Bill Ackman's Takes on Mamdani, Trump and Investing in the AI Era — Titans and Disruptors

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: I figured if I want to raise $10 million, why not go to the richest people in the world and ask them for a really small amount of money. [00:00:06] Allison Chantel: When you think of Bill Ackman, you think of someone who is one of the most influential investors of all time. But a decade ago, Bill's hedge fund Pershing Square looked like it might be on the brink of collapse. Ackman faced almost $4 billion in losses from one investment and everything nearly spun out of control. [00:00:23] Speaker 1: This was a failure of due diligence on my part. [00:00:27] Allison Chantel: Bill managed a historic turnaround of his hedge fund, and today he's a leading voice on Wall Street who is worth over $8 billion. [00:00:35] Speaker 1: You don't want to be a lemming in markets. You want to be the person looking in the other direction. [00:00:38] Allison Chantel: He's also amassed a huge online presence with 2.7 million followers, where he candidly shares his sometimes very controversial beliefs on business, politics and culture. [00:00:49] Speaker 1: Some people like, well, I'm not going to open a Trump account for my child because I don't like that it's called Trump account. OK, that's stupid. [00:00:55] Allison Chantel: I'm Allison Chantel, and this is Fortune 500: Titans and Disruptors of Industry. We'll be back after a short message from our sponsors. [00:01:09] Speaker 3: Fortune spoke with Deloitte U.S. CEO Jason Gersadis on how organizations are using AI to move beyond automation toward human-led value creation. [00:01:18] Jason Gersadis: Leading organizations are using AI in a multitude of ways, but the focus is also beyond just deploying AI for the purposes of automation. The real challenge, and I think the opportunity for leading organizations is how do you create altogether different outcomes, different levels of value for customers, for employees, for other stakeholders, in order to increase the speed of decision-making, the level of differentiation in the market, beyond just automation. So it's really opening up a new areas of value creation, new opportunities for employee experience and empowerment and really cultural transformation for organizations led through the power of AI. Many CEOs are focused on deploying AI as they should, and I think all leading organizations and CEOs are on an AI journey, but what may be missing is understanding the real power of the human side of AI capabilities and organizational change. And so leading organizations are thinking about human-led, AI-powered solutions and moving enterprise and the entirety of their workforce to be equipped and enabled to leverage AI in all of its form and fashions. Certainly success is defined, at least today, in large part by automation and productivity, but really the real question around defining success for CEOs around the use of AI is, is it changing the way your business competes? Is the basis of value creation, is the basis of value creation, of customer success, and the overall value that the organization is creating being enabled or differentiated or changed by the use of AI? That's the real question. [00:02:54] Speaker 3: Fortune 500, titans and disruptors of industry episodes are produced by Fortune's editorial team. The views and opinions expressed by podcast speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Deloitte or its personnel, nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the episodes. [00:03:17] Allison Chantel: Bill Ackman: Bill Ackman, it's a pleasure to be here with you today. Thank you for spending the time. [00:03:22] Speaker 1: Bill Ackman: Of course. [00:03:22] Allison Chantel: Bill Ackman: The first thing I'd love to hear from you is your market update. What are you looking at? What's interesting? What's going on? And some of the risks you're seeing? [00:03:30] Speaker 1: Bill Ackman: So I guess markets are always interesting, but it seems like a particularly interesting time in history, midst of a couple of important wars. Bill Ackman: At the same time, major technological change. AI, I think, is the story of the moment of really the next many, many years. And thinking about implications for business, for the economy, for companies, for employees, I think the AI is really the story. Bill Ackman: In terms of markets, it's a time where people are -- a fair amount of speculation. So on the, you might say, negative side, we think about the growth of one-day options, these very kind of levered ETFs, all the money being spent, if you will, betting on sports. When speculation increases, that's a time, I would say, to be a little more cautious. Bill Ackman: At the same time, if you look at market indices, people point out that multiples are higher, but the S&P is a market cap weighted index, which means the biggest companies have the biggest impact on valuations. And the biggest companies are really amazing businesses that have much higher growth trajectories than businesses of even a decade ago, 20, 30 years ago. So it's a different market today than one that you would look at, sort of average multiples. Bill Ackman: And we're finding cheap stocks. Bill Ackman: In fact, some of the best we call durable growth companies in the world are available at prices that we find compelling, because they're not at the cutting edge, and they're not dead center on the demand for chips, or memory, or even land and real estate for data centers. [00:05:06] Allison Chantel: Bill Ackman: Yeah, as you said, the new, new thing seems to be energy, of course, fueling this whole economy, but the chips and semiconductors and people are pouring into there. Some of the recent big tech stocks you just bought, Uber, Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, I'm curious for your strategy there. Bill Ackman: And I have to admit, as someone who looks at the AI landscape a lot, that's not necessarily all those would be where I would put my AI bets, because I think you sold some Alphabet, which to me seems like that's a pretty good company to own. [00:05:34] Speaker 1: Bill Ackman: I'm less interested in kind of the frontier. Bill Ackman: I'm interested intellectually in frontier kind of AI companies and models, but we try to find businesses that we can predict with a very high degree of confidence what they're going to look like over time. That becomes increasingly difficult when there's major technological change, but certain businesses have kind of a market position where we think it's very difficult to be disrupted. Bill Ackman: So Uber is kind of an amazing business, if you look at the cash flow metrics, the growth, the earnings trajectory, the revenue growth, I would say even the mind share, right? Uber, when a company becomes a verb, that's a pretty good sign that it's in a very kind of dominant position, but Uber stock is extremely cheap for a business of this quality. Why? Because people are nervous that Tesla, the Tesla taxi, if you will, is going to completely take over sort of the autonomous vehicle and the entire market for mobility. Bill Ackman: Uber's, you know, both a mobility company and also a food delivery business, they're just closing a transaction now that's going to make them even a more dominant company in that kind of space. Bill Ackman: But if you just focus on, you know, our view is that you're going to want to go to your Uber app to decide how you get from one place to another, as opposed to your Tesla app or your Waymo app or your other self-driving company app, you know, to find a ride. Bill Ackman: You want to ride in the shortest period of time at the lowest cost, and you want a brand that you can trust. Bill Ackman: You don't want to put all your information in a bunch of different sites and scroll through them. Bill Ackman: So we think their position is very, very strong. Bill Ackman: We want to own a business at a price that, you know, meaningfully discounts the future. Bill Ackman: Microsoft, Meta, Amazon, Ubers of the world are cheap today because the eyes are drawn to Micron or, you know, some of the semiconductor companies. [00:07:13] Allison Chantel: Bill Ackman: So in the Uber situation, it almost sounds like you're focused on it as a platform as opposed to the autonomy or autonomous vehicles. [00:07:20] Speaker 1: Bill Ackman: And I think they're a big beneficiary of, you know, autonomous driving is going to reduce the cost of getting from one place to another. It's going to reduce insurance costs. Bill Ackman: And that will, of course, drive more demand as the price comes down. Bill Ackman: I don't know if the next generation, I think learning how to drive will be something for people who are interested in cars. Bill Ackman: A hobby. Bill Ackman: It's a hobby. Bill Ackman: Yeah, it will be a hobby. [00:07:38] Allison Chantel: Bill Ackman: A hobby. Bill Ackman: A hobby. Bill Ackman: So there's all these trillion dollar IPOs. Well, I don't want to say all. There's three, really. It's SpaceX, we expect Anthropic on the horizon, expect OpenAI on the horizon. How should investors be thinking about that? And then I also want your bigger take on what's going on in the private markets because valuations just seem like insane by the time companies are going public. [00:07:56] Speaker 1: Bill Ackman: So the way investors should think about any IPO is, you know, is the price I'm paying makes sense in light of the future of the business. Very often around IPOs, there can be a lot of hype and excitement. And that's something you have to be cautious about. But IPO can be in a way to become an investor in a company early on its trajectory. That's really traditionally what an IPO has been. Now, once you get to a trillion dollars, you know, the question is, are you early on in the trajectory of the business? SpaceX is an amazing company. I'm a big Elon fan. I'm a conflicted a bit and then I indirectly became a SpaceX shareholder. I was an investor in X, I was an investor in XAI, I was a small investor in SpaceX, so now I have actually a decent sized personal investment in the company. I don't invest personally in public companies, but I'm stuck investing in the, if you will, in the private ones, which is, you know, kind of fun and important to see what's coming. I think, you know, sort of the unfortunate thing is, you know, when Amazon went public, you know, it was a relatively tiny market cap. And so the public retail shareholders have the opportunity, those who invested over time, to make a fortune with Amazon. I think it's harder to make a fortune when you start at a trillion and a half, uh, kind of market cap. Now, all that being said, SpaceX is going after markets that are massive, right? Space as a market, they're an incredibly dominant, uh, you know, advantage, uh, and really uniquely more so than almost any company in terms of their position and, and bringing large amounts of stuff to space at very low cost. So that positions them extremely well. Starlink is an amazing product. I use it. I actually have a little Starlink kit. I sometimes I take when I go fishing. I mean, it changes flying even. [00:09:29] Allison Chantel: Like United's Wi-Fi has never been better. It's amazing. [00:09:32] Speaker 1: You can actually be productive on an airplane flight, which is, you know, uh, and they're in an incredibly, again, dominant position there. AI, I would say they're a little farther behind, but from an AI infrastructure perspective, there's no one better at building infrastructure more quickly at lower cost than Elon Musk. So amazing business. And then you just get to price and there you have to, you know, it's a little more complicated. It's a business, which is, I would say it's, you have to make assumptions about the future and, and, uh, I wouldn't bet against, uh, Elon. What's fascinating about Anthropik is I've never seen a business grow this quickly ever. So the revenue chart is like. And apparently they are EBITDA positive if that's true, which I think is, you know, bodes very well for this company if they're growing that quickly and they can do so profitably. My question about open AI, and again, this is, I don't have any inside information on open AI. It's just what I read in a fortune magazine or on the, on the web, the business model has them losing a lot of money and consuming a lot of capital, uh, you know, many tens of billions, perhaps hundreds of billions over the next several years. And I think query how long markets will be willing to fund that. I think the single biggest risk, I would say both the private markets and public markets is, uh, I don't love businesses where you put capital in and you're going to have to keep funding, putting more and more money over in over time. I like businesses where yes, it can require a large amount of capital upfront, but there's a very clear, I mean, look at Uber, you know, Uber burned enormous amounts of cash, uh, and credit to Dara, uh, for what he's achieved, uh, since he took over running, running the business and now pumps out enormous amounts of capital. So yes, you can invest in a company losing a lot of money, burning a lot of cash, as long as there's a point where they, you know, the lines cross and they start becoming materially cashflow positive. You know, at various times in history, the market's willing to let companies lose money for extended periods of time. And, you know, sometimes they wake up and decide they're not willing to do that. And I think that's the risk. And when the numbers become extremely large, I think, you know, that's the question I have about an open AI, but again, I don't have the detail to know. [00:11:32] Allison Chantel: In addition to building an influential investment empire, Bill has cultivated an audience of about 2.7 million followers on X, giving him a platform that rivals many traditional media outlets. And he is not afraid to speak his mind. In recent years, Bill has weighed in on everything from investing to politics to social issues, many times taking stands that ignite public debate. And it's made him an influential and sometimes polarizing figure in American business. You obviously are not just a big investor. You also have a huge following and you don't use it to just talk about business. You know, we mentioned sometimes it's polarizing topics. I actually listened to your Lex Friedman conversation twice. You said, you know, I'm attacking. This is a few years ago. I'm attacking the president, DEI and elite universities. I'm going to make some enemies. As you think about the impact that your words have and that your followership has, how do you decide where to weigh in, especially knowing that you have an opinion, but a lot of other people totally disagree and how that will impact the world. [00:12:38] Speaker 1: So it's not strategic. I just get either interested in an issue or I come to some insight and like, why isn't everyone talking about this? And often there are reasons for that. I mean, each of those issues there, there's a lot of pushback and I feel like I'm in a bit of a unique position where I can say exactly, you know, I'm not going to lose my job. Uh, and I can say exactly what I think. I think, I mean, Elon Musk will be remembered for many things, but actually his purchase of X and making it an open platform. Some people hate it for its, for its openness in some sense, but it is a place where you can share views in a very, um, broad way. And yes, and, and here the other side of the argument, I read the comments, right? [00:13:19] Allison Chantel: The good, the bad, the ugly. [00:13:21] Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you know, the ad hominem ones I, I don't spend much time on, but if I, if someone thinks I'm wrong, I, that's how I learn. Getting back to your point about boards, I always wanted people on my board who would tell me I'm wrong. And the same thing's true at Pershing. We want, we have this environment of extreme candor and you want people who are prepared to challenge the accepted, uh, kind of norms or, you know, the, you know, go back to the emperor's new clothes. You want the kids saying, you know, the, uh, the emperor has no clothes. Um, and on some of these issues, what might've been initially a well-intended notion, perhaps DEI being one of them, became something that actually, in my view, increased racism and, and led to discrimination and, you know, things that were not, uh, either legal or in the best interests of, of, of the country. And no one was talking about it. [00:14:08] Allison Chantel: But I assume there's people close to you that feel both ways. Some send you thank you notes and some are like, Bill, how absolutely could you? [00:14:15] Speaker 1: You know, what's interesting is when I've walked down the street, including today, every day someone will thank me. It's rare that I get the opposite. But yes, some people don't like me and many people disagree, but that's okay. You know, I'm focused on what I believe to be the truth. And I'm, I'm very happy to hear your argument if you think I'm wrong. And I'll, I'll course correct if you convince me I'm wrong. [00:14:38] Allison Chantel: One of the areas where you made a call loudly was on President Trump. It was shortly after his assassination attempt, after Elon Musk endorsed him. You said, you know, look, I've looked at empirical data and he's pro-business and I'm going for Trump. It doesn't mean you agreed with everything he's ever historically done and continues to do. But what is your relationship like with the president these days? Um, and how would you rate his presidency so far? [00:15:02] Speaker 1: I have an excellent relationship with the president. And I think part of that is I always tell him the truth. I think when you're in his role, you can find yourself surrounded by people who tell you what you want to hear. And I think he respects people who tell him the truth. And I think he's done a lot right. Uh, but like all of us, I'm, you know, he's made some mistakes. Um, but I think, I think he's generally done a very good job. Uh, and even on things where, you know, there's nothing he can do where he's not going to get enormous criticism from half the country. You know, we, we, I think the execution of the Iran war has been, I mean, if you look at each of these, uh, military, military operations, they've been the best executed military military operations I've seen maybe under any presidency. One of the biggest challenges we have in our country is almost half the country is not participating in, in the, you know, the growth and values created by capitalism. I.e. stock market, you know, they don't have 401k plans. They don't have, uh, they don't have stocks in the market. And you've seen a move towards, you know, success of socialism and socialist, uh, you know, publicly pronounced socialist candidates winning, uh, the mayoralty in, in New York City. And I think part of that is due to the fact that people are being left behind, you know, wages cannot compound as quickly as stocks. Uh, so everyone needs to participate in the stock market in order to, you know, believe in capitalism. And the point of, you know, a couple of initiatives, uh, and I, I don't, I don't want to take credit for them because I don't know what the initial genesis was. But a number of years ago, I came up with this idea that every baby in America should have a, in that, $6,500 in their account, which compounds a million dollars. A birthright account. [00:16:38] Allison Chantel: In 2020, I believe you wrote an op-ed in the New York Times. [00:16:41] Speaker 1: Yes. And the president has done basically that, uh, these Trump baby accounts. And, uh, now there's the Trump savings plan. [00:16:48] Allison Chantel: Did you talk to him about that? [00:16:50] Speaker 1: I didn't talk to him about the baby accounts. Okay. Um, but I did give him the pitch on what is now the Trump savings plan, which I think is gonna be very important. It's basically a 401k plan for every American. So you're an Uber driver, restaurant worker, your company doesn't have some kind of stock, you know, 401k or other tax exempt plan. Well, now you can set one up very easily. And, uh, the government's gonna provide a match. Australia, actually even Mexico has a pension system now where you're required to put aside, you know, meaningful percentage of your earnings in an account that compounds and saves your retirement. And now the average Australian has multiples of the savings of the average American, uh, because of this power of compounding. Compounding solves many, many problems. Uh, and we gotta get every American to, from the time they're born, which, you know, the Trump, uh, by the way, there's some people like, well, I'm not gonna open a Trump account for my child because I don't like that it's called Trump account. Okay. That's stupid. Okay. Um, and so I think he's done some very, very good things. [00:17:49] Allison Chantel: What if they don't have the disposable income to do it either? [00:17:52] Speaker 1: You put aside less money and you certainly take them, you take, uh, there's a thousand dollar, uh, match. Um, but you know, I, I just think you have to start putting money away for your retirement. If, if they can do it in Mexico where wages are vastly lower and there actually is a requirement to put aside a big, even bigger percentage, we can do it. We can do it here. [00:18:12] Allison Chantel: One of the quotes you said to us in a recent story we did was that I think significance in life is ultimately measured by how positively affect the largest number of people. And I think you can do that just by being a capitalist. I agree with you. I mean, unfortunately we think capitalism when done well can solve a lot of problems, but then you look at the wealth divide and it's clear why people are mad. I mean, the affordability is, and it's awful and the wealth divide has never been greater. So why does it often not feel good to working Americans when we're in a capitalistic society? [00:18:42] Speaker 1: Let's use New York city as a microcosm. Let's talk about affordability. We start with rent or cost of housing. Why is the cost of housing so high in New York city? Because unfortunately left wing mayors have made it very difficult for developers to build in New York city. And Mondami, when he's freezes rents, he's just going to make the problem worse. There are buildings in New York city, many, many buildings in New York city where half the tenants plus or minus are rent stabilized apartments. And so their rent is frozen and the other half are free market. And so what does the landlord do in order to make, generate enough cash flow to cover his interest expense? Well, he's going to raise rents, uh, in the, the part of the, cause he can't raise them on half the apartments. Um, you know, so there's, there's bad policy that's led to the afford, a big part of the affordability problem. Why is energy costs so high in New York state? It's because we've shut down nuclear power and we've, um, you know, it takes 15 years to get, uh, uh, you know, power line approved, a pipeline, you know, uh, you know, we shut down, uh, fracking in New York state. And the result is that we're importing, you know, natural gas from Pennsylvania, right? Just bad policy. And, um, so, you know, the, we can fix a lot of these problems with much better policy. You look at Florida, Florida is an incredibly well managed state. They're talking about eliminating. I think they voted recently eliminate real estate taxes, right? How are they able to do that? Just good policy. Um, Austin, Texas, um, you know, rents have come way down. Why? Because they made it really easy to build. You make it really hard to build, uh, in a city where people want to live or they're moving to. Um, and then you don't allow landlords to recover the costs to renovate their units. They're going to pull them off the market. So what's happened in New York, we had like some 60,000 units that are off the market because the cost to renovate them cannot be recovered under the rent regulations. You want the Ken Griffins of the world to locate Citadel here. You want him to spend $250 million in an apartment. Why? Because that $250 million purchase made that building economically viable. Well, that the construction, that building created how many jobs, how many rich people have moved into that building who are going to pay taxes. The system, a system can work very well. You want people at the very top who are, you know, a very small percentage of the population is paying a big, you know, something like the top 10% generate 70% of the revenues. That doesn't sound like a particularly unfair, you know, you want to have the Elon Musk of the world, but you don't want to discourage Elon Musk from locating his business here. I mean, look at what's happening in California right now. The United States made it such that a 5% wealth tax in California, which they say is one time. First of all, it's never one time. Right? Income taxes were de minimis and they only applied to a small percentage of the population. [00:21:29] Allison Chantel: Well, they say it'll be one time, but you're worried it'll come back for more. It's a certainty. [00:21:32] Speaker 1: It's a certainty. So we have two big problems. We have enormous waste and fraud in government. And we have bad policy, bad economic policy, bad tax policy. And by the way, there are many things that are unfair about what tax policy that can be fixed. But, you know, the answer is socialism. Socialism is a disaster. Okay? Watch if Mondami is successful in implementing these plans, watch what happens in New York City. I agree. [00:22:05] Allison Chantel: There's a lot of policy that can be done to fix unaffordability. I think as both a CEO and a billionaire, is there more that people like you running big companies or big operations can be doing to help their employees make it more palatable or more tolerable? [00:22:23] Speaker 1: You don't have to worry about any of the approaching square employees because we run this super profitable business and we've got a very small team. But we have impact well beyond just the 40 people who work here because we're important shareholders of large numbers of companies. And my point about capitalism is, you know, I've spent a fair amount of time on philanthropy and it's vastly less efficient at solving problems than capitalism. Right? You're going to create a lot more jobs with capitalism than you are with philanthropy. And when, you know, businesses where you're effectively using other people's money that don't have best in class governance and, you know, oversight can end badly. And that's a description, unfortunately, of many nonprofits. Many nonprofits do not have the disciplines that come with running a for-profit enterprise. And as a result, they're less motivated. It's harder for them to hire the best people. There are no equity incentives. There's no market pressures. There's no M&A activity. So you've got to be careful with philanthropy. You can waste a lot of money. And these organizations can be taken over and become political vehicles as opposed to, you know, they can go off mission from what they were originally set up to do. [00:23:32] Allison Chantel: And you say this as someone who's had a philanthropy for 20 years and you've given a billion in grants and investments. Jeff Bezos recently gave an interview saying, you know, if I do my job well, I can create tremendous economic lift and value for people with just Amazon. Not saying he wouldn't do philanthropy as well. I'm curious as you look at, you know, your legacy and what you want to build. I know you've said you plan to give away a significant portion of your wealth. But how do you think about deploying it in the most impactful way, given that there are shortcomings with clearly with capitalism right now and with philanthropy right now? [00:24:03] Speaker 1: Our recent big initiative today being an important day is we're launching this kind of I would call it brain research rehabilitation institute. It's funded initially with nonprofit capital, but it's going to have a very it's going to have for profit elements to it. It's going to focus on the patient and solving brain related longevity related issues. But that will lead to devices and molecules and techniques that are become the basis for launching businesses that will transfer that technology and deliver it to patients over time. And the goal is to build, you know, put a bunch of philanthropic capital to launch, build this into something that becomes sustainable using, you know, sort of for profit capitalistic principles. You know, I don't want people to have to sacrifice what, you know, make an economic sacrifice to come work here at this what we're calling the AOI. So one of the things we're going to do is we're going to share the equity value that's created from the businesses that come out of the institute with the with the people who work there in a very broad way in the same way that we've done at Pershing Square. So I'd hopefully be the best of a nonprofit model. You know, there's certain people, you know, certain things you can achieve if you're a nonprofit that if you were a for profit, you might not be able to hire certain people or you may not be able to interact with certain institutions that will only interact with a nonprofit as opposed to they might. If it's a for profit, it might make it more challenging. So I've learned over 20 years of philanthropy, what works, what doesn't work. I'm sure there's still more lessons to learn. But the goal is to focus on things where there's a gap in the capital markets, where there isn't yet a for profit solution to a problem. And there has not yet been invested effectively enough in helping people deal with traumatic brain, you know, issues or strokes or and I've been very close to that issue in the last, you know, almost six months. And so this is something, you know, historically, we've been, you know, Buffett says diversification is protection against ignorance. And so if you look at the Pershing Square Foundation, we were extremely diversified, certainly in the earlier years, we started focusing more on scientific research in the last period. And part of that is, you know, that's an area where we've seen a gap in the capital markets. While there is venture money available for startups in healthcare, there's, you know, a lot of the basic science research is not research. It's too far away from a from revenue or a company for it to be funded by a venture capitalist. So it's either has to be government funding or philanthropy. So that's an area we focused on. But in doing that, we've learned a fair bit. We've built a couple of scientific advisory boards. We learned some of the good and bad. And we're going to apply all those learnings to this to this institute. I mentioned today because we actually today just closed on the building that will be the initial building for the institute. Congratulations. [00:26:59] Allison Chantel: Thanks. Bill's career has been defined by conviction. Raised in an accomplished entrepreneurial family, he learned from a young age the value of earning his own way. That drive carried him from Harvard to launching his first hedge fund, partially funded by cold calling some of America's wealthiest investors. It all culminated in Pershing Square, an influential investment firm with major stakes in Amazon, Uber and Microsoft, where Bill and his small team pick only a dozen or so companies to back. He's a Warren Buffett devotee and has bold ambitions to eventually best Buffett's 60 year investment career. Before we get into all of what Pershing Square is, I want to have people understand how you became the person that you are a little bit and kind of going back into the archives of Bill Ackman. So even going back to your upbringing, there was a couple of things in my research that stood out about you. One is that like your dad instilled in you, you are not going to get a penny in my inheritance, so you better earn your own money. That was one thing that stood out. And you set these ambitious milestones for yourself financially that you actually wound up hitting, partly as a result, I assume. And now there was a yearbook quote, I think, one where you were called very verbose. And two, your friend said, "Closed mouth gathers no foot." Gathers no foot, yes. And so clearly never shy and never afraid to speak your mind. That's true. And so I'm curious, when you think about your foundational upbringing, what created the Bill Ackman today? [00:28:26] Speaker 1: I think my parents obviously played a very important role. And I don't want to underestimate, under mention mom. My mom was an activist. I grew up in Chappaqua, New York. We had diesel locomotives from 1950s that took dad back and forth to work. We weren't allowed to start dinner until dad got home. And very often he'd get home after eight o'clock because the train was delayed. And mom ended up joining this grassroots organization called the Upper Harlem Line Commuter Council. She became head of it. She ran a petition drive. And they redid the railroads to our hometown, which massively accelerated the time dad got home for dinner. So I certainly saw activism at work. And my mother, I counted the signatures on the petition drive. I was supposed to go through all the signatures and count them. And mom, you know, delivered them to Albany. So I would say that was a significant moment. And then dad was in the real estate mortgage brokerage business. And, you know, kind of an eat what you kill business. And, you know, I watched him have some very successful years. And there were periods of time he went, you know, a couple of years without making money, which I was not really closely aware of. But dad was very big on, you know, Bill, you need to stand on your own two feet. And, you know, I never got an allowance. And if you want to make money, you know, start a business. I had a little car waxing business. I had various kinds of businesses. And I did, you know, various projects around the house. Or the lawn care, tree care, ditch digging, things like this, which was great. [00:29:50] Allison Chantel: And so then when you were a teenager, you said to your dad, I'm going to be a millionaire by 30, have a hundred million dollars by 40, and a billion dollars by 50. Yeah. And you hit them, I think, ahead of schedule. Yes. I'm curious, what are the things that going back, you look through those decades that you think most moved the needle for you to hit those? [00:30:09] Speaker 1: So I was a super motivated kid. And my sister went to Harvard a year before me. So at that point, I thought that was the best school. So, you know, I was good academically and motivated and pretty involved in whether it was sports or clubs or things. And I guess I wrote a decent essay. So I think getting into a good school was obviously helpful. One of my early significant experiences is at Harvard. I took a job at Harvard student agencies selling advertising for something called Let's Go Travel Guides, which I don't even know if they exist online. But this was this, you know, a series of books that where Harvard students would write reviews about hotels and stuff around the world. And we sold advertising. And it was a commission-based business. And I guess I was a good salesman. And I made $14,000, which seemed like a huge amount of money. Wow, yeah. And then I went to work for my father, actually, in his business, which I was not particularly excited about. I actually liked real estate a lot, but I didn't like the service side of the business. I liked, you know, the people on the other side of the phone I thought were having more fun, the entrepreneurs, the developers. And I said, you know, I want to be an investor. And my dad introduced me to a guy named Leonard Marks, recommended, you know, the intelligent investor by Ben Graham. That led me to Warren Buffett. I decided to go to business school to learn how to be an investor. And I just sort of followed down that path. And I was fortunate in finding something that I was excited about. And then I did a lot of reading. You can learn a lot by reading. And then I started investing. And the first stock I bought went up. You know, if it had gone down, maybe I'd do something else. [00:31:42] Allison Chantel: Well, when you started Gotham, I understand you looked at the Forbes 400 list. Yes. And that's a list of American billionaires. [00:31:50] Speaker 1: Wasn't necessarily billionaires back then. The richest people in America. You had to have like a $400 million net worth to be on the list or so back then. [00:31:57] Allison Chantel: And you cold called them? Yes. And some of them actually invested? Yes. [00:32:01] Speaker 1: So how did you- Four of the six were on the list. Basically, I figured if I want to raise $10 million, which was the goal, but the minimum was $3 million, why not go to the richest people in the world and ask them for a really small amount of money? [00:32:14] Allison Chantel: No, you have no tracker. That was my theory. You don't know them at all. [00:32:17] Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. It's a crazy idea, but no one else probably had done it before. And basically, really successful people, particularly entrepreneurially successful people, admire entrepreneurship in young people. I think it's just natural. It makes sense. And so, knocked on a lot of doors, basically, and got a huge amount of rejection. 90 plus percent of the people turned us down. Probably 95 or 96 percent of the people turned us down. But, you know, five or six people gave us the $3 million to start the business. [00:32:46] Allison Chantel: And then from there, you grew a lot of assets under management. There was a bid for Rockefeller that I think you ultimately didn't get, but really put you on the map in a big way. And then ultimately, it had to be unwound. What was the lesson you took from the 10 years at Gotham when you were launching Pershing Square? [00:33:03] Speaker 1: We started Gotham Partners with no experience, David Berkowitz and I, and we got a lot of experience. And we did a lot of things well, and we did some things that were a mistake. One of the mistakes we made is five years in, we decided to expand the mandate to include private assets. And mixing private assets in a hedge fund where people can redeem capital, even with side pockets and these other mechanisms, creates a lot of complexity. So one of the things I did at Pershing Square was Pershing Square doesn't make private investments. And, you know, I had the benefit of doing a 2.0. I think a big part of the reason why Pershing Square has been successful is the case I made when I was raising money, when I launched Pershing Square, I said I'm the most experienced hedge fund manager in America at 37, because I've already started a hedge fund, made a whole, had a lot of success, had some mistakes. And so that was my part of my pitch. I think that if I look over the course of my life, I think one thing I've been good at is learning from mistakes that I've made over time. And a lot of people just don't want to talk about mistakes. They want to shove them to the side. And as we say at Pershing Square, we study them and we treasure them because, you know, there's not a business person that's had a not made meaningful mistakes over time or not had very significant setbacks. And it's how you deal with the setbacks, how you learn from the mistakes that increases your probability of success long term. [00:34:20] Allison Chantel: Yeah. And I think it's how you prove yourself as a business person through the good times and the hard. And what struck me, too, was I think you launched Pershing with about $54 million. And 50 of it came from the partner you had early in Gotham who also did the Rockefeller bid with you that ultimately wasn't successful. [00:34:37] Speaker 1: Yeah. It was Joe Steinberg, Ian Cumming of Lucadia National, gave me the $50 million. That was the difference between our launching and not. And it wasn't just the $50 million. Lucadia, they were, they are, you know, Ian is no longer, but he's passed away. But Joe Steinberg, still one of the most respected investors. So the endorsement of a brand name investor group giving us capital, obviously, is what helped us start. [00:35:03] Allison Chantel: So you've had some fantastic wins, some epic failures as well, but some of the wins I want to talk about first. General growth properties, you know, huge gamble you took, but calculated, of course, a huge outcome. Canadian Pacific Railroad, they did not give you an easy time getting on, infiltrated in the company and helping turn it around, but you did. What are the characteristics you notice when the bets have been good? What do they share and what are the things that you look for when you're going to decide to kind of put your chips in? [00:35:32] Speaker 1: I think the most important thing for us initially is that the underlying business is a good, ideally great business. I think that's really important. And each of the cases you mentioned were cases where a otherwise great business fell upon kind of hard times. And we were in a pretty unique position to help the company address its various problems. You know, general growth. [00:35:49] Allison Chantel: Sometimes by force. Well, you know, the-- [00:35:51] Speaker 1: Or highly encouraging. The world has changed in terms of the receptivity of companies to ideas from, that didn't come from the boardroom or from management. You know, when I entered this business, you know, boards would-- if not invented here, you know, they didn't want to hear about it. And I think the-- and we played a role and others have done the same in really restoring the balance of power between owners of-- the shareholders of companies and the managers and the boards that oversee them. The whole history of shareholder activism, I think, has done that. The big opportunity we've had in many cases, we've really done two things that have driven a lot of value. Cases where the shareholders have kind of given up on management. And general growth, the stock was down 99.5%, right? The company had debt it couldn't refinance. And every other public bankruptcy of consequence, the shareholders lost all their money. We bought from people selling because they rationally believed that this would be no different. We bought 25% of the company. I was able to get on the board. It wasn't easy. Goldman Sachs actually was advising against it. Got on the board of directors of the company and then led a restructuring where all of the creditors got their money back. Par plus accrued interest. Chipotle was a food safety crisis and management was really having a tough time dealing with it. And we bought 10%. We were invited to join the board. We convinced Steve Ells, then CEO, to step up the chair and recruited Brian Nickel, a great CEO. So a big part of our success has come from stocks really beaten down because they've screwed up, perhaps, or bad things or otherwise happen. And we can come in and make changes to management strategy, cost structure, capital structure. I would say more recent days, we've made a lot of money in cases where the market has just overreacted to something that we think has a short-ish term impact. You know, as markets have become shorter term, people sell stocks and they can drop dramatically in value and that creates the opportunity for us to buy them. We don't really need to make, you know, we bought a big stake in Hilton when the market responded to kind of negative macro effects. It was run by Chris Nassetta, still is today. And he's by far the best, you know, operator in the hotel industry. Hilton is the dominant company. I think no one would argue those facts, but the stock was still incredibly cheap because of inherent short-termism. So I think part of our strategy, you know, Microsoft, we're buying, we believe, at a very attractive price. You know, Amazon, you know, one of the most dominant, obviously, retailers in the world and dominant cloud companies in the world. And when the president introduced tariffs, you know, stock was, you know, obliterated. So the volatility of markets creates opportunities, not just for investors like us, but for retail investors. Because retail investors, you know, as long as they're putting aside enough money to live on, they can also have permanent capital. They can say, look, this is what I'm gonna invest in markets. And they can, they're not exposed to the, you know, someone pulling their money. And so they can buy when others are selling. And again, the, you don't want to be a lemming in markets. You want to be in the person looking in the other direction. I mean, you, it might make sense to run. Okay. But you, you should reassess, you should look at the facts and then make a kind of emotionally independent decision. [00:38:49] Allison Chantel: To me, another thing that stands out is you really look at governance structures. And I've heard you say, you know, like when a company is failing, it's often the board's fault, not necessarily even the CEO. Although sure the CEO is a decision maker within, but it's really the board has responsibility. What do you think makes up a really strong board? And is there anyone that you're like, God, I want them on my board every time. They're so good. What are the characteristics? [00:39:11] Speaker 1: You want some people on the board who actually really understand the industry. You don't, you don't want a board of railroad, entirely railroad executives on a railroad company, because then they're going to constantly, you know, second guess the CEO. You don't want that, but you want some domain expertise. I would say most importantly, you want people who are prepared to speak the truth and, and to do so directly to the CEO, uh, without regard to worrying about whether they're going to keep their seat on the board. You know, there are lots of examples of, uh, and I've experienced them even recently where people will say things outside the boardroom, but in prime time in the boardroom, they're afraid to challenge the CEO because you know, the, this part of their career is dependent on them staying on boards. And they know the next board they're being considered for. The CEO is going to check with this guy and say, Hey, is he a good, see a good director. Right. And, um, a bad CEO will, we'll say a good director is one who's never going to challenge anything. I have to say, it's just going to support what I want. And what you really want is you want people who are going to challenge you. And, and we've tried to do that. And, you know, from the Pershing square board, um, we have five independent directors and we pick people who we had confidence would tell us what they actually believed. And who has skin in the game. And who has skin in the game. All of our directors are, are meaningful shareholders in, in the company. So I think you want skin in the game. I think you want people with, you know, very good experience, good judgment, all the obvious intelligence, you know, character. Um, but I think most importantly, they can't be shy. [00:40:33] Allison Chantel: You had two IPOs recently of your own. Yes. Congratulations. Thank you. Um, I wanted to ask you about the process of taking those public and why, what, how's it built into your long-term strategy? I know you, you've followed the Buffett playbook. You've said, you know, Warren Buffett had a great 60 year career and I want to best him. So how does this all fit in and what was that process like? [00:40:52] Speaker 1: So Pershing square is a asset management business. Some people call it an alternative asset management business. So one of the companies we took public is Pershing square, Pershing square Inc, right? The business of, of managing money. And it has, it's a company that has pretty unique attributes when you compare it to other asset managers. And that effectively all 98% of our capital is in public companies. Uh, in many cases where we're the largest, the employees of Pershing square are the largest shareholders. And what that does for us is it gives us what, what Mr. Buffett would call permanent capital. Um, you know, Berkshire is a corporation. When people want their money, they sell the Berkshire shares, but the capital stays in the enterprise. And Mr. Buffett's done a remarkable job investing that money kind of over time. The business of asset management very often conflicts with the investment of assets. It's sort of this interesting kind of paradox. Many times the best time to invest capital. And we've made a lot of money being able to invest at a time when people want their money out of the market. You know, this, you know, human beings, you know, were, uh, if you go back to caveman days, right? You know, the, when the, when, uh, everyone was running in that direction, you probably should be running in that direction. Cause something very bad was coming, right? The herd mentality thing saved a lot of lives in, in economics or in markets. The herd mentality has cost you a lot of money. [00:42:05] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:42:05] Speaker 1: So you very often you want to be looking at a direction, but it's very hard to do so. If the capital that you manage is coming from people that where they can redeem it when the herd is, is running in a certain direction. So we've built a business model around capital that can't leave the system. And that's given us an advantage and it allows us, you know, the, the vast majority of hedge fund capital today. And many other investors in the markets is very short term. If you think about the pod shops, you know, the more famous ones, the Citadels, Millenniums, they've made a lot of money. Um, but with not by betting on future of an enterprise, you know, over the next decade, betting on a stock price, you know, over the next 90 days. Um, and, uh, that's not that interesting to me. You know, we like helping companies become more successful and that's a, you know, many, many year, uh, process. And it's very important to have assets that match liabilities. Now, Pershing Square, why did we take the management company public? The answer is, I think we want the business to exist well beyond the existing, you know, I'd like it to survive me. And, uh, the public markets are, are a way to increase the likelihood that a business survives for the very long term. So it was not a liquidity event, you know, no employee received any cash as part of this. And in fact, I actually invested in the IPO, you know, after the stock, uh, started trading, but we set up the business so that I think it has a higher likelihood of existing forever. Uh, and also we've done it at a time where unlike it's not at a trillion dollar valuation, there's still plenty of room for, for kind of growth. The other company we took public was another permanent capital vehicle, a U S one called Pershing Square USA. I would say our failure here to date is we haven't done a good job telling the world about it, but it is, I would argue one of the best opportunities, uh, certainly in the hedge fund space. It's a liquid hedge fund, uh, that has an excellent, uh, you know, 19% compounded record for the last, you know, 22 years. And it's the, it charges the lowest fees of any hedge fund in the world. A 2% fee typical hedge fund might be 2% plus 20% of the profits every year trading as a result of our not having done a good job marketing yet. Although that's going to be a full court press for us at about a 20 plus percent discount to the underlying value of the assets. So if you like Uber today at $71 a share, you like it more at a 20% discount to that price, you can buy Uber in effect through this vehicle. So we're going to be announcing earnings in mid August. And as part of that, we're going to take people through the portfolio or logic. Um, but I think that's an interesting company, but the, the thesis behind doing two IPOs is, uh, as an incentive to invest in this new permanent capital vehicle, we gave people for free a piece of the management company. [00:44:35] Allison Chantel: Bill's success didn't come without setbacks. In the mid 2010s, a series of high profile misplaced bets, including investments in Valiant Pharmaceuticals, a nutrition company, Herbalife, erased billions, marking one of the toughest stretches in his career. But Bill helped orchestrate a multi-billion dollar comeback, fueled in part by profitable COVID-19 credit hedges and a record breaking unsecured personal loan from JPMorgan Chase. So it hasn't all been roses. And there was a two and a half year period where it really looked like you were, you were done. You were toast. And for the people who work here, it might've felt the same. I don't know. It seems like it was a scary time. First there was Valiant Pharmaceuticals. Uh, and then there was Herbalife and Carl Icahn. And all the while you're dealing with a serious personal situation and going through a divorce. Your mind is spinning. You're thinking like, oh my God, am I going to lose all my money? Could I even wind up in jail somehow? You know, I haven't done anything illegal, but like, could it all amount to that? Can you walk me through that period of your life that I don't, how do you dig yourself out of something that sounds so deep? [00:45:42] Speaker 1: Everything was going along swimmingly, at least in the business. Um, and, but we made a large investment, a passive investment in a company called Valiant Pharmaceuticals. And we had avoided healthcare and pharmaceuticals, really the entire firm. But we had gotten to know this management team in connection with the previous transaction where he made a lot of money, built confidence in the management team. Turned into a disastrous investment. There were actually questionable business practices that emerged and things you could certainly criticize management for. And they had constructed a business that was not sufficiently robust. They used too much leverage in their, in their business model. And we were a passive shareholder, but I made the decision to join the board and try to fix the problem. The right answer probably would have been to sell. But by joining the board, it became, now it became on our watch. But when you have a event like that, investors didn't actually initially kind of pull their money. But after, you know, 18 months of still dealing with that problem, and then the Herbalife, you know, short, you know, people started redeeming their capital. And again, to the point of, I made it at really the beginning of the show, so to speak, you know, a manager is only as good as his investors. Once investors start heading for the hills, there is a bit of a lemming effect. Investors like, look, I don't want to be the last man standing. And so you find yourself in a run of the bank, you know, type situation. And where you're sort of forced to sell things. People expect that you're going to be selling. So your stocks are going down, which hurts your performance. And you're a bit of a, I wouldn't quite call it a death spiral, but I'd say something pretty close, particularly for a concentrated manager. And so how do we deal with that? Well, about a third of our capital was in this permanent capital vehicle, Pershing Square Holdings. We had basically $4 billion in Pershing Square Holdings, even at the bottom being down 30 or so percent. And I said, look, if all of the investor capital leaves and our open-ended funds, now we have permanent capital. We'll have 100% permanent capital. It's a much better base to build a building off of. So I brought all the employees together and I said, look, it's not permanent capital simply because it's a public company. It's permanent capital only when you own enough of the stock. So this was the time where I decided to borrow some money, which I did. Quite a bit. I borrowed $300 million. [00:47:50] Allison Chantel: It was the biggest personal unsecured loan ever granted to an individual by JP Morgan. [00:47:56] Speaker 1: I believe that's the case. And I used that plus some capital I took out of the hedge fund to buy enough of a stake of our public vehicle so that it became permanent capital. And then I called all the employees together and I said, we are better positioned today than at any time in our history. We have the holy grail. We have permanent capital. All we need to do is stick to our core principles, work hard, and we're going to compound our way out of this mess. And then we also have to treat all our investors fairly. Everyone wants their money. You can have their money. [00:48:24] Allison Chantel: And did you really believe that? Did you believe? [00:48:26] Speaker 1: 100% believe that. And it was true. And while we were a much smaller firm, at the peak we had, I think, $18 billion or so of capital. And we were down to, with all the money going back to our investors who could redeem, we had $4 billion of capital. And, you know, and that was the bottom. And we've made a huge amount of, we've had the best eight years in our history since that time. And we were able to run the business much more efficiently because we didn't have to have armies of people constantly raising money. Without the distractions of, you know, most people in our industry, the CEO spends a lot of time out there raising capital. John Gray is an amazing CEO at Blackstone, great investor, but spends an awful lot of time having to meet with investors. You know, Buffett, I think, made the decision to get out of the business of managing hedge funds because he didn't want to be in the investor relations business all day. And so that was a critical kind of junction. And how I got through it personally was, you know, my little mantra is you just need to make a little progress every day. The bottom, you feel like you're never going to get out and progress doesn't appear kind of quickly. You know, the progress of daily compounding and make a 1% progress every day, you know, adds up very quickly. And, you know, they, they start out with a very small slope and then they, you know, go vertical after a certain point in time. And that happens in your personal life and your business life, as long as you make a little progress every day. So that's what I did. [00:49:49] Allison Chantel: Missing from the story though, is your, I want to say arch nemesis, but Carl Icahn, who bet against what you were making in Herbalife and kind of squeezed you into this tough position where you had to sell assets you do want to sell and ultimately borrow $300 million. I wouldn't blame all that on Carl. [00:50:04] Speaker 1: Yeah. What we had there is first of all, Pershing was never really in the business of shorting stocks. We did make some bets against companies using credit default swaps, which is a much better instrument. And we said, look, we can prove that this is a pyramid scheme. The government investigate. How can this not be a good short investment? Well, Carl basically took the other side of the trade, bought a billion dollars worth of stock. [00:50:24] Allison Chantel: And you guys had a TIF before that, right? Where you actually told him F you? [00:50:27] Speaker 1: I did, but it was, when I told him that it was appropriate. The only two words are appropriate. We can get into that. But I had another, I had other dealings with him where I would say we were on the winning side of dealings. He did not keep his word. We had to sue him. We ended up winning. It took eight years. And afterwards he said, Bill, you know, now we can be friends. And that's when I used the term that you described. And I guess that upset him. And so we kind of sat in the weeds looking for a moment. And when we had a big short position in Herbalife, he knew nothing about the company, but figured, okay, I'll buy a bunch of the stock. I'll force a short squeeze, which ultimately he was successful at doing so. You know, when the Valiant thing happened, that put more pressure on the firm. And that's when, you know, the pressure of being short of stock with Carl aggressively on the other side. So it was challenging days, but we're out of the business of short selling, so we'll never do that again. And have you buried the hatchet? And we have, yeah, we did. We, I guess you could say we hugged it out way back when. It's still not my first choice for a business partner, I would say. [00:51:30] Allison Chantel: Yeah, fair enough. You had a lot of lessons learned coming out of that period. And actually in your office is a little stone that's on, I see, on a lot of the desks here that has some rules of the road. And I've heard you say, you wrote them down so that you would never stray. And if you tried to stray, someone should hit you over the head with a baseball bat because it's going to be a bad idea. [00:51:50] Speaker 1: Well, hit me up with the little tombstones. It's actually quite heavy. [00:51:53] Allison Chantel: Yeah. Could you talk through what did you decide your values were going to be that you were to rebuild Pershing under? [00:51:58] Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't a values-based chart. We've always kept to our values. It was more an investment checklist. Things we're going to do and things we're not going to do. And it's really about business quality. Here are the characteristics we're looking for in a business. And, you know, here are things that we're not going to do. And it's actually very helpful in life to have checklists. [00:52:14] Allison Chantel: At the end of the day, Bill believes a great company is built by a great team. He has fostered a company culture of in-person work made more appealing by hiring good personality fits as well as attractive in-office benefits. Compensation at Pershing is tied to how one's overall portfolio performs, not individual eat-what-you-kill P&Ls. And because the relatively slim staff has meaningful equity in the company, Bill says few people have left out of dissatisfaction. And so now the firm is about 48 people. I understand there's a culture, too, to which, you know, you're in office every day except for two months of the year. I'm curious how you're building the firm for a team that rallies around the mission that is here for the long term. You said this is a longevity play for you here at Pershing Square. You want to go beyond your time. How are you building the culture of the firm to pick these bets? [00:53:03] Speaker 1: Sure. So first of all, I'm a big in-the-office believer. So it's actually five days a week, you know, 10 months of the year. The summer, actually, the investment team all co-locates. The investment team is all in an office out east, as they say, in Bridgehampton. But the rest of the firm, you have a choice. You can come into the office or you can work from home unless there's something really important going on where we need to bring everyone in. Like this. I guess so, yes. So I think that's worked well. In terms of culture, it really starts with the people you recruit. Kind of big believer in only hiring people of the highest character, you know, human qualities. People you want to hang out with, spend time with. You're going to spend more time in the office. Spend more time with the people you work with very often than people that you, you know, your kids are in school. You know, you see them more, even the little kids, you see them more in the evenings, maybe the weekends. You can spend more time, more likely spend more time with people in the office. So you want to choose who those people are. There are a lot of super talented people. But when you combine a super talented person with great human qualities, that's a great base to build a great culture. So very careful about the people we bring in here. We always take a very long-term approach. And even the model, you know, the typical asset management firm and typical hedge fund is much more short-term oriented in how compensation works. Much more eat what you kill, sort of individual P&Ls, people working to get their own idea in the portfolio. Here it's always based on how the overall portfolio does. So there are no individual P&Ls. And one of the things I've conveyed repeatedly over time is this firm is not successful. From the time you walk into the office, you have a positive impression by the women you meet at the front, the way the office looks. You know, Isabelle, who helps clean the space during the day, you know, she's an important part of the organization. And, you know, whether it's accounting or finance, technology, you know, legal, it's a watch, you know, very carefully wound watch where if any part breaks, it stops. And so I think everyone here feels accurately that they're a big contributor to our success. And the result is we can accomplish an enormous amount. Most firms with 35 billion of assets don't have 48 people, particularly firms where, you know, we have a lot of public assets. So we do the accounting for multiple public companies. You might have a 40-person accounting finance team in a typical public company, perhaps just dealing with all the issues or legal and compliance issues associated with that. We're able to operate much more efficiently. And when we went public, everyone here is a shareholder. And, you know, there's not a person at Pershing Square that doesn't own, you know, multiple millions of dollars of stock in the company, whether you're the, you know, clean the space or at the front desk or another role in the company. So we, you know, believe in taking care of our people and we take care of people from a health perspective. We've got a very strong health orientation. You know, we have beautiful offices, you know, we like everything from the way we filter the air to the nature of the food we serve in the, in the, in the cafe, to the access to the gym, to healthcare. And, you know, we look after people. And so that, when you operate that way, you know, people don't think about going anyplace else. And, you know, we've not, since we've, you know, really the last decade, we've not had one person, an undesired departure from the firm. And that's very unusual in our industry. [00:56:35] Allison Chantel: Yeah. You had those milestones for yourself growing up, right? It's like, by 30, I'm going to do this, 40, 50. [00:56:40] Speaker 1: It was an offhand comment to my dad. But still, now you're 60. It's actually very helpful to set targets in life. Yeah. [00:56:47] Allison Chantel: So where are your targets going now? You're done with the old targets. What are the new targets, 60, 70, 80, beyond? Yeah. [00:56:52] Speaker 1: So one, you've got to start focusing on longevity. So I've been, you know, personally interested in, you know, just staying healthy. [00:56:59] Allison Chantel: No sugar, no alcohol. I understand. [00:57:01] Speaker 1: Yeah. Pretty close to zero. You know, I want, I want to be around for my family, kids. I have a daughter who's, you know, seven years old. So, you know, when I'm 80, she'll be 27. You know, you want to be around a long time. And then of course it helps on impact. It helps on investing, right? And why is Buffett one of the greatest investors of all time? Well, he's, he's done a good job. He's also lived a long time and he stayed at it. [00:57:25] Allison Chantel: For anyone who wants to have a career where they feel like it's big, but they don't know how to do it. Is there anything that you would say? [00:57:32] Speaker 1: Well, I think this is the, the era in which you can learn anything and you don't actually have to read books now. You can just ask your AI to teach you whatever it is that you need to learn. And so I think we are going to transform the two obvious things that will be transformed by AI, our education and healthcare, right? There, there's no better doctor today probably than the, than a frontier AI model. You have a symptom. Good friend of mine, his father had some symptom. The hospital couldn't figure out what it was. And he was approaching, you know, bad, really bad outcome. He put everything into, you know, chat GPT. And they said, well, you know, does he have some, some infectious disease? And it turns out what he had. So I would go there first. And it's cheaper and takes less work than going to see a doctor. So. [00:58:22] Allison Chantel: I think one of the things that we're watching or I'm watching closely too, is if you really think AI is as transformative or as big, really an invention as even electricity. Like, it's not like electricity is a business. What is actually the business model? I feel like that's still a little bit remains to be seen. Anthropic is trying to corner the market and enterprise space is clear. OpenAI is trying to do that as well and also create a device. But some of these business models, it's not like Amazon where it's like, okay, this is e-commerce. We get what this is. This is kind of a new frontier and a lot of money in the meantime. [00:58:53] Speaker 1: I think the model is how much intelligence do you get per token or per, you know, dollar of investment and then what, what you can do with that intelligence. Now the, the, the challenge for the frontier models is as we've seen as recently as this last few days is this, you know, Chinese model, the Kimi model is pretty near the frontier. And it's a open weight, you know, model as opposed to this sort of closed system. And, you know, I think that's a very positive thing for humanity for more and more of these, you know, lower cost models become available to consumers. It's bringing down the cost of intelligence. I think we're heading to a world where, you know, super intelligence will be available to everyone. That's a pretty interesting world and it won't only be, yes, the absolute frontier is going to be expensive and maybe only big corporations can afford it. But for the vast majority of things you need in your life, you're not going to need the absolute frontier of super intelligence, like where to go on vacation or even a question about a medical procedure that you have coming up. These can be answered, you know, today with basically for free, you know, you go to the Google chat and put in your question, you get a free AI answer. That's very good for vast majority of things. So we're, we're a world in which intelligence is a, you know, very high level of intelligence is available basically for free. It's a pretty amazing world. [01:00:09] Allison Chantel: Bill, thank you so much for sharing what your thoughts are today on so many different topics. We really appreciate you spending the time with Fortune. [01:00:18] Speaker 1: Thank you. Really enjoyed it.