22] Situation Room in 1962, when the world came the closest it ever has to nuclear war. And that's what [37:33] ranks as a huge problem in the Situation Room. The same place where Vice President Joe Biden sat with [37:42] President Obama and other national security officials watching the successful mission President Obama [37:46] authorized to apprehend or kill Osama bin Laden. But in Donald Trump's White House, the Situation Room [37:55] has been disgracefully degraded to the place where they discuss the Epstein files. The scene is delivered [38:06] in remarkable reporting, including over 1,000 interviews of people close to Donald Trump by New York Times [38:13] reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan in an excerpt of their forthcoming book printed in the New York [38:19] Times today under the headline, Inside the White House Freakout Over the Epstein Files. The title of their book [38:27] that will be published in two weeks is Regime Change Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump. [38:34] It can be pre-ordered online now, as I have already done. When reached for comment, the White House did not [38:44] respond to any specific details in the New York Times report. The Situation Room meeting described in the [38:52] book happened 11 months ago, just 11 months ago, on July 17th of last summer. Vice President James [39:00] David Vance was the highest ranking official in the Situation Room. Donald Trump's Chief of Staff was there, [39:04] his White House counsel, his press secretary, along with his trusted Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, [39:10] who is also his former criminal defense lawyer. Attorney General Pantala Bondi and FBI Director [39:16] Kashyap Patel joined the discussion by speakerphone. Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan in their reporting in the New York Times, [39:22] The Vice President appeared panicked to others in the room about the way the subject of Epstein was already [39:31] dividing the MAGA coalition. He was privately pressing for the administration to release all [39:37] the Epstein files. Vance had also floated to colleagues an extraordinary PR gambit that the [39:43] White House enlists Tucker Carlson to interview Epstein's longtime girlfriend and co-conspirator [39:48] Ghislaine Maxwell in prison. It might help the president if Maxwell was willing to state that [39:54] Trump had not been part of any wrongdoing with Epstein. Vance told the group that he believed all [40:00] the files should be released as soon as possible. He argued that Congress was going to force the release [40:06] of the Epstein files eventually. On the White House counsel, David Warrington said Ghislaine Maxwell [40:12] could be given a pardon or have her sentence reduced. There were objections, not because it [40:18] was the wrong thing to do, but because it, quote, would create a huge PR problem. So we now have [40:25] detailed descriptions of discussions in the White House that mirror what we suspected they were doing [40:31] in the White House a year ago. We speculated on this program a year ago about exactly what they were [40:36] doing there, about the possibility of Donald Trump wanting to pardon Ghislaine Maxwell. In exchange for [40:42] Ghislaine Maxwell, saying she never saw Donald Trump do anything wrong. In that meeting, in the [40:48] situation room, Todd Blanche came up with the idea of asking federal judges in Florida and New York to [40:54] unseal grand jury testimony in the Epstein-related cases, which everyone agreed was a good idea, [40:59] especially when Todd Blanche predicted that the judges would refuse to release the grand jury [41:05] transcripts. The Times reports, if the courts refused to unseal them, as Blanche predicted, [41:11] they could shift the blame for withholding the Epstein material away from the Trump administration [41:17] and onto the judges. And all the better. If the judges had been appointed by Democratic presidents, [41:24] Blanche's suggestion would make it appear that the White House wanted the materials released when it was [41:29] almost certain not to happen. Todd Blanche's alternative to J.D. Vance's idea about having Tucker Carlson [41:39] interviewed Ghislaine Maxwell was for Todd Blanche himself to interview Ghislaine Maxwell, which is [41:45] exactly what Todd Blanche then did. There is a dramatic account in the book excerpt of the deputy [41:52] director of the FBI, Dan Bongino, clashing with the Attorney General Bondi and White House Chief of [41:59] Staff Susie Wiles. Bongino showed up to a daily Justice Department meeting with the FBI staff and the [42:06] Attorney General. He was in a volcanic mood. As soon as he entered the room, he erupted at Bondi, [42:12] shouting at her, you effed this thing up from the start. Bongino yelled, the way you've been talking [42:19] about this, that dumb effing charade with the Epstein files, the they're on my desk nonsense, [42:26] all the promises to the folks out there. Patel and Bongino both subsequently told a White House [42:31] official that Bondi needed to resign. Two days later, on July 9th, the two men were summoned to [42:37] a meeting with Wiles and Bondi in the Situation Room Complex. They were the last to enter the small [42:43] wood-paneled room. Seated around the table were Bondi, Wiles, Blanche, and Taylor Butowich, one of [42:50] Wiles' deputies. The moment Bongino sat down, Wiles told him that she had been informed he leaked a [42:58] sensitive story about Epstein and Trump to ABC News. I'll tell you what, Bongino replied, I'll give you [43:03] $100,000 cash right now. I'm not kidding. Walk out to West Exec, put that reporter on speaker, and get [43:10] him to admit I leaked it. $100,000. Bongino's aggressive response to Wiles startled the others. [43:17] She was the White House Chief of Staff, essentially a stand-in for the President. Wiles put Bongino on the [43:24] spot. Going forward, she said, we're all in. We're all going to agree to move forward. Are you in or [43:30] not? No, I'm not, Bongino said. This is not my plan. I'm not part of this going forward. Forget it. I'm [43:38] out of here. He stormed out of the Situation Room, and he eventually resigned his position at the FBI. [43:46] Maggie Haverman and Jonathan Swan report the relationships at the top of the Justice Department [43:51] were, by now, beyond dysfunctional. At another July meeting in Wiles' office, Bongino and Patel [43:57] told the Chief of Staff they suspected that Bondi had leaked negative stories about them. [44:03] Blondi effed this whole thing up, Bongino later told a confidant. She was the one on TV saying, [44:11] over and over, they had all this stuff. There was never anything. We were always clear about that. [44:17] But now everyone thinks we did something wrong, and I gave up everything. Bongino complained that [44:23] he had given up his high-rated show and millions of dollars, and now it's all disappeared because [44:28] people think we screwed something up with Epstein. Bongino paused. This is going to be Donald Trump's [44:35] Iran-Contra. The book includes Donald Trump's reaction to his supporters turning against him [44:42] on the Epstein files. Trump told aides he was very unhappy with some of his most influential [44:48] supporters, including Charlie Kirk, Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, all of whom were publicly urging the [44:54] administration to come clean. Kirk had held a Turning Point USA event the previous day that turned [45:01] into an Epstein grievance fest, with one speaker after another bashing Bondi over her handling of the [45:08] situation. Trump had called Kirk and scolded him. The book excerpt that appears in the New York Times [45:16] ends this way. The Epstein crisis had exposed something that some of Trump's closest advisors [45:22] spent months refusing to see. The president could break institutions, redirect the federal government [45:28] against his enemies, and bring the world's richest men into the Oval Office bearing tribute. But he could [45:36] not, it turned out, make Jeffrey Epstein disappear. Today we learned just what this administration [45:45] does consider a crisis worthy of their attention. A bombshell new report today in the New York Times [45:51] details how top Trump officials spent multiple days, starting last summer, meeting in the Situation Room, [45:57] trying to figure out how to deal with the political fallout from their botched handling of the Epstein [46:02] files. Now that reporting includes a number of completely bananas details, including how the guy who was [46:08] next in line to the presidency, yes, Manchurian J.D. Vance, proposed asking Tucker Carlson to bail [46:16] them out by interviewing Epstein's co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell. One official described one of the [46:21] Situation Room meetings as surreal after the whole thing devolved into a lengthy discussion about nipples. [46:29] Again, this is a meeting that took place in the part of the White House where Barack Obama watched the [46:34] strike that killed Osama bin Laden. And Trump's team used it to talk about nipples, which tells you [46:40] kind of everything you need to know. We've suspected for a long time that Todd Blanche had an ulterior motive [46:47] when he made the highly unusual decision last summer to personally interview Ghislaine Maxwell. [46:52] As Jeffrey Epstein's partner in crime, Maxwell was, and still is, serving a 20-year sentence for sex [46:58] trafficking and conspiracy. And people like that don't typically get high-profile visits from top [47:04] DOJ officials, especially not from a sitting deputy attorney general. But when you consider that [47:10] Blanche's last job was defense attorney to Donald Trump, it makes a lot more sense because his interview [47:15] with Maxwell sounded less like an effort to find the facts and much more like an attempt to clear [47:21] Trump's name. What did you observe as far as President Trump and his relationship with you [47:29] or Mr. Epstein? Did you ever observe President Trump receive a massage? When's the last time you [47:35] think you saw in person President Trump? Did you ever hear Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President [47:45] Trump had done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with anybody in your world? Do you remember one [47:50] where the other, whether President Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday? I mean, it certainly [47:57] felt like Blanche was prodding Maxwell to absolve his former client, didn't it? And now new reporting [48:04] confirms that that was indeed the point of the whole interview. In a story accepted from their [48:08] upcoming book, for which they spoke to over a thousand people, New York Times reporters Maggie [48:13] Haberman and Jonathan Swan reveal how Blanche's interview of a notorious predator was the White House's [48:18] solution to Trump's PR nightmare over Jeffrey Epstein. Of course it was. And I just want to note again [48:24] that normal presidents use the Situation Room for national security purposes. I mean, remember the [48:30] famous photo of President Obama watching the bin Laden raid unfold from the sit room in 2011? [48:35] That's kind of the idea. That's what it's intended for. But this White House decided to use the [48:41] Situation Room for damage control over the Epstein files, including one meeting at the time, [48:47] the Wall Street Journal revealed the existence of Epstein's infamous birthday book. That's where [48:52] they were, in the sit room discussing the Epstein files. Now, according to the reporting, Vice [48:56] President J.D. Vance took a seat at the head of the table and told the senior officials in the room [49:01] that, quote, this is a huge problem. Folks inside said the Vice President appeared panicked before he [49:07] proposed what the Times dubbed an extraordinary PR gambit that the White House enlists Tucker Carlson to [49:13] interview Ghislaine Maxwell in prison, thinking was that it might help the president if Maxwell was [49:18] willing to state that Trump had not been part of any wrongdoing with Epstein. That was all described [49:23] in the reporting. So the goal from the beginning was to get Epstein's accomplice to vouch for Donald [49:30] Trump. And I'm sure everyone probably knew she would never implicate the guy who had the power to [49:35] pardon her. Of course not. So all of that was problematic enough, even before Todd Blanche [49:40] proposed his own twist on Vance's idea. Blanche's pitch was to have Justice Department lawyers [49:47] question Maxwell and publicly release the transcript. Blanche even offered to, quote, [49:52] interview Maxwell himself. What is also quite revealing is that from the earliest discussion [49:58] of the idea, Blanche noted the potential for a quid pro quo. Now, according to the Times, [50:04] Blanche raised the possibility that Maxwell's lawyer might expect something in return for her [50:08] candor. Now, we don't know whether Maxwell's team actually asked for anything or if that point was [50:13] discussed any further from the reporting to date. But what we do know is the timing was very freaking [50:20] suspicious. I mean, Blanche shut down with Maxwell on July 24th and 25th of last year. Just one week [50:27] later, on August 1st, the FBI confirmed Maxwell had been transferred to a minimum security prison in [50:33] Texas. That's the one where a whistleblower told the House Judiciary Committee that Maxwell has [50:38] since been able to enjoy things like customized meals and time with puppies. Now, I should note [50:44] that the White House didn't respond to the substance of the article, but insisted that Trump has done [50:48] more for Epstein's victims than anybody before him, anyone before him. Yet we still don't have justice [50:54] for the survivors at all. And we may not even have all of the files. We don't. Now, I guess we might [50:59] now have an explanation for the puppies, though, perhaps. Joining me now is Congressman Robert [51:04] Garcia. He's the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. Okay. I just summarized part [51:11] of Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan's reporting that is out today, an excerpt of their book. What [51:15] would you make of it? I mean, honestly, it was it was a bombshell and it was just really [51:21] interesting to read. Look, a few things really stood out to me. One is it was the first time we [51:28] really got an idea that Vice President Vance has actually been involved in the strategy around [51:34] Epstein, providing ideas, giving directions, holding court in the situation room, which should [51:40] never be used for these types of activities or conversations. We've been saying from day one [51:45] that this is a White House cover-up. And now it's very clear that the Vice President is a large part [51:51] of that cover-up, that the White House Chief of Staff, Susan Wiles, is a part of that cover-up. And so [51:57] the amount of questions that we now have, and certainly I hope all Republicans on the Oversight [52:02] Committee can agree that we've got to talk to the Vice President, because here's oh, he's over here [52:06] giving some crazy ideas about how to essentially protect President Trump. And it's clear that all [52:13] of these senior admin officials, we're talking about the top of the Trump administration, they are now [52:18] meeting in the situation room. We're not sure how often or how many times. And they're talking about [52:22] how to protect Donald Trump from our Epstein investigation and to deny justice for these [52:28] survivors. And so I think that stood out to me, and I think in a way that was shocking. [52:33] And everything else that you mentioned, I mean, the suggestions, I mean, Tucker Carlson [52:37] interviewing Ghislaine Maxwell, I mean, give me a break. This also confirms that the whole transfer, [52:43] the whole idea about going to Ghislaine Maxwell was all about protecting Donald Trump. And so again, [52:49] this has exposed so much more, and we're just beginning to dig in to what really is driving [52:55] the administration and why they're protecting the president. I mean, I have so many questions [52:59] like you do here. I want to talk about Blanche for a second, because Blanche alludes to the potential [53:04] for a quid pro quo here, that Maxwell might ask for something, according to the reporting from this [53:09] meeting. And then the timeline, which I just described, is quite eye-popping. I mean, it was a week, [53:15] we all know that, between when she was interviewed and when she was transferred. What questions do [53:21] you have? You've long had them for Blanche. I should ask more, what accountability should [53:25] there be for Blanche? He's currently the nominee to be the attorney general. [53:30] I mean, this is really, this reporting has really opened up so much more information about [53:33] the transfer to Ghislaine Maxwell, who was involved, who the central players were, [53:37] why the transfer was actually presented. And look, it's clear that they've been talking about [53:42] this transfer. I mean, they talk about the pardon. The admin officials are there talking about [53:46] what the impact of a pardon could actually be. They're literally focused right now on protecting [53:52] the president and using Ghislaine Maxwell as a way of protecting the president. Todd Blanche is [53:57] clearly serving as a president's defense attorney, regardless of the job that he's in, [54:02] and he's about to be sent to the Senate for confirmation. So Todd Blanche has an enormous, [54:06] enormous amount to answer for. Pam Bondi, who just weeks ago said she had no idea why the transfer [54:12] happened, that she was not involved with the Epstein investigation. In this reporting, [54:16] it appears that she's actually involved in some of these conversations. She's actually on the phone [54:20] while others are in the situation room. And so I think this is beginning to unravel for the White [54:26] House. And I will add that this reporting obviously paints a clear picture of this cover-up, [54:31] but there's clearly so much more that we don't know. And I have to go back to the vice president. [54:35] For the first time, we now know that the vice president has been involved in this cover-up [54:41] and in trying to protect the president. So speaking with him, getting more information from Vance [54:47] in particular is going to be very important to our committee moving forward. How are you going to do [54:51] that? Well, look, I think one is we've been building and continue to build enormous amounts [54:57] of pressure for folks to come speak to us. We're going to request Tacoma and request to the vice [55:01] president to come in front of our committee. We also intend to win the majority and get subpoena power [55:06] and force people to come in front of our committee. Todd Blanche, for weeks and weeks, [55:11] James Comer said that he was not interested in bringing in Todd Blanche. We made that request [55:15] weeks ago. Just today, James Comer flip-flops and now says that, yes, we should hear from Todd [55:20] Blanche. So I'm glad now that Republicans choose to follow our lead. Todd Blanche is the first person [55:25] we should get in front of our committee. But now we need to also talk to Vice President Vance, [55:29] the chief of staff, Susie Wiles, and so many others in the FBI, including Kash Patel. And so [55:34] these are all folks that we now know, thanks to this reporting, have all been involved in this [55:39] strategy in trying to protect Donald Trump and involved in this White House cover-up. [55:44] Raises more questions than it answers, as always, but quite eye-popping reporting. [55:49] Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you, as always. [55:52] Thank you.