'Don’t Know If an Intern Wrote It': Rick Stengel on Trump’s Iran Speech

[0:00] President Trump began the week looking to reassure millions of Americans in a primetime address [0:05] that the war in Iran was under control and ramping down. Today, he ends the week with [0:10] surging energy costs and an escalating conflict in the region. U.S. officials have confirmed [0:16] that a search and rescue effort is underway to locate one of two crew members who are aboard [0:21] an F-15 fighter jet that was downed in Iran. The other crew member has been rescued. MSNOW [0:27] has confirmed that the jet was shot down by Iranian forces, which marks yet another stunning [0:33] escalation in this war. A channel affiliated with Iranian state television claimed that a U.S. [0:39] fighter pilot ejected from the aircraft over southwest Iran. The anchor for an affiliate [0:46] of state TV urged Iranians to take matters into their own hands and deliver any, quote, [0:51] enemy pilot to police for a, quote, precious prize. Iran's Speaker of Parliament, [0:57] America's preferred contact point for negotiations on a ceasefire, by the way, [1:02] openly ridiculed the United States over the downed jet and its, quote, no strategy war. [1:08] Back in Washington, a shakeup at the Pentagon preceded the news. Secretary of Defense Pete [1:12] Hegseth ousted the Army's most senior general. Two U.S. officials tell Axios the dismissal was, [1:18] quote, motivated by clashing personalities and not disagreements over where the Army is headed. [1:24] And moments ago, The New York Times citing two U.S. officials, [1:27] reported that another Air Force combat plane crashed near the Strait of Hormuz. [1:33] The lone pilot was safely rescued. MSNOW has not confirmed this news yet. [1:39] Joining us, former Undersecretary of State for Diplomacy for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs [1:45] and MSNOW political analyst Rick Stengel, staff writer for The Atlantic and MSNOW political [1:50] analyst Ashley Parker, retired four-star general and MSNOW military analyst General Barry McCaffrey, [1:57] and former U.S. Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs and MSNOW political analyst [1:58] and former U.S. Army officer, captain in the JAG Corps, and former assistant U.S. attorney for the [2:03] District of Connecticut, Margaret Donovan. It's great to have all of you. General McCaffrey, [2:08] I'm going to start with you. What is your take? What are you watching for with this story of the [2:13] downing of an F-15 fighter jet? What does it signify to you about where this war is headed? [2:21] Well, obviously, it underscores the fact there's no such thing as a safe combat operation in an F-15E Eagle. [2:29] You know, it's a magnificent aircraft, twin engine, 1,500 miles an hour, two pilots used in [2:37] ground and air-to-air action. But they got one. And the question may be, it was a man-pad, [2:44] hand-carried anti-aircraft missile, or possibly just a .50-caliber machine gun. [2:51] You know, the saying used to be in Vietnam, big sky, little bullet. But by the way, to underscore [2:58] the political change in the nature of air warfare, in Vietnam, we lost 3,700 fixed-wing aircraft [3:08] and over 4,000 helicopters, half in accidents, half of them in combat action. So the changed [3:15] reality, we've flown over 10,000 sorties in Iran, devastating air-sea campaign, and lost [3:22] one aircraft so far due to enemy action. We have absolutely devastated [3:30] the Iranian forces, General. But it also appears that it is not true, as the president has stated, [3:36] that we managed to wipe out their air defenses and leave them with few options. He described the [3:43] Americans as basically having all the cards at their disposal. Richard, when you look back at [3:47] what we heard from the president on Wednesday and then you see this news today, do you think that [3:53] the president, that he was blustering, just giving his personal perspective on [4:01] where things stood? Or do you think that it was a signal that the military does not properly or [4:07] fully understand Iranian capabilities at this stage in the war? [4:10] Antonio, it's a good question. And I think we can all stipulate that Donald Trump doesn't always [4:16] tell the truth. I think he—I don't know if an intern wrote that speech and pieced it together [4:23] from his Truth Social posts, but there's so much in that speech that was actually false. And his [4:32] exaggeration, I mean, General McCaffrey could agree, it's not the greatest military victory in [4:38] the history of military victories. But the problem now is, he basically said that Iran was defenseless, [4:45] that it had no anti-aircraft weapons, no ballistic missiles. And apparently, they shot a jet down [4:52] today. I pray that our aviator is rescued. But what this does is gives them a very clear [4:59] propaganda victory. And what I'm sure people in the world are going to say is, you know, [5:02] and the White House are worrying about, or people who remember it, is the parading of Iranian, [5:08] American hostages in the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979. I can remember, you know, those early images [5:16] of seeing blindfolded American diplomats. I mean, this is what the great fear must be now, which is [5:24] among the many, many reasons that they must be exercising as much energy to rescue that second [5:32] planet. Margaret, how do you read this moment? And I also want to get your sense of the broader [5:40] escalatory actions, your analysis of them, as over 100 international law experts have been warning [5:47] that U.S. strikes on Iran's infrastructure may well be war crimes. The president bragged last [5:53] night about the strikes on a bridge. And at least according to Iranian officials, at least maybe [6:00] eight people may be dead as a result of just that alone. [6:03] How do you read this moment? [6:05] So, two things. One is that a pilot that has been captured after a downed aircraft, [6:12] that is sort of your classic scenario of a prisoner of war situation. And this is precisely [6:19] why it is important that the United States adheres to and publicly states that it will [6:25] adhere to the rules of engagement. Just a few weeks ago, you had Secretary Hegseth saying that [6:30] we were going to take no quarters of the enemy. The enemy was going to be given [6:35] orders, and there would be no forgiveness. We're not following the stupid rules of engagement. [6:39] Well, part of the reason why the United States follows the rules of engagement is because it's [6:44] intrinsically the right and lawful thing to do. But, also, it creates an incentive for the enemy [6:49] to treat prisoners of war with the same respect that is required under Geneva. [6:55] And so I hope, I think we're all praying that, if this pilot is found by the Iranians, [7:00] he or she is treated with dignity and respect. But it certainly does not help the situation [7:05] when you have a secretary of defense announcing on national TV that he doesn't care about the [7:09] rules of engagement, he doesn't care about Geneva, he doesn't care about the law of armed conflict. [7:14] So, I think that's my first problem. To your second point, the threats on civilian [7:17] infrastructure, it is not uncommon in combat to target civilian infrastructure. In general, [7:24] it will be considered protected, to have protected status. But, in certain instances, [7:28] it can lose that status if it is being used for a military objective. And my big issue with the [7:35] targets against civilian infrastructure and the threats of targeting civilian infrastructure is [7:38] that it is unclear whether or not it is actually linked to a military advantage or whether it's [7:43] being used as a negotiating tactic, using civilians, basically, as leverage, which would, [7:48] of course, be unlawful and improper. So, I think there's a host of issues. But the United States [7:53] needs to get back to being the standard-bearer for the rules of engagement and the law of armed [7:58] conflict. And this downed aircraft is a perfect example of how and when we can do that. [8:02] LISA DESJARDINS Ashley, to your knowledge, [8:04] everything that [8:05] Margaret just described there, is it leading the White House, the Pentagon, [8:11] to make some different decisions to change the calculus around this war? [8:16] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH Well, we haven't really heard much from the White House today [8:20] about this latest development, other than Caroline Leavitt has said the president is being briefed. [8:26] But I will say that it, of course, politically, is a problem for this president in the sense that, [8:35] in general, [8:35] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:36] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:36] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:36] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:36] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:36] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:36] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:36] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:37] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:37] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:37] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:37] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:37] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:37] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:37] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:38] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:38] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:38] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:38] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:38] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:38] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:38] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:38] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:38] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:38] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:39] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:39] ASSISTANT SECRETARY LYNCH [8:39] of force. That's why he liked what happened in Venezuela. It was quick. It was militarily [8:47] flawless. You know, he can sort of view it like the scene, the climax of a good military action [8:57] thriller. And you saw him in that speech he gave earlier this week trying to do what he is often, [9:04] frankly, so able to do in the rest of his life, will a reality into existence. [9:11] But you cannot do that in a war. He has not been able to do that with Iran. And the shooting down [9:18] of this aircraft and the pilot, who is still missing, just underscores that what President [9:24] Trump and Defense Secretary Pete Hagseth are saying about how the war is going, how degraded [9:29] Iran's capabilities are, is simply not as accurate as they would like the [9:34] public to believe. General, do you think that the shooting down of this jet is going to increase [9:41] the likelihood it could possibly inspire the president to move forward, to put boots on the [9:47] ground, as we know from the reporting, has been on the table? Do you think that this makes that [9:52] scenario more likely, General? No, probably not. But I think Trump right now, look, the big problem [9:58] is he's trapped. It's been a devastating and effective air-sea campaign. Much of it's running [10:05] out of energy right now and targets. But he's stuck. He wants to leave, leaving the Strait of [10:13] Hormuz blocked. Our allies at risk for oil security. He's not going to get the nuclear program [10:20] inspectors on the ground, which he needs. He didn't get regime change. So, so far, he's in a [10:26] strategic loss situation. [10:28] And he does know how to break out of it. I think at some point, the Iranians aren't bluffing, and I [10:35] think Trump is. Because he puts combat operations into Iran, tries to seize the port of, you know, [10:44] the ports along the entrance of the Gulf, tries to go in and get HEU fissile material on the ground [10:50] with a raid, probably 5,000 troops and days on the ground with engineers. If he goes after [10:58] cars, he's going to be in a situation where he's going to be in a situation where he's going to [10:58] get a nuclear program. He's going to be in a situation where he's going to be in a situation where [10:58] they're not ready. [10:59] When the [11:22] sale is [11:27] So I wouldn't be surprised if the firing of this marvelous, superb officer general Randy George was or [11:28] related to advice he's getting. Watch out, you're on the verge of a military disaster. [11:28] Speaking of that firing, Margaret. It doesn't seem like a great moment for secretary Hegseth to be purging military leaders. [11:28] We also have drawing some [11:29] learn from NBC News reporting, that his efforts to block otherwise highly qualified individuals, [11:37] potentially the allegation being that his main issue with them is their identity, [11:41] Black service members, women in leadership in the military from key promotions and roles. [11:47] What does that kind of action in the middle of a war do to our readiness and morale? [11:55] Yeah, I mean, I have heard so many times that Pete Hegseth is allowed to be in charge of culture [11:59] wars, but not real wars, because he doesn't actually have any military leadership or [12:03] capability. I think somebody like General George has probably forgotten more military strategy than [12:08] Pete Hegseth ever remembered. And so this is a good example of where whatever type of culture [12:14] war Pete Hegseth is waging is having a real effect on the military's readiness and capability. [12:21] And I think it's probably more than coincidence that you're seeing the same types of firings [12:24] across the board. So I think that has a serious effect on morale, [12:29] which is sort of the main issue. [12:29] It's sort of an intangible, immeasurable facet of these. But it's a perfect example of just his [12:36] incompetence getting in the way of people who could actually be helping him run the military [12:40] in a very serious moment.